Podcast Summary: "Is an Anti-Fascist Approach to Artificial Intelligence Possible?"

Podcast: The Tech Policy Press Podcast
Host: Justin Hendricks
Guest: Dr. Dan McQuillan, Senior Lecturer in Creative and Social Computing at Goldsmiths, University of London
Date: March 23, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Justin Hendricks interviews Dr. Dan McQuillan, author of Resisting AI: An Antifascist Approach to Artificial Intelligence. The conversation delves deeply into the intersection of artificial intelligence, power, and politics, exploring why Dr. McQuillan believes that AI, as currently developed and deployed, inherently amplifies inequality and authoritarianism—even fascism. They discuss the potential and limits of opposition, alternative approaches to computing and knowledge, and the urgent need for collective agency to challenge dominant techno-political agendas.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Background of Dr. Dan McQuillan's Viewpoint

[02:00-04:25]

• McQuillan's journey from experimental physics to grassroots and digital human rights work influenced his critical perspective on technology's political impact.
  • "I saw the rise of Big Data... and I just have that kind of foot in both camps, really. I was already political... so just put two and two together, really." (B, 04:15)

2. The Book’s Provocative Stance: Resisting AI

[07:28-12:44]

• The opening page of the book states: “This book is about how and why we should resist the introduction of artificial Intelligence.”
• Justin highlights how this confrontational start may turn away those who view AI as a fundamentally beneficial tool.
• McQuillan explains the need to challenge the “AI apparatus” and criticizes centrist attempts to find a middle ground as insufficient.
  • "It's very clear that centrism as a sort of political approach is completely inappropriate to our times because it... offered absolutely no resistance [to far right forces]." (B, 09:00)
• Argues that the problem is AI’s opacity, unreliability, and its similarity to bureaucratic mechanisms that enact structural violence.

3. Solutionism and the Elixir of AI

[12:44-18:50]

• Discussion about policymakers’ temptation to see AI as a quick fix for complex problems.
  • Justin: "The aroma of that elixir would be quite enticing." (A, 13:36)
• McQuillan likens the state's and industry's reliance on AI to drinking a potent solution—they're addicted and all will suffer the hangover.
  • "People clearly drinking heavily of that elixir. And we're all gonna experience the hangover." (B, 13:44)
• AI is not an outside force but a product of existing neoliberal economic and political systems and their limitations.
  • "AI doesn't come from somewhere else. It's entirely a product of all of the forces that in fact is a product very directly a product of the same forces that caused the financial crash in the first place..." (B, 14:54)
• Critique of AI as speculative technology, perpetually promising that more AI will solve problems caused by AI itself.

4. AI’s Relationship to Fascism

[18:50-23:15]

• McQuillan’s analysis sees AI as conducive to fascistic tendencies, especially given its administrative and ordering powers.
• The book anticipated the fusion of Silicon Valley and far-right politics.
• Real-world developments in recent years have only strengthened his initial arguments.
  • "I did write about infrastructure and climate change a bit in the book, particularly in respect to this idea of eco-fascism... what generative AI... demands... much more even than, let's say, vanilla deep learning..." (B, 23:36)
• Critique of so-called liberal responses to the far right as both ineffective and complicit.

5. The Rise of “Accelerationism” and Nihilism in AI Culture

[23:15-29:20]

• Discusses the cultural and philosophical underpinnings of figures like Elon Musk and the broader AI industry: a mix of destructivist, nihilist, and accelerationist thinking, inspired by thinkers like Ernst Jünger.
  • "Musk and LLMs seem to me to share a lot of DNA in broader terms... This is an accelerationist perspective. It's a burn everything to achieve this transformation. That is a very fascist idea." (B, 25:40)
• AI is cast not just as a technological but as a deeply irrational, even nihilistic, force.

6. Alternative Epistemologies—Post Machine Learning and New Materialisms

[29:20-36:56]

• McQuillan devotes the latter part of his book to reconstructive proposals: moving beyond AI, drawing from feminist science, new materialism, and “post-normal” science.
• Critiques AI’s foundation in reductive positivism, which abstracts and objectifies, and introduces the idea that relations—not objects—should underpin our technological and scientific worldviews.
  • “You can actually flip that the other way around and say, actually... the relations are the foundational thing.” (B, 32:45)
• Emphasis on broadening scientific “peer communities” to include stakeholders and lived experience, not just experts.

7. What Is Anti-Fascist AI?

[36:56-43:44]

• McQuillan’s anti-fascist approach involves collectivities—such as people’s councils, trade unions, and social movements—with technopolitical awareness, counterbalancing AI’s tendency toward centralization and technocracy.
  • “There's really no such thing as a separate politics and a separate technology... we're talking about a terrain of technopolitical struggle..." (B, 41:24)
• Draws from historic examples (Lucas Plan, 1970s social critique) and the concept of “convivial technology” (Ivan Illich).

8. Decomputing: From AI Degrowth to Direct Action

[43:44-52:02]

• Decomputing is McQuillan’s proposal for resisting the unchecked expansion of AI:
  • Addressing both environmental (energy, resource consumption) and social (precarity, disempowerment) harms.
  • Advocates for a halt to new hyperscale data centers and reclaiming land for public good.
  • Urges not just opposition in the NIMBY sense but in a collective, technopolitical sense.
  • Critiques the myth of AI as a “solution” and urges people in all fields to resist the automatic adoption of AI tools.
  • “When somebody comes along... and says, I know I've got a great idea that we can support your work because we've got this great AI tool that is a moment to say, okay, we've already got a problem here..." (B, 50:10)
• Calls for a revival of solidarity and mutual aid.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This book is about how and why we should resist the introduction of artificial Intelligence, period.” — (A quoting book, 07:28)
• “Centrism as a sort of political approach is completely inappropriate to our times because it... incubates the very far right forces that it complains about and has offered absolutely no resistance to them.” — Dan McQuillan, [09:00]
• “AI doesn't come from somewhere else. It's entirely a product of all of the forces that in fact... caused the financial crash in the first place...” — Dan McQuillan, [14:54]
• “People clearly drinking heavily of that elixir. And we're all gonna experience the hangover.” — Dan McQuillan, [13:44]
• “Musk and LLMs seem to me to share a lot of DNA... This is an accelerationist perspective. It's a burn everything to achieve this transformation. That is a very fascist idea.” — Dan McQuillan, [25:40]
• “We’re talking about a terrain of technopolitical struggle... we need collectivities with a technopolitical perspective.” — Dan McQuillan, [41:24]
• “Decomputing is trying to... fuse these questions at the same time, the environmental and the social ones... Stop the data centers where they stand right now. No more.” — Dan McQuillan, [46:20]
• “When somebody comes along… and says, I know I've got a great idea that we can support your work because we've got this great AI tool, that is a moment to say, okay, we've already got a problem here.” — Dan McQuillan, [50:10]

Key Timestamps

• [02:00] McQuillan’s personal and professional background
• [05:06] Discussion on the surprise of ChatGPT’s advent and its societal impact
• [07:28] The book’s core argument for resisting AI
• [13:44] The seduction and pitfalls of AI solutionism for policymakers
• [18:50] On AI’s unique relationship to fascism and intensification of injustice
• [23:36] Accelerationism, nihilism, and Silicon Valley culture
• [29:56] Post machine learning and alternative epistemologies
• [36:56] Anti-fascist AI and technopolitical collectivities
• [44:13] Decomputing and resistance to AI infrastructure
• [50:10] Practical daily resistance strategies

Conclusion

This episode offers a sweeping, provocative critique of artificial intelligence as a tool of intensifying power, inequality, and even fascism. Dr. Dan McQuillan challenges technologists, policymakers, and the public to refuse the myth of AI solutionism and instead pursue collective, anti-fascist, and ecological alternatives to computation. Central to his argument is the need for agency, solidarity, and new forms of democratic, communal techno-politics.

For more information, visit Tech Policy Press.