Podcast Summary: "New Book Challenges Assumptions on Digital Governance in China"

The Tech Policy Press Podcast
Host: Justin Hendricks
Guests: Prof. Dani Stockmann (Hertie School, Berlin) & Assoc. Prof. Ting Luo (University of Birmingham)
Date: January 18, 2026

Overview

This episode centers on the new book Governing Digital China by Dani Stockmann and Ting Luo, which seeks to challenge prevailing Western assumptions about China's digital governance. Rather than a simplistic, top-down model of control, the authors present a nuanced framework—“popular corporatism”—that describes how the Chinese state, major tech corporations, and ordinary citizens shape governance in a dynamic interplay rather than a one-sided dictatorship. The conversation critically examines stereotypes, empirical obstacles, and implications for democracy and digital policy beyond China.

Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. Origins of the Book & Collaboration

• [01:12–03:08] Dani and Ting discuss how their insider/outsider perspectives (growing up/studying in China and Germany/US, respectively) enriched their joint research.
  • Dani: “We are a really great match because I have the outside perspective… Ting grew up in China and then went abroad…” (01:57)
  • Both emphasize their mutual exposure to education outside their home countries as shaping a broader analytical lens.

2. Challenges of Researching Contemporary China

• [03:08–06:35] Conducting fieldwork and empirical research in China has become increasingly fraught:
  • Access to data has tightened, especially post-COVID, making surveys on political or sensitive topics nearly impossible.
  • The authors reflect on shifting boundaries of what is “sensitive” over time, and on the emotional/political climate surrounding China studies:
    Ting: “…What was not sensitive before, become sensitive… a lot of…emotional part…that Danny mentioned is something that we also observe…” (05:35)

3. Challenging the "Command and Control" Myth

• [06:35–09:42]
  • Western Stereotypes: The prevailing Western narrative views China’s digital governance as highly centralized, authoritarian, and monolithic (the “Big Brother” perspective).
  • Empirical Reality: Actual digital governance is more complex and cannot be explained solely by top-down control.
    • Dani: “The more you look into what is actually happening in practice…this…cannot work because it doesn’t help the Chinese government to both promote the digital economy and to remain politically stable.” (08:37)
    • Ting: “The government…does not know how to run technology…that’s also part of the reason why we think that the story in China is much more complex…” (09:11)

4. Popular Corporatism: A New Model

• [09:42–11:10]
  • The authors introduce "popular corporatism," describing the relationship as more of a feedback loop:
    • Government is still “in the driver’s seat,” but companies and citizens are more than passive passengers—they contribute feedback and exert influence.
    • Companies have bargaining power (expertise, data, reach), and citizens affect services and policy through digital engagement.
    • Ting: “You can see it as…a running car, that the Chinese government is sitting in the driver’s seat…[but] they also provide feedback…” (09:48)

5. Agency of Citizens in Digital Governance

• [11:10–15:29]
  • Despite state and platform power, data reveals that Chinese users also express preference for less censorship and protect their privacy.
    • Dani: “There’s a bit of a liberal bias in China where really Chinese Internet users…actually prefers less censorship…cares about privacy.” (12:14)
  • Users show “bottom line” behaviors: if privacy or freedom is withdrawn, users seek alternatives—even within constraints.
  • Platforms anticipate and react to user movement in subtle, sometimes selective ways.

6. Tech Companies as Influencers and Partners

• [15:29–22:48]
  • The binary image of “tech as agent of the state” is incomplete.
    • Tech companies in China (like Alibaba, Tencent) exert influence, provide essential infrastructure (like digital payment, social credit scoring), and even provide PR/public opinion monitoring for the state.
    • Dani: “The core of the partnership is really the shift of governments…becoming clients to big tech firms.” (17:04)
    • Ting: Draws parallels to Western democratic campaigns, noting that Chinese firms also carry out state “PR work” similar to campaign targeting (19:08).
  • With the advent of AI, this partnership deepens: state funds handpick “winners” for investment, mirroring the earlier internet boom.

7. Balance Between Control and Liberalization

• [22:48–25:19]
  • The Chinese government continually balances technological liberalization (for economic innovation) against the need for political control.
    • Dani: “This balancing between liberalization and control…is also a constant discussion inside the leadership.” (23:11)
  • This oscillation’s amplitude appears lower under Xi Jinping, but the tension remains.

8. Contemporary Developments, Uncertainty, and Global Trends

• [25:19–31:41]
  • The tightening of control, economic malaise, and questions of innovation underpin current debates about China’s future trajectory.
    • Analysts hesitate to predict, emphasizing that both further opening and tightening are possible responses.
  • Cases like Meta’s acquisition of Menace AI and TikTok’s ongoing trust issues highlight China’s and global firms’ maneuvering amid these pressures.
    • Ting: Suggests recent high-profile AI deals trigger Chinese government insecurity, which may prompt additional controls (28:16).
    • Dani: Proposes a practical criterion—does the company still have a headquarters in China?—for judging the “Chineseness” of tech entities (30:42).

9. China's “Digital Governance Model” as Export

• [31:55–35:36]
  • China’s approach is selectively emulated abroad, but its full model is difficult to export due to its high resource demand and requirement for state capacity.
    • Some Southeast Asian nations (Vietnam, Singapore) imitate cooptive features, but empirical implementation is limited.
    • Dani: “This Chinese model is actually only replicable under one condition… it’s very expensive… you also have to have a certain degree of…state development approach.” (34:06)

10. Rethinking Stereotypes: Big Brother, Brave New World

• [35:36–39:50]
  • Both metaphors (Big Brother, Brave New World) are insufficient and somewhat misleading.
  • The authors urge readers and policymakers to go beyond these frames and focus on evidence, not fear-based or ideological narratives.
    • Dani: “When I read the news… I really try to differentiate between expressions of emotions… versus…what is actually happening.” (36:44)
    • Ting: “We have to go beyond this dichotomy between…democracy and…authoritarianism…we want to show you the evidence first…Let the reader…have their own values based on the evidence…” (38:26)

11. Comparing Governance Models: Lessons for the West

• [39:50–47:07]
  • While noting authoritarian aspects, the authors highlight the clarity of China’s vision for digital development, in contrast to a sometimes fragmented or unclear European approach.
    • Dani: “I still feel that this sort of European answer …lacks a vision…China or the Chinese Communist Party is able to provide a very clear vision…” (41:16)
    • European digital legislation (DSA, DMA, GDPR, AI Act) remains fragmented; the decentralized “Euro sky” approach offers a counterpoint but brings its own challenges.
    • Ting: For the UK and West, learning from China’s example might mean clarifying their strategic vision and position in the global digital landscape, not simply copying authoritarian policies (45:36).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On structural complexity:
  "The story in China is much more complex… there must be some sort of collaboration or partnership between the Chinese government and the company."
  — Ting Luo (09:11)

• On citizens' agency:
  "Chinese Internet users… actually prefer less censorship… there’s definitely the preference for more freedom of expression… and [they] really care about privacy."
  — Dani Stockmann (12:14)

• On digital partnerships:
  "The core of the partnership is really the shift of governments…becoming clients to big tech firms."
  — Dani Stockmann (17:04)

• On empirical nuance:
  "If you really want to understand China, you have to look beyond just the top down aspects and…start looking for empirical evidence."
  — Dani Stockmann (36:44)

• On lessons for Europe and the UK:
  "If there’s anything we can learn from China, it’s basically to find your position in the world…especially in digital development."
  — Ting Luo (46:21)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment Description | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Background & Collaboration | 01:12–03:08 | | Research Obstacles in China | 03:08–06:35 | | Command & Control: Challenging the Stereotype | 06:35–09:42 | | Popular Corporatism Explained | 09:42–11:10 | | Citizen Agency in Digital Governance | 11:10–15:29 | | Corporate Influence & AI Partnerships | 15:29–22:48 | | State’s Balancing Act: Control vs Liberalization | 22:48–25:19 | | Uncertain Trajectories: Openness, Security, AI | 25:19–31:41 | | China’s Digital Model Export & Global Influence | 31:55–35:36 | | Beyond Big Brother/Brave New World | 35:36–39:50 | | Europe’s Digital Governance Vision, Policy Lessons | 39:50–47:07 |

Final Thoughts

• The episode dismantles simplistic metaphors about China’s digital governance, offering empirical nuance grounded in fieldwork and cross-cultural research.
• Listeners are encouraged to scrutinize evidence, acknowledge complexity, and reconsider the binaries and emotional narratives that often dominate Western discourse on Chinese tech policy.
• Governing Digital China ultimately provides a lens to rethink not only China, but also how democracies approach digital regulation and innovation in a polarized world.