Legendary Broadcaster Jim Ross - Part Two (SAS CLASSICS)

Summary

The Steve Austin Show – Legendary Broadcaster Jim Ross (Part Two)

Original Air Date: March 27, 2025
Podcast Host: Steve Austin
Guest: Jim Ross (“Good Ol’ JR”), Legendary Wrestling Broadcaster

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Episode Overview

In this lively “Steve Austin Show – Classics” episode, Steve Austin welcomes iconic wrestling commentator Jim Ross back for a deep dive into the golden era of wrestling, focusing primarily on the booking genius of Bill Watts, the psychology and realities of old-school wrestling, the unique approaches of major promoters like Vince McMahon and Eddie Graham, and the art of promos. With candid anecdotes and honest insights, JR and Austin break down the blue-collar toughness, business smarts, and evolving philosophies that created legends and drew money in pro wrestling. The conversation also unpacks how the industry transitioned from intimate, gritty territory shows to global entertainment, all told with their signature authenticity and wit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bill Watts: Realism, Booking, and Territory Life

[01:30 – 16:10]

• Watts’ Legacy & Psychology:
  • JR credits Bill Watts’ “realness,” stating, “He was real. He didn’t play the role. He was a bully at heart… overbearing by nature. He was extremely intelligent, high IQ. He was smarter than you, he was bigger than you, he was tougher than you.” (03:28)
  • Watts demanded legitimacy both in and outside the ring—toughness and believability were paramount.
• Mid-South Booking Style:
  • Watts handpicked large, tough opponents, starring as the superhero in his territory, writing, producing, and starring in his own “movie.” (03:39)
• Locker Room & Rules:
  • No intermingling between heels and babyfaces, even at hotels: “There was no intermingling, period. 0.” (05:14)
  • Consequences for breaking “kayfabe” were harsh—a serious professionalism was expected.

Notable Quote:

“If you as a wrestler were stupid enough to get into a bar fight and you lost the bar fight, you were fired. End of story.”
— Jim Ross, [09:37]

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2. The Toughness & Dynamics of the Old-School Locker Room

[08:51 – 16:10]

• Physicality:
  • “If you didn’t lay stuff in, you know, it was horrible. It was absolutely. He just didn’t last long. So he demanded physicality.” (10:49)
• Law of the Jungle:
  • Stories of Dr. Death Steve Williams wrestling the night after requiring 108 stitches highlight how little sympathy there was for injuries:
    • “I expect you get your ass in a car and go to Biloxi tomorrow and keep your booking. You’re going to work, you’re advertised.” (10:49)
• Making Money & Building Stars:
  • Watts’ system protected the mystique of heroes and villains, keeping heels hot and babyfaces resilient:
    • “The baby faces didn’t always win, but they never quit.”

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3. Comparing Legends: Watts, Vince, Eddie Graham & Vern Gagne

[17:35 – 32:43]

Bill Watts’ One-Hour Wrestling Show

[19:00]

• “[Watts] told every segment. There were six segments to a wrestling hour… every segment had a beginning, a middle and an end… every person in that segment had a role.”
• Obsessive perfectionism: “He fired everybody” after an unsatisfactory TV taping, only to rehire them after a cooling-off period. (20:16)

Eddie Graham (Florida)

[26:05]

• Graham was the “preeminent finish guy,” with matches and angles that always made sense to all demographics.
• “He would make you believe it was real, reality based. It wasn’t a scripted reality show… the finishes were the same.” (26:18)
• Many booking greats, including Dusty Rhodes and Bill Watts, learned from Graham.

Vern Gagne (AWA)

[29:39]

• Stagnation and refusal to adapt were Gagne’s undoing:
  • “Byrne didn’t really get into the… he didn’t modernize his business, he didn’t keep up with current times. And I think that’s what really essentially killed him.”
• Talent would leave for WWF, where the money and opportunity were greater.

Vince McMahon’s Vision & Adaptability

[34:03 – 40:56]

• “That’s fine, Ted, because I’m in the entertainment business.” (Vince to Ted Turner; 34:41)
• Vince’s innovations: bigger venues, TV production value, crowd lighting, music, sets, mingling with mainstream celebrities.
• Embraced calculated risks and adapted to change—what separated him from promoters stuck in traditional ways.
• Promoters “killed their own business” by not innovating: “McMahon was just smart enough to see what was going on and take advantage…” (25:21)
• “He just stays ahead of the curve… nobody compares to him as far as vision is concerned.” (37:04)

Notable Exchange:

Steve Austin: “I want the focus on that product in the ring.”
Jim Ross: “Yeah… along the way, you can lose your way and take your eye off what happens bell to bell. I get that. But as far as the presentation and the vision, nobody’s ever come close to McMahon as far as having a vision for building a brand.”
[36:53–37:04]

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4. Humor in Wrestling: Where’s the Line?

[41:40 – 44:49]

• Comedy is a “hard” art form in wrestling.
• “Only if the talent has the chops to pull it off.”
• Watts would not tolerate humor unless it fit the organic moment or specific character—seriousness always trumped forced comedy:
  • “If heels tried to be too funny on their promos and weren’t menacing… he’d shut them down and cut and lecture and cuss everybody out would start over.” (41:41)
• Dick Murdoch, a talented worker with comedic flair, was only allowed humor selectively.

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5. The Art of the Promo

[44:49 – 51:50]

• JR on Structure:
  • “Every promo’s got to have structure… hot start, meaty middle… and a hell of a go home line.”
  • “The best promos are the ones where a talent can be himself or herself… I have to believe that you’re telling me you’re sincere.”
• Austin on Promos:
  • “Most of my stuff was all off the cuff… But when it comes down to nut cutting time, I didn’t have to worry that I knew that Stone Cold was telling me what he believed in his heart.”
  • Spontaneity, sincerity, and responding in the moment were keys to Austin’s legendary promos.

Memorable Quotes:

“If I think that you’re bullshitting me, then I am tuning you out. I might hear you, but I’m not listening to you. And when the audience stops listening to a promo, they hear it… but they’re not listening. You lost them.”
— Jim Ross, [45:26]

“As Stone Cold Steve Austin, 100% of the time out there, I believed 120% everything I was doing was real deal.”
— Steve Austin, [51:50]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Bill Watts Era:
  • “He wrote the movie, he produced the movie, he starred in the movie. And he was a superhero in his own territory.”
    — Jim Ross, [03:39]
• On Locker Room Survival:
  • “It was the law of the jungle, man.”
    — Jim Ross, [10:49]
• On Vince’s Evolution:
  • “He ingratiated himself with mainstream entertainment… it made his promotion cool.”
    — Jim Ross, [37:00]
• On What Makes a Promo Work:
  • “You gotta have structure. You gotta be real in the moment… If I think you’re bullshitting me, I’m tuning you out.”
    — Jim Ross, [45:26]
• On Being True:
  • “I always believed in me… being a chubby, Southern accent guy, I was going to be challenged to make it on a national level… But that wasn’t my calling. And I wouldn’t change the damn thing…”
    — Jim Ross, [49:08]

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Important Timestamps

• Bill Watts’ Psychology & Early Booking: 02:12 – 05:14
• Mid-South Rules & Locker Room Stories: 05:14 – 10:46
• Toughness & Physicality in Territories: 10:49 – 16:10
• Promoters & Booking Styles: 17:35 – 32:43
• Vince McMahon’s Innovations: 34:03 – 40:56
• The Limits of Humor in Wrestling: 41:40 – 44:49
• Promo Structure and Sincerity: 44:49 – 51:50

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in wrestling history and psychology, wrestling’s evolution from blood-and-guts Southern territories to international “sports entertainment.” Jim Ross and Steve Austin dissect what made great promoters, great babyface and heel psychology, and why authenticity—whether in the ring, as a promoter, or when behind the mic—is the one timeless draw in the business. Their exchanges are packed with vivid stories, humor, and hard-won wisdom for fans and aspiring wrestlers alike.

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Next Episode Preview:
Steve promises that JR will return, with a deeper dive into the art of the promo, “drawing money,” getting “hired, fired, rehired, and fired again,” and more stories from the road.

Transcript

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[Steve Austin Show Announcer]

Podcast 1 presents the Steve Austin Show.

[Steve Austin]

Classics heels with heat, baby faces that are over and cash registers that are full of money. I've been kind of following the Fishbone interviewing Jim Ross because the guy's got such a damn history in the business. I'm trying to cover the highs and lows and everything in between. Here's what it's all going to boil down to. I always tell you guys exactly like it is. I'm going to have to bring Jim Ross on for some more episodes of the Steve Austin show because right now I'm going to get off his page. Right now I'm just going to talk purely wrestling, booking, angles, psychology and promoters with Jim Ross. Anyway, without any further ado, Jim, welcome back to the show. Let's talk about Bill Watts and the magic of his booking and his psychology.

[Jim Ross]

Well, the first thing Steve, you know, cowboy was a great psychologist. He was a big athlete. He headlined the Garden. By his third year in the business, Bruno Sammartino took Bill under his wing. They became tag team partners. The inevitable turn where Bill Became a villain occurred. They had three main events in a garden, which at that time was very unusual. And so Bill had a. Bill got over. And then when he got over in New York, thanks to Bruno and those matches and Bill's pro mobility, you know, here's a 6 3, 300 pound baby face turned heel. Then all the other promoters got word that this big guy is young and just starting a business and he's headlining the Garden. Watts got bookings in all the major territories of the top guy right away.

[Steve Austin]

Was it about Bill Watts that got him over? Man? I mean, when I saw Bill on tv, he was over with me too. Tough guy. Told it like it was. Now, of course I didn't know at the time, but he was booking the place, he owned the territory. So what he said was law. And it always went down like he did. But what did he bring to the table back in the day? Because I didn't see, you know, what he was doing when he started. What enabled him to get over reality.

[Jim Ross]

He was real. He didn't play the role. He was a bully at heart. He was overbearing by nature. He was extremely intelligent, high iq. He was smarter than you, he was bigger than you, he was tougher than you. And he could prove it in any deal. He could prove it at the boardroom, he could prove it in a wrestling mat, he could prove it on the football field. He was a two sport recruited athlete at Oklahoma back in the day when they were roaring in the late 50s. He was real in the sense that he was a tough guy. But he brought that to the ring. He brought realness to the ring and he demanded the realness in the ring from the guys. If you weren't a tough guy, legit, you know, then you probably weren't going to make it in the mid south very long. And when he got a chance to buy into McGurk's territory, he got rid of all the office stooges. He got rid of all the small guys except Hodge. And he started bringing in super heavyweights. He brought in the spoiler, he brought in big heels. Murdoch, Dick Murdoch was another one. They brought in big heels because Bill was the star, the baby face. He wrote the movie, he produced the movie, he starred in the movie. And he was a superhero in his own territory. And he brought his own villains in to work with him. Hand picked. And so that's how that all started. That's how I got successful. The older he got, he wanted to back out of the ring. And so he, he booked the territory. In his image. And he still played the same brand of football that he always coached. He coached the same brand he played.

[Steve Austin]

What kind of guy was he to work for? Did he have a bunch of rules or what?

[Jim Ross]

Oh, he was a hard ass. And I talked to him a couple of days ago. Last Sunday. Well, it wouldn't be last Sunday now, but first Sunday in May at his 74th birthday. And he's living down in the panhandle of Florida, life of luxury. And he saved his money. And that was one of the things he taught me was, you know, it ain't what you make kid, it's what you save. And I know it sounds cliche as hell, but it's bottom line in the money. If you bottom line the money, then it ain't about what you gross, it's about what you save. Because both you and I both know a lot of guys that made a lot of money that still ain't paid their IRS bill. They still can't even buy a house because they got IRS debts. And it's embarrassing and it's sad, but it's the truth. Bill was a different breed of cat in that regard. He had annuities, he had financial planning done, and all that stuff I got to be a part of learning at a very, very young age. But he wanted to book the territory in his vision and his belief. He did a lot of patriotic angles that played easily because they're easy to understand. We had Russians and Germans and Japanese and all these things, and he loved that. And people are all, you know, you have to know your audience. You know, you've heard Vince told you this before, and he's told me this a million times. You got to know your audience, J.R. steve, you got to know your audience. And so Bill understood his audience. It was the Southern culture. It was Oklahoma, it was Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, South Texas, Houston, Beaumont area. And he knew his audience. He knew what they were. They knew they were patriotic, and they were just blue collar son of a guns. And he knew what pushed the right buttons. So he got a crew together of tough guys, and he got a crew together of believable, athletic guys that had the aptitude for his teachings. And Bill had lots of rules. You know, we did TV in Shreveport. I mentioned on the last show, every Wednesday we did promos, but every other Wednesday we did two hours of tv, two one hour shows. Well, there were two primary hotels that the boys stayed at. There was one hotel that had all the baby faces could stay at if they wanted to, but they couldn't. Stay. They could stay anywhere they wanted as long as there wasn't any heels already checked in. If all the boys stayed and got a raid at another hotel, which. Which they did. Back in the territory days, they were designated either the Heel Hotel or the Bay Face Hotel. And there was no intermingling, period. 0.

[Steve Austin]

What happened if you intermingled?

[Jim Ross]

No intermingling, man. You know, that's like the time I left the goddamn gate open on the dog pen and my dad's prize pointed bird dog got in heat, and one of her male pups we were raising got into the dog pen and bred the mother, she had pups, and she had nine puppies, and they were inbred, and they were selling for $15 apiece when my dad was making about $100 a week and I ruined the whole crop because I didn't shut the goddang gate. So guess who, at 12 years of age got nine puppies thrown in a toe sack and handed a hammer and told them to take them to the dump and destroy them? That'd be me. My dad raised me. There was no intermingling. And that was another lesson learned, you know, Keep your commitments and shut the damn gate on the Damn dog pen. Dr. Phil would have a. That'd be a rating sweep week for me on that show. That would be a little stiff.

[Steve Austin]

Let's talk about the crew. Talk about assembling the crew. And he brought in a bunch of tough guys. The business has changed a lot, you know, from today's locker room to that locker room. Now, obviously, we both still love the business. I don't have an axe to grind about the current crop of superstars, but back in the day, it was all about the real deal. And this is before all the exposes on 2020. The Geraldo Riveros, the John Stossels. How was that locker room, man? I mean, because, you know, a lot of times when you. When you come in to get a spot, you damn near had to whip a son of bitch's ass to get that spot on many occasions. What was it? What was the atmosphere like in those back. And what was the atmosphere like in those days with the competitive environment that it was. Because, man, this wasn't no guaranteed money.

[Jim Ross]

I can answer that question with one rule that he had. If you as a wrestler were stupid enough to get into a bar fight and you lost the bar fight, you were fired. End of story. There was no compromise. There was no, well, let me get a second chance. If you went into a bar, you went into a bar where There was a bunch of drunk alpha males and they wanted to take on with phony pro wrestler. And you as a wrestler got your ass whipped. And it got out, which it would because you know, telephone telegraph tele wrestler. A wrestler that. That had more to gain by you leaving would be sure and tell Bill that so and so got his ass whipped at the bar in Alexandria, Louisiana. What. And so that guy would be giving his notice and it might let you move up the card. So the telling on somebody for their indiscretions in that respect was commonplace. So the bottom line of it is that you better be able to handle yourself. If you're going to go into a bar and have a beer and the guns are drawn, so to speak, you better be able to shoot first and shoot the most accurate. Because you lost a fight, you're fired.

[Steve Austin]

Who were some of the major players back in the day?

[Jim Ross]

It was the law of the jungle, man. He believed in that. And he didn't believe in guys sitting out because they were injured. Hell, Steve Williams got. Dr. Death got. Was working with Brad Armstrong one night and you know, you hear all these wives tales and I was there and I saw it so I know it to be true. But Doc didn't duck on a. On a. On a forearm. And Brad caught Doc in the eye with his elbow. And he had. Doc had 108 stitches put in his eye, all around his eye from an ophthalmologist. Had to sew him up. Well, this all happened on the next night. The boys were booked in Biloxi and Doc was kind of green. He said, bill, what do you want me to do tomorrow? And Bill, and this is after Doc had come back from the emergency room and his eye was swell shut, had 108 stitches. This is all fact. Bill said, I expect you get your ass in a car and go to Biloxi tomorrow and keep your booking. You're going to work, you're advertised. So that was the toughness that was demonstrated in that territory. And you know, we had a bunch of tough guys, you know, JYD was more. He was the biggest star the Mid south ever had, bar none of the. But he wasn't somebody you trifle with. He wasn't Benny Hodge level of an amateur, but he was a pretty tough, tough guy. But Jim Duggan, Butch Reed, Dick Slater, you know Murdoch, Murdoch take your head off. Paul Orndorff fight you to drop the hat. And the big cat earned lad. People didn't want to cross her any lady. So those are the kind of guys that were the nucleus of the Mid south territory. You know, Jim Duggan, my God, there wasn't no tougher guy than Jim Duggan. I just got through voicing over a match that WWE's putting out a Mid South DVD in September. And I did about eight hours worth of voiceovers and matches that were taped but never aired on television. They were handheld taped, no commentary. So I did all the commentary by myself. And one of the matches was Buzz Sawyer against Jim Duggan in a street fight in the downtown municipal auditorium in New Orleans. And I literally thought that I was watching a UFC fight because they beat the shit out of each other. I mean it was, it was disturbing, it was uncomfortable to call it because I knew what was going on. And one hit the other hard and so the guy kind of half assed smile and retaliate. Here come the receipt. Well, there was receipt after receipt after receipt and that's an illustration of what's going to be on that dvd. But that was Bill's territory. It was physical, you know, if you didn't lay stuff in, you know, it was horrible. It was absolutely. He just didn't last long. So he demanded physicality. He wanted the heels got most of the. The TVs are heel oriented when you let the air. His goal was to have the fans pissed off and wanting to pay money to see that heel get his ass whipped in the live arena. The baby faces didn't always win, but they never quit. And that's what I tell young guys now as a baby face you can get over if the people believe in you and you don't quit on them, you learn to settle your head up, you know, keep that fight going. And at the end if you lose the battle, you didn't quit. As long as the fans think you're not a quitter, they probably won't give up on you that quick. So that was Bill's whole deal. You lose a fight in a bar, you're out. He didn't get on the baby faces who were married for not being friendly enough with the female patrons. And they find out, well, so and so had a chance to walk out of this bar with all this, the hottest girl in the bar and take her to his room. And he didn't do it. Well, I've seen Bill chew guys ass out because he didn't follow through with what the baby faces the heroes are supposed to be doing was making the women happy. He was a strange cat, but that was the old school. But back in that era, Steve, that wasn't really Unusual for Gandhi was the same way Eddie Graham was the same way. A lot of those old time promoters, Roy Shire and Frisco, same way you didn't intermingle with your opponents. The baby faces did their extracurricular duties and the heels went into bars and sometimes went into bars to get into a fight to make a little newspaper headline that they got arrested for beating the hell out of somebody, a truck driver or a biker or whatever. It was a whole different lay of the land. But the world is different. Like you said, I'm not knocking the guys today, but kids are raised different. Guys are getting in the business in a different way than they used to. So it was. But he was, that was his deal. The Heat, the babyfaces got the, they got their hand, they got their comeuppance at the blow off when you had the final, final match, which for us is generally in the Superdome where WrestleMania is going to be next year. We're running it for years, 30 years the Superdome was, has been a site for different wrestling events. That's when the babyface finally prevailed at the end of the journey. And if you stuck with him as a fan, he didn't quit at the end of the journey. At the last stand, when the chips are down, the hero won the war.

[Steve Austin]

And that's the way Bill Watts ran things in the mid south territory. We're going to talk more about promoters. Who was the best, who was the smartest, who was the hardest working. Right after I take care of a little bit of business.

[Steve Austin Show Announcer]

You're listening to another classic episode of the Steve Austin show, only on podcast one.

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[Steve Austin]

Talking to Jim Ross, my buddy. We're talking Heat, we're talking baby faces that are over and money. Now we're going to switch over and talk about some promoters. Who was the best, who was the hardest working. Who's the smartest? There's so many of them. And Jim Ross was right there in the heyday of it all. And with the current regime. Let's talk about promoters. Jim, you work with Bill Watts. You said he ran the best one hour show there was. But Vince was probably the smartest cat there ever was. Let's break all that down.

[Jim Ross]

Well, the thing about it is that every promoter had to take advantage of their demographic and know their audience. And that's why Watts style of booking and the wild west aspect of what he did. A lot of blood, a lot of, a lot of violence. You know there were a lot of people that were, you know, it's not a great image, you know, you know the. We had a lot of Russians with heat. I've mentioned that before, German, anti Americans, hell you. They'd book a. He'd bring a guy in from Canada and he'd make sure everybody knew this guy was Canadian and, and I don't know that, you know, there hasn't been no wars between the United States and Canada. The biggest issues have been getting through customs. When you go fly into the country, nothing. Are trying to figure out them little coins, you know what they mean, those loogies or whatever the hell they are.

[Steve Austin]

Why is Bill watch the king of the 60 Minute Wrestling Show?

[Jim Ross]

Because he told every, every segment. There were six segments to a wrestling hour. That means there's five commercial breaks. And every segment had a beginning, a middle and an end, meaning it had a purpose. He had a GPS for every segment. There was a start and a finish line. So every segment had a purpose and every person in that segment had a role. And he would make it clear as to what the role was. I remember Ernie Ladd booking Lynn Denton who was the grappler, who was really a hell of a hand out of poor Portland, Oregon area. Came down there and he wanted to make a good impression first night. And Bill didn't put JYD on TV that often in the ring. He did promos, he was a promo guy. But Lynn didn't went in there and wanted to make a good first impression. He blew Dog up. Dog got fatigued and he out wrestled Dogs made him look kind of bad. Then Dog finally beat him with his power slam and Bill was just, you know, I called the match and I tried to ignore it because I knew what Bill was. I had to protect the dog, right? But you got to call us on the monitor. That's the only match in all the years that I worked for Bill that Never made air. He made, he edited it all.

[Steve Austin]

Gonna protect the Dog, huh?

[Jim Ross]

Oh, yeah. Well, Ernie Ladd was a booker and he called me and Ernie into the. His little private office at the Irish Mill Boys Club there on the fairgrounds in Shreveport, and, and Lynn Denton and Dog. And he said, he told Lynn, he said, you're fired, Ernie, you're fired. And Dog, you're an idiot. And I didn't know what the hell to tell you looking at me. I'm just calling what's on the monitor. But I should have probably done better. So he fired everybody. And I thought I was going to be fine, get fired. And of course, by the time the second show was over, Ernie was back as a booker and Lynn didn't kept his job because Ernie convinced Bill to give Lynn another chance. So Lynn went back and we told the fans that Lynn Benton was so, so angry at Dog that the wind was a fluke. And that was this to the house. So they had a rematch, but it was really the match goes back in that first show and Lynn didn't flew around like a flying Wanda and made Dog look like a, you know, Ebony Superman.

[Steve Austin]

Right.

[Jim Ross]

Which is what he was supposed to do in the first place. So Lynn kept his job, Ernie kept his booking job. But for a few minutes there, they were all fired and I was on double secret probation, so to speak. That's what Bill's a perfectionist. That one hour, there was no filler. There was no. There was. If something got funny, it was funny by being organic or natural. It was nothing set out written to be funny. He was a dramatic. Everything was drama. Everything was drama. You know, I was telling you the other day on the phone, I was watching this Bates Motel, you know, and it's a psycho drama. Well, there's not much humor on it, but sometimes things are inadvertently funny. And that's kind of the way Bill's wrestling show was. If something was got a laugh, it was inadvertently funny, it was dramatic, it was athletic, it was compelling. That was his mantra. And maybe it was one dimensional, maybe it wasn't an all encompassing entertainment show, but it was an action adventure. Kick your ass, here's why we're fighting situation. So that's where we were on that deal with Bill. A lot of those promoters though, knew their audience and Bill knew his audience. But nobody comes close to Vince as far as knowing the whole every aspect of promoting and building an entertainment company. And I get this all the time. Well, on Twitter, RSBBQ, by the way, people saying, well, McMahon killed the territories I say bullshit to that and here's why I say that. Not because I'm still working as a consultant and I'm trying to kiss Vince's ass. I've done that on television. But I was there when the territories were going down the drain. I was watching, I was inside a territory. So this is not hearsay. The promoters themselves killed their own territories and they did it by not developing any new stars and they did it by not keeping up with the. They wouldn't know anything about a podcast back in those days. Steve, I can tell you this, when I went to Watts and said I want to do some radio promotions in these markets and get a big radio station in the market to make it, let's say KPLC night. And they would run so many spots and we'd let them do the guest ring announcing and all of a sudden the houses went crazy. But Bill had never bought a radio spot in his life. If you didn't get it off that one hour TV show, there wasn't nothing else that you saw the little story in the paper and that's it. They didn't use newspaper ads. Maybe a little bitty one, that was it. Anything outside that show was no more than a 1 or 2 inch ad of paper. So the over promoter said, well if they ain't watching my show, they're not going to come to matches anyway. It was just stupid nearsightedness. So they were repurposing old guys that were old and protective of their spots. They were holding down young talent who would go elsewhere or just quit the business. So the old promoters killed their own territories. McMahon was just smart enough to see what was going on and take advantage of creating relationships with those local television markets with a more exciting product. Plus he spent money with them. He bought advertising, believe it or not, he spent money and he used the newspaper and he used the radio. He promoted electronically, he out promoted them. So you've got a bunch of ox wrestlers who want to do things like they always did. That's like putting out window cards. How the hell do you run a market every week and expect that the window cards are going to do it? Because you got to change the window cards every three or four days because it's a different show, a different date. It's stupid. So I'm a big believer that the promoters kill their own businesses and not one guy by any stretch of the imagination, but a lot of good. Jim Barnett was a good promoter. You know, Barnett ran Australia. Barnett was a shrewd operator and you know I've always said Barnett should have written a book. He passed away before he had the courage to do it. And I've always thought that either Nathan Lane or that dude that played the gay guy in that Donnie Wahlberg movie about the porn star, Dirk Diggler, whatever the hell that was. Whatever the movie that was.

[Steve Austin]

Yeah. Boogie Nights.

[Jim Ross]

Yeah, Boogie Nights. Seymour, what's his name? Philip Seymour Thomas. Your Hollywood guy, what's his name?

[Steve Austin]

Philip Seymour Thomas, something like that.

[Jim Ross]

Kind of a hell of an actor. Hoffman, he played Truman Capote.

[Steve Austin]

Yeah, Philip Seymour Hoffman.

[Jim Ross]

Hoffman, yeah, that's the dude I didn't ever book. I never did work with him.

[Steve Austin]

Well, let's talk about, talk about a little bit about Eddie Graham down there in Florida. Because I used to hear the damnedest things about how this guy was one of the preeminent finish guys in the history of the business. What was it about him and the finish?

[Jim Ross]

He would make you believe it was real, reality based. It wasn't a, it wasn't a scripted reality show. It was, but you couldn't tell it. And the issues were underst. Could be understood by all demographics. No matter the color of your skin, no matter your gender, or no matter your age, you understood what the issues were about. And that's very, very important. Why are you, why are these two grown men fighting? Why are they angry at each other? What's at stake? And then you had Gordasovi there to do the presentation and make it real so the angles are all based in reality. And so then the finishes were the same, so it wasn't like some rinky dink, you know, I used to get frustrated watching the talented luchadors when WCW was after I'd left in 93, watching them do all these amazing spots and then beat somebody with a small package. I'm thinking, you got to be shitting me. That's what you got, that's what you're going to end up with. You know, Dean Malenko will go out there and do something really cool and zigzag and get you in some kind of weird ass hole. It made sense. But for some of those guys to do all this flipping and flying and Hurricaneranas and Topaz and Suicide dies and all this other stuff and then they win the match with a small package. Made me want to throw up because it didn't fit the story. It wasn't believable. I mean, you, this, you took everything this guy had to offer and then you lost with a small package. I don't get it. You have to Figure. Help me figure that out. So believability was the bottom line. And Bill got a lot of. Bill told me that he got his PhD in booking from Eddie Graham. So that's fixed volumes. And look at all the guys that went through that Florida territory over the years. That's a territory now that you could start another wrestling company with that group of guys right there and be competitive without question. Because of the talent level, Eddie attracted the top guys. Now, it was good to go to Florida because the weather was nice, he had the beaches, had a lot of pretty girls, and you had no state income tax. So Florida was a destination a lot of guys wanted to get to, but they also wanted to get there to work with Eddie. Dusty Rhodes learned how to be a booker from Eddie Graham. A lot of guys did. Cowboy was another one, as I mentioned. So Eddie was just a great finish guy. So the finish made sense. Steve, it wasn't like you're going to roll your eyes. Oh, come on, that's bullshit. I ain't gonna believe that one. You just took me out of my mood. You hit a bad note in your song here. I don't get it. You know, that's like Johnny Cash doing rap. I don't. Wait a minute. I don't want to hear Johnny Cash do rap. I want to hear Johnny Cash do Johnny Cash. Keep me in the moment. Right? Don't take me out of the moment. And Eddie Graham never let that happen.

[Steve Austin]

Well, let's talk about Vern Gagne for a little bit in awa, because seemingly, I mean, Vern was kind of in that spot where, you know, he could have. He was a guy that could really compete with. Vince had a lot of the key components. Vince recruited some of those components out. Vern lost his footing and went down the drain. But Vern could have been the guy. What did he not do to get him to turn the corner and be able to compete and take the lead?

[Jim Ross]

Well, you know, I never worked for Vern. I met him several times because he and Bill were partners. When Bill bought Bill, Fritz von Eric and Vern bought all parts of McGurk's territory because McGirk couldn't get talent. So he bought. He sold part of his territory to those three guys built in place. And Vern and Fritz, they're supposed to do talent sharing, and that didn't ever work out. That's like the same theory as somebody saying the wrestlers ought to form a union. Hell, they can't. If you get 30 wrestlers together, they couldn't even agree on what to order for lunch, much less have a union and have dues and have structure. Ain't gonna happen. People need to forget about wrestlers having a union. It's a stupid ass idea that will never happen. So Verne wouldn't change with the times, in my estimation. And even though Verne developed some of the biggest stars in his camp and had some great talents, Flair was developed there, the Steamboat was developed there, Sergeant Slaughter, you know, the Iron Sheik. A lot of real top hands learned their trade in Vern's camp in Minnesota. But for some reason, when he got to a certain point of his life, he lost that edge of keeping developing new talent. And they kept producing TV in that little studio setting and it wasn't exciting. And, you know, Watts realized that we had to get out of the studio in Shreveport. We moved our television to Tulsa, to the convention center, which seated, you know, six, eight thousand people. And that's a hell of a lot different than 100 people in the studio audience and the same one sitting in the same place every week. So Byrne never really got into the. He didn't modernize his business, he didn't keep up with current times. And I think that's what really essentially killed him. And he was reluctant to get guys under contract. Bill did start using contracts toward the end because we lost a bunch of guys to WWF at the time. And the guys gave their notice, but they didn't have a contract, so they were able to give their notice. Top guys supposed to get six weeks notice and guys underneath two weeks notice. It usually didn't ever work out that way. And Byrne didn't have a lot of his guys on paper. So when you're offered opportunity like Hogan was and Mean Gene and several others in that AWA territory, they went to where they thought the money was going to go, and they were right. I mean, smartest thing Hogan ever did was leave awa, even though he established his body of work there, which is what led him to come to WWF at the time. So I just think Vernon was one of those open motors, that headstrong alpha male. I ain't changing. I've always done it this way and to hell with it. And that's same thing could be said of Dicta Bruiser in Indianapolis, Bob Geigel in Kansas City. They just wouldn't change. Good guys, but they thought their way was the only way. And there ain't no only way.

[Steve Austin]

Speaking of change, that's going to take me into my next little segue. We're going to talk about change. Because that's what Vince has been able to do. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about change with Jim Ross in the wrestling business. And before we do that, check it out.

[Steve Austin Show Announcer]

You're listening to another classic episode of the Steve Austin show, only on Podcast 1.

[Jim Ross]

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[Steve Austin]

All right, When I left off with Jim Ross, we were talking about being able to change. And one thing that Vince McMahon has been able to do is change. He's not a stick in the mud. He'll roll with the punches. Out of the man, out of it. I don't even know what to say, Jim. Out of the Dark Ages. And then to, you know what? The best way to lead into this, Jim, is when Vince would always tell a story. It was when Ted Turner bought the NWA from Crockett. And he calls Vince and he says, vince, guess what? I'm in the wrestling business. And Vince said, well, that's fine, Ted, because I'm in the entertainment business. And that's the way it was. What's the difference between being in a wrestling business and being in an entertainment business, Jim?

[Jim Ross]

Well, I think, you know, you look at the elements that Vince brought, made taping in big arenas, always seeing big crowds, people were drawn to, Boy, look at all those people. This must be good. Let's watch this, then. Look at what you saw in the old territory days where they would tape in a studio because they got their production free, by and large, because they provided an hour of programming, they got a good rating for that station. So the station would trade out an hour of programming for the production cost. So the promoters didn't want to get out of that comfort zone. They had to go in the little studio. They had no pyro, they had no extra lighting, they had no music, they had no sets. You only saw a few people. It didn't look like it was a Great deal. Unless you're a die hard wrestling fan, you might just skip by it when you're changing channels because it didn't look like anybody was watching. There wasn't anybody there. You know, that's like watching you. And I'm both a big football fan. One thing that'll turn me off is when a director of a football game, especially some of those late night games on Saturday, has a shot of a bunch of empty seats where there's no crowd there to ball me. That takes me out of the moment for a little while, you know, just. And that's why the NFL protects itself. Because you got stadiums like down the Dolphins in Miami where they don't sell out, they haven't sold out and they have blackouts. Tampa, another one. They won't let the national audience see empty seats because those games ain't televised. In those local markets you might get them on satellite, but if you get them on satellite and you want to watch, you're watching because you don't care if there's anybody there or not. But as far as the national image and protecting that market, they're just not going to let that happen. So Vince took the thing out of the smoky little arenas, Dungy looking places, lit them up. Used to be the crowd was not lit. You couldn't see the fans, you only saw the ring. I still have a little bit of the old school variety. I kind of like that ring have been the focal point.

[Steve Austin]

I do too.

[Jim Ross]

With a little bit of light, you know, maybe flowing out to the couple of rows back.

[Steve Austin]

I don't need to see everything. I want the focus on that product in the ring.

[Jim Ross]

Yeah, so I think he did that. He ingratiated himself with mainstream entertainment. People like a lot of the guests that were at WrestleMania 1, a lot of mainstream stars, because he realized that that would get him mainstream publicity. So by using those talents, Liberace or Billy Martin or Muhammad Ali or whoever it was, it got him, it made his promotion cool. Cyndi Lauper and the MTV thing and all that stuff. So all of a sudden he created a new image for the genre of wrestling and created that sports entertainment thing. And so I think that he had a vision for what it was going to be. And that's the thing about Vince. He's never been afraid to take calculated risk. That's what he calls them. Somebody would say, I don't take a chance. Vince didn't take chances. He took calculated risks. And you heard him use that tournament a hundred times. And he has big cojones he's not afraid. And he would go out there and try different things. Did everything work? No, it didn't, but that's the art. Is every movie a blockbuster? No, they're not. And there's some damn good directors and stars and everything else that's been in movies that were. That belong in the Hopper, you know, but that's the gamble you take sometimes in the entertainment or in that world. So I just think you have a vision, Steve, of making it brighter and more, you know, more at a better look, a better presentation, and, you know, along the way, you can lose your way and take your eye off what happens bell to bell. I get that. But as far as the presentation and the vision, nobody's ever come close to McMahon as far as having a vision for building a brand. And when you're in 160 countries or wherever it is now, in 40, 50 languages, who in the hell ever. I would have thought that back in the, you know, in the 70s, when I got in the business and I was making those 40 bucks a night and I was riding down the road with Akbar and Danny Hodge, go make my $40. I would never realize that somewhere down the road, I'd be in South Africa or we'd be in Kuwait or we'd be in Japan or wherever. I just thought I'd be in Fort Smith, Arkansas, the next day, because that was on the territory. So he changed the whole feel for the business and created an opportunity for the guys to make a whole hell of a lot more money. People can bitch about Vince all they want, but a lot of guys we both know, including you and me, have made a hell of a living thanks to him and his vision for what he did with your character and my character and several other guys that we know. Did we always agree philosophically? Did we always run the right play? Well, that's always subjective. But nobody compares to him as far as vision is concerned, because he kept up. It's like all the social media stuff. I came streaming and kicking into Twitter because they wanted me to do it. And so I'm team player. I said, okay, I'll do Twitter. Didn't want to do it. I was hesitant because I was old school, didn't understand it. Sometimes what you don't understand as a change, you perceive as being negative. And that's not always the case, as we both know. And so now I'm a Twitter fanatic. You know, I've got probably close to 800,000 followers, and I'm not even on TV all the time anymore. But so it's growing. So that's just another example, social media stuff. He just stays ahead of the curve. And I think we're going through a transition now as far as the talent's concerned. A lot of young guys trying to get their foothold. But you know, that may be another story for another time. But as far as promoters go, he was outstanding. You know, Jimmy Crockett wasn't a bad promoter. He just didn't have the funds to be to compete with McMahon.

[Steve Austin]

But when you think about Jimmy Crockett and this is going back in the day a little bit, you're thinking, man, that was hardcore situation serious wrestling territory, as was, you know, Mid south, as was WWF back in the day, and all the transitions it went through. And by and large, any smaller territory in the United States. But when you go back to talking like you were about Bill Watts and if there was that glimmer of humor that wasn't out and out supposed to be funny, but it just lent itself to the reason, to the angle, because of the timing, then it was cool. But when do you cross the line into letting in too many glimmers of humor? Is that prevalent in today's WWE product?

[Jim Ross]

Only if the talent has the chops to pull it off. That's why there's only a handful of big time stand up comedians that are filling arenas and not comedy clubs. Their comedy club comedians are dimedescent. And the guys, how many comedians are going and doing 5,000 seats, 10,000 seats? How many comedians are doing stadiums? Well, there's none of them doing stadiums. So my point is doing comedy is hard. It's an art form. And I have a lot of respect for guys that are able to do great comedy. You know, you and I both are fans of Ron White. Ron White's a pretty successful comedian, but he's one of a handful of guys Seinfeld could do it when he was traveling. He still does when he wants to, but there's very. Comedy's hard to pull off. And when you get an untrained thespian to try to be a comedian, sometimes it just doesn't work. And there are some guys that are actually better at doing comedy than they are wrestling. And there's a place for those kind of guys. There's a place for those kind of guys if they're cast in the right role. But I just think comedy is really, really hard to do. And I think that for writers to write comedic material who aren't comedy writers and they think they understand the character of the Performer and the performer should be able to see my vision. It's not that easy. The best promos are where you give guys bullet points and you tell them you got X number of minutes or whatever and you say sickle, go do it. And that's Watts. Watts is a great promo guy and taught great promos but nothing was ever scripted. He'd cut things down and chew guys ass out and things like that. If guys tried to, if heels tried to be too funny on their promos and weren't menacing or weren't villainous enough, if that's a word, he'd shut them down and cut and lecture and cuss everybody out would start over. But he had a way that he knew what his film was going to be cast, how it was going to be cast, and it wasn't going to be cast with humor. Murdoch was the worst one. Murdoch had a great sense of humor and Murdoch was the same way in the ring. When Murdoch wanted to be serious, he was as good a worker as you could find. I will go to my grace saying that if he had been more reliable, dependable, he would have been an NWA champion. But Dickie was sometimes wanted to do his Three Stooges routine in the middle of a match and it pissed off serious workers and a lot of promoters and Bill wouldn't stand for that. You know Murdoch, when Murdoch was a baby face, he'd let him build a little bit more humor. But boy, whenever he was a heel, you better be serious. And I want people to pay money to come see and whoop your ass. I don't want them to be laughing at you, enjoying what you're doing. I want them to hate your ass. That was the whole deal there. Comedy's hard, it's just hard to do. I admire, I think the most talented entertainers are great comedians. I truly believe that.

[Steve Austin]

Well, with that being said and talking about the glimmer of humor as Bill Watts would only let so much of it in. And to your point about it's got to be the right talent with right ability and then touching upon promos, take this thing home. Let's finish up talking about promos and when we pick back up again in a couple of weeks, we'll spend a lot of time on promos. But let's get started. In your mind, in your heart, what is a winning promo about? Is it conviction? Is it, you know, the content? Is it the situation at hand? Let's talk about that. What makes a successful money drawn promo in your brain?

[Jim Ross]

Well, I think every promo's got to have structure. You got to have a hot start, you got to have a meaty, meaty middle M e a T y. You got to have substance, in other words, in the middle of it. And you got to have a hell of a go home line. And so there's got to be structure. You got to have something. You can't go out there like a cabbage, all head, no rear end, and have a good promo. Promos are designed to, to sell. They're either selling you as a character, you're selling a pay per view, you're selling a live event ticket, you're selling what's still to come, you're selling something in every promo that's done in my estimation. And to be a good salesman, you got to have structure. And I think the promos, they've got to have some structure. Now, am I telling you in off the cuff code that they got to be scripted? Absolutely not. The best promos are the ones where a talent can be himself or herself. They can put their structure together in bullet point form from somebody that they're working with, whomever they're taking their direction from, and then they can translate that into themselves. I have to believe that you're telling me that you're sincere about what you're saying in whatever context it is. I have to believe that you're not bullshitting me. If I think that you're bullshitting me, then I am tuning you out. I might hear you, but I'm not listening to you. And when the audience stops listening to a promo, they hear it, they hear the audible noise, but they're not listening. You lost them. So you got to have structure. You got to be real in the moment. Real in the moment. A lot of your fomos, you had humor in your promos, but it was the right time at the right place. But when it comes down to nut cutting time, I didn't have to worry that I knew that Stone Cold was telling me what he believed in his heart. And you weren't winking at me that you were going to whip somebody's ass at WrestleMania.

[Steve Austin]

Now, if I said I was going to whip somebody's ass, I was damn sure going to go out and attempt to do that. Now could I fail? Maybe that would depend and we'll get down the road to that point. But I'm going in there with all convictions that I am going to win. I'm going to win. I'm going to whip your ass. I'm going to do whatever it takes. Some of my best Promos were right off the fly, hearing a guy talking and responding accordingly. It's one thing when you got a chance to sit there and say, yeah, he's probably going to say this, or he might say a little bit of that. But once the some bitch fires off on that horn and you're listening, I mean, I can listen to a guy's promo on me and know, hey, man, I might have 10, 15 minutes. I might get to me for an hour before I get my time on the horn, but my adrenaline is already starting to boil because that's something that's done fired me up. Now it's in a business standpoint, and he might have been shooting a little bit there, but it was all geared towards the Persona and the being that Stone Cold was. So when you're talking to me, I'm listening, and everybody knows I'm a little hard of hearing, but I can hear a pin drop in a building. So if somebody's talking shit to me, if someone says they're going to whip my ass, I'm going to respond accordingly. So most of my stuff was all off the cuff. And I remember when I came back from my neck surgery, you know, the business had kind of started changing at that point. And by the time I came back a year later, they were kind of starting to give guys outlines and stuff like that. And I was like, holy shit, man. This is a whole different program from when I was here. And at that point, you know, I was kind of going with the flow a little bit, but it was totally different for me. I never enjoyed promos quite as much following that protocol as I did when I was freewheeling it.

[Jim Ross]

Yeah, I think most. I think all the great talkers were natural extensions of themselves. They were entrepreneurs. They had the entrepreneurial spirit. They believed in their character, they believed in what they were selling. I think that what's made, you know, my success is because I never played the role of a wrestling announcer. I never used fake name. For what that's worth, if it's anything, I don't even know why I said that. But I never use a stage name. The only thing I ever did that was different than what my normal day to day was wearing that black hat. And now I don't ever forget that black hat. If I'm going to NXT to coach these kids or to work with these new announcers, guess what? I wear my black hat to the Oklahoma City airport, down to dfw, through the airport, all the way to Orlando, to the rental car place, and to the hotel. That black hat is a big part of me now. So that's. And I got no problem with it. That's what people expect to see. But I always believed in me because I knew that being a chubby, Southern accent guy, I was going to be challenged to make it on a national level in any endeavor, whether it be the NFL or college football or whatever. Now, egocentrically, do I believe that in another life I could have been an NFL broadcaster or a college football broadcaster? You're damn right. Without question. Without question. But that wasn't my calling. And I wouldn't change the damn thing of how everything went. And then when you get Bell's palsy three times and you can't smile, you got. Your facial expressions change. You got to have the. You got to believe in yourself. And I believed in what I did. I believed in my passion. I believed in my heart and soul of what I saw in that monitor. I was going to make sure that the person at home felt it because I was emotionally invested in what I did for a living and proud of it, still am. And when a great promo guy goes out there, he's got to be. He or she got to be emotionally invested in that character. Who are you? You should be an extension of who you are as a human being. And just turn the volume up a little bit, give me a little bit more passion and. Because then you're organic, you're natural. You know, I watch your movies and I see. Steve, I don't see. And maybe, I don't know, maybe that's an insult to some. To a real actor person like you are now. But I see real. I see organic. I see when you. I just see real. And I don't look past that. You're acting. I just. I get immersed in the story, and I think that's what I'm supposed to do when I watch a movie, get immersed into the story.

[Steve Austin]

I'm still working at that aspect of it. I got a long ways to go on that. But as Stone Cold Steve Austin, 100% of the time out there, I believed 120%. Everything I was doing was real deal, whether it was in the ring and I was working or cutting a promo on a guy to draw money, it was all real deal to me. And the thing about it is, I've really run out of time for this damn show. And I'm going to have Jim Ross on again. And we're going to keep talking about the promo. We're going to talk about drawing money, getting hired, fired, hired. Back fired again, the story of Jim Ross as he goes down the road of professional wrestling. My good friend, thank you for joining me. This is Steve Austin and I'll catch your ass down the road.

[Steve Austin Show Announcer]

Thank you for joining us. For another classic episode of the Steve Austin show, please leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts and tell your friends. For more Steve Austin show go to podcast1.com that's podcast o n e dot.

[Jim Ross]

Com.

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[Jim Ross]

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