A Divorce Attorney’s Guide to Leaving a Narcissist

Summary

---

Episode Overview

Podcast: The Tamsen Show
Episode: A Divorce Attorney’s Guide to Leaving a Narcissist
Host: Tamsen Fadal
Guest: Sue Moss, renowned divorce attorney
Date: December 17, 2025

In this episode, Emmy-winning journalist Tamsen Fadal sits down with one of New York’s top divorce attorneys, Sue Moss, for an empowering conversation designed as a roadmap for anyone considering divorce—especially those facing narcissistic partners. The episode focuses on navigating divorce from a place of knowledge versus fear, understanding legal and emotional pitfalls, and recognizing and escaping narcissistic abuse. Tamsen and Sue demystify spousal support trends, the importance of prenups, recognizing abuse, and resources for those with limited means.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Changing Landscape of Divorce

• Spousal Support Is Shrinking:
  Sue Moss explains, “We are becoming much less generous when it comes to spousal support… Permanent spousal support has essentially gone to the wayside in almost every state.” (05:10)
• People Are Living Longer, Divorce Later:
  The phenomenon often called “gray divorce” is explored, with Sue noting: “People are looking at their lives and saying if I'm unhappy, can I spend the rest of my life being unhappy? Or do I want to just take a deep breath, jump and try to see if I can find some happiness?” (11:16)

---

2. Top Reasons Marriages End

• Not Just Infidelity:
  “The most common reason is not adultery… it’s the grass is always greener, and people aren’t willing to put the work in.” (05:37)
• Sue’s Approach:
  She often suggests counseling before divorce and stresses only clients can decide when to “push the button.” (06:21)

---

3. Family Dynamics: In-Laws and Children

• In-laws in Divorce:
  Sue calls it “in-law law,” explaining, “Oftentimes a client’s parents want to control the entire case because they hated the spouse from day one.” (12:49)
  • Advice: “Make sure your divorce lawyer knows that you are the client, not your parents, especially if they’re paying.” (13:30)
• Children and Divorce:
  Sue highlights the impact on children and rationale for sometimes leaving for their sake rather than despite them.
  “Sometimes you need to leave for the children, rather than despite the children.” (16:04)

---

4. Understanding and Escaping Narcissistic Abuse

• Recognizing Emotional Abuse:
  “The most common [issue] we see is one spouse will be a narcissist and will almost insert themselves into the brain of the other person.” (17:24)
• Warning Signs Before Marriage:
  • “If they always have to be right, correct you frequently, isolate you from friends or family… those are beginning warning signs.” (19:45)
  • Often couched as, “‘I care about you, I love you, I want what’s best for you.’” (20:46)
• First Steps Out:
  Sue advises micro-steps: “First, you’re like, I’m not getting a divorce, I’m just learning.” (32:33)
  • Look up narcissism symptoms: “Check, check, check. That’s when they realize maybe there's an issue.” (33:32)
• The ‘Chip’ Analogy:
  “It’s almost like they put a chip in their spouse’s head… step number one is to evict that narcissist out of their head.” (17:24, 19:08)
• Helping Others:
  Key is to ask, “If a man said that to your daughter or your niece, what would you do?” (34:36)
  • “People who are in relationships with narcissists are really in a fog… it’s going to take a while to come out of the tunnel.” (35:09)
• On Abusers' Charm:
  Sue notes the fear many victims feel that "the judge will be charmed" by the abuser. Her rebuttal: “First of all, you pay me to believe you… but I highly doubt it.” (37:13)

---

5. The Role and Importance of Prenups & Postnups

• Having the Conversation:
  “The most important concept is that before getting into a marriage you have to talk about the tough issues—finances, children…” (23:18)
• When You Need One:
  • If you have children from a prior marriage
  • If you own part of a family business
  • If relatives depend on your finances (24:03)
• Not Always Necessary:
  “I’m not always pro-prenup… but in those cases, I think a prenup or a postnup, or some agreement under the law, is necessary.” (23:24)
• What They Cover:
  “As little or as much as you want with regard to all financial issues. Any issues concerning children… are not enforceable.” (28:11)
• Postnups Are an Option:
  “It’s similar but there are definite differences in terms of how easy or hard it is to set aside… but the concept is the same: coming to an agreement ahead of time.” (26:34)

---

6. Mediation, Self-Representation, and Limited Resources

• When Mediation Works—and When It Doesn’t:
  • Not appropriate where there's domestic violence, hidden assets, a tendency to lose arguments, or overwhelming guilt (41:11)
• Free or Low-cost Resources:
  • Domestic violence organizations: Sanctuary for Families, Safe Horizons in NY (42:42)
  • Court “pro se” (self-representation) offices (42:52)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hope After Divorce:
  “The best part about my job is I see people every day… at the end I can see a smile, a laugh, an ability to joke. Because the goal… is getting you to your better life.” – Sue Moss (01:50)
• On Marriage Reality:
  “Marriage takes real work… you have to listen as much as you speak.” – Sue Moss (07:23)
• On Living With a Narcissist:
  “The sometimes hardest part is step number one: evict that narcissist out of their head.” – Sue Moss (17:24)
• On Taking Action:
  “It is not scary when you take it in bite-sized steps.” – Sue Moss (33:23)
• On Legal Representation:
  “You need to make sure your divorce lawyer knows that you are the client—not your parents, not uncle who is writing the check.” – Sue Moss (13:30)
• On Love After Divorce Law:
  “Being a divorce lawyer doesn’t mean that we don’t love love… most of the time our clients go and get married to someone else and are happy.” – Sue Moss (39:28)
• Final Advice:
  “Breathe, and think. You need a sounding board… going through a divorce is a marathon… but there is a beginning, a middle, and yes, there is an end. And this will end—even the worst divorces ever have an end.” – Sue Moss (40:31)

---

Key Timestamps

• 00:41 – Tamsen sets the stage: importance of knowledge over fear in divorce
• 03:00 – Sue’s origin story: fighting for a battered woman
• 05:10 – The decline of permanent spousal support
• 06:21 – Sue’s philosophy: counseling before divorce
• 10:46 – Rise in “gray divorce” and societal shifts
• 12:49 – The impact and control of in-laws in divorce cases
• 16:04 – The reality of divorce’s impact on children
• 17:24 – Emotional abuse: narcissists and “the chip”
• 19:45 – Warning signs of narcissism before marriage
• 23:18 – Discussing prenups: when, why, and how
• 28:11 – What to include (and exclude) in a prenup
• 32:33 – First bite-sized steps in leaving a narcissist
• 34:36 – When narcissistic abuse turns to the children
• 40:31 – Sue’s closing advice: breathe, get a sounding board, know it will end
• 41:11 – When not to mediate; resources for low-income or abused spouses

---

Summary Takeaways

This episode is a must-listen for anyone considering divorce, especially those dealing with narcissistic or abusive partners. Tamsen and Sue offer clarity, practical steps, and reassurance that a better life is possible on the other side of divorce, no matter how daunting it may seem. The conversation is streaked with empathy, pointed legal advice, and empowering humor—making even the hardest truths feel a little less heavy.

Further Resources:

• Consult legal aid organizations, domestic violence resources, and pro se offices if you cannot afford representation
• No situation is hopeless—small steps can lead to major change

Connect:

• For additional resources and Sue Moss’s contact information, check the episode show notes.
• For ongoing updates, follow @thetamsenshow on social media.

---

Transcript

[A]

Today'S podcast is sponsored by midi health i walked in with real symptoms brain fog exhaustion anxiety and walked out with nothing but a suggestion to wait it out that's why midi matters they actually listen and they treat what others ignore this is midlife care that finally makes sense ready to feel your best and write your second act script visit joinmitty dot com tamsen today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit that's joinmitty dot com tamsen midi the care women deserve this episode is brought to you by progressive insurance you chose to hit play on this podcast today smart choice make another smart choice with auto quote.

[B]

Explorer to compare rates from multiple car.

[A]

Insurance companies all at once try it at progressive dot com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates not available in all states or situations prices vary based on how you buy well whether you are married thinking about getting married considering divorce or wanting to protect yourself in the future this conversation is going to help you make decisions from a place of knowledge instead of fear my guest today is sumas one of the top divorce attorneys in the country and she's not going to just talk to you with all that legal language that you can understand by the end of this episode you're going to walk away with something i wish i had decades ago and that's clarity many of you know this but i went through a divorce in my early forties and it literally turned my life upside down it was messy it put me in over one hundred thousand dollars in debt destroyed a business i had and it took years to rebuild what was left afterward for a long time i felt totally alone first of all i didn't know what questions to ask what i should have even been prepared for or how to protect myself and the truth is i needed this conversation we are about to have sumaas welcome to the show absolutely it's.

[B]

Great to be here and i'm so sorry to hear that you had such a negative experience i didn't have sue moss in my life the reality is divorce can set you up to being happy and so many the best part about my job is i see people every day and they come to me and they are depressed they are sad they are in the middle of this morose and i watch them go through the tunnel and at the end i can see a smile a laugh an ability to joke because the goal that we have as divorce lawy is getting you to your better life and i heard about your experience but we're gonna make sure that does happen to others.

[A]

That'S right we do wanna protect other people because i wish i had known i wish i'd known you first of all but i wish i had known even the questions to ask or what to think about and i think you get into this moment and you get swept away quite frankly and that's what happens until there's a problem but this is why i wanted to ask you on the show because you've been one of new york's top divorce attorneys for a long time i started seeing even.

[B]

Though i'm very young even though you're very young i did recount what drew you to this work well i actually started when i worked in law school for a woman who was convicted of killing her abuser this is a woman who lived with a gang member in chicago for six years he beat the living hoo ha out of her and one day after he had had some alcohol and had passed out she grabbed his gun and she shot him six times she was immediately arrested and she was convicted of first degree murder and i was able to get her out through a clemency petition using the battered woman syndrome and that first opened up my eyes to the whole concept of domestic violence and the whole concept that people need help now once she got out of jail that was half the story because then we had to reunite her and her children her children had been taken away other people had had cust and then we started the process of getting back her children so i had this crazy experience even before i started law school and that's how i.

[A]

Got into all of this wow in terms of wanting to make sure you're protecting people and making sure you you know because there's family involved too in all this it's not two people absolutely.

[B]

And then i discovered my love of money and then fighting over money and.

[A]

That just and that sealed the deal for you and the rest of it that sealed the deal you know i've been noticing patterns i always look for patterns as a journalist headlines i've seen recently the women quietly quitting their husbands quietly quietly some of them eat pray leave america makes it too hard and dangerous to get divorced what is happening these days when it comes to divorce and trends or where we're at with.

[B]

Things one of the negative trends is the following we are becoming much less generous when it becomes to spousal support there is a expectation that the non moneyed spouse is gonna go back to work even if it's a long term marriage so when i started my career in nineteen yesterday we had long term or permanent spousal support that's essentially gone to the wayside in almost every state in the country and certainly in new.

[A]

York no matter who makes more no.

[B]

Matter who makes more or how big the disparity is so we no longer you know we nor unless there is horrific reason we do not give long term or permanent spousal support and that's a huge change and that's very scary to people but you know that's really.

[A]

Where we're going so let's start from the beginning what is the most common reason most people end up in your.

[B]

Office the most common reason is not adultery it is the grass is well it's two things it's one is the grass is always greener and two is that people are not willing to put in the work it takes for a marriage look under the best of circumstances things aren't going to always be rosy you know marriage takes real work and there are going to be real life problems and you have to work with your partner to get through them if the two of you are both not committed to doing that hard work at some point there's going to be a crack that will lead to the end.

[A]

Of the marriage you try to send people away before you oh also all.

[B]

The time you do yes okay what.

[A]

Do you do have them see a.

[B]

Counselor a therapist you know i'm very good at many things but i'm not good at when to push the button although i do watch a lot of doctor phil so i do feel like i and i have an opinion and i'm happy to give an opinion but certainly my opinion is you know just just that so people have to be ready to push the button and that's a decision they need to make and if somebody is not you know ready to push the button i'm not gonna push it for them and i learned that very valuable lesson early on in my career where had a woman who was the subject of horrific domestic violence and i looked at her and i said you gotta do it and we got through the entire divorce and then she went back to her spouse afterwards and the abuse became even worse and that's when i learned the very valuable lesson i can't be the one to make the decision to go you have.

[A]

To they have to they have to make that decision for you what has being a divorce lawyer taught you about.

[B]

Marriage it's hard work and it also taught me i don't know how my husband stands me but somehow he does.

[A]

Is he scared of you i think.

[B]

He'S a little afraid of me hi honey but it really taught me that it's a lot of hard work and you really have to listen as much as you speak what isn't hard for.

[A]

Me no it's not i've known you a while i've known you a while what do the numbers look like nowadays what do the numbers look like okay.

[B]

So the numbers are a bit misleading and i'll tell you why you know oh fifty percent marriages end in a divorce no there's a difference between first time marriages and non first time marriages because we have a lot of repeat offenders we have a lot of people who get married get divorced serial people who get married and divorced and that really raises the numbers it's you know one of my clients was speaking to his therapist and his therapist said you have a problem having long term relationships with women and he says no i've had a thirty year relationship with sue moss my divorce lawyer and i guess that's not really what she meant have.

[A]

You have you seen couples repair the relationship in the middle of the divorce.

[B]

Process successfully i mean the reality i was in one meeting and it was clear that these two really loved each other and sometimes that happens do you point it out in fact in one case we were in the middle of the trial and it was clear to both me and the opposing counsel that this was a mistake and we took them out in the hallway and ten minutes later it was an all out bawling session of everybody crying everybody missing you know remember the tv show three's company of course there was essentially one theme to that show which was misunderstanding and so whenever we see that there's a three's company misunderstanding there certainly have been times when we've gone and we say look let's talk this out and there have been a number of times that the parties went back together how.

[A]

Often do they not go back together how often do you think these marriages you know marriages fail i guess it's not i thought it was like fifty percent of all marriages fail you're saying.

[B]

That'S not the case fifty percent or forty percent of all marriages fail but those aren't all first marriages it's much lower for first marriages there are a lot of people staying together are you.

[A]

Seeing the divorce rate go up or go down these days you know the.

[B]

Best part about we're pretty stagnant we're pretty steady we're staying you know in good times you want to trade up in bad times you want to cut loose and in and in stagnant times you're bored so we are like the most steady area of law you can.

[A]

Imagine now i do not like the term gray divorce however you're familiar with the term no it's not it's a.

[B]

Lot of money to make sure we are not gray it's not personal to.

[A]

Us i hear a lot more about that of people leaving marriages whether it's perimenopause menopause during that time not because of i hesitate to say because of but during that time do you see a correlation in that or is that not anything you really have paid attention.

[B]

To it's a lot more than it ever has been and the reason for that is number one people are living much longer and number two society wise or societal wise it is more accepting of older people to get divorced and number three you know people are looking at their lives and saying if i'm is this it if i'm unhappy can i spend the rest of my life being unhappy or do i want to just take a deep breath jump and try to see if i can find.

[A]

Some happiness what mistakes do you see women making when it comes to the timeline or the pressure to get married quicker than men feel because i don't know that men feel that timeline that.

[B]

Women feel i mean obviously it's biological for children you know i have two daughters and they don't listen to me but i will keep on telling them freeze your eggs it gives you so many more options and you never have to use them but if you ever want the option it will be there because the biological clock is a real thing and it's legit and there are more health issues when you are older and you know science is science yeah.

[A]

It'S funny we just had a conversation about fertility and egg freezing and how those those numbers have increased you know drastically in a way that you know certainly was not around when i was in the middle of my in my divorce it was kind of one of those luxury options it wasn't anything insurance looked at it it was you know it was something like not very many it didn't seem to me very many people talked about let's talk about in laws and a role that a role that they play in all of this is that a real thing i mean we see the movies about it we see the headlines about it we know people complain about in laws does that get into your office and into the.

[B]

Courtroom yes but in many ways my favorite way is and i call it you know in law law because oftentimes a client will come in and that client's parents want to control the entire.

[A]

Case and the divorce case the divorce.

[B]

Case because they hated the wife or husband from day one and they want to get theirs and it's you have to really navigate those cases to make sure that the parents or the grandparents the in laws don't control the divorce case because you will go from zero to sixty in in a heartbeat but.

[A]

You see that a lot in adults.

[B]

In adults yes especially if they're the ones with the money so what do.

[A]

You do what do you suggest to somebody that is dealing with something like that because i think we really want to make sure people have suggestions no matter where they are whether they're you know in the area of gray divorce or whether they're in the area of in laws interfering if you are getting.

[B]

Divorced you need to make sure that your divorce lawyer knows that you are the client not my parents not this person not uncle who is writing the check i you know i am the client and therefore you need to take direction only from me and that can be really hard especially if the parents.

[A]

Are paying and especially with all the emotion involved they have to imagine that's.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This show is sponsored by midi health i have been there sitting in a doctor's office trying to explain what's going on with my body only to be told it's stress and that it's just part of getting older i was told that the brain fog the night sweats the sudden weight gain all brush off like it wasn't even worth looking into well midi is changing that experience they're a virtual clinic built specifically for women in perimenopause and menopause and they actually listen to you their expert clinicians meet with you one on one they ask real questions and they create a personalized plan for your symptoms your hormones and your health they're also the only telehealth care provider in this space covered by major insurance if you felt dismissed or invisible in the healthcare system midi was built for you because this chapter of life deserves more than a shrug it deserves real support ready to feel your best and write your second act script visit joinmitty dot com tamsen today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit that's joinmitty dot com tamsen midi the care women deserve dsw designer shoe warehouse is the one stop shop for all your footwear needs with sneakers boots and everything in between for every style mood and occasion you'll definitely find shoes that get you at prices that get your budget dsw has what you need but more importantly they have what you didn't even know you wanted you never know what you'll find at dsw find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at dsw stores or dsw dot com so we talk about parents let's bring kids into it and the difference with divorces when there's children involved or not children involved because we do know that i don't think that's a it's a question that anybody has that a lot of times people stay in a marriage because of kids and for the children where do you come into play there is it usually when they've made that decision or they're trying to figure things out because that can be horrific for a child to go through of any age so.

[B]

It varies significantly so there are sometimes when i say to clients i hear you you don't want to get divorced because you have young children but do you want your daughters to grow up to know that it's okay for men to treat them like that for men to speak to them like that for you know sometimes for men to hit you like that and you are being a role model for your children every you know kids are sponges whenever they see this this is what they think is normal and sometimes you need leave for the children rather than despite the children and oftentimes we have kids who say i'm happier because at least my parents aren't fighting and they're much better friends now that they're not living together and sometimes they say well now i am seeing what a happy relationship is with number two three four five or six.

[A]

Spouse you know you have mentioned physical abuse a few times right now let's go into how common that is how common it is and maybe also how common it is not to talk about.

[B]

It what i think is the most common topic to be swept under the rug is actually the emotional and the verbal abuse it's it's being convinced that you have no worth that you are everything you do is horrible and wrong that your opinion has no merit and oftentimes you know obviously there's all types of abuse but the most common that we see are one spouse will be a narcissist and will almost insert themselves into the brain of the other person so that they question everything that they do and they literally stick up for their spouse when they are abusing them saying well i deserved it or well they're right well i was wrong well the reason they did this is because i did this that and the other and step number one in any of these divorces is to evict that narcissist out of their head it's almost like they put a chip in their spouse's head and you know they're renting space in their spouse's head without paying rent and you've got to evict them and that's a hard process because sometimes these people these narcissists are really smart they're really good they know everything about their spouse and they know exactly how to put pressure on that one little pressure point to get into their head so that they're the ones who are abusing themselves based upon a cue given by.

[A]

The narcissist you know it's funny because the the last interview we've had on this show about narcissists came from a therapist and a doctor but hearing that word coming from an attorney especially a divorce attorney well we're in new york.

[B]

Well home of the narcissist but but.

[A]

It really is something that's much more common than i realized and are there some certain signs so if somebody is listening to this and they say listen i'm planning to go into a marriage but wow some of the things sue moss is saying are really resonating right now are there some signs of that narcissism before somebody ends up in your office that they should be aware of going into a relationship or a longer.

[B]

Commitment if they always have to be right even if it sounds like they are right but if they always have to be right if they correct you frequently if and then and then it gets into general controlling behavior if they start telling you negative tidbits about your friends and family convincing you not to spend as much time with your community of friends and family or loved ones than you typically used to if they isolate you if they say but i want to spend this time with you and that causes you not to go to family reunions or to confide in your friends or they put themselves in the middle of you and your friends or you and your family those are the beginning warning signs that if not dealt with in therapy are only going.

[A]

To continue are those couched always in because i care about you because i love you because i want what's best for you from an archaeology sure and.

[B]

Because i know i'm right what is.

[A]

A woman who has been in a narcissist marriage how do they deal with that when they're coming in to go how do they get to your office first of all because i feel like.

[B]

That'S really hard it's really hard but when they get there i play a little game with them i go i take out a piece of paper and every time they rationalize some abusive behavior you know i count one do you.

[A]

Let them know you're doing that yeah.

[B]

I go okay we're gonna i say we're gonna play a game you go every time you you you apologize or you rationalize their behavior i'm just gonna count and i'm like one and they're like well you know he hit me but this is what i did two and they're like well he doesn't give me any money but you know he does give me an allowance three and we just count the things you must.

[A]

Hear and it just keeps going i'm.

[B]

Just saying it just keeps going and then when i get to usually about forty six they're like is that something and i'm like perhaps perhaps something is.

[A]

It usually the woman that files for.

[B]

Divorce no it varies it varies it's probably about half and half but if.

[A]

A woman comes in there i have to imagine that she feels like she is most women have done everything they can and beyond to keep that marriage going is that what you see as.

[B]

A pattern that's usually the case but we often have men who too have tried their darndest to keep the marriage together all right but it takes two.

[A]

To tango what do you want somebody who is going into a marriage now to know the most important thing is yes to be compatible yes to be in love what else do you have to do because we're gonna go into this category of talking about prenups and i know that it makes some people.

[B]

Cring that keeps on giving i know.

[A]

It makes people cringe but this is how you and i got together nothing.

[B]

Says i love you like sign here honey well and we didn't get together.

[A]

In full disclosure because of me having one but just because you were talking about it and i had kept seeing things on social media about prenup prenup prenup and i thought this is a conversation that we have to have because i think it gets a there's a connotation that that means like oh we don't feel like we're going to go to you know we're going to be together forever so talk about what a prenup is and why somebody that is going into a marriage should you feel.

[B]

Like needs to be sometimes yes and sometimes no so i'm not a always.

[A]

You'Re not a pro prenup all the.

[B]

Time no i mean i'm not anti prenup in fact i have a nice summer home because of prenups no i'm just kidding okay let's go the reality is the most important concept is that before getting into a marriage you have to talk about the tough issue that can be finances are you gonna work are you gonna continue to work are we gonna have children if we have children are we both gonna continue to work there are certain areas where you really need to think about a prenup and this is not every case if you have children from a prior marriage.

[A]

You need to be thinking about a.

[B]

Prenup you need to think about a.

[A]

Prenup to protect them to protect them.

[B]

And to protect everybody from killing each other once you pass away and fighting so that everybody knows the rules everyone knows the rules it may be to protect your spouse but it's protect against you know later fighting that everybody knows this is what's happening two if you are a part owner in a family business you really want to talk about a prenup because your brother sister father uncle they don't want to be partners with your future spouse and you know sometimes people like me can go in and destroy a business in a divorce process it certainly can happen because you have no choice well because you need you need to figure out what's fair and you don't know what's fair until you really you know you need to see how the sausage is made so those are two scenarios the next is if you have people who depend other people who depend on you so if you have a loser brother or i don't have a loser brother hi there brother but if you you know if you have some relative who you need to take care of you want to make sure that everybody knows the ground rules that every month i'm giving x dollars to my brother which i'm not to support him or her so it's important to have those discussions and in those particular cases i think a prenup or a postnup or some sort of an agreement that could be followed under the law is entered into because those are pretty serious issues for other people you know we're getting married later especially in this town and so people have already established they've already built up their career and their finances and if they go in you know there needs to be an understanding you know some spouses will think this is all mine and that will lead to fighting which might crack the marriage there needs to be an understanding what happens to that prior income that prior stuff and you know if two people have totally different views we should know that at the beginning.

[A]

So we know what prenup is before you get married before you say i do before you postnup is once you've gotten gotten married correct and then how do you do that you just it's the same thing but you just say.

[B]

We'Ve made this decision it's similar but there are definite differences in terms of how easy or hard it is to set aside them so there and some jurisdictions do not allow for them so there are very real differences in those two sets of documents but the concept is the same coming to an agreement ahead of time if we split or if one of us predeceases the other.

[A]

Do you think that those are unromantic.

[B]

It'S not romantic or unromantic it just is it's as romantic as you want it to be so i'm making sure that should something happen to me you are getting x y and z okay that can be romantic yeah if i'm making sure that isn't that a will well it's a will can be changed at any time a prenup or a postnup is much more guarantees you of rights than a will that can be changed at any time the same thing for a divorce it can be romantic i want to make sure you are always taken care of or i want to make sure that your grandfather's hundred dollars that he's giving to you will always be yours that can be romantic.

[A]

So if somebody is already in a marriage it's not too late to do a prenup which is a post up.

[B]

In most states in many states in many states okay yes in new york.

[A]

In new york call sue and then a prenup can that be updated at.

[B]

All of course with a postnup okay.

[A]

And then what should be in a.

[B]

Prenup as little or as much as you want with regard to all financial issues any issues concerning children are not enforceable because those rights concerning child support or custody really are the rights of the child and the children don't exist yet so we can't contract away their rights so really we're talking about financial issues and what we're talking about mostly is spousal support property distribution which includes what happens to debts and what happens if one person dies before the other so those are the three main and we can do as much or as little as as people as people want.

[A]

Okay tam fam you know that sleep is my number one priority i mean it it is the thing i focus on all the time and trust me when my sleep is off everybody feels it everybody in my life so i have to share what i've been using because it's making made such a difference for me it's called the eight sleep pod five it's a smart mattress cover that goes right on top of your existing bed it's designed to help you sleep deeper and wake up feeling more restored and what i noticed first was how it regulates my temperature all through the night i like it cool aira likes it warm and somehow we both get exactly what we want the pod learns your sleep patterns and adjusts automatically so you're not waking up to throw the blankets on and off your leg back and forth you know what i'm talking about if you know you know then there's the data when i wake up i can see how i slept sleep stages heart rate breathing all of it this holiday season eight sleep is extending their biggest sale of the year use my code tamsen at eightsleep dot com tamsen for up to dollar four hundred off the pod five you even get thirty days to try at risk for free plus eight sleep products are now fsa and hsa eligible financing options such as affirm are now available okay as we get closer to the new year i have been thinking a lot about the habits i want to carry with me into the next chapter of my life not just the next month and the one thing i've learned is that the best habits are the ones that are so simple you stick with them it's why ag one has become part of my morning routine it's the daily health drink that combines your multivitamin pre and probiotics superfoods and antioxidants into one scoop i drink it first thing in the morning it's quick it tastes clean and it takes all the guesswork out of feeling like i'm doing something good for my body every single day and truthfully i started because i just wanted that one habit that i could rely on especially on the days when things get chaotic if you have been thinking about your own routines into the new year this is one habit you can start both before january even arrives i mean you can have your ag one drink while you're listening to the tamson show it's a tiny shift that makes you feel like you're taking control i use it and you should too ag one has their best offer ever if you head to drinkag one dot com tamsen you'll get the welcome kit a morning person hat a bottle of vitamin d three k two an ag one flavor sampler and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement agz for free which has been a game changer for my nightly routine that's drinkag one dot com tamsen for one hundred and twenty six dollars in free gifts for new subscribers i want to talk about somebody trying to get out of a marriage they've made a decision they want a divorce okay they're trying to because narcissists you know and i've been very honest about it the person that i was married to before ira was a narcissist there was no question about it.

[B]

Not ira not ira doing great he's.

[A]

Great but that person was a narcissist i didn't have the vocabulary for that i had no idea i didn't understand it i was protective all the time of that person and i was like not who i am sitting here today it hurt me incredibly financially it hurt my confidence even more than that that's right somebody is in a relationship like that right now which might have been much worse might be much worse than what i was going through how do you start to go down the path to get to your office if you are trying to remove yourself from a relationship with a narcissist you do it.

[B]

In small bite sized steps so first you're like i'm not getting a divorce i'm just learning and we do a lot of that you know people will come and say you know just give me information and the most important part of a divorce is understanding the ground rules how it all works what are the ground rules what are the default rules if you don't have a prenup what are the or if you have a prenup what does the prenup say because most people walk into my office they're like i signed this document i don't remember what it says and i'm like let's get the document but what are the default rules understanding how the process works what are the steps what happens day one what happens day you know one hundred how does it work just getting the information it is not scary when you take it in bite.

[A]

Sized step okay because you're not making.

[B]

A you're not making a decision you're.

[A]

Just learning and somebody in a relationship with a narcissist needs to take those small steps to be able to make.

[B]

A big one even before you get to that step is just look up narcissism because on mister google there will be all the symptoms of a narcissist and i can't tell you how many people are like huh yeah you know check check check that's right and that's when they realize maybe there's an issue.

[A]

I still worry about women that don't even realize they're in these abusive relationships.

[B]

Too because i think you can't tell them because you can tell them once you tell them they usually turn on you that you're the problem so how do you do that you're jealous you're jealous that we have such a great relationship that you're creating problems and then the narcissist when they learn about this does their best to excise you from.

[A]

The relationship how do you help somebody that you know maybe is in a relationship like this whether it's a verbal abuse or maybe you don't know if there's physical abuse but you can definitely see the verbal abuse i'm sure you've seen that in your you know in your real life and as a divorce attorney you have a lot more expertise.

[B]

With that oftentimes the key for many cases is when the narcissist behavior turns on the children it's okay if you say that to me but you know when you say that to the child so oftentimes you say if a man said that to your daughter or to your niece what would you do but i deserve it you don't know you don't understand you don't know what i.

[A]

Did because a chip has been implanted.

[B]

Because the chip isn't implanted and step number one is to take it it outside of yourself and say if that behavior went to somebody else what would you think what would you say how would you feel and that starts the process but it is hard people who are in relationships with narcissists are really in a fog and it's a fog that has been created for them they're in a tunnel and it's going to take a while to come out of the tunnel and but it's the best part about my job oh my god i can't tell you how many people come in and they're like you're not gonna wanna take my case okay don't know why you're here then you're not gonna take my case because my husband is the scariest person you've ever seen and i'm like is he you know has he ever killed anybody has he ever this i'm like then i'm not so scared and then at the end they're like go get him go kill him and then i'm like oh you're out of the tunnel that and you know my other favorite this is actually the most common i'll be with a client well this that and the other you know hopefully you settle but you know oftentimes you have to go to court and it's the night before court and the client just looks terrified on a zoom or in my office and i say okay what's going on and they go you're going to meet my husband and he is going to charm you and you are going to think i'm the biggest liar because he's everything he says is so correct and you are going to be every the judge is going to be charmed by him and you're all going to think i'm crazy and i'm like well first of all you pay me to believe you so that's really not gonna happen but i can truly tell you i highly doubt it and then i meet these guys and they are just ridiculous textbook and like not only do i am not gonna be charmed but the judge is not gonna be charmed and they're often wearing bro vests and it just it's just amazing everyone thinks that i'm gonna meet their spouse and think and swoon and swoon swoon one woman and this was the smartest woman i ever met smartest woman i ever met and she says this to me and i you know cause she's the smartest woman i ever met in the two thousand eight drop in the stock market she tells me a month before get into cash it's all going down she's the smartest woman i know and she tells me this i'm gonna be swooned by this guy he walks in and it was tony from saturday night live fever it was like i was like you've gotta be kidding me he was walking with paint cans not really but it.

[A]

Was you have seen it all believable.

[B]

And i go please tell me not that guy anybody but that guy you cannot think that that guy is gonna swoon anybody and she's like what you don't see it and i'm like oh.

[A]

Dear god but you've seen you have seen it all is there one without naming names an unbelievable case that you have seen or taken care of are.

[B]

They all pretty unbelievable there's so many there are so many and people do crazy things like you know i get a call from an opposing counsel he goes hi i just got a call from my client and your client is with a sledgehammer by his porsche oh my gosh and i'm like no just do me a favor sue could you call your client sure call my client funny thing they tell me you're outside with a sledgehammer by his porsche yeah i'm going to take down that porsche could you not i think it will really hurt our case oh really you're.

[A]

Part attorney part therapist part friend part.

[B]

Girlfriend i think it will really hurt our case okay and we saved we saved we saved yet another porsche with.

[A]

Everything you've seen do you still believe.

[B]

In love sue love i love love of course you do i've been married for a long time twenty twenty three years see i got that i got that because my husband thinks i can't remember our wedding date so no i do i do love love and being a divorce lawyer doesn't mean that we don't love love because you know most of the time our clients go and they get married to somebody else and are happy so and that's you know that just you know in economics you know sometimes there's sunk costs where you know you've put everything into a relationship it's just not gonna work so you've gotta cut bait and try to go to your more efficient outcomes so even under the theories of economics divorce makes.

[A]

Sense one thing to leave everybody with whether they're going into a marriage getting out of a marriage not sure where they are right now in all of it but want some advice from sumas.

[B]

Breathe breathe and think if you're not sure first of all you need a sounding board whether it be a best friend or a relative or a therapist you need a sounding board because going through a divorce is a bit of a marathon it has you know mile five which you're feeling great you know mile fifteen not so much you know mile twenty you want to throw up but there is a beginning a middle and yes there is an end and this will end even the worst divorces ever have an end and you'll be.

[A]

Okay if somebody cannot afford to go to a divorce attorney what is that option there is that a mediator is.

[B]

There so mediators are terrific but for four categories mediation is terrific in all except for four categories one domestic violence two if you don't know what the assets are if you don't know what the assets are you can't mediate and i know people are like well the mediator will find out no you're really going to need to dig harder number three is if you lose every argument you're not going to do very well in a mediation because the same pattern of you losing is going to happen in the mediation and the fourth one and this is one that shocks you if you feel overly guilty i've never in my over thirty years of practicing divorce law had a case where it was one person's fault maybe they'll it will walk in my door tomorrow but i've never had a case where it was one person's fault so unless it's domestic abuse there's always a little something so domestic violence yeah okay maybe but but but if you feel overly guilty you cannot mediate because you will not be able to to protect your interests.

[A]

So what are the options if somebody cannot hire a divorce attorney if if.

[B]

There is domestic violence there are a lot of domestic violence organizations sanctuary for families safe horizons in new york and.

[A]

We'Ll put that we'll put that list.

[B]

And they're terrific the next option is we have a lot of each court has a represent yourself self representation office we call it a pro se office where you can go in and you can help or you just go okay you just go our judges are people and they will really help to move it along but don't use that as.

[A]

An excuse sue it's so good to see you thank you sure i feel like we're gonna have a lot of questions so i have a feeling you're gonna be coming back for it's my.

[B]

Favorite game stumps and loss all right.

[A]

We never st so we'll make sure to get all those resources so you can get those to us so we can put them in the show notes all right thank you so much for tuning in if you've not left a review by the way please take a moment it really helps the podcast more than you know and the women who need these conversations you can find sue moss information and additional resources and all the show notes there i hope the episode gave you some clarity maybe direction maybe a little more peace and i'll see you in the next episode today's podcast is sponsored by midi health so many of you know this but i was dismissed over and over again when i was struggling with perimenopause symptoms i didn't even know i was in perimenopause it is so important you're getting care from someone that specializes in women in midlife and that they're willing to have the hormone therapy conversation with you i get questions from you every single day about where to go for support and i'm always suggesting midi health it's covered by insurance and you don't even have to leave your house ready to feel your best and write your second act script visit joinmitty dot com tamsent today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit that's joinmitty dot com tamsen mitty the care women deserve hey ryan reynolds here for mint mobile one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north and this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of mint mobile's unlimited wireless for dollar fifteen a month now you don't even need to wrap it give it a try at mintmobile dot com switch upfront payment of dollar forty five for three month plan equivalent to dollar fifteen per month required new customer offer for first three months only speed slow after thirty five gigabytes if network's busy taxes and fees extra see mintmobile dot com.