How to Find the Meaning of Your Life (From Harvard's #1 Happiness Expert)

Summary

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The Tamsen Show with Tamsen Fadal

Episode: How to Find the Meaning of Your Life (From Harvard's #1 Happiness Expert)
Guest: Arthur C. Brooks
Date: March 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this enlightening conversation, Tamsen Fadal hosts Arthur C. Brooks, renowned Harvard professor, happiness researcher, and bestselling author, to explore the science and practical steps behind finding meaning in life—particularly relevant for those navigating midlife transitions. Drawing from his upcoming book, The Meaning of Your Life, Brooks shares evidence-based strategies for overcoming loneliness, understanding life changes, and cultivating deeper, more meaningful connections. The discussion ranges from the evolution of our brains, the epidemic of meaninglessness, and practical "six pillars" to living a life full of purpose, love, and growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Arthur Brooks' Journey and the Midlife Transition

• Personal Backstory: Arthur discusses his journey from professional musician to behavioral scientist and ultimately to happiness research after significant life transitions, including leaving a high-profile CEO role.
  • “I started off as a classical musician… it was kind of my whole thing… but I knew there was something beyond that.” (08:11)
• On Reinvention: Tamsen credits Arthur's book From Strength to Strength as pivotal in her own midlife career change, highlighting the importance of "permission" to reimagine the future.
• Crystallized vs. Fluid Intelligence: Brooks explains how, as we age, our brains shift from being problem-solvers (fluid) to pattern recognizers and teachers (crystallized), which opens new avenues for purpose and fulfillment.
  • “As you get into your 40s and 50s… you're a much better teacher than you've been in the past. That’s called crystallized intelligence.” (04:21)

Embracing Life’s Liminal Spaces and Growth

• The Power of Transitions: The discomfort during periods of change—"the time between the things"—is a prime time for growth if one leans into rather than fights it.
  • “That’s when you feel like a lobster that’s molting and it’s kind of soft and it’s precarious and vulnerable." (06:28)
• Permission to Move On: Letting go of former identities allows for stronger, more meaningful next chapters.
  • “If you can let go and say, it’s okay, I’m going forward and I’m gonna be even stronger. There’s something pretty incredible and attractive about that.” (05:30)

The Epidemic of Meaninglessness

• Modern Struggles: Arthur shares that the inability to articulate or feel the meaning of life is now the top predictor of depression and anxiety—especially among young adults but impacting all ages.
  • “The number one predictor of depression and anxiety is the inability to articulate the meaning of your own life. And this is a new problem.” (12:42)
• Role of Technology and ‘Hustle Culture’: The overuse of digital devices and relentless focus on achievement drives us toward left-brained thinking, neglecting the brain’s right hemisphere responsible for meaning and connection.
  • “Modern life is shoving us into the left side of the brain and making the why questions harder and harder to answer.” (15:25)

Six Pillars of a Meaningful Life

(From Arthur Brooks’ upcoming book, with timestamps for first mention: around 40:25+ and detailed throughout)

1. Ask Deep, Unanswerable Questions (18:37, 19:10)

• Developing the habit of introspective, “why”-oriented questioning opens the right hemisphere of the brain, leading to deeper meaning.
  • “Start asking deep questions that don’t have answers.” (19:10)
  • Example questions: “Why are you alive? For what would you give your life right now? Why do you love your husband?” (20:19)

2. Embrace Romantic Love and True Connection (22:13–28:29)

• Romantic love is an irreplaceable path to meaning, but deep friendship can play a similar role, especially for those not in romantic relationships.
  • “Not allowing yourself to fall in love is a huge problem.” (24:14)
  • “Women through deep, deep friendship can get most of the benefits” of love. (27:59)
• Importance of eye contact and touch:
  • “You can almost save a marriage by making eye contact.” (25:11)
  • “Always be touching. Always be making contact.” (26:33)

3. Suffering as Sacred and Growthful (33:42)

• Suffering is inevitable and shouldn’t be avoided; it’s a powerful teacher and source of meaning.
  • “My suffering is sacred. My suffering is my teacher. Today is going to be a day that has some… really hard things, and I’m grateful for that, too, because through that I’m going to learn and grow.” (33:49)
  • “If you’re not sad and anxious, you need therapy.” (33:44)

4. Transcendence: Seeking Something Bigger (40:31)

• Stand in awe of something greater than yourself, whether through spirituality, nature, or service.
  • “Transcendence is standing in awe of something bigger than you, to transcend yourself.” (40:31)
  • “One of the two best ways of doing that are looking upward in awe or looking outward to serve other people.” (41:16)

5. Find Your Calling (44:50)

• Your calling may not be your job, but is what you feel meant to do. Prioritize love and relationships along with career.
  • “There’s a calling in life… and people today are often forced into things that aren’t their calling.” (44:56)
  • “You need to do a lot of different things and not have the world tell you what your calling is. You need to find your own calling.” (46:58)

6. Experience More Beauty (64:11)

• Beauty—artistic, natural, or moral—is crucial for meaning and must be experienced directly, not through screens.
  • “Life today isn’t very beautiful… children spend four to seven minutes a day in nature and four to seven hours a day behind a screen. That's exactly backwards.” (65:04)
  • “Lower the meaning you feel on your vacation by 16% by taking pictures.” (65:14)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the Right vs. Left Brain:

  • “The right side of your brain is more dedicated to mystery and meaning. Love, happiness. The left side… is technical tasks.” (15:26)

• On Relationship Loneliness:

  • “One of the things that drives couples apart is that they don’t look at each other in the eyes when they talk.” (25:11)
  • “When women feel like there’s not a deep human connection with the one person with whom they’re supposed to be fused… that’s the fusion of the two right hemispheres of the brain together.” (60:54)

• On Love & Happiness:

  • “Happiness really is love. What is love? Love isn’t a feeling. It’s to will the good of someone else as that person is. To will somebody else’s good. That is the most profound experience of life itself.” (74:43)

• On the Modern Epidemic:

  • "They'd say, my life feels like a simulation of real life. I go to work on Zoom, and I date on the apps, and my friends are on social media ... I feel like I'm in the Matrix." (68:22)

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• [02:24] Arthur’s transition from CEO to happiness research
• [04:21] Explanation of crystallized intelligence and midlife reinvention
• [12:40] Brooks on depression, anxiety, and meaning of life in modern times
• [15:25] The brain, technology, and our lost sense of meaning
• [18:37] The importance of asking big questions
• [22:13] Falling in love and why relationships are complex, not complicated
• [25:26] The neurobiology of touch and eye contact in relationships
• [33:42] Suffering as necessary for growth
• [40:31] Transcendence: spirituality and looking beyond the self
• [44:49] Finding your calling, distinguishing it from mere jobs
• [64:11] Experiencing beauty—nature, art, morality—in real life

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Practical Takeaways

• Lean Into Transitions: The most uncomfortable times are usually when the most personal growth can occur; change is a signal to learn and become.
• Use Your Whole Brain: Step away from tech and routine tasks to make space for mystery, questions, and meaning.
• Cultivate Deep Connections: Eye contact, touch, true friendship, and shared experiences create the bonds that fuel a meaningful life.
• Embrace Suffering as Part of Life: Don’t numb or run from pain—it’s an inevitable and essential source of growth and new purpose.
• Pursue Transcendence: Seek spiritual or awe-inspiring experiences, serve others, and look beyond yourself.
• Find and Live Your Calling: Don’t let the world dictate your path—try different things and keep relationships central.
• Immerse in Beauty: Direct engagement with nature, the arts, and acts of goodness are vital, and not substitutable by screens.

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Final Reflections

Arthur C. Brooks distills years of research and personal experience into six actionable pillars that cut through the noise of modern living. In an era of anxiety, loneliness, and surface-level connection, returning to simple yet profound human essentials—questions, love, suffering, awe, calling, and beauty—is both a remedy and a roadmap for living a meaningful life.

As Tamsen remarked, "You opened mine. And I didn’t even know it was closed." (71:01)
Arthur's conclusion: “If you truly love, you will find meaning. And if that's the part of your life that needs repair, that’s the thing to get after right now.” (74:43)

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For further resources and Arthur’s books, visit his website (referenced at 44:22) or follow links in the episode show notes.

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Transcript

[A]

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[A]

If you have ever wondered whether there's an actual science behind feeling happier, behind why your life relationship, your choices feel like they do. Good news there is. Arthur C. Brooks is one of the world's leading experts on happiness. He is a Harvard professor, bestselling author, and internationally recognized researcher whose work has shaped how millions of people understand happiness and human connection, including myself. His upcoming book, the Meaning of youf Life, reveals how meaning is built and why understanding those forces can change the way you see your relationships, your choices, and also yourself. So if you've been trying in any way to understand meaning behind where you are right now in your life, I'm telling you, this conversation is really gonna help you get there. So welcome to the Tamsen Show, Arthur Brooks.

[B]

Thank you Tamsen. What a delight to be with you.

[A]

I'm so thrilled to have you here. Me too. I feel like I know your voice because I've listened to your books on audio, many of ours.

[B]

That's right. I've lulled you to sleep at night with the dulcet tones of reading my book.

[A]

No, I promise it was only daytime. It's really nice to have you here.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And I feel like we can go in a lot of different ways.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

I was talking before we turned the cameras on, but I read From Strength to strength in 2022 when it was published. But it really was very pivotal as I changed careers two years ago after 30 years in journalism. So it really showed me that it was. It was okay to do that. It gave me permission somehow.

[B]

And you need to do it.

[A]

And I needed to do it too. So for those listeners who might not be familiar with the book, From Strength to Strength, and maybe some of the work that you've done, you haven't always talked about happiness, right?

[B]

No, no. On the contrary, I've done a lot of different things in my work. I'm a behavioral scientist by background, but I dedicated myself to the study of happiness when I needed to make a transition myself. And I've written books about happiness in the past, but I really dedicated myself to bringing it to bigger audiences only seven years ago. And that was when I was stepping down from a big CEO job, and I was lost. I didn't know what to do. I mean, I didn't. I mean, I needed to step away. It was time to step away, but I didn't know if there was another act. And so I started thinking and doing a lot of research on how people who got happier as they got older, they moved into something that was better for them, what they all had in common. There's lots of case studies out there, people who do it poorly. There are a lot of people who are hanging onto the past, and you're like, oh, man, he's really missing a step. And I didn't want to be that guy. And I thought I had something else to give the research on how our brains change, how our lives change, how our personalities change, and how we can actually, as super strivers, move on to the next curve of our lives and be successful and actually get happier as well. I think I cracked the code, and

[A]

I think you did, too.

[B]

I wrote it for you, Tamsen.

[A]

You cracked it for me. It came at such. I mean, you know, we say things come when they need to come, but it came at such a time, and I don't know that I really knew what to expect from it. Yeah, it gave me the permission I needed to feel okay and feel like I wasn't giving up by walking away from the only career I had known, aside from waiting tables. I went from waiting tables to being a news anchor, and that's what I did my whole life for 30 years. I mean, it really gave me permission to understanding why I needed to do it and how it was gonna be so much more beneficial to me, for sure. Without feeling like I was giving up.

[B]

Well, no, exactly right. And the truth of the matter is that as we get older, particularly as we move through our 40s and 50s, there's lots and lots of changes. There's neurobiolog changes, but there's also psychology that goes into this. And one of the things that you find is that people move from one kind of general intelligence to another. When you're younger, when you're in your 20s and 30s, you're good at cracking the case. You're a good kind of cowboy in the way that you do your work and on your own. And that's what made you really good at what you were doing as a journalist, for sure. But as you get into your 40s and 50s, you find that you're a much better teacher than you've been in the past. That's called crystallized intelligence. That's pattern recognition, the ability to explain intricate topics, even science, to people. And if you found that you had a real interest in taking a scientific topic. I don't know. Just hypothetically, I don't know. Menopause?

[A]

Yeah, we'll use that one.

[B]

I mean, that's a technical topic. I mean, that's a really. That's a very, very intricate area of science. And you wanted to explain it to a lot of people. And you found that you could with empathy and connecting with people in ways you couldn't in the past. And you couldn't understand. Why am I so interested in this? And why am I so much better than this? It's because your crystallized intelligence was higher than it had ever been before. And it was calling to you.

[A]

It was.

[B]

This was time for you to actually. The professor that's inside you to become a teacher. And that's what you are. You're a teacher now.

[A]

Thank you for that. Because it really was a. And when people say, how did you reinvent? And I was like, oh, I read this book From Strength to Strength. If you haven't read it. And I really do. I have said that to a lot of people because it always is a question. And I think you said it right. There are a lot of people that can't walk away and don't feel like it's okay for them to do that. Cause they feel like, oh, gosh, my best years are behind me. But, wow, when you can let go, no matter what age you're in, but especially in. If you can let go and say, it's okay, I'm going forward and I'm gonna be even stronger. There's something pretty incredible and attractive about that.

[B]

There is. Now, of course, it's scary because when you're doing something new, you're leaving things behind. And there's a period that we call liminality or liminal space in your life. And that's just a fancy way of saying the time between the things Yep. And that's hard.

[A]

The now what time? Right.

[B]

Yeah, no, exactly. What. And that's when you feel most insecure. That's when you feel like a lobster that's molting and it's kind of soft and it's precarious and vulnerable.

[A]

Ye.

[B]

And that's a hard time. But that's when you actually have your most growth. This is something I'm real interested in. My research is the time between the tides of your life. And that's. I mean, you study hormonal changes, for example. When people are experiencing intense hormonal change, it feels really vulnerable. It feels really scary. It's really, really uncomfortable. But that's when people lean into it. They get their most personal growth for a particular reason. And so when you start to feel yourself going into a period of tremendous change, biological change, psychological change, that's when you say, ah, I'm getting a signal from the heavens that it's time to learn something new, to grow as a person.

[A]

I think it's important for people to hear that so they don't feel like they're supposed to have it figured out during that time. And as uncomfortable as that time can be, and painful, really, that it's okay because you get to the other side if you. What you said, lean into it.

[B]

Totally, totally. And there's a lot of different kinds of transitions like that. Transitions between careers, transitions between marriages, transitions in your biology, just like you talk about an awful lot in your work. These are the magic times in life. They're the most uncomfortable for a reason. For a reason.

[A]

The most. The most. In every one of those, I see so many similarities and then so many ways it can go if you're fighting it.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

And it's easy to fight.

[B]

I help people get through that. I help people retire. I help people when they're thinking about how is it possible to love again? And I'm so interested in that because that's when you find that people become a new sort of person and a better sort of person as well. But not if they fight it. Not if you fight it.

[A]

Yeah, it's really fascinating how to do that. I want to ask you, though, talk about the path that got you here.

[B]

Well, I've done a lot of different things in my own career. As a matter of fact, I started off as a classical musician. As a matter of fact, all the way through my 20s, I was a professional French horn player. This is a great country, isn't it?

[A]

Do you still do it at all?

[B]

No, I don't but I did from the time I was 9 years old, and I did it until I was 31. So for 22 years, it was kind of my whole thing. As a matter of fact. As a matter of fact, I didn't go to college until I was in my late 20s and I played in the Barcelona Orchestra and had a kind of a nice classical music life. But I knew that there was something beyond that. So the first big turning that I had in my own life, it was in my late 20s when I realized I needed to do something else to support my family. And I went to college by correspondence and I got really interested in behavioral science. And science, I had no idea, but I became a behavioral scientist. I did that as an academic for 10 years, and then I left to run a company for 10 years. So I kind of go in these 10 year increments professionally. The hardest one of all, however, came in my mid-50s when it was time for me to step back from this CEO job that I had. And I was really lost. I was really lost. I was really worried about that. That's what I was talking about the very beginning of our conversation. And it's interesting because I didn't know if I could be happy because I was giving up something that was so prestigious. I was the CEO of this pretty famous organization. I wasn't as visible and famous as if I were doing the news every night on television like you. But I mean, it was a big deal.

[A]

It's who you're known as.

[B]

Yeah. It's actually how I saw myself. Here's the real problem. I know you look in the mirror and say, hey, that's the news anchor. Right. And I would look at myself and say, that's the boss.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. But I knew it had to actually change.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I started once again studying these people that had made these incredible transitions later in life and actually gotten happier and what they all had in common. And that's what I started to write about. Now, I didn't really intend for this to become a career in itself, your thing. I mean, it didn't. But, you know, I was working on this so I could find the answer, and my wife kind of found my notes. And she has always given me the courage to make transitions in my life because I know that, you know, Hard Landing is still with her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, of course we're going to land hard together. You know, you're coming with me. Yeah, that's right. I always say if you leave me, that's okay, but you got to take Me with you. And so the result of it was that when I wrote it up and actually into a book, a lot of people read it. And it turns out a lot of people were interested in this. So you. Your interest in menopause, for example, it was your particular interest that it turns out that everybody shared and you didn't know it. And that took a leap of faith. For me, it was like, what happens in your life when you know you're done with one thing, but you're not done with your life and there's something else to give. How do you find that new thing? And it turns out lots and lots of people were asking that question. There was nothing else written about it. And so that's how From Strength to Strength came about. And at the same time, I was moving on to taking a teaching position at Harvard, where I've been teaching the science of happiness for the past seven years. I write columns and books, and I

[A]

do a lot of media. I've been a column for the Atlantic.

[B]

It's been, I'm gonna give your resume. And it's been this unbelievable opportunity to do public education, to actually move out into the world and talk about how science can be in the interest of everybody watching us. And it's been an incredible opportunity. My second curve has actually become to be a professor in the public sphere, to bring these scientific ideas to life.

[A]

Could you have ever seen that?

[B]

Nah. When I was playing the French horn, I didn't see anything beyond playing the French horn. When I was a college professor, there was nothing beyond that. Now at this point, oh, yeah, maybe I'm 61. Maybe at 65, I'll go be a circus juggler. I was gonna say a firefighter. I don't know. No, probably not.

[A]

But nothing's off the table, really.

[B]

I sort of feel like nothing's off the table. There's certain things that are probably physically off the table, but.

[A]

Okay, me too.

[B]

But I feel like, I mean, at some point, I'm gonna probably slow down, but it's. At this point, it's just so exciting.

[A]

And I get excited for younger people to see that because I think I never saw anything. My mom died when she was 51, so I never saw a roadmap beyond that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So 51 was kind of like, I don't know what happens?

[B]

No, no, it was a cliff. Right.

[A]

It just stopped, and it was just kind of nothing there. And so it's been, I'm 55 now. And I was like, wait, how old? 55 now. And I really just so you're more

[B]

excited than ever, kind of.

[A]

Exactly. And that's a big point in there, you know, and then the question about the meaning of life and how we ask those questions. So when people ask you something, what are they really asking? When they ask you, what is the meaning of life?

[B]

Yeah, well, that's a big question, but that's sort of the new project. So that From Strength to Strength was a book that I wrote because I really needed it. And it's largely for people who are trying to design the second half of their own lives. This new book, the Meaning of youf Life, I'm writing it for my 28 year old students, which is also kind of for all of us. And the reason is because what I found in my research is the number one predictor of depression and anxiety is the inability to be able to articulate the meaning of your own life. And this is a new problem. This is not a problem that people were even thinking about in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. There's something going on where people have a hard time understanding, feeling, articulating, sharing the meaning of their life and it's making them horribly anxious and depressed. Especially young adults, but not exclusively young adults. So this is a book that looks at the science of how you find the meaning of your life and how to live differently in a way that's really helping me a lot, and my adult kids too, I'm sure.

[A]

Were we able to articulate it better before?

[B]

We were better able to understand it before. So probably your grandparents, if you'd said, grandma, what's the meaning of life? And she'd be like, what are you talking about? But she had a really, really good understanding of what the meaning of her life was. And so the result of it was that a lot of maladies that we have today of really rampant, what we call a psychogenic epidemic, which is just a fancy way of saying that people are suffering a lot with not a biological origin. We use fancy words in academia to get tenure.

[A]

I know I have to ask you like three times how to say it, what it means, how to spell it. I'm going to do that quite often.

[B]

But there's an epidemic of loneliness and depression and anxiety from young people that just absolutely didn't exist and is most correlated with my life feels meaningless. And so it's really, if your life feels meaningful, not whether or not you're able to put all the words around it. And your grandparents, they lived in a particular way that was incredib meaningful. And so this new Book talks about how we've changed our brains by accident and then how to heal our brains in the next six months. And so anybody has a real plan, kind of a six part plan as a matter of fact, on how we can actually find the meaning of our lives, that's kind of being fully alive in an old fashioned way is what it comes down to.

[A]

You obviously feel like this, but I went away over the summer and I read a book, like a hard book. Not on my iPad, not on my Kindle, not on my way. And that's what I did for my vacation. I read a book and I felt so whole after that, which seemed crazy to me.

[B]

I know. And you were, that's old fashioned. And your brain was actually changing.

[A]

I felt it. Like I came back from vacation and they were like, what'd you do? I was like, I read a book.

[B]

I know, it's like crazy.

[A]

Okay, you're wild.

[B]

I know, what a party. But what's happening fundamentally is that our brains are what neuroscientists call hemispherically lateralized. All that means is the two halves of the brain do different things.

[A]

The right and left.

[B]

The right side of your brain is more dedicated to mystery and meaning. Love, happiness. The left side of your brain is technical tasks. It's the what and how to. The right side of your brain is the why questions. The big why. The left side of your brain is what and how to. And you need both. I mean, you need to go out and get food and figure out how to get to work. And the right side of your brain tells you why you'd want to do that. Like, because I have people that I love that I want to support. The problem is modern life is shoving us into the left side of the brain and making the why questions harder and harder and harder to answer. And the more time you're spending online, the more time you're spending with your devices and with your screens, the less likely you are to be even considering questions of love, happiness, mystery and meaning in your life. And you went away on vacation and put down your devices and picked up a book and you were talking to actual humans and having eye contact like we're having right now. And it's like, why do you feel whole? Because your whole brain was working. Actually.

[A]

It's so crazy when I understand that it really does go back to as much as we say. We've advanced in so many ways. Our grandparents, they had a lot of the answers that they weren't aware that they had.

[B]

Oh yeah, no. Our brains are still, we're really in their current state about 250,000 years ago, the beginning of the Pleistocene, and they haven't changed very much. And we're made to live in small bands of 30 to 50 individuals. We are, yeah, we are. I mean, our brains are kind of evolved for us to work properly when we're in small groups where we know each other, we talk, we look at each other in the eyes, we eat together. You know, you're gnawing on a piece of yak meat while you're talking about your day. We're not made to eat doordash. Doordash while you're watching Netflix. We're not made to do that. And we're especially not made to live alone, which is really hard. So people who do live alone, they need more and more in person contact. One of the big predictors of depression, loneliness and anxiety is people who, they work alone, they live alone, their friends are on screens and they're mediating everything just using this left hemisphere of their brain. It's a real problem.

[A]

Is it all the digital that's done this? Where do you take it back to? It's not just it didn't start in 2020, but when you went back to school and you were seeing these university students all feeling the same way and realizing that, you know, you had to talk about it.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. And so what it is is that the technology has a huge role to play in this. But there's also kind of the hustle culture, the culture of work, work, work, work of achievement, as opposed to a culture of relationship that's been going on. And that's exacerbates the problem that we've got of having this screen based culture. And so the people who are really people in the mid-20s today, they have a particular problem. They don't remember the before times like we do.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And before times are like, you know, we get stuck behind screens too. And that's how you knew you needed to go away and get, take out your book and just be with your husband and have these relationships in person. A lot of people don't know. And so they think if I find the right hack, if I find the right protocol, if I find the right routine, if I find the right app, the right technology, then I'm going to be able to solve that. But they're going deep and deeper and deeper into the left hemisphere of their brain and you can't get to the right by going further and further left.

[A]

So how do you get to the

[B]

right the way that you get to your right is by living in a way that your grandmother would have taken for granted. And that means doing about six things that are indicative of this life of meaning. The first is to think more seriously about the big mysterious questions of life. The why questions of life. And every religion does this. It has these deep questions. Most religions are actually based on questions, not on answers. And this is a funny thing. Tamsen, do you remember when we were kids. I'm a little older than you, but when we were kids, do you remember Coco the gorilla?

[A]

Of course, yeah. Yeah, of course I remember Coco with the little kitten.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was a video of the kitten.

[B]

Right, exactly right. So Francine Patterson, Penny Patterson was her handler. Coco the gorilla. For those of those who are watching us, who are not 61, for those

[A]

of you who haven't heard of Coco,

[B]

kids these days, Koko the Gorilla was a lowland Ugandan gorilla, female gorilla, born in captivity, lived of a ripe old age of 46, but did this incredible thing from her handler, Penny Patterson taught her a thousand words in sign language. And everybody thought, well, this blurs the line between homo sapiens and non human primates. But it didn't at all. Because there's one thing that Coco the gorilla never did. She never asked a single question. The essence of true humanity is not answering questions. That's why AI is not human. That's why Google's not human. It's asking questions. The asking, the asking. That's what makes us who we are. So if you want to actually start to get into the meaning of your life, to open up the right hemisphere of your brain into the dark consciousness, the mystery, start asking deep questions that don't have answers.

[A]

What are they? What are some of the questions?

[B]

Why are you alive? Like, who created you and for what reason? For what would you give your life right now? Right now? Happily give your life right now? These are hard to articulate.

[A]

They're hard to hear.

[B]

Yeah. Why do you love your husband?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And almost anything you say, it's like, it trivializes it.

[A]

It does.

[B]

It doesn't feel big enough because he's good to me. No, I mean, like, yeah, so is your third grade teacher. You know, I mean, but those are

[A]

questions that you go, oh, I know. Gosh, I don't have a good. I have an answer. But I don't. But I do. But I don't.

[B]

Exactly. Right. And so one of the things that's really, really useful is that people. You know, when you have people over to your house and it's Just not that fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just like that. And the reason is because you never go deep. Right. And the times when people do come over and you didn't even know them very well, and you're like, that was so satisfying. The reason is because you went deep into the right hemispheres of your brain. So here's the way to do it. When you're having a dinner party with somebody, it's like, tonight, we're going to go deep or we're going to go home.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then by about 15 minutes in, here's the topic of conversation. What are you most afraid of? No, I mean, bring it on. Yeah, bring it on. I mean, this is life.

[A]

Otherwise, you're talking about the weather, and you know where you're going tomorrow.

[B]

And Junior had sailing lessons. It's like, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care about your vacation. Unless something big happened to your soul on vacation, then I want to know all about it.

[A]

You're so right, though. And those are the moments you remember otherwise. I found myself saying this recently. Like, I feel like I've had this conversation 50 times, you know?

[B]

Because you have.

[A]

Cause I have. Because I have. And so then, you know, when you say, why don't you like small talk? I'm like, cause I have it all memorized.

[B]

Right? Yeah, totally. Totally. So the big questions, and you in particular, I mean, you were in the public eye. I mean, you were the, you know, the great. You know, the queen of small talk.

[A]

The queen of small talk.

[B]

How many. Thank you, RJ cocktail parties did you suffer through? A lot, for sure. So that's. Number one is asking big questions. This will really open it up. Then there's a series of experiences that people took for granted that people are really not doing as much anymore. Number one's falling in love. Falling in love. Romantically, we're not falling in love anymore. Well, part of the reason is because we're turning off the right hemisphere of our brains. We're trying to solve love. You know, the left side of the brain does all the complicated stuff.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The complicated problems.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

Like fix something, getting to work, solving a task, turning on the computer, figuring out an algorithm, inventing an app. Right. The right side of your brain is the complex stuff, and that's different. Complex means easy to understand conceptually and impossible to solve. You just have to live complex problems.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Your. Your toaster is complicated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your cat is complex. That's why you love your cat.

[A]

Okay. Yep.

[B]

The most complex thing in my life is my marriage. It's very complex. I mean, I'm married to a Spaniard. So that man, that's complex.

[A]

Is she listening?

[B]

Probably. She's. We've been married 34 years, okay? And. And it's complex, which means that I understand love. I understand she loves me. I understand, understand. But I can't solve my marriage. It's unsolvable. It's only livable. These are the things. And the thing about romantic love is it's the most unsolvable thing that you have to live. And the more you try to solve it with technology, you're trying to solve it, the further away you're gonna get from it. And that's why you gotta give your heart away. That's why you need to have your heart broken.

[A]

It's so hard to tell somebody young that. But that is the way it is.

[B]

That's the way it is. And that's one of the things that we find because. Because suffering is one of the great secrets to meaning as well, is that actually we find. And so the more that you actually allow yourself to actually go into the deep space of unanswerable questions of cosmic love. I'm an old romantic, but the only

[A]

reason is because it's great.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the life in life. And there's less and less and less of that.

[A]

Not allowing yourself to fall in love

[B]

is a huge problem.

[A]

Huge problem.

[B]

Or trying to solve love with technology, for example. And one of the things that I find really encouraging is that the dating apps, which have been really a problem because more and more people, I mean, you have to be on dating apps to meet people. 62% of long term relationships start on dating apps today. But more and more people say they don't like the outcomes on the app, so they're getting more lonely and they're less likely to find a real attraction on the apps. The dating apps are more and more trying to not optimize time and app, but time in person. And that's a really good thing because that's really where it comes from. Is time in person where we're neurobiologically linked. Remember that we're supposed to. Eye contact, it's everything. Touch and eye contact are everything. It's a really interesting thing that I talk about with young couples and I work with young couples a lot. My wife and I actually work with young couples together. And there's a neuropeptide in the brain called oxytocin. You've probably heard of it. Oxytocin is also known as the love molecule, the molecule of bonding. Women have three times as much oxytocin as men. One of the best ways that you can get oxytocin is direct eye contact with the person you're in love with. With. It's like an oxytocin pump for the

[A]

woman or for both?

[B]

For both. So the woman gets three times as much oxytocin, but she also starves more because she needs more. One of the things that drives couples apart is that they don't look at each other in the eyes when they talk. Guys don't know this. She needs direct eye contact whenever you're talking. You can almost save a marriage by making eye contact. When you talk, your wife will stray from you emotionally because you're not looking at her in the eyes and she's not getting oxytocin, and she doesn't know what's wrong. And that's an example of the complexity that's hard to explain that you actually have to experience. Men need touch more. So one of the things that men need because they have more of this vasopressin, which is another neuropeptide that's of defense and loyalty in the warrior spirit. And I would fight a tiger for you. That's when you're walking down the street with your husband and you hook your arm into his.

[A]

Oh, man, he melts.

[B]

He's the king. He's the king. He's the king.

[A]

So men need touch no matter what kind of touch, back scratch, touch of hair, whatever it is.

[B]

But it's mostly. It's mostly that. Yeah, it's cuddling, but it's mostly just. It's the hand holding. Really, really important to men.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's like having his arm around you. Really important in sort of the masculine sort of touch.

[A]

My husband's gonna be so happy tonight. I'm gonna, like, link arms, let him walk away like the king.

[B]

These are two things that I recommend to every couple because it actually gets us toward. More toward the experience of the complexity that comes from romantic love. More eye contact and more touch abt. Always be touching. Always be touching abt. But always when you're talking, always be making contact.

[A]

It's funny. Eye contact. I feel like every once in a while I look up and I realize I haven't even looked at my husband to have a conversation because my head's been in the phone or it happens. I mean, it really is.

[B]

It's a bad habit.

[A]

Oh, I haven't seen you in a While.

[B]

I know. So at night, before you go to sleep, go to bed about 10 minutes earlier, read to each other. Reading to each other has an almost narcotic effect. I recommend love poetry.

[A]

Really? What do you read?

[B]

My wife will read me a Pablo Neruda. I mean, it's like the great Chilean love poetry, but the Psalms, the Song of Songs, you know, and it just. Something lovely.

[A]

I'm going to try this for like a week and I'm going to tell you what happens.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. And then for the last five minutes, look at each other in the eyes while you're holding hands.

[A]

That makes all the difference.

[B]

Oh, you sleep so much better. Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. You're holding his hand, he's looking you in the eye. We need this. We need this. We need this. And these are the kinds of deep, complex links that lead us to a sense, even if you can't articulate it, of life's meaning.

[A]

Do we need to have love to have a meaningful life? And does it always have to be romantic love?

[B]

No, but it's easiest with romantic love. And for most people, that is the case. There are many people who don't find their soulmates or they have a failed first big relationship or whatever it happens to be. And they can actually, you can get a lot of this through friendship, particularly women. Women through deep, deep, deep friendship can get most of the benefits that we get from this. The ideal combination is a great and great friendships and a great friend. But the truth is that if you can't have both, you need at least one. You need at least one.

[A]

I guess. I think a lot of women feel like they have to follow these timelines and feel like they're behind when it comes to these romantic relationships. So then they get in something that's maybe not the right relationship, but they're just hoping to find something that has meaning.

[B]

That's a problem, because that's a fear of future regret. That's actually a psychological problem, and it's a fallacy. Because if you're trying to rule out future regret by doing something that isn't right, you will get real regret.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I've had that one, too.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's like, I'm running out of time, so I'm gonna make this the best that it can actually be. I don't recommend marrying somebody you're not in love with. Yeah, I don't recommend that. Unless you're in an arranged marriage in a traditional culture and your parents are completely sure that once you Know each other, you're gonna be in love. Those actually work pretty well, weirdly, because your parents really. Yeah. Because your parents have very low divorce and dissolution rates, and your parents really not. They're like, yeah, they're gonna really love each other. Here's actually what they do. This is interesting. We. When we choose our mates, we choose too much compatibility. We choose people who are too much like us.

[A]

We do.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like on dating apps, for example, you want somebody who likes the same kind of music and votes for the same politicians and thinks that Austin is cool and they like to eat sriracha or whatever. Right. And what you're getting is your sibling, which is not awful. It's not hot.

[A]

It's not hot.

[B]

What you need is. It's not hot in any compatibility with values and then a lot of complementarity. And if your parents.

[A]

How do you look for that? How do you look for.

[B]

That's the problem.

[A]

Complementarity.

[B]

When somebody chooses for you, they find complementarity because they know. And so that's why matchmakers are so effective. Matchmakers get enough compatibility and a lot of complementarity where you complete each other.

[A]

That's an old school.

[B]

That's an old school matchmaker thing. But we're horrible matchmakers for ourselves because we're very narcissistic.

[A]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[B]

And so we look in the mirror and say, that's what I want. But that's not what you want. That's not what you want.

[A]

So what do you tell somebody who's listening now that's like, okay, I'm 20 something. I'm still, you know, I'm looking for the person I want to be with. I've tried the dating apps. They're awful. I don't want to swipe any which way anymore. And I don't have anyone to stare at every night when I'm in bed.

[B]

So ask. That means that that's when you put out an all points bulletin to your friends, your family, to everybody else to say, I want you to find the best person you can possibly find for me. I'm willing to take a chance on people that you think are really great for me. And again, you're gonna kiss a lot of frogs. Yeah, I know, but that's part of the deal. You kiss a lot of frogs. What your friends and family are not gonna find for you is what we call the dark triad, which is somebody who's very high in narcissism, Machiavellianism, and traits of psychopathy who has psychopathic traits. Tam said that's 7% of the population.

[A]

It is, yeah.

[B]

Let's just call that for everybody watching, that's your first husband.

[A]

Well, you're actually right.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of that. And women find this unbelievably seductive because guys who are very narcissistic, Machiavellian, meaning they're willing to hurt you and they're psychopathic, not like axe murderers, but they're pretty remorseless and unempathetic. They prey on women who really, really, really want to fall in love. And when people are setting you up, they're not gonna do that. That they know when somebody's a weirdo.

[A]

Yeah, they do.

[B]

You don't, because you're blind to it.

[A]

So what do you do to avoid that?

[B]

Well, to begin with, you have some bad experiences and you get some battle scars is what it comes down to. And then you make. You start thinking. You think retrospectively about what went wrong in your relationships. That's a very important thing to keep in mind is that is to do a little bit of a. To look back on it forensically and say, what am I not looking for this time? And there are. Are. There's a. There's a. Actually a syndrome called hemophilia. Not with an H. Hemophilia is a blood disorder. I was going to say is a small minority of women, but considerable enough, who fall in love super easily.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They fall in love too fast, and that's going through a neurochemical process in their brains of the sex hormones, followed by the dopamine and norepinephrine, followed by serotonin drops, and then just all these chemical changes in their brain that go too quickly and they actually have to self manage in a way because they know their particular tendencies. These are just walking targets for dark triad men.

[A]

Yep. And you know, I always say, like, there's a four season in my mind, like, you better go through a year. I want to see somebody during their holiday break. I want to see somebody in the summertime when I really feel like, you

[B]

know, see how they talk to their mom.

[A]

I want to see all of it. I want to see everything. Because if not you miss blips on the radar. And I guess being having gone through a divorce myself, I.

[B]

Bad divorce.

[A]

A bad divorce. I see those blips. Yeah, I had one of the hemophilia.

[B]

Yeah. No, that's the key thing. And so all of this is knowledge, all of this is experience. Now here's the interesting Thing to keep in mind, those terrible experiences are not something to bury or to be avoided because that suffering itself and all suffering is the next source of meaning. And this is a big problem that young people have today, is they're trying to avoid suffering. They're being told that sadness, that to be anxious is evidence that something's wrong with you. And that's actually not correct. I mean, it can be exaggerated. It can be a psychiatric problem that actually needs to be treated, for sure. But if you're not sad and anxious, you need therapy.

[A]

I know. Especially now, that's hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what do you recommend? Is it going through that pain or uncomfortableness? I mean, is that the third area

[B]

of it is to actually understand it and be thinking about what it is, what it actually is that I'm experiencing, as opposed to trying to avoid that. And so my students, I make them say, my suffering is sacred. My suffering is my teacher. Today is going to be a day that has some very beautiful and fun things, and I'm grateful for that. It's also going to have some difficult things, maybe some really hard things, and I'm grateful for that, too, because through that I'm going to learn and grow. So all I can say is bring it on.

[A]

What do you do? Do you actually sit in it? Do you actually have people sit in it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So an example of suffering.

[B]

An example of suffering is almost. There's little suffering, there's big suffering.

[A]

Sure. Of course.

[B]

And this is inevitable, by the way. So my students will ask, so, professor, or do I need to go looking for suffering and say, don't worry, it'll find you?

[A]

You've got to find you.

[B]

I mean, every 18 months on average, you have a big transition in your life. Ordinarily, it's not something that you initiated, so therefore, it's unwelcome. And every five years or so. This is from the work of Bruce Filer. Life is in the transition. So you probably know Bruce, right?

[A]

I love the book.

[B]

He's fantastic. That you have something that feels pretty catastrophic, as a matter of fact. So these things are going to happen with relative regularity. And to say, I am ready for this, I am courageous about this, this is something that's gonna be really hard. I know that in 90% of the cases or more, I'm going to come out of it stronger than I was going in. So I'm going to get a head start on being okay with this.

[A]

How do you get the head start?

[B]

By actually deciding to have a head start as opposed to listening to the propaganda and sort of the therapy industrial complex that out there that says that you're pathological if you're suffering, that you've got something broken if you're suffering. I mean, it's funny because, you know, people my age often think something's wrong with me. My back hurts. You're 61, of course your back hurts. It's the most normal thing. You know what would be really weird is if your.

[A]

Why do we think that nowadays? Why do we try to avoid suffering so much?

[B]

We try to avoid suffering because we have a culture that tells us that all suffering can be avoided.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, and grandma, you know, grandma knew that suffering couldn't be avoided and so she lived with suffering and that suffering, ironically itself became a source of meaning in her life as she went through growth and change. That's what.

[A]

And understood what part of life she was in versus trying to go back to the 20s.

[B]

Yeah, totally. And so not to mention the fact that we have a youth obsessed culture when it comes to physical suffering that says, well, there's got to be a way I can turn back the clock with this alteration, that alteration, this exercise program, this filter on my Instagram, at least people can think that I'm a lot younger than I am. And all that does is it makes it impossible for you to grow and change at an appropriate rate and understand the nature that, the suffering that you're experiencing, whether it's horrible suffering or just normal suffering, that's your teacher. And it's a source of meaning.

[A]

Tam Fam Tax season is one of the only times I usually sit down and look at the full picture. What I earned, what I spent, what I saved. And usually, I gotta tell you, it leaves me wondering where it all went. I have been using Monarch and I love it. It has helped me stop looking backward and start making intentional decisions about where my money's going next. Especially when it comes to investing a tax refund fund wisely instead of just letting it disappear. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is an all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. And these days I am all about ease. Here's what I like though. It brings my entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or your laptop. I love it on my app. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with code Tamson. What I appreciate is that Monarch keeps me focused on achieving milestones, not just tracking my spending. I can see all of it. Debt Payoff Timeline Savings Goals Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use code [e-mail] for half off your first year. That's 50% [e-mail] code tamson are you over 35 and confused about how to work out during perimenopause or menopause? I remember feeling exactly that way. My body was changing and I realized that the routines that once worked for me suddenly didn't make sense anymore. I didn't know where to begin. That's why conversations and real solutions around this stage of life matter so much to me. I'm excited to share a new midlife program that I contributed to with Megan Roop over at the Sculpsa Center Society. A digital fitness platform created for women. The midlife program was designed specifically for women in perimenopause and menopause. It includes a structured movement program, symptom based classes, and an expert LED guide to help you navigate this stage of life. The goal is simple to help you feel strong and at home in your body again. I had such a great time working out with Megan the last time I was in Los Angeles. She understands how women's bodies evolve evolve and built this program to support the changes that happen in midlife. The program includes workouts that help you build muscle, support bone density, improve mobility, strengthen your pelvic floor, activate your deep core and more. You can download the Sculpt Society app right now using code TAMSEN30. That's TAMSIN30 for your first month free and start the midlife program today. Do you think we're starting to remove the narrative of best years are behind us Youth obsessed culture? Are we making a dent at all in that?

[B]

I sort of think so. Although me too. Part of that is probably in your community and mine more than in the overall culture. Look, there's a reason that people are watching your show. There's a reason that hundreds of thousands, millions of people are watching your show. These are people who are like, look, I've had enough. I'm gonna be me. And I wanna be part of a community that accepts me for who I am. No, no, no. I wanna accept me for who I am. And I wrote a book called From Strength to Strength, Finding Purpose in the Second Half of Life. I mean, so I've got second half of lifers who are like, yeah, bring it on man, bring it on. Bring on the suffering. Yeah, for sure. Bring all of it on. Because that's actually Part of the adventure, I think, in the culture in general. We still have a lot more work to do. I think you and I need to expand our communities a lot more and to reach down much more into women and men in their 20s and 30s to help them understand that what they're going to experience is something they need to prepare themselves for and to celebrate it in advance.

[A]

Your new book is getting you ready to have from strength to strength. But until you do the first part. Okay, so it's a six step. It's a six pillars.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would you call it?

[B]

We talked about asking questions of falling in love and suffering.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We got some nowhere to go.

[A]

Okay, what's our next one?

[B]

The next one is what I call trends. Transcendence. And you might think of it as like spirituality or religion, but it's actually something more than that. It's standing in awe of something bigger than you to transcend yourself. All transcendent experiences, whether spiritual, religious experiences, or even serving other people, these really excite the right hemisphere of the brain because you're getting away from yourself. This intense focus on me, me, me, me, Tamsin is so boring. Life is so boring. When you're with yourself all day long. It's like, me, my roommate is me. I mean, it's just like. Like, it's just. We have this psychodrama. Mother Nature puts us into the psychodrama of the, you know, the intense scrutiny of ourselves. And I understand why Mother Nature does that, but she doesn't care if we're happy at all.

[A]

Right?

[B]

She just wants us to survive and pass on our genes. If you want to be happy, that's your business. And one of the two best ways of doing that are looking upward in awe or looking outward to serve other people. And that's the sense of transcendence, is the I self looking out as opposed to the me self looking.

[A]

I mean, in a day and age where everything is about you, your brand, your name, your social, your accomplishments, your.

[B]

It's all mirrors.

[A]

So how do you look out and up?

[B]

So the way that you do that is I recommend that everybody start getting serious about a spiritual or at least, or at least philosophical practice.

[A]

Okay. Do you feel like that happens? I notice that as people get older, they might go back to maybe what they were brought up with or find something else.

[B]

Yeah, they find something else, but they get a lot more interested in spirituality and religion. Religion. And part of that is when you're in your 20s and you're like, I don't know. I mean, you taught me In Sunday school that there was a good God and a merciful God. But I'm looking around all these starving children, so it's not consistent. I don't quite buy it. By the time you're in your 40s, you're like, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense out there. So I think I'm going to be okay with things not quite making sense because maybe I'm not the smartest person in the world. Maybe not everything has to make sense for me. There's a wonderful passage in the Hebrew Bible in the book of Genesis, Job, which we all know. You know, Job had a tough life. I mean, he was a good man. And then, you know, God took everything away from him. And, you know, he was tormented by Satan and all this. His kids all got killed, etc. At the end of the Book of Job in the Bible, he kind of. He interrogates God. This is wonderful thing, the 30th chapter of Job. And he says, like, you know, I was your boy. You know, I did everything right. And then you're like, you tormented me. It's like, explain yourself. And God. God gets all sarcastic. It's actually hilarious if you. God says, oh, yeah, I guess you do deserve an explanation. Obviously, you're so smart that you know why I made the heavens and the earth, right? So answer me that. Why did I make the heavens and the earth? You don't know. Oh, well, maybe you don't understand suffering either, Right. And the truth of the matter is that there's lots of stuff that we can't understand, and that's okay. There are things that we can't see, and that's okay. The truth is, there's a lot going on in the metaphysics of life, and we need to be in touch with that to get away from ourselves, to experience the divine love that is around us. That's why I recommend that we need a spiritual practice. We actually do.

[A]

Where do you send people to start with that? Because if you have somebody that goes, I don't know where to even begin with that.

[B]

I know. So it really starts with a lot of reading. Now, my students, many of them were raised in a religious tradition. I recommend that they go back to that like an adult for the first time.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

Because they actually have some wise. And so, you know, traditionally I was raised Catholic, but I haven't been a long time because I didn't like it. And I say, well, just, you know, go back. You don't need to go back. And Sit in the front row and you know, go to the back and sit in the back and read a couple of things and look at it non judgmentally because I bet you can't actually do it without judgment.

[A]

Don't try to have all the answers to it. Yeah, yep.

[B]

And if people are Jewish, it's the same thing. People who are, you know, raised in a particular faith. If not, then there's a whole. Actually on my website, I have a whole reading list. List that people can actually look at.

[A]

We'll link to that then because I think that's really important. So if you have some direction versus like go find that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, good luck to you. Just like go.

[A]

He said to do that.

[B]

Go find a guru. You know, it's like go to. Go to the Himalayas and go from cave to cave.

[A]

Yeah, we'll get them, we'll get them a list in the show notes, a

[B]

bunch of really, really good stuff. And reading is a great way to do it. But then, because what that will lead you to is asking questions, etc. Etc. But transcendence is critically important. That's a very right hemispheric activity and one of the most interesting adventures you can could actually have.

[A]

What's our fifth?

[B]

That's finding your calling. That's finding your calling. And your calling isn't necessarily your job.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But there is a calling in life. It's what you feel like you're meant to do. And people feel are often today forced into things that aren't their calling because they seem like the right thing to

[A]

do because they're good at it.

[B]

I see this a lot. I see this a lot with, with women, for example. And you know what? They, you know, they come into office hours and kind of close the door and they're like, yeah, you know, these are MBA students at the Harvard Business School. And they're like, I've got like nine job offers and it's really, really great. And I say, but I don't know, I'm not feeling it. And I'll say, okay, imagine yourself in five years. You're happier than you are now, 25% happier or something like that. There are three reasons in order. Tell me what they are. And they're like, how do I know? It's like none of you know. Tell me what the differences from now to then are. Number one and two are about love and relationship really always while they're talking

[A]

about a job, always.

[B]

Because the business school doesn't say, like, here's how to have a fulfilling family life. And So I say, okay, what are you spending all your time on? They're like, number three. Like. Yeah.

[A]

And what's number three? One and two.

[B]

Number three will, like, be career, your

[A]

money, or whatever it is.

[B]

Number one will be having a great marriage. Number two is having children, for example. Your love relationships are very important part of your calling. There's a lot that we can do, what we're actually called to do. And so what I recommend that people have an open mind and not be propagandized by the world.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

That means that they're being forced into career tracks that they might not like, that they're being called very special work machines, that they're going to fancy schools. There's so many more things in life, and to take a lot of different opportunities, to try different things, to do different jobs, to consider, you know, if you. If you want to have children, that you might want to take a few years off. All this is so good.

[A]

And it's okay.

[B]

It's not just okay. It's obligatory.

[A]

I think we need these permission slips, though. It feels like we do in this day and age. Or we'll choose wrong.

[B]

Or choose. Dr. Brooks writes the prescription right now. For everybody watching that you need to do a lot of different things and not have the world tell you what your calling is. You need to find your own calling.

[A]

Gosh, I would love to hear. I wish I heard it 30 years ago, but I feel like it's not too late.

[B]

But you had a great career.

[A]

I did.

[B]

And you really, really enjoyed it.

[A]

I loved it.

[B]

But it wasn't your calling later, which is why it was so important.

[A]

But I thought I had to choose.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

I thought I had to choose between getting married earlier, like family and career, because I was that generation that they said, you're gonna take how many years off, and then there's another girl right behind you that's ready to take that job. So I did feel like I had to choose to.

[B]

And they made you feel a little bit of panic, a little bit of fear.

[A]

Oh, sure. And that's how my first marriage happened. Because I got married, I was 34 or 33, and I'm like, oh, my God. You know, at that age. TikTok. And so that's what happened. Where's the first? All right, you'll do. And that's really. If I go back and look at it now, it's not what I thought was happening at the time.

[B]

Yeah, your calling was a little bit different than what the world was telling You. It was. And you weren't being true. No, because people generally aren't. No, people listen to what the world tells them. And by the way, parents give bad information to their kids, too, a lot of the time.

[A]

So if you have somebody that is saying, like, okay, I'm trying to figure out my calling, do you look at your relationship? Will relationships be the place that you're

[B]

going to find that, meaning they generally will be. And, you know, somebody who's going to support you in a particular career, somebody's going to make it possible for you to, for a while not have a career, whatever it happens to be, you know. And for women, it's actually a more difficult conversation than it is for men. And men suffer in a different way. And usually a little bit later, men have a hard time stopping doing what they were doing to support their families admirably. Women have a harder time earlier on because they have to make these life decisions that. That are in no small part biological in nature. And these days, kind of no matter what you do is wrong. So when my wife and I are talking to groups of young couples that are engaged to get married, and it's like, how are you going to make these decisions? I go, sit down.

[A]

What are the questions that you ask these young couples?

[B]

You know, Esther will talk to them about. She says, listen up, ladies. No matter what you do, you're going to feel like a loser. You're going to feel like a loser because if you stop, if you get like this big fan, see education, you stop and you say, no, I'm going to for a while, and I'm going to raise my children. People are like, you're wasting your education. What's wrong with you? What are you, a trad wife from 1955? And if you keep working, they're going to say, what's wrong with you? You're a terrible mother no matter what. So you got to figure it out for yourself and figure out what you're actually called to do and make your

[A]

own decision and be okay with that decision. Yeah.

[B]

And make sure that you're with somebody who supports you and who loves you, whatever you decide.

[A]

So you wrote a recent article in the Atlantic about the three rules to a happy marriage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can we go into those?

[B]

Sure. I have to remember exactly what they are. I write a column every week.

[A]

Do you want me to find them?

[B]

Would you?

[A]

Yeah, let me find them. Okay. I've got the three rules to having marriage. I'll just tell you. So here's the three.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, got it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Do you want to go through those or no?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So what are the. You wrote an article recently in the Atlantic about the three rules to a happy marriage. What are those?

[B]

Number one is. Is ruling out the alternatives to couplehood.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is it.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

That means slap on the handcuffs, man. That means it's like, it's us. It's us forever. It's us forever. I don't care what kind of crisis we go through. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. This is us forever. This is one of the great rules. And again, a lot of couples go into it saying, hope it works out.

[A]

We'll see.

[B]

It's the prenup mentality. Right? That's one of the great things about being Catholic is that you can't get a prenup. You can't get married in the Catholic Church with a prenup. It's not allow. But that's really important because say, this is it. This is it. This is it. And I know you had a really, really bad first marriage. My guess is that you slapped on the cuffs on the second marriage. Like, we're not getting divorced.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's like, this is like, if I'm getting married again, this is it.

[A]

Because I did not want to get married again. I was not. Like, was not. Well, I didn't think I wanted to get married again. I'll phrase that correctly. I thought like, oh, there is no way I'm going through that again. But then I met somebody that was completely, completely different. So different and so patient and couldn't even have been. And I say this often. I'm like, I wouldn't have picked him five years, 10 years ago. It was just not. That was not what I was looking for.

[B]

It's the total commitment. It's the total. That's. That's one. And again, you don't know.

[A]

No, you don't know.

[B]

You don't know. Because the truth is, one of you is going to die first. One of you is going to be left alone. And it's a horrible thought, but it's absolutely. But you know it's true. But what you want is to say, I will be looking at you as I take my dying breath.

[A]

Oh, my God, you brought that up. And I'm thinking about it in the back of my head recently, like, I just had my 55th birthday, and I'm like, somebody's gonna die first. And I hate those words coming outta my Mouth. But that is Ray.

[B]

You will love that. One of you looks at the others. He or she takes his or her dying breath. Yeah, because that's treasure. That's pure treasure.

[A]

All right, number two, stay positive.

[B]

Yeah, on that note. I know, I know. No, no, because this is positive. See, the thing is, it's funny, when I used to go occasionally and pick up my. I have three kids. My middle son is named Carlos, and Carlos is a character. You know, Carlos, he was a sniper in the Marine Corps. But when he was a little kid, he was like, junior version of the sniper in the Marine Corps. He was tremendous. And I used to pick him up from a nursery school, and he'd been having a great time. You'd see him just goofing off, and I would watch, you know, how you watch your kids, you know, from afar. And as soon as he would see me, he would burst into tears and come running over me and tell me all the horrors that had happened to him that day. And I'd be like, what gives? You know, what gives? Why is it that, you know, everybody else gets all the nice times and I get all the crummy times? The reason is because he trusts. Trusts me. He trusts me, he trusts me. Couples trust each other, and so they only bring home their garbage. They don't have the garbage. All. They have it kind of accumulating, but they don't show it to anybody else. And they get home, they're like, here,

[A]

is that okay to do?

[B]

And the problem is, it's not okay. I mean, you need to share to be sure, but you also have to bring home the positive. You have to bring home the positive. And so there are a couple ways to do that. Number one is you need to reserve beautiful things, and you have to lead with beautiful things before you actually say, and here's my garbage sweep, sweetheart, my

[A]

husband's gonna be so happy you said that. Because I do.

[B]

Of course you trust. He's the only one you trust.

[A]

He's like a big garbage disposal for me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. He's the trash compactor.

[A]

He is. Totally. He totally is.

[B]

The second. I mean, there's a bunch of different ways to be thinking about that that are really, really, really positive, but this is really the most. One of the most important things that we can remember is that you will tire out your partner. Another thing, a second way to think about this is that of course you're going to be hearing this from your partner. You're going to be hearing this from your spouse. Disregard negative feelings more in your spouse think more. And this is really important because a lot of couples that are really close, they're thinking about each other's feelings too much, and they're a little bit too influenced. And one of the characteristics that really happy couples that get happier as they go along have in common is they don't really. How do I put this? They don't care that much if their partner's bummed out.

[A]

Okay, well, that works.

[B]

It's like, she'll be all right. She's talking. Is that okay? She'll be right. It's completely. It's actually important. Important, because if. When you're bummed out, she's bummed out, and when she's bummed out, you're bummed out, you're going to be in a negative cycle a lot. You're going to bring each other down a little bit too much. And so that's an important thing for actually staying positive.

[A]

All right, and the third one is grow in spirit together.

[B]

Yeah, this is what I was talking about a minute ago. This is actually the idea that it's really successful couples, they tend to get more spiritual or religious together over time, and they really grow in parallel. They lead each other as spiritual teachers. And this has been super important. You know, my wife wasn't religious at all, and I was a lot more religious than she was when we first got married. And I was kind of pulling dragon and dragon and dragon. Now she's the one who leads me.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

And we pray together a lot, and we really. We read scripture together, and it's been a really, really important part of our lives, and it's bonded us together in ways that we never actually knew was possible. We still have problems, right? I mean, we'll be having this big fight, but it's like, okay, let's go to pray.

[A]

But isn't that nice? Well, you just celebrate an anniversary, too, right?

[B]

Yeah, my 34th.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

30. What is that? That's like. Like the. I don't know, like, gift that must go with that.

[A]

I didn't get there, Arthur. I don't know. Ter first married four years for this one. Yeah. So the last one. Four years.

[B]

Oh, four and four.

[A]

That was four. Yeah. But we were together eight. Yeah, four for this one.

[B]

And so you got 30 to go, and then you.

[A]

I got 30 to go, and I'll let you know.

[B]

I think you'll get there. I bet. I bet.

[A]

Let me ask you this. How do you know when a relationship is actually done? And I know that that's not what you're talking about when you're talking about these three rules to a happy marriage. But sometimes there is an ending to a relationship. How do you know that? As one party or the other?

[B]

So generally, you know, because one person leaves the other.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Generally speaking, one person says adios on that. And that's, you know, the ending that actually people come to. Now, you might say the marriage effectively ended years and years and years earlier. And you can kind of predate it. But it's. The schism is usually how it works out. And that's a sad thing. That's a really, really sad thing. And here's the thing to keep in mind. That's usually what's going to happen before you get married. What, you're gonna break up.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Breakups happen all the time. And so it's really, really sad before you're married too. But that's the normal course of events. You fall in love, you have to let yourself fall in love. Yeah. It doesn't work out. Your heart is broken. You learn, you try again. And that's one of the reasons that happy marriages, the happiest marriages, they generally start between the ages of 28 and 32. That's kind of the magic zone. Because it's a startup. It's not a merger. It is a startup for first marriages that are literally. They're not.

[A]

We had a merger.

[B]

Well, I mean, you're. But I know what you mean. You were both married.

[A]

I'm saying my second one.

[B]

Yeah, you were both married before. But the first one, generally they work the best if they're a startup and not a merger. Merger. And it's really not a hostile takeover and acquisition, if, you know, you get my drift.

[A]

You get your drift.

[B]

But it's still kind of a mature startup, you know, in your 20s, early 30s. And that's a really, really good thing. And so that's why it's like that. Because there's been a lot of heartbreak, there's been a lot of reps. There's been some experience that actually go into that.

[A]

The battle scars.

[B]

Yeah, totally. And that's okay. That's okay.

[A]

Who shops late at night? Because I know I'm not alone. Even if you don't want to admit it. Well, I do it. You know that late night scroll where you finally find the thing you've been looking for? You click, you add to cart, you get to checkout, and then it hits you. What email did I use, what password is it and where is my wallet? And I'm not getting out of bed to find it and then you see it that purple button at the top of the payment options. When you know, you know know. That purple button is shop pay and it makes checkout ridiculously simple. No digging for your card, no trying to log in. Tap one time. Try to remember your information. It's all right there. In a chaotic online shopping moment. It is the easiest part of the whole experience that's powered by Shopify. Shopify is e commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and about 10% of all E commerce in the US US from household names like Brooklinen and Alessi to brands just getting started. And if you're building your own brand, Shopify helps you create a beautiful online store with hundreds of ready to use templates so your site matches your style. It also helps you move faster with built in AI tools that can write product descriptions, create page headlines and even enhance product photography. And once you're live, Shopify makes it easy to run email and social media campaign so you can reach customers where they already are scrolling every single day or night like me. Plus Shopify keeps a business side in one place. Inventory, payments, analytics, shopping, shipping, returns so you're not juggling a dozen tools. See less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their shop pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Tammy Tamson that's shopify.com Tamsin shopify.com Tamsin you know that moment around 3 o' clock in the afternoon when you want like a little treat or something sweet. Not a full dessert but just something. I don't. I don't. Comforting I guess. I don't know. For me it's usually coffee, but I still want to support how I'm actually taking care of my body. And I have been loving Cachava's new coffee flavor. It tastes smooth. Smooth. It's made from premium decaffeinated Brazilian beans and it also gives me that crave worthy coffee flavor. But I know it also supports my whole body nutrition which is really important to me. What I appreciate about Cachava is that it's all in one nutrition. It's a shake crafted with high quality ingredients. No fillers, no nonsense, no garbage, just two scoops. Gives me 25 grams of plant based protein, 6 grams of fiber, greens, adaptogens and more and it supports my energy and digestion and strength all in one shake. By the way, there are seven flavors to choose from including Chocolate Vanilla, one of my other favorites, Chai Treat yourself to the flavor and nutrition your body craves. Go to kachava.com and use code TAMSIN for 15% off your first order. That's Kachava. K-A C-H-A-V-A.com code TAMSIN. Let's talk about women that feel. Because I do think that it's important to distinguish. But women that feel lonely in relationships. And I do feel like I'm seeing that more and more often, women being able to articulate it and talk about it and just feeling a little bit lonely in relationships. Why does that happen?

[B]

That happens because the deep, deep human connection between husband and wife has been attenuated. And by the way, it's normal. It's normal for periods and even good relationships. There have been times when my wife Esther has felt lonely in our marriage.

[A]

Did you know?

[B]

I did. I was working on my. My PhD for example. Or I'm really building my business and I didn't like it. I didn't want my wife to feel lonely. Or there have been times when I've felt lonely. When my kids were first born, and she's all about the kids. And I'm like the fourth child and the unloved fourth child.

[A]

You are. You're like one of the kids and you're the last one.

[B]

And those are normal periods of loneliness. And those are normal dynamics in a relationship. The problem is when there's no specific reason for it. And it goes on and on and on. And this has to do with when women feel like there's not a deep human connection with the one person with whom they're supposed to be fused. So they talk about one flesh. And it's often like that's taken as some sexual connotations. That's actually not. That's the fusion of the two right hemispheres of the brain together. That's the cosmic connection. Remember, the right hemisphere of the brain is the meaning part of the brain. And when your right hemispheres are communicating, that's one flesh. That's this antenna to the divine. And so one of the things that I recommend when couples. There is loneliness in a couple. Sometimes you can't fix it because one partner's like, yeah. Cause I'm kind of out of here. And that's a big problem, of course. And especially if they're really, really out of here, like completely emotionally detached or, God forbid, being disloyal. But if neither one of them wants that, then there's all kinds of protocols to feeling less lonely that have a lot to do by the Way with touch and eye contact. So that has. The neurobiology that's behind that. But actually doing things that are the most intimate things that you can do to fuse your right hemispheres. So, for example, for couples that are religious, one of the things they probably never do is pray together. Because that's like. That's really uncomfortable. That's really. I know couples that are, like, super Catholic. Esther and I are Catholic. We know couples that have been together for, you know, 60 years, and they've never prayed together. Really, because it feels too. It feels kind of weird.

[A]

But also, I was raised Catholic, and that's not anything we did because it's. You go back.

[B]

I bet your parents didn't pray together.

[A]

No.

[B]

And so that's the most intimate thing that you can do. And if you don't, you're not really just meditate together. Meditate together. Yeah, for sure. That's this really, really intimate thing because you're having a right brain experience simultaneously. That's why couples that are very religious, that actually engage in religious activity together, actually grow in religiosity together. Because what they're doing is they're fusing their brains. The right hemisphere. Well, really specifically in the right hemisphere. And that's like those old nuclear subs. When launch a missile. You gotta have two keys. Yeah, you gotta have two keys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

His key and her key. You turn it on. It's almost a divine experience that you're having. This transcendent experience that you're actually having that is the cure for loneliness is

[A]

that when you make yourself a little bit smaller than the rest of the

[B]

world, it's an experience of the world where it's us, not me, it's us, not me. It's we. It's us. It's like the tiny team, which is what we're missing. Yeah, totally. Now, there's a one other time of loneliness that it's hard to cure, but there is a cure for it, and that's with kids. This is when couples really kind of start to fall apart, is when with kids, kids get between the couple, no

[A]

matter what age or when they're kind

[B]

of any age, but especially when they're little or when you have. When you have teenagers. And one of the things I recommend to couples is remember it's you against them. It's. It's like mom and dad against the little ones as team parents and team kids.

[A]

Yeah, it's hard to remember that mom

[B]

and the kids versus.

[A]

That's hard to remember that sometimes.

[B]

And once it's the two them of you together, you'll be like, yeah, baby, it's you and me. It's us against them. I don't think they're going to win today. I think we're going to win today.

[A]

All right, so we have two. Do we have two more to go?

[B]

Yeah. Did you keep track or. I guess we really have one because we did five.

[A]

We did five.

[B]

Okay, one more one is experiencing more beauty in life. Life today isn't very beautiful. You know that. And the part of the reason is because. Well, a part of is technology. Technology mostly isn't beautiful. I mean, if you're looking, if the sum total of your experience of nature is seen through your computer screen, that's sad. You know, the average child today spends between four and seven minutes a day in nature and between four and seven hours a day behind a screen. That's exactly backwards. And the result. That's one of the reasons that there's so little sense of meaning, because you're forcing into the less hemisphere of your brain where you're getting a simulation of the beauty in life and the beauty in nature. Meaning can't be simulated. Beauty really can't be simulated either. And you can say, yeah, wow, it's a beautiful sunset that I took a picture of. Now I'm looking at it on my phone, right. It's not the sunset. It's not the same experience.

[A]

Pinching it open and closing it.

[B]

This is one of the reasons, by the way, that you'll lower the meaning that you feel on your vacation by 16% by taking pictures.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[A]

So do you not. Do you take. You don't think you should take pictures on vacation or within?

[B]

Yeah. I recommend that one person be assigned to take pictures on your vacation each day.

[A]

One person.

[B]

One person per day. And that nobody else gets to take any pictures the whole day.

[A]

And it makes a big difference.

[B]

Big difference. Yeah. Because if you're looking through the screen to take a picture of the thing that's right in front of you so that somebody else can enjoy it, maybe you, in two years, guess what you've done? You've turned your experience into a simulation of the experience.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

You've turned a right brain experience of beauty into a left brain simulation of the beauty that you thought you once were experiencing, but not.

[A]

It's so true. I know when I go to a live concert or something and everyone has their phone up but no one's actually watching what's going on.

[B]

It's so dumb.

[A]

I mean, it's kind of hilarious to look at, but it's sad. It's really sad.

[B]

They're not alive right now. What they are is thinking about the future, when they will be looking back and this will be in the past

[A]

or never look at it, by the way.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Never look at it.

[B]

We're funny about time travel. So the executive center of our brain, the prefrontal cortex, was like the supercomputer of our brain. It allows time travel, which is why Homo sapiens are so successful as a species. You can think about the past and you can go back and redo the past and think of a better future so you don't make the same mistakes that you made before. You can go into the future and imagine something that hasn't happened and say, well, that wouldn't be good and not do things that. Or you can be here now, which is what we're most.

[A]

Not 100%, we're not.

[B]

And we're not alive. You know, there's the famous Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese Buddhist monk. He wrote this great book called the Miracle of Mindfulness that starts with this scenario of washing the dishes. He says, when you're washing the dishes, you should be thinking about washing the dishes, because if you're not thinking about washing the dishes, you're not fully alive while washing the dishes, and you're not really alive right now. Are you care of the soul? And it's true. And so if you're taking pictures for social media or for yourself to enjoy your vacation two years from now and you're missing it now, how ironic.

[A]

It's unbelievable.

[B]

And that's a problem, and that's a meaning problem. And so beauty is something you need to experience right now in real life. And there's three kinds. There's artistic beauty, there's natural beauty, and there's moral beauty. That means seeing people doing beautiful things for others, like. Like reading the biography of Mother Teresa. Okay, for example. Or seeing somebody who truly is helping other people to see acts of heroism, to experience something that people give of themselves, to see people who've given their life in battle so that you can live the life that you actually live. It's a beautiful thing. And those acts of moral beauty, natural beauty, artistic beauty. That will give you a true sense of the meaning of your life.

[A]

When you look at your students who come in and then have gone through this and really understand all of these, do you see something really different in them when they come back and really get it?

[B]

It's a Miracle. It's like watching a miracle unfold. And it's funny because they're living now in an extraordinary way that was utterly ordinary 100 years ago.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Utterly ordinary. You know, it's funny, our grandparents, their lives were difficult and boring and all that, but they never look back on it and say, my life was so

[A]

meaningless, you know, did it shock you to hear that? That people have no meaning or feel no meaning?

[B]

It really did, because, you know, when I was looking at it, you know, and I do research on this, you know, I'll see the. I see the epidemic of loneliness, of depression, of anxiety, and I start interviewing when I see all these data just to kind of get, you know, how you do it as a journalist. You journalists are the best at this because you start doing these interviews and you start seeing a word drop, and you go, patterns. And the pattern. It's like the journalists are the best at pattern recognition, right? And they started saying, I don't know what I'm meant to do, or my life feels empty and meaningless, or, you know, I don't know the meaning of my life again and again and again, again and again. Or they'd say, my life feels like a simulation of real life. I mean, I go to work on Zoom, and I date on the apps, and my friends are on social media, and I get my sense of accomplishment from what I'm doing playing video games, and it's not real. I feel like I'm in the Matrix.

[A]

You're on the outside looking in.

[B]

And so these are the things that I'm actually looking for. And it surprises me, but it kind of doesn't. Because in the moments in my life where I've remained needed help. It's because I was doing all these six things wrong, and I was losing the sense of meaning in my own life. When I left my CEO job, that led to. From strength to strength, I had this really interesting experience. I'm like, I don't know what I'm meant to do, which is a meaning problem. And so I walked.

[A]

You asking that question, I can feel it, because I know you know it

[B]

because you felt it too.

[A]

I felt it, too.

[B]

What am I meant to do? So I did what people have done for thousands of years. I went for a long walk. It was like you with your book. I walked the Camino de Santiago, which is this long walk walk across northern Spain.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

After I. Like a day after I retired at 55, I went to Spain with my wife, and we started walking, and I wanted to do the whole 800k walk. And she's like, no. So we did the last 160k, but that was enough. Because you're tired and you're in pain and you've got blisters and you're basically. You beat yourself into submission and you're not looking at your device and you're with your beloved and you're praying every day. You're doing all the six things and you're seeing unbelievable beauty. You're outside in northern Spain. All this, like, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. You're asking these deep questions, you're having these deep conversations. You're doing all these six things. I didn't know it. I didn't know it. And on the last day, my meaning found me. It found me because I was open to it. I'd been in this. The aperture had been open because in the last week and a half, I'd been living like my great grandparents, parents. And the meaning that found me was that I was gonna spend the rest of my life lifting people up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and love, using science and ideas. I'm here talking to you right now because I was actually able to turn the key in the lock, open the right side of my brain. And that's what I hope I can bring to others as well.

[A]

You did it. You opened mine. And I didn't even know. I didn't even know it was closed. Really. I didn't. Why do you think that friendships matter so much to meaning? Because I do think that that's a big part of this, too, that we. We miss.

[B]

Yeah. So real friendships. Now, this is different than virtual friendships. And real friendships are not the same thing as deal friendships. As, you know, when you were, you know, a big shot in the news, it was a lot of deal. A lot of deal. A lot of deal. It was relationships that you have with people who are very, very useful. And again, I got nothing against that. I have work colleagues, and it's very important. And I deal with people who are, you know, investors and the projects that I have going on. And deal is great, but you also need the real, real. And those are the useless. Those are people who. They don't need you. They just love you. And so when I talk to people who feel really lonely even though they're around people all day long, I say, okay, let's take a list, let's take out a piece of paper, and let's write down the 10 people that you spend the most time with on any given day. Write them down now. I want Rs and Ds. That doesn't mean Republican and Democrat. That means real and deal, which are real friends and which are deal friends. And for lonely people who are around people all day long, it's Aldi's. It's all Aldi. Or it might just be all these, which is real, virtual, and much worse.

[A]

How do you find the reals?

[B]

The real. You got to do the work. And busy, successful people, strivers, they don't do the work. So I'll find really lonely moms who. They don't have time to connect with their friends. They don't. I mean, it's like, especially if they're working full time and they have little kids. I mean, you're done. You're cooked. But you have to find the time. You have to do the work. You have to connect with the people in your life. And this was a really big thing for me because when I was a CEO, I mean, it was all deal, deals, DDDD in there. And so when I left, I actually reestablished relationships that I really cared about an awful lot. Spending, you know, making new. I made a bunch of new friends I didn't have before, and old friends. I really deepened people who know me extremely well. For men, this is super important, too, because men, like, 60% of men my age, their best friend is their wife.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And only 30% of their wives say their best friend is their husband.

[A]

Those numbers don't add up very well.

[B]

I told my wife. She's like, huh, that's weird. You don't say so. Yeah. You know, and that's. Sometimes, you know, this is one of the reasons that men tend to die so quickly after their wives die because they've lost their only friend.

[A]

That's their best friend.

[B]

They're alone. They're profoundly alone in the universe, and there's no more reason to live if you're truly alone. You're not supposed to be alone. People aren't supposed to be alone.

[A]

When people are alone, what is the. What is. What is the thing that they should be doing? Cause my dad lost two wives. But he seems the happiest he's ever been. No, no. But he seems the happiest he's ever been. Right now he's 85 years old, but he goes to pottery class. He has a men's group. He sees my nephew. He's always.

[B]

He's built his relationships.

[A]

He's built his relationships.

[B]

He actually did the work. He actually. And many guys don't know that. Especially real hard, charging, strivers you know, the lawyer guy who they're forced to retire, for example, they don't even know. I mean, why do I go to a pottery class? That's for losers. Any loser can do a bad piece of pottery. You can't win a case in front of a jury with a slate. I know. Their whole sense of self is not in terms of relationships. They're not human beings. They're human doings. And human doings, they don't have enough love. They don't have enough room for love in their hearts. And so I have to do, like, basic work on guys like this.

[A]

Hard work.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, you got to take them apart piece by piece and put them back together again.

[A]

Quite frankly, if there's one thing you want people to take from where you are talking about the meaning of life, to get from strength to strength, what would that be?

[B]

Yeah, that would. The thing that the through line, and it's really been the through line of our whole conversation here, is that happiness really is love. Now, what is love? Love isn't a feeling. It's to will the good of someone else as that person is to will somebody else's good. That is the most profound experience of life itself that you can have by truly willing somebody else's good. This is why marriage and kids are so good for most people. That's why profound friendship is so important. That's why serving other people. That's why a relationship with your creator is so critically important. But that's the one thing to keep in mind. If you truly love, you will find meaning. If you truly love, you can go from any part of your life to any other part part of your life. And if that's the part of your life that you actually need to repair, then that's the thing to get after right now, is your relationships. It's true love, Arthur.

[A]

Thank you. I could sit here with you for hours.

[B]

Thank you, Tams.

[A]

I really appreciate it. I think everything you're talking about is beyond necessary. And so much of it I've lived now, so I felt it, and I appreciate you for it.

[B]

Well, thank you. You're bringing a lot of good to all of us through what you've experienced and what you're bringing. And I can't wait to hear all the other things that you'll be doing over the next 5, 10, and 20 years.

[A]

I hope we have you back.

[B]

I'd love it.

[A]

All right. If you want more of Arthur Brooks, make sure to pre order the meaning of your life. Finding purpose in an age of Emptiness. It comes out March 31st. We'll leave the link for you in the show. Notes and I cannot wait to hear what you took away from this episode because I'm sure it was a lot. If anything resonated with you, take a moment, leave a review wherever you are listening because it means more than you know and I'll see you in the next episode. Episode Today's podcast is sponsored by Midi Health. So many of you know this, but I was dismissed over and over again when I was struggling with perimenopause symptoms. I didn't even know I was in perimenopause. It is so important you're getting care from someone that specializes in women in midlife and that they're willing to have the hormone therapy conversation with you. I get questions from you every single day about where to go for support and I'm always suggesting Midi Health. It's covered by insurance and you don't even have to leave your house. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script, visit join midi.comtamsen today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's joinmitty.com Tamsen Midi the care Women Deserve this episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Co. No matter how you do game day on the couch, in the crowd or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right, right in with a full lineup of non alcoholic beer styles you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the fridge for tip off with a variety of non alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com near Beer Fit for all Times the UPS Store is making packing and shipping Easter gifts quicker than ever this year with upsa. How quick? Quicker than a walk around the park? Quicker than eating all the Easter candies? Quicker than finding a golden egg that you know is stuffed with cash. When you ship UPS Air at the UPS store, your items arrive on time or your money back, guaranteed at no extra cost. Exclusively at the UPS Store US Retail locations. Send Easter joy on time at the UPS store. Visit the upsstore.com air guarantee for full details. Terms and conditions apply.