5: The Rogue Era

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Superhero Complex – Episode 5: The Rogue Era

Introduction

In Episode 5, titled "The Rogue Era," of The Superhero Complex podcast produced by Novel for iHeartRadio, journalist David Weinberg delves deeper into the tumultuous journey of Phoenix Jones, Seattle's most prominent real-life superhero. This episode explores the unraveling of Phoenix Jones's mission, the personal and professional repercussions he faces, and the eventual disintegration of his superhero team.

Arrest and Identity Reveal

The episode begins with Phoenix Jones's arrest for assault involving the use of pepper spray. Weinberg recounts the events of October 9, 2011, when Phoenix was booked into the county jail and later bailed out. During his court appearance, Phoenix's nemesis, Seattle attorney Pete Holmes, confronts him, urging Phoenix to abandon his vigilante activities.

At [04:01], Phoenix responds defiantly:

"He's trying to convince me not to fight crime. Like, if you don't stop fighting crime, you're gonna tell me your identity. I'm like, you can't threaten me with something like, I will not be threatened... Ridiculous."

Inspired by Tony Stark's (Iron Man) iconic identity reveal, Phoenix decides to publicly disclose his true identity. On October 13, 2011, wearing his superhero costume, he holds a press conference outside the courthouse:

"I'm Phoenix Jones. I'm Elsa Ben Foder. I'm just like everyone else. The only difference is that I decided to make a difference and stop crime in my neighborhood, in my area." ([05:22])

This bold move aims to legitimize his actions and challenge law enforcement's perception of him. As Phoenix states:

"People thought I was a guy running around in spandex trying to fight crime who was kind of a clown. But when you expose who I am behind it, you find out that I'm a four-time regional champion martial artist, a black belt in taekwondo, have over 350 crime stops..." ([07:40])

Impact of Nicole Westbrook's Murder

Phoenix's confidence is short-lived. On April 22, 2012, a tragic incident occurs that profoundly affects him and his team. Dennis, a young businessman visiting Seattle, becomes an accidental witness to a violent shooting while Phoenix and his team are on patrol. Phoenix arrives at the chaotic scene but is unable to prevent the tragic death of 21-year-old Nicole Westbrook.

Phoenix reflects on this event:

"I took a long portion of my life and dedicated to stopping bad people from doing bad things... But in my mind, he's a four-time regional champion martial artist... But when it came to the senseless act of violence that ended Nicole Westbrook's life, I was just as powerless as everyone else." ([26:37])

The failure to save Nicole deeply shakes Phoenix, leading to self-doubt and emotional turmoil. His teammate, Ghost, remarks:

"That was when my friend in my mind died." ([32:08])

Phoenix's Rampage and Downfall

Struggling with guilt and frustration, Phoenix enters what he describes as his "rogue era." During this period, his behavior becomes increasingly erratic and reckless. Phoenix admits to burning through his resources and engaging in destructive actions within Seattle's homeless encampments, known as "the Jungle."

At [40:22], Phoenix confesses:

"And I went through every single tent and ripped them apart and got in fights and destroyed things."

One particularly alarming incident involves Phoenix's attempt to retaliate against alleged perpetrators of a date rape drug:

"We went to this party, and I dropped in this dude's drink, and he just... out, right? So I rented a hotel, put him in the hotel, took all of his clothes off, wrote a note on the door that said, thanks for the good time..." ([48:35])

These actions starkly contrast with his earlier mission to protect and assist, revealing a darker side of his vigilante persona.

Team's Reaction and Breakup

Phoenix's deteriorating behavior strains relationships within his superhero team. His former teammate, Ivo, becomes increasingly frustrated with Phoenix's unpredictability and lack of accountability. During a confrontation, Ivo criticizes Phoenix's methods and reliability:

"We've done it every time... Ivo grew more and more frustrated with Phoenix's erratic behavior." ([45:35])

Crystal Marx, another member of the team, voices skepticism about Phoenix's sincerity:

"She always felt that Phoenix used Nicole Westbrook's murder to his advantage." ([42:19])

These internal conflicts culminate in the team's fragmentation, as members lose trust and faith in Phoenix's leadership and mission.

Debate on Perfection in Crime Fighting

A significant portion of the episode features a contentious debate between David Weinberg and Phoenix Jones regarding Phoenix's assertion of being "perfect" at crime fighting. Phoenix maintains that his focus and dedication make him flawless in his mission:

"Perfect in crime fighting is just this. Not breaking the law, not harming other people and stopping the crime. Right. We've done it every time... It's just what I am." ([50:03])

Weinberg challenges this claim by highlighting events where Phoenix failed to achieve his objectives, such as the inability to prevent Nicole's death:

"But isn't that a little bit like... the person who did it never got caught, right?" ([50:18])

Phoenix counters by redefining what constitutes success in crime fighting, asserting that his primary role is to protect rather than to ensure every criminal is apprehended:

"My job is not to catch the people who do crimes, is to protect the people who are getting hurt from the crime." ([50:25])

Conclusion

The episode "The Rogue Era" paints a sobering picture of Phoenix Jones's decline from a celebrated real-life superhero to a figure grappling with personal failures and moral dilemmas. The tragic loss of Nicole Westbrook serves as a pivotal moment that exposes the vulnerabilities and complexities of vigilante justice. As the episode concludes, the dissolution of the Rain City Superheroes team signals the end of an era, leaving listeners to ponder the fine line between heroism and folly.

Notable Quotes

• Phoenix Jones on refusing threats:

  "I will not be threatened. You have nothing to threaten me with. Ridiculous." ([04:01])

• Phoenix on exposing his true identity:

  "I'm Phoenix Jones. I'm Elsa Ben Foder. I'm just like everyone else." ([05:22])

• Reflection on Nicole's death:

  "I was just as powerless as everyone else." ([26:37])

• Phoenix on his altered approach post-tragedy:

  "I start patrol right about an hour into patrol. I'd be like, alright, guys, if I need you, I'll give you a call." ([44:18])

• Debate on perfection in crime fighting:

  "Perfect in crime fighting is just this. Not breaking the law, not harming other people and stopping the crime." ([50:03])

Final Thoughts

Episode 5 of The Superhero Complex offers a deep dive into the complexities of self-appointed heroes navigating personal and societal challenges. Through Phoenix Jones's story, the podcast raises essential questions about the efficacy, ethics, and psychological toll of real-life vigilantism.

Transcript

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[David Weinberg]

Novel.

[Danielle Fishel]

Phoenix Jones was arrested by Seattle PD on suspicion of assault.

[Phoenix Jones]

Four people got pepper sprayed. The pepper spray turned the scene into total chaos.

[David Weinberg]

When we last left, our hero, Phoenix Jones, he'd just been arrested for pepper spraying a bunch of people outside a bar that night. On October 9, 2011, he was booked into the county jail and then bailed out. He says that when he showed up to court a few days later, his old nemesis, Seattle attorney Pete Holmes, was there waiting for him.

[Phoenix Jones]

He's trying to convince me not to fight crime. Like, if you don't stop fighting crime, you're gonna tell me your identity. I'm like, you can't threaten me with something like, I will not be threatened. You have nothing to threaten me with. Like, it's ridiculous for you to think you're gonna threaten me. Ridiculous. The concept's offensive. You threatening me? Ridiculous. Like, oh, you're gonna tell everybody my identity. You already did jerk off. I'm in court. You think we can keep all these court documents sealed? I'm aware the clock's ticking. That's why you did it. You did it to expose me and to make fun of me because you thought that people would think I was a clown.

[David Weinberg]

It was at this moment that Phoenix decided he would turn the tables on his nemesis.

[Phoenix Jones]

That was one of those moments where I was like, everything sucks, but if it's gonna suck, it's gonna suck my way.

[David Weinberg]

He looked to Iron man for inspiration, specifically the scene where the inventor Tony Stark reveals his identity at a press conference.

[Danielle Fishel]

And now Mr. Stark has prepared a statement.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix watched that clip over and over.

[Phoenix Jones]

Again, like five or six times in a row.

[David Weinberg]

Truth is, I am Iron Man.

[Phoenix Jones]

And I was like, I'm gonna do my version of that.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix set up a press conference outside the courthouse on October 13, 2011. Wearing his black and gold superhero costume, flanked by people in business suits, he turns to the reporters and speaks.

[Phoenix Jones]

I'm Phoenix Jones. I'm Elsa Ben Foder. I'm just like everyone else. The only difference is that I decided to make a difference and stop crime in my neighborhood, in my area.

[David Weinberg]

The reveal didn't quite have that Hollywood polish, but it was an impressive thing to witness. Phoenix had made it clear to Pete Holmes and the rest of the Seattle Police Department, the whole world really, that he would not back down from his mission to fight crime. As Phoenix saw it, he called their bluff and they folded.

[Phoenix Jones]

Life only gives you a certain amount of moments, right? And I think sometimes people are conflicted by how they feel their emotions, right? Whereas I'm not. So really have a chance to look at them as how can I add to my legacy at this moment, Phoenix.

[David Weinberg]

Concluded his press conference with an announcement. The city attorney could take his request that Phoenix stop fighting crime and shove it. I'm paraphrasing. What he actually said was that he was heading back out on patrol that weekend. But the point still stands. Phoenix Jones would not be deterred. I'm David Weinberg, and from the teams at Novel and iHeartRadio, this is the Superhero Complex. Episode 5, the Rogue Era. When Phoenix Jones revealed his identity outside the Seattle courthouse, it was a moment of triumph. Shortly after Pete Holmes office announced that they were dropping the charges for the pepper spray incident.

[Phoenix Jones]

I think that just went perfectly. Other than having to reveal my identity, it really went perfectly because I think that legitimized me as a superhero in a weird way.

[Danielle Fishel]

Why?

[David Weinberg]

How?

[Phoenix Jones]

Well, because when I revealed my secret identity, every news article said, hey, superhero reveals secret identity. You have to be a superhero to have a secret identity. And I revealed it because the cops were coming, coming after me for stopping crime.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix said that in a way, revealing his identity actually helped him because before now, nobody had been able to check whether he had bona fide superhero credentials.

[Phoenix Jones]

People thought I was a guy running around in spandex trying to fight crime who was kind of a clown. But when you expose who I am behind it, you find out that I'm a four time regional champion martial artist, a black belt in taekwondo, have over 350 crime stops. Now they can look up because they know my actual name. And then they see all these legal police stops where my name is mentioned in crime reports, including an attempted murder stop, right? And all of a sudden you're like, oh, that guy's not a clown. So in a weird way, it legitimized me further than I ever could.

[David Weinberg]

If Seattle's law enforcement were out to get Phoenix by charging him for a crime they had failed. If anything, the arrest made Phoenix more confident and more defiant. Shortly after he revealed his true identity, he made an appearance on Fox News On Megyn Kelly's show, Phoenix. Is it true that at the end.

[Danielle Fishel]

Of the court hearing yesterday, you tore off your dress shirt to reveal your signature black and green superhero costume?

[Phoenix Jones]

It's black and gold. Yeah. I was wearing my super suit because this wasn't about the guy under the mask. They were charging Phoenix Jones, because I'm Phoenix Jones. If I was a regular person and I had just regularly pepper sprayed someone who was in a fight, they would have shook my hand and sent me away. So I wore the suit because that's what this was about. And I took my mask off because the person suffering for it is the person under the mask.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix may have won his first major battle with the police, but it was really just the start of the war. When Phoenix was arrested, the Seattle police confiscated his beloved super suit, and they refused to give it back. Phoenix complained about it on the local Seattle radio program, the Bob River Show. Why did they confiscate your suit?

[Phoenix Jones]

There's two answers. There's the politically correct answer and then the truth.

[David Weinberg]

So the politically correct Phoenix says that the police claimed his suit was evidence and they needed it to identify him. He says that doesn't make any sense because he'd already identified himself publicly. He ends up complaining to the host about the fact that he's having to use a substandard replacement suit. A bulletproof vest, Stab plating.

[Phoenix Jones]

This one doesn't have the stab plate. And the police confiscated that suit. This one is not so expensive. The other one that the police confiscated as quotations. Evidence. Evidence was like, 7777.

[Danielle Fishel]

Holy moly. What are they doing? That makes me mad.

[Phoenix Jones]

They're probably wearing it and taking photos. Do you call every day and ask.

[Danielle Fishel]

About the suit, or are you getting a suit?

[Phoenix Jones]

Yeah, I call several times. Several times a day.

[Danielle Fishel]

Hi, it's me, Phoenix Jones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Phoenix.

[Phoenix Jones]

The thing that's weird is that no one is assigned to my suit, so there's not an officer I can call directly.

[David Weinberg]

In the moments right after Phoenix revealed his identity in his dramatic press conference, it felt like he'd won a massive victory over the system. But the reality was that Phoenix had just opened up a huge can of worms. And the repercussions of his decision to out himself were about to hit with disastrous consequences.

[Phoenix Jones]

What was hard for me is when my identity came out, I was working with autistic children, so they yanked my state license and a bunch of other stuff and said I was crazy.

[David Weinberg]

When Ben Fodor wasn't putting on a superhero costume. And chasing down criminals as Phoenix Jones, or training at the gym or competing as an MMA fighter. He was at his day job caring for kids with autism. He went to their homes or to state run facilities, and he took them out shopping and helped them learn other life skills they would need to navigate the world as adults.

[Phoenix Jones]

Both my parents own a foster home that works with autistic children for a living. When I turned 18, the first job I ever had was working with autistic children. I worked with autistic children until I was 25. And I got, like, a bunch of different awards for, like, you know, teacher of the year and all kinds of different stuff. For working with autistic kids and helping them cope with their general life skills. I found them incredibly easy to, like, understand and, like, incredibly easy to help. So being somewhat on that spectrum would make that easier, I guess.

[David Weinberg]

Obviously, any person who becomes a real life superhero probably thinks outside of societal norms. But there were also these small moments I had with Phoenix that revealed something deeper about how he sees the world, about his thought processes. For example, one night I was driving with Phoenix when he got a text from his girlfriend, Dre. He pulled over to respond, and then he explained this bizarre system he created for talking to friends over text messages.

[Phoenix Jones]

I don't always understand how to explain things to other people or, like, what you value as a way to show that I like you is not ever going to be something that I value. So I came up with a system with my friends where when I think about them, I'll send a number. Like, if it's like, so 3, 13 is like a sandwich. Any number has a sandwich or a run. Like 1, 2, 3. Like 1 in the morning, 1:23 in the morning.

[David Weinberg]

Sandwich.

[Phoenix Jones]

What do you mean? Like two numbers on the end and one number in the middle, Right? When I'm thinking of my friends, I'll send them a random set of numbers. You know what I mean? Because math always makes sense. 347, right? Three plus four equals seven. So I'll send them like three plus four and then an equal sign. Seven. Right. So we all send each other numbers back and forth. It's kind of like saying, I'm thinking about you at a specific time, or I waited till that time because you're an important person to me and math makes sense to me.

[David Weinberg]

I didn't quite understand Ben's system. It just sounds a little like autistic to me.

[Phoenix Jones]

Yeah, well, like, on the spectrum, people have said that about me before. You know, it's hard to Explain. I don't know. I feel like autism is a negative thing. Like, people are always saying something negative about being autistic in my mind. And if I am autistic, then I guess I'm one of the most successful autistic people that there is. Like, I win at every game I play. So whatever label people want to put on that, they can. I don't give a fuck, I guess.

[David Weinberg]

After Phoenix was arrested, the Department of Social and Health Services notified his employer, who barred him from working with any of the children in their care. Phoenix was told to leave immediately. He says he had to walk out of his job in the middle of the day.

[Danielle Fishel]

Day.

[David Weinberg]

The department spokesperson said they were just trying to err on the side of caution and that he could have his job back if he wasn't convicted. But after the charges were dropped, Phoenix says he still had to prove that he wasn't mentally ill before they'd consider letting him go back to work. One test he says he was given was supposed to determine whether or not he was autistic. At the end of the test, Phoenix got a score, a number that determined where on the autism spectrum someone is. Phoenix says he scored a 57 out of 100.

[Phoenix Jones]

Anything above 50 could be autistic. Anything above 65 is autistic. So what the fuck does that mean?

[David Weinberg]

The part of the test that really tripped Phoenix up was the facial recognition questions.

[Phoenix Jones]

There's a part where they play, like, a video of these faces and people make weird faces, right? And they're supposed to say what emotion the person's feeling. I had no fucking clue. Like, it was just, like, random faces. It didn't make any sense. No one could have done it. It was crazy. So afterwards I was like, this is insane. So I told my doctor about it. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, the facial recognition recognizant test or whatever, right? So they were like, well, we'll give it to you again. So I did it again. I scored the exact same thing, right then he was like, watch your son do it, because my son was with me right then my son did it, and he just straight up was like, sad, happy, confused, angry, and nailed all of them. So it was like this weird moment where I'm like, okay, there's something happening here that I'm not seeing clearly.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix told me that the autism assessment was just one of several psychological tests he was given.

[Phoenix Jones]

So it took me, like, three years of, like, proving I'm not a crazy person.

[David Weinberg]

What was that three year process of trying to prove that you weren't crazy. What did that look like?

[Phoenix Jones]

Well, like verse. I had to go to a stupid hearing. Then after the hearing, I had to submit a piece of paper. And then they wanted me to do a mental evaluation. And then they did IEP meetings, which are like, between like the kids that you work with and the parents. And final process was something called a judgment review, which is like, where they just ask you a bunch of questions basically. But I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't hard because I'm not crazy.

[David Weinberg]

Eventually, Phoenix says he did everything he needed to pass the psychological tests. But in the meantime, he was still out of a job and a super suit. But Phoenix was determined to continue protecting the citizens of Seattle. So he put on his budget backup suit and hit the streets looking for action. For Phoenix, the only thing that mattered was the work. Protecting those in danger and helping those in need, even if everything else in his life was a total mess.

[Phoenix Jones]

I'm deficient in these areas over here, but none of them have to do with crime fighting. That is the one place I am fucking flawless.

[David Weinberg]

Now here is one issue that Phoenix and I will never agree on. I wholly reject the idea that Phoenix is perfect at crime fighting. I mean, this is a guy who almost drowned in a puddle because he got caught in his own net and then got robbed by the criminal he was chasing. Also, every time I hung out with Phoenix, we had to use my rental car to get around because his car had either been towed or. Or broken into by thieves who he was never able to apprehend. So, yeah, I think we have different ideas about what crime fighting perfection looks like. But Phoenix was adamant that he had achieved it. There's no crime he can't stop, Nobody he can't save. But there was one tragic incident in 2012 that Phoenix admittedly failed to prevent. It was a night that changed everything. That's coming, coming up.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[David Weinberg]

On April 22, 2012, a young businessman named Dennis was in Seattle for a work trip. I had brought my wife and one of my kids up there to spend the weekend. They did some shopping and cruising around.

[Phoenix Jones]

While I did all my work.

[David Weinberg]

After he wrapped up the day's business he went to see the supercross at the football stadium with a friend. They were grabbing some food and heading back to the hotel where Dennis's wife was waiting for him. It was 2 o' clock in the morning on a Saturday night, so bars were closing and it was busy down there, so there was a ton of people. They walked from the stadium to Pioneer Square, where the streets were filled with tourists and folks from the surrounding suburbs who came into the area for the bars and clubs. There was also a large community of homeless people and drug dealers who catered to them.

[Phoenix Jones]

Phoenix. Hey, what's up, brother?

[David Weinberg]

Which was why they. Phoenix was a few streets away on patrol with Ghost, Midnight Jack, Captain Karma, and a few other members of the Rain City Superheroes.

[Phoenix Jones]

How you doing, boss? We got some superheroes out here.

[David Weinberg]

So far, it had been just like any other night on patrol. They'd looked for bar fights or drunk people in need of assistance. And as usual, Phoenix had snapped some photos with late night revelers.

[Phoenix Jones]

Yeah, we'll definitely. How you doing? Come on, you gotta hurry. We're leaving real quick. One, two, three. There we go. Have a good night. Save the world, baby.

[David Weinberg]

By the time Dennis was setting off back to his hotel, the Rain City Superheroes had stopped a couple blocks away outside a nightclub called Trinity.

[Phoenix Jones]

A lot of people out here. Right spot, Right spot. Absolutely.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix was preoccupied with some communication problems.

[Phoenix Jones]

Say it again. We're losing contact, brother. Our radios were trash. We had literally kid radios that we had painted. Karma, what's your code? I tried to hail Captain Karma on the radio and he didn't answer. Karma, report. Make him give me good radio contact. All right, who's running your radio?

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix was getting frustrated.

[Phoenix Jones]

Can you hear when I call you? Yes. I called you three times. You didn't respond. Really? Yes, really. Put it in your pocket. I heard. Put it in your pocket.

[David Weinberg]

I'm holding it.

[Phoenix Jones]

Put it back.

[David Weinberg]

Where was at this point, locked in a petty argument about communication. They had no idea that their night was about to be turned inside out.

[Phoenix Jones]

And I couldn't hear what code you were, so I freaked out because. Bang, bang, bang. Gunshots, gunshots, gunshots. Three gunshots go off. And I'm like, yo, follow me. Team one, Team two, follow me.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix immediately started sprinting towards the sound. Within seconds, he'd arrived at a street called Yesler Way. People were screaming and fleeing in all directions.

[Phoenix Jones]

There's a person standing on their cell phone. There's a guy who's kind of crouching, you know, and then over here, there's like a car that's driving by, and then I see it. The guy crouching's got a gun.

[David Weinberg]

Dennis said he and his friend were there too, in the midst of the chaos. They'd been crossing the road when the shots were fired. You could hear the panic.

[Phoenix Jones]

It was chaos, like, scary.

[David Weinberg]

Over on his side of Yesler Way, Phoenix froze.

[Phoenix Jones]

Out of the corner of my eye, the person on the cell phone just like drops. And it's a weird kind of drop because it's like. Like everything just stopped working versus, like someone laying down or being hurt. Like, it just was like.

[David Weinberg]

The person who dropped to the ground was 21 year old Nicole Westbrook. Nicole had been shot in the face, and the bullet had gone through her cheek and shattered her spine. Dennis said he ran towards her. Everything slowed down. It went into, like, slow motion. I was just trying to keep her alert and awake and talking to me.

[Phoenix Jones]

So I had my hand kind of.

[David Weinberg]

Underneath her neck to kind of have her, like, look at me and talk to me. And I felt blood underneath her neck.

[Phoenix Jones]

I could tell that's where she had been shot.

[David Weinberg]

And yeah, I just sat there kind.

[Phoenix Jones]

Of screaming and yelling for police to come.

[David Weinberg]

By this point, Dennis said the square had emptied.

[Phoenix Jones]

It was scary quiet after the shooting because everybody was gone. There wasn't a soul around me.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix was gone too. He'd taken off in pursuit of the person he'd seen crouching who he thought was the gunman. He tore down the street past confused onlookers, and he says he ran into the cops who were arriving on the scene.

[Phoenix Jones]

And I'm like, yo, the shooter went this way. And the cops are like, hold up, Phoenix.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix says the police wanted to wait for backup.

[Phoenix Jones]

I'm like, that's ridiculous. I didn't come into this game to play these rules and, like, do this shit, like. But it was too late. It's mathematically not intelligent to run around a blind corner into the dark with a dude who has a weapon. But it could have done it if I kept going when I started, if I hadn't stopped, I wanted to. To do something, you know, we all got dressed up to do something.

[David Weinberg]

In the body cam footage available online, Phoenix talks to the police a few times, but I couldn't hear the cops telling him to turn back. Either way, Phoenix says he lost sight of the man he was chasing, and he blames himself for giving up the chase. Back at the intersection on Yesler Way, Dennis says he sat with Nicole and her boyfriend until the ambulance arrived. The couple had just Moved to Seattle three weeks earlier. Nicole had just started classes in a culinary program at the art Institute, and her boyfriend had recently been hired at a screen printing shop. They were out that night to celebrate their good fortune at landing a job and starting a new life together in the city. When the ambulance arrived, Nicole was alive but in critical condition. Dennis watched the medics pull away and walked back to his hotel with his shirt covered in blood. I remember seeing, like, a.

[Phoenix Jones]

He's dressed up like a superhero in o'.

[Danielle Fishel]

Cape, you know, you're in downtown Seattle.

[David Weinberg]

It's another crazy guy dressed up in a costume.

[Phoenix Jones]

I really didn't think anything of it.

[David Weinberg]

It's all gonna stay with me probably forever. It just changes you when something like that happens. Phoenix says that after he gave up his pursuit of the gunman, he returned to the scene of the shooting.

[Phoenix Jones]

The cops wouldn't let me leave because I was the key witness of the thing. And I'm sitting there on the curb right there, like, on the corner. And then after a little bit of time, like, the crime tape, they just take the crime tape down. And then I'm sitting there, and I'm just. Just me. And I'm just, like, sitting next to this pile of blood on the street in my suit. And it's like, the morning, and, like, people are coming to work and, like, living their lives and doing their thing. And then, like, maybe, like, seven, a fire truck comes by and just sprays all the blood into the drain. And that was it. You know what I mean? Like, nothing got fixed. Nothing got solved. None of us helped in any way. The shooter never got captured. We all just didn't do our job.

[David Weinberg]

Nicole never regained consciousness. She died in the hospital three days after she was shot. It's still an unsolved case. Her family keeps a Facebook page running, hoping for new information that might lead to an arrest.

[Phoenix Jones]

There are just moments in your life that you are never gonna forget.

[David Weinberg]

Yeah.

[Phoenix Jones]

I took a long portion of my life and dedicated to stopping bad people from doing bad things. And I don't care if people don't like me. I don't care if people don't agree with what I did. But I live with the repercussions of what I did every day, you know?

[David Weinberg]

Yeah. Realistically, there's nothing Phoenix could have done to save Nicole. He was blocks away when the shots were fired. But maybe that's why he was so affected by it. When Phoenix told me about how he'd been inspired by the Nightwing comics as a kid, he'd vowed that he would never be helpless again. But when it came to the senseless act of violence that ended Nicole Westbrook's life, he was just as powerless as everyone else. Several of Phoenix's former teammates told me that he was never the same after that night. Ghost, who was with Phoenix during the shooting and has known him since they were in high school, put it bluntly.

[Phoenix Jones]

That was when my friend in my mind died.

[Danielle Fishel]

And what we have now is not.

[Phoenix Jones]

Who I used to know, but he.

[Danielle Fishel]

He did used to mean a lot to me as a person.

[Phoenix Jones]

I followed him into gunfire multiple times. He did, too. You know, we all did against our better judgment often. But in my opinion, he took that, the fact that we couldn't save that one person that night way too personally.

[Danielle Fishel]

And I don't.

[Phoenix Jones]

It sounds terrible coming out like that, but like, there's a nature to this and we're not gonna win everything, you know? But he somehow took that upon himself.

[Danielle Fishel]

In a way that I think changed him.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix returned from that devastating patrol a different man. And the transformation would have consequences for everyone around him. That's coming up.

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[David Weinberg]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[David Weinberg]

In the days after Nicole Westbrook's murder, Phoenix was in bad shape.

[Phoenix Jones]

Didn't come inside a house, take a shower, take my super suit, including my mask, off for four days. I was, like, patrolling at night and then just, like, just sleeping outside wherever I wanted. I mean, I lost my mind. I just, like, stopped looking for, like, four days.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix was fixated on the man he'd seen crouching at the scene of the crime, and he was determined to find him. How were you able to find him? Because you knew what he looked like.

[Phoenix Jones]

I knew what he looked like. I knew most likely from his clothes. He didn't have a car. And there's this place called the Jungle. It's like a lot of homeless encampments just stretched next to the side of the city freeway. I was like, I bet you he's in that place.

[David Weinberg]

The jungle stretches for three miles in a green belt directly underneath Interstate 5. It's a sea of tents with a constant drone of traffic from the cars 50ft overhead. According to some reports, unhoused people have lived in the jungle since as far back as the 1930s. Phoenix made his way to the Jungle in the hopes of forest finding the suspect.

[Phoenix Jones]

And I went through every single 10 and ripped them apart and got in fights and destroyed things.

[David Weinberg]

This is one of the few times Phoenix has ever admitted to losing his cool and going against his own strict moral code. Despite his objections in the past about homeless outreach not being a central part of his mission as a superhero, he's always claimed to offer assistance to those in need when he comes across them. But rampaging through a homeless encountment and destroying people's only belongings, Phoenix was out of control.

[Phoenix Jones]

Eventually someone was like, yo, stop it. This is where that dude's at. And this took me there. And then me and him had a conversation.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix told me that when he finally found the man, he'd been hunting for days. It turned out that he'd been after the wrong person. Phoenix said the man talked to him and convinced him that he wasn't the shooter. The police investigating believe it was a drive by and that the shots had been fired from a white sedan. When he heard this, Phoenix felt totally deflated.

[Phoenix Jones]

I went back to, like, under the bridge on James Street. There's like a parking lot. I was sitting up against a pole and asked if I was going to sleep under the parking lot. And then Ghost found me because of my cell phone tracker that we had on. He's like, yo, you gotta stop patrolling.

[David Weinberg]

Ghost had been there the night of the shooting as well, but he told me he had a different perspective on it than Phoenix.

[Phoenix Jones]

It does get to me in that way.

[Danielle Fishel]

I have severe ptsd and I manage.

[Phoenix Jones]

It every day of my life. You know, there'd be something wrong with you if it didn't get to you.

[David Weinberg]

But you can't let one loss define.

[Danielle Fishel]

You, and I think that's what he did.

[David Weinberg]

In the aftermath of the shooting, some team members were skeptical about how sincere Phoenix's reaction was. Fellow real life superhero Crystal Marx told me that she always felt that Phoenix used Nicole Westbrook's murder to his advantage.

[Phoenix Jones]

I think it definitely left an impact.

[Danielle Fishel]

You can't be a human and know that that happened and not be changed in some way. But he keeps coming back and like.

[Phoenix Jones]

I can't rest until her killer is found.

[Danielle Fishel]

And it's again, he uses it for media attention.

[Phoenix Jones]

Like, I don't know if he really.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was all that impacted.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix did interviews with the media about the murder. Nicole's family thanked him on their Facebook page for raising awareness. But Phoenix also had a comic book made which featured the shooting starring him. It included graphic images of Nicole laying in A pool of her own blood. Phoenix said on a radio show that it was intended to shine a light on the unsolved case. But there's something about making a comic book about a tragedy like that and making yourself the star, that just feels a little gross to me. Whenever Nicole's murder came up, when I talked to him, Phoenix was still very emotional about it, even all these years later.

[Phoenix Jones]

I just. I cannot explain why this event hurts me so much inside this person. I don't know. Getting shot by someone I don't know. In a scenario when the guns were already done before we could do anything, you know, there's nothing we could have done. There's no amount of training, there's no amount of superhero suits or movies or ideas or beliefs that are changing that. Nothing changes that.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix told me that after the shooting, his approach to crime fighting totally changed.

[Phoenix Jones]

I start patrol right about an hour into patrol. I'd be like, all right, guys, if I need you, I'll give you a call. And then I would go tear up the jungle and get in fist fights with, like, crazy. Like, just crazy shit, you know? Or, like, me and Jack would break into an abandoned house that was full of, like, homeless people that were selling drugs in there. And, like, we would just do reckless things. I was on a reckless mission. I was just on one.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix was acting increasingly wild and impulsive. Ivo called him out on it.

[Phoenix Jones]

Ivo was the straight shooter. Like, every time I'd tell him about a plan, he would just be like, no. You want to go break into an abandoned house? No. Like, no, right? But the crew of guys wanted to patrol, and Ivo was the secondary guy that they would follow.

[David Weinberg]

Ivo grew more and more frustrated with Phoenix's erratic behavior.

[Phoenix Jones]

He wouldn't answer anything. He wouldn't answer calls. He wouldn't answer texts, voicemails, emails, messages on Facebook or Twitter or anything like that. Like, he was unreachable in the meantime, like, okay, well, the show must go on. So almost out of necessity, I would leap into this thing. Like, hey, everybody, I just heard from Phoenix that we're doing Cap Hill tonight. So meet at our usual spot at 11 o' clock and we'll figure out rolls there. And be safe.

[David Weinberg]

I asked Phoenix about what Ivo had told me. I think he got frustrated because he said oftentimes you would just disappear and not be reachable and he'd have to kind of like, step in. And I feel like he felt like that hindered the patrols.

[Phoenix Jones]

I would agree. It did.

[David Weinberg]

What was going on with you at that time?

[Phoenix Jones]

I was going rogue. So what he's talking about is like, the rogue era.

[David Weinberg]

The rogue era. Phoenix made no apologies about that chaotic period.

[Phoenix Jones]

Maybe you should go save a sex trafficking ring occasionally. Or maybe you should do something, Ivo, because the thing that Ivo's done was just. What has Ivo done? Did Evo tape at any of his cool crime stops? Tell me one of Evo's crime stops, I'll wait. None.

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, he's not here, but I can't, like.

[Phoenix Jones]

Yeah, but I mean, does he have any. Yeah, I mean, you just interviewed him, right? What was one story he told you about where he stopped a crime? I don't think he told any because he doesn't have any. Stopped the bagel. Evo stopped zero crimes. Full bagels. I'm not being mean. Yeah, none. So what are you talking about, bro? Oh, Phoenix would leave all the time and go fight real crimes while you walked around and gave food to homeless people and smiled for photos and shit because you're like a Captain America. And that's great, dude. Congratulations for you, but, like, I'm into some real shit. We're out here, people are dying. I want to do some real fucking shit.

[David Weinberg]

As things started to unravel for Phoenix, there were other troubling lapses in judgment that caused alarm among his teammates. One incident in particular really rattled Ivo.

[Phoenix Jones]

It was about 11am and I showed up to his house and he is passed out on the couch half naked and like, hey, dude, gotta get up, man. We gotta go.

[David Weinberg]

As Phoenix was waking up, Ivo went to use the bathroom. That's when he noticed the bottle of.

[Phoenix Jones]

Pills right next to the sink of this little medical bottle on its side, half empty, looking at. It's Rohypnol. What the is he doing with date rape drug? What the hell is that? So I come out and I say, hey, what's a little bottle of rubies out there? And he just started like almost panic, speaking at a million miles per hour, talking about how this friend of his had roofied Purple. So Phoenix got some roofies and he was gonna roofie this friend of his in revenge. It clearly made sense to him. But I was so lost on, like, this is something you call the police for, bro. This is what? How is this helping any? Or like, what does this fix?

[David Weinberg]

I asked Phoenix about this incident and he didn't deny it.

[Phoenix Jones]

That's true. Yeah, it happened. Can you tell that story? Fuck evil, man. Shouldn't have shared that. See, remember when I said there were things I've actually done that are bad? Right. This is one of those things I've actually done.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix says he'd seen a guy put Rohypnol in his girlfriend's drink. So he threw out the drink, stole the Rohypnol, and decided to take the matter into his own hands.

[Phoenix Jones]

I was like, yo, Ivo, you gotta help me. And I stole the bottle. And Ivo's like, I'm not gonna commit a crime with you. He's like, how dare you want to hypnos someone? I don't even know if that's where you got it. And got all, like, ridiculous about it, which made sense.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix went through with his plan without Ivo.

[Phoenix Jones]

So then I immediately got on the phone and called someone else, super friend of mine who was, like, 100% down. That's terrible. So we went to this party, and I dropped in this dude's drink, and he just. Out, right? So I rented a hotel, put him in the hotel, took all of his clothes off, wrote a note on the door that said, thanks for the good.

[David Weinberg]

Time, and dipped with the guy passed out. Phoenix says they took his credit card and ordered shrimp and 37 bottles of champagne.

[Phoenix Jones]

We threw the shrimp all around the room and just put, like, put Cook's bottles, and then we put condoms over the tops of Cook's bottles. So he just woke up in this room with just, like, shrimp and Cook's bottles.

[David Weinberg]

So was that. Was that a Phoenix Jones operation, or was that a Ben Fodor operation?

[Phoenix Jones]

How do you. Oh, I wasn't in my uniform. I wouldn't wear regular clothes. I would never do that as Phoenix Jones. There's no reason.

[David Weinberg]

To me, this whole story just seems like an example of Phoenix's immaturity. But it was also an example of yet another way in which Phoenix was not, as he keeps insisting, perfect. The first time we talked, you kept insisting that you were perfect at crime fighting. But then today, I feel like you just keep telling all these stories about when you weren't perfect. I'm perfect. Curious how you, like, square those two ideas.

[Phoenix Jones]

Perfect in crime fighting is just this. Not breaking the law, not harming other people and stopping the crime. Right. We've done it every time.

[David Weinberg]

But what about Nicole? I mean, that's not a win.

[Phoenix Jones]

Not possible to win.

[David Weinberg]

But isn't that a little bit like.

[Phoenix Jones]

No, no, no, no.

[David Weinberg]

Well, I'm just saying, the person who did it never got caught, right?

[Phoenix Jones]

Oh, 100.

[David Weinberg]

Well, that's not a success then.

[Phoenix Jones]

My job is not to catch the people who do crimes, is to protect the people who are getting Hurt from the crime. You have a misconception of what crime fighting is because you don't have any experience on the streets. There's no tidy, closed corners, not even in police work. Never. Right. But there's not one story where I showed up and it got worse, where I showed up and no one got helped, or I showed up and they're like, you broke the law. Or like they sued me 27 times trying to say I broke the law and I fucking didn't. There's never been any of that. It's been 100% flawless. So I don't care if you don't agree, you're just wrong.

[David Weinberg]

I hate to beat a dead horse here, but I am fixated on this claim of Phoenix's that he is perfect at crime fighting. Largely because I want to believe in Phoenix Jones and I want to believe in what he stands for. I see the need for real life superheroes and the potential benefit to society they can provide. But Phoenix's life is messy and there are so many people who say he's betrayed them that it's hard to know if he is to be trusted. And Phoenix's claim that he is perfect is one of the instances where I feel entirely confident pushing back against his version of the story. We have had this debate where you say you're perfect at crime fighting.

[Phoenix Jones]

Yep, hit me.

[David Weinberg]

I disagree. What I'm more interested in is like, why? Because you are admittedly have this like disastrous life. Like you're always like late to things. Like your car's always getting for sure. You have a lot of personal struggles always. And the reason I find the like idea that you can be perfect in crime fighting is like, when you put on the suit, you don't become a different person. So like, how in your mind do you justify this compartmentalization where like, you're perfect at this thing but everything else in your life is a mess. And more importantly, like, why do you feel there's a need to be perfect at crime fighting?

[Phoenix Jones]

I don't. I'm single minded to the point of recklessness and that's why I'm so good at crime fighting and why I'm so bad at everything else. Like, I've got to come to an interview today, right? But my car got fucking towed because of some things. So now I'm focused on that car tow and I'm late for the interview. But when you walk up to a crime scenario, it happens in front of you and involves all of your attention. It's not ideal. The need to be perfect. It's just what I am.

[David Weinberg]

Every time we get into this debate, we reach a stalemate. But regardless of whether or not you believe Phoenix's logic, I think it's safe to say that what he sees as his greatest failure as a superhero, Nicole Westbrook's murder changed his life forever.

[Phoenix Jones]

I don't know, it was weird, but if you like make chapters of people's lives or like in like our time, we use before Christ, like BC and ad, my life would be like before Nicolon, after. It just never got better. And it's really like where the team started unraveling.

[David Weinberg]

That unraveling would ultimately lead to a superhero breakup on a mass scale. Next time the Rain City superheroes come crashing to an end. The superhero Complex is hosted and written by me, David Weinberg and reported by me, Amalia Sortland and Caroline Thornham. Production from Amalia Sortland and Caroline Thornham Sean Glenn, Max o' Brien and David Waters are executive producers. Fact checking by Andrew Schwartz Production management from Cherie Houston, Frankie Taylor and Charlotte Wolf Sound design, mixing and scoring by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters. Original music is composed by Paul Housden. Special thanks to Peter Tangen, Willard Foxton, Matt o', Meara, Katrina Norvell, Beth Ann Macaluso, Oren Rosenbaum, Shelby Shenkman and all the team at uta. For more from novel visit Novel audience.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[David Weinberg]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[David Weinberg]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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