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The STIMPACK Podcast
43 Days to Freedom - Bonus - Austin Interview
00:51:29
Jeff Frazier interviews Austin Holmes, who played a crucial role in negotiating and securing Jeff's release from kidnapping in Haiti. Austin is described as having the skill set and integrity needed for the job. The conversation covers their initial...
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Stimpak Podcast. Stimpak is a Haiti focused think tank and interventional ngo.
- [00:07]
B
Thank you for listening. Okay, here we go. Welcome back to The Stimpak podcast 43 Days to Freedom series. We have a special bonus episode happening right now. Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce to you one of my heroes, Austin Holmes. Austin, welcome to the program.
- [00:28]
A
Great to be here, Jeff. Great to see you. Honored to be here. Get to partake, man.
- [00:34]
B
Thanks. Thanks. Well, let me do a quick and insufficient introduction to Austin, and then we'll. We'll kind of dig in. So those of you who've been listening to the podcast may have heard that name. I know there's a lot of names that get thrown around on the podcast, so I'll. I'll just be clear about who Austin is. So in the early days of my kidnapping, my wife was doing what she could through our network, trying to figure out who was qualified in this kind of thing to lead a kidnapping negotiation and extraction somehow and figure out if that skill set even existed. And the higher you went in the network, the more consistent the refrain was, you got to talk to this guy, Austin Holmes. He's looking for the integrity that you're looking for. And, and believe it or not, he does it for free. And that's obviously a remarkable set of converging attributes to find in one person. And so we were thrilled to have been introduced to Austin. It took a couple of days for everyone to believe the hype on Austin, but we found it to be nothing but true. And so I was the benefactor of his continued dedication for six weeks. And when I say dedication, I mean that's a 24 hour a day available ability. Many of the hours of those days are working on getting me set free. That's putting his other many priorities, other worthy endeavors aside, his family being without him for many days, many hours, late nights, during dinner, during vacations, family reunions, all that stuff. It was an immense sacrifice. Austin. I've said thanks many times. I'll continue to do so. Austin is one of my freedom fighters on my lifelong freedom fighters team. And I'm grateful to have you and all that you've done for me. Thanks for being here today.
- [02:40]
A
So honored to get to be Jeff. Man, you kind of talk about getting to know somebody where you feel like you know them really well, but you haven't spent the time together. I think you. And I'm just, you know, just thankful that we got to be a part of the story and getting to watch Mary and Aaron grow through all that was pretty remarkable. There's a little bit of a lag, so forgive me if I miss anything, but. Yeah, keep going, man. You're great.
- [03:09]
B
No, thank you. Austin has been working in Haiti for years, not just on weird things like getting me out of trouble, but also assisting many large NGOs in trying to lift Haiti in lots of different ways. Austin, want to speak a little bit about that? Yeah.
- [03:27]
A
And I was introduced to Haiti through some buddies who worked out who had moved down there in 2009. And, you know, we probably have a pretty typical story of doing about everything wrong, you can do wrong. And so we. We paid some dumb tax, and then we worked. We did a lot of work. After the earthquake in January 2010, that's when I got introduced to Mission of Hope and became very close with the team there, thought, man, this is what we'd want to be in 20 years. And so just started volunteering and serving there. And that. That characterizes most of the last 14, you know, 15 years of Haiti. And I think there are some groups that really are. Are seeking to get it right. And they're one of them of just, you know, working with, by and through Haitians who love their country. You know, the underappreciated, you know, asset and people are the Haitians who are sacrificing their lives, their livelihood, their families at great personal cost to continue serving today. You know, many of whom were a part of. I'm not talking about Mission of Hope here, but just other great people who were part of your recovery and supporting it. Their names are never going to be mentioned. We wouldn't have you here today without them. And so, yeah, with Mission Hope, I served there and led all their operations in country for a number of years before we moved back to Florida. I mean, I can't say enough good things about them and other groups like them. And I felt privileged to get to serve in Haiti. We just love it.
- [04:59]
B
It's part of us, and I'm grateful that you did. So let's dig into it. Do you mind maybe telling me, I don't know, this part of the story. Your first kind of interaction with my crew and maybe then with Mary also, and kind of how came in and on the team, your first kind of interaction with my situation. And you're welcome to name check who you want and avoid who you like. You'd like to avoid naming. It's on you.
- [05:27]
A
Yeah. So the short of it was we were on a family trip out in California, and I get a call from some mutual Friends in the special operations community who somewhere between loving, respecting, and hating me enough, you know, we. We have an inside joke about. Thank you so much for that introduction. But remember that vividly and, and getting tied in with Mary and Aaron and Doug and kind of, that became the team pretty quickly. So, yeah, that's how I got tied in. I'll never forget it.
- [05:59]
B
Awesome. So as a reminder, audience, Doug is my neighbor and friend and is my brother in law, so Mary's big brother and the team that is kind of the core team.
- [06:11]
A
Definitely, definitely. We would pull Billy in periodically if there was something I thought they needed to hear directly from him. But yeah, and Doug, too. Marion, Aaron and I were talking daily, you know, and, you know, you're just trying to figure it out. Right.
- [06:28]
B
Tell me a little bit about maybe your first week or so. Like what. What was maybe your overriding memories there? You know, my guess is you're still just. Just getting started. Probably doing a lot of fact finding, probably trying to see if the team was even going to work.
- [06:45]
A
Definitely. You know, when. When I came in, it was really closer to, I think day five to day seven and somewhere in there. So it wasn't from the beginning. So we were honestly, I was trying to get caught up on who said what, what commitments were made, who were the actors, who could we trust, who could you not? You know, you're really trying to assess, you know, who's who. Right. And who can. Yeah, everything you're taking with observations always have a degree of error. And trust is a highly prized item. So you're trying to figure out what motivates which people too. So it took some time to get our legs underneath us and then quickly started realizing that we had a problem. His name was Jeff Brazier. I'm going, dang it, I got to deal with this guy. So I've said most of my time going, man, I understand exactly what he's doing. I think I'd be doing the same thing. And yet I have to figure out how to totally discredit this guy. And so, you know, I put myself or our team, you know, it's almost like we had to assume this adversarial position to you, which we thought was in your interest. So it's like we're fighting Jeff for Jeff was kind of, I think, our language at some point. Good, you know, and it's like this game, right? You're everybody's. You're firewalled from each other. And there's things, listening to the podcast where you don't know who's on the other end of that call. Sometimes you make wrong assumptions or you look back and you go, man, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've looked back on this. I was looking over the AR that we did immediately after, because it's kind of helpful to look at it again from. In light of the podcast and your thoughts. And there's certainly many things that we did wrong, could have done better, would have done different, know what we know now you know, and you chalk them up and you go, right, you make the best decision you can with the information you have, but you're working to get, to answer your question, a good bearing on the situation, on all the variables around it, so that you ultimately, when you move, you know that you can move, trusting the players that are on the table because, like, you know, and you. I think you've said, any negotiations. The irony is it's really about establishing trust. You're working to build and establish credibility, to go, hey, can we believe that what they say is true? Do we know that when they say Jeff's okay that he's actually okay? Do they know that, you know, if we move forward on these terms, are they going to honor it? And. And so that's tenuous at all times, right? But, yeah, that's. Those trying to get our bearing the first weeks, really.
- [09:40]
B
Yeah, yeah. Take me forward into maybe we'll. Let's talk. Unless there's anything else. If I go too fast, you let me know and say, hey, you missed something. Take me forward where The. The first time you guys try to make that payment, that first 10k, but payment. Tell me a little bit about what that was on your side of that. Right? My. I had a limited view into what that even was. To me, it was a down payment. Right. Because I was still negotiating for the big 100k, and I, in, who I call Gunny, was, was just on the phone saying, dude, all I got is 10k, right? And I'm. I'm like, fine, just bring that. That'll take some heat off of me. And we'll. We'll prove the payment mechanism that the money doesn't get lost. Like, that's my perspective. And then you, I'm sure, have a totally different view of what went down there. You guys were having conversations that I wasn't having. But tell me about your side of that.
- [10:45]
A
Yeah, I think when I came in, part of that was underway as far as maybe terms or whatever. We immediately began working to kind of validate the credentials of everyone Go, hey, can I trust them? Who, who is Jeff working with? Right. And so many of those guys turned out to be, you know, great actors too. You know, we weren't, we were always trying to position that, and we, we weren't going to do multiple payments. And we understood that was the game. We didn't want to partake in a bad faith game. Bad faith being we're going to do one payment. If it's going to be two payments, then you're going to tell us that it's going to be two payments. But at the end of the day, if we can't trust and define terms and agreements, then what confidence should we ever have in moving forward? And so it was tough at first, you know, and you mentioned earlier kind of this volunteer, right. Which it's like the last surgeon you want is the free one, you know.
- [11:48]
B
So not in this case.
- [11:52]
A
So I'm this, you know, free medical doctor, right. Giving, giving advice, which also gives, you know, some level of freedom. I remember many times reminding Aaron and Doug and Mary who, you know, we've got to talk about Mary at some point. Yeah. And Mary became kind of like a sister. Like, you know, you guys came so close to it. But, you know, I remind them, you can fire me at any point. You know, I'm going to tell you if I think you're doing something wrong. And anytime you want to do something different, you can do it. I'm in an advisory role here. If I've got the ball, I'm going to tell you, let you make the decision that we're going to execute it. But I'm there to advise and execute. It's not ultimately my decision to make, which is, you know, a tough one. And that wasn't to, you know, remove onus or responsibility. It was to respect the fact that Mary. And Mary has to ultimately have that call. Right. And Aaron was there to advise, too. And so anyway, you know, so I hated every bit of that, hated the most tacit positioning that this was a first payment. Disagreed with it, disagreed on the amount, disagreed on the manner, which it was kind of in play. So, you know, kind of reluctantly move forward with very imperfect validation of actors going into that. And yeah, honestly, I think it's something that really set us back. You know, it was if anybody ever in that situation, you change the offense up after the first quarter and it, it's a ton of reset because what we're really having to do is we're having to undo all the commitments and the entire contextualization for negotiation and they don't know. You had no idea the entire team had changed. Right. It was way later listening to you, I couldn't believe how late it was that you actually first spoke with Billy. We also had a lot of communication challenges for various reasons. Gang leaders swapping phones and doing all that stuff, leadership changes on their side. But, man, that was a tremendous obstacle. I think we lost, to be honest, two to three weeks. That really reset the starting block on a 42 day thing that I think certainly could have potentially saved us time. But there's also, there's a real element that our view that we had from our side, that there's a standard timeline, that these tend to operate within a parameter. And so, you know, right when I came in, I wanted to set realistic expectations for everyone, both in terms of what the market was at, what we thought was reasonable and responsible, and what the timing would look like and what your likelihood or probability of death would be, which, you know, is. Is weird to think about, but is very real. You know, in certain gangs, it's higher than others. So there was an element on the time frame standpoint, a time frame view where you were going to have to. You're going to. You were in the oven, you were going to have to bake. Like, there was no situation where you were going to get out in 14 days, unfortunately. So that I think was difficult for everyone, but I think ended up being extremely important on our end for everyone to go, hey, it feels really long and us going, well, this is actually about. Right, it's about what we thought. But anyway, is that helpful?
- [15:39]
B
Yeah, of course, of course. So you know that I was told that that first 10k payment, you. You guys brought it in and they declined it. Do I understand that? Correct.
- [15:53]
A
They sent it back, which just kind of miffed everybody. You know, sometimes you get a knuckleball. And we just said, all right, what do we not know? You know? And it really. We ultimately interpret it as a signal that they really took $100,000 commitment seriously. And so from that point on, I knew I had to discredit you. I was like, man, I'm like, I don't care about the gang. I care about Jeff. Like, we have to sideline Jeff. So everything became about regaining control and getting the microphone back, which was really hard. And you were a worthwhile adversary, Jeff. Formidable. You're a force. And so, you know, but that's.
- [16:49]
B
That I'm obnoxious. That's totally fine.
- [16:52]
A
It wasn't obnoxious. It was. What else should you be doing in the absence of information, you know, and we really failed to communicate and get messaging to you, you know, and we thought we were making attempts, but you know, sometimes things are misinterpreted or not communicated or text messages don't go through. Right. Or they're not like calls don't go through. So there's, there's a lot that contributes to that. But at the end of the day, we really failed to get that messaging to you so that you would have confidence and trust in that. And that's certainly something I do different.
- [17:26]
B
How could you ever know that? I mean, you guys presumed that I was being coerced or under duress or pride. You know, you guys were trying to speak in code the whole time. And it's just, it's an impossible situation. There's. I don't know how you would have gone about it differently. You would have had to somehow know that I was telling the truth when I said I'm. You can speak freely. And I don't know how you would have known that. And I've listened to the recordings, you know, after the fact. And if I put myself in your shoes, I don't know that I would have believed me either. Right. It just. What does duress sound like? Right. What does coerced conversation sound like? Of course, you could see those things both ways. Right? Yeah. Everybody's in an impossible situation. Okay, let's fast forward to day 2728. So negotiations start to ramp up and get real. Tell me about why you guys felt confident kind of moving forward and making an accord and tell me maybe your side, you know, as, as you saw.
- [18:31]
A
Man, that one was frustrating. You know, you, you referenced it. I think it's a good starting place where you know, if the gangs when their strategies to get this work this multi payment system, then you know, they understand at a point that the more they do that, the less trust people have in, you know, in their agreements or courts. And then we saw there, there became this kind of like subtle pivot that gangs, many, many were making which was we're going to blame it on a courier or an alternative gang who stole it en route. Likelihood of that happening while, you know, gangs are running the city and while there are checkpoints and everything else, we feel like the likelihood of that is extremely low. You know, we do often view couriers as they're the people in the middle, they're in the gray. So we have questionable trust there at any point, at all points. But short of it being like that became a ruse. To basically omit a payment and to discredit it, at which point we rejected. And we had made them aware of that prior to that negotiation and accord and how we would view it. So we wanted to signpost and anchor at every point. And we also wanted to make it clear to them, which I think this is really difficult for Aaron and Mary and multiple points, but we had to make it really clear that we were very fine with you sitting there and them continuing to feed you because your life was worth nothing if you weren't alive. And we were prepared to walk in the absence of trust and working forward with them. So that was a major setback and we wanted to communicate it as such to them. And they violated trust. They're going to have to earn it back with us. And. And we're not interested in resetting the negotiation. Payment is payment. They. If they got stolen en route, then it's their freaking job to go find it. And so it sounds like they're too weak a leader to have too little control, and they need to maybe go get a big boy gang member to figure out how to control transportation and route. And so we. We got pretty aggressive, man. But it's just we know the game right in the play, and we wanted to. To be clear that we didn't have the intention of playing it with them. So, yeah, that effectively for you. That adds time. That just sucked. But we felt like it was really important for them knowing who we were and how we were going to operate with them. That one sucked.
- [21:07]
B
Do you remember when Boisale kind of got going and you know your perspective of that from the outside. I know a lot about Bakoli now after I got out, but I only knew my version of it. Right. That I was seeing with my own eyes. I can only imagine what you guys were speculating from the word you were getting.
- [21:26]
A
Yep, man, that was a. I mean, the short of it was that it was a variable that we couldn't control that contributed negatively to your timeline. Right. It was a very real threat and distraction for the gangs and a real risk for them, you know, so, you know, we. We love that there was a movement against the gangs to hopefully prevent them from operating so freely and, you know, such an impunity, it's really a larger indication and indictment on the governance structure and law enforcement capabilities, you know, of Haiti and of the international community. But yeah, I mean, it. It had a huge impact on us, and it kind of was a stalling function for both sides. So I think we, you know, it's it's like watching, you know, like on the nature channel, like you see two bulls, deer and off, and then like another predator comes in and it's like, how's this going to play out? And everybody just kind of like stops. Yeah, kind of how it felt, you know. And of course we were, you know, coordinating closely with law enforcement and country and aware of who they were because they got aggressive on them and were making. Taking measures to try to get offensive as well with some of the gangs during that time. And so we were like, man, we're tracking that, praying to see, like maybe, maybe we catch a break here, you know, in a few ways. And I think everybody kind of had. Had to let the dust settle on that before we could pick up some things. But yeah, it was a, it was a real variable, a real threat. And you know, we wanted to be opportunistic. Obviously it didn't directly impact us much further than that.
- [23:16]
B
Awesome. Let's go backwards a little bit. Can you talk to me about your first impressions of Mary and you know, the ramping her up, getting her ready, you know, how she was responding, how you were working together, that kind of thing.
- [23:35]
A
Oh, man. Yeah. So, you know, I'm pretty sure I spoke with Doug or Aaron first before getting connected to Mary, which is great, right? That they were shielding, embedding people prior to bringing them into her, which. And I think they served Mary so, so well and so faithfully through it. First. First connection. I don't remember exactly and I don't have my notes in front of me from the conversation, but I knew you had somebody who was a person of faith. I knew you had this. She came across and obviously comes across so genuine. Right. She's so authentic in every way. And so you're not sitting there when you're talking with Mary, you're not really wondering if there's something else that she's thinking, there's another narrative that's playing. She was such a. Just a good faith, which of course she's operating. Good faith for you. You know, I feel like she had. She was very discerning, but also I think we were able to establish trust quickly where she wanted. You know, she's a great question asker too. So I think she wanted our opinion as well as our observations and recommendations. And I think she did a really good job oftentimes of kind of poking behind that recommendation to go, hey, what are the concerns or the variables that shape this? Where she wanted to know the why. And she obviously was doing everything in her interest for You. And she was doing it in a manner that was, I think, so responsible for the sake of, like, she was able. I told her, you sure she needs to write a book about this whole thing too? Because her ability to go from. And I'm. My husband's kidnapped. What does this mean to really be. She was able to live in it, but be on top of it, to also go, what are the. What's the larger context and effects and impact of all of this, not just on the family, but on Haiti, on the other. Other missionaries who are there, on the kidnapping environment at large, on gangs, larger security risk, on even the, you know, national context of US Haiti relations and all that stuff. So she's such a quick study, I think was shrewd and assessing who she could trust and who she couldn't. Multiple times. I just found her to be so discerning with people. You know, I'd be like, you know, I'm. She's sharing a conversation or something with me, and I'd ask one question. She'd be like, austin, I don't. You don't trust these people, do you? Like, here's what I'm actually thinking. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I think you're right on. Yeah. Like, I think that person's a bad actor. You really want to know what I think? I wouldn't work with him. And so. And she was remarkably steady, I think is the last thing I'd say through it, which wasn't this faux strength. Right. It wasn't put on. I think that was her, you know, I mean, her and Aaron and I, we prayed together multiple times. Like, my background's a ministry guy. Right. It's a missionary in country. And so I think we had what I'd call value alignment and a unified faith that we're going to trust God through a really difficult situation and we're going to make flawed decisions with inadequate information and move forward trusting that God will be good. And so anyway, faithful, resilient, crazy, discerning. Her and Aaron were awesome to work with. And. And she's pretty remarkable person.
- [27:09]
B
Yeah, awesome. Amen. Amen to all those things. I remember her sharing with me that there was a progression for her from where in the beginning, she was kind of deferring to you and your team. Meaning, what do you think? What do you think? What should we do? Right. Tell me what to do. Of course, she's coming in with 100% ignorance.
- [27:33]
A
Right.
- [27:33]
B
And naivete to kidnapping resolution efforts.
- [27:37]
A
Right.
- [27:38]
B
And she just wants the experts to be in Charge, Right. And she'll, you know, sign on the dotted line and you guys handle it. Right. She told me about when she realized how unfair that was for you guys to be making mortal decisions on my behalf and for her to be outsourcing that level of responsibility and. And began to take it on herself and start asking those discerning questions so that she could step up to that plate and make decisions on her own behalf and therefore absolving you of the responsibility to do so. And I was. I just was dumbfounded when she told me about that progression.
- [28:17]
A
It's like, wow, what a transformation, right? I mean, that's. That's a pill right there, right? And the strength and backbone to see that, acknowledge it, and to step up the plate to be responsible for it. Right. Meanwhile, she's, you know, I'm sure, running kids around the school. You know, there are multiple times we get a call and, you know, she texts me back like, I'm in the. I got kids in the car. Or we're running to practice, Right. Because she's trying to keep all the plates running as, you know, like that you get comfortable with like a. There's this level of duplicity almost that, you know, it can feel manipulate. It's not manipulative. For the protection of everyone. And the mission, that's a. That's a hard place to live. And it was a long place for everyone to live. Right. Her more than anyone on. On your case. Yeah. And really remarkable. Absolutely correct on that kind of transformation. For sure.
- [29:16]
B
Yeah. Okay. You make the ransom payment, the first rent payment that's actually received. That's day 28. Then that night, I talk on the phone with Billy. He's like, you know, they. We paid. They agreed to give you up, and they didn't. And they're demanding the 100k again. And tell me about the night of day 28. So that's following the failed ransom attempt. So you guys deliver the money again, gets the money, and they won't give me up. And I remember, I get on the phone with Billy, and Billy explains that to me again. I'd already received it from Bad Copied, already yelled it in my face. But we talked about it again, and I said, yeah, no, I. I get it. I didn't tell him I was about to escape, but I had already decided, yeah, don't worry, I'm going out the window. I'll see you in a little bit, I hope. But, yeah, you guys don't know any of that. So tell me. Tell me what's happening. On your end, you know, I'm sure you're not particularly surprised but you know what, what else is going through your.
- [30:24]
A
Yeah, that's right. And they're running their, their play on payment and, and treating it like the first of many. And so we are resetting once again. And so these, we felt like we kept running. It had to have felt so frustrating for Aaron and Mary. I'm going, Mary, we've got to reset again. We're running the same talking points and the same communication play again because we've got to re. Establish trust and rules and, and what the playing field looks like. And so, and yeah, I forgot that how, how many turnovers we actually had with respect to who the decision maker was because that's the other side is sometimes you, you get a different negotiator but you got the same decision maker. And so there's varying levels of autonomy that a given negotiator has. That's true on both sides. Right. But you know it was, it was interesting on, on us discerning. We're trying to get beneath that behind it going who actually is making the decision? Did they just do a change out on the front office guys? And the same dude called the shots and so we're, we feel like we're back at square one and again just trying to, trying to reset with them on it.
- [31:43]
B
So, so that's going to take, you know, the time that it's going to take. I remember I don't hear from you guys till I think day 38.
- [31:56]
A
Yep.
- [31:59]
B
It's a ways.
- [32:00]
A
Right.
- [32:01]
B
And I remember Billy telling me, hey, we've been trying to talk to you. We've been trying to call it because I was mad. So I'm in solitary at that point, right. Because everybody else is gone. Right. And, and I'm in solitary and, and I, I forget what debt. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's 38. Talking to him, to Billy, I'm like dude, like you gotta call me, you gotta talk to me. You don't have to negotiate with those guys. But I gotta talk to somebody. Be my friend. Will you be my friend, Billy? Anyway, do you remember on what's happening like it. Was it really eight days between your efforts to reach out to those guys or tell me what was happening on your side?
- [32:44]
A
Oh no, no. So when an accord is broken there's like this process of, you know, how do you repair. Right. Because it's actually both, it's in both parties interest to repair it and to be talking. I mean we wanted to One, your side may change. The situation hasn't changed. The narrative is still the same. Payments that have been made or attempts to do them or agreements that have been made need to be honored or they need to be overtly addressed and reframed. And so we're, it's kind of like somebody bringing in a new negotiator just thinking, hey, we get to free, we get to match reset. And our goal is going, no, you don't. We're going to take that reset button off the table. No, you don't. Here's the terms, here's expectations, you know, and sometimes those are agreed to and sometimes they're one side saying, we will not move on it and we won't communicate further with you unless you honor and respect it.
- [33:40]
B
Yeah.
- [33:40]
A
And so, you know, that was important. I think it's the reason that ultimately we were able to do a live exchange for you. I think that speaks to a level of trust and credibility that we were able to build mutually, if that's possible to say, with the final actors on their side. But we wanted to communicate a lot of frustration, a lot of broken trust, a lot of loss of credibility. We were, we were also, you know, we're also always working multiple plays, right? Yeah, I mean, there's, there's options, other ways to get you out. And, and we were gonna, you know, we're, we're gonna work every play and always do the one that seems in your best interest. And so anyway, we were, we were pursuing that, but we were always reaching out. Sometimes if they didn't agree to acknowledging certain facts, then we'd say, okay, well, we'll talk tomorrow. And we just, we'd get off and let them know, you know, until you address the following things. We'd say, keep feeding and keep feeding. Jeff, you know, better be alive. If he's not alive, you don't get, you don't get anything. And so anyway, we were, we were willing to be aggressive in that. And you know, and Mary was, she was committed to us being consistent and anchoring on that despite the, you know, there's a short term cost to that. Right. The short term cost is what if they, what if they're going to do it this time? Right. What if they're really, we can trust them. What if this is a new guy? Right. And, and yeah, no, we've got to take the long term. We're going to maintain a long term mindset of here's what we agreed to. We have to establish trust and terms. And until we do so and until we see, you know, validation of that along the path to that exchange or outcome, then, then we walk. And so it's a, it's a step deal. Yeah, we were, we were trying to reset that for eight days and, and.
- [35:50]
B
Okay, so 8:38, I talked to Billy for the first time and I, I tell him, hey dude, I, I think they're ready to deal, right? Everybody else is gone. Which is probably not news to you at that point, but because I think you had been debriefing people as they were being released. But you, you know, I'm by myself. I'm trying to sell the idea like hey dude, it really feels like they're ready to get rid of me because they've been getting rid of every run one. Billy's not having it. He's like dude, we're going to work non monetary solutions right now and you just sit tight and don't worry. And I, I ask him for details and he stonewalls me. It's like, yeah, I'm not going to tell you anything. Goober. And somehow the gang blinks, right? Because I give the phone back to I think so. And he walks away. And then the next day, day 39 I talked to Billy and Billy's like, hey, I think we got an accord. It's going to be a live exchange. Sit tight, right? Can you tell me about that or do you remember anything about that kind of moment when they, they blink, so to speak. Or at least it seems like that on my side.
- [36:55]
A
Yeah, vividly. Which I just pulled up my notes from this window. Something else that was really important that was a variable here is we, we came to the conclusion that not only did you have a hands off director like the general was read in and he'd given directions, but absolutely believe that there was theft within their ranks. And so payments that may or may not have been made, different messaging and you know, whatever was being passed on to the general. And so you have distrust within, you know, their own ranks because we knew what was getting paid for other people we attract, who their communication handlers, couriers were, all of that, you know, and obviously things were intensifying leading up to that with, with some of the treatment of people, you guys inside. That was a really difficult variable to navigate where oftentimes we're trying to penetrate through the lead negotiator to get to the general, which we also had other ways of getting to him because of our relationships in history and country. So we're actually back channeling message directly to, to them because we also, you know, we wanted them to know you have low level guys who are stealing from you. Yeah. Which is pretty interesting thing to be doing. So I guess no honor amongst thieves. But that one added a lot of complexity to it. When we were obviously signed on the agreement on a live exchange and that would get agreed to and then they would renege. They would get agreed to and then we, man, that happened for.
- [38:50]
B
You know.
- [38:51]
A
Several, several days leading up to the actual exchange where they would say, no, you're going to come to us. And then they would try to renege, thinking that we would, would come in there and we're going, heck no. There's zero chance we're coming into the house or up to that location where you were putting more risk. You know, that was something Mary was firm on. We would get hopeful and then they would try to change it last minute and we'd walk. And so we were, we were really adamant about a live exchange. Really adamant about. No, the amount is the amount. We're not moving forward past it. And so they kind of, they tried to do the bait and switch several times, which is what caused that to end up being a week when it could have been, you know, that first day around day 38, 39. Yeah.
- [39:40]
B
Okay, tell me about day 43. Right? You, you finally get an accord. How did you, how did you make that final accord that ended up working?
- [39:51]
A
We said the same thing that we'd said for seven days and they finally did it. That simple. We're going to do exactly what we said we're going to do. But until you guys are going to hold up your end, we're not going to change it or adjust it. We've made an agreement. They would go, no, you know, we're going to change. We said, no, we made an agreement. If you're not going to do the agreement, then call us tomorrow. That just kept happening. Right. And so on day 43, they finally had the motivation to just, you know, do what you say you're going to do. It's not that complicated. But like, you know, you said many times, boys and their animals and their, they're just freaking terrible people and they're coming back. You never know. Wish I knew the toxicity level of a guy when we were negotiating with him at a given point. Right. How late was he up the night before? What's he still on? Who's he raped in the meantime? That kind of stuff. And they finally have the motivation, which is probably driven by either their boss or some element of fear. But something causes Them to actually do what they said they're going to do. And so when it did, said, okay, here's the next step, and they walked it out. Of course that happens. Right. You're just on live communication cycles every five minutes. Right. And there's so many potential points of failure, so many tools for. We're leveraging everything we can on validation. Right. Because it's not just the only people in the field aren't that person. Right. There's other assets that we have who we're bouncing stuff off of or getting visuals on and pressure checking everything with. Anyway, it's just a communication madhouse. But yeah, the team on the ground just absolutely crushed it in terms of doing an exchange that was secure with. With, you know, protections around it for you and for everyone else. And of course, we get a curveball because the courier decides he's gonna. He's gonna steal a couple hundred bucks. So all of us are about to lose our minds on that one. We're going, you got it.
- [42:10]
B
I'll tell the audience a little bit about that. So you may, some of you who've listened to this the previous episodes may know that from my perspective, there was, you know, maybe 120 bucks missing in Haitian. Good. And what got relayed to my team was there was $2,000 worth that was missing. Right. Give or take. And so what you learn from that is the courier was taking a piece of the action. Right. And, and clearly that was already set up between Chef 2 Bad Cop and the courier. Right. So courier's getting paid. He's double dipping, Right. Because he's getting paid by my team above the table. And then he figured out this ruse to get some more. And clearly that worked.
- [43:01]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, that was.
- [43:05]
B
Anybody ever call that guy and say, hey, what the heck? Like, we know you stole a bunch.
- [43:09]
A
Of money from us. So, you know, there's certain guys that don't get used again and they're guys that do that stuff. But yeah, you know, there's a scary moment.
- [43:20]
B
Yeah. So, so then we get that worked out. You send him back in with the extra cash. Do you remember what you heard after that?
- [43:27]
A
We, you know, we knew the time frame. We have checkpoints for him coming in because we're communicating with him directly, but we're also, you know, we're tracking him. Yeah. And then we get the call. Exchanges is live. You know, you getting. Getting the call that you're in the car and, you know, hearing your voice and getting a picture of you and pulling up to the Marriott, like, that was a good moment for us. That was a sweet moment for us. You know, at the same time, you're, you're immediately transitioning to, hey, is everybody going to do what they said they're going to do here? You know, you're, I think we, I appreciate it so much. Like, you get there, but, you know, nightmare's not over. Right. You know, and the temptation is to, you know, you think it's, it's over, but there's not a, there's the illusion always of a finish line with this stuff. You know, you, you get home and, you know, we, we'd set up. Mary and Aaron really talked to Aaron a lot about this during everything. And Mary, where, man, just like the re. Engagement, it's like, you know, it's like a, After a deployment or something where it's, it's a tough deal, you know, and you're not, you know, you're not going to talk to anybody that they can identify with it. And at the same time, you're, you're jumping back in. But I remember thinking of you at the hotel going, man, he's not going to trust anybody. And, and I wouldn't if I were him. Right. We hated some of the logistics around that. And so we were just really adamant about who was there and who was going to be present for you and, and, and who, who is responsible. And then, of course, you know, you. We just don't trust anything. So we're, we're just comms checking everything. The whole time.
- [45:14]
B
I remember checking everyone's id, Anyone who knew what room I was going to be. I wanted to see their id. Anybody who's walking behind me, I wanted to see their id. Right. You know, if it wasn't FBI, then I wanted them somewhere else. Right. Or somebody that I knew. That Dave guy, I don't even know if that's his real name. I was okay with him being around because he got me out. Right. And then I remember having this feeling like I just wanted to fight everyone. Like, it wasn't that I wanted to, it's just that my body was ready to. Right. Like, let's see that idea. And if this doesn't go well, we are in trouble.
- [45:59]
A
Which is, of course, an irrational. Yeah, I think it's perfectly rational. I mean, you've been, you know, you're, you're actually demonstrating and having to, you're having to maintain a position of, and posture of restraint. You know, your entire captivity. You're a big dude, you know, I know you lost some, some Pounds. There's not a, you know, one on one. I'm betting on you 100 out of 100 times in that environment, you know. You know, but it's just, man, I, I can only imagine the, the frustration and, you know, that's pent up and that. I mean, we're super concerned about that for you and trying to maintain like, hey, this isn't the finish line. We gotta, we gotta support you through it and make sure you're on an airplane and back to the States. In that. I've got two things that are kind of burned into my mind. Picture you like in the back of the kind of ambulance there and checking on you. And the one of you and Mary in the car outside of Miami Airport. That was, that was a big one. Yeah, man.
- [47:15]
B
Well, dude, Austin, yet again, thank you for, for everything. That'll never be enough. But I am certainly grateful that I've gotten a great friend and colleague out of it because it, it's been a joy to collaborate with you and trying to help out in Haiti ever since. And, and I see that being man. Lifelong partnership. So grateful for that. And of course, hear me now, hear me now.
- [47:43]
A
I got you back, man. Honor to call you a friend. We were just a volunteer, right? So you got the free surgeon. We're just glad you're here, you know. And it, it's an important story. I appreciate you having the courage to tell it. It's amazing how quick the criticism can come. I'm sure that, that you'll never talk about on here, that people are going to bring to you an accusation, a motive or something else just as a character witness to you and Mary and the kind of people you are. The last thing you want is more unwelcomed publicity. What you're trying to do is make sure that a story is told about a country that the world's forgotten about and it, you know, consistently overlooked and, and it's a real problem. It's a real problem to be able to see it in the context of U.S. interest and national security. It's a massive problem to overlook the fact you've got over 500,000 kids who haven't been to school in five years. You've got a generation that's being lost. And the number of murders, rape and kidnappings are understated to A factor probably 20 times is our guess. It's not okay because you have a platform, because you're an American citizen and capable and competent to deliver it. These are going on daily with Haitians for what would seem like very insignificant amounts to Americans here and the fear and oppression that people lived in in that country, it's not a new thing. This is a six year failed state thing. It's not okay. Now we're. We're heartbroken. We sit here and do this today, you know, last night, you know, three Americans are murdered, you know, by gangs, you know, right in Port au Prince.
- [49:35]
B
Yeah. Just a few miles from the airport, man.
- [49:39]
A
We're just, you know, we're praying, what's it going to take for people of integrity and character to care, to apply pressure to their representative? You know, Haitians as well as Americans, we all have officials who are accountable and work for the people and for the US Government to support the security objectives of that country to put an end to this. It's got to happen. So thanks for raising your voice on it, man. It means a ton. And anything that we can do to help support Haiti and bring some peace, we want to see it. Appreciate your courage.
- [50:17]
B
No, thanks, Austin. I appreciate that. You know, I'm excited to get to the next phase of this podcast where we really start digging deep and educating the audience, the viewers on what it's going to take to move things forward in Haiti. And hopefully you'll come back and be part of that as we try to get a massive amount of Americans, and I should say, the international community, educated on what's next for Haiti and what needs to be next.
- [50:45]
A
I love it. I love it. Don't stop. And anytime. You know that. Always behind you. Jeff, thanks, buddy.
- [50:50]
B
Appreciate you taking the time. You're the man. Say hi to the family for you, for me, and thank them for allowing you to take time away yet again for. For Jeff.
- [51:00]
A
You do the same to yours, brother. I'll see you guys.
- [51:03]
B
Love you, brother. I'll see you too.
- [51:05]
A
Bye. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Stimpak podcast and will subscribe, rate, review and share it with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for listening. This podcast has been brought to you by stimpac, Inc. Copyright2024. All rights reserved.