4: Under the Spotlight

Summary

Episode 4: Under the Spotlight – A Detailed Summary

Release Date: April 18, 2022

Introduction

In Episode 4 of The Superhero Complex, host David Weinberg delves deeper into the enigmatic world of Phoenix Jones, Seattle's most prominent real-life superhero. This episode, titled "Under the Spotlight," explores Phoenix's rise to national attention, the internal conflicts within the real-life superhero community, and the mounting tensions between vigilantes and law enforcement.

Phoenix Jones: From Vigilante to Celebrity

The episode begins with a recount of Peter Tangen, a Hollywood photographer known for his high-profile celebrity shoots, who becomes fascinated by real-life superheroes after reading about them in Rolling Stone magazine. Tangen's encounter with Phoenix Jones marks a pivotal moment in Phoenix's journey.

At [04:11], Phoenix Jones recounts his initial skepticism of Tangen's intentions:

Phoenix Jones: "He was like, 'What you're doing is kind of dangerous and actually maybe detrimental to the movement. You might want to calm yourself down, you know.'"

Despite a rocky first interaction, Tangen later praises Phoenix, urging him to come to California to be featured in a photo shoot. This collaboration results in Phoenix's iconic image—a rain-soaked, costumed crusader resembling Batman—with a distinctive glowing gold chevron. The release of these photos significantly boosts Phoenix's media presence, transforming him from a local vigilante into a national sensation.

Media Frenzy and Phoenix's Relationship with Publicity

Phoenix's newfound fame brings both advantages and challenges. While media coverage provides a layer of protection—particularly important for Phoenix as a black man involved in street-level crime fighting—it also attracts scrutiny and criticism from various quarters, including his former superhero allies.

Notable moments include:

• Phoenix's Shift Towards Publicity ([06:39]): Encouraged by Tangen, Phoenix begins actively engaging with the media, recognizing the strategic benefits of publicity in his mission to fight crime.

• Jon Ronson's Involvement ([08:54]): Journalist and broadcaster Jon Ronson collaborates with Phoenix on a piece for GQ aimed at uncovering a sex trafficking ring. However, the mission derails when no evidence of trafficking is found, leading Phoenix to take down 30 armed crack dealers solo. This incident underscores the volatile nature of vigilante justice and the blurred lines between heroism and recklessness.

• Phoenix's Justification of Media Manipulation ([16:35]): During an interview, Phoenix admits to embellishing stories for media appeal:

  Phoenix Jones: "Yeah, 100%. ... I gave you a superhero because that's what you think what I was doing was."

This admission raises questions about the authenticity of Phoenix's actions and his reliance on media portrayal to sustain his vigilante activities.

Internal Conflicts Within the Superhero Community

As Phoenix gains prominence, ideological rifts emerge within the Rain City superhero movement. Members like Midnight Jack and Crystal Marks represent divergent philosophies on what constitutes meaningful superhero work.

• Midnight Jack's Perspective ([15:46]): Emphasizing action-oriented tactics, Midnight Jack criticizes groups like the Washington Initiative for their focus on humanitarian efforts, labeling them as attention-seekers.

  Midnight Jack: "They're just not bright. ... You don't carry equipment that you don't know how to use."

• Crystal Marks' Approach ([25:12]): Contrasting with Phoenix, Crystal advocates for compassionate actions such as homeless outreach, influenced by her own experiences with homelessness.

  Crystal Marks: "I wanted to see people reached out to in a compassionate way."

These internal disputes highlight the broader debate within the real-life superhero community: Should the focus be on direct crime intervention, or should it shift towards humanitarian aid and community support?

The Mounting Tension with Law Enforcement

Seattle's professional law enforcement, led by Chief Carmen Best, increasingly views the Rain City superheroes with concern and skepticism. The police department worries about the safety and legality of untrained vigilantes intervening in criminal activities.

• Chief Carmen Best's Concerns ([40:55]): She expresses unease over the superheroes' lack of formal training and the potential for unnecessary violence.

  Carmen Best: "We really discourage, as a profession, people doing what we would view as vigilantism."

• Phoenix's Friction with Police ([45:34]–[50:14]): Phoenix criticizes the Seattle Police Department (SPD) for perceived ineffectiveness and excessive force, while SPD personnel label him as a "deeply misguided individual."

  Phoenix Jones: "The district attorney of Seattle is a complete joke. He is trash."

This antagonistic relationship culminates in a significant altercation on October 9, 2011, where Phoenix is arrested by the SPD after a chaotic confrontation involving pepper spray and physical violence. The incident underscores the dangers of vigilante justice and the legal ramifications faced by individuals like Phoenix.

The Aftermath and Legal Consequences

Phoenix's arrest marks a turning point, both personally and for the superhero movement in Seattle. The episode discusses the legal challenges vigilantes face, especially in the context of broader systemic issues like police misconduct and racial bias highlighted by the Department of Justice's report on the SPD.

• Legal Struggles ([57:07]–[57:42]): Phoenix faces assault charges, partly due to his aggressive tactics and exacerbated tensions with law enforcement.

  Phoenix Jones: "I am pretty pissed off right now."

Conclusion: The Complex Identity of a Superhero

Episode 4 of The Superhero Complex paints a nuanced portrait of Phoenix Jones—a man driven by the desire to make his community safer, yet entangled in the pitfalls of seeking fame and confronting systemic challenges. The episode invites listeners to ponder the true nature of heroism and the fine line between altruism and vigilantism.

Key Takeaways:

• Media as a Double-Edged Sword: While publicity can offer protection and amplify a vigilante's message, it can also lead to manipulation and loss of authenticity.

• Ideological Diversity: The real-life superhero community encompasses a spectrum of beliefs about the best ways to serve and protect, leading to internal conflicts.

• Vigilantism vs. Professional Policing: Untrained individuals taking the law into their own hands can exacerbate tensions with law enforcement and pose significant risks to all parties involved.

• Personal Motivations and Legal Repercussions: Personalized missions to fight crime are fraught with legal challenges, especially when they intersect with issues of race and police accountability.

The Superhero Complex continues to explore these themes, offering listeners an in-depth look into the lives of those who strive to be heroes outside the pages of comic books.

Transcript

[David Weinberg]

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[David Weinberg]

No.

[Carmen Best]

May I see a show of hands?

[Phoenix Jones]

How many people in this room have.

[David Weinberg]

Ever dreamt of wearing spandex? One day around 2010, a guy named Peter Tangen was flipping through Rolling Stone magazine when an article caught his eye.

[Phoenix Jones]

It was called the Legend of Master Legend. I found out from this article that.

[David Weinberg]

There were more than 100 people like.

[Phoenix Jones]

Minded costumed activists that were in the country.

[Crystal Marks]

You guys, there's really superheroes.

[Carmen Best]

There's really superheroes.

[Crystal Marks]

How exciting is this?

[David Weinberg]

Peter Tangen isn't your average comic book fan. He's a photographer and you've probably seen his work. One of his main gigs is taking promo shots of Hollywood superheroes. He shot Christian Bale for the Batman Begins poster, Chris Hemsworth as Thor, and also Will Ferrell as Elf. He likes to mix it up, but sometimes living in the world of celebrities can feel a little fake. And at a certain point in his career, Peter longed to shoot something more real. And this article about real life superheroes gave him an idea. In a TED talk he did in 2015. He remembers the moment and it hits.

[Carmen Best]

Me right then and there.

[Phoenix Jones]

I say, I gotta figure out a way to make Hollywood quality movie posters out of these guys.

[David Weinberg]

So Peter started reaching out to the real life superheroes. He got to know their work and shot them in glossy big budget photos where they posed with steely expressions against a city backdrop. Inevitably, he decided to reach out to Phoenix Jones, the greatest superhero of them all. Not long after, Phoenix got a Facebook message from Peter and the two of them talked on the phone. But it didn't go well. Peter had met a lot of real life superheroes by this point and he was skeptical of Phoenix's crime fighting approach.

[Phoenix Jones]

And he's like, what you're doing is kind of dangerous and actually maybe empathetical to the movement. You might want to like calm yourself down, you know. Plus, I highly doubt you're actually stopping as many crimes as you think. He's like, I've seen maybe 10 crimes that have been stopped by real life superheroes maybe. And I was like, oh, okay, well, we're not friends. I don't like you. I'm not gonna talk to you again. And go fuck yourself.

[David Weinberg]

It's a wonder why none of Phoenix's old superhero buddies are friends with him anymore. Anyway, after this initial call, five months went by. And then Peter called Phoenix again. And according to Phoenix, this time he was full of praise.

[Phoenix Jones]

He called me, he says, look, you need to come to California. I need to take photos and videos and shoot you.

[David Weinberg]

Allegedly, Peter told Phoenix that he should sit down with the lesser real life superhero community and tell them it was time to hang up their costumes.

[Phoenix Jones]

You're trying to like, bring them a place they should not go. You can go there if you want to, but they shouldn't. And you need to make that really clear because they'll all get killed. And then he bought me a plane ticket. I left two days later and I flew down to California to meet Peter.

[David Weinberg]

The thing about Peter Tangen is that he's a big Hollywood guy and he lives in a big Hollywood house in the hills.

[Phoenix Jones]

He lives in a giant glass house. And I have a secret identity. So I wore my mask every single day, all day. It was terrible. It's so ridiculous. He lives in Van Nuys, California. This glass house on the side of a freaking cliff looks like the Iron man house. Literally every wall is a fucking window. I'm like, why would you invite a superhero with a secret identity to a place where every wall is a fucking window? It was trash. I slept in my mask. It was just horrible.

[David Weinberg]

As horrible as it was, it actually turned out to be a major turning point in Phoenix Jones life. Up until then, he and his team had attracted some media coverage, but according to Phoenix, he hadn't actively sought it out.

[Phoenix Jones]

And every time media would call me, I'd just be like, no, I don't want to talk to you. And he was like, no one knows what you're doing, who you are, what you stand for. He's like, and everyone wants to talk to you. So just go out, tell him what you mean and what you plan on doing. No one's going to get mad at you for telling what you're doing. He's like, you're doing the dangerous work anyway. You might as well protect yourself.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix agreed to the photo shoot. In the photos, he stands in a rain soaked street, fully costumed, and glares down at the camera. He'd look a lot like Batman if it weren't for the gold chevron across his chest, which glows with an unearthly Yellow light. When the pictures were released, Peter's phone started ringing off the hook. Phoenix wasn't just a local news curiosity anymore. People around the country wanted to know about who this mysterious crime fighter was. Peter fielded so many calls for Phoenix that he ended up becoming his semi official spokesperson. Peter is actually how I got in touch with Phoenix in the first place. And Phoenix was going to need his PR rep. The photo shoot catapulted him to a new level of fame. Phoenix's knack for grabbing people's attention is one of his greatest assets. But it's also maybe his greatest weakness. From the teams at Novel and iHeartRadio, this is the Superhero Complex. Episode 4 Under the Spotlight after the Peter Tangen photo shoot, journalists wanted to fly to Seattle and meet the famous Phoenix Jones. One of those journalists was the writer and broadcaster Jon Ronson. Jon and Phoenix hooked up for a piece that John was writing for gq. John had flown over from England and according to Phoenix, the idea had been to try and uncover a sex trafficking ring. But when they finally tracked down some sex workers, things didn't go as planned.

[Phoenix Jones]

We couldn't find anything, right, because none of them said they were trafficked, which was a giant bust. So instead I went on patrol with Jon Ronson and took down 30 armed crack dealers, you know, by myself.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix and some of the other members of the Rain City crew had taken John on a patrol of the city instead.

[Carmen Best]

Nothing was happening. He couldn't find any crimes to thwart, and so he pulled out the big guns.

[David Weinberg]

That's John. He told me that they headed to the Belltown neighborhood.

[Carmen Best]

It was a sketchy part of town. It's like three in the morning. There was about five or six different groups of crack dealers on different street corners and various buyers going between them.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix described a fairly intimidating scene.

[Phoenix Jones]

Seattle's an open carry state. Dudes walk around with their guns out. They stand on the corner, right? And when people come out of the club, they strong arm them for money to get their car out of parking lots. Yeah, 30 dudes with open carried weapons in a parking lot.

[David Weinberg]

This was clearly a dangerous situation. But John wasn't sure that the superhero's presence made things safer.

[Carmen Best]

The crack dealers all unified in saying, what the fuck do you think you're doing here in your superhero outfits? And one of them said, this may be fun and games for you, but this isn't fun and games for us. This is how we feed our families. And then one of them said, if you don't get off our block, we're going to show you what the burner does. And they had a point, like, what the fuck were we doing trying to break the map? Like, whose business was it of ours? I mean, I'm saying ours. What I really mean is Phoenixes.

[David Weinberg]

The way Phoenix tells it, this was a heroic standoff.

[Phoenix Jones]

I look at Ghost and I said, ghost, man, there's a good chance we're going to die here, bro. I used to say, are you good? And Ghost is like, yep. And I looked at Jack, and Jack's like, you're stupid, Jones. This is like a movie, you know? I looked at El Caballero and Cabbie's like, oh, I already called the cops, man. He's like, I hope they don't shoot us before the cops get here. I already called the cops.

[David Weinberg]

But John told me the danger really did seem genuine.

[Carmen Best]

They came up to us and they said, you are stupid motherfuckers. Do you know that? Do you know that? You are stupid motherfuckers. We should shoot you. And I've got to say, at this point, I was terrified. They'd showed us the shape of a gun and sweatpants. They were clearly coming up with a justification to commit an act of violence against Phoenix. And they said, we should shoot you, but if you refuse to leave, I guess we're going to have to go home. And they did. They all went home. And so Phoenix won.

[David Weinberg]

When Phoenix told me this story, he didn't paint Jon in a very favorable light.

[Phoenix Jones]

Jon Ronson hailed a cab and then got in the cab and told the cab to wait and was hiding in the cab. And then he wanted to come back on patrol with us. And we're like, no, you hitting the cab, bro.

[Crystal Marks]

He's like, you're crazy.

[Phoenix Jones]

Like, you can't come back out with us. He's hiding in the cab with a cardigan.

[David Weinberg]

When I asked John about it, he told me he wasn't in the taxi, but he did try to hail one down.

[Carmen Best]

They all had bulletproof vests as superheroes, and I had nothing. I had a T shirt and a cardigan, so I was close to the cab so I could, like, escape if I had to, but also close to Phoenix so I could hear what they were saying so I could write it all down. But if Phoenix says that he didn't let me patrol with him the next day because I'd hailed a cab, that's not true. Phoenix was thrilled that I was there. And in fact, when I got back to the hotel at like, six in the morning or whatever the first thing Phoenix did was like phone me to talk excitedly about what had just happened. And he was like hyperventilating down the phone. That's not someone who was so annoyed with a journalist that they didn't want them to patrol with them the next day. And the only reason why there was no patrol the next day was cause Phoenix was doing a personal appearance at a comic book convention in town. And I don't think he did any patrolling that night. So the cab was true. The rest of it was not true.

[David Weinberg]

Their relationship was not exactly smooth sailing. But John doesn't hold a grudge on a personal level.

[Carmen Best]

I liked Phoenix very much. He was my favorite of all the superheroes that I met. He was charming, charismatic, fun, odd in a kind of engaging way, I'd say. The most negative thing I would say about Phoenix is that he had an odd relationship with crime fighting. It was clear that he was kind of addicted to it. It felt like there was an addiction there, like he couldn't find any crime to thwart. He was getting more and more frustrated. It's like he needs a cigarette and he can't find one.

[David Weinberg]

But during his time with Phoenix, John got a sense that crime fighting was. Wasn't the only thing he cared about.

[Carmen Best]

I think on our first night, we heard a woman screaming. And Phoenix was like, yahtzee. And went running towards the side because finally he had someone in distress he could save. And then as he was running towards the sound of the woman screaming, this car pulled up and these guys went down the window and went, it's the guy from YouTube. Can we get a picture with you? And Fe was like, sure. So he stopped and took a picture with these guys. And by the time they were all satisfied, the screaming woman was nowhere to be seen or heard.

[David Weinberg]

According to Phoenix, his relationship with fame is practical. It's what keeps him from getting arrested or worse. And that protection is all the more important if, like Phoenix, you're trying to do superhero work as a person of color.

[Phoenix Jones]

I'm a black guy in body armor running down the street punching white people. I need some media coverage.

[David Weinberg]

So what does that look like to you? Like, what's your strategy? Like, what do you hope to get out of being covered in the media?

[Phoenix Jones]

Like that kind of stuff, not being arrested. I think what people don't know is that especially currently, right, there are two different Americas. Being a six foot tall black dude in body armor running up to people who have been previously assaulted in the streets is not a solid look. People don't approach it the way that you think that they would, but. Yeah, but when they see Phoenix Jones, they see the symbol, the one that I set up, the one they're aware of. They know what my mission statement is. They know why I'm there. And it puts them as much at ease as a costume vigilante can. You know, I guess I shouldn't use that word. As a costume crime prevention specialist, that's what my attorneys told me to use.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix always has an answer for everything. He always manages to come up with a reasonable explanation for why he is right and everyone else is wrong. When I spoke to Phoenix's former team members, they all brought up his relationship with publicity. Here's El Caballero. A lot of it.

[Midnight Jack]

I felt like Jones heart was for protecting people.

[David Weinberg]

But then there was also this part that I saw was actually his ultimate self at that time, which was publicity. Midnight Jack told me that the Rain City superheroes initially started out courting the media for strategic reasons. It was a way to get a lot of attention on crime trends, to.

[Midnight Jack]

Call attention to problem areas that the.

[David Weinberg]

Police were not enforcing. But as things blew up, that changed. Ben was so hooked on the attention on the media following and the celebrity status and things like that that it was a problem. So then he started having us fucking. Not necessarily fake footage, but kind of staged shit. When we talked about his relationship with the cameras, Phoenix never admitted to staging patrol videos, but it was an accusation I kept hearing. Cavi told me once that you guys were doing some media interview and you started making stuff up. And he was like, dude, that didn't happen. And you leaned over and you said, hey, man, the history's told by the victors, you know?

[Phoenix Jones]

Oh, no, I didn't. I leaned over and I said, history is written by the winners, right?

[David Weinberg]

So you were just making stuff up?

[Phoenix Jones]

Yeah, 100%.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix even clarified for me the story Cabbie had been talking about was when the Rain CD superheroes were on Good Morning America.

[Phoenix Jones]

They're like, what's your biggest crime you've ever stopped? And I was like, arson? Can you give me some details? I'm like, can't give her details.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix couldn't give any details because there was no arson.

[Phoenix Jones]

Like, we didn't have a lot of credentials at that moment. But we're on Good Morning America, and we're about to go on tv. And I was like, fuck it. Yeah, straight up. And I don't feel bad about it. I wouldn't take it back and I would do it again.

[David Weinberg]

If you admittedly just make Stuff up to the media. Like, how do I know what you're saying is true?

[Phoenix Jones]

I wasn't admittedly making. Hold on. If there's a way for me to tell a story that makes it sound better and doesn't change the core facts that are on a police report, I.

[David Weinberg]

Will probably do that to Phoenix. He's just giving the world what it wants.

[Phoenix Jones]

I don't want to do interviews. I don't want to talk to these people. I don't like you. I want to stop bad people for doing bad things. And I want to make people do it themselves and understand it. But the government and the world we live in would not let me. So I gave you what you wanted. You wanted a superhero because that's what you think what I was doing was. So I gave you a superhero. You check. But no point in any of this was this my, like, idea or goal?

[David Weinberg]

It's these types of statements from Phoenix that I have a hard time believing. But I wouldn't necessarily say that Phoenix is lying when he says them. I think he probably believes them to be true. And it's certainly true that as a black man trying to fight crime on the streets of America, the publicity provides him with a level of protection that any of his former team members who were white might not have needed. But I find his unwillingness to admit that he enjoyed being a celebrity as a kind of dishonesty. For what it's worth, I think Phoenix liked all the attention and not just because it made it easier for him to catch criminals. But one thing does ring true in what Phoenix is saying here. He spends his whole life attempting to live up to a particular ideal of a superhero. And that's a lot of pressure. And not everyone has the same idea of what a superhero is. When those interpretations clashed, things got messy. That's coming up.

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[David Weinberg]

While Phoenix Jones was making the most of his newfound celebrity, one of his many appearances caught the attention of Seattleite Crystal Marks. That's her real name, by the way, so she was kind of born with a brilliant superhero alias.

[Crystal Marks]

I've grown up in love with superheroes my entire life. My dad was a huge nerd Into d and d. He was in the navy, where they played d and D all the time. And he got a friend of his to actually get my name worked into a superman comic book. I thought that was the coolest thing. So when I heard that someone was dressing up like one and doing something that a superhero would do, it was irresistible.

[David Weinberg]

When crystal saw the news coverage of Phoenix Jones and his crew, she was immediately captivated. Late one night, she set out to see what Phoenix was really about.

[Crystal Marks]

I ended up kind of stalking his team, the rain city superhero movement, through the streets of Seattle, Watching them break, break up fights.

[David Weinberg]

Crystal didn't want the rain city superheroes to see her.

[Crystal Marks]

I threw my hair up in a ponytail, and I wore a hat and sunglasses at night in the middle of belltown in Seattle, it was not the wisest choice.

[David Weinberg]

She hid behind street corners and counted 30 seconds before creeping along behind the superheroes.

[Crystal Marks]

I realized, like, wow, anyone can do this. That's really cool. But I wasn't seeing the things happening that mattered to me. Homeless outreach.

[David Weinberg]

As a kid growing up in Aberdeen, Washington, Crystal had some rough patches in her childhood.

[Crystal Marks]

When I was 8 years old, my biological mom and I were kicked out of my grandmother's house, and we were homeless. We had nowhere to go. Living in our car, we lived under a bridge, living on my mom's friends couches. And we did that for a little over six months. And that stuck with me. I was homeless as a kid, and I wanted to see people reached out to in a compassionate way.

[David Weinberg]

For crystal, Phoenix's team didn't seem like the heroes she'd been looking for.

[Crystal Marks]

I was like, do we need to just be breaking up drunk fights? Can we be doing more?

[David Weinberg]

So she started looking for alternatives. It turned out Phoenix's crew weren't the only superheroes in town. Crystal ended up joining another group called the Washington initiative. They started out by patrolling around belltown. That's Phoenix's turf.

[Crystal Marks]

It was a little bit of a not so friendly competition, but we realized very quickly after the first couple of patrols where we were just seeing people stumbling to their cars, we weren't really making a difference. So our team, the Washington initiative, switched over to more homeless outreach.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix did not take kindly to his fellow crime fighters. Evocatus saw Phoenix's reaction firsthand.

[Phoenix Jones]

He would get in very animated, almost screeching, yelling matches about how other teams are just trying to copy us or trying to draw his facebook likes and his fans, his words away from him and take it for their own, which didn't make A lot of sense or mean anything to me. He felt incredibly threatened by anyone else that would try to do this line.

[Crystal Marks]

Of work in his city.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix used his social media to rail against his new enemies.

[Crystal Marks]

It was this feud online of I do this better. No, I do this better. Phoenix jones was constantly saying, like, fine, you can say that you do homeless outreach better. I'm sure you do, but that doesn't really matter. That's not really taking care of a community as long as you acknowledge that I'm the better fighter.

[David Weinberg]

The feud between Phoenix and the other Seattle superheroes speaks to something I've noticed a lot in the world of real life superheroes. There seems to be an ideological split at the heart of the community over what a superhero should actually do. Some of the real life superheroes are all about action. They want to take down criminals and stop violent crime. But there are a lot, like crystal, who see real superhero work as the humanitarian stuff, like homeless outreach. They aren't interested in getting into fights. In fact, they see the flashy, action packed crime fighting as reckless and irresponsible. Personally, I don't understand why these two models can't coexist peacefully. But then, I'm not Phoenix Jones. Among the rest of Phoenix's crew, the reaction to their superhero rivals was mixed. Midnight Jack was more action oriented. He was all about dousing people with flour and pepper spray. Crystal didn't think much of his tactics, though.

[Crystal Marks]

Midnight Jack, as someone out on patrol, he's just not bright. Like, there were plenty of times where I've heard of things where he had, like, a flash grenade or like a smoke bomb or something, and he would set it off on accident. Like, you don't carry equipment that you don't know how to use.

[David Weinberg]

On the flip side, Jack thought the other groups, like the Washington initiative, were nothing but attention seekers. For whatever reason, they don't feel secure in themselves. Or maybe they hate their job or.

[Danielle Fishel]

They hate how their life turned out.

[David Weinberg]

And so they're gonna go and dress.

[Midnight Jack]

Up like spider man and run around, take selfies and shit like that.

[David Weinberg]

I seen another crew kick a homeless dude awake to give them a water.

[Midnight Jack]

Bottle so they could take a selfie.

[David Weinberg]

Of it, you know what I mean?

[Crystal Marks]

Like, I watched that happen.

[David Weinberg]

At the other end of the rain city superhero spectrum, Ivo had been getting tired of the media circus around Phoenix and of the constant need to seek out drama in the streets. He felt inspired by his group's new costumed rivals.

[Phoenix Jones]

Holy shit.

[Crystal Marks]

These guys are really professional.

[Phoenix Jones]

They're on top of this. This is very different from what's been.

[Crystal Marks]

Going on on our team, where it's.

[Phoenix Jones]

All about the Facebook likes and it's all about, how many followers do you have?

[David Weinberg]

Ivo reached out to the Washington Initiative and struck up a relationship. At one point, he met Crystal Marks for coffee.

[Phoenix Jones]

Phoenix fell to pieces over it, and he.

[Carmen Best]

He wanted to pat me down to.

[Phoenix Jones]

Make sure I didn't have any bugs.

[Crystal Marks]

Or microchips planted on me, because their.

[Phoenix Jones]

Entire existence is around spying on Phoenix.

[David Weinberg]

According to him, despite Phoenix's paranoia, Eva was undeterred, and he and Crystal hit it off. In fact, a couple years later, their relationship turned into more than a superhero collaboration.

[Phoenix Jones]

You know, her hands would brush on a patrol and like, oh.

[Crystal Marks]

And then he and I started dating, and we got married.

[David Weinberg]

These days, Crystal isn't involved in the superhero movement, but she is still a public servant. From 2019 to 2021, she was the deputy mayor of Burien, a city just south of Seattle. And when she campaigned for office, she did not hide her past as a real life superhero.

[Crystal Marks]

It took me sitting down with my husband and saying, like, does this actually translate? Does real. This type of real world experience of breaking up fights, doing homeless outreach, does that actually translate into public office? And he helped me list out all the ways that it did. Leading groups, making decisions, strategic planning, all of this stuff. And so I ran in 2017. I took out the incumbent in the primary with five people in the race, and then I came in first in the general, and I became deputy mayor two years into my term.

[David Weinberg]

When I interviewed Phoenix, this was one of the parts of his story I was most interested in asking him about. I'd heard stories of him referring to people like Crystal Marx with a derogatory term. It's a story I'd heard from a lot of people who knew him. Apparently, Phoenix called the heroes who focused on homeless outreach real life sandwich handlers. That seemed to be one of the centers of beef around certain members of the Rains of Heroes. Was that, like, you were like, if you want to help people by giving them out food, like, you can't be on my team anymore.

[Phoenix Jones]

That's not what I said.

[David Weinberg]

Say what happened? Like, for sure.

[Phoenix Jones]

If you want to take our main focus and make it humanitarian aid, then you should find another team, because we do humanitarian aid for sure. But the concept is stopping crime. No point in feeding people if the food you feed them gets robbed at their house. It's that simple. I've never seen a comic book where the superhero runs around feeding people cheeseburgers except for the hamburger cartoons that I got from McDonald's in like the 90s. We just have different concepts apparently of like what fighting crime is. You can definitely hand out food. You should definitely do that. There is nothing wrong with that. You don't need to wear an outfit for that at all. Actually wearing an outfit to hand out food to regular ass homeless people makes you an asshole.

[David Weinberg]

Why? Why is that?

[Phoenix Jones]

Because you're showing up and saying, you guys are so disadvantaged that look at me in my giant suit handing you sandwiches that I made in my own house. I mean, it's absurd. I think showing up in a suit and saying, hey, I put on this armor to protect you guys because I care about you. Being stuck out here makes way more sense than me saying, hey, here's a fucking Che, by the way, look at my outfit. I mean, it's insane. It's just incredible. It's like the disconnect between that and fighting crime is mind blowing to me. I don't even get it.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix has a very specific vision of what it means to be a superhero. And for him, anything less than active crime fighting doesn't measure up. But when you make busting criminals your goal, it isn't just the criminals you have to watch out for. Phoenix's daredevil crime stopping approach brought him onto the radar of a powerful enemy. The Seattle Police Department. That's coming up.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[David Weinberg]

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[Midnight Jack]

That's the power of Lenovo.

[David Weinberg]

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[Midnight Jack]

Are you interested in investing in Bitcoin and not sure how to get started? Well, with the Gemini Credit card, a card that I've been using now for a couple months, you can dip your toes in the bitcoin world without even trying. You just spend like you normally do. I go to the gas station, I use it. I go to the grocery store, I use it. I take my wife out, I use it and I instantly earn up to 4% back in Bitcoin or one of the over 50 other cryptos straight to your account. You can choose. There's no annual fee and the Gemini credit card is a no brainer. I love it. I use it all the time and right now you can grab a 200 bitcoin intro bonus. So just go to gemini.com john to learn more and start earning today. Terms apply Again. You go to gemini.com john and start building your Bitcoin stash now. Terms apply. The Gemini Credit card is issued by Web bank and in order to qualify for the intro 200 crypto bonuses, your application must be approved by June 30, 2025 and spend 3,000 in your first 90 days. Terms apply. Some exclusions apply to Insta Rewards in which rewards are deposited when the transaction posts this content is not investment advice and Trading Crypto involves risk. For more details on rates, fees and other Gemini credit card terms C Rates and fees, go to gemini.comjohn to learn more and start earning today.

[David Weinberg]

For a while at least, it seemed that Phoenix Jones had managed to fulfill his dream of becoming Seattle's very own Nightwing, the superhero Phoenix had looked up to as a kid. Things weren't always perfect in the Rain City superhero movement, but for now, Phoenix was patrolling the streets several nights a week, chasing down criminals and snapping photos with fans. But the more attention he got, the more he rankled the local authorities. The problem was that Seattle already had its own force of professional crime fighters, and they felt that Phoenix Jones was stepping on their toes.

[Phoenix Jones]

Police worry Phoenix's recent taste of fame.

[David Weinberg]

Pushes him to put himself in harm's way.

[Midnight Jack]

They insert themselves into a potentially volatile situation, and then they end up being victimized as well. Don't insert yourself into those situations. If you see something, call 911 police.

[Phoenix Jones]

Hope he stops before it's too late.

[David Weinberg]

A pattern began to emerge. Phoenix and his crew would make the news for their latest act of costumed heroism, and the Seattle police department would issue an increasingly exasperated statement to the effect of, thanks, but you can leave the crime fighting to us.

[Carmen Best]

I didn't know anybody who actually thought it was a good idea for them to put themselves in harm's way, Put on these outfits, if you will, and make themselves a target for others.

[David Weinberg]

Carmen best was the chief of the Seattle Police Department from 2018 to 2020. She was the first black woman to lead the force. But before carmen became chief, she held a lot of different roles, and she was there during the height of the Seattle superhero movement.

[Carmen Best]

While you truly respect what they were trying to do, I was very concerned, One, for their safety and two, for their full motive, because we really discourage, as a profession, People doing what we would view as a vigilantism.

[David Weinberg]

Carmen told me that the police department had been watching the superheroes out on patrol and making their TV appearances With growing concern.

[Carmen Best]

They don't have all the same protections that a law enforcement officer who's sworn in, who's had the training that we have in place. There was an instance when one of them was injured pretty significantly and was stabbed. You know, we definitely were cautioning them when that occurred. You know, it was our, you know, our worst fears realized in that situation. And also intervening in the manner that they did, they put themselves in some legal jeopardy as well.

[David Weinberg]

Carmen didn't know which would be superhero. It was in this instance. But Phoenix claims he's been stabbed on patrol More than once, and she definitely remembers him.

[Carmen Best]

Of course, his name came up. He did the most amount of interviews. And was pretty extroverted, if you will, in how he approached this whole thing. In my opinion, I think the opinion of many within the police department, this seemed a little bit like fantasy work, you, know, putting on a uniform or an outfit, because you're actually not a superhero. You're a person who's intervening in what can ostensibly be some pretty dangerous situations. And you could interfere in such a way that causes harm to not only yourself, but to the person you're trying to assist as well. So we were very concerned about it.

[David Weinberg]

I understand this argument, and I think it applies to a lot of people in the real life superhero community. But I also think that this is one of the areas Where Phoenix does have a point. He's not the type of yahoo who simply put on a costume and jumped into this job without thinking about it. He actually put in the time to train.

[Phoenix Jones]

I can't imagine being a cop and not having these certain skills. You know, it's not like going and lifting weights. It's like running and training. My knife disarms like I do Wednesday knife disarms. Right. I do Saturday hand to hand combat. Like. Like I do that all the time, always.

[David Weinberg]

And he isn't only prepared for physical altercations. He also has clearly spent time studying the laws around what he can and can't do when fighting crime.

[Phoenix Jones]

Oh, I don't hire a lawyer anymore because I know all this stuff. I mean, you get sued 27 times. I know all of the laws. The hard part for me is filling out the paperwork appropriately. I've won them all. Just be clear. Every single one of them I one except for one I consider a win. But technically it was not a. It was like a no contest. The guy just didn't show up. But I mean, that's still kind of a win.

[David Weinberg]

A lot of the media reports and statements from the Seattle police around 2011 seemed to speak to an underlying worry that Phoenix might use excessive force in his crime fighting or that he wasn't accountable for his behavior. But those are the same accusations that the U.S. department of justice made about the Seattle Police Department in the Same year the DOJ's Civil Rights Division received a letter in 2010 from the Washington ACLU and 34 other civil rights and community based organizations. The letter requested an investigation into multiple incidents of excessive force by the Seattle Police Department, particularly force used against persons of color. The DOJ launched an investigation and their report found that the SPD were engaging in a pattern or practice of unnecessary or excessive force and that the chain of command does not properly investigate, analyze, or demand accountability from its subordinate officers for their uses of force. They also found serious concerns about biased policing. To date, in April 2022, the Seattle Police are still under federal oversight. As a result of that report, though, a lot of activists in the city think their reforms haven't gone far enough. It's also a reminder of what Phoenix was talking about earlier, about the additional risk that he faces because he's trying to fight crime. As a black man, Phoenix talks about crime fighting like it's his whole reason for being. It's intense, but it's also not unique. A lot of people are drawn to this line of work, but very few of them grind the nipples off a Batman outfit and go around hiding trampolines in alleys. I feel like a lot of people like the more traditional path. For someone who had Those ideals about fighting crime would be to just join the police force. I'm curious why that was not appealing to you.

[Phoenix Jones]

Because I want to help people.

[David Weinberg]

And you don't see the police as being helpful?

[Phoenix Jones]

The police are very, very helpful in certain situations when they understand it on the right day, when you catch the right officer and you happen to have an open and shut situation. But that's not what I consider policing. Where police really shine is investigating crimes that have already taken place. But that is not justice to me. That's legalized retribution. I think if you're a police officer or a crime fighter, your job is to intervene between the incident and the person at the moment of that incident, not to investigate afterwards. Like investigating afterwards is what you've done when a plan fails.

[David Weinberg]

Talking to Phoenix, the biggest beef he seemed to have with the cops was that he thinks they aren't effective at stopping crime. But Phoenix saw that as an opportunity, a gap the cops weren't able to fill. But a superhero might. Cabbie also saw the Rain City superheroes as a way of making up for the police's ineffectiveness.

[Carmen Best]

They show up after a crime has.

[Midnight Jack]

Happened, and a lot of things happen in between when a crime is happening and when law enforcement actually arrives or medical services arrive to actually deal with the problem.

[David Weinberg]

That in between space was where the Rain City superheroes saw work to be done. But even at their most intrepid, they always got law enforcement involved, despite their ambivalent relationship with the cops. In fact, on their patrols, Ivo told me there was even a role dedicated to police liaison.

[Phoenix Jones]

I started being on 911, which means if we saw an actual crime happen, we would call Seattle police right away. That was like step one was call them. Always know where we're at, the street corners know the intersections, know exactly where we're at, so we can report it.

[David Weinberg]

But when the police did show up, things could get tense. Cabbie told me a story about a patrol when things went south.

[Midnight Jack]

We rolled up in Belltown and saw.

[David Weinberg]

This guy harassing this man and woman.

[Carmen Best]

Who were a mixed race couple.

[Midnight Jack]

And instantly we knew, like, we felt like this guy was racist, like, trying.

[David Weinberg]

To attack this couple. According to Cabbie, one of the other Rain City superheroes, Captain Karma, approached the man and told him to leave the couple alone.

[Midnight Jack]

And this guy, like Butterfly, kicked him.

[David Weinberg]

Right in the chest and threw him.

[Midnight Jack]

Out in the street. I was like, what?

[David Weinberg]

The cabbie says he ran over and pinned the guy in a wrestling hold until the police finally arrived.

[Midnight Jack]

They pull up and they pull out Their guns and like, let him go. Let him go. We're like, we want to press charges.

[David Weinberg]

This guy just attacked a couple with their baby. We think he's a racist or whatever.

[Midnight Jack]

Like, let him go. And like, this guy's violent. And they're like, let him go.

[David Weinberg]

So the Rain City superheroes did what they were told and they let the guy go.

[Midnight Jack]

And he runs up and he punches the cop in the face. So then all of a sudden, the.

[David Weinberg]

Cops who have their weapons drawn are.

[Midnight Jack]

Wrestling with this guy and the guns are pointing around, like, to all these different people putting everyone's life in danger.

[David Weinberg]

And so I grab the guy again. Cabbie claims he broke the guy's wrist. The police demanded that the superheroes unmask and hand over their footage, which they agreed to. But then the police let the guy they had just subdued go free. I'm like, nope, I want to press charges. They're like, sorry, we can't press charges against him.

[Midnight Jack]

Like, why is that? Because that's crazy. And they're like, diplomatic immunity. He's from the Russian embassy. So they ended up letting him fucking go. Pardon my language. And we were there looking like dumbasses, I guess. I don't know, sitting there with our masks off, like, hands on the hood, like we were criminals.

[David Weinberg]

Russian diplomats aside, there are a lot of videos that showcase the dysfunctional relationship Phoenix and his crew had with the Seattle police. And Phoenix became increasingly vocal online with his criticisms of the cops.

[Phoenix Jones]

Let's make sure I understand. This guy assaults person. Guy walks away clean and free. Nothing happens. Police won't take my statement, won't take my paperwork. I am pretty pissed off right now.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix had a couple of favorite targets to beef with.

[Phoenix Jones]

Seattle has lost its mind when it comes to what a real crime is. Has lost its mind. And part of that is Pete Holmes and his inability to do his job.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix is talking about former Seattle city Attorney Pete Holmes.

[Phoenix Jones]

Me and Pete Holmes have a history of hating each other too. The district attorney of Seattle is a complete joke. He is trash. Trash.

[David Weinberg]

From 2010 to 2021, Holmes was in charge of all misdemeanor prosecutions in Seattle. He has sandy gray hair parted at the side and glasses. And he embraced a lot of left leaning policies when he was in office. He declined to be interviewed for the series, but he's gone on record multiple times telling Phoenix to stand down. Holmes once said to The Press, quote, Mr. Fodor is no hero, just a deeply misguided individual. He also argued that Phoenix couldn't rely on Seattle's Good Samaritan laws to protect him. He said, quote, our state's Good Samaritan statutes are designed to protect individuals who happen upon, rather than actively seek out, opportunities to render assistance to others. These laws are not designed to protect a branded, costumed character, his roving video crew, or their copyrighted videos. From the reach of tort plaintiffs, it's not surprising that Phoenix and Pete Holmes kept butting heads.

[Phoenix Jones]

The first couple times. The first, like, 10 or 12 times, it was just me pleading with him to actually charge the criminals and him explaining to me how I'm not a police officer, and me being like, yeah, no shit, idiot. I don't need to be a police officer. And him saying, well, it draws a weird precedent. No, what draws a precedence is a guy running around in a rubber suit and actually finding crime. That draws a precedence. Maybe you should do your job.

[David Weinberg]

Throughout 2011, things were getting increasingly tense between Phoenix and Seattle's law enforcement. And while his fellow superheroes didn't necessarily disagree with him, they worried that Phoenix's outspokenness would provoke a backlash.

[Carmen Best]

Jones really instigated the hatred of spd.

[David Weinberg]

That's Cabbie.

[Midnight Jack]

He was just always, like, in interviews, anything. He was like, cops, if they would do their job, blah, blah. It was like, dude, I mean, that's.

[Carmen Best]

Not really how it is.

[Midnight Jack]

He's a total dick to them, which I understand. A young black dude, I get it.

[Carmen Best]

And I'm not an apologist for law enforcement.

[David Weinberg]

Basically, people call and they show up afterwards. It's like trash collectors.

[Midnight Jack]

It's like, you deal with it afterwards, but at the same time, we got all put under the whole blanket. Oh, these guys think they're vigilantes. They're taking the law in their own hand. Is like, no, we're not.

[David Weinberg]

In the early hours of October 9, 2011, Phoenix was out in downtown Seattle patrolling with Ghost, a videographer named Ryan McNamee, and the journalist T. Crullos, who we met back in episode one. It had been a long night, and Phoenix was nearly ready to wrap things up. Then he says one of his crew spotted a fight outside a bar.

[Phoenix Jones]

Phoenix, look down. Huge fight.

[David Weinberg]

Go, go, go, go, go, go.

[Phoenix Jones]

I take off running towards it because I can see these guys are kicking this person on the ground, just beating him up. Get me 911.

[David Weinberg]

Come on.

[Phoenix Jones]

Nine, one, one.

[Crystal Marks]

They're kicking each other, punching each other.

[David Weinberg]

That's T. Pushing each other down the street. Phoenix ran at full tilt and leapt into the middle of it.

[Phoenix Jones]

Break it up. I'm like, break. Fight. Breaks up, everything's cool. Then they start yelling about getting a gun and all kinds of other stuff. They take off to their car. They try to chase me around. The guy chases me, comes at me, so I just bob him with pepper spray. No big deal.

[David Weinberg]

He pepper sprays him.

[Phoenix Jones]

And the pepper spray dissipated into the.

[Crystal Marks]

Air, and everyone was coughing and rubbing their eyes.

[David Weinberg]

In the midst of this chaos, a woman started attacking Phoenix with her shoot.

[Danielle Fishel]

Halloween.

[Phoenix Jones]

My eye. I have body armor, so I'm okay.

[David Weinberg]

But I still give a. And then she fell on her face.

[Phoenix Jones]

The minute she fell, those dudes went crazy, and they started coming back at us.

[Carmen Best]

No, no, I don't want to hurt you.

[Phoenix Jones]

It all sort of grouped together.

[David Weinberg]

And then they rushed us.

[Phoenix Jones]

Protect your sauce.

[Carmen Best]

What?

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, Jesus.

[Phoenix Jones]

And attacked us. I actually got punched in the face. And I was like, don't. Don't punch me. Holy. The cops are already coming. We were in a very chaotic situation. I was genuinely very afraid for my safety.

[Midnight Jack]

This is getting serious.

[Crystal Marks]

Put your camera.

[Phoenix Jones]

Put your camera. My camera is up one point. It looked like they might be looking for a gun. Are they getting guns?

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix pulled out his trusty pepper spray again and gave the attackers another dose.

[Phoenix Jones]

Ghost got kicked and fell over a trash can and busted his finger up. Had to have hand surgery from how bad he hurt his hand. They started throwing rocks at us.

[Midnight Jack]

Watch out.

[Phoenix Jones]

And then tried to run us over with a car. Get that. Get that license.

[Danielle Fishel]

Get that.

[Phoenix Jones]

Ulcers.

[David Weinberg]

Finally, the cops showed up, and they were pissed.

[Crystal Marks]

The first thing this officer said was.

[Phoenix Jones]

Phoenix Jones, I'm tired of playing these games with you, man.

[Midnight Jack]

I'm tired of this game.

[Carmen Best]

We're about to arrest a whole bunch.

[Phoenix Jones]

Of you and clean things up.

[David Weinberg]

According to both T and Phoenix, the police officers were not interested in hearing what Phoenix had to say.

[Phoenix Jones]

They wouldn't look at our video. They wouldn't listen to us. They're like, we've had enough of you superheroes. You've already pepper sprayed three people today, which is true, but you arrested the other two. Like, maybe you don't understand how this works, you know? And then the cop was saying stuff about, like, you're not a police officer. You don't have any authority. You guys are really arrogant to think you can make a difference. I was like, yeah, it's crazy to think you can get into a car, drive to a crime, and make a difference. Right, douche?

[David Weinberg]

The cops arrested Phoenix and took him away in their car. The people who Phoenix said had been fighting were let go. And the other Rain City superheroes melted into the night. T was left standing on the street corner alone and that's when I looked down at my hand and I saw.

[Phoenix Jones]

That my hands were shaking from the.

[David Weinberg]

Adrenaline of what had just happened.

[Phoenix Jones]

I've always liked Phoenix personally and I.

[David Weinberg]

Think that he's done some good things.

[Phoenix Jones]

For the city of Seattle. But it made me realize that the real life superhero thing could be really dangerous.

[David Weinberg]

And in that circumstance I think that.

[Phoenix Jones]

His intention was to help save people because he saw people fighting, but that his interaction made the situation a lot worse.

[David Weinberg]

The pepper spray made everyone angry and.

[Phoenix Jones]

It turned the scene into total chaos.

[David Weinberg]

The tables had turned on Seattle's comic book crusader. This time it was Phoenix who ended up behind bars.

[Danielle Fishel]

Phoenix Jones was arrested arrested by Seattle PD on suspicion of assault.

[Phoenix Jones]

Officers say Jones told them he spotted.

[Danielle Fishel]

Two men fighting but could not explain why.

[Phoenix Jones]

Four people, including two women got pepper sprayed.

[David Weinberg]

Pepper spray Priests Reports of citizens being pepper sprayed by Jones and his group.

[Phoenix Jones]

Pepper spray. No big deal.

[Crystal Marks]

Pepper spray made everyone angry.

[David Weinberg]

The officer wrote that Jones had a history of injecting himself in these incidents.

[Phoenix Jones]

No big deal.

[Crystal Marks]

Everyone was coughing and rubbing their eyes.

[Phoenix Jones]

Turn the scene into total chaos.

[David Weinberg]

Jones has been advised to observe and report incidents to 911.

[Danielle Fishel]

Holy smokes, Batman. I bet this never happens to you.

[David Weinberg]

What's a superhero to do when his back is against the wall? That's coming up on the Superhero Complex. The Superhero Complex is hosted and written by me, David Weinberg and reported by me, Amalia Sortland and Caroline Thornham Production from Amalia Sortland and Caroline Thornham. Sean Glenn, Max o' Brien and David Waters are executive producers. Fact checking by Andrew Schwartz Production management from Cherie Houston, Frankie Taylor and Charlotte Wolf Sound design, mixing and scoring by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters. Original music is composed by Paul Housden. Special thanks to Peter Tangen, Willard Foxton, Matt o', Meara, Katrina Norvell, Beth Ann Macaluso, Oren Rosenbaum, Shelby Shenkman and all the team at uta. For more from Novel visit Novel Audio.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[Carmen Best]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[David Weinberg]

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[Midnight Jack]

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[David Weinberg]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Crystal Marks]

This is an iHeart podcast.