Episode Overview

Podcast: The Tamsen Show
Episode: A Divorce Attorney’s Guide to Leaving a Narcissist
Host: Tamsen Fadal
Guest: Sue Moss, renowned divorce attorney
Date: December 17, 2025

In this episode, Emmy-winning journalist Tamsen Fadal sits down with one of New York’s top divorce attorneys, Sue Moss, for an empowering conversation designed as a roadmap for anyone considering divorce—especially those facing narcissistic partners. The episode focuses on navigating divorce from a place of knowledge versus fear, understanding legal and emotional pitfalls, and recognizing and escaping narcissistic abuse. Tamsen and Sue demystify spousal support trends, the importance of prenups, recognizing abuse, and resources for those with limited means.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Changing Landscape of Divorce

• Spousal Support Is Shrinking:
  Sue Moss explains, “We are becoming much less generous when it comes to spousal support… Permanent spousal support has essentially gone to the wayside in almost every state.” (05:10)
• People Are Living Longer, Divorce Later:
  The phenomenon often called “gray divorce” is explored, with Sue noting: “People are looking at their lives and saying if I'm unhappy, can I spend the rest of my life being unhappy? Or do I want to just take a deep breath, jump and try to see if I can find some happiness?” (11:16)

2. Top Reasons Marriages End

• Not Just Infidelity:
  “The most common reason is not adultery… it’s the grass is always greener, and people aren’t willing to put the work in.” (05:37)
• Sue’s Approach:
  She often suggests counseling before divorce and stresses only clients can decide when to “push the button.” (06:21)

3. Family Dynamics: In-Laws and Children

• In-laws in Divorce:
  Sue calls it “in-law law,” explaining, “Oftentimes a client’s parents want to control the entire case because they hated the spouse from day one.” (12:49)
  • Advice: “Make sure your divorce lawyer knows that you are the client, not your parents, especially if they’re paying.” (13:30)
• Children and Divorce:
  Sue highlights the impact on children and rationale for sometimes leaving for their sake rather than despite them.
  “Sometimes you need to leave for the children, rather than despite the children.” (16:04)

4. Understanding and Escaping Narcissistic Abuse

• Recognizing Emotional Abuse:
  “The most common [issue] we see is one spouse will be a narcissist and will almost insert themselves into the brain of the other person.” (17:24)
• Warning Signs Before Marriage:
  • “If they always have to be right, correct you frequently, isolate you from friends or family… those are beginning warning signs.” (19:45)
  • Often couched as, “‘I care about you, I love you, I want what’s best for you.’” (20:46)
• First Steps Out:
  Sue advises micro-steps: “First, you’re like, I’m not getting a divorce, I’m just learning.” (32:33)
  • Look up narcissism symptoms: “Check, check, check. That’s when they realize maybe there's an issue.” (33:32)
• The ‘Chip’ Analogy:
  “It’s almost like they put a chip in their spouse’s head… step number one is to evict that narcissist out of their head.” (17:24, 19:08)
• Helping Others:
  Key is to ask, “If a man said that to your daughter or your niece, what would you do?” (34:36)
  • “People who are in relationships with narcissists are really in a fog… it’s going to take a while to come out of the tunnel.” (35:09)
• On Abusers' Charm:
  Sue notes the fear many victims feel that "the judge will be charmed" by the abuser. Her rebuttal: “First of all, you pay me to believe you… but I highly doubt it.” (37:13)

5. The Role and Importance of Prenups & Postnups

• Having the Conversation:
  “The most important concept is that before getting into a marriage you have to talk about the tough issues—finances, children…” (23:18)
• When You Need One:
  • If you have children from a prior marriage
  • If you own part of a family business
  • If relatives depend on your finances (24:03)
• Not Always Necessary:
  “I’m not always pro-prenup… but in those cases, I think a prenup or a postnup, or some agreement under the law, is necessary.” (23:24)
• What They Cover:
  “As little or as much as you want with regard to all financial issues. Any issues concerning children… are not enforceable.” (28:11)
• Postnups Are an Option:
  “It’s similar but there are definite differences in terms of how easy or hard it is to set aside… but the concept is the same: coming to an agreement ahead of time.” (26:34)

6. Mediation, Self-Representation, and Limited Resources

• When Mediation Works—and When It Doesn’t:
  • Not appropriate where there's domestic violence, hidden assets, a tendency to lose arguments, or overwhelming guilt (41:11)
• Free or Low-cost Resources:
  • Domestic violence organizations: Sanctuary for Families, Safe Horizons in NY (42:42)
  • Court “pro se” (self-representation) offices (42:52)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Hope After Divorce:
  “The best part about my job is I see people every day… at the end I can see a smile, a laugh, an ability to joke. Because the goal… is getting you to your better life.” – Sue Moss (01:50)
• On Marriage Reality:
  “Marriage takes real work… you have to listen as much as you speak.” – Sue Moss (07:23)
• On Living With a Narcissist:
  “The sometimes hardest part is step number one: evict that narcissist out of their head.” – Sue Moss (17:24)
• On Taking Action:
  “It is not scary when you take it in bite-sized steps.” – Sue Moss (33:23)
• On Legal Representation:
  “You need to make sure your divorce lawyer knows that you are the client—not your parents, not uncle who is writing the check.” – Sue Moss (13:30)
• On Love After Divorce Law:
  “Being a divorce lawyer doesn’t mean that we don’t love love… most of the time our clients go and get married to someone else and are happy.” – Sue Moss (39:28)
• Final Advice:
  “Breathe, and think. You need a sounding board… going through a divorce is a marathon… but there is a beginning, a middle, and yes, there is an end. And this will end—even the worst divorces ever have an end.” – Sue Moss (40:31)

Key Timestamps

• 00:41 – Tamsen sets the stage: importance of knowledge over fear in divorce
• 03:00 – Sue’s origin story: fighting for a battered woman
• 05:10 – The decline of permanent spousal support
• 06:21 – Sue’s philosophy: counseling before divorce
• 10:46 – Rise in “gray divorce” and societal shifts
• 12:49 – The impact and control of in-laws in divorce cases
• 16:04 – The reality of divorce’s impact on children
• 17:24 – Emotional abuse: narcissists and “the chip”
• 19:45 – Warning signs of narcissism before marriage
• 23:18 – Discussing prenups: when, why, and how
• 28:11 – What to include (and exclude) in a prenup
• 32:33 – First bite-sized steps in leaving a narcissist
• 34:36 – When narcissistic abuse turns to the children
• 40:31 – Sue’s closing advice: breathe, get a sounding board, know it will end
• 41:11 – When not to mediate; resources for low-income or abused spouses

Summary Takeaways

This episode is a must-listen for anyone considering divorce, especially those dealing with narcissistic or abusive partners. Tamsen and Sue offer clarity, practical steps, and reassurance that a better life is possible on the other side of divorce, no matter how daunting it may seem. The conversation is streaked with empathy, pointed legal advice, and empowering humor—making even the hardest truths feel a little less heavy.

Further Resources:

• Consult legal aid organizations, domestic violence resources, and pro se offices if you cannot afford representation
• No situation is hopeless—small steps can lead to major change

Connect:

• For additional resources and Sue Moss’s contact information, check the episode show notes.
• For ongoing updates, follow @thetamsenshow on social media.