960: What No One Told My Husband About Marrying an Ambitious Woman

Summary

Episode Summary: "What No One Told My Husband About Marrying an Ambitious Woman"

Podcast: Strategy Hour | Online Marketing for Business Growth
Host: Abagail Pumphrey, CEO of Boss Project
Episode: 960
Release Date: June 12, 2025

In this heartfelt and insightful episode, Abagail Pumphrey invites her husband, Jared, to join her in a candid conversation about the dynamics of their marriage, particularly focusing on the challenges and triumphs of being married to an ambitious woman. The discussion delves deep into redefining traditional roles, confronting societal norms, and sharing valuable lessons they've learned along the way.

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1. Introduction to Their Dynamic

Abagail sets the stage by explaining the unique nature of this episode, highlighting its vulnerable and intimate tone. She emphasizes her mission to help others build their businesses while balancing personal lives, drawing from her own experience of transforming a layoff into a seven-figure online enterprise.

Notable Quote:

Abagail Pumphrey [02:32]: "I really want to sit down and talk about what it looks like to be married to a strong, ambitious woman."

2. Early Expectations in Marriage

The conversation begins by reflecting on their early days of marriage. Jared shares his initial traditional expectations, shaped by his Midwestern upbringing, where he saw himself as the primary provider. Abagail, on the other hand, had different aspirations that challenged these norms.

Notable Quotes:

Jared [06:02]: "I brought that perspective into our marriage that, like, whatever I do for my career is going to be primary."

Abagail Pumphrey [08:14]: "When we were engaged, Jared accepted a job in Baltimore without discussing it with me, which was wild."

3. Shifting Roles and Career Decisions

Abagail recounts the pivotal moment when she proposed a bet to Jared: if she could secure a better job in Kansas City, he would quit his job and move back. This bet marked the beginning of a significant shift in their professional and personal lives.

Notable Quotes:

Abagail Pumphrey [09:00]: "If I can get a job in Kansas City and make more money than you, then you need to quit and move back."

Jared [10:53]: "I think we came home on that, like Saturday and I drafted my resignation letter to take on Monday... but I just took it as a PTO day."

4. Navigating Societal and Familial Pressures

Jared discusses the external pressures they faced from society, family, and friends regarding their non-traditional roles. He highlights how these pressures often stemmed from misconceptions about their arrangement.

Notable Quotes:

Jared [14:44]: "Some people react in the way that's like, maybe a little condescending."

Abagail Pumphrey [30:27]: "What assumptions or like misconceptions have you run into about that dynamic?"

5. Emotional and Psychological Challenges

The episode delves into the emotional toll that reversing traditional roles can take. Jared speaks candidly about struggling with his sense of identity and masculinity, learning to detach his self-worth from financial contributions.

Notable Quotes:

Jared [39:35]: "This has challenged my masculinity or my sense of worth in, like, the dollars that I'm able to create."

Abagail Pumphrey [40:18]: "Your worth is not equated to how much financially you bring to the relationship."

6. Balancing Work and Marriage

Abagail and Jared explore how they maintain a healthy balance between their professional collaboration and personal relationship. They discuss setting boundaries, effective communication, and the importance of mutual respect.

Notable Quotes:

Abagail Pumphrey [32:02]: "In business, there's this mutual respect... we are married well."

Jared [33:19]: "It's a delicate balancing act between marriage, Jared and Abby and work, Jared and Abby."

7. Embracing Vulnerability and Openness

The couple highlights how their unique dynamic has fostered greater openness and vulnerability in their relationship. Jared mentions the profound impact of personal challenges, such as Jared's emergency surgery, in strengthening their emotional connection.

Notable Quotes:

Jared [45:23]: "Having your appendix out and having your whole limbic system reset with anesthesia, that also created a lot of vulnerability and openness."

Abagail Pumphrey [45:56]: "For those who weren't here to witness the chaos that Jared having emergency surgery ensued upon our family, it definitely allowed for some reassessment, addressing."

8. Lessons Learned and Advice for Other Couples

Towards the end of the episode, Jared shares practical advice for couples considering working together. He emphasizes the importance of communication, flexibility, and surrounding oneself with supportive individuals.

Notable Quotes:

Jared [51:16]: "Operational things... is this something that I want to do? Is this the exposure that I want?"

Abagail Pumphrey [53:29]: "What do you hope other men hear or understand from your perspective?"

9. Final Thoughts and Encouragement

The episode concludes with Jared encouraging men to trust their wives and recognizing the strength that comes from mutual support and understanding.

Notable Quotes:

Jared [54:00]: "Trust your wife!!!!"

Abagail Pumphrey [56:09]: "I love you a lot and I am so grateful that we get to work together..."

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Key Takeaways

• Redefining Traditional Roles: Abagail and Jared's journey underscores the importance of challenging societal norms to create a partnership that aligns with both individuals' ambitions and strengths.

• Communication is Crucial: Open and honest communication has been the cornerstone of their successful marriage and business collaboration.

• Flexibility and Support: Flexibility in roles and mutual support can lead to a more fulfilling personal and professional life.

• Embracing Vulnerability: Allowing oneself to be vulnerable fosters deeper emotional connections and resilience in the face of challenges.

• Advice for Couples: For those considering a similar dynamic, it's essential to establish clear boundaries, communicate effectively, and ensure both partners are genuinely supportive of each other's roles.

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Conclusion

Episode 960 of Strategy Hour offers a profound exploration of modern marriage dynamics, especially when traditional roles are reversed. Through their authentic conversation, Abagail and Jared provide valuable insights into building a supportive partnership that thrives both personally and professionally. This episode is a must-listen for couples navigating similar paths or anyone interested in understanding the interplay between ambition, marriage, and business.

Transcript

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Welcome to the Strategy Hour podcast brought to you by Boss Project. I'm your host Abigail Pumphrey and I'm dedicated to supporting online businesses. I don't believe in one right way to build a business. I'm here to help you build business your way, one that supports not only the life you have, but the life you want. I'm on a personal mission to help you become financially free. I'm taking all the lessons learned as I turned a layoff into a seven figure online business. I'm here to help you prioritize your life every step of the way, whether you're creating your first digital product, growing an email list, or scaling an already profitable business. Settle in. It's time to talk strategy.

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[Abigail Pumphrey]

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[Jared]

I would say that as long as you have the energy to work with your spouse and like the grace and the flexibility to like figure it out. Like let the rest go of the opinions because those are people that, looking at your situation, are probably pretty jealous of what you have.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Today's episode is just a little bit different. I hope that it's a vulnerable, intimate conversation that I just happen to be letting you in on. I am having my husband on the show today to. To talk about something. I see more people than you might realize navigating. And I really want to sit down and talk about what it looks like to be married to a strong, ambitious woman. But more than that, I hope we can have an honest conversation about confronting cultural norms, redefining roles, and getting honest about the stuff we wish someone else told told us sooner. So with that, I'd like to welcome Jared back to the Strategy Hour podcast. Thanks for being here.

[Jared]

Hey, it's nice to see you in your element.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Okay. It is nice. Thanks. I'm excited you're here. And it's funny. I don't know how many of you have listened to this episode, but we did a co episode that happened to release on, I want to say Christmas Day to two years ago maybe, and we talked about Jared having a lack of an internal monologue, which is a story for another day. You really should go back and listen to it.

[Jared]

But the great experiment was, is it was actually our top ranked podcast episode of in 2024, because it released Christmas Day of 2023. We started to dig in, like, why is this? Why one episode with my husband, like performing so well? And it was actually that Google picked it up through their AI SEO channel. And so I think it's just a testament as to like, as we do this work, as we build a business online, as we create content, like the power of AI can take something that doesn't, you know, like it's this personal conversation between the two of us. Okay. Yeah. The die hard strategy. Our listeners are gonna like, listen to it and enjoy it. But like, does it really go further? And to see that this one episode had that much reach because Google picked it up was pretty cool.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

It was pretty cool. It happens to be not only one of our most downloaded episodes, but it's one of our top performing pages on our website. It gets thousands of visitors a year. It's wild. So thank you for being here and tuning in and I realize that some of this is going to be very specific to our marriage and our unique situation, but I'm hoping for those of you listening that you can take something away to potentially have an important conversation in your own relationship and or just get a new perspective. So thanks for being here. So I want to kick things off and I want to talk about the early days of our marriage. So I'm going to kick off our first question with when you first married me, who I happen to be fabulous. Just saying. Did you have any specific expectations of our roles in marriage and career and how quickly did you realize things might look a little bit different for us?

[Jared]

So if you're listening, you're not seeing my facial expression. It's this giant cheeseball grin right now. Because I think that where we are today, 12 years later of being married and then what, five years of dating? Yeah. One year engaged. Like, I think I, coming from, with Midwest values, came to. I had a lot of preconceived notions of, like, what it meant to be in a marriage, what it meant to be a spouse. Like, you know, I grew up in a household where at one time both of my parents worked. My mom went through a layoff. She at that point decided, you know, I should stay home with the kids. So she stayed home with my brother and I and the opportunity was she could be involved in school. But then it put the weight on my dad to, like, be the provider. And, like, that's how it was, you know, from when I was 4 years old maybe onward, he was the primary provider. And when it came to a dollar saying, and my mom worked as a housekeeper running her own housekeeping business. So I brought that perspective into our marriage that, like, whatever I do for my career is going to be primary. And whatever Abby does is just to fill in the gaps. What Abby does, you know, lets us go on a vacation. What Abby does builds a nest egg. Like, I'm going to cover all the needs and the necessities. But, you know, beyond that, whatever Abby does, like, is great. It's just kind of gravy. And so, like, that's where I was at. I think you started to pick that apart, like, pretty instantly, even when we were engaged by our little bet.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

And can I tell them the bet?

[Jared]

You can.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

So when we were engaged, actually the week after we got engaged, Jared accepted a job in Baltimore. And I was living in small town Manhattan, Kansas, at the time. And he took the job without talking to me, despite asking me to marry him a week prior, which was wild to say the least. I was so confused by that choice. But he ended up in Baltimore and I visited a lot. I tried to come at least once every six weeks or so. And the city is so interesting. It's rich in culture and, you know, with, you know, the boats coming in and the food and the people, it was just a really interesting place to be. And I kept trying to imagine myself moving there after we got married, and I just couldn't. I really just couldn't. I tried. I even looked at potential jobs and I just felt really out of my element. And so I bet, Jared. I said, hey, if I can get a job in Kansas City, which would have meant me moving two hours from where I was at the time. If I can get a job in Kansas City and make more money than you, then you need to quit and move back across the country, back to both, where we're both from. So we grew up 20 minutes apart, but didn't meet until we both went to the same university. And I ended up living two doors down from them in a dorm. But I think, to your point, yes, I may have challenged it out the gate and we probably should have known then things would look a little bit different. I also went in with all those same Midwest values, like, I assumed very much like you, that you would be the breadwinner. I thought I was marrying an architect that was going to practice and be in that professional environment for years to come. I definitely expected to quit whatever I was doing by the time we had children and be a stay at home mom. That's what my mom had done. That's what your mom had done. And, and so that was my expectation going in. So things definitely shifted more so than I anticipated. But I'm curious, were there moments, early days where you felt pressure, like from society, family or friends for not being the traditional provider? And like, how did you navigate that? And I suppose you should probably give them some context about your career and like, when you made the jump.

[Jared]

Yeah. So I started, as Abby said, you know, I got a master's degree in landscape architecture. I thought, you know, hey, this is going to be the dream career. I'm going to be in this, I'm going to retire in this. I'll own a firm, I'll, you know, do all that stuff. I moved to Baltimore. I was there about a year, getting the professional experience, moved back, went through a season of, you know, 2012. When I graduated college, we were still in the 2008 recession, like recovery. So to get a job in architecture was hard. It was very competitive. There were very few entry level positions. What they realized as I got further along in five to seven years of experience, because of when I did get started, they're like, oh, somebody with five to seven years of experience is in really high demand and more competitive, like in that market five years later than somebody new coming out of school. Because the 2008 recession created this big gap of people who had experience. So came back to Kansas City, we got married. Like, we bought our first house on Abby's income. Her income qualified us for our home loan. I took what, seven Nine months to, like, I wasn't working. I was doing some side things, but my primary job was renovating our house. And it took that, like, it took that time to get it done, get it complete, painting, all of that, kind of being scrappy and frugal and thrifty along the way. And then I got the corporate job here in town. I was very excited about it. I worked for an international firm, had about 400 people throughout all their offices on a small team. And part of the reason why I wanted to go work and, like, I had to see where this. I needed the experience to take the test to pass and become registered and licensed. That's the only way you could do it. Kind of like a fellowship if you were a doctor. And I did that. But the further I got along in it, the more it just, like, drained me. But Abby's over here starting this thing, also working a corporate job and then changing corporate jobs and facing this layoff soon after. And here's this thing that she has that, like, she's excited about. It's creative. And here I am, like, dreading waking up to go do this thing that I was, like, told, like, oh, go get this job. Go get this master's degree. Go get this job. Like, you're going to be in it for your whole life and raise up the ranks. And I'm like, how can somebody do this? So after about five years with that firm, mentally, I was in a pretty bad shape and my coping mechanisms were not healthy. I reflect back on, like, my coping mechanisms during this time was alcohol. And culturally in the company, you drank to have fun and drink to, like, relax. And they would have freaky Fridays, which is wild now, thinking back, like, being removed from it, as much time as I was in it. So, like, getting back to, like, where Abby's question. What was your question?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Were there moments in the early days where you felt pressure from society or family or friends about not being that traditional provider?

[Jared]

Yeah, but I was a traditional provider initially. Yeah, initially you were building this thing, you know, doing boss project, doing websites, doing the first membership, the biz chick co op. Like, I think society wise said you could go out on your own and.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Like, yeah, entrepreneurship was definitely becoming more accepted, for sure.

[Jared]

And, like, it's very common that an architect would go out on their own and create their own firm.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jared]

And, like, have their own job.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

It's kind of either that or I would say architecture is similar to law and that more often than not, once you get in a good firm, like, you Tend to stay for your whole career versus other jobs. Like if you ended up in advertising or marketing, you're going to jump every two to three years for the rest of your whole career. That's just not how architecture works. Works. I think it's starting to shift, but there's not a lot of competitors. Like in Kansas City, there's only two or three viable options for where you could work that like, are prestigious and large. Obviously you could get into shops, but.

[Jared]

Yeah, and like I could go to smaller firms.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah.

[Jared]

And do landscapes.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Likely take a huge pay cut to do. So. Yeah.

[Jared]

And so if I'm going to take a huge pay cut, I might as well get. Get the professional liability insurance and go practice for myself. As I was in that position, what I started to see was like our team would sub out work to wbe Women Business Enterprises. And it was like a husband and wife team ran the landscape design firm.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

So when you quit, you thought you'd work with me, like, but I would work in your business.

[Jared]

I mean, I was like, well, that could be an option. And I saw in this little dynamic, like the wife ran the business and led it and the husband just followed.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Okay, so you saw that dynamic. Yeah, but it still wasn't commonplace societally and definitely not in our region of the country. No, but what intrigued you about that?

[Jared]

The slow mornings, the lunches together, the coffee at home, the virtual nature of the business.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

So all the things you have to.

[Jared]

All the things I have today that I did today.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Well, I'm so glad that you get that as part of your normal everyday now. But I'm curious.

[Jared]

Well, I want to kind of. Yeah, I want to kind of finish. So in 2019, it was June 22, 2019. It was our anniversary weekend. You told me, just quit. Like, if you literally are this miserable, like doing it, like, just quit. Like I got you. Like, you made really affirming vocalization of decisions. Like you gave me the permission to say, look at this differently. Like the basic needs are met. The basic needs are met by what I can do. Plus some. So, like, at this point I'm only working for health insurance.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

And like I had your health insurance.

[Jared]

You had my health insurance. And you said to me, like, just quit. And I think we came home on that, like Saturday and I like drafted my resignation letter to take on Monday and my last day was July 5th.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. So that you got the free holiday.

[Jared]

I got the free holiday and I just didn't show up on the 5th. Like, I just took it as a PTO day, so it was fine. But. And then I think that at that time, we thought I was going to work in a different direction, and I was going to work on the wellness business and, like, doing some health coaching and caregiving.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

And you did, like. I don't think people realize at the time, I was kind of running two parallel companies at that point, and they were both bringing in income, and one required more customer service needs than I had time for. And you were already doing a lot of that on nights and weekends anyway. And so I think the thought was, okay, I will come here, I'll help take some weight off her shoulders so she has more room for growth. But I think both of us saw that as very temporary.

[Jared]

Yeah. I don't know if we had really played that out. You saw the need for me to, like, leave this space. That was.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

It was not healthy.

[Jared]

That was not healthy. Mentally, emotionally, physically, even, and, like, have some time to, like, regroup.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah.

[Jared]

And now we're here.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

We are. It's been. You've been home, what, almost six years?

[Jared]

Yeah. And I sometimes think about, like, you know, Abby says to me as the ambitious woman, the counterpart to that is a dreamer. And so I, like, think of all the futures and realities, like, oh, in this reality, I could do this. In this reality, I could do this. And I think about, like, what does it mean to get back into architecture? Like, there's a part of me that misses, like, one aspect of it, which is the, like, planting design. Because I see a lot of really crappy planting design out there, truly. And I'm like, I could get back into that. But then I'm like, but to get back into it means I have to go through all this stuff. I can't just come on and, like, just do planting design.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Right. I mean, you could, but if you were exclusive to that, you would either be a contractor for a bigger firm and they would, like, sub that out, or you would be working more likely, like, at a nursery instead of an architecture firm and doing install, like, design. And then they would install. They would have a crew for that design build, but that would be a huge pay cut compared to where you had been previously. And I don't know, personally, I was always hesitant for you to go back to something unless you absolutely loved it. Because to your point, we have so much flexibility and way more opportunities to say yes to things on a whim. Like, to today, 9:30 in the morning. Hey, my friend wants to go to brunch at 11. Like, you game? And we said yes, so that wouldn't be possible more than likely in a traditional work environment to just say yes to a long lunch at a weird time of day when you likely had other meetings and other obligations and other things on your plate. But we have a lot more flexibility here.

[Jared]

Well, and to get back to your question of like, pressure, outside forces, like, I think the biggest force that I saw was from my family of, like, you went to school to do this and now you're not doing it anymore. Like, like, are you okay? And it's taken me a lot of. It's taken me perspective of being removed from that and six years later to like be appreciative of the things that I did learn, like the project management skills, like team sort of teaching organization of a project, which is probably project management, budgeting. Like, there are things that I learned to do in the corporate architecture world that like, I feel serve me very well. And at the same time, I have discovered ways to flex that muscle and that knowledge set by like being on a building committee or volunteering for our homes association. Like other things that are kind of adjacent to that. Oh, and planning commission, let's not forget that one. Like other things that are adjacent to tapping into that knowledge bank so that I'm not setting it aside and forgetting about it.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I'm curious if you can remember like a specific moment when it really sunk in that, oh, like, my wife is not just ambitious, but she's going to be the breadwinner. Like, I'm going to take a backseat career wise, even kind of decision wise in that aspect of our lives.

[Jared]

Well, I think it was during some of your initial launches.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

What did that feel like? Like, I wasn't in your shoes.

[Jared]

I remember us, we were at a movie theater and you were like on your phone at the time and you're like, I got a sale. Cha Ching. The cash register thing was going off.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I don't think people all know that. Like, back in the day, I used to get notifications on my phone for every single purchase and I set it up so a cash register would ring. It was great.

[Jared]

And it was during when you were developing and creating Trello for business. And it was like, oh, like, this is real money. $29. Sales are adding up.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah.

[Jared]

And it's like, whoa, okay, you want to do it again? Like, what's the next thing? And then I'm trying to think of the launch that you did. I guess it was probably one of your strategy academy launches. Probably then you kind of led into. It's interesting, like how the iterations of thing have evolved in the business. And you had flipped, I remember you had flipped the offices because you thought that would be like so much better.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

You got really upset when I moved.

[Jared]

And I did get really upset because the guest bedroom, it was the guest bedroom, not your office. But my OCD really kicked in because things didn't fit right in that room. But anyways, you were doing an active strategy academy launch and you had hit 100,000 on it and it was like, whoa, that's all my salary plus benefits.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah.

[Jared]

And so it's like, why, like, this has covered a year's worth of stuff.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. In like a two week period.

[Jared]

Yeah. And so I think I began to like, believe that, like, oh, what she's really doing really does work. What she's really doing can and will set us up for success in the future.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

And for context, those things that you reference, they all happen before you actually left your job.

[Jared]

Yeah.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. Now I'm curious what happens now because we've been at this a while. Boss project has existed for 10 years. You've been quote, unquote, home full time for the last six. You've been working almost full time, part time, full time, salary, whatever, since 21. So four years. How do people typically react when they find out your wife is the primary breadwinner and you're supporting me behind the scenes?

[Jared]

Well, they want to know what you do. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the first thing. So I tell them, you know, you need to go to bossproject.com and we help small businesses grow and scale online and create digital products and they're kind of like, oh, oh, like, good for you. Some people react in the way that's like, maybe a little condescending.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I feel like sometimes they assume that I'm like playing business. Like it's not real or like, not significant.

[Jared]

Yeah. But then when I tell them that I work from home and I work for my wife, she owns the company, then they're like, oh. And then, you know, I've been met with like, oh, must be nice. Or, you know, she works and you play.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah.

[Jared]

And I'm like, no, not really. Like, sometimes. Sometimes. But that's the flexibility. Pieces.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Totally.

[Jared]

You know, that's the flexibility that lets me, you know, go to the doctor or, you know, whatever appointment that I have to have in the middle of the day or go to brunch with friends or something.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

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[Abigail Pumphrey]

What assumptions or like misconceptions have you run into about that dynamic? Like what it must be like, what do people assume about it?

[Jared]

Well, they assume that if that's the thing, if you're the one that runs the business, oh, you're my boss and I'm like, well, technically speaking, she owns the business. But like, like, yes, she calls the shots in business, but she doesn't call the shots in our marriage.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. So you think people assume that if that's our relationship at work, that it must be our relationship at home?

[Jared]

Yeah.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I mean, at home I would like to think that it's a partnership and that like no one's holding hierarchy over one another. But I don't necessarily feel like that's always been true. I think initially we both kind of fed into society's expectations that a woman, you know, should be a bit more submissive to their spouse. And I had a lot of issue with that. And I know it's ultimately changed how we've shown up in our day to day marriage. But I think in business, I think there's this mutual respect. Like yes, I am your boss and you listen to feedback and sometimes I can be critical. But there's also a level of respect and grace that I think is given because we are married well.

[Jared]

And I think I'm working. Like it's been a. Receiving feedback from you is probably one of the most challenging things at work for sure. Because if you were not you and I was not married to you and you gave me feedback because we were in an office, I think to some extent I would be a lot more loyal to that feedback.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. I don't think there's anything feedback wise I've done that's like overly harsh or delivery was rude or mean. But I see how easy it is to take it as personal when it's not. And we are at work.

[Jared]

Yeah. And it's about work and it's usually the feedback. Usually isn't earth shattering feedback.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

No, I would hope not. When we're talking about formatting an email.

[Jared]

Yeah. To me it's just if you get under my skin in our marriage that translates to work.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Do you feel like that's true? Vice versa?

[Jared]

Yes.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yes.

[Jared]

So I think it's a delicate balancing act between marriage, Jared and Abby and work, Jared and Abby.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I don't think you give us enough credit. I do think we are pretty clear on where the boundaries lie. And we'll even often preface like, especially if we're going to have a brief work interaction outside of business hours, we would say, hey, real quick, one business thing or hey, I'm putting on business mode for a second. But also at the same time, we won't hesitate to in the middle of a workday say, hey, I have a question as your husband or I have a question as your wife. Like, because we want to have the other person be thinking about where we're at when we're having that conversation. I'm curious if you've felt judged by other men or even women for. I don't want to call it an arrangement, but that's kind of what it is. And how have you handled those moments?

[Jared]

Well, now I think I handle it with knowing that the flexibility that we have, like, that's a huge value to me. Yeah, I recently did an exercise that was a value sort. And I think that there were things that were values and habits that 10 year ago me, I would have looked completely different than this current value sort. And one of those was, like, flexibility, like, flexibility is a huge value to me right now. And not just in the terms of like, being physically flexible, but being like, mentally cognitively flexible. To know that there are things and opinions that I cannot change and that there are things around me that have nothing to do with me, that just are circumstance or happenstance. And so, like, frankly, if a man or friend, which I think I've surrounded myself with, men like Eric, yeah, all.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Of them are very supportive that are.

[Jared]

Very supportive of me. So, like, if wives, if you want to bring your husband into your business, because somebody at the teachable conference was asking me, like, her husband wants to, like, is coming into the fold. And like, what did I think about that? How do I balance the two? And like, I think if you don't have people around you in your direct line that is like, supportive of that, like, you need to find new people that are supportive of that and, like, surround yourself with other couple friends that like, get it. I mean, our friend Kate and Matt, she runs the business. He, like, helped her actively with her staging and like, building furniture and stuff. And unlike, the two of them are a couple that I see as her thing grows, he's working with her full time. And they can do that. They have the energy to do the dynamic together. And so I would say that as long as you have the energy to work with your spouse and the grace and the flexibility to figure it out, let the rest go of the opinions because those are people that, looking at your situation, are probably pretty jealous of.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

What you have a hundred percent. And I agree. I don't necessarily feel like I've felt judged. I think sometimes I get these, like, weird side comments about how I must, like, treat you or, like, look down upon you, like I'm somehow above you. Not just like in a business role capacity, but that I must dominate the relationship. And I find that really frustrating. And generally those are from people that don't know us, like, hardly at all. But to your point, everyone in our close circle is very supportive. Even I would say more than half of them do not understand what we do for work. Like, they try to understand. They've looked at our website, listened to a podcast, and they just don't get it, and that's fine. But our, like, our life outside of work is very different than our life in work, and that's okay. But I think having a mix of people that are, like, in it where they have a similar circumstance, not necessarily that you have to have another duo where they're both working together, but having other entrepreneurial friends, I think makes a really big difference and the level of understanding, but also maturity. Like, we have plenty of friends that are older, some even retired, and they have kids our age that are super supportive. And I think part of it is just they've seen a lot and lived through a lot.

[Jared]

Well, and I think one of the things recently was about, like, authenticity and, like, the more that I am vulnerable and the more that I am authentic, like, I am able to break some preconceived notions of, like, what this is, what it means to work with your spouse and what it means to run a small business and what it means to run an Internet business. Like, it's been an evolution of emotions and evolution of feelings and thoughts and preconceived notions as we've moved forward in this.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Well, to that point. Do you feel like our dynamic has ever challenged your sense of identity or masculinity specifically?

[Jared]

I think that our business dynamic has challenged growing up. And, like, what I've tried to reconcile is, like, my worth, what I do for a living is attached to a monetary value, and that is through wages. So this has challenged my masculinity or my sense of worth in, like, the dollars that I'm able to create.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah, like, you had to unlearn or unravel that. Your worth is not equated to how much financially you bring to the relationship. Like, your value to me or our marriage.

[Jared]

Yeah. And like, to me, like, what is the currency that I want to operate in? Like, as I the record, your worth.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Has nothing to do with any sort of currency. You don't need to earn it.

[Jared]

I know, but, like, what I can earn or spend isn't necessarily money. It's more time.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I mean, you still have money to spend.

[Jared]

I know, but, like, as a mindset. Sure, as a mindset, as a heart feeling, I think that one of the challenges for masculinity has been about allowing your spouse to also make the final call or, like, collaboratively work together. To come to that decision has been something that I have had to really work on. How I communicate, you know, what I need in business when I need it. Same with you. I think, like, how a process works because it has the opportunity to, like, spill over into other areas.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. I mean, because in reality, you don't make the final call at work.

[Jared]

No.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

And I am okay with that.

[Jared]

I mean, I find myself more as an advisor or like a technical.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. I mean, I always. Investigator in mind. Like, I don't. If it makes sense, I will get your input, but there's plenty of things that I make decisions about that you're not even involved with the decision making at all. Even financially and sometimes in large sums of money. Like, there's more money being tossed around on a monthly basis inside the business than there is in our personal, like, living expenses.

[Jared]

Yeah. Well, and that's the other thing too, is like, money to me is something that has been a trigger.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Okay.

[Jared]

Like, when we had arguments early on in marriage, it was usually had some connection to money.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yes.

[Jared]

And the only way that this can work is, like, you're the one that knows your books of the business. If you want to share with me. Like, I think the one time I've looked at your books in the last two years was when we were doing a little, like, planning.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. We were like, January, I think we were auditing, like, reoccurring expenses.

[Jared]

Yeah. And we were doing that. And like, what were our top products that sold? What did that look like? What. Month over month? Like, what was the revenue? What was the expenses? I mean, very, like, basic stuff. But I, as your spouse, had to say, you know, I'm not going to get very deep on this. Like, just answer the question. You don't need to criticize. Like, this isn't your place to criticize. This isn't your place to judge. Just get the number and, like, have the conversation. Because at the same time, I have the habit of criticizing and scrutinizing small things that don't really matter. And then it just makes more of a problem for me.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

He said it, folks, not me. What's been the hardest part, emotionally, for you about reversed roles?

[Jared]

Well, lately it's been about our future and, like, what that looks like. We are two people that have been married for almost 12 years now. We went through a season of caregiving. We have this house. We both work from home, so that's also kind of hard. Our house is pretty quiet. And I think that, you know, we've been having the conversation about children and what that could look like. And I think emotionally it's like to appreciate and have gratitude for the thing that you have built, the thing that, that I was invited into in order to provide and help us as a Tool be able to be successful in these other areas of us dreaming of what our life looks like in the next 10 years.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah, I definitely think it's a vehicle, a tool, a resource, and more than anything, giving us the flexible time to kind of change and pivot as necessary. Do you think vulnerability is more difficult in a dynamic like ours, or do you think it's actually created space for more openness?

[Jared]

I think it's created space for more openness.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I agree.

[Jared]

I mean, also having your appendix out and having your whole limbic system reset with anesthesia, that also created a lot of vulnerability and openness.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

But, yeah, for those who weren't here to witness the chaos that Jared having emergency surgery ensued upon our family, it definitely allowed for some reassessment, addressing.

[Jared]

Well, and I used. I think, yeah, you know, I think that again, the stereotypical norms that a boy don't cry, a boy doesn't talk about his feelings, has been something that in recent months has become not only a necessity, but like, not just like a surface level necessity, but like a hardcore, like, part of my being. Like, the new version of me moving forward requires that level of vulnerability. Especially with you. Especially.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Do you think it's because I'm ambitious? Because I, you know, strive towards greatness? Do you think in some ways it requires you to behave a certain way, like, to, like, have a level of openness or vulnerability with me that maybe wouldn't happen in other dynamics?

[Jared]

I mean, I think, yes, you're ambitious, but when it comes to me, you're very present.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Well, that's sweet of you to say. I tried to pay attention to what you need and what you want and what your desires are, and not just in the moment, but maybe the things you're hesitant on or not fully speaking into existence yet? I mean, because I care about you and that's part of what partnership looks like.

[Jared]

Well, and I think the greatest gift that a wife can give to their husband is the ability to dream.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Really interesting. Why do you say that?

[Jared]

Because, again, I think it's the growing up, it was like, get to this level, get to this level, graduate college, find this job, be the provider, have three kids. Like, those were the things. And like, yeah, we did it up to the go to college, get a job, but I feel like everything else in the middle has been us figuring it out and has only come as the result of each one of us telling the other person, hey, this is what I'm feeling. Like, this is what I'm thinking. This is kind of what I want. This is what I see in my life. Like, what do you see? And then having some hard, heated, emotional conversations about it to then be able to come back together and say, this is how I can get there. And I think even if you're ambitious, you hold some of, like, my desires at the core of your ambitions.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. My direction is not just based on my own needs and wants.

[Jared]

Yeah. So is that selflessness? Probably. That's partnership in a marriage. Yeah. Is that just having a good marriage? Probably.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Is there anything unexpected you've learned about me but you didn't know until we started working together?

[Jared]

I learned that Abby is. She is somebody that she can commandeer room.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

What does that mean? Comedy. Your room.

[Jared]

Like, if you give this lady a mic, like, she has the. She has the capability of connecting with people and, like, getting them to, like, get vulnerable. And it's a complete room of strangers. I saw it a couple weeks ago. Like, you know, I mean, I get the point was connections, and, like, there was some stuff leading up to that that everybody got really vulnerable and, like, this tone. But, like, some of the people that came up to you afterwards and, like, some of the questions you were getting, like, didn't happen unless you developed a safe space to get that room together and be able to have that vulnerability with other people.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. That means a lot to me, and I appreciate you calling attention to that because, I mean, that's always been the goal. I've always wanted people to feel like they are in a safe and welcoming environment. I value inclusivity. And as someone who's felt like they didn't belong in a lot of rooms I've been in, if I can make someone else feel like they should be there, that feels like a gift to me. So I'm very grateful that that is what's projected. I'm curious if you have any advice for couples that might be thinking about working together, especially in unconventional ways?

[Jared]

Well, I would figure out what are the things that you would typically outsource to VA and ask your partner if they could take those on.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

A solid suggestion.

[Jared]

Operational things. Maybe it's publishing your podcast or your blogs, or maybe it's. You know, for a long time I was a volunteer and I would help with Inbox and help with, like, DMs, like, and moderating Facebook comments. So, you know, simple things that could be done and they. It could even be done, like, you know, if they haven't totally exited their career or their W2 job. Like, those are things that they could do of an evening or, you know, early in the morning or during a lunch break and get a feel for it. Say, is this something that I want to do? Is this the exposure that I want? Also, it gives them the opportunity to learn more what you do. Because I think for a long time, I, you know, I knew what you did, but I didn't know what you did.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Now you know.

[Jared]

Now I know what she did. I know a lot. And it was funny. I've caught myself recently, like, regurgitating some things that you had said. And I was like, oh, that's an email list jumpstart. Because, you know, I'm like, learning the content and learning the things that you're teaching. And I can also come in. The other good thing is, is, like, I'm also a good sounding board to these things.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Well, you're literally the only person on the planet who's had a front row seat the entire time. And so. And you have a far better memory than I do.

[Jared]

I'm confident you remember the moment from an audible standpoint.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Oh, it's absolutely wild what you can remember. Has there been anything that's, like, surprised you in a good way about how this is all shaken out?

[Jared]

Surprised? I mean, the fact that, like, we're in the creator economy, like, we never knew what to call it.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Well, because it didn't have a name. When I started, this wasn't an industry. Now there's whole tools and softwares and businesses is all mapped up around it. One more question and then we're going to wrap it up. I'm curious. What do you hope other men hear or understand from your perspective?

[Jared]

Trust your wife.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Is that exclamation point?

[Jared]

That's like 10 exclamation points.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Oh, okay.

[Jared]

You know, and I think that not trusting your wife probably comes from you don't trust yourself.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

All right?

[Jared]

And if you don't trust yourself, you don't trust your wife. You need to go to therapy.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I've done the Lord's work. This is not something he would have said 17 years ago. So, like, for that.

[Jared]

Seriously.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Seriously, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. And I hope you guys got some insight. If you have any other weird, specific curiosities around our dynamic or our relationship. You know, he does happen to have an office right upstairs from me, so I can definitely bring him back on the show. So feel free to send us a DM over at Abigail says on Instagram. We'd love to hear your other questions or podcast ideas. And it doesn't have to be me co hosting with him if you have other ones that you just want to see on the show. We're always open to suggestions. So any final words before we sign off and say goodbye?

[Jared]

Thank you.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Oh, to who?

[Jared]

To you for just believing that this could be a thing.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

You're welcome.

[Jared]

Especially the 2019 version to say just quit.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Well, I love you a lot and I am so grateful that we get to work together and I know it is a huge blessing and also advantage and it may be different from what the rest of the world expects, but I wouldn't have it any other way. So pretty.

[Jared]

I'm here for it.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Awesome. Well, we're gonna go chill on the couch so you can just tune into a different episode. So we're gonna go now. You just click play on the next one and I'll be around.

Hey, a few quick favors before you leave. I'd love if you'd share today's episode, send it to a friend who needs to hear it and post on social. You can show us where you're listening from, your favorite takeaway or why someone else should listen. Be sure to tag me at Abigail says and at Boss Project so we can share it.

Okay.

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Until next time.