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The Stephen A. Smith Show
Interview Only: Wall Street Journal’s Eliza Collins on Harvard & Political Controversies.
00:19:22
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- [00:00]
Ryan Seacrest
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
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- [00:39]
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Host/Reporter
No purchase necessary. VGW Group void. We're prohibited by law. 21 plus terms and conditions apply. Now let's get to Washington, where yesterday a federal judge extended a temporary order that blocked the Trump administration from revoking Harvard's ability to enroll international students. The extension came after the administration said it would give the university 30 days to challenge the decision. Court documents on Wednesday's show the Department of Homeland Security asked Harvard to, quote, submit sworn statements and documents or other evidence to rebut the grounds for withdrawal of certification, end quote. Harvard enrolls students under the Federal Student and Exchange Visitor Program. Just last week, the Trump administration revoked Harvard's ability to enroll foreign students. And then hours later, a US District judge temporarily blocked that effort. Joining me now to discuss the administration's ongoing feud with Harvard University is a national political reporter for the Wall Street Journal who wrote the article the Punch that Launched Trump's War on American Universities. Please welcome to the show, Eliza Collins. Eliza, how are you? How's everything?
- [02:15]
Eliza Collins
Good. Happy to be here.
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Host/Reporter
Thank you so much. Let's get right to it. For those who have not been keeping up with the escalating feud between the Trump administration and Harvard University, Eliza, tell us, how did we get here?
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Eliza Collins
Well, it really goes back decades, but basically the conservative movement has had issues with universities for a very long time. They have felt that universities have moved leftward. I mean, we saw this with President Nixon. He actually tried to do what Trump is doing now, back with the anti war Vietnam protests. Now his own administration stopped him at that point. But this has been sort of circulating for a long time. There's been tension with conservatives and universities going back decades. Now, in Trump's first term in office, this was on the radar of some of the nationalists in his party. You might remember Steve Bannon, his former advisor, now talk show host, they were talking about this a little bit, but it really launched onto Trump's radar when a, like you said, a punch, a kid got punched. He was literally tabling, trying to recruit conservative students at UC Berkeley. He got punched in the face. He showed up on Fox News with a black eye, got in front of Trump, and Trump said, let's do something about this. So conservatives started attempting to basically take on universities. In his first term, he had an executive order that did a little bit of this, the federal funding thing, but it didn't go really anywhere. Trump ended office. And then in the four years in between, conservative think tanks, thought leaders, they started mapping this out and saying, how can we take on universities, not just Harvard, that they feel have moved to the left? The antisemitism argument that we're hearing now, that came onto the scene in 2023 after Hamas attacked Israel in October and then Israel attacked back. The Gaza protests exploded on campuses. And that was when conservatives really saw their moment. They've been sort of laying this groundwork, having tension with universities. Now they say these universities are allowing anti Semitism on campus. Trump takes office again. And we've seen this explosion that they're trying to take federal funding, they're trying to ban international students, they're trying to get rid of their tax exempt status. So they're really trying to hit them on all sides. And Harvard's fighting back in court.
- [04:42]
Host/Reporter
So essentially what you're telling us is that this isn't just about Harvard. This is about any university that the Trump administration, the conservatives, the nationalists that are associated with this administration or with the gop, their belief that there are a lot of liberal universities out there and we need to change the way our youth are being educated. Harvard is just the first stop. Is that an accurate way to depict this?
- [05:07]
Eliza Collins
It's absolutely an accurate way to depict this. Harvard has become sort of Trump's obsession. Our reporting shows because it's the richest university in the nation. So they have a lot of money. They are able to fight back. The administration has done this to other schools. We've seen Columbia, some other elite universities. They are basically negotiating with the government. They have tried to appeal to what the government is doing. Harvard is not. Harvard is saying, we are not doing, dealing with you on this. We are going to court. So it's a broader strategy from the government, you're absolutely right. To get elite universities and then ultimately they want to get down to the state level. But Harvard has become sort of this point of the spear on this.
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Host/Reporter
A day or so ago, the General Services Administration directed all federal agencies to explore ways to cut remaining contracts with the university, according to a senior administration official. Is that legal?
- [06:05]
Eliza Collins
Well, we'll find out. This is all going to end up in court, basically with the research funding in particular. Congress appropriates government funding that does not come from the president or his executive branch. And so there are a lot of questions about the government restricting funding to universities that has already been allocated. All of these different cases, the international students funding government contracts, I imagine we will see them all ultimately make it up to the Supreme Court. You talked about this international student ruling. International students can continue to enroll in Harvard for now. But there's a lot of questions really about the administration's power and how much power the president and his other agencies have.
- [06:57]
Host/Reporter
Harvard has an endowment worth about $53 billion, if I remember correctly. By far more than any other American university. One would argue why can't they tap into that as opposed to needing federal assistance or requiring federal assistance? Why would they not just tap into their own funds and be independent so they don't have to worry about needing federal dollars in order to do what they want to do? That way Trump and the administration, the nationalists or anybody else wouldn't have but so much power.
- [07:25]
Eliza Collins
Well, they might have to. And I think that's why Harvard, unlike some other universities, actually have some staying power in this fight. You know, $53 billion is an obscene amount of money. But Harvard spends a lot of money and they do have a lot of research. They've said that these government funding cuts will affect things like cancer research. And so they've become really reliant on, on the federal government, as have a lot of these elite universities for research funding. Another thing is that a lot of these universities make money from international students, because those are the students who are generally coming in, they're paying full price, they're not getting scholarships, and they're really reliant. And Harvard, I think it's about a quarter of their student body is international. That's a huge chunk. And if they can't get that money, it's not tomorrow that their funding stream runs out. But it is a big deal. If they lose their tax exempt status, then they suddenly have to start paying taxes on things like their property, which I imagine Boston area pretty expensive. So I think they spend a lot of money. They have a ton of money. It's not going to happen tomorrow. They have to do things. But there's a lot less hope for schools like maybe UC Berkeley, which is an elite state, state level institution. If their state funding gets cut off, I think it's a lot harder for them to fight back in the long term. Sorry, federal funding cut off.
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Host/Reporter
And clearly people are going to be in panic mode because you got these smaller universities that don't have that endowment base that Harvard has. And as a result of Harvard loses, okay, then everybody loses. That's their, probably their mentality. I must ask this going back to the international student body that you pointed out exists as at Harvard. Conservatives will say those are number because again, you have a lot of people that nationalist view. That's their nationalist perspective. Remember Trump? America First. America First. America First. He never said America only, but he says America first. And people in America who support him take it like America first, last and always. So with that mentality, one would ask the international student body, how does Harvard explain how such a student body is that large as opposed to more American citizens being enrolled in their universities? Do they ever try to discuss that kind of argument? Because it's certainly one that the folks on the right has made against them.
- [09:49]
Eliza Collins
Yeah, I mean, I think we've just seen the Harvard, at least in court, related to these international students. They say these students are instrumental in making Harvard. Harvard. Harvard, of course, is an elite university. So they have really smart people from around the world. They have incredible athletes. I'm not sure if they've made the exact case saying this is why we have so many. They're not the only school. Most of these Ivy League schools have large populations of international students, as do a lot of these sort of State Ivies, like a UC Berkeley or a Michigan. They've just over the years become really reliant. I'm sure a large part of it is their funding. And then of course, you know, they're bringing in smart students. Now the universe, the government, as you said, smart sort of this America first agenda. Steve Bannon told me that when he was talking about this idea in Trump 1.0, far before the conversation about antisemitism, he felt like students on American universities were becoming anti American. And so this really goes back exactly what you're saying to that nationalist idea of who's American and who is patriotic. And that is a priority for Trump.
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Host/Reporter
Any idea whether he's in good, he's in a good position or whether Harvard is in a good position. Who's got the pole position right now, as they say?
- [11:12]
Eliza Collins
You know, I'm not a legal reporter, so I can't. I can't guess. I think it's. We have reported at the Wall Street Journal that even if Harvard wins these cases, the damage, at least in some point, is done. Right. If you're an international student, yeah, you can stay right now, but are you going to come back in the fall if it could be revoked, or are you going to try to go somewhere else at home? You know, there's a lot of federal funding that's been cut off. They might get some back. But is it all going to be reimbursed, you know, at the same levels? I think there are a lot of questions, especially for people making decisions. Now, if you're a student who is supposed to go to Harvard in the fall, do you have paws? Maybe not. But especially if you're an international student, it has to be on your radar because you could be sent home at any moment.
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Host/Reporter
Any specific institutions other than Harvard that the administration has targeted in your estimation?
- [12:06]
Eliza Collins
Yeah. So we can talk about Columbia a little bit. Columbia University also got demands from the government. And basically, we should be clear, the government demands on Harvard were pretty extensive. Basically, they said they should have say over who the university hires, who the university admits, the university's curriculum. Basically, the government says, if you're receiving our money, we are. We should have a say in what happens at a university. Now, that bucks a long standing tradition of universities getting to do what they want, and that's why Harvard pushes back. Columbia had a little bit less of a list of demands, though. Basically, the government does want a say. And as someone at the DOJ described to me, they said Columbia is playing dead. Colombia is in negotiations with the government, has agreed to do some things. I know one of the requests from the government at Columbia was to ban masks. That was something that we saw students wearing during these protests to disguise their identity. Seems like Columbia agreed to that. So there's a. It's a similar situation at Columbia, though. They are negotiating with the government. Now, we know Trump is. He's obsessed with Harvard in this case, and it's really because Harvard is pushing back in a way that other schools are not. And they have so much money. So Trump feels like what you asked earlier, why do they need our money if they have so much money?
- [13:34]
Host/Reporter
I'm curious to know. If you can't answer this, I certainly understand because you're a reporter and I certainly don't want to put you in that kind of position. But I'm curious to know what level of support Trump has from the Jewish community, because in the aftermath of what you alluded to earlier with Hamas attack attacking Israel on October 7th a couple years ago. Right. What transpired thereafter. Obviously, Israel has been, you know, after Hamas, and there's a lot of Palestinians that people have been viewed as suffering tremendously. And you have pro Palestinian supporters, primarily on college campuses. They're seeing more so than any place else. And Columbia is one of those places. Harvard was another one of those places. You see Berkeley, if I remember correctly, I think was one of those places. You pointed out these kind of things. I'm wondering what role it's perceived that they're playing in pushing Trump or supporting Trump to take these positions against universities. One would argue they've supported the Jewish community, has supported for years. I don't know the answer to that question, but I think it's an appropriate question.
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Eliza Collins
Well, we can definitely say that Trump's win in November, he did better across basically every demographic group, including young people. I think it's really important to say he closed the gap with that. Biden had won young people in 2020, I think it was by like 25 points. Harris won young people by four in 2024. So young people in general of all religions were moving towards Trump. That has emboldened him. Jewish supporters, I think it's. It's a smaller group, so we haven't seen a ton of polling, but we do know that Trump's hardline approach to Hamas, strong support of Israel, did help him with Jewish, especially conservative Jews, who are pro Israel. Of course, not all Jews are, as you know, pro the current Israeli government. But those. That Jewish section of the population we've seen is more aligned with Trump. I think it's also really important to note that the frustration over Gaza, while there were a lot of progressive voices advocating for Gaza, they didn't show up for Democrats in November. And so in some ways, they actually even helped Trump, even if they didn't support him, because a lot stayed home, a lot voted third party. I live in Arizona. That's a key battleground state. We did some reporting on Arab Americans here. It was amazing how many I talked to who didn't vote at all. Arizona is a state Trump won it pretty easily this time around by 5%. But in 2020, Biden won it by 10,000 votes. So Michigan, huge Arab American population, where this was an important issue. So Trump was helped by those voters, too, even if they didn't necessarily mean to, because some of them were protesting Harris and the Biden administration's policies.
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Host/Reporter
Last couple of questions before I let you get on out of here. How soon should we anticipate a decision being made on this matter between the Trump administration and Harvard University?
- [16:48]
Eliza Collins
Well, there are several different lawsuits. And like I said, I think with Harvard and with a lot of these cases we're seeing with Trump in general on immigration, on government cuts, I mean, these are cases that are making their way through the courts and ultimately probably will end up at the Supreme Court because the Supreme Court has the final say. And these are real questions about how much power the president of the United States and his executive branch have. And so I don't know. You know, each court has to decide to take something up. They have their own timelines. The Supreme Court has all sorts of rules about when they can take cases up. So I think we're, we're months away from decisions. And of course, like that international case is one case, federal funding something else. You know, we're seeing fight over tax exempt status with the irs. I mean, there's all these different fights. So I don't think anything's going to be tied up with a bow, and certainly not all of it at once. I think we can plan for this is going to be going on for a while.
- [17:54]
Host/Reporter
Very last question to you. I've seen various conservatives even lamenting Trump's push towards this issue with Harvard because they talked about it compromising our First Amendment rights, free speech, et cetera. And so you got to wonder about that. I guess the question would be, if Trump were to win this case against Harvard and these kind of changes were to be invoked, what would that mean for universities throughout the country? What's the perception, rather, of what it would mean for those universities and for America as a whole, considering the fact that an administration in the White House could pull off such a feat?
- [18:32]
Eliza Collins
I mean, I think it would have effects that if what the government was asking to do to Harvard was have a say over who they hire, who they admit, what they research. And so if they're able to win that case, and that is implemented at universities across the country, I think we would see a major shift from how things have been for as long as the US has been around. I think it's really important to note that polling shows Americans overwhelmingly oppose cutting medical research and funding from universities, if you ask that question simply. But if you get into details and say, what about doing it for antisemitism on campuses, the issue basically evens out. So basically half and half would support funding cuts. There is a lot of polling that shows Americans feel, you know, elite universities do not represent them. They feel that college is too expensive. They feel that the value of an education degree doesn't go as far anymore. So I think not. I think I know that the administration feels they have a lot of pulling and a lot of anger at universities. But there also is that counterpolling that people do not like the idea of medical research in particular, that funding being this is of course decided in the courts, not by vote. But I think the where the American public is on this issue is important.
- [20:04]
Host/Reporter
Eliza Collins, national reporter for the Wall Street Journal, covering this particular issue with the Trump administration and Harvard University. Outstanding column just the other day in the Washington the Wall Street Journal, the punch that launched Trump's war on American universities. Eliza, thank you so much for coming on the show, taking time out of your busy schedule. I really appreciate it. It was wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much and feel free to come back anytime.
- [20:25]
Eliza Collins
Thanks. That was fun.
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Ryan Seacrest
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- [21:32]
Eliza Collins
This is an iHeart podcast.