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Strategy Hour | Online Marketing for Business Growth
948: The RealReal Truth About Power, Wealth & $1B Exits with Julie Wainwright
00:51:26
Whether you’re a solopreneur, a startup founder, or growing a team of your own, this conversation is full of real-world advice from someone who’s lived it and started all over again.
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- [00:00]
Julie Wainwright
And if you bring that mentality of I lost last game into the new game, you're going to fail. All right. As opposed to okay, I lost it. I learned something, I'm going to move on. So I really did. I had it like self talk myself out of it.
- [00:18]
Abigail Pumphrey
Welcome to the Strategy Hour podcast brought to you by Boss Project. I'm your host, Abigail Pumphrey and I'm dedicated to supporting online businesses. I don't believe in one right way to build a business. I'm here to help you build business your way. One that supports not only the life you have, but the life you want. I'm on a personal mission to help you become financially free. I'm taking all the lessons learned as I turned a layoff into a seven figure online business. I'm here to help you prioritize your life every step of the way. Whether you're creating your first digital product, growing an email list, or scaling an already profitable business. Settle in. It's time to talk strategy. Today's guest is a name that needs no introduction in the world of entrepreneurship and innovation, Julie Wainwright. She is a founder and former CEO of the Real Real, which she scaled to over $1 billion in revenue before taking it public. And now she's back at it again as the co founder and CEO of Ahara, a precision nutrition company redefining wellness through science. Julie has been named one of Forbes 50 over 50, featured on the COVID alongside Kamala Harris and Shonda Rhimes, and recognized by Fast Company Entrepreneur and Inc. For her bold strategic leadership. But this episode isn't just about accolades. It's about the hard earned lessons no one teaches about running a business. We talk about navigating power dynamics, building personal wealth, and knowing when and how to make a strategic exit. Julie shares her biggest failures and leading companies as a woman in tech. Whether you're a solopreneur, a startup founder, or growing a team of your own, this conversation is full of grounded real world advice from someone who's lived it, scaled it, and started all over again. Let's get into it. Hey Julie, welcome to the show.
- [02:17]
Julie Wainwright
Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.
- [02:20]
Abigail Pumphrey
Well, I'm excited to dig in because you've had a legendary trajectory from leading the realreal to building a hara. And I want to know, for someone who's potentially not familiar with your story, what's a moment that really shaped how you see entrepreneurship today?
- [02:38]
Julie Wainwright
Oh, gosh. First of all, and I think you find this out with a lot of women. In particular, my dad was an entrepreneur and he had his own art and design company. So different than obviously what I did, but he loved it. He had started with an ad agency, and then he left when he was 28 years old and he started his own business. Even though he had four kids by that. That was sort of. There were four kids. And every single day. Well, not every day, but most days he would come home excited about what he was working on. And that kind of enthusiasm and it was creative. I mean, they had an art and design studio. But that kind of excitement, I didn't see that in any of my friends, parents. I didn't see someone that like, isn't this great? Look what we're working on. Or what do you think of this? And so to have that energy that's creative and positive about something that you do every single day is pretty fun. I mean, so that was always there. And I would say what held me back was just fear from starting my own company.
- [03:45]
Abigail Pumphrey
Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think fear holds everyone back. Whether that's. Maybe you were comfortable starting the company, but you're afraid to make this next big move. It can be a lot. There's a lot of decision fatigue that comes with running a company, as you all know, and you're juggling so many things. I am super curious, though. The RealReal is obviously revolutionizing the resale world, but why Ahara? It's all about precision nutrition. Like, this is a major pivot. I'm cur curious why you went from one to the other after you exited.
- [04:24]
Julie Wainwright
I mean, this comes down to personal, just like a personal drive. I think, first of all, the goal of Ahara was to develop an algorithm that was personalized to you to make sure you were getting the right nutrients. And I think personally watching two things. My father at the end of his life, who had had a pretty bad heart attack at 72, and instead of changing his lifestyle, actually decided to go the other way. And he would always say, well, I don't know what to eat. I don't know what's going on. And then my mother had Ms. And so with her ms, it was years ago. They didn't know what they don't know. But getting the right nutrition, everything I had read up until then, exercise is really important, community is important, but it really does start with food. And then I worked with a doctor to see if we could do this in an algorithm and make it personal and see if it made a difference in people's. So it really became more of a passion project for me. And I Just think it's so important to take care of yourself. And it's harder now. It's much harder. I mean, we know a lot more about the environmental causes of things. The foods that are packaged, we know they were really set up to be addictive. So we know. And that doesn't mean I don't eat Oreos because, you know, occasionally you got to do that. But I just think helping people make the right food choices that are, that are unique to your own body is a cool concept. And we're sort of there now with some science. So that was it. Pure passion. It's a passion project.
- [05:59]
Abigail Pumphrey
I think so many businesses come out of pure passion. And I also think that this illustrates that you can be passionate about a lot of things and it can be really easy to say, well, this is nowhere close to what I've just been doing. Does it even make sense to essentially start from scratch? Because like, you learn one world, you're in one industry for a long time. In a lot of ways you started completely over.
- [06:27]
Julie Wainwright
Oh, I did. But you know, on the other hand, the common thread is technology.
- [06:32]
Abigail Pumphrey
Totally.
- [06:33]
Julie Wainwright
And it's trying to figure out how we can use technology and it's also consumer facing. So, you know, I've always been working, I think I'm not a business to business person. I'm really trying to think about a consumer, an end user and how they're going to use things and then how technology can leverage that. Now I have to say one of the things, I mean, I've always loved fashion, so that never stopped. It's not like when I left the realreal. Oh yeah, that didn't stop at all. But I didn't go in, I didn't start. Listen, you're going to have to shut me down because I can talk forever. But I didn't start the realreal because I love fashion, which I do love fashion. I started the realreal because I saw an opportunity that was a big opportunity and doing it in a way that had never been done before, leveraging technology. So it really was that, it was that premise. Now I happen to love fashion and loved it. And my mother, my mother and father both they met at art school. Their school was bought by the Art Institute of Chicago while they were in their school. But she wanted to be a fashion illustrator. So, you know, it sort of was at the base. And so when I was growing up, we had all these like 1950s drawings that she had done in fashion everywhere, which is a cool, it's a cool thing. So that was like an early thing too, which meant I've always spent way too much money on clothes.
- [07:59]
Abigail Pumphrey
I think there's ways to, like, figure out how to meld the thing where we're super interested in and really look for opportunities. Because as much as people pursue the thing they love, I think a lot of times they look in this space and they're like, okay, a lot of people are doing X, Y, Z. How could I do something similar and then just try to make it unique? And I think what's a little bit different about your approach is you're like, I'm super passionate about this area, but what's never been done before and how can we really approach this in a novel and new way? And it's easy to think there's no more novel ideas out there because the world's existed for so long and technology has gone so fast. But I disagree. I think there's new opportunities that pop up all the time and you just have to be willing to listen and look and pay attention.
- [08:55]
Julie Wainwright
I agree with you completely. And when I was so the reason I started the realreal, you know, in the tech world, you age out. And then I'd had a big failure in my past that people, I always says pets.com, which was the company I was brought in to run and had to shut down. And it had incredibly negative press. It was looming large on me, you know, whether I wanted to escape it or not. It was like always behind me. And when I finally figured out, and it was really under duress because I'm like, I'm too young. And also I'd had a divorce, so I didn't have, you have like money and then you have half of your money after a divorce. And so I had to figure out what I was going to do given my age, which was 52. And what I did, though, the first thing I did was I knew I loved commerce and I knew I wanted to get back into E commerce. And then the second thing I did was analyze the competition on the E commerce platform, which really was what can Amazon do and not do? And I had this framework. It was almost a four quadrant, like McKinsey looking, but I had a framework for my thinking. But then I had no ideas, but I had a framework. So I had actually done the work and I talked to other people and then I had no ideas. Except when I was shopping with a friend in the boutique and she had never shopped in a consignment store in this full price boutique. It was a shoe shop, but it had really beautiful designer shoes and had a little area in the back called the vault, and that's where she spent her money. And I'd never seen her shop in a consignment store. And we were shopping buddies, so we. I knew her patterns and I never seen her consign. And then she explained why she did it there and how she trusted the owner. And these were amazing items at a great price, and who really cares if they're previously owned because. And it was a beautiful store. So it was a beautiful store. She trusted the owner. They'd be safe. She would never do it online because she didn't believe things were gonna be authentic. She had never consigned because it was too hard. And she bought all luxury goods. So I already had that model, and I just knew right away. I'm like, that's it. Cause, you know, when you put up, like, I always knew Amazon couldn't do luxury. They still can't do luxury. But, you know, I'm like, well, I'm not gonna start a luxury company. That's not my skill set. But once I saw this, everything clicked. So I think knowing I wanted to get back into commerce because I love it. I love E commerce, I love, you know, it's just exciting. And also knowing what had done the work with some other advisors, by the way, what are. Where are they going? What can they do? What can't they do? When I saw it and then I explored how big the opportunity was, I knew it without a doubt this was going to be huge, and I needed to run fast and get it done. So that's sort of how that all came about. It came about out of me finally figuring out no one was going to hire me and give me a good job. I was going to run out of money at some point. And I love working and I wanted to do something. It was sort of time. And here's the weird thing. Honestly, you got to stop me because I could talk. But here's the weird thing. I really did have this huge failure@pets.com behind me. And it was horrific when I went through it because the press was on me, people. It was just. It was all bad. I mean, I'd be out at dinner with someone and someone come up to me, didn't even know them, ask me who I was, and then say something really terrible. So. So it was like this whole public shaming weird thing to the point where I'm like, I'm not even going out anymore. So that was really dark. When I started the real, real for Some reason. And I'd gone through this, by the way. That was ten years later, so. But looking back, having that perspective, I realized it was so painful, but it didn't kill me and it freed me that I had no fear of failure after that. None.
- [13:00]
Abigail Pumphrey
Well, I think your lack of fear has led you down a really incredible path. And I want to talk a little bit about owning the room and positioning yourself, especially when there are so few women in tech and so few women like navigating all the things that you have. And so I'd love to know what you've learned about power dynamics, especially in industries where you've been underestimated or women have been underestimated.
- [13:32]
Julie Wainwright
It's a great question. I would say early on I knew that you needed to own something that someone else couldn't own. So a project or a part of the business that had real profit and loss attached to it because no one can take that away from you. So. Meaning you either got results or you didn't. And tech is so male oriented and so bro heavy. And when I joined the industry, to be honest, it wasn't like that. It got worse when I joined. It was so new and it was so exciting because I joined the software industry in 1983. 82. 83. 83. I think you probably weren't born then, but it was so exciting because it was all about what you did and what you owned. And not until the company got big that they brought in professional leadership and they brought in a guy from IBM and Big One. I mean it was like 500 million. Then it became political. All right, so. And then it became really almost unbearable. It was sort of like he wanted more power than what he. He wanted to run the whole company. And then it became weird and it wasn't about what you did. And so at that point I made it and it was obvious. And the current, the CEO that had started the company was sort of checked out. And honestly, he didn't have a political bone in his body. He really is a creator. So he wasn't aware that all this other weird stuff was going on behind him. And so at that point I made a decision that it's sort of like what you see now. Like if you weren't loyal to him, he would basically figure out a way to fire you. All right? And everyone just went along with it, which was really creepy. So I figured, all right, I'm just going to play the game so I can leave on my terms because I don't want to be fired because of this Whatever. So I just kept my head down, acted like I liked the guy, tried not to ruffle feathers, and then left. But I had run international for them, I'd run a product line. So the next company I went to, I had real results I could talk, talk about. And so I've always been trying to avoid those highly political situations because they're hard to maneuver. And you almost, you have to have another sense, you know, if you think about you only have so much energy every single day. Right. And if you're putting energy into playing politics, which is really critical in larger companies, you're not putting energy into doing your job. And it's the same thing, by the way. It's the same thing with being a woman in business. If you put energy into not being a woman, sort of to be like, I'm just going to be one of the guys. And it's not natural for you. It's all that energy where you could have done something more positive and productive because at some point you break. You can't keep up the facade. I think just being aware of the dynamics and what's healthy for you. So you can. As a merit based. The tech world was merit based. And soon as it became bigger, it became, and there are a lot of women, by the way, a lot of women in these companies. So I worked with a lot of amazing women. And then it became more male dominated, people from large corporations coming in and they became much more political.
- [16:59]
Abigail Pumphrey
Well, I think it's a little bit reassuring to hear that someone in your position had a period in their career where they just like put a smile on and played the game. And I think so often we're taught to be the resistance and like go against the grain and do our own thing. And sometimes that's not the safe choice. Like, sometimes that's not what's gonna keep us going or moving forward or getting where we want to go. And not that you want to like break your own ethical boundaries, but sometimes you just gotta fly under the radar for a minute.
- [17:33]
Julie Wainwright
Yes. You know, I mean, look, if you. And I was, I mean, I was. Even after I got married, I was the main earner in the family. You know, I didn't want to shoot myself in the foot when I needed a paycheck. So. And it's, I have to tell you, now I'm like, now I wouldn't do that because I'm too grumpy and old. But then I just couldn't do it because I'd be calling people on their stuff. But I'm not even saying I would be wrong but it wouldn't be self serving. But then, you know, I just had, it was pretty clear with the what was going on. So I did, I had to take a beat till I figured out something because the last thing I wanted to do is like have two weeks of severance and be like, take something that was horrible just to take a job, which I would have. And by the way I did after pets.com I took some bad gigs just to take a job because I was also divorcing. I'm like, I need money coming in. So. And then at some point you realize it's killing your soul. So you're always balancing that soul sucking feeling and the financial demands and being pragmatic and being alive, you know, alive with in the moment, loving what you're doing.
- [18:45]
Abigail Pumphrey
Yeah, I think so often we forget these impressive, powerful women. It didn't just all happen overnight. And we know that like we know it doesn't happen overnight. Like you had a whole lifetime, a whole career prior to some of your biggest successes. And it's really easy to think, oh, she just came up with this idea and it was brilliant and it like did all these incredible things. It's like, no, you spent decades in an industry learning the ins and outs and the dynamics and how people worked and what was effective and what wasn't and like how to run a company. And then you figured it out.
- [19:25]
Julie Wainwright
Yeah, but you know what, that's also a woman thing. So here's. I kept thinking I needed more to learn. You know, I started in marketing, then I ran sales, then at some point I ran a division and I kept thinking, oh, I've got more to learn, more to learn. But then I went inside after Pets and a venture capital firm and all these young entrepreneurs, mostly men, in fact only men at that time, were pitching the firm. And these guys, they were clueless about anything. But they had so much self confidence and they maybe had two years of work experience. I would say quite a few of them got funded. Most venture capitalists say no, but you know, quite a few of them got funded and it was a good idea and it didn't matter. So all that experience I was building, I really think it was my own feeling of inadequate. Like I don't know, I don't know finance yet well enough. I don't know this well enough yet. Whatever, I don't know ops well enough. And I would go deep. Now it made me running the real real because it's a very complex technology and operational intensive business that was, I have to say, it's very complex business. A lot of good moats, but I knew how to do it. I also got to observe good teams and bad teams and how people work and how to what's the optimal team and then create that. But I think I was holding myself back the whole time. And when you see these guys and they do fine and they fail and they bounce back up and for me it was like, especially with pets, it was such a public failure. It's sort of. It almost. I almost let it define me. I say when I wrote the book I wrote, I let it define me until I didn't. And that's true. It was absolutely true. At some point I'm like, whoa, this is ridiculous. You know, you look around, no one else is beating themselves up five years later. So I think women just have a it's a little harder. And now it's not just women. I think it's anyone that doesn't fit the norm in the company.
- [21:31]
Abigail Pumphrey
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- [23:50]
Julie Wainwright
Oh, my gosh, you just said it. That you think you're not enough. And I think. I mean, honestly, I see it in women all the time. I had it. I had it. I kept thinking. And that's a fear, though. That is fear. Fear of putting yourself out there and failing. Those are excuses. And even though that you can rationalize them all, like, but this, I don't know. This. That's true. That's true. But the truth is, even when I started the Real World, I didn't know a lot. I just knew at that point I could figure it out. And I also knew I'd be more right than wrong. I wasn't trying to be 80% right. I was trying to be 51% right. I figured if I'm 51% right, then we're good, because that's all I wanted to be. And it took me a long time to have that mindset. But it's true. You have to be more right than wrong. I mean, 51 isn't great, but it's better than 49. So more right than wrong. And you have to really believe in yourself. You can figure it out, and you will figure it out. I think that's the whole thing. I had to learn that about myself. And yet, when I look back, you know, I was the oldest child in a home where the mother was ill. And I did really well in school, but I really had to step up and sort of help take care of the whole family. And I've been figuring stuff out my whole life. And what woman hasn't been figuring stuff? Or person? Any person that does anything. And it's not like you're giving instructions. It's not like we went up and watched YouTube on how to do this, this, and this.
- [25:23]
Abigail Pumphrey
No, we didn't. And I think perhaps it's the fear that comes up because you're thinking a hundred steps ahead or a thousand steps ahead. And really you just have to be making a decision about the next step and you can learn as you go. I know people can get upset about building the plane while you're flying it, but I haven't known a single person in business that isn't successful that didn't do that at some point.
- [25:52]
Julie Wainwright
Oh, exactly. Oh, we used to say you have to change the tires when you're in the race. You know, you can't take a pit stop. It's the same idea. You really do have to. It's an creating your own business. I mean you created this pod. It's an act of faith. It is an act of faith and ultimately it's an act of faith in yourself. And you know what, and who else, if you don't believe in yourself, who else is going to do it? This is all this self talk that I'm saying right now. That's what I went through. I literally. And then here's the other thing. I love sports. I mean I grew up in Indiana and in Indiana when I would grow up it was football, basketball, really football and basketball and baseball. But really it was football and basketball were hand and glove and then baseball was out there. But you start looking at a batting average, a great batting average is point. I mean like almost surreal. Batting average 0.37. That means 63% of the time they missed, you know. And you start looking at like especially baseball players, man, they play so, so do basketball players. So many games.
- [26:55]
Abigail Pumphrey
Oh yes, so many games.
- [26:56]
Julie Wainwright
And if you bring that mentality of I lost last game into the new game, you're going to fail. All right. As opposed to okay, I lost it, I learned something, I'm going to move on. So I really did. I had it like self talk myself out of it. I also had to look at sports, which I love sports. I mean you have to have a. I'm here now and I'm going to take give everything I've got to win and if I lose, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out next time.
- [27:24]
Abigail Pumphrey
Yeah, I think that's a great mentality and one that I think also lends itself on a more personal side because you've been a big vocal advocate about building personal wealth as a woman and I especially with having a venture backed company and generating revenue and then going public and exiting and all the things I think talking about wealth can feel a little taboo. I'm curious why you think that's still happening.
- [27:55]
Julie Wainwright
Well, first of all, let me just say Why? I think it's important you want to be able to make decisions for the right reason. You don't want to make decisions because you need someone else's wealth or you need someone else's fame or someone. Or you're afraid. If you make a decision out of fear, again, it comes back to fear, or that you want something someone else has when you're not creating it on your own, your life is going to be stunted, and probably you most likely will constantly. You won't have the same options and the same knowing and the same strength as if you create your own money. And I do think we've slipped a little. Well, I know we've slipped. When I was. The 80s were a period of people that actually worked in the 80s and women that worked in the 80s was a turning point. But we sort of, and I think women still do this, that we came out thinking, oh, Gloria Steinem raised the flag. She changed everything. We're good. And then we had to find out we're not good. And we had to work harder. So we were sort of hit with that reality. But things seem more possible. So if you think about like just birth control was now everywhere. Opportunities were opening up. If you believed. There was still tons of discrimination, but it felt possible. So then, then you look around, you're like, all right, do I want to be the best I can? And the answer was that was for me, yes. And what does that mean? It means I have to be free to make decisions, not out of fear. And it's so important to make your own money and put it aside and know you can do it and know you can do it. And then if you want to take a break and not make your own money, but then you know you can go back and do it anytime. And it's all about freedom of choice.
- [29:47]
Abigail Pumphrey
You're preaching to the choir. I could not agree more. How incredibly empowering financial stability and security is and being able to make decisions from that place. It's completely different than when you are still living paycheck to paycheck, even when you're running your own business. That could be from client invoice to client invoice. If you're living in that constantly needing something from other people place versus knowing you're good. And even if you say no to this opportunity that you're still going to be good. It's so empowering and it really allows you to speak and make decisions that are more closely aligned with your boundaries and values. Because I think sometimes when you're not In a financially stable environment, you have to push those boundaries. You have to test, oh, I don't feel great about this, but I really need the money, so I'm going to make that decision anyway. I know you've been there.
- [30:52]
Julie Wainwright
Well, I just said, look, I played the game with that and it was so unpalatable. I knew the company was going to like implode and it did, but I just didn't want to get fired because I wasn't loyal for a while. And it took about nine months, but it never felt great. And here's the sad thing for that, it was pretty obvious then. It wasn't about what you did, it was about how you appeared, what you appeared to do, how you made that person feel. And so you could see it's seductive to say, okay, well I don't have to do anything. And then it's sort of like, what? But then is that the person I want to be where I just like, follow that person around and just like, help them, give them some ideas, tell them they're great, ask if I can help out, when in fact you do nothing. And I didn't want to be that person, but I had to be that person for a while.
- [31:47]
Abigail Pumphrey
Yeah, I think we all end up in that position at some point in our careers and it's not a fun place and you want to get out of there as fast as possible. But I do think one of the reasons that happens even in your own company is that so many entrepreneurs get caught up in revenue goals without necessarily thinking about a long term plan for their own wealth.
- [32:10]
Julie Wainwright
Oh, that's probably true. You're probably right. Yes.
- [32:14]
Abigail Pumphrey
And I'm curious, what early moves do you feel like someone who's starting or founding a business or maybe they're a decade into this. What are the things they need to be thinking about to protect their own future?
- [32:27]
Julie Wainwright
Oh, wow. Well, gosh, look, there are no guarantees, right? So, I mean, I took outside investors and for the most part, they were great. There was one really sort of one bad apple who's still there on the board. He's a pretty bad apple and clearly he was only thinking about his own wealth, not the creation of the company. But it is the hardest thing to do. Like, I'll say, I'll give you an example. A friend of mine's got a company she conceived of. It's at $100 million now, which is hard work. It took her 10 years to get it there. Working really hard. She had to take outside investors. She had a dilute quite a bit. And so she's like, you know, if I'm lucky, I'll walk. After 10 years of hard, hard work, and it really is on her shoulders. I'm lucky if I walk away with a couple million dollars. And she's not young, so that's not nothing. Let's just be clear. It's not nothing, but her investors are going to walk away with at least one times revenue. All right? So let's just say it's 100 million. They're going to walk away with 98. And if she's lucky, she'll walk away with two. So what did she do? I think this is fascinating too. A lot of lawyers are reluctant. There was a whole thing going on in the valley with the way the different classes of stock. So someone like Mark Zuckerberg has his own class of stock where he can never really be fired. He's still going to control everything. And that was happening at the law firm I was using. My lawyers never recommended that to me at the real rail. And yet. And I thought, huh, I wonder, that's fascinating. Did I have to ask for it? So I think you just have to figure out a way to be more selfish. It doesn't come naturally for women to be that selfish about especially like I've noticed this the older I get too, you know, I had to raise. Oh, I didn't have to, but I was in a situation where I felt like I had to raise my brothers and sisters. So I was sort of used to taking care of them before taking care of myself. And you gotta balance that all out. So with the realreal once we went public, I knew I did set up a selling program for myself and it worked out really well. But I have to say, the investors, the public markets investors were angry at me. And I'm like, okay, but I've just built this thing for 11 years. I also need to have it. And my salary was fine, but it wasn't luxurious. I think first and for the first two years it was sort of zero. It was like maybe, maybe like I don't even remember. I should look at my tax returns. But it was probably like 10k or something, max, maybe not even that. It's hard. I think women, you have to be a little selfish. But if you're too selfish, the business will crash. You got to find the balance. It's a balance. Yeah, it's totally a balance and it's a judgment call.
- [35:30]
Abigail Pumphrey
So you put in a lot of years. 11 years is a long time. But I'm curious after you've been in so many different positions. When do you think people should think about it? Like, when do you think people should think about an exit or think about a pivot? Is there something happening in the business or.
- [35:48]
Julie Wainwright
Yeah, pivots are. You have to build pivot. That's a mentality. Pivots are a mentality. And I would say you have to be able to like say, okay, this isn't working pretty fast and read it fairly quickly. And it's probably within three months of launching your idea. And let's just say you've laid it out. You need a fast way to pivot and you need to be decisive. And it shouldn't be hard. It should be sort of like, I'm doing something. Especially if you're doing something people haven't done before. If it's not working, maybe you need a tweak or maybe you need a hard right, or maybe you see something glowing over there, but you're over here. But because you did something, you got something to market, you had that opportunity to see something else that looks more that way. Now you can pivot, pivot, pivot yourself to death. And then you're like, then you've got nothing. But I think you have to have the mentality of iteration whenever you start something in terms of, of liquidity. I mean, I took venture capital money and when they put money in, they got to get it out. And there's only two ways of getting out the money. It's either you sell the company or you go public. Or I guess, yeah, that's it really two ways, I was going to say. Or you could start paying dividends off, but then you're just sort of killing yourself. Then you're sort of value extracting with no opportunity. So then it comes down to what's for us going public. I knew we had to have at least a billion dollars of top line revenue because the market would discount it by 30% because it's anyway, it's all about the cost of consignment. We also had to have a predictable business and all of that looked good until Covid hit. Then nothing was predictable. But there's also windows of opportunity because some people wait too long. So if I would have waited to take the company and Covid would have hit, it wouldn't have gone public probably, and not until this year. So that's five years later. And there would have been tremendous pressure from the investors because they had investor pressure to get their money out. The only thing that was good about COVID is everyone went through it. Not it wasn't something that you created, but it was a nightmare. And look what's going on. I mean today, I don't know, I haven't looked today. But the markets here, there are companies on deck to go public. They can't go public public because the markets are too volatile. So then at some point they're going to be in trouble because they have investors. So but that was the route I took. I took the, you know, the venture capital route where I raised a lot of money and they had to get their money out at some point. And the other thing is though, every employee in the company had stock. So it wasn't just them getting their money out. Everyone had some more wealth than they had before if they worked in the company for at least a year. We had a year, Cliff.
- [38:41]
Abigail Pumphrey
Amazing. I think you bring up a solid point though about the like judgment call of not waiting too long. Because I honestly think a lot more people end up in that situation than not. Especially when they're not necessarily trying to build a billion dollar company. Like if they're trying to get to 3 million or 5 or 10 million and then have a smaller exit, I think many of those people miss the window and then end up like riding it out for the rest of their career even though they didn't really like the business anymore and they were ready to move on and then they closed it and then they just close it. And it's just so sad. And it's not to say that every single person needs to sell their business for it to be worth it. No, you can make really good money running a company if you do so ethically and with the right things in mind. But I am sad to see that so many people do miss that window. And it makes you, it makes you think, how can I be a little more decisive? How can I be a little more willing to take risks? Because that's what it comes down to.
- [39:47]
Julie Wainwright
It comes down to risk. And also you know what you're doing today, you've been in that whatever it came an idea, you've had some success, you understand that story. So the thought of selling it is sort of like. But then what? And where do I go there? It's a fascinating thing. And my brothers took over his with two other guys, his father in law's business and they just sold it. And what happened then he had a hard time extracting his own. Well, not only is his self from it, but also, you know, they did things differently. So you now you have this child that someone's doing something differently. And you. Some of the things he agreed with, some of them he violently disagreed. And he had like a period of time he had to work with him. And it was just torturous seeing him go through it because now he's really happy he sold it. But you know that transition time is hard too. It's good. You have to give stuff up. Giving stuff up is hard. Saying, I'm going to do something different and I'm going to say goodbye to something and closing the door. Your life, especially one that. I mean, closing doors when things are bad is easy, I think. But when things are good or not bad, you know what I mean? Sort of in that good, really good or not, the worst thing is the not bad. Well, it's not bad. Then you close that. Then you have all those emotions. So detangling yourself from that. But look, at the end of the day, I just didn't. I had other things I wanted to do with money and one of them was not just for my own self, but, you know, putting scout. I put a scholarship in place at Parsons and one at Purdue for Parsons for sustainable fashion, Purdue for women in business or engineering. And I'm really big into animal rights. So I had other things I wanted to do with the money. So it wasn't. And this is probably also this thing. I was still taking care of people, right? So it wasn't just, well, like, I need this money. It's like, no, I also have stuff I want to do that's bigger than me. And I think you just have to force yourself. It's also good to have outside, not board members, but outside people that will just be honest with you about where you are and to have talks and walks with them and where you. You don't have to. You can be vulnerable, that you know there isn't going to be something that'll come back to haunt you. But hopefully good advice. And I had. Sadly, she passed away. But I had a good friend that we had worked together. She was the head of HR in a couple companies and we would go through walks and she would just bounce ideas off her, talk to her about things. And it was great because, you know, she wasn't. She was more supportive than not. But she also wasn't going to do anything with the information except give me sound advice. And having that is really important.
- [42:34]
Abigail Pumphrey
I think having some of those people in your life is important and not just one. Like, I think you need more than one voice in your head and not that you shouldn't have a coach Or a therapist. You probably also need those people in your life. But this person needs to be different. Like, they need to, like, understand what it's like to walk in your shoes. They need to not have opinions that are motivated by, like, the decisions you make personally affect their finances. Like, they need to be neutral. And it's hard to find those people, especially the further along you get in business and the higher up you go, like, there's just less people to talk to.
- [43:14]
Julie Wainwright
Well, it is. You know, that's what they say. It's lonely. It gets a little lonely. One of the cool things, though, Forbes did is they brought together like 50 women over 50 who were doing cool things. And I was in the inaugural class and I met about three. I wish I would have met them when I, you know, when I was starting the business. But I met about three or four different female founders. That one in particular, that we became really good friends. And we were in our own little silo world going through our own little issues. And even though totally different businesses, emotionally, we were sort of going through the same thing. And it wouldn't have been so great to know this person then. She's still in it in a hardcore way. And so I can provide that support because honestly, when you start your own business, it is. You have to really be dedicated. It takes a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of focus, and not an end. If you're doing well, then you are leaving people behind. So you've got. That's a weirdness thing that happens because they're like, here you're over here, you're going through different experiences. And so to have someone that you can share information with and feel like it's honest is such a treat. I'm not a fan of coaches, but that could be because I've seen them do damage with my executives. I am a fan of therapists, but, yes, if you can find people going through it. There's also a book Julia Boorstin wrote called oh my gosh, I should Google it. But it's all about. I think it's When Women Lead is the title of it. And there's so many wonderful entrepreneur stories and also even women in corporations that then spun off and did something within the corporation. And I thought, where were those people? I would have loved to known those people. Because you just all of a sudden you don't feel lonely. You feel like, oh, those are my people. I may never meet them, but we're out there.
- [45:13]
Abigail Pumphrey
Yeah, well, I mean, you're a powerhouse. Like, truly, you've done so many incredible things. I am so impressed by your career. I want to be you and I grow up. It's just. It's been really incredible to have this conversation today. And I know you're coming out with a book this summer. I'd love to give you an opportunity to share a little bit more about it before we wrap up today because it does talk about the story a little bit more.
- [45:38]
Julie Wainwright
It does. It's called Time to Get Real. You can order it on Amazon. It'll ship June 9th. And I wrote the story of how I created the RealReal by year. So I wrote it. I wrote it because it was. Well, first of all, I had an agent that wanted me to write it, but she wanted me to work with a. Originally a ghostwriter. And I figured no one can tell the story. So I did start that way. And then I wrote the book and I wanted to take people on the journey of what it's like to create a company and be honest about it. And so it's like year by year by year, pulling out key events that happened all the way to when I left the company. And it takes you on a ride. There's lessons interwoven, but it's not like, here are the five things I learned. It's more like, I'm almost taking you. Like, when I learned it, you're learning it. That was my goal, is to say, oh, here's this, this, and this. It turned out to be. I was surprised. I enjoyed writing it. I mean, it was a good. And at some point I'm like, I can write it. It doesn't have to get published. Because it was so much fun writing it.
- [46:43]
Abigail Pumphrey
I'm sure it was cathartic, too. It was go back through it and relive it, but also get perspective on it. Because I'm sure some of the things that happen, they weren't always fun in the moment, but you realize later they needed to happen. Or like, they were a huge pivotal point for you. And those moments are baked in. Well, if you guys want a copy, I've hooked it up for you. You can go to bossproject.com RealReal we have the Amazon direct link for you. So thank you so much for coming on today. Any last parting words before we head out?
- [47:18]
Julie Wainwright
I would say, look, life is short. You only have one life. There's no downside to going for it and just living it as much you can. There's no downside. It's only good things. Failure can't hurt you. What can hurt you is when you're older and you're better and you're like, why didn't I do that?
- [47:37]
Abigail Pumphrey
Thank you so much. I know this episode is going to mean a lot to a lot of people, so thank you for being here. And until next time, make sure you're subscribed to the Strategy Hour so you can tune in to more powerful guests like Julie. Hey, a few quick favors before you leave. I'd love if you'd share today's episode, send it to a friend who needs to hear it and post on social. You can show us where you're listening from, your favorite takeaway, or why someone else should listen. Be sure to tag me, Abigail says, and bossproject so we can share it. Okay. Second favor to get podcast updates and all the behind the scenes news from bossproject. I'd love if you'd join my VIP list. Just head to bossproject.com signup to make sure I have all your contact details. Really love this show. It would mean so much to me if you'd leave a rating and review. It not only helps more listeners find the show, but allows us to bring on quality sponsors so we can keep bringing you this valuable content for free. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time.