43 Days to Freedom - Mary Interview

Summary

The STIMPACK Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: 43 Days to Freedom - Mary Interview
Host/Author: Jeff Frazier
Release Date: May 29, 2024

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The STIMPACK Podcast, host Jeff Frazier welcomes his wife, Mary Frazier, to discuss the harrowing 43-day ordeal that led to Jeff's release from captivity in Haiti. Mary provides an intimate look into the negotiations, emotional struggles, and strategic maneuvers employed to secure Jeff's freedom. This detailed interview offers listeners a profound understanding of the complexities involved in such high-stakes situations.

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Establishing the First Ransom Payment (Day 27-28)

Mary recounts the initial stages of the ransom negotiation process, highlighting the immense effort required to gain the gang's trust.

Mary (03:06): "It takes a lot more time and energy... to establish an agreement. You have to have so many phone calls so many days in a row."

By midday on Day 28, the first ransom payment attempt failed, marking a pivotal moment in their struggle.

Mary (05:21): "I think it took until about day 28 when we started having agreements for that first large payment for the gang and our group to be established enough to even have an agreement."

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Emotional Roller Coaster Leading to Mother's Day (Day 24-32)

As Mother's Day approached, Mary and her team intensified their efforts, balancing hope with tempered expectations. Mary describes how external communications reinforced the bleak outlook, yet faith remained a cornerstone of their approach.

Mary (06:03): "We're probably not going to get Jeff with this first payment... these stories always lifted our spirits back at home."

During this period, Mary and her support network engaged in fasting and extra prayers, seeking miracles amid mounting challenges.

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Negotiation Challenges and Strategic Shifts (Days 30-35)

Mary outlines the complexities of maintaining communication without appearing desperate, likening the negotiations to a strategic game where timing and discretion were paramount.

Mary (09:20): "There’s so much that goes into every phone call that is made."

The release of their associate, DJ, on Day 30, provided a glimmer of hope and validated the effectiveness of their non-monetary strategies.

Mary (11:03): "We knew he was also in the hospital... that was maybe our miracle that DJ got out."

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Expanding Negotiation Strategies and Media Involvement (Days 35-38)

As the situation intensified, Mary and her team expanded their tactics beyond traditional negotiations. They engaged influential government contacts and leveraged media channels to apply additional pressure on the gangs.

Mary (22:45): "We purposefully had kept it as quiet as possible so that no one would know. It would keep Jeff there longer if the media got involved."

This multifaceted approach aimed to combine political advocacy with grassroots support, increasing the likelihood of Jeff's release.

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The Critical Days Leading to Freedom (Days 38-43)

Mary describes the intense final negotiations, including a failed live exchange attempt due to a financial shortfall, which only delayed the inevitable.

Mary (30:08): "I just remember it took days to get there... those few days were very, very frustrating."

Despite setbacks, persistent efforts and steadfast faith culminated in a successful negotiation on Day 43. Mary vividly recalls the emotional crescendo as Jeff was finally released.

Mary (39:30): "They were able to get the remaining amount and head back to the meeting location and actually receive Jeff."

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Freedom Day and Emotional Reunion (Day 43)

The culmination of their 43-day struggle was marked by an emotional reunion. Mary shares the overwhelming relief and cautious optimism that followed Jeff's release.

Mary (42:46): "Today is the anniversary of the day you got out."

The initial interactions post-release were brief yet poignant, as Jeff grappled with trauma while Mary focused on providing comfort and understanding.

Mary (44:20): "It helped me realize, okay, we need to go slow. We need to give each other a lot of grace and a lot of space."

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Aftermath and Moving Forward

Mary reflects on the profound impact of Jeff's ordeal on their family and relationship, emphasizing the importance of patience and mutual support in the healing process.

Mary (45:46): "Selfishly, I didn't want to share you. I was like, yeah, no, I need a minute with my husband."

The episode concludes with a promise of future discussions about their reunion and the path to healing, underscoring the resilience and unwavering dedication that defined their journey.

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Notable Quotes

• Mary (03:06): "It takes a lot more time and energy... to establish an agreement."
• Mary (06:03): "We're probably not going to get Jeff with this first payment..."
• Mary (09:20): "There’s so much that goes into every phone call that is made."
• Mary (22:45): "We purposefully had kept it as quiet as possible so that no one would know."
• Mary (39:30): "They were able to get the remaining amount and head back to the meeting location and actually receive Jeff."
• Mary (42:46): "Today is the anniversary of the day you got out."
• Mary (44:20): "It helped me realize, okay, we need to go slow."
• Mary (45:46): "Selfishly, I didn't want to share you. I was like, yeah, no, I need a minute with my husband."

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Conclusion

This episode of The STIMPACK Podcast offers a deeply personal and strategic account of Mary Frazier's role in securing Jeff's release from captivity. Through resilience, strategic negotiation, and unwavering faith, Mary navigated an extraordinarily challenging situation to reunite her family. Listeners gain valuable insights into the complexities of hostage negotiations and the profound emotional toll such experiences entail.

For those interested in understanding the intricacies of interventions in conflict zones and the human stories behind them, this episode serves as an enlightening and moving testament to perseverance and hope.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Stimpak Podcast. Stimpak is a Haiti focused think tank and interventional ngo. Thank you for listening.

[B]

Let's do this. So, hey, everyone. Welcome to stimpak podcast, the 43 Days to Freedom series. I have great news for you. We have successfully gotten my wife, Mary Frazier, the one and only, to join us on video. She's super excited about it. I'm sure you can see it on her face. Those of you who are watching on video. I love her so much. So I'm actually upstairs. You probably tell. I'm in one of my daughter's rooms. She's in the normal Stimpak podcast spot downstairs in the music room. But here we go. We're going to try to do this. So I. We don't want to be overly prescriptive because we don't really know where to start. I think there's so much cover. So we'll probably bounce around a little bit. Probably similar to the Stephanie interview and, you know, see what we can cover and see what we can get through and, yeah. Progress through this story. So, Mary, thanks for doing this.

[C]

Yes, you're welcome. Those who know me well know I hate this kind of stuff. She super does, but I'm here for my husband.

[B]

She's one of those heroes in the world who refuses to accept her hero status. But that's okay. We'll. We'll thrust it on her nonetheless. Mary, it's been a hectic day today. We've just been, you know, hustling through our life. We just finished school pickup. I gave you a little bit of notice. Do you have anything that kind of jumps at you, at you where you want to start? You want to start early? You know, the audience hasn't heard from you since like day 15 or so. Anything kind of early on, or do you want to kind of pick up maybe around day 28, which is kind of the. The first ransom payment day or attempted ransom payment day move forward? Does that sound okay? Would you prefer to do that?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's fine. There's just always like so much that was happening. But I think it took until about day 28 when we started having agreements for that first large payment for the gang and our group to be established enough to even have an agreement. And that takes a lot more time and energy and just time than I think anybody really realizes for the gang to trust that you're going to do what you're going to say and for us to trust that the gang's going to do what they're going to say. You have to have so many phone calls so many days in a row. These gangs are. They're knuckleheads. Like, they don't know anything about the real world, you know, technology, like, all the things. Like, they don't know anything about any of that and actually how banks work and all those things. So anyway, it just takes a long time to establish an agreement. And when we finally had that, was it around day 27. Is that what you said, the first agreement?

[B]

Yeah, 27. As best as I could tell, we had an agreement. And then the first time I really learn about it, that it's kind of done. Done is 28. Like midday day 28. And then that's the failed ransom payment day is 28.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So we've been. I've been being coached a lot leading up to that, that there's almost zero percent chance that we'll actually get you from that. But of course, I'm holding on to that 2% chance that we will and praying for all the miracles and trying to not let my faith get in the way of getting that miracle and trying to just trust that. That. That could be the. The time. But I'm also tempering my expectations because everyone around me is saying there's no way. And I think it was around. I've been kind of going through my journal just to prepare for this. But I think it was around day 24 or 25 that Stephanie's mom reached out to me and. And I had many people reaching out to me over, you know, that six weeks. As people would get released that were there with Jeff, they would reach out to me. They all had my phone number memorized. And even Stephanie had taught her mom the little jingle. And she called me. And I remember every phone call I got from a Haitian number, like, I wasn't even allowed to answer it. But she left a message and sounded so sweet and just sounded like she needed help getting her daughter out. She had paid multiple times and corroborating, like, her story with the other people that have gone out. Everyone always spoke so highly of Jeff and how much she was helping everybody and giving blessings and just kind of leading everybody in prayer multiple times a day, which always. Those kinds of stories always lifted our spirits back at home for our. For me to be able to relay those things to my kids. There was very few things I could relay to the children. So when I would get things like that that I could say it was. It was fun, and they would hang on those words and those thoughts, sorry, my brain's all over the place. There's.

[B]

So you mentioned that Stephanie's mom called you on day something.

[C]

That information was helping me like, have better expectations because she was basically saying she had already paid four times and she didn't know what to do. She wasn't going to give them any more money. She didn't know what to do. She didn't know what to do. And, and that information was helping me to be like this. We're probably not going to get Jeff with this first payment. And I remember we. Ellie, our negotiator, and Austin, our team lead, both. I told him about that experience and they both tried to help Stephanie's team start to give them some, some good advice because they had paid so many times and, and how to deal with. And they were, they were able to help her and their negotiating team a little bit. But anyway, tell us a little bit.

[B]

About the emotional roller coaster on day 28.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, it was just basically preparing myself for the worst and hoping for the best. I don't really remember too much about the 28th. The 20. So we're. Well, we're preparing for Mother's Day. I remember that we're a few days away from Mother's Day and I had had some pretty strong impressions that that could be. That you could potentially be home by Mother's Day. And so that was definitely adding to my hope.

[B]

And what is, what, what day is Mother's Day? Like, not date, but like, I think it's day 32. Okay.

[C]

So we, like, we knew we had a few days to make it happen and then potentially have you home by then. But I remember in, in our religion, we, we do fasting for extra faith and extra prayers and extra miracles. And we had decided to do one. I can't remember maybe the Sunday before Mother's Day, maybe the week before. And so many people, so many friends and family, I mean, not that many friends knew, but we have a large family and all of them and the close friends and the, and the people on our team, everyone decided that we would, we would fast and pray extra hard for that miracle that day. I remember. Well, I don't want to skip ahead. When they didn't release you, was it day 28 that the actual payment went down? Okay, yeah. So when they didn't release you and the, the days that payments are made, you're. I'm just. You're on pins and needles the entire day. Like, the entire day. You're just have no idea what could or Couldn't happen. And I'm just. I mean, I'm always glued to my phone. But even more so on those days that there could potentially be something that happens. And. And when we finally got the news that they didn't let you go, that was just so devastating. I remember I was in the kitchen and my sister was here with me, and I just lost it, of course. And pretty quickly, I remember Austin calling and telling the team, like, it's okay. Like, we knew they were going to do this. It's all part of the plan. Like, part of the thing we have to stick to is we have to keep. Like our story can't change. Like, we still have to stick to. This is what we have. This is all you're ever going to get. And you just better let Jeff go. And he from his expertise has had told me, you know, sometimes they can even let people go up to 48 hours after a payment is made if they truly believe you're not going to pay anymore. And so of course, that's the hope that I started to hold on to in that moment. And so, yeah, so that's kind of how that. And then.

[B]

So you're kind of riding on. On that. That low from. Okay, we hoped we were going to get them out, and then it didn't happen. And then tell us a little bit about the. The next couple of days. So, you know, those. Those would be day, you know, 30, 31ish. Do you learn?

[C]

It was really. It was really just about holding our ground because that was everything that was being taught to me is we have to hold our ground. We can't be the weak ones. We have to stay firm on where we're at, keep our position, basically.

[B]

Was there a lot of contact? Like, did you have opportunities to kind of play tough and express, hey, we're not.

[C]

That was one of the other things is they. They didn't want to have too much contact because they didn't want to make it seem like we were the desperate ones. Like we wanted to. It's almost like you're playing this game where, like, if you're the one that's always calling and annoying them, that's like, they know they've got you. And so there's this a little bit of a committee every time a phone call is made. Like, is it. Is it the appropriate amount of time? Did we wait the appropriate amount of time? It's almost like you're dating. Like, did we wait the appropriate amount of time to call again or. Or is it not the right Time yet. And you're always checking intel of the. The climate on the ground. Like, are the gangs partying right now? Are they battling right now? Because we have, you know, assets all in the area all the time. Like, is. Is this even a productive time to call? And there's so much that goes into every phone call that is made. And so, yeah, crazy.

[B]

So you have it as day 30 that DJ gets out? I think I had it as 31, but regardless, you hear that DJ gets out. Do you remember how you heard that?

[C]

I can't remember who told us that. It might have been our assets and country, because I feel like Austin said that. And then we started trying to reach out to him through Diego and. And other people.

[B]

Okay, awesome.

[C]

But we knew he was also in the hospital. They had taken him straight to the hospital. He was having stomach issues. So it took us, I think, maybe even, like, 24 hours to be able to talk to him. And I distinctly remember feeling, even in that moment that we found out he was released, which was in my journals. I think you and I are always off of a day. But anyway, in my journals, it was day 30, that that was maybe our miracle that DJ got out. And I was trying to feel peaceful about that. And. And I knew even in that moment that you would have a hard time leaving without all your people out. And so every person that got out, I was grateful. Cause I was like, okay, every person that gets out, it's going to make it easier for him to actually leave.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

And so I was trying to be grateful for that in that moment, even though I was like, this is kind of the wrong miracle, but it's okay. I'll take it.

[B]

Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. Do you want to keep going?

[C]

I have that. You called me on day 31. I have quick notes, and I have my long journal, and I'm trying to just go off of my quick notes, because that's fine.

[B]

So eventually, I call you. What do you remember from that call?

[C]

I. Which one? Do you remember which call that is. Help me remember which call that was.

[B]

Yeah. So. So I call you twice on the same day. Both are essentially to get help, to try to provide evidence of my ability to repay a loan to DJs loan shark buddy. Right. So I'm trying to get this loan to pay the 100k and you're stonewalling me the. The whole time.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I. There's so much that Jeff and I have, like, figured out since he's been home that we were miscommunicating on so many times. But at that point in time, I'm still under the impression that every time I talk to Jeff, I'm talking to the gang and giving up any information is detrimental. And I'm still have this script that I'm supposed to do that we can't give money where accounts are being locked down. FBI won't allow us to bring cash in country. And I. Everyone is telling me that is the best thing to do to get him home quickest. The quicker the gang realizes that he is not a big dollar sign, that he will never be a big dollar sign. There's no way to get more than a little amount as. As soon as they actually come to terms with that, the quicker we can get him home. And so the more that Jeff works against us and keeps trying to figure out ways to get that money, the worse off everybody is, because it's kind of like starting over with the gang. And we, Our team on the outside, was trying so hard to discredit Jeff and to even on our phone calls to tell. Tell the gang that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Like, he's just a missionary there doing humanitarian aid. Like, he doesn't have it. He was scared when he said that he doesn't know what he's talking about. And, yeah, it was awful. I hated our phone calls. I hated them because it was, you know, the worst.

[B]

Just to be clear to the viewers, I know oftentimes I'm trying to explain my side of things and, like, what things look like from the inside looking out. Sometimes those might seem like reasonable perspectives. But it's important to establish from. For all of you that my team on the outside and being led by my wife and Austin, they were always right. Their perspectives were always more correct with maybe zero exceptions. Right. I would have to think really hard. So while my perspective seemed rational from the inside, with the limited information that I had, they were always wise in managing me the way that they did. They got it wrong that I was being watched, and they. They could have communicated with me freely, but there's no way for them to have ever known that. Right. So instead they're doing this. This dance. And that produced a conflict between me and the outside repeatedly. But I don't want you to ever, ever think that they were wrong in the way that they were handling me, because they weren't. They were correct anyway.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it was just miscommunication a lot of times. But all the other thing. Yeah, the other thing that I think is Important that helped me stick to what I was being taught to do was they would. They would tell me if. If Jeff is in the driver's seat, and if Jeff keeps proving to the gang that he has multiple ways to get these streams of income, not only will they wait for him to get it, but they'll wait for him to get it from every single person that he said might get it for him. And they are totally happy to let him try every single option as long as it takes. So the quicker we could shut down every single option, the faster I get my husband home. So I kept on being more and more empowered to shut him down and play against him, because it actually got him to me quicker. And so I was on the sidelines constantly calling anybody we knew that we were close enough to that had my. That I knew Jeff might call and be like, do not answer a phone call from my husband. I promise you, it is the quickest way for us to get him out of there. And as soon as I explained that to them, everybody got on board so quickly. Even all these people that you were calling that I would call and convince to stop answering their phone.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it was working. Like, he kept finding new people that I hadn't thought of, and I'm like, no, man.

[B]

Those poor people. Gosh.

[C]

Well, everyone just wanted to help. And. And as soon as I understood that this was the best way to help, they were so on board. Like, it's just not something you ever think about. Why would you ever think about that? It's ridiculous.

[B]

It's a terrible position to put people in anyway. Okay, awesome.

[C]

You didn't put anybody in that position. The gang did.

[B]

Thank you. So, Day. Well, in the low 30s. So you. You guys debrief DJ. Do you remember how that went? Does anything stand out to you about that?

[C]

That was rough. I didn't debrief him. Austin did. But I listened to the recording of the call. It was probably an hour long. And he. He was definitely suffering from severe shock and just a lot of trauma. He was having some hallucinations about still being held, still being captive. Just my heart was just breaking. And then he was saying things that. About you being not well and not right in the mind, and. And all of these things that just sent all of us spinning and really escalated the team to just. I think it really lit a fire under everybody. Like, okay, like, we've been playing this the long game because we know we need to establish these, like, foundational things with the gang, but we need to, like, crank it up now, because I was also. This is, this is important. I was also being taught from other people and the FBI that when, when we reached the 30 day mark, it was like, okay, this is serious. And there's something that happens in the FBI when you reach the 30 day mark. It's like, now Jeff is most likely going to have serious PTSD and trauma and we're going to start preparing your family for all of that and you need to start learning about all of the ramifications for that and your family and your children, like, everyone's probably going to have some need, some therapy of some sort. And so we started going down that avenue and being taught and inter. And I had some phone calls and things about that as well around that point. And in my free time at night when I was going to sleep, I started reading up on just hostage PTSD and, and kidnapping PTSD and, and all of that. So that was my light reading at night.

[B]

Dumbest scrolling ever. Okay, good. Anything else you want to touch on? And you know, day 32, 33.

[C]

I mean, there was a lot of side storylines going on that we kind of haven't included in the podcast, but there were some active things happening with those side storylines that don't actually ever lead to your release, but it should. It could be interesting to the listeners to know that there was probably always at least four or five plays to get Jeff out. And we were always making sure that we were trying every single door because we didn't know which door was going to actually work and get them out. But, but there was a lot of things happening on those.

[B]

So it's, it's important for the audience to understand a little bit about how Haiti works. There's often accusations in Haiti that the politicians are working with the gangs or are sponsoring the gangs. And certainly that's true. Certainly there are corrupt players who have historically used the gangs as their, their brute squad of sorts and have. Have done atrocious things. And so that's on one end of the spectrum, you scoot over a little bit and you have politicians and businessmen who recognize the need to get things done. And the gangs are often standing in the way of getting those things done. And so they, you have to deal with them somehow or other. Right. For example, the gangs have the ability to take over the port at just about any time. And if you take over the port, you have a lot of control and that just wrecks the country. And so how do you get these gangs to stand down? Well, at times there are deals done. Right. That could Be cash. It could be favors or privileges in one way or another. It could be vehicles. Who knows how they, they do those deals. But those dialogue, those, those dialogue channels have to remain open. And so you can call that corruption if you want, but the reality is they have to do business, and they do. And our team knows that because they're, they're not naive. And so all of these what I've referred to as non monetary approaches or solutions have, are some sort of effort to influence that channel. Right? That, that channel where legitimate or perhaps even shady actors can be leveraged to influence the gangs. Right. The, the gangs are the, the villains, but on your way from villain to hero is lots of other steps. And my team was always trying to work all of those angles wherever they were, to try to figure something out, to apply pressure to the gang to let them let me out, especially after one ransom was paid. That should be enough. Right? And that plus some political pressure might do the trick. And, and so my team had, you know, various channels of that or versions of that at play at any time. Anything you want to add to that? Mayor?

[C]

Okay. Okay. So around this time, when we started cranking up all the dials, we, we had never gone to the media. We purposefully had kept it as quiet as possible so that no one would know. It would keep Jeff there longer if the media got involved. And so we were purposefully trying to keep that out. Everybody advised us to keep it out of the media. But now that we got word that DJ was out and he had told us that Jeff's conditions were not good, we started really cranking up some of these other avenues, one of which was potentially getting the media involved. The fact that Jeff is a veteran, was there doing humanitarian work, he's a clergy for our church. He had just all of these, these buzzwords, basically, annoying as that might be, that would pull on people's heartstrings and hopefully get Congress and senators to act. And before actually going to the media, we had several ties to influential parties in government and senators and State Department that we could approach to hopefully influence them to do something before we went to the media, using the media kind of as a, hey, we don't want to take it to the media, but this is what we need to have done. He's been there for 30 days. This is what's going on. This is his story. And every single person that was told that was immediately, that didn't know about it was immediately shocked that they hadn't heard about it. The letter was written, it was Circulated Congress, State Department, senators, and a lot of people started signing it. We had so many people that were wonderful. Gallagher's office, Rubio's office, so many people that were just really on board. The head of the va, Dennis something, I forget his name, I should know his name. But they were all demanding regular updates on your situation and really started to push our side agendas to make sure that things were actually happening and that the people in Haiti that needed to be contacted that would hopefully influence the gang would like that, that, that those phone chains would start to happen. And we were very convinced that those were starting to happen. And, and I was so convinced that they were starting to happen that I was feeling like at any point they might just let you go. At any point they could be scared enough to just do that. And, and we didn't know if our efforts that we were doing every day through the traditional route of paying the ransom and negotiating would work first or if the other phone call that was just like, dude, let him go. You took the wrong guy. We didn't know which would work first. And, but we were just playing all.

[B]

Those angles and, and I would assume that those things did have the influence that they, that was desired. So let's fast forward to day 38. I get on a phone call with Billy and he tells me that you guys are working on these like non monetary things and you think that those, those plays are starting to work. And, and I'm saying, okay, that might be true, but also it looks like the gang is, is willing to do business, you know, and, and maybe that is those two things kind of coming together where I get off the phone, I hand the phone back to the gang and they, they start to deal, right? They blink and, and say, hey, we're, we're ready to, to negotiate this, you know, vastly smaller number versus the 100k that they had been demanding the whole time. And, and so that gets our team, you know, back. Yeah, Negotiate.

[C]

Yeah. And it was also was Stephanie was released on day 34 or 35.

[B]

5.

[C]

35. 35. So that also was a pivotal point for our team because she was able to truly convince us that they didn't speak English, that she was interpreting for you. And so that changed the way we spoke to you finally. And we could tell you about some of these non monetary things we were doing and the people that were involved and the team you actually had and that you could trust us and you could stop trying to get the money by yourself. And I feel like that, that her getting out and and communicating so many of those things to us really put wind under our sails again for the first time in probably like 10 days and that. Yeah. And I mean, I remember writing in my journal about Stephanie, about how, Stephanie, I love you if you're watching how she was just really there for you those first, you know, 35 days, someone to talk to and just go through it with so you're not alone. And then there for me at the end, really building me up and helping me know reality. And that was so, so helpful. And she's such a strong, amazing human. You can feel her strength when you talk to her. So anyway, that was really cool. And so she was able to make it so that we started just telling you so many things, like I. We started texting you so much information all the time just so you knew what was going on.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that was really fun when we got to that point that we could tell you some of these. And just some of the amazing people that were getting involved at these higher levels that really cared and really were totally interested and invested in getting you home.

[B]

Awesome. Let's fast forward. They come up with a deal on a ransom amount and that it's going to be a live exchange. That's day 38. And then we're work 38, 39, and then we're working on negotiating a location. And then there's like this ruse on day 40, and that all falls apart. Can you tell us kind of your perspective?

[C]

What's the ruse? What do you mean by that?

[B]

You're going to try to lure them out. Right. Because you can't agree on a. On a location. Right. That's outside of their. We want a neutral zone.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Which doesn't really exist. And so your team is trying to essentially draw the gang out with me for that live exchange.

[C]

Yeah, I don't remember a ruse. I just remember we couldn't agree on a spot and we had a different definition of what the stadium was. I remember that.

[B]

Yes, that's right.

[C]

Maybe that's what was confusing.

[B]

Now, the, the. The ruse was that I use the term ruse because that guy supposedly called Dave calls me and is pretending to be this kind of innocent bystander. Hey, my buddy told me to bring this money, you know, to the stadium. I'm. I'm here waiting, you know.

[C]

Oh, got it, got it.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. And, and I try to solve the problem by saying, hey, you know, give it to my buddy dj, he'll bring it in.

[C]

Yeah. So it was really hard to. To find a location that both parties agreed on. We had a team on the ground that were really willing to help us and go up against the gangs. Very few people are. Will go up against the gangs. It's a terrifying thing. And so they knew their limits of where they were willing to go and not go, which areas they were willing to go into and not go into. And so agreeing on a specific location is almost impossible because the gang also, if you remember, is facing this whole. Bakol. Am I saying that right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Movement. And so they're truly afraid to leave their areas as well, because their lives are at risk if they leave their areas. So both parties are. Are truly nervous. And so it's. It's an almost impossible task to. To agree on a location. And that alone, trying to find a location that both parties agree on, it takes days. It takes days just of arguing back and forth, phone calls, like, probably like 10 phone calls a day, arguing back and forth. And that those few days were very, very frustrating. You were actually supporting the notion that the gangs were truly afraid to go as well. Is that accurate?

[B]

Yeah. And. And I was essentially saying they're. They're never gonna come out right there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And they shouldn't. Like, they'd be toast. You know, I. I was. I was understanding their immovability on.

[C]

Yeah. And. And probably under understanding that our team was not willing to either like that. It's also a bunch of dudes that are not willing to risk their life either. And so you're at a standstill. Do we want to jump to the part where we agree?

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[C]

On the location.

[B]

Yeah. That day.

[C]

I just remember it took days to get there. And I remember when you had that conversation with Billy and you got yelled at and you. Yeah, you got yelled at, and everything just kind of blew up. Everyone was like, there's no solutions here. This isn't going to work. Like, neither team is willing to move. And I just remember being so defeated. That was probably one. That was probably the darkest night that I had. And I think the next day, day 41, everyone just kind of was licking their wounds. I mean, we ended up burning Billy, our negotiator. He was just. It just had been too much. Six weeks. I mean, it just had been too much. And he's, you know, a normal guy with a family and a job. Like, it just had been too much for him, which is completely understandable. And I remember, I think, either that night or the next day having a conversation with Austin and basically just being like, I don't see how we ever fix this? Like, how do we ever. Like, if you're saying these guys won't move and we're saying our guys won't move, I don't know how this ever changes. Like, it's not. Nothing's going to happen. And I was just feeling like we have no options. And, and I don't remember what he said, but I remember feeling like, yeah, okay, we, we got to change something. We got to come up. We have to have a different approach. Like, we all were. Like, we can't just keep hoping that we find a location that works. This isn't going to happen. And that, I think was a good turning point. And I think it was either day. I think it was day 42. So Austin called me and I said, I think we're going to use Gunny's courier. I think we're going to try that. If you're okay with that and you okay that we're going to try it. And if you recall, he's the one that tried before and it didn't work. And you never know who the shady character is and who makes the deal not work. You just never know. And, and he was responsible for the last couple this, you know, no named courier. And so Austin said, this is one of our only plays right now. Do you want to try it? We are truly convinced the gang wants to do a deal. Whether they're receiving some of this pressure from some of these phone calls and the letters being circulated in, in both governments, whether they're feeling that or, or not, we're not sure. But we're truly convinced the gang wants to do something for the first time, we're actually convinced. And so he's like, if, if we can get this courier, Gunny's courier, to actually meet at a location that the gang is okay with, we'll have our guys staged. I think it was like a football field or two away from that spot. Do you remember how far it was?

[B]

It was probably a mile, but yeah, but not too far.

[C]

Okay. I just remember him telling me it was like going to be like a minute in between the cursor and when they finally got you to the good guys. So I was like, yes, let's try it. Please, let's try all of the things. And that was a good moment because I felt like we had a chance again for the first time in probably like 15 days. There was finally a chance because I knew that the non monetary things, I. I felt like they would work eventually. I really did. I had a lot of faith in all of the people that were getting involved and maybe they did. Yeah. And. And that was the other thing like that we. We'll never know what they did.

[B]

Yeah. But so grateful to the table. Yeah. Hugely grateful for those people.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Did we already mention their name? Rubio, Mike Gallagher, the dentist from the.

[C]

Va, And Menendez, I think, too.

[B]

Bob Menendez.

[C]

Yeah. Really great. People getting involved and demanding updates from, you know, the people that were handling the case.

[B]

Awesome. Okay, so let's go to the day for day 43. Do you remember that morning and kind of how it was getting pieced together?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wait, so you, you greenlight it, then what happens?

[C]

Well, we. So I was at day, day 40 and also day 42, we had set up comms and we had prepared those days as if the exchange was going to happen. I think day 41 was the only day we didn't. Those other two days, we had everything in place in case an accord was met and in case they agreed on a location. And so, you know, everybody was always in place, ready to do it. Like comms check at like 7am every morning, the guys rolling out. Everybody's in place in the, in the location as well as the Marriott with like the ambulance, like everything ready prepped, like planes ready with tickets for you both those nights, like everything. So to have all of that orchestrating all of those nights and Also on day 30, you know, all these things like always so, so, so helpful and then so many times it not happening is just awful. But anyway, so day 43, same thing. Wake up in the morning, they're doing getting everybody in position again in hopes that this time it works. You know, comps check and location check and counting the money again and making sure just everybody's a go. And I think it was around 2 or 3 that afternoon that we finally were ago we started the process of heading into the area once everybody's, you know, comms were good. And then I just remember pacing like I couldn't sit down that day. Yeah. And just going from room to room and praying wherever I was. My brother John was here and he was entertaining all the children and he was just here by himself. He would go around the house and fix things and he was making dinner. I remember he was making tacos because I eventually ate those tacos, which I didn't eat much when you were gone, as you know, anyway, so I just remember the moment that they said, he's, we're going in. We're going in to get him. And it was probably a half an hour before I got a message and the message was, the money is short. We're going back for more money. And we were just like, you've got to be kidding me. There's no way that money was short. And Austin was saying, that is such a bunch of bull. Like, there's no way, like, somebody pocketed some. Which he wasn't surprised about. But luckily the guys at the Marriott had the missing amount. And I'm sure we've already heard your side of this story, right? Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So they. They were able to get the remaining amount and head back to the meeting location and actually receive Jeff. And the first text I got was the proof. The first proof of life I got was your motorcycle driver had tried to take a selfie of you, like, while you're on the back. And I think it's like from here up, like, it's just like your forehead. And I'm like, who is that? Like, I need more than that. I'm like dying, like every second, I'm just dying. If it's actually you. If it's actually real, like, is it real? Like, is he out? And. And like, Austin is sending texts that it's. It's. We have him. And. And I still don't really believe it till I see you. And so I'm just like, are you. Are you sure? Like, I don't. And so he's trying to send me these pictures, but they're terrible. And then we get on A. A FaceTime call with Austin and maybe my brother Aaron, I can't remember. I think there might have been a third person on the call. And they're basically just reassuring me that, yes, they have you, and we're all just like bawling and you're headed to the Marriott, you're in the ambulance, and that they were gonna have you call me. You didn't have a phone, they kept your phone. And that they were gonna have you call me on one of their guys phone as soon as they could. But you were in severe shock. And. And then I remember it was probably what, like a half an hour, an hour before you called me?

[B]

Something like probably half an hour. Yeah.

[C]

And I remember not really wanting to tell anybody until I talked to you because, like, there was still a part of me that, like, didn't believe it. And so I didn't really, like, go out into the main part of the house where the kids and John were. I stayed until I could trust that it was real because we had had so many false alarms. I remember I walked into the study, I Guess, Jeff, you're the only one that even knows what I'm talking about. I walked over into that room with my phone, and that was when you called me, and you said, the nightmare is over. And you sounded weird. You were definitely shaking and in shock, and. But, gosh, I was just so grateful that you were not with the gang anymore. And our phone call was quick. I could tell that you were struggling and that, you know, and you still had tons of people around you trying to do stuff to you. And so our phone call was quick. But then I was able to go out and tell the children and tell John and everybody, and that was fun. That was the first fun part. I remember walking around the house with my hands, like, straight in the air.

[B]

So good.

[C]

Gosh, you can cut your heart out. And today is your freedom day.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Today is the anniversary of the day you got out.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

We got a text from Stephanie this morning. Happy Freedom Day.

[B]

Yeah, she's the best.

[C]

And, gosh, we're gonna have to have a whole nother podcast about you being home and me getting you at the airport and all of that, because that's the good stuff.

[B]

That is the good stuff. Do you remember that conversation on the phone late that night in the hood when I was in the hotel?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you remember how you felt like figuring out if I was crazy?

[C]

Yeah. I remember by the end of the phone call being, like, so much more relieved because you were really starting to act like yourself.

[B]

Maybe tell them a little bit about your expectations or concerns going into that.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I had been being prepped. The fact that it lasted 43 days, that you would have some severe trauma. And not only that, but the first several 72 hours would be severe shock. And we had no idea what kind of physical condition you would be in. We had no idea how bad the torture was, and we had no idea how much nutrition you'd been receiving. So we had. We really did not know what to expect in those regard. And I was pleasantly surprised as we were speaking that evening. And then there was things that. That were scary. I remember you saying how. How terrifying it was for you to look in the mirror. I remember that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I remember you not really being ready to talk to any of the kids, which was completely understandable, but also telling. It helped me realize, okay, we need to go slow. And I had also been prepped by Austin and others that coming home from a situation like this is really, really hard on a marriage and that we needed to give each other a lot of grace and a Lot of space and that I. And so I had been thinking about that for weeks. Just like, I just need to be so patient, and I have no clue what you'd gone through. And. And so I was really just taking cues from you on that phone call and just. Just so grateful that I could talk to you and not have people listening like we had.

[B]

Remember, I had always imagined our reunion being all of the children and you at the same time. But when you said on the call, I think it's just going to be me, and we're going to go away. We're going to go into a hotel for, you know, three days, five days, whatever. Whatever. You need to kind of cool off. I remember thinking, yes, that one. Like, that is so much a better idea, because I am not. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I was thrilled that you had received that training and counsel.

[C]

Yeah. And selfishly, I didn't want to share you. I was like, yeah, no, I need a minute with my husband. And so that was glorious.

[B]

Okay, let's leave it there. We'll do the next episode. We'll do our reunion.

[C]

Okay. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like that'll be way more fun.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

This is gonna be long. All right. I love you. Thank you, listeners. You guys are awesome. Thanks for sticking with us. We're almost reunited.

[C]

Yeah. But, you know, they're good now. You're out.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I'm out. All right, thanks, everybody. We will talk to you again soon. Thanks for listening.

[C]

That'd be better.

[B]

I'll see you in a sec.

[A]

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