976: Doing Less Than You’re Capable Of – A Conversation with Jo Espejo on the Branded Impact Podcast

Summary

Episode Summary: "Doing Less Than You’re Capable Of – A Conversation with Jo Espejo"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Strategy Hour | Online Marketing for Business Growth
• Host: Abigail Pumphrey, CEO of Boss Project
• Episode: 976
• Guest: Jo Espejo
• Release Date: July 31, 2025

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Introduction: Revisiting an Essential Conversation

In this special rerun episode of the Strategy Hour podcast, host Abigail Pumphrey brings forward an insightful interview from the Branded Impact Podcast featuring Jo Espejo. Recognizing the profound relevance of their discussion, Abigail emphasizes the importance of addressing the theme "Doing Less Than You’re Capable Of," a topic that resonates deeply with her mission to help entrepreneurs build sustainable online businesses without burnout.

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Building an Authentic Brand

Understanding Authenticity in Branding

Abigail shares her journey from founding "Think Creative," a design agency, to evolving into "Boss Project," focusing on educating entrepreneurs worldwide. She highlights the pivotal role that authentic branding played in her success:

Abigail Pumphrey [07:41]: "I was able to ultimately teach entrepreneurs all over the world. I've had over 41,000 students. My podcast has been downloaded four and a half million times or something crazy like that."

Abigail emphasizes the importance of leveraging one's background to appear established from the outset:

Abigail Pumphrey [07:42]: "Using my background. So I came out the gate looking like I'd been in business because I was branded, like I had been in business. Like I wasn't coming out as like a novice looking personal blogger."

Avoiding the Pitfall of Mimicry

Jo Espejo observes a common mistake among high-achieving women entrepreneurs:

Jo Espejo [22:07]: "I think so often it's an attempt to mimic or look like someone else and they really need to figure out who they are."

Abigail concurs, urging entrepreneurs to focus on authenticity over trend-following:

Abigail Pumphrey [23:29]: "If your goal is to build a business, you have to be genuinely yourself and put that front and center."

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Designing a Sustainable Business Around Your Bandwidth

Balancing Ambition with Real-Life Constraints

Abigail advocates for designing businesses that align with one’s personal life and energy levels rather than striving for infinite scalability. She emphasizes creating guardrails to maintain balance:

Abigail Pumphrey [11:02]: "Create a business that allows you to not only sustain the life you have, but build towards the life you want and secure a financial future."

Practical Guardrails: Setting Boundaries

Sharing personal experiences, Abigail explains how setting specific work hours transformed her business and personal life:

Abigail Pumphrey [13:12]: "I only work four days a week and I work 22 to 27 hours a week ... but I earn a full time income."

Jo adds the importance of gradual change to achieve sustainable work-life harmony:

Jo Espejo [17:35]: "I started with every other Friday, trying to block some me time. And then eventually I'm going to get to that full four day work week."

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Mastering Time Management with Time Audits

Identifying How You Truly Spend Your Time

Abigail introduces the concept of a time audit as a foundational step toward life design:

Abigail Pumphrey [47:42]: "One of the most logical places to start ... is a time audit. ... record all of it and then break that up into categories after the fact."

Aligning Daily Activities with Long-Term Goals

By conducting a time audit, entrepreneurs can discern whether their current time allocation aligns with their envisioned life:

Abigail Pumphrey [47:42]: "If you have to do that every week for the next year, would you still be happy? And if you answer no, then, like, we need to pay attention to that."

Jo reinforces the transformative power of time audits in reshaping one's daily life:

Jo Espejo [49:38]: "What I have found from doing time audits is that my perception where I thought I was spending time wasn't always truly where I was spending time."

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Strategic Rebranding: When and How to Pivot

Recognizing the Need for Change

Abigail discusses the delicate balance between maintaining brand consistency and evolving to reflect personal and business growth:

Abigail Pumphrey [35:50]: "As far as rebranding myself, I've done it far more than three times. But the rebranding, the business always had some sort of causation."

Authentic Rebranding Practices

She advises against frequent rebranding, instead promoting intentional and incremental changes:

Abigail Pumphrey [44:12]: "If your brand is starting to not match who you are, then you need an edit... make slow changes so that no one is surprised."

Jo adds that rebranding should mirror personal evolution, ensuring that external perceptions align with internal realities:

Jo Espejo [45:23]: "Your brand should evolve just like we get rid of pieces of clothing that no longer fit right."

Practical Triggers for Rebranding

Abigail suggests evaluating whether your online persona still reflects your true self as a signal to consider rebranding:

Abigail Pumphrey [41:02]: "If your brand is not matching... like, do you look at your branding and feel like you see yourself?"

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Embracing the Philosophy of "Doing Less"

The Power of Intention over Overextension

Central to the episode is the concept of intentionally doing less to achieve more sustainable success. Abigail challenges entrepreneurs to recognize when they are overextending themselves:

Abigail Pumphrey [19:08]: "What if you intentionally didn't try to hit 100%?"

Breaking Free from the Productivity Trap

Jo discusses the societal pressure to be perpetually productive and the importance of accepting moments of rest:

Jo Espejo [20:20]: "You don't have to be doing something right now. That was the whole point of you doing this piece."

Balancing Effort with Results

Abigail underscores that working harder doesn’t always equate to increased income, advocating for efficiency over sheer effort:

Abigail Pumphrey [18:03]: "You working more is not always going to unlock more income. Those things are not correlated."

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Final Insights and Actionable Advice

Commit to Authenticity and Intentionality

Abigail encourages listeners to take tangible steps toward aligning their business practices with their personal values and life goals:

Abigail Pumphrey [47:42]: "Look at how you're actually doing it and then making changes, that's what's going to make a difference in your life."

Implementing a Time Audit

She reiterates the importance of conducting a time audit to gain clarity on current time expenditures and to inform strategic adjustments:

Abigail Pumphrey [47:42]: "If you haven't documented how you're spending your time, I would do so for a week."

Cultivating Sustainable Growth

Abigail closes with a reminder that sustainable business growth stems from thoughtful planning, authentic branding, and balanced work-life integration.

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Conclusion: Empowering Sustainable Entrepreneurship

This episode serves as a profound exploration of sustainable business practices, emphasizing authenticity, intentional time management, and strategic rebranding. Abigail Pumphrey and Jo Espejo collaboratively provide valuable insights and actionable advice for entrepreneurs seeking to build profitable online businesses without succumbing to burnout. By embracing the philosophy of "doing less," entrepreneurs are empowered to focus on what truly matters, fostering both personal fulfillment and business success.

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For more resources and to connect with Abigail Pumphrey, visit bossproject.com.

Transcript

[Abigail Pumphrey]

But if your goal is to build a business, you have to be genuinely yourself and put that front and center. So really being mindful of hey, I like this thing. Not hey, I'm trying to mimic or be this thing today welcome to the Strategy Hour podcast brought to you by Boss Project. I'm your host Abigail Pumphrey and I'm dedicated to supporting online businesses. I don't believe in one right way to build a business. I'm here to help you build business your way, one that supports not only the life you have, but the life you want. I'm on a personal mission to help you become financially free. I'm taking all the lessons learned as I turned a layoff into a seven figure online business. I'm here to help you prioritize your life every step of the way. Whether you're creating your first digital product, growing an email list, or scaling an already profitable business. Settle in. It's time to talk strategy.

[Jo]

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[Abigail Pumphrey]

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[Jo]

Hello and welcome back. Today's guest is someone who has been redefining what it means to build a business on your terms. Abigail is the owner and CEO of the Boss Project, where she helps service providers build profitable, sustainable businesses without the burnout. In this episode, we're digging into what it means to build a brand around your brand with how to shift out of hustle mode and why sustainability is the new Success metric. If you're growing but feeling misaligned, this one is for you. Abigail, thank you so much for joining me. I would love for you to start with what originally inspired you to create the Bras project and what does branding mean to you today?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

There's, there's a lot to this, but to give you a little background, I originally launched my brand as Think Creative. Initially it was an agency, a design agency. My background is in graphic design and so I was serving local small businesses and their graphic design needs. Anything from business cards to setups for conventions to website design. It was kind of all over the place. I eventually like honed in on website design being the main thing I was doing for clients. But throughout that journey, I started posting consistently, primarily on a blog at the time, about what it took to grow my business, how I was landing clients, how, how I was doing high end sales, how I was using XYZ software. And ultimately that started to grow an audience. And they weren't necessarily my ideal clients on the agency side. I needed to do something with them. And so over time I ultimately morphed into focusing more primarily on the education piece. It went from Think Creative to Think Creative Collective and then eventually was rebranded as Boss Project. Ten years later, I'm. I'm feeling like it's not quite the name that I want to stick with for the rest of my career, so we'll see if it morphs again. But I was able to ultimately teach entrepreneurs all over the world. I've had over 41,000 students. My podcast has been downloaded four and a half million times or something crazy like that.

[Jo]

That's amazing.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

And I think in terms of branding, what ultimately really gave me a leg up, in my opinion, was using my background. So I came out the gate looking like I'd been in business because I was branded, like I had been in business. Like I wasn't coming out as like a novice looking personal blogger. I looked like a company from the get go. And I think that made a huge difference in the trajectory of where my business has ultimately gone.

[Jo]

I've seen that so many times and I often hear, though the opposite. Like I keep hearing people say, once I'm successful or once I hit this milestone, then I will invest in branding, whether that be the professional anything, logo, design, creative, all that stuff. But I have found those that invest in the branding early. And I'm not saying you have to go do like the crazy expensive, but like the ones that come out of the gate looking, like you said, the business that's Already in. Not the novice, not the diy.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. And I do think it's different than it was 10 years ago. You know, 10 years ago it was like, how do I make sure my website kind of matches the Persona of the kind of person I want to give off now? I don't necessarily think a website is less critical. It definitely helps you long term in terms of long term sustainable growth. But if we're talking about like looking legit out the gate, I'm talking more about using professional photography. And if you're going to do video instead of just doing everything in app, you kind of developing a signature editing style can make a really big difference in people noticing you. Now I realize all of that is a time investment, but it can be really worth it in the long term. I do think people don't do it early because they're not sure who they are yet. Like they, they're not sure where they're going or what their business is going to turn into. And while I totally understand, I do think you picking a direction for now is going to help you can ultimately morph and edit and change and pivot and do all of those things later. So you're not marrying the look and feel of the brand you create today. You're creating a foundation for you to grow from.

[Jo]

I love that and I say that often. I'm like, you're not marrying it. Just pick sometimes. Even though I say about being a perfectionist, I'm like, done is better than perfect. Let's just get started. And then as you grow and as you evolve, so can your brand. And you were just even talking about how your brand has evolved over time. You started as think creative and then it changed again. And then now you've been the boss project and you're even thinking about maybe as you're morphing and you're evolving, you're like, maybe this doesn't fit anymore. You're just going to change. And I think that's totally fine. One of the things that you talk about when you're designing your business and I've heard you say this is designing around your bandwidth. Can you share what that looks like in practice? Because I think that's one of those, it's almost like branding. It's like one of those like, okay, everything in balance and everything in these pieces. But I love the bandwidth approach. And then sometimes it also is like, okay, but what does that really mean?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

So what I'm really saying is I want to see more people design businesses that make sense in the context of their real lives. So many people go out with a plan that is built around making something scalable, and they're thinking about, how can I make sure that this works with two people, with 10 people, with 100 people, with a thousand people? And while there's definitely some of that that has to be included in the equation, I don't think infinite scalability is the goal. I think creating a business that allows you to not only sustain the life you have, but build towards the life you want and secure a financial future, that's the dream. And the majority of small business owners I know have no interest in running a $10 million company or $100 million company or a billion dollar company. They just want to feed their families and live a good life. And if you go in with that context, you can start to define those boundaries a bit early on. Now, it's not to say that there aren't going to be periods of your business where you're working harder or more hours. I'm not saying that time doesn't exist, but you can put up guardrails that help you design something that you can maintain yourself within a reasonable amount of time on a weekly basis and make that work for the season of life you're in right now and when that season of life changes, because it will. Like, you're not going to stay at the same capacity all the time. You're going to have a baby, or you're going to have a health challenge, or you're going to have a move across country, or like, there's a million reasons why your life will go down a new path. And those are inflection points when we have to really reflect on what makes sense for our business today and how do I make sure it makes sense for tomorrow and the things I'm going to be coming up against.

[Jo]

Do you have some examples of some guardrails that you've put in place?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Oh, for sure. So in terms of what that looks like, I used to have no boundaries around the time of day that I worked. I was working nights, weekends, every kind of gap in my day. The moment my husband left for work to the moment he came home. We'd have dinner together, maybe watch a show, he would go to bed. I would keep working. That's obviously not sustainable. So at one point, you know, my boundaries came in that I was going to work only during certain hours of the day, 95% of the time would stick to that. There's obviously still exceptions to the rule today. That's still true. But now I only work four days a week and I work 22 to 27 hours a week or something like that, if you were to add it all up, which is part time in the grand scheme of things, but I earn a full time income. That is ultimately the thing that funds my whole family. Like my husband is full time in my business too. And this is what we're doing. This is it.

[Jo]

That's it. You're all in.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I am all in.

[Jo]

I laughed when you said because I lived that where it is like you are fitting it in. And so part of me has lived this world where because of this phase of my life, my kids are needing to be ubered everywhere and I want to be present. But then I feel like I am working sometimes in the in between. But then there are times where I get to be intentional about, okay, it's summer, I am going to cut back on the work so I can be more intentional and be more present for family vacations. And all those pieces and then whether or not you are launching or scaling or doing something new does require pieces. But I love the boundaries piece and I do love the fact. And your shift on what are you really wanting? Because I see that so often in the scaling, you're working so hard and then you move the bar again and then you just kind of feel like you're in this constant state of like, I'm not where I want to be and pushing versus really just what is it that you really want and what does that look like? And you're right. Most of it comes down to I want to provide a certain amount of money so that I can impact my family, I can create a legacy and I can create this life that I'm looking to live. And a lot of us say time freedom and then we end up flipping the switch and we are not getting time freedom. We are inundated with all of the things that we are doing in the wrong model. So question when you find yourself in that, what is the number one, do you have a tip as far as how to shift yourself out? You are working too much and it is not creating the life that you thought you wanted.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah, I think part of it is really defining, what do you want? Because someone listening to the show is going to be like, oh, well, I need to have a more structured amount of time. I work and I can only work these hours or whatever. But is that actually what you want? Like, there's plenty of people that do want to be able to work at 10:00pm and 6:00am and 2:00 clock in the afternoon and like go on a hike or take their kids to this activity or do whatever. You have to define what it is that you're actually looking to have your life look like. And instead of building towards something that will allow you to unlock that, what amount of that can you just start living right now? You know, part of that is really being intentional about noticing what those things are. So for me, I love a slow start to the morning. Like staying in my pajamas, laying in bed, flipping through some videos, having breakfast on the deck, maybe going for a walk, listening to a book, getting ready. Like, and I might not actually hit my desk until 10am and I used to beat myself up about it. Like you have to get ready and start your day and like be at your desk and be productive. And then it was like, wait, the life I want is slow mornings and like not feeling this pressure to have to be on all the time. I don't have to do anything different. Like I can have that now. Like, I don't need more money to have that now. I can just have that now, now.

[Jo]

Oh, I love that approach.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Really focusing on how you can incorporate those moments into your day or structure into your day or lack of structure into your day. Whatever it is that you're looking for, what percentage of that can you adapt now? And I realize a lot of it can only be unlocked with more finances. So I'm not naive to that privilege. I get that. But also know that like you working more is not always going to unlock more income. Those things are not correlated.

[Jo]

That's so true. And I think sometimes creating it's the life by design, but creating that space, one of the things that I've tried to do because I'm like, yeah, that sounds amazing. And I would love to have a slower start or to be able to work out or I intentionally am. Like, I want to make sure I'm present until my kids leave for school and then I want to try to be home most days once they're back from school. So I am one of those people that I really do enjoy working, especially editing and all those pieces once everyone's gone to sleep because I'm like peaceful, it's quiet, I can really zone out. But starting with doesn't have to be every day if that's your goal. For me, I started with every other Friday, trying to block some me time. And then eventually I'm going to get to that full four day work week, but I'm not there right now. But that's where I've Started with putting some pieces and can I start to design that? But slowly? That's your ideal. It doesn't have to be. I say the same thing. When you're creating content, if you've done nothing, don't tell yourself you're going to do it seven days a week. Anytime you're trying to create some habit, pick it up in a way that you can do it and eventually become consistent. Stick with it and then you can add more.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Well, and I think to that end, something that I said in a podcast recently that I just cannot stop thinking about is doing less than you're capable of. We are often creating, showing up, spending time in a way that is unsustainable. We are doing past our max capacity of whatever it looks like, energy, emotion, time, money, all of it. What if you did less than you could do because you could do all of these things you could do. I could list a million things I'm confident you listening could accomplish. But what if you intentionally didn't try to hit 100%?

[Jo]

That's a shift that most people are not comfortable with. And I think that's the piece. And it's like being okay. There's been times where I've been intentional about just sitting and not planning something and then I have to go in my mind like, it's okay, you don't have to be doing something right now. That was the whole point of you doing this piece. But then we sit there and we're struggling with we should be doing something, we should be active, we should be productive. And then you get caught up in this vicious cycle you do.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

And I promise you that people are doing far less and making far more money and they're making it far less complicated. Like, I know the reason you're listening to the show is because you care and you want to act a certain way and look a certain way and perform a certain way and get certain results a certain way. But like there's someone on TikTok that makes a full time living. I'm confident from smearing. I don't know if it's whipped cream or shaving gel or what, but a head to toe all over their body and they sit in a shower. And like I have come across this on my feed a couple of times, but you look at her feed and it's 100% that and she has so many followers and I'm sure she's completely monetizing based off of views and nothing else. And her entire get up is that she is just shock value. It's just like, what the heck is happening? Like, that's, that's the entire point. And I think so often we are so focused on, like having a legitimate offer and having a great client experience and having the perfect branding and like all of this stuff. And it's like, more isn't better. You having a simple approach that consistently brings you in a level of income that affords you the life that you want. That's all we're striving for since so.

[Jo]

Simplified in this world where we're like constantly on the go. So we've been kind of talking about some of the mistakes that we make and things like that. But if you were to like, look at it, what's one of the top two that you see, like high achieving women make in regards to branding? Is it trying to do too much? What are your thoughts on that?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I think so often it's an attempt to mimic or look like someone else and they really need to figure out who they are. I get it. I love paying attention to what other creators are doing. I'm inspired by their use of typography or color or graphics or even how they choose to show up from a personality perspective. And I can be inspired by all of those things. But I really have to spend time thinking about who am I without influence, who am I without feeling like I have to hit a certain trend? Who am I without feeling like I have to be conscious of what's gonna go viral or work? Because I promise you, the content that will perform the best is content that is most authentic to who you actually are and isn't performative. If you want to be a comedian or an actor or like, put on a Persona, that is a career option. But if your goal is to build a business, you have to be genuinely yourself and put that front and center. So really being mindful of, hey, I like this thing. Not, hey, I'm trying to mimic or be this thing.

[Jo]

Oh, I love that. That was a great piece of advice.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. As far as another one that a ton of people make. Let's see. I think a lot of people spend far too much time thinking about what is working right now in the context of the world we live today. Like, how is this particular social media app performing? How are people buying? What's their buying behavior? Like, how are people doing XYZ things? And we are choosing to follow behind ultimately behind someone else who is leading the way. I would encourage you to think about if you were doing what you want to do more of or what you want to do when you don't see anyone doing. What would that be? That is far more important and will get you far, further faster than trying to follow the leader, be the leader. Put yourself out there. Don't do the thing that everyone's already done. Do the thing first. And that's hard because obviously being novel is not all that common these days. But you can do something new. I promise. Getting there is a bunch of testing. It's a bunch of experimentation. It's a bunch of putting yourself out there. And on the other side, that's where we can kind of contend with who we want to become. It's only then that we need to be worried about that.

[Jo]

So I love the authenticity piece and I love the challenge to be you and try something new. But when should someone realize that they need to pivot or rebrand? And I think you're tying it in. And this is where I think if we piece in the don't mimic and don't be like somebody else. And you want to be authentic. I think for me, a lot of that comes back to what is your vision, what is your passion, and what can you truly sustain? Because you can sustain being yourself, because that's who you are. Trying to sustain being like someone else can be exhausting. But for those that have been trying, and it's almost like you feel like you're beating a dead horse or knocking your head against the wall, when do you recommend? Because there has to be some sort of. You have to try it. And you can't try it for a week and then bail, because that's not enough time. You have to be consistent for a little while to see if it's working. When should someone be like, okay, maybe I need to rethink my offer, or maybe it is time for a rebrand. I think that's the piece that's a million dollar question that I think a lot of people are like, okay, when is enough enough?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Sure. So I just finished the book the Dip by Seth Godin. And in the book he's specifically talking about when to endure and when to quit. And he argues that we need to be quitting more often than we are, and we need to quit more and, like, sustain less things ultimately. But to get to the point of success, we need to not bail on the things that matter. And he talks about enduring the dip essentially where, like, you've started a thing, you've maybe consistently shown up in a thing, and you're essentially trudging through the muck until you get to the point of, quote, success on the other side, whatever that ultimately is. And how do you determine what those things are? What, what do you need to let go of versus what should you keep going on? And I don't think there's a perfect answer. Like, I genuinely think you have to really ask yourself, like, are you quitting because it's hard or are you quitting because it's not in alignment? Are you quitting because it doesn't match your values or your morals? Are you quitting because you want to spend your time doing something else? You need to really assess where that's coming from. And if it's just because it's hard and you don't want to do the work, I mean, you can quit, but that's probably the thing that's going to be the thing you're supposed to be spending more time on. And so many people, 80% quit or 90% quit, but they like don't like totally let it go. And that's the thing that's literally pulling weight behind them, preventing them from moving forward. And they just gotta cut that off. They gotta figure it out, they gotta cut it off. And now I think all of that sounds far better an idea than it is in practice because it's challenging. Like, how do you know what that actually is? But if you are really mindful of that timepiece and your actual capacity, it's likely about being more selective as to your priorities. So if I think if you have your priorities in alignment, it'll become far more clear how you should be spending your time and what you should trudge through the dip on versus what you should let go. Want to learn exactly, step by step how to get paid to generate leads in your business. I'm ready to give you the exact steps that help me generate tens of thousands of qualified leads and millions in low ticket digital product sales. I won't just show you what I did, but teach you how you can do it too. I'm talking not just how to create low ticket digital products, but also showing you how to use them strategically to generate leads for your other existing or future offers. I'm sharing it [e-mail] jumpstart including exactly how I made $8033 and generated 277 leads my very first month selling digital products. Find out [e-mail] jumpstart the McDonald's snack wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap.

[Jo]

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[Abigail Pumphrey]

Snack wrap is back.

[Jo]

This episode is brought to you by Greenlight get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treatment start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free trial at greenlight.com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

With the price of just about everything.

[Jo]

Going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile Unlimited Premium wireless. Everybody get 30, 30 better get 30, better get 20, 20, 20 better get 20, 20 everybody get 15, 15, 15 15. Just 1515 bucks a month. So give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to 15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra see mintmobile.com that's awesome. I think one of the things that I tend to see a lot of us do is we're holding onto something because we said that's what we wanted to do. We got started with this idea and intent and sometimes you nailed it. You're like, yes, this is so fulfilling. It's a great what I want to do. I'm starting to see success. And then there's also times where I know for myself I went down a path and I love newborn photography. I think it is amazing. I think the babies are beautiful and I had this grand vision of doing that. And then I found myself about a year and a half in dreading newborn sessions. It was exhausting. My body hurt. I didn't love it and I was like, but I'm choosing to do this because I said I was going to. And so I actually had to take a step and realize this is an alignment. I don't enjoy it. I don't want to dread going to work. That wasn't the whole point and the whole purpose. Now I'm like, bring me all the newborn babies to snuggle with and then go find the newborn photographer. That is amazing at newborn photography. And that when she gets your client session booking, she's lighting up, not going, oh God, here we go. And I think that's a great way. At least for me. That's been a Nice check in. Am I doing this? Because it does bring me joy and I do enjoy it. And now it's hard. Like, yes, I still have to go find the clients. And there is. Entrepreneurship is for the faint of heart. I tell people that all the time. You cannot join this thinking it's going to be easy. This is not an easy way out.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

It's not the easy way out. But I do think there is things that you will inevitably have to do and endure that aren't fun and are just part of it. And so I think you can go too far with, like editing based on this doesn't bring me joy because that could mean you stop, you know, doing your bookkeeping and then you have tax fraud and you go to jail. Like, there's literally consequences for giving up some of the things you don't like doing. So that's true. You have to be paying attention on both ends of the spectrum and hit that happy middle. As far as like, should I do it because I do or don't like it? I think if you're the kind of person that like, sticks to your promises to yourself, then you may have a hard time quitting. I'm the kind of person that has no problem quitting promises to myself, but I have a really hard time quitting promises I've made to other people. And so I'm more likely to hang on to things that are outward facing than internal. Just by the nature of how I make decisions and how I operate in my daily life. I think that makes it easier to understand where you're probably holding onto it. Because clearly I have no problem letting go of things that take up my time because it's about me. But if I'm worried about, oh, but I built this product with my students in mind and now I want to shut it down. Like, that's the thing I'm going to be like, but it's helping people. But it's dated. But I need to redo it. But I don't want to redo it. But it doesn't make sense. Like, that's the thing I'm going to struggle with. And I think people are going to end up on both ends of the spectrum and you just have to figure out where you are. I think it's a matrix. I can't remember the name of the matrix, but essentially it's a combination of how do you hold promises both externally and internally? And. And it's a quadrant. So some of you can do it really well outwardly, but not inward. Some of you can do it really well inward, but not outward. Some of you can do both. Like, you keep all of your promises and then some of you are going to be a rebel where you do none of that. You don't do either one. And based on that, that's going to give you a better idea of, like, what are the things you're actually going to struggle with letting go of. If you're a rebel, you probably, like, you're listening to this and you're like, why are we still talking about quitting? But everyone else, everyone else is struggling with what to let go of.

[Jo]

Well, and I'm still like, okay, yes, please don't let go of the thing that's going to end you up in jail. But I will say too, for the outsourcing piece, that's maybe a check in too, for, like, if it's something that's got to be done to move your business or keep it in flow, then maybe it is time to look at bringing on some help to have somebody come in. I think that was one of the things that I, when I was looking at outsourcing, I was like, okay, what can I let go of? It was not okay. I cannot do that. Bookkeeping was one of the first things I was happy to let go of. I brought on someone because I was like, you know what, sitting here and looking at what's going in and what's going out and how to match it up in QuickBooks, I was like, you might as well. No, I don't want to. I would leave it for once a year and that was an entire nightmare. So I don't recommend doing that. Stay consistent. But maybe look at outsourcing and bringing that on. So as Abigail said, end up in jail because you want to make sure that everything is good and all of your pieces, okay, so you have rebranded yourself and you've done it a couple times and you're even considering doing it again. But what was one of the things that changed about your approach each time?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah, so I mean, if we're talking about rebranding myself, I've done it far more than three times. But the rebranding, the business always had some sort of causation. Like there was a reason to make the change. I think there's a lot of power and consistency. So I don't actually recommend like a full rebrand very often because you can invest a lot of time, effort, money into things like search engine optimization. And if you go and change the name of your brand every five seconds, like, you're never going to build authority online. And so you do have to do these things in a very intentional way. I think as far as you though, you can do pivots whenever you want, but like, how you're publicly perceived is not necessarily the same. And so I think your public perception shifting is something that you have to control far more than all the internal pieces of running a business and being a creator, that can shift and change. For example, I grew a team to 10 full time employees. We were doing over a million dollars a year in business. We had a launch that did over $300,000. All of that sounds great on paper, all of it. And I found myself completely removed from the creation piece of the business. I was essentially like the show pony. Like, I showed up to teach the workshop, to record the PODC podcast, and every other piece of my time was spent managing people. But I enjoy being a creator. Like, I love to write, I love to create, I love to connect with people. And I became so far removed. So a pivot I made was how I structured my business internally. And that wasn't something I did overnight. I didn't go and like fire 10 people all at once. Like, that wasn't ethically in alignment for the kind of person I am. But when people left, I didn't backfill their position. I let go of more things. I stopped taking on so many new opportunities and really honed in on what I was offering and ultimately did less. It took time. It took four years of transition. But now I'm at the point where it's just me and one other person full time and everyone else is just contractors and I feel so much lighter. And it'd be really easy to say, oh, she like rebranded herself and like now she's like this solopreneur, blah, blah, blah. That's not how I changed. Like, I changed internal structure, but how I talk out loud. Like, the majority of people would have no clue that I got to 10 employees and have no clue. I'm back down to two, none. Like, people would just not know. And I think you have to be conscious of what is going out the door versus what's happening behind closed doors. I think it's kind of my way to talk about it. But if there's something more specific you want to dig into, they're happy to.

[Jo]

I think the biggest piece, it just ties back into the authenticity of it. And then as you're rebranding, so there's so many facets and faces to running a business. And I think you nailed the fact that sometimes Happening behind the scenes, no one sees it and we get caught up in it because it's impacting us. You making the decision to go from having 10 full time employees to not backfilling to slowly. And I applaud you for the moral side of I'm not just going to fire everyone today because it's a knee jerk reaction. It's like, no, I built the company to hear it's not in alignment with what I want and how I see it going. So I'm going to pivot. And you did it over time. I think that's a testament to when you're building a business and you're doing all these pieces, more of it runs in our head as far as what's tied into what people see. But you get to control the narrative that's on the outside. And then when it comes to rebranding, for me, a lot of times when I'm talking about branding on the visual side of branding is what are you putting out there? And as you are evolving and as you are growing, you get to shift that. But it all comes back to being authentic. I think that for me, who I was five years ago is, I'm a completely different person today. When you look at my business, you look at my branding from five years ago and you look at it now, it's morphed and shifted, but so have I. I feel very aligned with where I am now. I think that's where has there been a trigger? Like, do I look at my branding and feel like I see myself? Because I want people to look at my branding and feel like they're getting to know me. Do you have any tips or things like that on the rebranding side where it's like, this may be time, like, if you're looking at your branding and your materials or you're going to put something out there, like, is there some kind of trigger where you're like, maybe it's time for a brand photo refresh or to kind of manipulate some of the visual side.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

I mean, I think a lot of it comes down to does who you are match online as you are in person? So for example, I, when I started my business, I had this like pastel, like soft, nurturing looking brand. It was very quiet and had like a calligraphy font logo and all this stuff. And if you walked into my closet, it is literally a rainbow. Like, there is so many bold prints and patterns and colors. And if you meet me in person, I have a lot of opinions. It's like, I am not hesitant to share those with you. And I'm not necessarily a quiet person. I can be. I know how to be reserved. But in a lot of ways, carrying that Persona was me putting on a mask. I was trying to show up as a palatable version of myself rather than who I really am. And so I think if your brand is starting to not match that, you need an edit. Like in the same way that you like slowly replace pieces in your closet because they don't fit anymore, or the style isn't right, or it doesn't make sense for your lifestyle, you have to do the same thing in your business, like the actual same thing. And most people do this in like a fell swoop. Like my brand looks this way and then they'll make this like edit. And now, now my brand looks this way. I think it's more typical or authentic in a way that's less shocking when you're just like slowly making changes to the point that no one is surprised. People should not be surprised by a new brand. If they're surprised by a new brand, then they don't know who you are. It should all feel very natural. That's all very focused on personal. Like a personal brand where you are the business and the business is you. But if you're running a company that is different and should be approached completely different from a branding perspective, in my opinion, I wouldn't make slow shifts over time. I would be very mindful about creating something that is classic and timeless. And you can make slow edits over time. Like you can have your opinions about a brand like Coca Cola, but look at how their brand has changed over the last a hundred years. It is very incremental, but also like not all that different. Like you, you would still know Coke today from Coke 100 years ago. So if you're building a company and you want to remove yourself from it, then it needs to be able to stand alone. But if you're trying to build a personal brand, it needs to be a reflection of you.

[Jo]

That's some good food for thought and how you're wanting to do it. And I think the long term goals, because if you're wanting to build a personal brand and everything revolves around you, it is very different. And then I like your edits, I like that version of it. And one of the things for me, I'm like, guys, you can be very timeless in the framework and then you can update brand photography. I mean, I'm a little partial to brand photography. It's what I love to do. But I think for Me, that's the edits that you can do as your hair color changes, as your closet changes. And I'm going to have to figure out how to play on that closet refresh on how we can tie that in. Because I love that analogy that you said. Your brand should evolve. Just like we get rid of pieces of clothing that no longer fit right, feel right, we do not feel as confident in it. For me, if you find yourself excusing, oh, here is my website. But if there is any but after it maybe time for an edit. If you are giving them a business card and you say anything other than here you go, I cannot wait to connect with you later. If there is any excuse that you feel I think that is something for me. If you are starting to feel like there is a disconnect and you are requiring any explanation beyond here is my contact information, this is how you get ahold of me, then I think it's time for an edit. I like that phrasing too.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah. And I would really be mindful about not spending all of your time and attention there. Like there's been as much as I have a very branded Persona all over the Internet. There are so many times I have gone rogue. There are so many times I've used different fonts or different colors or different whatever because I I wanted to. And nobody's like, that is not you, blah, blah, blah. Like nobody is micromanaging every post you put out into the world. So if you like something, do it. If you feel confident about it, do it. Like worry less about it all making sense and worry more about continuing to keep going. Like motion and action is more important than tweaking the things that people aren't going to pay attention to.

[Jo]

The done is better than perfect. Just get it done and keep moving. And I do love that where it's like, don't spend so much time on the stuff that really, for me, get it done and let that be the thing. And that can help you make decisions and create content and have people help you. So if you start bringing on a team, they have some guidelines and they know what to work within. But ultimately, if you're being yourself, that's going to be what really helps in the long run because you're getting to be authentically you. So if you decide to pop up one day and you're like, this is me in my full non branded, it doesn't matter, it's you. And if that fits your brand, then that's perfect. But it should fit your brand because your brand is You. So I think that's where for me, I'm like, guys, that's amazing. I think it's the holding on to what is it that I'm ultimately trying to do? What is the legacy that I'm trying to create? What does bring me joy and then what's working today? Because what worked five years ago doesn't work for me. Five years ago, I would have never been on a podcast talking on video because it scared the living bejesus out of me. Now I'm like, hey, let's do this. I can talk to somebody on video all day long. Still trying to get myself to believe that I'm comfortable on camera by myself. We're still, after all of this time, creating content, still working through that mindset journey. But I think it's one step at a time. I would love to hear one last piece of advice. If you've got someone who's been listening and they're like, okay, all that sounds fantastic, but where do I really start? Or how do I do this piece? What's one piece of advice you've got?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah, so I think one of the, like, most logical places to start that's like super tactile, like something that you can just run with and do immediately is a time audit. So if you haven't documented how you're spending your time, I would do so for a week. And not just basic things throughout the day. Like, I checked my email and I did this or did that. I want you thinking about how you're spending all of your time. So, like, you took the kids to school or you made a meal or you went on a walk, like, record all of it and then break that up into categories after the fact. Like, this was work external, like you were helping clients or like selling or something. This was internal meaning, like it helped the operations of the business. This was personal, this was health related. This was whatever. You can have as many categories as you want. This is very dependent on you personally. And I want you to really think about, is that how you want to keep spending your time? Like, if you were to just redo next week and use the same percentages of all the time you spent on all these different categories, Is that how you want your life to go? And if you had to do that every week for the next year, would you still be happy? And if you answer no, then, like, we need to pay attention to that because maybe you're spending twice as long on this one thing that you'd rather get rid of it to do this other Thing like that's going to help you get a clearer picture of where you want to go than if you just keep talking about it. Talking about it is not getting you anywhere. Looking at how you're actually doing it and then making changes, that's what's going to make a difference in your life.

[Jo]

Well, and I think what I have found from doing time audits is that my perception where I thought I was spending time wasn't always truly where I was spending time. And it was an eye opener like, oh, wow, I have spent so much time doing XYZ and I didn't realize so then being more intentional. And that kind of creates what we talked about earlier, that life by design. So if you're not spending time doing the things in the way that you would like to, then start making the changes now. Because if not, you're going to wake up a year from now still doing the exact same thing, talking about it.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Instead talking about it.

[Jo]

Well, Abigail, thank you so much. If anyone's been listening and they want to learn more about you, the Boss project, where can they find you?

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Yeah, you are welcome to head to bossproject.com and check out our various courses. You can also link over to our membership called the Co op that'[e-mail] to hear more about the strategies and design pieces that I am helping small business owners with. But if you want to follow me as a person, I definitely recommend following me at. Abigail says on Instagram it's linked in Boss projects bio so it's really easy to find. And then I just started posting consistently on LinkedIn and I would love some more followers over there. So if you can find me, Abigail Pumphrey over there would love for you to follow along. And if you love podcasts, which I'm guessing you do based on listening to today's show, I definitely recommend that you go subscribe and listen to the Strategy Hour podcast. We're going to approach episode 1000 this year which is. That's absolutely wild. So I promise regardless of what you want to learn about, there is something on there for you. Do not feel like you need to go in order. Pick and choose your own adventure. Have fun. I would love feedback on it and if you have topic ideas you'd like me to cover in the future, definitely reach out.

[Jo]

Oh, thank you so much. I cannot thank you enough for your time. I hope you have been listening and if please go check out Abigail be in the show notes for all the links and all the places that you can you will not regret it. Again. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

[Abigail Pumphrey]

Absolutely. Hey, a few quick favors before you leave. I'd love if you'd share today's episode, send it to a friend who needs to hear it and post on social media. You can show us where you're listening from, your favorite takeaway or why someone else should listen. Be sure to tag me Abigail says and bossproject so we can share it. Okay. Second favor to get podcast updates and all the behind the scenes news from Boss Project. I'd love if you'd join my VIP list. Just head to bossproject.com signup to make sure I have all your contact details. Really love this show. It would mean so much to me if you'd leave a rating and review. It not only helps more listeners find the show but allows us to bring on quality sponsors so we can keep bringing you this valuable content for free. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time.