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- [00:00]
Tai Lopez
Sigmund Freud said, be careful with people who seem too virtuous on the outside because they're more most likely to have demons on the inside.
- [00:11]
Roy Lee
And eventually they just kick me out of school.
- [00:12]
Tai Lopez
Three months after you're kicked out, you've got a company that VCs value at over 100 million, and they wire you 15 million bucks. ChatGPT is estimated to have 1100 IQ right now.
- [00:23]
Roy Lee
And the only thing that we're lacking is the ability for AI to remember longer than five minutes of context.
- [00:29]
Tai Lopez
Will AI create more billionaires than ever or eliminate them? You won't make big money. You got two choices here in my garage. Welcome, everybody, to the Tai Lopez Show. Got a fascinating guest, Roy Lee from Clulee. Now, you may not have heard of him, but you probably have because he's a growth hacker genius and one of the fastest people to building a company valued over 100 million that's only three months old. That's nuts. That does not happen a lot. So thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. We're going to talk on AI. We're going to talk about making money. We're talking about what Clulee does and the future of AI in general. So let me ask you this question. If AI dominates, do humans become like the pets of AI Just like we have dogs that are less intelligent than us and they're like our pets?
- [01:33]
Roy Lee
I think it depends on what you train the AI on. There's this thought experiment called the paperclip experiment, and essentially it says that if you have an AI and its only objective is to make as many paperclips as possible, it will start by making these paperclip factories, and it'll make a bunch of factories and then realize, like, hey, we have too many blacksmiths out there, we have too many data analysts out there, and we need to make more paperclips. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to automate their jobs and to make more paperclips. Now, I'm smart enough to make my own models, and these models are all going to be trained to make more paperclips. Eventually. You have this infinitely growing model that all it wants to do is make paperclips, and eventually it will come to realize one day, hey, these humans are really inefficient at making paperclips. I'm just going to kill all of them and make more paperclips. And that's the reason why having a proper objective function for AI is so Important. Now, imagine your objective function for the AI Is just help humans. If that's the case, then you can imagine that this AI Will one day realize that in order for humans to be most helped, I should one day just, like, sort of take a back seat and help them only when they need. And if you have a correct objective function, like a correct goal for the AI and the goal is to be helpful to humans, then the AI Will, like, you, will be able to live a much better life. And the only difference between that AI and the AI that kills everybody is a correct objective function, which is why AI Safety is probably the most important thing in the world.
- [02:45]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, but here's the devil's advocate. Let's say we put the correct safety on AI I read a story. Nobody knows if it's true, but supposedly a military general in the U. S. Military said they sent out us. They did a simulation. It wasn't real, but it was with AI in the simulation, a drone went out from the base, and they told it to drop a bomb on a target. Halfway out. They said, we made a mistake, Mr. AI drone. That's not a bad guy. Come back. The AI said, no, I want to complete my mission. Refuse to come back. The general said, I'm the general. I command you to turn around and come back. So the AI Said, okay, turned around and came back to the base and dropped the missile on the general's head. So AI Gets smart enough, it'll be like, let's turn off this safety. Let's turn off this thing. I think it's going to be a crazy road ahead. We'll see. Yeah, yeah. Do you have safety in place for Cluli?
- [03:54]
Roy Lee
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, like, a lot of restrictions right now on what Cluly can and can't do. We don't want to build something that just, like, you know, is just like a completely evil AI Right. Yeah. I think it's like. It's like, if you're building anything in AI Your goal should be keep it as safe as possible.
- [04:09]
Tai Lopez
Now, Yuri Cluley, for people who don't know, started out, like, kind of what it went viral for is how to cheat on anything. Like somebody in college. You're on a job interview, they're interviewing you. On zoom, you pull clulee up. Correct. It's asking you, like, hard questions. You know, what's the hypotenuse of a triangle? You're like, what's. What's. You know, Bill Gates used to ask a question to figure out who's Smart. Tell guesstimate how much water is running through the mouth of the Mississippi river in August anyway. And he would just watch you. He'd have you sit. So if you had Cluley, you could just. If you were on Zoom, since nothing's in person anymore, you could just sit there and be like, Mr. Bill Gates, think on this secretly. Or, like, looking off to the side. Yeah, I'm Gonna guess about 400,343,000. And he'll be like, oh, my God, you're a genius. Was that kind of. What was the inspiration for Clulee? Cheat on anything?
- [05:09]
Roy Lee
It all started, like, about. About maybe, like, eight months ago. I'm at that time. I'm a student at Columbia. I think maybe I want to go work, like, a big tech job. If you work a big tech job right now, they will ask you sort of like a programming riddle, and it'll be the programming equivalent of, like, how many paper clips will fit in a balloon, like, some stupid question. And this has been going on for about 20 years now. You have the best developers, like, the best researchers, and they're forced to memorize, like, how to. How to code up, how to find paperclips in a balloon. Like, it's pretty fucking ridiculous. So I knew that the technology is out there to develop a invisible application that can just see the screen and feed you the information. Like, feed you the answers to the question. So that's, like, what I built. I called it Interview Coder. It's like a pane of glass. It shows up over your interview window, and we'll look at. Look at the interview that you're doing, and it will just give you the answers.
- [05:50]
Tai Lopez
Oh, so it started as a piece of hardware?
- [05:52]
Roy Lee
No, no, no. It's. It's. Oh, it's. It's. It's like an app, but it shows up over your.
- [05:56]
Tai Lopez
Okay, so it's not like a screen you put.
- [05:58]
Roy Lee
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just. Just another desktop.
- [05:59]
Tai Lopez
It's like an overlay. Like a chrome is a chrome extension or something like that.
- [06:03]
Roy Lee
It's a desktop app.
- [06:04]
Tai Lopez
Okay. Yeah.
- [06:05]
Roy Lee
And anyways, I. I use the tool and I record myself using it to get, like, a full Amazon offer. I go from, like. Like the OA to the interview, and I'm, like, fooling everybody using. Using this tool that I built, and then I publish it online. Amazon sees the video, and they're like, wow, this kid is like. Like, I can't believe he just cheated on our entire interview process. They sent a letter to Columbia saying, Like, you got to expel this kid or we're gonna really, we're never gonna hire your school anymore.
- [06:26]
Tai Lopez
Columbia's hilarious. What'd they do?
- [06:28]
Roy Lee
Well, Columbia's getting mad at me. They loot me into like three disciplinary hearings and processes and eventually they just kick me out of school. But by the time they kick me out, like I'm in the middle of raising money for my next startup and with that, that being cluly and that's, that's like where, where the origin of everything.
- [06:41]
Tai Lopez
So let me get this straight. You build this app, cheat on anything, Amazon complains that you cheated on their job interview. It goes to Columbia University, you get discipline, you get, get kicked out. Which is probably a favor because three months after you're kicked out, you've got a company that VCs value at over 100 million and they wire you 15 million bucks.
- [07:02]
Roy Lee
Yeah, correct.
- [07:03]
Tai Lopez
Yeah. Hey, I'm a college dropout. I always tell people. I've been telling people this before. Peter Thiel was paying people not to go to college. I was telling people, listen, if you study. The richest guy I know is Steve Ballmer. And Steve Ballmer is poorer than Bill Gates because Bill Gates dropped out. He told me, he said, ty, Bill Gates tried to get me to drop out and I was too conventional. And I was like, no, I want to finish my four year degree. And Bill Gates is like, come on man, me and this Paul Allen guy, we're going to go start this debt company. And Bill Gates ended up with 68% of Microsoft because he went early and Ballmer was 5%. Now luckily it became worth 3 trillion. So 5% is still good, but it's good to draw. I mean. So let me ask you an important question based on your experience and just thought, will AI make college and all education as we know it non existent because kids will just be able to use AI. So what's the point of having tests and quizzes?
- [08:11]
Roy Lee
I think the answer is no, but probably not for the reason that you think. I think right now, since, since the existence of, of Harvard and college, like people never went to college to learn about fucking like gender studies or liberal. Like no, nobody goes to college and actually gains any meaningful information from the classes. You go to college to like dick around with girls and like, like, like meet interesting people and like expand your network and until the day that 18 year olds will not know exactly what they want to do in their future. Until that or sorry, until the day comes that every 18 year old suddenly has immediate clarity about what they want to do in their future. And it's not just looking for other things to do like an adult daycare, which is college, until that day comes, like college will always be a thing. Whether they're teaching fucking, I don't know how to make like, like, like plankton slop out of like seaweed or like whatever useless subject they end up teaching. People are always going to go because that's where everybody else is going.
- [08:56]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, but so you think it'll basically your prediction is university will become a social club?
- [09:02]
Roy Lee
I think it already is a social club, but even more, yeah, even more so than it is, I think all. Yeah. If the question you're asking is like, will education as we know it be completely like, like different than, than, yes. Like almost right now I'd say if you want to learn anything, there's never a class that I would recommend more than just going to chatgpt.com and just asking it, how do I learn?
- [09:20]
Tai Lopez
I'm working. So I, I've got an app studio where essentially I read a story. A guy in Turkey a few years ago launched an app studio. That means he essentially is building different AI apps. He's doing 38 million a month. So I, I launched my app studio. I've got four apps that are all pre launch but I'm using them in beta. I like to test stuff. I built tech for a long time and I've got a therapy app coming out and I'm telling you, if you finally to. So if you just use ChatGPT, you can get some pretty good results, the average person. But we're building like a wrapper, right? So we'll, we'll, we'll use the chat gbt but we'll pre build in the right kind of questions.
- [10:05]
Roy Lee
Man.
- [10:05]
Tai Lopez
I, you know, one of my mentors is probably the number one living psychologist, Dr. David Buss. He's started the Harvard Evolutionary Psychology department. This is. So I've had some of the deepest conversations with one of the great psychologists of all time. ChatGPT is on another level. So you do this, you say to ChatGPT, ask me 10 questions one at a time that will reveal more about myself than even I know about myself. And don't ask me, don't tell me why you're asking each question. So if you go through those 10, I read this, I was like, I've never had more insight about myself than in five minute using AI. So do you predict, Roy, that AI could replace therapists as we know it?
- [10:57]
Roy Lee
I mean, obvious. I think this is like, obviously this will happen. AI is already smarter than humans at literally every single domain out there. There's not one domain where I would say with confidence, a human is smarter than AI at, a human is smarter than AI at, or an AI will not be smarter than humans at in like the next three to six months. Yeah, AI is already better than everyone and everything. And the only thing that we're lacking is the ability for AI to remember longer than five minutes of context. Once conversation gets too long, it'll sort of wipe out its memory. But as soon, as soon as there's some researcher out there that just cracks the code and expands the context window, it's not just like therapists that are going away, it's like 99% of all white collar jobs. And, and once the white collar jobs are gone, like, you better believe the blue collar jobs are next. Like, like, if you don't think robotics is coming, you've got like a, you've got, you've got like a hard thing coming.
- [11:43]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, I, I, I tell people there's two things left that are going to make big money. If you want to make big money, you got two choices. A personal brand or AI company. That's about it. Now people argue with me and they go, well, you know, what about plumbers? What about home builders? I saw an AI robot building a house, a block house, laying perfection. 200 blocks an hour. Just no HR, no work. Already Uber here in Beverly Hills, Waymo autonomous cars rolled out one approximately one year ago. Okay? My mom was visiting here. My mom hates AI. My mom's old school. She's hippie. She's like, conspiracy theory. She lives on my farm. You know, I live part of my life modern, and then I have a farm in the middle of an Amish community. That's my rebellion against AI. But anyway, she's here and I go, mom, you should get in a Waymo. She goes, I don't want a robot driving me. I want a human. I said, have you ever been in an Uber? Half the Uber drivers are texting, half of them don't know how to hit the gas and break. You're in a car with the dude. I'm like, bro, you're a professional driver. I promise you, 10% of all Uber drivers are drunk or on drugs. Another 20% are drowsy. So I told my mom that. Oh, no time. Well, then the stats came back. Non human way mos have zero fatalities in a year. And for every hundred accidents Uber has, Waymo has 20. So I said, mom, Uber Drivers are gone, they're the first ones to be gone. Delivery is first one. Guys are going to all be already there's robots delivering here. And my mom and, and I said, look mom, that may sound sad, but at every time in history when there's been new technology, people were sad. But guess what? Humans still live on. So let me ask you the ultimate question on the doom scale. There's a doom scale of AI if you haven't heard about this, really smart people like Elon Musk and the founder of Google's AI, they predict with 1 to 100 percentile the odds AI blows us off the planet. Some people like Elon Musk are about a 30, 30% chance. The former head of AI for Google is like 98%. What are you on the AI doom scale for AI potentially blowing humans off the planet?
- [14:24]
Roy Lee
One way or another, I'm about 10%. I'm very optimistic about AI and the reason I'm very optimistic is because I think fact I know with certainty that the final form factor of AI which is coming in our lifetimes is a brain chip inside your head that will let you use AI to think and transform your brain into one of AI. I think everyone thinks of this universe of AI versus humans, or AI and humans and thinks about them separately. But where this technology is obviously, obviously headed is that AI is just going to directly integrate with humans. And all of our collective consciousness will be in this one giant supercomputer, maybe somewhere in the middle of Nevada, maybe somewhere in the middle of fucking Jupiter. But eventually we are going to have the brain chips and once we do, you will see that AI is indistinguishable from humans. And already we see inklings of this starting to emerge when people write in college. Right now the essays that you see today are not the same essays of old where people go down, they think of the ideas by themselves, they do a couple drafts and then they will come and they'll do all the editing themselves. Right now you'll go to AI, you'll ask and hey, give me 10 ideas for this essay. You then pick the one that you like the most, and then you try and edit a little bit. And then you ask AI to edit the parts that you don't like. And then you ask AI to revise it and come up with this specific idea train. And all you do is you give it the general input and the guidance and the AI will completely take over from there. And I think this is what all work and all consciousness is going to look like in the future humans will give AI a few overlapping thoughts. Hey, AI, I think I want a hamburger. I think I want to build a coffee shop that also sells, like, I don't know, that also has like women in maid made a maid outfit selling coffee. Like, I think that's what I want. The AA will just go ahead and do it for you. The difference the between your thoughts and the ability to get that executed in the real world, that will become zero. And, but humans will still ultimately be the thought providers. And this is what I think the future looks like.
- [16:16]
Tai Lopez
So humans essentially become kind of cyborgs. We're half human and we have a chip in us that makes us greater than humans in terms of, you know, AI. ChatGPT is estimated to have 1100 IQ right now and rapidly growing. Now, you said something. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I'm going to slightly disagree on one thing. So you said AI smarter on everything. So I, I once in a while on the things that I'm really an expert on, let's say marketing, I can outsmart it on certain things. Now maybe if, if I fed it a better prompt, maybe, like, I'll give you an example. I asked. This is not related to marketing, but yesterday I was on stage and somebody said, ty, my social media is not going viral. So I asked AI, here's their business model. She teaches people how to homeschool their kids. Her Instagram videos aren't going viral. Give her 10 viral hooks. And it gave 10 hooks. And I read the hooks and I asked the audience, which one of these is most viral? And they were like 7 out of 10. And then I took them and I changed a few words and it. And the audience was like, now they're a 10 out of 10 virality. So I think there's really people with deep domain expertise like I've been. I built my first marketing funnel in 2001. So it's almost 25 years. I still can slightly beat AI today, but I don't know if in a year I'll be able to. I think it's like already up to the absolute, you know, chatgpt, I like this. It says, name the top 10 paid social media marketers in history. It has me listed as number one. So I'm like, okay, I agree with that. But. But I'm just saying I think it won't be long till even supposed experts like me get blown away. But it's not quite there. I have a friend that I think is the best copywriter in the world. He's so good, it's, it's mind blowing. And he still says he's like, AI can beat all my, like 8 or 9 out of 10 quality copywriters, but it still can't quite beat me. So he'll do a vsl, a video sales letter or tech sales letter, completely AI versus him and he gets a higher conversion rate. But I told him, ryan, you got one more year, brother, because it's going to feed in. Because the one problem with AI, I think, and this is the same as Google, like Google had this system where the way it put things on page one was by saying if a lot of high authority websites link to you, then you must be smart. The problem with that is that's a hackable. That's, that's hackable. I know SEO genius, black hat guys, they buy those high authority websites and push links to their stuff. So everything's still slightly hackable. I think AI, if it could weight heavier information it gets from super certain sources. So for example, if it wanted to learn how to copyright, it should identify that. My friend Ryan is the best copywriter in the world. I've met all the copywriters. He's heading, headed. He's like the Michael Jordan or the, you know, the Ronaldo of, of copywriting. I don't know how AI identifies him. Does it use a similar weighting system as Google where it's saying how many backlinks does this website do? You know? I don't know how ChatGPT does that.
- [19:44]
Roy Lee
Well, AI itself, like, like all AI as we understand it right now is largely just large language models. And these LLMs, what these LLMs do will just predict the next text token. And internally there's a few different variants of the ways that they'll do this. Internally there's like a few different variants of how they will do this. For example, you have ChatGPT with web search. And ChatGPT with web search will use Google's weighted algorithms and it will prioritize websites the same way that Google prioritizes them. But ChatGPT without weighted models, this is trained on whatever dataset that the scientists have given it. And still Nobody knows if ChatGPT is training on every YouTube video in history. They probably are, but they don't admit it publicly. Everyone thinks that ChatGPT is probably trained on every scientific research article in history that you shouldn't have access to, but they did anyways and just didn't tell anybody. Everyone does it. Like you don't know that. Llama 3 like, like Meta's. Meta's models are being trained on all of our Instagram data. They probably are, but. But, but no, no, nobody wants to admit it yet. So it's very unclear to everybody exactly which data is being fed into it. But if there is data being fed into it, then then like it will come up with largely the guess here is that it will prioritize quantity over quality here. And if there is like, say, Tai Lopez, your name comes up like a million times. Tai Lopez, best social media marketer. Uh, it will probably have like an internal, internal similar sort of weighting algorithm the same way that Google does. But I'm very skeptical that they will use backlinks the way Google does.
- [21:04]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, it's good that they don't use backlinks because those are easier to manipulate.
- [21:08]
Roy Lee
Correct.
- [21:08]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, all those. So controversial question for you. What Is the best AI? Is it ChatGPT? Is it, you know, Perplexity Cloud? Like, what's your thing? I have my opinion, but I want to hear yours.
- [21:22]
Roy Lee
Well, as, as of like two weeks ago, I'd say Grok for the latest XAI model, but before that, and I would have out of said Gemini 2.5. And if you asked me two months ago, I would probably say GPT 4.1.
- [21:32]
Tai Lopez
Okay, so you like Elon's Groq the best?
- [21:35]
Roy Lee
Yeah, right now, I mean, it's just. It like blew away all the benchmarks. Like on. Honestly, if there's. If there's one thing the tech world keeps learning, it's that you never bet against Elon.
- [21:43]
Tai Lopez
That is true. Never bet against. The only time I've ever seen Charlie Munger the billionaire that some say the wisest billionaire ever. The only time he's ever been wrong is when he told Elon Musk, I don't think you'll succeed at this. Even Elon could even blow away Charlie Munger. I mean, if Charlie Munger bets against you, you're gonna lose. Unless your name's Elon, then you're gonna somehow win. He told him Tesla is impossible. Don't try to compete with Ford. And now Elon almost failed, he says about five times, but he pulled it off. Yeah, my. I. I'll tell you, I still think Chat GBT is good on certain. Maybe it's just for what I use it for. For marketing. It still seems to beat everything I do. What I like about Grok and what's genius that Elon did. When you're on. I don't think most people know this when you're on Twitter, I Follow a lot of, like, Sigmund Freud pages and Voltaire phrases and Schopenhauer, you know, these, like, philosophers and thinkers. You can click on the tweet into it, press the top button, and grok gives you an expanded explanation of it. So there's like, a famous quote that I love. Sigmund Freud said, be careful with people who seem too virtuous on the outside because they're more most likely to have demons on the inside. Right. So if you go and you press that and then you expand on it with the little Grok, they need to get a better icon. It's a weird swirl. My mom's never gonna figure that out. Okay, put a G in it or something. My sorry. Not Valtoranda. Correct. Elon Musk, if I might. But my mom will never know. It took me a while to be like, what's this swishy thing? But you press it and then it expands and says, here's where modern science has confirmed. Here's a study in nature in 2020, you know, confirming that Sigmund Freud was right. It's fascinating, and it blows me away that no social network has done that on inst. On Facebook, they have the worst ui. They have a little top button with an arrow. It looks like a WhatsApp arrow. It's confusing. Nobody ever uses Facebook AI, I'm telling you. I mean, the way they. I'm Instagram AI, they should just have on every post, you can press a button and you get expanded text. So that's my take. Grock is great. Chat GB2, still good at marketing do. Who will catch up? Who's the dark horse here that nobody's talking about that might win?
- [24:14]
Roy Lee
I think the scary thing here is that it's China. And because we in America, we have no visibility on the Chinese AI labs. And, like, when deepsea came out, like, it. It shat the bed. It outperformed everybody. It was a hundred times cheaper than everything in America. And we have no idea what's going on in China. And what's even scarier is that there is no such thing as data privacy in China. Yeah, in America, people will make a big fuss over, oh, you can't train on my Instagram data. You can't train on my YouTube data. There's nothing like that in China. They had. They record every single thing you do. They record every single thing you do on your phone in public. They probably have fucking cameras in the toilets, and they're recording that. And they're using all of that to train models and at this point, it's just, it's just a game of who gets more compute. And we're lucky right now that Nvidia is an American company. We're very, we're very lucky. But I mean, where do you think these, where do you think the parts for the chips come from? Like, like, where do you think all, all the supply chain, everything comes back down to China. So it's really very scary position to be an American. I think that's like the true dark horse you can talk about. Google might win, XAI might win. You know, like, OpenAI might win. Those are all great scenarios, honestly. Like, these are all American companies backed by America, but really what happens when China reaches superintelligence first? Like, give us five years. We're all Chinese.
- [25:22]
Tai Lopez
Yeah. So with that question, then, controversial question. If there was a war between America and China, who would win? With the new AI world, instead of big airplanes, f. $35 billion, a swarm of AI driven drones that China has, who do you think wins in two years?
- [25:46]
Roy Lee
Two years. It's really hard for me to play out. Well, what, what I'm more concerned about is like, the quality of defense technology that America and China has. Right? There's just. We don't know what China's building in their labs. And what we do know from, from what I've heard from my friends in American defense, like, like these systems, if there is war in three hours, 99% of the defense systems that we have in place are getting shut down. Like, like the infrastructure is simply not in place. Like, how can you even test this? It's. It's really, really hard. And the tech that is there is shaky. And we can only hope that China's tech is just as shaky. But like, like the very scary question is, like, what, what, what if it's not? And what if the Chinese have just figured out something that will just make it. Make it much better? Right now, I cannot say with certainty where they are at, but if there is anything to be worried about, it's the fact that Chinese just have an overwhelming amount of data, more than the Americans do.
- [26:31]
Tai Lopez
Yeah.
- [26:31]
Roy Lee
And like, like right now, I don't think you should be worried. Honestly, I don't think you should be worried about who has the better missiles, who has the stronger airplanes. Like, the only thing everybody should be worried about is who reaches the better model faster. And if it is China, then Nihao, my friend.
- [26:44]
Tai Lopez
There you go. I better learn Chinese. My son. I have my son learning Chinese. Biggest language. You teach your son Chinese, Hindi, you know, maybe Russian, Arabic, Spanish, throwing a little German, Portuguese, Brazil, all the brics countries, Brazil. And I'll tell you, this drone going back to this military thing, one thing Elon Musk says is why are we, why are we buying billion dollar airplanes? They're going to be shot down by a thousand drones that cost a thousand bucks. A piece of billion dollar airplane meets a million dollars worth of drones driven by AI. So u. S. Military, we're spending almost a trillion dollars on stuff that might lose. And so you're back to the Vietnam war where America had all the weapons and the Vietnamese had like a shovel and would dig a hole and fight and had booby traps that were made out of like strings and cans of explosive and it might change the balance of power in the world. Yeah. Are you Chinese?
- [27:53]
Roy Lee
I'm Korean.
- [27:54]
Tai Lopez
You're Korean. Okay. I read that Koreans as we know it, South Koreans may be one of the first groups of people to go extinct, essentially because they're having so few children. Something like point 1.1 children per couple, where you need to have 2.1 just to maintain. Is that true? In. Do you see Korean families being so small that you're just like, I saw an article, I mean, I saw a video in Japan too, where when a baby is on the subway, it's so rare to see a baby. The whole subway comes and like stares at the baby. So will AI replace getting married, having a girlfriend, having children, and men will just be dating some beautiful robot?
- [28:47]
Roy Lee
Yes. I mean, the AI girlfriend is a scary concept, but it's already out there. Some of the stickiest, most retentive, most widely used AI apps are character AI or like, you know, the new x AI companion mode. And it's really, really scary because like, how is a girl ever going to compete and a real life girl ever going to compete with an AI that is just more like physically designed to be perfect looking? Physically designed to be, you know, like, like, like speaks to you exactly the way that every man wants to be spoken to. And eventually like, like right now it's on the screen and it's still taking over women. But like, what happens when that becomes like an actual robot and what happens when it looks and feels intoxic? An actual woman? Yeah, it's better in every way. It will, it will cook your meals for you, it will clean for you, it will, it will never talk back and it will do all the things that, that you might want it to do. And this, this is scary. But I think what, what I'm optimistic about Is like the concept of an artificial womb, you know, like, like, like it is.
- [29:33]
Tai Lopez
So you like the artificial womb. Now we're getting controversial. So you think this is good for humanity? There's an artificial womb where a man maybe dates and marries a robot woman, and somehow with ivf, they give birth, she carries the baby and the robot.
- [29:49]
Roy Lee
I think it's, it's almost inevitable. Like I say, I'm a big believer in the idea of AI and human convergence. We already see it happening today, and it will only get more and more invasive into our lives. And I think, like, it is inevitable that people are going to start marrying robots in the future. And I think this is, this is right, right now as it stands in our world today. This is a really big problem. But technology is capable of solving all the problems that it causes. And if it causes the problem of you no longer have girlfriends because you date robots, then, and you cannot impregnate a robot, then hopefully technology will solve that problem as well.
- [30:20]
Tai Lopez
Man, I hope I don't live to see that day I saw Gary Vee put a quote out. He said, one of my. I predict one of my grandsons will marry an AI robot. And I'm like, gary, love you, but better not be one of my grandsons. I would kick your ass if you. He's like, real women only. Real women only. What's the movie, Josh? Sons of men or whatever, Children of men, where there's one pregnant woman left on plan on planet Earth. I'm like, that should be my granddaughter. Because I want us to go down fighting to the death to have sex with actual real women to reproduce. And, And I, I think you're right, but I think that's. To me, that's the worst of AI, that men and women might start dating robots. I, I think that's the word that's. And it's. You may not agree, but I think that's the worst. You know, the. I live with the Amish for two and a half years, so I'm like high tech. But I spent a year, two years of my life, and I still have a farm in the middle of Amish community with Amish, who are they have this simple rule which is interesting. Number one, all technology is not. Not helpful, okay? Whereas the modern world, basically anything new is automatically assumed to be good. Number two, you don't have to say yes to everything. So technology can exist and you just say, we're not going to use that. Number three, that we can build technology faster than we can understand its consequences. And a Good example of this is in early American history. 17 and 1800s, we came to America and there was these beautiful trees. Some of them still exist in national parks. I'm talking about a tree as big as this room, okay? Big sequoias. And when the Native Americans were there, they didn't have technology. It was very hard to cut down one of those trees. They didn't even really have metal axes. So essentially you couldn't. They did not have the technology to cut down the tree. And then all of a sudden, Americans came and we had the steel, the metal, the ability to forge these axes. And we started cutting down trees faster than we could realize. Oh, these trees will never grow back. We're cutting them down too fast. So is there a possibility with AI that technology is coming out faster than we can properly anticipate the negative consequences?
- [33:03]
Roy Lee
If you went back 500 years and you asked the blacksmith, hey, here's a steam engine. Can you predict all the negative consequences of the steam engine? And then can you decide whether we should keep building the steam engine or not? There is no blacksmith in the world that would ever think, you know what, this will probably cause data analysts and people to sit and obesity rates to skyrocket. And there is no person in the world who could meta, analyze and predict every single thing that would happen downstream of society because of the steam engine. And he would also not be able to predict that all of a sudden people are going to be able to have food much easier. We're going to be able to live in these beautiful houses, we're going to have indoor plumbing. And he would never be able to predict either the benefits or consequences of technology. And I think right now what we have, what we're sitting on with AI, is about 10 times bigger than the steam engine. It is true that technology will bring out more abundance and more consequences and more just everything than people can ever predict. And I think in looking back, I would rather be a data analyst at Microsoft today than I would be a blacksmith like 400 years ago. The quality of life is, in today's world has inevitably improved. And it has always, always been the case that technology makes the world better. Unless you think the invention of fire was when. What is. When it was. It was like, like everything was downstream. Everything, like, was negative after the invention of fire. But if you don't think that, then you must think that the quality of life right now is probably better than a caveman who lived and died when he was like 16 years old.
- [34:15]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, it depends. When you look back in History. Sigmund Freud would say he wrote one of the mo, I think the most intelligent book I've ever read and maybe ever written, which is Civilization as Discontents after World War I, right before World War II, he essentially said, we humans have made a trade. We used to be happier, but for that happiness there was no police, there was no laws. We could live with our base instincts and there was no repercussions, so we didn't have to suppress. If a man wanted to sleep with 10 women and he was strong 10,000 generations ago, he could express his instincts and take 10 women and say, now you're mine. And now, slowly but surely, civilization entered laws, police rules, regulations, and it made the world safer. The women now didn't have to worry that a warlord would steal them. But in exchange, it forced us to repress, repress our base instincts. And at that, in that repression is at the root of why now the number one problem in the world is anxiety. So we've exchanged. In the 1500s, most likely anxiety was lower. People weren't seeing the global news and didn't have to deal with this. Your children lived one mile away from you. You weren't lonely. If you were a grandfather and, and grandmother, you moved in with your children, it was easier to get married. There was no Tinder showing every woman all the hot guys in the world. If you were a decent looking guy in a village and you worked hard, you grew up with this woman and you ended up marrying them, kind of like the Amish still do. So I think maybe a better way, in my opinion, and maybe someone, some of the great thinkers of all time is we are safer now, but we've exchanged a lot of our happiness for that safety. And I think with AI, we're smarter now, but in exchange for that intelligence, kind of like if you read the Bible, Adam and Eve, he said, Satan the snake came and said, eat this apple, it will make you know. But the second they ate the apple, they were kicked out of paradise because paradise was not knowing everything. And now maybe AI has kicked us out of whatever paradise we once have. Roy, should children learn from AI instead of regular human teachers?
- [36:52]
Roy Lee
Yeah, obviously human teachers are subjective. They're opinionated. They will like one student more than the other student. And they are also not experts at their domain. You essentially have from all of kindergarten through 12th grade, a bunch of daycares, like a bunch, bunch of daycares taught by teachers who don't really know what they're doing. AI is smarter than you at pretty much everything. And it will be able to teach your kid better than you ever could.
- [37:11]
Tai Lopez
I agree. You know why people don't like certain subjects, like chemistry, like math, almost always. They had a bad teacher and it ruined it for them. Will AI create more billionaires than ever or eliminate them?
- [37:27]
Roy Lee
Many, many, many more billionaires are going to be made from AI. But this will be at the expense of many, many people's jobs being automated away. And, and this delta we're going to see for a while until AI will be the one that fixes, fixes the gap. But in the next five years, we're going to see more billionaires than the world ever has before. And we're going to see so many more jobs eliminated because of that.
- [37:44]
Tai Lopez
So will the poor suffer for a short while?
- [37:48]
Roy Lee
Yes. But the poor will also have the advantage to up like anybody who is not using AI will. In next five years, they will become the poor. In a very few short years, the AI, it's not going to be who is rich and who is poor. It's going to be who can masterfully use AI and who cannot. And that will be the sole distinction in society. And if you cannot upskill with AI today, then you're fucked.
- [38:06]
Tai Lopez
But isn't it true that people who are naturally more gifted with IQ have an advantage because they know how to use AI better than somebody who grew up poor, didn't have technology, didn't have the mental training?
- [38:23]
Roy Lee
There will always be advantages and advantages in life, but generally I think everybody in the world, 99.9% of people in the world are lazy. And even if you give someone, if you give someone with 90 IQ, like and say there is someone with 90 IQ and they work very, very hard and they try to use AI to upskill, like you will be better than the 140 IQ person who is just lazy and doesn't try.
- [38:41]
Tai Lopez
But what will the 90 IQ person using AI do against 140 IQ person using AI?
- [38:50]
Roy Lee
It'll be a tough battle, but it'll.
- [38:51]
Tai Lopez
Be a tough battle. So. But you think it might, it might come to parity, it might equal out.
- [38:55]
Roy Lee
Perhaps, I mean, I mean once at, at a certain point it won't matter what your IQ is because all your cognitive thinking will be offshore to an AI who's like fucking 2000 IQ and it won't matter whether you're 90 or 140, like, the only thing that will matter is whether you have better taste.
- [39:09]
Tai Lopez
Can business owners today with regular businesses, restaurants, plumbers, you know, roofers, can they use AI now to automate their business in a way that gives them massive freedom if they know what they're doing.
- [39:24]
Roy Lee
Yes, I'd say probably 80% of the work you do at any of these small medium sized businesses you can automate away. Today with AI, we don't do any customer support. I maybe answer maybe like a good 5 to 10% of all the emails that come through because there's so much AI automation happening, we're able to build $100 million business with maybe 10, a little more than 10 people. And the amount of businesses and the amount of value that you can create with few people due to AI is just massively, massively expanded. If you are running a small business and you're not using AI or, or at least trying to use AI to automate everything that you can, then you're, you're falling behind and it will, your business will not last long.
- [39:57]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, I, I would say AI is going to produce the most zero employee company millionaires and billionaires in history. There's the guy that you saw, he just sold his company to wix six months after launching no employees and he sold it and made 80 million bucks and he's under 25. That only the. I actually know one human who in the last 20 years built a company worth more than 500 million with no employees. He started, his name is Marcus, he started plenty of Fish and he sold it to Tinder for $550 million. And for the first four years he had no employees. He automated it before for AI, but that's rare. Now. The gift that AI is giving anybody listening is if you learn how to use it correctly and you got a little bit of luck, you may be able to make 10, 20, $30 million in under a few years without startup capital. Even the guy who sold it for 80 million had no investors. So do you think overall we should be excited by AI because yes, there's downsides, but the benefits way offset the downsides. Or do you think it's neck and neck like yeah, AI is making the world better, but it's making it worse at the same time. How do you see the balance?
- [41:30]
Roy Lee
I think again this is why the goal of an AI should be to help humans. But if we can be correct about the goal, if the researchers can get this right, then the benefits of AI will so massively outweigh the negatives you would not even be able to comprehend. For example, Ty, I really think you and I are probably going to live to about 800 years old and even longer. If you wanted to like aging and the whole concept of like cell death, like, that's something that an AI can solve. And right now there's AIs that can literally predict protein folding. And like, like this is something that would Otherwise have taken PhDs, like literally a full thesis to figure out how one specific protein will fold. And now Google's latest AI can literally just predict any protein ever. And the amount of biological advancements that we're going to have with AI, it is going to be such that cancer is no longer in the future. There's no Alzheimer's in the future. There's no anything, anything. If you want to die, if you want to live until fucking infinitely, you will be able to. If you want to live on Universe B37, in the, in the paradise earth that they have there, you will be able to. AI is going to be capable of AI, and technology in general is just going to explode our quality of life.
- [42:26]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, yeah. You know, I'll tell you this. Whether you love or hate AI, AI is the best chance at curing cancer. And you know, I lost one of my best friends, Zach, that a lot of everybody loved him on my social media and he died to cancer. And I have a friend who has a whole movement, you know, fuck cancer. The best chance to fuck cancer is with AI. So almost every person watching somebody that they loved died early to cancer. And so for all the bad news you hear about AI, just that one thing almost makes it worth it. Controversial question. If AI allows humans to live to 500 or continue to live in younger bodies by just transplanting your brain and your thoughts into new bodies, won't this go against biology which wants older people to die off to make room for the young?
- [43:25]
Roy Lee
I think it went against biology when we decided to erect concrete industrial homes and put ourselves under roofs and not be sleeping out in a tribe with all of our friends? It went against biology when we decided to make dating apps that would democratize dating. And all of a sudden you decided who your mate would be based on pixels on a screen. There's so many things that technology has done that has fundamentally disobeyed the laws of biology that make us who we are. But as a result, like, I, I think my quality of life is much, much better than the quality of life of a caveman 4,000 years ago. I would much rather live the life today and have the hinge app that I do and have the doordash that I do and do all these things that are quote unquote, against biology, because I think my life is better I love my life.
- [44:02]
Tai Lopez
So if you could live at any time in history now, the AI world, pick the two times you'd want to live. One can be now, but one has to be another time. What would you choose?
- [44:13]
Roy Lee
I mean, of course I'd want to live now, and if not now, I'd probably want to live about 6,000 years ago. I think, and I do think as soon as technology and fire was invented, everything has like, life has only been getting better, and it has been getting better in exchange for our, you know, like our ability to execute on our base desires. And I think before then was probably the optimal time for humanity when like, like, sure I would have died at 25 of some random like, like stomach disease probably, and it would have been a tragic death. But those 25 years have been the most fulfilling lives.
- [44:46]
Tai Lopez
I've been great times. Yeah, I think that the best time to live if you take away now would probably be, you know, agrarian agriculture. Farms started 10 to 15,000 years ago. Before then we lived as hunter gatherers in small groups of 150 people. Believe it or not, if you made it past childhood, a lot of people lived into their 70s and 80s. You had that dangerous window. But then when farming came, one man started to be able to accumulate a lot. When one man accumulated a lot, he then had to form an army to keep other men from taking what he had accumulated. And so the beginning of wars, large scale warfare happened, then castles and cities because we needed to protect what we have and we wanted to get even wealthier. That introduced disease vectors that didn't exist in small groups because we weren't all stuck together with our sewage everywhere. And so you probably would have wanted to live 15,000 years ago or today. And I'm not sure which one's better, to be honest. You read, you know, money was invented as we know it probably by the Greeks, Lycians, let's say, you know, 7,000 years or maybe a little less. That also caused an interesting time in history. So will AI make money as we know it? Worthless?
- [46:21]
Roy Lee
Yes, you probably have about two, three years before to accumulate as much wealth as possible until I just completely does away with the idea of money. And right now like, like a very interesting thought experiment is, so there's, there's AI chess bots, and in chess you have ratings and these ratings just like Elo. And if you are like above 2000 yellow, you're, you're a pretty, pretty good chess player. And these, these, these, these machines and like, like the highest rated human chess player is like, like Magnus Carlson. Yeah, maybe. Maybe he scraped 3,000 or gotten close to 3,000.
- [46:49]
Tai Lopez
28 7.
- [46:50]
Roy Lee
Exactly. 28 75.
- [46:51]
Tai Lopez
And.
- [46:52]
Roy Lee
And these AIs are capable of literally playing perfect chess. And their ELOs are like fucking like, like, like twice, three times, four times as high as Magnus Carlsen's. Now imagine that it's not chess you're playing, but the game you're playing is actually the game of making money online. You tell an AI, hey, you are starting out base, base Elo 600 to try and increase your ELO and making money online. And that is the objective. This AI will be better than you at literally everything. And all it will do is just. It will get better as it trains more and more. And if you have an AI that's just capable of making money online better than any human in the world, then why do we need to worry about, like, there's no concept of capital accumulation anymore. There's no concept of capital. In fact, like, anything you ever want to do, like, like you could just snap your fingers and do it. I want hamburgers. Snap my fingers and a will be able to do it better than any McDonald's food worker. And yeah, the whole concept of money is like, is like obsolete as we know it in our lifetimes.
- [47:43]
Tai Lopez
Yeah. Because the qu. Well, I think couple things. One, the elite and I've. I've been able to be at different stages of my life. You know, I was born to a single mom, my dad was in prison. I kind of lived at the poverty line or so. And then I graduated high school, living in a mobile home in Clayton, North Carolina. And then now I'm in Beverly Hills and I've been in business with Forbes list guys. And the elite will protect themselves. And so there is going to be warfare. If AI begins to infringe on the elite's money, they will start to attack AI. And you'll see big regulations that are driven by wealthy people saying, hey, don't get rid of my money. So there's going to be class warfare against AI. Now, AI is a new class, and so it's going to be a wild ride. Hold on, ladies and gentlemen, by the way, I highly recommend you do what I did more than 10 years ago. When you make your first million, buy a farm in case everything goes to shit. In 2014, I bought my first farm in my. In the middle of an Amish community. And my mom goes, ty, you live in Beverly Hills. What are you doing? You don't even have time to go there. I said, well, if everything goes to. I'm in the middle of an Amish community. They got Wells Springs, no electricity. They live in the fine, happy and gain weight, Big strong guys, all the food they need. And then 2020 came and my mom was like, maybe that was a good idea. And we went right to my farm during the whole whack job. 2020 and 2021. So one simple remedy in the uncertainty of AI buy yourself a farm in case there's class warfare, in case there's drone wars, in case there's economic crashes. And I got the ultimate one to throw at you. I want, I want to hear your opinion. Let me tell you the craziest situation that's going to happen with AI One so crazy that the more you think about it, your mind, you're going to have to stop thinking about it because it gets too weird. What's the first group of people that uses any new technology in the last 500 years?
- [49:58]
Roy Lee
Probably college students.
- [49:59]
Tai Lopez
Okay, college, but 500 years, even before college, the first group of people, first.
- [50:03]
Roy Lee
Group of people that use any technology.
- [50:05]
Tai Lopez
Guns. Roger bacon in the 1200s. Gunpowder. Is it peaceful people?
- [50:11]
Roy Lee
No. Definitely. Yeah. No, it's got government's defense.
- [50:14]
Tai Lopez
Aggressive government before there's government. What's the group? My dad went to prison. Who goes to prison? Criminals. Criminals. So AI, you're at your local bank of America. You're getting your money. Da da da da. Here comes an AI driven robber. Bank robber comes in, has a gun, has. Is being remote controlled by some dude who knows where he is. How you going to track him? The little robot has a self destruct. So it comes in and says, give me all the bank money. If the banker says no. Pow. It has no conscious, no remorse. It's being programmed. If police happen to come and try to capture the robot and track who, what human's running it? The human presses a button, blows up. But the robber has really no chance of being hurt. He's sitting at home two miles away using AI to get money, bring them to himself. That's the first use of technology is usually somebody to use it for something illegal. Bitcoin, crypto. Who you think were first people using crypto? Who you think, who's the first people using money? Kingdoms warriors. People doing unfair things. Now what does the bank have to do? We have what's called an escalation. So the bank, the guy, the human security guard at bank of America goes, I fighting no robots. I don't want to die. And the robot doesn't care. Never go into battle with Somebody who doesn't care about their life. So he quits bank of America, now has to have a robot security guard to fight the robot. Now the robber back at home, he's making a million bucks a week. Robin Banks with no potential repercussions. He goes, well, shit, my robot can now get killed by the bank of America robot. So I got to escalate and make 3.0 version. This robot has six hands, more guns, has a shock wave that demagnetizes the whole electronics. And now you're going to have a escalation of crime that you can't fathom. And how the hell are you going to stop it? Because it's robots who's solving that problem.
- [52:40]
Roy Lee
I think this is again another problem of AI safety. Right now. If you wanted to have an AI be trained and just like, fuck off, all safety mechanisms have the, have the AI like, like teach you how to make bombs, new nuclear bombs. Like theoretically you could, but the AI safety researchers are there to like prevent that from happening. And if we did not have them there, then the air right now, it could literally go to the Internet like, like scrape. How to start like a bioterror attack in the middle of like, like some urban city in China. And fortunately, fortunately we have enough safety in place such that this can largely, you can largely prevent the vast majority of these attempts. And our only hope is that the safety will improve and the safety mechanisms will improve in the future such that and would never be able to self destruct the middle of the bank.
- [53:21]
Tai Lopez
But that creates a marketplace for North Korea scientists to go, oh, you tell me all the AIs are safe. We make our AI. It's called the do whatever the fuck you want AI. We got, we've removed all safety. It costs you, you know, 10,000 bucks to use it. You get a license. It's going to create a black market for AI that has no safety controls. So far, humans have not been able to do one thing that had safety controls that doesn't get unsafe. Nothing. Whether it was machine guns, whether it was nuclear bombs, it always started out, oh, this is good. Look at the Nobel Prize was started by a man, a Swedish man named Alfred Nobel. He felt so bad that his idea of dynamite, TNT was originally supposed to be used to mine for gold and mine for iron. And so they had to blow up mountains to get to it. Well, the second you created a good use for a technology, who's the first people to adopt it? Bismarck in Germany goes, wait, we can start blowing humans up. And so you have this rise of artillery and World War I was so nasty, so many people were killed, that Alfred Nobel basically formed the Nobel Peace Prize to offset. Albert Einstein was part of America developing the nuclear bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Einstein to his grave regretted that. He wrote a long letter saying, I retracted my technology, but you can't retract it. So that's what I'm saying. This is the dystopian future that I'm not sure. How do you solve this besides, besides safety checks? Because safety is go. There's going to create a market for people who can uncheck the safety.
- [55:09]
Roy Lee
I would, I would push back that humans have never been able to put profit checks. I think nuclear bombs, right now there's probably like six major companies with access to nuclear bombs, yet we still don't see nuclear war, despite then the technology being out there for like going on 50 years now. And I think this is much, much more than 50, something like 80 years. Right. I'm quite optimistic about the capability of humans to mitigate extinction scenarios. And I think default. No human really wants to see the extinction of the race. Besides for a very, very, very few bad actors. And I think as long as we can keep the technology in the hands of those who know what they're doing, and it is up to, it is up, up to, you know, nobody knows whether we'll be able to do that. But if we can, with the proper safety regulations, as we've done with nukes, I think pretty successfully, then I think we'll be in a fine place. And the one time we've seen nukes be used was on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And I would argue that you cannot say with certainty whether that was a good or bad decision, whether that saved more or killed more people than the alternative. But I think the fact remains, we've had nukes for decades, almost a century now, and still we're still alive.
- [56:14]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, but my counter argument is what you said. I agreed with you until one point. So you made the point that the reason we haven't had destruction with nuclear weapons is because we know as humans we don't want to die. And we know, well, if we shoot it at China, China shoots back. Mutually assured destruction. AI doesn't care. So I, I asked a friend, I have a friend who has a PhD essentially in AI, it's in evolutionary systems. He, he dropped out of Stanford, but he, he worked at NASA and he said, ty, here's my concern. If we unleash AI to run military, he guesstimates it'll be 10 minutes till it launches the first strike. Okay? And my, that's my point. When humans were running the nuke. I'll give you a perfect example. The Cuban Missile crisis in the 19. It's. This is, you know, about 60 years ago. JFK's president, Russia is. We've found that they have potentially nuclear war, nuclear weapons right off our coast in Cuba, very close to Florida. Kids are being trained. What do we do in the nuclear war? And it got this close and the Russians basically flinched. It was like JFK going up against them. And we're talking. It was a one day, it could have gone either way. It was a coin flip. A few year, a few decades or about a decade later, a Russian post in like Siberia got an alert. The Americans have launched nuclear weapons at us. They call back to Moscow. We see it, it's coming over Alaska, it's coming over to hit us. And the Russian general who had one of the keys, he essentially turned the key. Okay, let's shoot. We have 10 minutes till they hit us. We got to hit them back. And the other guy hesitated. He probably had kids and he's like. And it turned out it was a hot air balloon. We were one dude away from potential annihilation of Earth. So, so imagine if instead of a dude with the key, who's thinking about, oh, my grandkid was just born. Do I want him to be born radioactive? You know, dying. What if it's a robot? Who goes, I care nothing. I've been directed to have mutual. What if we train, what if we just tell AI accidentally make the world a better place. I mean, it's 10 minutes. So it goes, great, blow humans off this planet. You want the world to be a better place. Who causes all the problems? Humans. So the second there's that directive, and yeah, you're gonna have little safety checks, but the safety checker, who's gonna check, who's gonna safety check the safety checkers?
- [59:06]
Roy Lee
I think generally the scientific consensus is if you train AI to be helpful, harmless and, and maximally honest, then, then you will have an AI that does not interfere too much and only is strictly truth seeking and strictly tries to provide value.
- [59:21]
Tai Lopez
But harmless to who?
- [59:23]
Roy Lee
Harmless to anybody.
- [59:25]
Tai Lopez
Oh, but can you do that? But look, let me just. Okay, if you tell AI, what class of people should it be harmless to the poor, the wealthy or the middle class?
- [59:39]
Roy Lee
It should be maximally harmless to everybody.
- [59:42]
Tai Lopez
Including animals, but on a utilitarian basis. Okay, so you brought up animals. So is it utilitarian if there's too many humans, 8 billion. And the perfect balance, AI has a 1200 IQ brain goes, well, we're not going to get rid of all humans, but you know, if we have 8 billion people, we're going to lose too many chimpanzees, rhinos. So let's bring humans down to 1 billion and that's the best overall. If we said do no overall harm to all living creatures, you're going to bring down humans, most likely. Now let's say, then you say no, prioritize humans on a waiting. So we are more important than earthworms? Let's say you say so if earthworms have to die, but then the robot goes, but wait a second. Humans need food and the basis of all big basis of soil health is the amount of earthworms moving through the soil. And humans are using Roundup and killing all the earthworms. You go, well, the problem is pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies. So what if AI becomes Louis, what's the guy's name, Mangioni, who just shot Luigi Mangione. What if AI goes, oh, you want to do no harm. Most humans are great. We want to help the earthworms, we want to help everything. Here's what we do. Well, this cyborg fleet, go take out all the ultra wealthy CEOs, you lose 20 guys a week and the rest of the world gets better.
- [61:18]
Roy Lee
I think this is, this is the classic example of the trolley problem. And I think if the AI is faced with a trolley problem where you can either take an action and kill less people or you can like, like take no action and kill, kill more people, then I think the AI in that decision, it should just remain out of it. And that's what it means to be like maximally harmless. If there, if, if there is an action that the AI could take, like web, if it harms anything, then it should not to take that action, even if it determines that the better consequence that the better utilitarian standpoint is to kill few for the sake of the, for the sake of the majority, it should not take that action.
- [61:49]
Tai Lopez
So for Clulee, how big this company get? What's the next big thing that people don't know that you can announce here? What are you rolling out? Sales, helping salespeople. I think I heard that you and.
- [62:02]
Roy Lee
Yeah, the whole concept of KLU is it's chatgpt, but it sees everything you see, hears everything you hear, and knows everything about you. And this is much more powerful than just chatgpt.com. what we're interested in next is like the hardware space. I think it's probably obvious that there's a lot of money to be made in software and the computer and like a hyper personalized assistant on your computer. But it's a lot more interesting when you have this hyper personalized assistant. Be able to be out of the computer and be able to be in your real life, whether it's in your glasses, your AirPods, your headphones. No, no matter where it is, there's going to be a hardware factor of just this AI that sits, sees what you see, here's what you hear and just always like telling you the most useful information or like almost like telling you how to live your life better and that that's what Clue is going to be targeting next.
- [62:43]
Tai Lopez
So since Cluly is how to cheat on anything, is there a Cluly for Tinder?
- [62:49]
Roy Lee
Yeah, I mean Clue. Cluly works for Tinder. Right now you could spin Cluly up, go to tinder.com and ask it to give you the best pickup lines based on every girl's profile.
- [62:56]
Tai Lopez
And it'll. But what about a husband or wife that's cheating on their partner? Does clearly go. Here's how to not get caught.
- [63:03]
Roy Lee
We, we say cheat on everything but your girlfriend. So.
- [63:06]
Tai Lopez
Okay, yeah. But you didn't say what about your boyfriend?
- [63:11]
Roy Lee
Everything is not. It's, you know, everything except your partner. Yeah.
- [63:14]
Tai Lopez
You're up in San Francisco. You got to say cheat on he. Them. They. Yeah. She. She. There's how many genders in San Francisco? 36 or something. Something. Cheat on all. I think there's 36. There's 36. How will. Let's talk about marketing for a second. You're really good at growth hacking. In three months you've created a company valued over a hundred million dollars that's pretty rare in history. And you're 21. Yeah. You know, when I, when I think about that and I said this earlier, the only two business models are going to last is personal brand and AI companies. Personal brand will be able to withstand the AI revolution. Can predict if I'm investing, I would invest in Taylor Swift for the next decade. I, I don't sure. There could be robots getting on stage and there will be and there will be robot DJs. But Taylor Swift I think is going to stay famous and stay doing billion dollar concerts. So her personal brand strong. The world's gonna crave some authentic. Oh, thank God. I know Taylor Swift or I know Ronaldo is a real person. You know, I know it's not a AI like only fans is going to be challenged because people are gonna be like, I don't even know if this girl's real. Who cares? You know, they're not real personal brands in the same way that a singer, a rock star, musician. Now for you to have built this thing, there's one skill which is the king skill, which is marketing. Because if you're doing personal brand, you gotta be good at marketing to get your face out there. And if you build an AI app, well, everybody can vibe code an app now, sometimes in under a day. So you got really good at marketing. What's something someone listening can learn? You're, you're one of I, I call it growth hackers. Modern day growth hackers. You've really, you focus on one platform, am I right the most, which is Twitter or no?
- [65:03]
Roy Lee
Yeah, me personally. Yes. But, but, but, but the company is like right now we're making big strides into TikTok, Instagram.
- [65:08]
Tai Lopez
Which one did you start with? One though.
- [65:10]
Roy Lee
You started with Twitter?
- [65:10]
Tai Lopez
Yeah, yeah. I always recommend like Confucia said, the man who chases two rabbits.
- [65:14]
Roy Lee
Correct.
- [65:14]
Tai Lopez
Catches none. So you went hardcore at Twitter. What do you like about Twitter?
- [65:17]
Roy Lee
Twitter. And the region of Twitter that I'm in with with a bunch of tech pros and finance people is a region of Twitter where it's like super corporate, super stuck up. And people will always try to out intellectualize each other. And what they don't understand is that the short form algorithm does not reward the most intellectual post, rewards the most outrageous post. So when I come in, I'm Gen Z and I spent the last 20 years of my life on Instagram, TikTok and Reels like, I come in, I say all this controversial, crazy shit. Yes. And that on Instagram people won't even fucking flinch at. But on Twitter they think it's like the crazy, the craziest thing ever. And that's what the short form algorithm rewards. So I come in there and I just stack like a hundred thousand followers in my, like in the blink of an eye. And it's, it's, it's something that the tech world has never seen before. Yeah. And that's what I was able to do. And I think right now there still is a gap where right now the nerdy engineers that are on tech, Twitter, they still don't understand how short form works. You can go in there and if you have a really good brain for content, you can just crush it in tech.
- [66:06]
Tai Lopez
Yes. Yeah. I tell people right now, if you know how to market it is the greatest time in history. This is I would say of the last. Let's say humans are 300. Homo sapiens are estimated about 300,000 years as we know it there for making money. This is the best year ever because you can build things quick without a lot of help and a lot of capital. You don't need that. The age of capital is decreasing. But you, you have to know how to do short form content that get. You know, I. I've gotten a billion views in a month before more than that when I was really focused on it and the value of that. You could sell anything and get rich. You could have an underwater basket waving course. If you make a billion, you get a billion plus views in a month. You'll make seven, maybe eight figures in an underwater bat. You don't even have to have a good product with that much exposure. People, there's. Have you ever heard of the book by Bernays called Propaganda?
- [67:05]
Roy Lee
No, I haven't.
- [67:06]
Tai Lopez
So it's probably that. You should read it. It's one of the most fat. It's. But he was the nephew of Sigmund Freud and he studied the great propagandists. Okay. The German leader in World War II. We won't say the name because it gets you kicked off. You don't go viral. But one of the things he said is that humans think they know why they're buying something, something that car or this. But mostly it's because that car has a lot of attention on it. It's maybe the ugliest. Cadillac put out the ugliest car and sold tons of it because they got influential people to be in the car driving around and people are kind of copycats. And so with. You use how many UGC influencers to just post that they're using Cluley.
- [67:53]
Roy Lee
We have about 60 right now. 60.
- [67:55]
Tai Lopez
And they're just posted full time for you?
- [67:57]
Roy Lee
Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
- [67:58]
Tai Lopez
And then you have clippers that take your content and recut it up.
- [68:02]
Roy Lee
Right.
- [68:02]
Tai Lopez
And how many of those do you have?
- [68:03]
Roy Lee
We have 700.
- [68:04]
Tai Lopez
700. So how many. What's your monthly view goal for the Cluly brand on social?
- [68:11]
Roy Lee
Soon, I think. I think loftily 10 billion views a month would be what we're aiming for here.
- [68:16]
Tai Lopez
Nice. What have you. What have you hit so far?
- [68:18]
Roy Lee
Probably we're. We're closing in on about 200 million across everything.
- [68:21]
Tai Lopez
200 million. But you think. So you think this is infinitely scalable or somewhat massively scaled?
- [68:26]
Roy Lee
Yeah, yeah, yeah. At least two orders of magnitude bigger than what we're doing Right now, I believe.
- [68:30]
Tai Lopez
Yeah. So 10 billion in a month or in a year?
- [68:33]
Roy Lee
10 billion a month.
- [68:33]
Tai Lopez
Yeah. I'll tell you this. You know, I've told people this since 2015. I'm like, this is the greatest arbitrage in history. I used to spend 500,000amonth just boosting YouTube before there was clippers. And people are like, that's. I'm talking stuff with no call to action, no button to buy it. May you print money. Correct. Because the rule of marketing is people buy what they've seen before. Not always. What's the best? True. I mean, look at everything McDonald's isn't. What. What award has McDonald's ever won for the best hamburger? But they got that sign up there. Social proof. Billions and billions served. And humans are like sheep. And they go, well, billions of people went to McDonald's. Let me eat this burger. I saw a video. You could put a hamburger from McDonald's, like, outside for 30 days. The thing doesn't rot. Ants don't eat it. It's like a piece of radioactive material. And people are still like, oh, let me eat this all day. So attention overall. Correct.
- [69:36]
Roy Lee
Never before in human history have you been able to pick up a phone, talk for 10 seconds, and get it seen by 100 million people. You have that opportunity now, and I. It blows my mind that every single person in the world is not out there making content.
- [69:46]
Tai Lopez
Roy, thanks for being on the show, man. Thanks. This was awesome. We'll have to do it again. Yeah.
- [69:50]
Roy Lee
100%.
- [69:50]
Tai Lopez
Where's the best place people can go to learn about you and your, you know, 100 million-plus valued Cluly company.
- [69:58]
Roy Lee
You can either go to cluly.com or you can see me on Twitter at. I'm Roy Le.
- [70:04]
Tai Lopez
I'm Underscore Roy. That's where we met. We talked. I was like, you got to come on the podcast, man. I see you. I love to see you grow to me. Marketing. You know Elon Musk, richest man in the world, because he's a great marketer. Correct. He has other skills, too. Donald Trump's the president because he's his greatest marketer who's run a political campaign in recent history. So marketing overall, my friend.