8: The Hero We Deserve

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Superhero Complex - Episode 8: The Hero We Deserve

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Introduction

In Episode 8 of "The Superhero Complex," hosted by David Weinberg and produced by Novel for iHeartRadio, the narrative delves deep into the tumultuous journey of Phoenix Jones, Seattle's most renowned real-life superhero. This episode examines the rise and fall of Phoenix Jones, questioning whether he is a genuine protector of the community or merely a facade masking deeper issues.

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Phoenix Jones: From Hero to Outlaw

The episode begins by recounting the events leading to Phoenix Jones's fall from grace. On January 6, 2020, at 11:14 PM, Phoenix (real name Ben Fodor) receives a mysterious text message that initiates a series of interactions with an undercover police officer. What begins as a seemingly innocent conversation about social plans escalates into a drug deal. Phoenix finds himself arrested at the Silver Cloud Hotel with his girlfriend, Andrea Berenston, after attempting to sell cocaine and MDMA to undercover agents.

[03:04] Phoenix Jones: "Payment of $45 for three month plan."

Despite the straightforward nature of the sting, Phoenix perceives the operation as a targeted effort by the Seattle Police Department (SPD) to tarnish his reputation.

[08:23] Phoenix Jones: "It's been terrible. Been some of the worst times of my entire life."

Charges and Legal Proceedings

Initially charged with two counts of violation of the Uniform Controlled Substances Act, Phoenix pled guilty in March 2021 to lesser conspiracy charges. This plea resulted in minimal punishment—four days in jail (time served) and a $600 fine—raising suspicions about the validity and intentions behind the prosecution.

[16:15] David Weinberg: "Phoenix did plead guilty to two counts of conspiracy to commit violation of the Uniform Controlled Substances Act."

David Weinberg scrutinizes the police's motives, suggesting that the SPD's past questionable sting operations lend credence to Phoenix's claims of being unfairly targeted.

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Seattle Police Department and Public Perception

David Weinberg interviews Rich Smith, a journalist from The Stranger, who provides insight into the SPD's reputation. The department is described as "overfunded" and "moribund," often criticized for biased policing and ineffective sting operations.

[17:39] Rich Smith: "The Seattle Police Department is a moribund institution that's overfunded."

Phoenix's association with the SPD during his arrest fuels his narrative of being a victim of systemic bias, further complicating public perception.

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Phoenix Jones's Attempted Comeback Amidst Social Unrest

By May 2020, Phoenix seemingly retires from his superhero activities. However, the outbreak of the George Floyd protests reignites his desire to protect the community. Phoenix announces his return via a tweet, offering assistance to those injured or in need during the chaos.

[31:09] Phoenix Jones: "If you're injured and you need my help, give me a call. Hit me up on Twitter, I'll come help you."

Despite his efforts, including livestreaming patrols and attempting to thwart break-ins, Phoenix's reputation continues to decline. An incident at Cartender, where Phoenix claims to have prevented a break-in, is disputed by the store owner, casting further doubt on his credibility.

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Conflict with Other Real-Life Superheroes

As Phoenix Jones struggles with his image, other real-life superheroes like Red Ranger and Justin Service emerge to offer legitimate support during the protests. These heroes distance themselves from Phoenix, highlighting his tarnished reputation.

[39:12] Phoenix Jones: "Phoenix Jones."

[39:13] David Weinberg: "No, he's not a member of our organization."

The conflict culminates in a tragic incident on June 20, 2020, where Phoenix and his team arrive at the scene of a shooting in the Capitol Hill Occupied Protest (CHOP) zone. Despite their efforts, they fail to save 19-year-old Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr., leading to intense self-reflection and public criticism.

[42:38] David Weinberg: "We ended up losing a poor young man. You know, when we tried to save him, we didn't get the help we needed that night."

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Personal Insights and Character Flaws

Accompanying David Weinberg on patrols provides a candid look into Phoenix's personal life and character. Despite his heroic aspirations, Phoenix exhibits traits of arrogance, hypocrisy, and an inability to heed constructive criticism. Instances such as his dismissive attitude towards a radio host's critique and his contentious relationship with his girlfriend reveal a complex and flawed individual.

[56:08] Phoenix Jones: "I popped it in, the machine worked, and I was like, there, problem solved."

The episode highlights the dichotomy between Phoenix's public persona and his private demeanor, questioning the authenticity of his heroism.

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Legacy and Future of Real-Life Superheroes

In the concluding segments, Phoenix Jones's influence wanes as his actions become increasingly scrutinized and mocked. The episode ponders the future of real-life superheroes in Seattle, suggesting that Phoenix's downfall has cast a shadow over the movement. However, personal stories, such as Phoenix's son stopping a robbery, hint at the possibility of genuine heroism emerging despite the setbacks.

[68:52] Phoenix Jones: "He just straight kicked him straight in the face."

David Weinberg reflects on whether Phoenix's son might inherit his father's heroic traits, offering a glimmer of hope for the next generation.

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Conclusion

Episode 8 of "The Superhero Complex" presents a nuanced and critical examination of Phoenix Jones's journey from a celebrated real-life superhero to a controversial figure entangled in legal issues and public disdain. Through detailed storytelling, interviews, and personal anecdotes, the episode challenges listeners to reconsider the true essence of heroism and the complexities behind those who seek to embody it.

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Notable Quotes

• [08:23] Phoenix Jones: "It's been terrible. Been some of the worst times of my entire life."

• [16:15] David Weinberg: "Phoenix did plead guilty to two counts of conspiracy to commit violation of the Uniform Controlled Substances Act."

• [31:09] Phoenix Jones: "If you're injured and you need my help, give me a call. Hit me up on Twitter, I'll come help you."

• [39:12] Phoenix Jones: "Phoenix Jones."

• [42:38] David Weinberg: "We ended up losing a poor young man. You know, when we tried to save him, we didn't get the help we needed that night."

• [56:08] Phoenix Jones: "I popped it in, the machine worked, and I was like, there, problem solved."

• [68:52] Phoenix Jones: "He just straight kicked him straight in the face."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a compelling narrative on the blurred lines between heroism and vigilantism, illustrating how personal flaws and external pressures can undermine noble intentions. Phoenix Jones's story is a cautionary tale about the complexities of taking justice into one's own hands and the profound impact such actions can have on one's legacy and community perception.

Transcript

[Unknown Host]

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[Phoenix Jones]

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Novel.

[David Weinberg]

On January 6th of 2020 at 11:14pm, Ben Fodor got a text message from a number he didn't recognize. It was a single word.

[Phoenix Jones]

What's up?

[David Weinberg]

Ben replied with two question marks and the stranger responded with a confusing series of messages about the weather and a pair of missing glasses until they seemed to realize that they were texting the wrong person.

[Unknown Speaker]

Wait, shit is this Tommy?

[David Weinberg]

And then things got strange. Instead of the conversation ending, Ben asked the stranger what they were doing later that night and the stranger typed getting.

[Unknown Speaker]

High and watching Netflix. Lol. How about you?

[David Weinberg]

To which Ben replied, nice. We're gonna get high and go to the arcade. Wanna join? They continued chatting until late at night. The stranger eventually told Ben that her name was Laura. Ben told Laura that he and his girlfriend were polyamorous and suggested that they all and he sent Laura a photo of him and his girlfriend. Laura replied, don't get me wrong, you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Are both hot AF but I'm trying to make good decisions.

[David Weinberg]

But they kept texting over the next few days and eventually Laura agreed to meet up with Ben and his girlfriend Andrea at the Silver Cloud Hotel near downtown Seattle. Laura told Ben a few of her friends were in town visiting from Los Angeles. She'd been planning to pick up drugs for them, but her dealer stood her up. Ben offered to bring some to the hotel.

[Unknown Speaker]

That would make it even easier for pre party.

[David Weinberg]

Laura replied. Then on January 9th at 5:56pm, Ben texted Hey, so I was not able to get M, but I can get you C at 80 a G or a ball for 225. Laura replied, that's cool.

[Unknown Speaker]

We have money for a ball meaning.

[David Weinberg]

An eight ball or around 3.5 grams of cocaine. Four hours later, a Seattle Police Department detective held a meeting with members of her department, along with some agents from the Homeland Security Investigation Unit. They were preparing for a narcotic takedown operation. At 10:50pm Officers observed Ben Fodor and his girlfriend Andrea Berenston park an orange smart cart in front of the hotel and make their way into the lobby. According to court documents, Fodor had a shiny gold backpack and was carrying a blue tackle box. Andrea exited the south lobby door to smoke a cigarette. At that point, the police moved in and arrested Ben and Andrea. Back at the precinct, the officers searched Ben and Andrea's belongings. Inside the tackle box they found seven separate bundles of suspected cocaine weighing a total of four grams. They also found a scale covered in what looked like drug residue and another unknown white powder substance weighing 31.7 grams. Also inside the tackle box were two passports belonging to Ben and Andrea. There was of course, no Laura. It was a made up name by an undercover cop. This whole sting operation seems like a lot of work and it appeared to be a shift in Phoenix's relationship with the police. This time they seemed to be taking the initiative to come after him. Unlike in the past where they were reacting to his actions. According to Phoenix, he was under attack. In January of 2020, Phoenix was charged with two counts of violation of the Uniform Controlled Substances Act. And In March of 2021, he pled guilty to the lesser charges of conspiracy. The self proclaimed guardian of Seattle was no longer standing his ground against armed crack dealers. He was himself a convicted drug dealer. The world would never see him the same way again. I'm David Weinberg and From the teams at Novel and iHeartRadio, this is the final installment of the Superhero Complex, episode eight, the Hero We Deserve. By 2020, when Phoenix got busted, the Rain City superhero movement was a distant memory to most people in Seattle. Their 15 minutes of fame had long been up. And then came the news of Phoenix's arrest for selling drugs to undercover cops. Phoenix was back in the spotlight. How have you dealt with the public perception of you as a drug dealer?

[Phoenix Jones]

It's been terrible. Been some of the worst times of my entire life.

[David Weinberg]

Walk me through like how you've dealt with it.

[Phoenix Jones]

I mean, it's been really crazy, man. It's been really bad. So like after the indictment, everyone just turned their backs on me and said that I was doing all this crazy stuff. I had people spit on me on the streets. I went through a weird little suicidal phase for a second where I was feeling like I should just end everything. And then I came to the same conclusion I always come to, you know, fuck you guys.

[David Weinberg]

If you read the transcript of the text exchanges between the undercover cop and Phoenix, he does not come across as a drug dealer. He seems more like a guy who thinks he's about to have a threesome and is only bringing some drugs to the party as a favor. He does mention drugs, but it's the undercover officer who brings them up first. My takeaway from looking at the evidence provided by the Seattle Police Department is that in this instance with Laura, Phoenix looks a lot more like a middleman in a drug deal than some kind of big time dealer himself. But there's more to the story because this wasn't the first time Phoenix had been caught selling drugs to cops. On November 5, 2019, two months before his arrest at the Silver Cloud Hotel, Phoenix got a text from Mike. Mike was actually two undercover police officers. According to court documents, Mike and Phoenix texted back and forth for a few days and on November 20th, Mike texted Phoenix asking to buy some MDMA. The cops say Phoenix asked for payment up front and sent them his Venmo, which had a photo of him in profile. Also, fun fact, I learned from reading the court documents, Phoenix's Venmo username was Booty Sweatbaby. Anyway, Mike and Phoenix agree to meet at a Starbucks in the Wells Fargo building downtown. Around noon the next day, a team of officers met for a briefing. Officer Amy Bronham was running the bust and she showed everyone a picture of Phoenix. By 12:45, an officer pretending to be Mike along with four other undercover officers in plain clothes were stationed inside the coffee shop. Officer Bronham was also there, watching from outside. At 1pm, Phoenix rolled up dressed in a green tank top and jeans, carrying a brown paper bag. The whole exchange took less than a minute. Here's a condensed version of the police report. Phoenix is referred to by his last name, Fodor.

[Unknown Speaker]

Fodor and the undercover agent made eye contact with each other and the undercover agent gave him a head nod. Fodor walked towards the undercover agent. They shook hands and the undercover agent asked Fodor if he was Ben. He replied yes. The undercover agent handed Fodor $200 and Fodor accepted the money. He placed the brown paper bag that he was carrying on the table in front of the undercover agent. Fodor stated that it was all there and packaged into separate baggies. He told the undercover agent he could check it if he wanted to. The undercover agent declined and told Fodor that he trusted him. The undercover agent asked Fodor if he could hit him up next week if he needed more. Fodor said he could. Fodor exited the Starbucks and jogged northbound.

[David Weinberg]

The version of events laid out in the police report is a pretty straightforward drug deal, but according to Phoenix, the media weren't interested in his side of the story.

[Phoenix Jones]

I got indicted, and people would not take my interview to talk to them about my indictment. They didn't want to go into the gritty of what happened. They wanted to just basically slander my name. And they wrote all these articles that were inaccurate. They wanted to go with the fallen hero line, and that's what they wanted to go with.

[David Weinberg]

So if the story the rest of the world heard is all wrong, what is the real story?

[Phoenix Jones]

I think not holding my friends and people I hang out with to the same standards of accountability that I would hold myself to makes me guilty by association.

[David Weinberg]

In both the hotel and the Starbucks drug busts, Phoenix claims he was only facilitating other people's deals. He's basically saying he was nothing but a middleman in the MDMA bust. At the coffee shop, Phoenix says his friend was the dealer, not him. But Mike, the undercover cop, told this friend he'd only accept the drugs from Phoenix. So Phoenix agreed to deliver the drugs.

[Phoenix Jones]

And then he says, here's a hundred dollar tip for being here. Gave me a tip. I was like, sweet, took that money and then handed him the bag. And I left. Like, did I know it was in the bag, though? For sure, for sure. So am I still guilty? Definitely. But the person you texted, the person who showed up, the person who brought the drugs, the person who bought the drugs, all of that wasn't me.

[David Weinberg]

And as for the hotel bust, Phoenix says he was only near the drugs, not using or selling them.

[Phoenix Jones]

I wasn't on drugs the day they arrested us. I had no drugs in my system. They checked my fingerprints. My fingerprints were not anywhere on the drug paraphernalia. The drug paraphernalia wasn't found on me or near me, but did I know they had it for sure? Just facts?

[David Weinberg]

Sure.

[Phoenix Jones]

Like, yep. And that's a crime, which it is conspiracy.

[David Weinberg]

Now, there's a lot to unpack here, but let's start with the Starbucks bust. I have a very hard time believing Phoenix's version of the story. Here's why. Phoenix is a guy who believes that the Seattle police are out to get him. He knows he has to be perfect in everything he does because he thinks the police are chomping at the bit to arrest him. And then this drug dealer friend of his comes along and says, hey, I'm about to sell some drugs to this random guy at a Starbucks. But for some reason, he says he will only accept the drugs if you Deliver them. And Phoenix says, sure, no problem. I'm happy to help. This all seems totally normal. For Phoenix to agree to that, he would have to be incredibly stupid. And Phoenix may be many things, but stupid he is not. Also, who tips a drug dealer $100? Now, as for the hotel bust, that one is a lot more complicated. Again, Phoenix makes the claim that he was merely the middleman. And I do think that the text exchange seems like he isn't some drug kingpin. But if he didn't have anything to do with supplying the cocaine, why were his and his girlfriend's passports inside the tackle box with the drugs? I still can't make sense of that detail. And on the other hand, if the cops had such a clear cut case against him, why did Phoenix get off so easy? It seems odd to me that the police would put so much money and manpower into a sting operation to ultimately let him off with a slap on the wrist. Maybe it's proof of Phoenix's theory that their goal was simply to ruin his reputation by making his arrest public. Or maybe Phoenix's lawyer just did what lawyers do and got the charges reduced. Or maybe Phoenix snitched on his supplier in exchange for a lesser charge. Those all seem like plausible theories. What we do know for sure is that when the charges were first brought in January 2020, there was a count of cocaine possession with intent to distribute and one of feloniously delivering MDMA. But on March 22, 2021, they were dropped to conspiracy charges. And a conspiracy charge basically means that two or more people agree to commit a crime at some point in the future.

[Phoenix Jones]

I was with people who had drugs. I was aware that there were definitely drugs involved. And, you know, as far as a conspiracy goes, it's just knowing that someone was trying to do something illegal and not stopping them. And I'm definitely guilty of that. So, I mean, I believe in America. I believe in the Constitution. I'm gonna plead guilty because I'm guilty of that. But it's disingenuous the way that it was said.

[David Weinberg]

And Phoenix did plead guilty to two counts of conspiracy to commit violation of the Uniform Controlled Substances Act. One for the MDMA bust and one for the cocaine. He was sentenced to four days in jail, time served, and fined $500, plus an additional $100 for the DNA test. I feel like that detail gets lost in the media narrative, though. Like, no one cares about what the charge is. It's like, oh, you're a drug dealer, right?

[Phoenix Jones]

But they're not accusing me being a drug dealer. Right.

[David Weinberg]

But, like, what I'm saying is, like.

[Phoenix Jones]

I know that's the story is that I'm a drug dealer, but that's not what anyone's accusing me of. You know what I mean? How many days did you serve in jail? Zero. They said they wouldn't delete my charge, but if I pled guilty, which I had already done, they would give me zero days in jail. And in four years, they'll delete my felony, but they just want me to be guilty. Does that make sense? Like, if I'm a danger to society, why would you release me the day that you. I say that I'm guilty with no release conditions, there's literally nothing. But they wanted to give me, like, a felony tag.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix claims that the Seattle police deviated from their own policies in an effort to bring him down. So is what happened to Phoenix unusual for Seattle?

[Rich Smith]

We should probably start by saying that the Seattle Police Department is under a federal consent decree for their history of biased policing.

[David Weinberg]

This is Rich Smith, a journalist at the Stranger, a local paper in Seattle.

[Rich Smith]

The Seattle Police Department is a moribund institution that's overfunded. They spend a lot more of their time responding to nonviolent crimes than violent crimes. Lots of investment in new training strategies, new ways to get them to stop arresting black and brown people at higher rates than white people for the same crimes. There hasn't been a ton of progress on that bias. That's the reputation of the Seattle Police Department.

[David Weinberg]

The two main people in charge of prosecutions in Seattle at the time of Phoenix's arrest were. Were King County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg and Phoenix's old arch nemesis, former Seattle City Attorney Pete Holmes.

[Rich Smith]

Pete Holmes, progressive era. As a prosecutor, he came in swinging a big bat and just stopped prosecuting a lot of marijuana arrests.

[David Weinberg]

Pete Holmes covered misdemeanors, and Dan Satterberg was in charge of felonies. When Phoenix talked to me, he directed a lot of his anger at Pete Holmes, but it was actually Satterberg who was in charge of his case.

[Rich Smith]

He first started making reforms in the office related to drugs when he came on in 2008, where he reduced filing standards for people who are caught simply possessing a certain amount of drugs.

[David Weinberg]

So both prosecutors are viewed as being relatively liberal on drugs. But the Seattle police do have a track record of questionable sting operations. Pete Holmes and the SPD came under fire for sting operations they executed in massage parlors in an effort to catch people paying sex workers.

[Rich Smith]

Those stings were, at least among public defenders, considered pretty wasteful. Uses of city resources and pretty unsuccessful. A lot of the guys ended up getting off because of shoddy police work. They were pretty incompetently run.

[David Weinberg]

Examples like this lend credibility to Phoenix's claims that the Seattle police unnecessarily spent massive amounts of public money on his relatively small crime.

[Rich Smith]

If they're accusing him of being some kind of kingpin, then, you know, maybe some kind of sting operation would make sense like that. But would I put it past the Seattle Police Department? Not at all. Putting too many resources into a dubious sounding, let's say, case like this. Would cops lie or waste a bunch of time and resources going after a group or a person who was a thorn in their side? I would not be surprised in the least.

[David Weinberg]

Pete Holmes declined an interview and Dan Satterberg didn't respond to interview requests. The SPD also declined to put up a spokesperson. And the undercover officers we reached out to and former Seattle Police Chief Carmen Best, all declined to comment as well. We put all of Phoenix's allegations to the SPD in writing and asked them about why so much time and money was spent on an investigation that ultimately resulted in two minor drug $600 in fines and four days in jail. The Seattle Police Communications department responded that narcotics investigations routinely involve multiple officers and detectives, both for investigative and safety reasons, and are conducted over months and even years. In some cases, our department arrested Mr. Fodor for crimes he committed. Regardless of what is true, either that Phoenix is a small time coke and ecstasy dealer, or he simply has a soft spot for helping out his drug dealer friends and is the victim of an overzealous police force. At the end of the day, he got off with a very light punishment and he knew very well the risks he was taking when he agreed to get involved in illegal drugs. So I don't have a lot of sympathy for him.

[Phoenix Jones]

Everybody hates me already. I got spit out on the street yesterday. Someone called me a drug dealer spit on me on the street yesterday in regular ass life because you think I sold drugs for real. Well, I didn't. And I don't care what you fucking think. Like people don't like me. They've never liked me. That's not new. But we're gonna talk about me showing up with literally 3.4 grams of cocaine in a bag I am not touching while completely sober at a hotel, trying to meet a consistent dissenting adult to go play pinball. I mean, go Fuck yourself.

[David Weinberg]

By 2020, when Phoenix landed in trouble with the police, he really wasn't in the superhero game. Much at all. And now that most people in the city were convinced that he was nothing but a drug dealing hypocrite, it was starting to look like this was the end for Seattle's most famous costumed crime fighter. But the year 2020 was brought unprecedented changes to the entire world and in the midst of a global pandemic and a wave of social unrest in the streets, Phoenix would get his chance to rise from the ashes and don his mask one more time. That's coming up.

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[David Weinberg]

By May of 2020, Phoenix Jones had basically retired from being a superhero. No more shaky body cam videos. No more railing against the police like he had in the past. It looked as though Seattle police had finally convinced Phoenix to hang up his super suit and leave the crime fighting to the professionals. And then the world exploded. Waves of peaceful protests marched on, bigger than ever before. No more violence from Washington's newly named Black Lives Matter Plaza to Philadelphia turning violent in Portland, Oregon, where police clashed with protesters. The world had spent months being locked down, and then people in cities all across America and beyond erupted in protests and clashes with police after a white police officer, Derek Chauvin, murdered George Floyd, a black man, in Minneapolis. Rioters have taken over the shopping district in downtown Seattle.

[Unknown Speaker]

They've set fire to multiple police vehicles. They have broken into multiple businesses, including.

[David Weinberg]

Nordstrom and Old Navy, and are starting to loot. On May 29, four days after Floyd's death, protesters marched through Seattle and gathered at Hing Hay park in Seattle's International District to protest police brutality. Protesters laid down in the roads chanting George Floyd's name, George Floyd. The windows of a Ferrari dealership were smashed in and some demonstrators hurled fireworks. By May 30, the police were launching flashbangs, tear gas and pepper spray at the crowds. Mayor Jenny Durkin instated a 5pm to 5am curfew. This is a statewide emergency alert. The city of Seattle is asking all residents to immediately disperse from downtown. And then on May 31, Phoenix Jones resurfaced in his first tweet in over six months, he posted in all caps the following message. If you're in downtown Seattle and have been injured, need medical assistance or help evacuating. Tweet me. See you in the streets. Perhaps inevitably, someone replies that they need help getting some mdma. But although Phoenix's reputation had taken a dent, it seemed like he was serious about his comeback.

[Phoenix Jones]

This is Phoenix Jones. I wanted to make a couple things straight before I start my patrol today.

[David Weinberg]

Later that day, Phoenix livestreamed from a car decked out in his super suit. Though he changed up his look a bit. Instead of his rubber Batman style mask, he had on a helmet. He announced that he was heading into the fray. It was a full blown relaunch.

[Phoenix Jones]

If you're injured and you need my help, give me a call. Hit me up on Twitter, I'll come help you. Your building's on fire, you got something going on like that, you need help and you haven't called 911 already. Give me a buzz, I'll come put out that fire.

[David Weinberg]

He posts more videos that day and the next.

[Phoenix Jones]

Hey guys, this is Phoenix Jones making sure everybody stays safe, doing medical attention, keeping everybody good.

[David Weinberg]

He livestreams himself striding down the streets of Seattle carrying a fire extinguisher and he claims he stopped to break in.

[Phoenix Jones]

I saw some people breaking into a Bartels so I stopped them from breaking into the Bartels as much as I could. Otherwise, you know, the vandalism will just continue.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix is back. Meanwhile, the protests are escalating. By June 6, the police are firing blast balls into crowds of demonstrators. On June 7, a man drives a car into protests at Capitol Hill and shoots a protester in the arm. The Seattle police use so much tear gas against protesters that people in the neighborhood say it's seeping into their homes. And then comes June 8th.

[Unknown Host]

We have to stand together and be one family for all of us.

[David Weinberg]

The birth of the chop or chaz the push to defund and reform the Seattle Police Department and the Black Lives Matter movement is how six city blocks have been transformed now.

[Phoenix Jones]

Called chop, officers retreated from the area to de escalate the tension, effectively abandoning their station. Protesters say they won't be intimidated by.

[David Weinberg]

Threats and say they plan to stay.

[Phoenix Jones]

As long as it takes to bring about change.

[David Weinberg]

It started when the police boarded up the east precinct and vacated the property following clashes with protesters. So the protesters rearranged the barricades and established a six block area that included Cal Anderson Park, a seven acre green space in Capitol Hill protesters pitched tents and dug out community gardens in the park. They called it the chop, an acronym that stands for Capitol Hill Occupied Protest. Though some prefer the name Chaz, Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone. And depending on which news outlets you believe, the Chaz was either a giant block party and safe space for protesters and community activists to organize, or it's an anarchist stronghold full of criminals and delusional hippies. One of the more fascinating things about the Chaz for the purposes of this story, is that the Chaz unintentionally became perhaps the largest test case for the work of real life superheroes because cops were not allowed into the Chaz, though I suspect the place was crawling with plainclothes officers. But you know, who was allowed to patrol this newly founded urban experiment?

[Phoenix Jones]

Hey, guys, this is Phoenix Jones. You want to day patrol of Capitol Hill in downtown. Always back.

[David Weinberg]

You guessed it, Phoenix Jones. On June 12, four days after the birth of the Chaz, Phoenix makes his comeback official in a tweet in all caps, of course, he proclaims, I'm out of retirement. Streets need me. Seattle, hold it together. I'm on my way. Two days later, on Sunday, June 14, he's back live streaming from the Chaz. He starts to film what he says is going to be an interview with some of the Chaz organizers.

[Phoenix Jones]

Hey, guys, what's up? Live inside the Chaz Zone. Obviously, I'm just trying to find one of the other people that we're speaking with. So I should be right back on in the next five or so minutes.

[David Weinberg]

But as the night wears on, things take a turn.

[Phoenix Jones]

So sorry about that. We're in the middle of trying to give an interview, and right in the process of giving this interview, we hear this person say that there's a guy with a gun breaking into a place on 12th Avenue. So we take off towards 12th, and we get there, and they have the suspect behind a car.

[David Weinberg]

There's a gathering of people outside an auto repair shop called Cartender, where Phoenix says he thwarted an attempted break in.

[Phoenix Jones]

I took off on foot around the corner, jumped over the fence, and went into the actual building itself to make sure he didn't have any, you know, backup or friends inside. No one was in the building. I was able to locate the box that had all the keys that he was planning to steal to come back and steal the cars that were in the parking lot. So I was able to get the key, return the key to the owner, and then I hid in the parking lot while the mob decided to yell that I Fucking suck.

[David Weinberg]

According to Phoenix, the crowd that has gathered is demanding that the owner of the business let the suspected thief go free.

[Phoenix Jones]

I'm out here, we're at the place, there's probably 150 people. I'm going to stop them from getting violence and this is going to get shitty. So I'll see you in the streets.

[David Weinberg]

Something clearly went down at the Cartender, but from the videos that Phoenix posted, it's not clear what he was up to. We spoke to the owner of the store to get their account of what happened, and he said that Phoenix didn't jump the fence or save the car keys. He actually doesn't remember Phoenix being there at all. Anyway, despite the negative reaction that Phoenix says he received, he wasn't deterred. In fact, his ambitions seemed to be getting bolder. That same night, he posts a picture of Batman with the caption, let's try and find a middle ground. And I'm bringing great ideas and solutions to this problem. And the next day, Monday, June 15, he gets interviewed on local radio by Jason Rantz.

[Phoenix Jones]

Over the course of the last couple days, it sounds like you have this goal of trying to bring people, take.

[David Weinberg]

Us through how that's gone so far.

[Phoenix Jones]

Well, I mean, that's funny. Like the last couple days, my goal has not been to bring people together. My goal has been to bring people together my entire life. Yeah.

[David Weinberg]

In spite of his recent run in with the spd, Phoenix expresses his frustration at what he sees as their lack of policing.

[Phoenix Jones]

It's been incredibly challenging because the Black Lives Matter movement is like a blanket word, right? Black Lives Matter. Obviously everyone agrees with that, but there's a lot of other stuff in there that's kind of weird. And then there's the antifa angle and all these other different things, but no matter what that is, taking over six city blocks is just illegal. And when the police decide to not respond to 911 calls in that area, that is like, shame on you.

[David Weinberg]

And then in one of the craziest turn of events in the Phoenix Jones storyline, Phoenix shows up in the Chaz that same night claiming that the Seattle Police Department have contacted him and basically asked him to be a negotiator on their behalf. With the people leading the protests, the response on social media is swift.

[Unknown Speaker]

How long has he been out of jail for? This shit is excruciatingly hilarious.

[Phoenix Jones]

I thought he hung up the tights. This just keeps getting weirder.

[Unknown Speaker]

If Seattle police actually set up Phoenix.

[David Weinberg]

Jones to do this, I will fall.

[Unknown Speaker]

Over dead from laughter. And I hope you will attend my funeral. He's a joke. And a wannabe cop.

[Phoenix Jones]

Isn't his superpower. Selling ecstasy.

[David Weinberg]

It wasn't quite the glorious comeback Phoenix had hoped for. But while he was busy playing the Seattle police department's unofficial mediator, a few streets away, another band of superheroes had arrived to answer the call of their city in need.

[Unknown Speaker]

When are you guys out here?

[David Weinberg]

Where are the Seattle superheroes? We're out here making sure everybody stays safe.

[Unknown Speaker]

We're here rendering aid or evacuating people who need it.

Thank you guys.

[David Weinberg]

Thank you so much. Stay safe, ok? You too, guys. Red Ranger and Justin Service, who we met in the previous episode, were also hard at work in the Chaz with their team Echo, the Emerald City heroes organization. They were trying to represent a different kind of real life superheroing. You're welcome, but please get to safety, okay? Of course, guys. Gotta stay safe, okay? We're doing our best. Please get to safety, all right? They were supportive of the protests and said they wanted to be on hand to help anyone who needed assistance. But in addition to tear gas and flashbangs, Red Ranger and the Echo crew also had to contend with a few fact that Seattle's superhero movement had sustained some serious reputational damage.

[Phoenix Jones]

Phoenix Jones.

[David Weinberg]

No, he's not a member of our organization. He's not.

[Phoenix Jones]

No, no.

[David Weinberg]

No association.

[Phoenix Jones]

No, no. I can tell you want to make that very clear.

[David Weinberg]

There's no association. He's not on our team. Phoenix has always said that one of the main reasons he created his superhero Persona was to inspire others to take on injustice in the world and to stand up for those in need. But by 2020, the character he'd created became a punchline. A symbol of hypocrisy and absurdity above all else. And as the most famous member of the community, his fall from grace cast a shadow over the whole real life superhero universe. While on patrol, Red Ranger and Justin Service repeatedly distanced themselves from Phoenix. Phoenix Jones is another. Not really. Not Amor. He's in a bad business. What's his business?

[Phoenix Jones]

What's.

[David Weinberg]

Oh, what's the business?

[Unknown Speaker]

We've had so we had some.

[David Weinberg]

He's committed criminal activities. I'm not going to get into it, but yeah, he's not a good example. At one point, they walked past a poster of Phoenix that said Officer Jones pepper spraying a neighborhood near you.

[Unknown Host]

Holy shit.

[David Weinberg]

Take a picture of that. I can't, I can't. Oh, no worries. I got a. Get this. Holy crap. All through June of 2020, clashes between the police and protesters continued and then on Saturday, June 20, all hell broke loose and the Seattle superheroes had to step into a deadly situation where the police were nowhere to be found until it was too late. Go, go. Around midnight, Justin Service and Red Ranger started their patrol of the Chaz. Red Ranger, who's a registered nurse, had been giving medical care to folks and trying to de escalate some arguments. There was a group of people setting off fireworks, but then around 2:20am they heard gunfire. Guys, get back, get back, get back. Phoenix was also in the area. At just after 3am he tweeted bullets and chaos. I'm in chop. Stay away scene confusing. Shooter on the loose. Red Ranger and Justin Service ran toward the sound of the gunfire and arrived on the scene of the shooting. It was total chaos and laying on the ground was 19 year old Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr. We gotta help him. He's on the truck. He'd been shot. We gotta help him.

[Unknown Speaker]

Come on, everybody.

[Phoenix Jones]

Back here, back here.

[David Weinberg]

Come with me. We were doing CPR and trying to provide medical intervention with the volunteer medics that were on scene and we were calling for an ambulance. Well, the ambulance wouldn't come in because they can't come in until the police clear the scene. Hey guys, watch out so we can get out of here. Drive the car. Go. The police claim that it was the protesters who prevented law enforcement from entering the Chaz. But based on reporting by KUOW's Ashley Hiruko, who reviewed videos from that night along with 911 dispatch recordings and eyewitness testimony, it was not the protesters that caused the delay, but miscommunication between the Seattle fire and police departments. Everybody get back, get back, get back. Someone was shot. Get back. Get back. Someone was shot. We ended up losing a poor young man. You know, when we tried to save him, we didn't get the help we needed that night. And I wish we had. There's a lot of factors that went into that. But it's still a regret that that.

[Phoenix Jones]

Young man lost his life.

[David Weinberg]

Everybody get to safety. Holy crap. Horace Lorenzo Anderson's father currently has an active lawsuit for wrongful death filed against the city of Seattle. Meanwhile, Phoenix had apparently left the scene. He tweeted that he hadn't been able to get a description of the shooter. And I get the sense that he was reaching a breaking point. Later that same night, in the early hours of Saturday morning, he goes on to tweet. Too much. Too damn much. We need to do something now. People are dying and my fucking city is under attack. I arrive on the scene after the shooting directed via Twitter. No police chaos, People grabbing the evidence and moving things. I had no description of the shooter and medical was already there. I was drawing attention and with an active shooter, I had to evac. I have no idea how to combat this threat of real life ending magnitude and at the same time protect people's right to protest. I am so angry. Why are the mayor, governor and police standing outside an imaginary border when citizens of Seattle are fucking dying? Then a long series of A's and H's. Ah. If the brief moment in time when the chads existed was a test case for letting superheroes stand in for cops in emergency situations, it did not go well for the superheroes. They'd failed in their mission to intercede in those moments before a crime takes place. And when things did go horribly wrong, they weren't able to prevent the death of Horace Lorenzo Anderson or catch the person who killed him. And at the end of the day, it is Phoenix himself who is angrily demanding that the police show up and do something to protect the people because he and his fellow superheroes have failed. In the days that followed, he then got into a Twitter beef with an account claiming to be the official Chaz account. It posted that Phoenix was banned from the Chaz and that the Chaz solidarity community had issued orders for security to deny access to the Chaz to all members of superhero movements attempting to enter the area. Whether the account was really representing Chaz organizers is contested, but Phoenix took it as the truth and railed against them. In another all caps tweet, he said, I do not respect your imaginary borders. Citizens are dying. Grow up. I'll see you tonight in the streets. Jones out. Finally, on Wednesday, July 1, the city moved in and started dismantling the Chaz barricades. Protests and conversations about police, abolition and reform would continue. But one thing seemed clearer than ever. In the city of Seattle, there seemed to be very little appetite for our masked adventurer, Phoenix Jones. His triumphant return only seemed to make him more enemies in the hometown he'd sworn to protect. But even then, Phoenix Jones would not be deterred. He'd continue to take to the streets in search of crimes to thwart. And soon, at long last, I'd be going with him. That's coming up.

[Unknown Speaker]

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[Unknown Host]

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[David Weinberg]

By 2021, Phoenix Jones had become a running joke in Seattle. His superhero squad was a distant memory. He pled guilty to two drug conspiracy charges and his relaunch at the Chaz had been a flop. At this point, most people would probably decide to give up on the whole real life superhero thing. But Phoenix Jones isn't most people. When I visited Phoenix in Seattle in 2021, he agreed to take me on one of his patrols so I could see firsthand how he fights crime these days. I am here to pick up Phoenix Jones at his apartment. It is 1am on December 21, about to go out on patrol. I actually ended up going on three different patrols with Phoenix. And every single time we had to use my rental car because Phoenix was having various car troubles on one of those patrols. The plan had been to begin the night by doing a homeless handout, which surprised me given Phoenix's past disdain for this type of superhero work. But in the end, it never happened because Phoenix claimed his car got broken into and someone stole all the stuff we were going to give out. So we had to go with plan B. Yeah, what's the plan for tonight?

[Phoenix Jones]

So we're going to Capitol Hill. We're gonna check that out and see if we have people on foot walking around. Then if Capitol Hill's lame, we're Gonna check out 2nd and 3rd and pike area. We're gonna get up and walk around there a little bit.

[David Weinberg]

We never ended up getting out of the car that night. Phoenix was dressed in superhero casual. He wasn't wearing his full suit super suit, just the molded breastplate with the gold chevron and a black leather trench coat and helmet.

[Phoenix Jones]

Still bulletproof. I've still got all my stuff on. I'm a little less knife resistant, but good stuff down. We can still go fight crime.

[David Weinberg]

The stakes were very high for Phoenix. He told me because he's on probation, there can't be any slip ups, pepper spray related or otherwise, because if he gets into any trouble, he says he will go straight to prison for two years.

[Phoenix Jones]

You're a journalist, right? So if we, if we stop and we stop a crime and it goes badly.

[David Weinberg]

Right.

[Phoenix Jones]

They're not gonna arrest you. There's no legal ramifications for you. But me, I'm on probation. I've been asked to stop several different times. It's like every time I come out, my entire life could possibly be on the line.

[David Weinberg]

With Phoenix behind the wheel, we made our way through the darkened streets of the city, keeping our eyes peeled for signs of trouble.

[Phoenix Jones]

When you start, like, a patrol, I'll, like, drive around and sort of feel it out, and I'll hit a spot that, like, feels like this could be that spot, you know what I mean?

[David Weinberg]

But we weren't having much luck finding any crime. What percentage of patrols would you say you end up stopping a crime?

[Phoenix Jones]

So I would say this. I, on average probably stop about two crimes a week or do a citizen's help, like where I do something that's like above a kelping, right? But it's not always stopping a crime and it's not always on patrol, right? Like today I fixed that tire for that person dressed up super suited up. Phoenix Jones is up, right? But it didn't have anything to do with patrol, right?

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix told me the reason he was late to tonight's patrol was because he and his son had pulled over to help a stranded motorist. Apparently, he'd been wearing part of his super suit and his son had worn a Batman mask. Phoenix had lots of stories like this. He told me that the day before, he'd had another heroic encounter. This time he'd saved his neighbor's life.

[Phoenix Jones]

One of my neighbors overdosed on drugs, had a reaction, and ended up having to do cpr.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix's need to help people impacts every part of his life, even things like mundane trips to the grocery store.

[Phoenix Jones]

I went to the check in scan, and I was trying to do scan, thinking this thing would not scan my stuff.

[David Weinberg]

Now us civilians would probably just head over to another register. But for Phoenix, this was his time to shine. He told me that when the checkout clerk didn't know how to fix the scanner, he got down on his hands and knees to find the problem. He even called up the manufacturer himself to get the reset code for the machine.

[Phoenix Jones]

I popped it in, the machine worked, and I was like, there, problem solved. I'm like, now you know how to do it next time.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix said his girlfriend, who was with him at the time, did not swoon or look into his eyes and say, oh, Phoenix, you're my hero. She was more like, can we just get the hell out of here and get on with our day?

[Phoenix Jones]

I'm like, well, what would you prefer me to do? You know? She's like, well, I guess I'd prefer you just go to another machine. I'm like, okay, so what besides obfuscate my responsibility to help my people, what other than that would you like me to do?

[David Weinberg]

I can see how it would be hard to be with someone like Phoenix, who seems to be addicted to being the hero.

[Phoenix Jones]

I think people love uncompromising characters, right? And just because I'm an uncompromising character, people are drawn to that. But if they really understood what that entails, I don't think they would like it very much. You know what I mean?

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix is well aware that fighting crime can damage his personal relationships. But in another of our interviews, he told me he couldn't quit even if he wanted to.

[Phoenix Jones]

I think I have a compulsion to do the things that I believe in. And I don't care about cost. Whatever makes me stop bad guys, it's a compulsion I cannot fight. I don't know what it is. I can't put my finger on it, but it's a compulsion that could cost me everything that I could not stop doing.

[David Weinberg]

I think that compulsion was one of the things that made Phoenix as successful and as famous as he was at his peak. But alongside that compulsion to take down bad guys is Phoenix's compulsion to be better than everyone around him. Him. And I think his intense competitiveness and his ego made it impossible for him to live up to his own ideals of what a superhero is. And even though I believe his heart is in the right place, there were moments when I was with Phoenix where I came away thinking, this guy is just an asshole. One of those moments happened after we'd finished up a patrol and I had to give Phoenix a ride to go pick up a car he was borrowing.

[Phoenix Jones]

Sorry about this. Going around in circles.

[David Weinberg]

That's all right.

[Phoenix Jones]

It's definitely not my fault. Hello? All right, cool. I have to be on the right street, but the address you gave me does not take me here. Oh, frustration.

[David Weinberg]

Coincidentally, the person he was borrowing the car from was his neighbor. The one whose life he said he had saved from a drug overdose. Anyway, this guy had texted Phoenix the address where we were supposed to meet him, but the guy was drunk and sent the wrong address. This was around three in the morning. And when we got to where we were supposed to meet him, he was nowhere to be found. So Phoenix started honking the car horn so his friend could hear where we were and come find us. Unfortunately, the batteries in my recorder had just died and I was in the process of replacing them when this sonically rich moment happened. We were parked right outside of an apartment and I called Phoenix out for what I thought was an asshole thing to do. I remember saying, there are people all around us trying to sleep and blasting your horn outside their window at 3am is a dickhead move. By the time I was able to start recording again, Phoenix was in the middle of defending himself, so I don't.

[Phoenix Jones]

Know why that's not chill. Like even when it's explained to me, it still doesn't, it still doesn't like change my mind on it. It just makes me think like, well, if you don't like porn honking, you shouldn't live in right next to a road like that.

[David Weinberg]

No one will ever convince me that honking your horn outside someone's home at 3am so you can find your drunk friend is an acceptable thing to do. But instead of Phoenix admitting that it's a dickhead move, he blamed the people sleeping inside their homes. It's not like this is a grave injustice or anything, but I think Phoenix's attitude about it says a lot about who he is. The thing I find so infuriating about Phoenix is that he claims to be out here on the streets because he wants to serve and protect the citizens of his city. Unless he needs to find a drunk friend at 3am in which case, fuck those people. They should go find another street to live on. I think his willingness to to disrupt these people's lives while also claiming to care so much about them that he puts his life in danger for them is hypocrisy. And this is just one small example of many in which I believe Phoenix is a hypocrite. That's the thing that bothers me the most about Phoenix. I don't think there's anything morally wrong with using drugs. So I don't really care whether or not Phoenix does drugs. And I personally believe all drugs should be decriminalized and treated as a public health issue, not a criminal one. So I don't have a problem with Phoenix's small time coke and ecstasy deals on their own. The thing I dislike about Phoenix is that he acts like he's better than everyone. That he claims to live up to a higher moral code than everyone around him, which I think is total bullshit. I do think he does more than most to help the people in his community, and I think he deserves credit for that. But I found so many instances where he lied to me that it makes it hard to believe his endless tales of heroic deeds. Though. There was this one moment when we were out on patrol and we came across a concrete piece of evidence of at least one time when Phoenix really was the kind of superhero you read about in comic books. We were doing a U turn at an intersection when our headlights illuminated a mural on the side of a fence. There in bright colors, was a painting of Phoenix Jones and his full super suited glory.

[Phoenix Jones]

There I am. Oh yeah, yeah, it's purple over there getting pushed on the swing by me right there. Yeah, it's random.

[David Weinberg]

In the mural, Phoenix is pushing his ex girlfriend Purple Rain on a swing. They're painted to look like kids. Behind the mural was a playground. The building used to be a daycare. Phoenix had told me the story of the mural during one of our interviews.

[Phoenix Jones]

I stopped the building from catching on fire. I smashed in the building and I put the fire out when the building was burning where the children's daycare is. And they're like, oh, look at this cool mural of these little kids. No, that mural is there because that building is there because I'm here. Like, you can't forget what we did. Even Midnight Jack, Even El Caballero. Cause that guy, Midnight Jack was cool enough to go run back to the car and bring me back the fire extinguisher. So I only had to stomp out one floor of fires. He did that. It was real. So thanks, Jack. I dedicated a decade of my life to doing dangerous real life shit.

[David Weinberg]

As we sat there staring at the mural in the headlights, Phoenix was feeling reflective and seemed genuinely sad that more people didn't talk about these moments in his life when he was a real hero rather than focusing on his fall from grace.

[Phoenix Jones]

I really did not think that my life would turn out this way. You know what I mean? Like, if I could have redrawn it. It's not quite what I had in my mind.

[David Weinberg]

What did you have in your mind?

[Phoenix Jones]

I mean, I have one drug charge, but I mean, like nothing of any consequence. Right. I imagined that people would talk about my work. It's shocking that people talk. It makes me almost feel less.

[David Weinberg]

I feel like your work is too unconventional for people to wrap their heads around it, you know?

[Phoenix Jones]

I don't know what's unconventional about helping people.

[David Weinberg]

Like, it's helping people is one thing, but putting on a superhero costume and calling yourself a real life superhero is a totally different thing.

[Phoenix Jones]

Agreed, but it's still the same. The superhero outfit doesn't change the work.

[David Weinberg]

At the end of the patrol that night, Phoenix apologized for not finding any crimes to thwart.

[Phoenix Jones]

Sorry, we didn't find any crime. It's some random conversations.

[David Weinberg]

Yeah, we never did come across any crime during any of the patrols that he took me on. We also didn't help anyone. We didn't administer any first aid or hand out any food or socks or water like Justin's service and Red Ranger had done on their patrol.

[Phoenix Jones]

Even if you can't make it, I'm.

[David Weinberg]

Yeah, yeah, that sounds good, man. I said goodnight to Phoenix, and I assumed it was the last time I'd ever seen. This was my last reporting trip to Seattle, and I was heading back home to Los Angeles in a couple days. And we had no plans to meet up again. All right, signing off. But then a funny thing happened. When I got back to my hotel, I noticed that Phoenix had left his helmet on the back seat of my car. So I texted him and he said he would stop by the next day to pick it up. Just before the sun came up, I got another text from Phoenix. It said, 3, 2, 1. Then another text that said, 3 minus 2 equals 1. It was one of his number codes, the kind he told me he sends to his friends to let them know he's thinking about them. The next day, Phoenix came over to my hotel. He was parked on the street outside. I came out and opened the passenger side door of his car. Car and handed him the helmet. And then I looked down and saw it, plain as day, just sitting there in the armrest of the car door. A small bag of drugs. At least I assume it was drugs. It wasn't much. Just a bit of white powder inside one of those tiny Ziploc bags, the kind only drugs come in. I held it up and I looked at Phoenix and said, you should be careful with this stuff. It's illegal and you're on felony probation. He seemed very surprised and laughed nervously. Then he took the bag from me, threw it out the window and drove off. And that was the last time I ever saw Phoenix Jones. Now, the thing is, it wasn't Phoenix's car. He was borrowing it from his neighbor. So there's a good chance that Phoenix had no idea it was there. But that probably wouldn't have mattered to the police. After I got back from that last trip to Seattle, I looked into what Phoenix had said about his probation, and I wasn't able to verify if it was true. According to the court documents, the sentence he received did not include community custody. And the King County Community Corrections Division said he isn't under their supervision for the 2020 charges. But whatever the terms of his release are, if Phoenix got pulled over and the cops found drugs in the car he was driving, I don't think the outcome would be good. At the end of the day, I do think that Phoenix is a liar. And maybe he conned a few of his supporters and friends out of some cash. We have yet to see the super suit that Phoenix Said he would build after reportedly collecting over $3,000 on GoFundMe. And sure, the guy is super arrogant, admittedly uncompromising, and also a total hypocrite. But there is no part of me that thinks he should be in jail. I do believe there's a good chance that he might slip up and end up serving time, largely because his personal life seems so out of control. In one of our interviews, he was telling me about the court mandated therapy sessions that he goes to. Do you feel like you've gotten anything out of therapy?

[Phoenix Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've learned what is wrong with other people a lot.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix told me that his therapist had her own theory about why Phoenix has so many struggles in his life.

[Phoenix Jones]

You feel like you're out of control of your world because your family got rid of you. Maybe. But my family did get rid of me. That's a real thing. And if I feel out of control, maybe you should talk to those motherfuckers who put kids on a doorstep, not talk to the kid who makes sure other kids don't end up on a doorstep. That ain't a problem to me. There's no logic gap for me there. You're not going to convince me into feeling better. I'll never feel better, ever. And I don't want to.

[David Weinberg]

It's almost as if underneath his super suit, Phoenix has this protective layer, this reflexive attitude that surfaces anytime someone challenges him. I'll leave it to Phoenix and his therapist to figure out why Phoenix feels this need to be above reproach. I do hope he works it out. I think it would do him some good to listen to criticism and think honestly about how his actions affect other people. I think that would make him better at crime fighting and improve his personal relationships. And I know that's not just an important thing for Phoenix himself because he's also a parent. Which brings me to one last story that I'd like to tell you before I bid farewell. It's a story that Phoenix told me about his 12 year old son. He was at the park one day after school just hanging out with some friends and he noticed a suspicious looking guy standing outside a liquor store holding a knife. The guy went into the liquor store and Phoenix's son walked over and peered into the store through the glass door and saw this guy rob. The woman working behind the register, she's.

[Phoenix Jones]

An old middle Eastern lady, she's like 70, has a mobility scooter. She's like defenseless. My son's like, I don't think so. So he goes over the store, he waits by the door, and the door slides both ways open, right? I love his ingenuity. So he pulls the door this way so it's opening towards the front, right? And when the guy tries to run out of the store, he just bang. You hit the dude straight in the face with the door. The alcohol goes down, the knife flops out of his hand. My son chases this guy and now he's got no knife, and he turns around to face off with my son. My son just straight kicked him straight in the face.

[David Weinberg]

Shortly after the police arrived on the.

[Phoenix Jones]

Scene, a cops show up and he's just karate kicked this dude down the hill. And then the girl in the store said that, you know, he'd hit him with the door and to crack the glass of the door of the store. So the police were saying that they were going to charge him with breaking the glass. And the woman was like, absolutely not. That guy had a knife when he came into my store.

[David Weinberg]

The store clerk convinced the police not to charge Phoenix's son with a crime for breaking the door. And instead, Phoenix says the cops gave his son a token of their appreciation for his act of civilian heroism.

[Phoenix Jones]

The police gave him this, like, little crime stopping pendant. It's really cool. I'll show it to you, I'll pull it up. It's really cool. And it was his first crime he'd ever stop, you know.

[David Weinberg]

At the time, the cops didn't know it was Phoenix's son.

[Phoenix Jones]

They came by the house to give him the little pendant and talk to him about it, you know, and when they came by the house, I was there and the cop was like, oh, man. He's like, I don't know what my boss is going to think of this.

[David Weinberg]

Phoenix says the police told his son he could keep the award, but that he had to keep it a secret.

[Phoenix Jones]

There was a definite conversation between the police and my attorney because they in no way endorsed my behavior, which is hilarious because they endorse my behavior entirely, right? Because my son used every skill I've ever taught him. It's not that he fought crime. It's that he recognized the same thing that I recognized and put that responsibility on himself. He's not the kind of person that sees a problem and goes, oh, well, that's for somebody else. Or that person's not my person. Like, he sees something, takes responsibility for it and fixes it. That's what I love about it. It's not that he stopped the crime. It's that he did it. For someone else. Does that make sense?

[David Weinberg]

Totally.

[Phoenix Jones]

Totally, yeah.

[David Weinberg]

Would you want him to have the life that you do?

[Phoenix Jones]

No, I would never want anyone to have a life I have.

[David Weinberg]

Was this the origin story of Seattle's next great real life superhero? Would this 12 year old boy follow in his father's footsteps and grow up to become a masked adventurer, a defender of the innocent and protector of the downtrodden? Maybe he would even be better at it than his father because he'd had loving parents who looked after him and was not burdened by the baggage of being abandoned as a child. Maybe he would build his own super suit and find some like minded friends and spend years training for a righteous goal. Maybe he would become the hero that Seattle deserves. Or maybe this is just another made up story like the kind you'd read in a comic book. The superhero complex is hosted and written by me, David Weinberg and reported by me, Amalia Sortland and Caroline Thornham Production from Amalia Sortland and Caroline Thornham Sean Glenn, Max o' Brien and David Waters are executive producers. Fact checking by Andrew Schwartz Production management from Cherie Houston, Frankie Taylor and Charlotte Wolf Sound design, mixing and skill scoring by Nicholas Alexander and Daniel Kempson. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander and David Waters. Original music is composed by Paul Housden. Special thanks to Peter Tangen, Willard Foxton, Matt o', Meara, Katrina Norvell, Beth Ann Macaluso, Oren Rosenbaum, Shelby Shenkman and all the team at uta. For more from Novel, visit Novel Audio.

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[Phoenix Jones]

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[David Weinberg]

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