How to Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty

Summary

The Tamsen Show: How to Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Tamsen Show
• Host: Tamsen Fadal
• Guest: Terri Cole, Psychotherapist, Author, and Boundary Queen
• Release Date: May 14, 2025
• Description: Hosted by Emmy-winning journalist and New York Times best-selling author Tamsen Fadal, the show offers real talk and real solutions for women seeking to understand their bodies and lives better. This episode delves into setting boundaries without the accompanying guilt, a crucial skill for reclaiming personal peace and enhancing relationships.

---

1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode titled "How to Set Boundaries Without Feeling Guilty" focuses on empowering women to establish personal boundaries, particularly addressing the challenges faced by those who identify as high functioning codependents (HFCs). The conversation is anchored by insights from Terri Cole, a renowned psychotherapist and author who specializes in helping women break free from people-pleasing behaviors.

2. Guest Introduction: Terri Cole

[00:55] Terri Cole: "Today's episode is for the woman who has been everything to everyone. And finally asking, what about me?"

Terri Cole is introduced as a boundary queen with decades of experience assisting women in overcoming people-pleasing, perfectionism, and high-functioning codependency. Her expertise makes her an ideal guest for discussing the intricacies of setting healthy boundaries.

3. The Problem: High Functioning Codependency (HFC)

[08:27] Tamsen Fadal: "Being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the circumstances, the situations, the finances, the careers, all the things of the people in our lives to the detriment of our own internal peace."

High Functioning Codependency is characterized by an excessive investment in others' lives and well-being, often at the expense of one's own mental and emotional health. This behavior stems from societal conditioning that glorifies being "nice" and accommodating, leading to self-abandonment and inner resentment.

4. Understanding HFC: Definition and Examples

Terri Cole and Tamsen Fadal discuss the nuances of HFC, emphasizing that it goes beyond traditional codependency. Unlike classic perceptions that associate codependency with dependence on others, HFCs are often self-reliant and take on the emotional labor of those around them.

[08:43] Terri Cole: "We're all overly responsible for others' happiness, which doesn't have to be our burden."

Common behaviors include auto-advice-giving, over-accommodating in social situations, and striving to control outcomes to placate others. For instance, automatically offering solutions to people's problems, even unsolicited, is a typical HFC trait.

5. Consequences of HFC

Living as an HFC can lead to significant emotional strain, including:

• Resentment: Persistently putting others first fosters inner resentment towards those being helped.
• Exhaustion: Continuously managing others' needs drains personal energy and leads to burnout.
• Strained Relationships: Attempts to fix others' problems can hinder genuine intimacy and mutual support.

[06:03] Tamsen Fadal: "Being how like everything becomes so irritating."

6. Strategies to Overcome HFC

a. Resentment Inventory

A key tool introduced is the Resentment Inventory, which helps individuals identify areas in their lives where they may be over-functioning or over-giving.

[17:43] Tamsen Fadal: "You write down what you're feeling resentful about and take ownership of your part."

b. Setting Boundaries

Terri and Tamsen emphasize the importance of setting clear, honest boundaries to prevent self-abandonment.

c. No Auto-Yes

One effective strategy is the practice of "No Auto-Yes," where individuals refrain from automatically saying yes to requests and instead take time to consider their own needs and capacity.

[34:04] Tamsen Fadal: "For the next seven days, no matter who asks you what, nobody is saying an automatic yes."

d. How to Say No

They provide practical scripts and techniques for declining requests gracefully, ensuring that boundaries are respected without guilt.

[35:25] Terri Cole: "You can say, 'I'm sorry, but I can't commit to that right now.'"

e. Physical Techniques

Incorporating body language to support verbal boundaries, such as raising a finger to signal the need to finish speaking, helps reinforce the message.

[52:15] Tamsen Fadal: "Hold up one finger and say, 'Please let me finish what I was saying.'"

7. Impact on Relationships

Shifting from HFC behaviors to healthier boundary-setting fosters more authentic and meaningful relationships. It allows for genuine support rather than one-sided assistance, enhancing mutual respect and understanding.

[30:21] Terri Cole: "That's where the intimacy is built."

By moving away from the need to fix others, relationships become more balanced and rooted in mutual support rather than dependency.

8. Special Focus on Midlife and Menopause

The episode also touches on how midlife transitions, such as perimenopause and menopause, can intensify feelings of frustration and the urge to over-function. Hormonal changes reduce tolerance for stress, making boundary-setting even more crucial.

[05:20] Tamsen Fadal: "As your hormones are getting less, your tolerance for bullshit is getting less."

9. Tools and Resources

Both hosts recommend resources to aid in breaking free from HFC patterns:

• Resentment Inventory Worksheet: A practical tool to identify and address sources of resentment.
• Terri Cole’s HFC Toolkit: Available at terricole.com, offering structured guidance and actionable steps.
• Scripts for Setting Boundaries: Included in Terri Cole’s book and online resources, providing sample dialogues for various scenarios.

10. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the benefits of setting boundaries:

• Enhanced Self-Love: Prioritizing personal needs fosters genuine self-love.
• Improved Mental Health: Reducing over-functioning leads to decreased stress and increased emotional well-being.
• Deeper Relationships: Authentic connections are built on mutual respect and understanding.

[55:37] Terri Cole: "Your needs matter too. And it's never too late to rewrite your relationship blueprint, starting with the one you have for yourself."

Final Thoughts: Setting boundaries is not about being selfish but about preserving one's mental and emotional health. By implementing the strategies discussed, women can reclaim their lives, experience true intimacy, and lead more fulfilling lives without the burden of guilt.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Terri Cole [00:55]: "Today's episode is for the woman who has been everything to everyone. And finally asking, what about me?"
• Tamsen Fadal [05:20]: "As your hormones are getting less, your tolerance for bullshit is getting less."
• Tamsen Fadal [17:43]: "You write down what you're feeling resentful about and take ownership of your part."
• Terri Cole [34:04]: "You can say, 'I'm sorry, but I can't commit to that right now.'"
• Tamsen Fadal [55:37]: "Your needs matter too. And it's never too late to rewrite your relationship blueprint, starting with the one you have for yourself."

---

Resources:

• Terri Cole's Website: terricole.com
• HFC Toolkit: Available for download at terricole.com/HFCtoolkit
• Terri Cole’s Podcast: The Terri Cole Show

For more insightful conversations and tools to enhance your well-being, subscribe to The Tamsen Show and follow @thetamsenshow on social media.

Transcript

[Tamsen Fadal]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game?

[Terri Cole]

Well, with a name your price tool.

[Tamsen Fadal]

From Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills.

[Terri Cole]

Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Monday.com Ad]

Dear old work platform. It's not you, it's us. Actually, it is you. Endless onboarding, constant it it bottlenecks. We've had enough. We need a platform that just gets us. And to be honest, we've met someone new. They're called Monday.com and it was love at first. Onboarding. Their beautiful dashboards, their customizable workflows got us floating on a digital cloud nine. So no hard feelings, but we're moving on. Monday.com, the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Terri Cole]

Today's episode is for the woman who has been everything to everyone. And finally asking, what about me?

[Tamsen Fadal]

You've been taking one for the team for decade.

[Terri Cole]

I'm talking to psychotherapist, author and boundary queen, Terri Cole. Terri has spent decades helping women break free from people pleasing perfectionism and high functioning codependency.

[Tamsen Fadal]

You're probably over functioning or over giving what you're feeling. We were all indoctrinated into the cult of nice.

[Terri Cole]

Terri is here to teach us how to recognize our own resentment as a signpost, how to stop abandoning ourselves in relationships and how to reclaim our voices, especially in midlife.

[Tamsen Fadal]

As your hormones are getting less, your tolerance for bullshit is getting. We get so sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[Terri Cole]

This is not self help, it's self advocacy.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Before you take on another thing, this year or the rest of your life, you're gonna ask two questions.

[Terri Cole]

So let's get started. Terri, it's good to see you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

You too.

[Terri Cole]

I brought all this together just so I could have more time with you, my friend.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I love it. Thank you.

[Terri Cole]

We've known each other a long time. We've talked about a lot of different things over the course of the years. But for people that are meeting you for the first time, and I want to make sure they know everywhere to go to find you. But first of all, where you came from. Because you have a really interesting story. You did a pivot before we were talking about pivots.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I guess I did. I was a talent agent negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities. That was the last four years of my career. I had done other things before, before I became a psychotherapist and I had gotten to a point in my own therapy. Part of what motivated me was my experience in therapy. I just couldn't believe it. I was like, wait a minute. I could just learn about myself and change my life. Amazing. Why isn't everyone doing this? I felt like it was the worst kept secret. I was like, do people know what happens in therapy and what you can do with your life? And so, even though I was very ambitious and so I was literally leaping up the Hollywood entertainment ladder. Hollywood, New York, both. I was not, you know, I was getting less and less fulfilled in that space. And then by the end, I just couldn't deny that I didn't give a crap about the movie deal or the Pantene deal and that all I cared about was the mental health of my clients. I was endlessly getting people into drug treatment clinics, eating disorder clinics, therapy, like.

[Terri Cole]

So you were a therapist while you were an agent?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Definitely. I always had the heart of a therapist, I think. And I finally, even though it's funny when you leave a lucrative career that looks very fancy. Not that you would know anything about that. People are like, PS, what is wrong with you? Like, I remember telling my father, I was like, oh, I'm quitting my fancy ass job running a talent agency and I'm gonna go to NYU and get my mast to become a therapist. He was like, why? And literally said, sounds weird.

[Terri Cole]

Is that what he said?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, literally. Those are his words. I was like, thank you for that.

[Terri Cole]

He didn't say no, so that's good.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Well, who the hell was asking him? I was already in my 30s and I didn't need anything from him. I, I, I said to him, well, all I need from you is your support because I don't need anything else, cuz I'm paying for it myself, so. And of course he, he eventually got on board, but a lot of people were like, why?

[Terri Cole]

Sure.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And I just wasn't fulfilled anymore. And I knew I was like, making Naomi Campbell richer can't be my Dharma. Like, it must be something else. No offense to Naomi Campbell, but it just can't be the thing that I'm put on earth to do. And the first time I took a non matriculating course at nyu, before I pulled the trigger, I like, took a few courses in ny.

[Terri Cole]

What course?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Non matriculating meaning.

[Terri Cole]

Oh, non matriculating. I didn't even know that word. Go ahead.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That means you're not enrolled. Yes, but I took an abnormal psych course and I just, the second the professor started talking, I was like, oh, yeah. This is exactly where I'm supposed to be. I was so excited. And that was 27 years ago and I'm still so excited.

[Terri Cole]

I know, I know you are. And you know, you've written so many books now, more to come, a lot to say. And everything. What I love about you is everything relates to what we're doing day to day. It doesn't have to be that this is a long term, even though I know you do that, but it really is day to day advice. So I want to talk about some of it because I, I wanted to bring you in. I think that when women hit this perimenopause, obviously menopause and midlife, this is a whole other new phase and very, very different and oftentimes hit a wall. I certainly did hit a wall. The now what, what's next wall. But why do women during this time in particular do that?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Well, part of it is as your hormones are getting less, your tolerance for bullshit is getting less, you hit a wall. Because we're just, we get so sick and tired of being sick and tired. And when you don't have all this estrogen to buffer your mood, to be flowing some dopamine to you, you're like, literally, no, stop chewing. You're annoying. Like, it's amazing the things that. Now, I'm not saying chewing is something we tolerate, but it's just an example of the things that my therapy clients would complain about to me with their.

[Terri Cole]

Partners or whoever was around them.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. Being how like everything becomes so irritating. And so I think that it's a combination of taking one for the team, especially if you're a high functioning codependent. You've been taking one the team for decades.

[Terri Cole]

Yes.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And there's a part of, I think, you know, I call it the chickens coming home to roost. Because the pattern that I've seen is over and over again, women, early 50s, who are just like, no. And they story. And one thing that I will. Anybody listening who's you're identifying with this. I always have my clients do an inventory and you just answer the question, what am I tolerating? And then we're gonna do it in every area of your life. And it could be small things like in your house, let's just say in your office, there's like a light that is really bright and you don't have.

[Terri Cole]

To, oh, wow, you go very granular.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, we're gonna go granular and go change that bulb if it's bothering you. Cause there's a lot of Things that we can prioritize our own preferences, but a lot of times we don't. So that's one of the things that I always encourage my clients to do that make the small changes that you can make, because that is very soothing to the nervous system as well. But then it could also be as big as I had one clients during the pandemic. You know how everyone was drinking alcoholically during the pandemic. And I knew she wasn't an alcoholic because she was a long term, but she was stressing and she was like, I don't want to drink during the week. You know, hold me accountable. I was like, okay. So then she kept failing not drinking during the week. And then I was like, there's definitely more to this than this, so let's see what it is. And I asked her what I call the secondary gain questions. And I just asked her, okay, just without thinking about it, just answer this. What do you get to not face, not feel and not experience by drinking three or four big girl glasses of wine a night? And she immediately said that my marriage is over.

[Terri Cole]

Wow. Wow.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But those questions, if you're stuck anywhere in your life, right, because our brains make sense. We make sense. So secondary gain is not primary gain. Go to the gym because you want to be physically. Well, sure. Secondary gain is the hidden benefit that we get. And so what was the hidden benefit that she was getting was numbing her feelings of urgency towards her situation in her marriage.

[Terri Cole]

How powerful is that? And she knew instantly. She knew instantly.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

You brought up high functioning codependent. And you know, your book is too. A guide to breaking the cycle of High functioning codependency. Let's define that for people that don't understand. They'll understand as soon as they hear the definition. But what a high functioning codependent is.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It is you or you.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Being overly invested in. Or me being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the circumstances, the situations, the finances, the careers, all the things of the people in our lives to the detriment of our own internal peace or to the detriment of our financial well being or psychological or emotional well being. So what this means, and it's important to make this distinction because all of us are lovers and sisters and friends and mothers and cousins and aunties and obviously the people we love, we want them to be happy. But this is not that. This takes it five steps further where instead of just wanting you to be happy, Tamsin, I feel responsible for your happiness.

[Terri Cole]

So give me an example of that. So what do you do as a result of feeling responsible versus just wanting me to be happy?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I try to change it so it isn't being a high functioning codependent. Most of the time it's an overt or covert bid or attempt to control someone else's outcome. So you come to me and you're upset about something. If I'm a high functioning codependent, I want to fix your upset. If I'm in recovery from being a high functioning codependent, I have the bandwidth to actually be in the foxhole with you to say, I don't have the answer, but I love you. I'm here. Let me know how I can best support you. Which is different. The fixing is such a huge part of being a high functioning codependent. And it's funny, you know, on the interweb out here in these Internet streets, people love to, you know, be like, maybe I'm just nice. Ever think of that? I'm like, dude, if you can't not do it.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And not you being nice.

[Terri Cole]

No.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's a compulsion. Right?

[Terri Cole]

But I know what that feeling is. I know what that compulsion. As you were saying it, I was thinking like, I call my dad every night and I tick off a list like, is he good? Is he healthy?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Is he this?

[Terri Cole]

Is he socializing? Is he. Those are all those. I mean, I'm very aware. Listen, you diagnosed me, I diagnosed me, we diagnosed me. But it's not so easy to stop. So what are some of the ways, if you have identified yourself as a high functioning codependent, that you have to stop that behavior, that you can help yourself?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Let's do behaviors first. Okay. So I feel like, so people, if maybe you haven't heard yourself yet, but you're probably gonna do. So what are the most common behaviors? Feeling like you have to fix other people's problems. So that's like being an auto advice giver. Can't stop. And for me, I was the worst. It didn't.

[Terri Cole]

It would be not asked but can't. Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Not asked but can't stop.

[Terri Cole]

Okay.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It could be my mailman, it could be my hairdresser. It didn't matter who the hell it was.

[Terri Cole]

Why do we do that though?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because we're controlling.

[Terri Cole]

Is it controlling or because we think we want. It's because we just want them to feel better in that moment.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. And because they're not feeling better is making us uncomfortable. So we want our discomfort to stop. Yeah, it's part of it. Okay, so auto advice giving auto accommodation where you're out in public and like something needs to happen in a public place. Somebody looks like they're lost. They're looking at a map.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Who's immediately going over to help them? You are. You're on a plane and somebody wants to sit together. Who's immediately offering their seat if it could make it easier for them? You are. So am I. I mean, not anymore, but yes, but maybe. So auto accommodating. I tell the story in the book about, I was at my hair salon where I was today, and it was a super busy Saturday and they were doing something in my hair. Like I had a mask on it. So I was laying in the bowl, but now it was really busy. And now there's getting to be like a line waiting for the sink. But I'm like an idiot, not doing anything, just laying in the sink, right. Waiting for this thing to be done. So I'm like, I don't have to. I should tell them I can move. Like I don't have to be here and I don't want these people. One person's waiting, two people are waiting, three people are waiting. Now I'm having a literal panic attack. So you need. I need to.

[Terri Cole]

Because you need a problem solving. Of course.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because don't they. And I'm afraid that the. What if the little assistant is going to get in trouble because people are mad. Like, there's a million good reasons to be a control freak. So I raised my hand, I say, hey, I could sit over there. And she was like, hi, P.S. we do this every Saturday, Terri. Like, we're good. And I realized when I was done with that, I went home, this is like five years ago, and I did a video on YouTube and it went viral. So many people were like, oh my God, I do this everywhere. Like, this is so me. And why do we care? Right? So why does it matter that we do that? Well, for my own mental health, for my own internal peace, what could I have been doing except I was sitting there worrying about some shit that has nothing to do with me that is not anywhere near my side of the street. I could have been talking to my mom or listening to your podcast or reading a frigging book or resting my brain. Like, there's a million things I could have been doing for you. Yes, for me. Because the inherent. One of the inherent qualities of being an HFC is this, this self abandonment because we're always willing to take one for the team.

[Terri Cole]

What does it do to us if we're doing that? Because listen, I know it's exhausting. I also know it's very hard to turn off. It's very hard to turn off.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That's why I wrote a whole freaking book about it, my friend.

[Terri Cole]

I know.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That's what I'm talking about. It's too much. But really, that's why. Because it is hard to turn off. Because we came by this behavior honestly, because we were raised as good girls and because. Turn that frown around. And if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Be nice, Be accommodating, be helpful. These were socially sanctioned, so we were all indoctrinated into the cult of nice at the expense of ourselves. So we start at such a disadvantage that. Thank God for menopause. Because if you don't figure this out sooner, this change in life, I feel like really for a lot of people is the jumpstart to their next life, to their new life, to what's gonna be for them.

[Terri Cole]

Is that because you start seeing them take care of themselves, think about what's going. Not sound necessarily selfish, but thinking about themselves, caring for themselves and then figuring out purpose or what they want. And then those are those next level pivots.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. But here's the thing. It's being selfish. Right. That has gotten a bad name.

[Terri Cole]

Sure it has.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because when you think about it, what you want, what you think and how you feel.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Is important. But for you to be healthy, it has to be more important to you than what anyone else wants, thinks or feels. That includes Ira. That includes your dad. That includes everybody. And same for me. Now, we can choose to compromise. Of course we do. We're both married. Right. So we can choose to be generous. But what I want for women who are in this compulsive behavior pattern is I want you to have choices. You can still choose to be super generous. But if you're doing it to control the other person's feelings so that you feel better, you're not doing it willingly or with equanimity. Right, Right. You're doing it compulsively to control some of the other behaviors.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah. Let's go through the rest of the behaviors.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Well, anticipatory anxiety. I mean, anticipatory planning, not anxiety. We have that too, but planning where you know you're going to be with, let's say, difficult people. So you make a plan. You make sure you have the booze that they drink. You make sure that Uncle Bobby doesn't sit near Uncle Jimmy. Cause they hate each other. We are literally puppet mastering rather Than having a conversation and being like, if you two idiots can't figure it out, then don't come to Christmas. Right. The uncles who hate each other, whatever. So for us, it's all about twisting ourselves up and lighting ourselves on fire so that other people are comfortable and warm. And you do get to a point where a lot of times you just don't have the bandwidth to do it anymore.

[Terri Cole]

No. It's exhausting.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. Over and under functioning is another important aspect to look at. Okay.

[Terri Cole]

Another behavior.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Another behavior. But it really is a dynamic in relationship. So I say this sort of tongue in cheek, but it's true that, you know, in my 20s, I could take a perfectly normal boyfriend and turn him into an under functioner in two weeks or less.

[Terri Cole]

Because you've done so much for them.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. And because I got it, I got it, I got it.

[Terri Cole]

Yep.

[Tamsen Fadal]

What do they got to do?

[Terri Cole]

Yep.

[Tamsen Fadal]

You know, and I remember complaining to my mother about this one boyfriend that I was living with, and I was like, he doesn't know how to do anything. Because part of the reasons HFCs want to do everything also is that most, Most of us are kind of particular about the way things are. If I give it to you, you're not gonna either do it fast enough or you're not gonna do it. Right? Am I wrong?

[Terri Cole]

No, of course not. I'm just shutting my eyes, hoping it goes away somehow. I can make it stop.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Please help. Anyway, I was complaining. I was like, he doesn't know how to brown garlic. He's always burning it, and he doesn't know how to vacuum. My mother was like, terri, your father hasn't never touched a pan in his whole life while he was alive and never touched a vacuum. So she made a great point, though. She said, if you need everything done your way, you'll end up like me, doing everything and doing it alone.

[Terri Cole]

Wow.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because people stop asking, they're like, whatever. Like, she's obviously the only one who knows how to do anything, so just let her do it.

[Terri Cole]

So those are the behaviors. How do we get to a place where we. Once we identify them, if we can identify. Because those are very clear behaviors and we see a lot of people doing them and a lot of us know we're doing them. If you haven't gotten to menopause or that didn't stop it, what. How do you do that? How do you get. How do you get started on that road to stopping that behavior or at least being aware of it?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I think the. A great first step for anybody Listening or watching is doing a resentment inventory.

[Terri Cole]

Okay?

[Tamsen Fadal]

And you guys, it's so easy. It's a simple tool, but it'll act as a GPS to get you to what relationships you're probably over functioning or over giving or even over feeling in. So what do we do? We think of the people in our lives, and we think, am I holding onto any resentment in this relationship? And if the answer is yes, then you're gonna write down what it is. And if you look at it. I gave an example in the book of, like, when I lived in the city, my sister and I both lived here, that she would come to my house, use her key, and take my stuff and not tell me. So, like, I'd be like, going on vacation and be like, where's that wrap? But I couldn't find it.

[Terri Cole]

Right?

[Tamsen Fadal]

So I had told her a bunch of times, and then I finally got to a point where I said, hey, if you don't stop not telling me, I'm gonna take the key back. So I had to attach, like, a consequence. I would write that down as the example of, like, what I was feeling resentful about before I had the conversation with her. And then I have to go, what is my 50%?

[Terri Cole]

What did you do to cause that?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Well, what is my half? Even if my sister was really the offender my half was, I hadn't said anything to her yet right before I did. So we have to own, because every relationship is 50, 50, even if one person is the biggest one jerk on the planet. Sometimes your 50% is just staying.

[Terri Cole]

Yep.

[Tamsen Fadal]

You know, but. But that still keeps it going. So anyway, resentment inventory. You write down what it is, and then you go, what action step could I take when I'm ready? So don't pressure yourself. You don't have to be ready today. But we start to visualize and imagine how we can make it be different. So I started thinking, I'm gonna have a conversation with her, and I'm gonna essay. I'd like to make a simple request that you don't go to take my shit without asking, blah, blah, blah.

[Terri Cole]

Is that hard? Is that hard to do? The resentment inventory is one thing going in, then acting on it. Is that difficult for my functioning?

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's difficult for anybody, which is why people don't do it, which is why people would rather just ghost you or take a really long time to get back to you or just be like, roll their eyes.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, make it go away somehow without me addressing it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But when you address it, and the more you learn how simple it can be. To do it. I love this. That framework of I'd like to make a simple request, which I did not create, that is from nonviolen communication. Marshall Rosenberg. Because the truth is, any request actually is simple. Doesn't mean it's easy. Doesn't mean they're gonna do it. But I like that language. Some people don't. But you can write. And in all my books, I give you tons of scripts and online for any kind of boundaries that you need to create. You have to get a script together beforehand. You have to get it in your body by saying it in the mirror. Saying it to a friend.

[Terri Cole]

Yes.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because if not, sometimes we could get really emotional. Like the first time you say it, you could just like weirdly, spontaneously cry and be like, why did that happen? That doesn't feel good. So we get it into our bodies and then you have the conversation. So little by little, what people are doing right now is raising their awareness of where they might need changes. So Resentment inventory is one of the perfect places, another tool I want to give you. If you're doing all the things for all the people, which so many women who I know and in my crew and in your crew are, before you take on another thing this year or the rest of your life, you're going to ask two questions. The first one is, can do I have the bandwidth to take this on without becoming resentful?

[Terri Cole]

Okay, yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

So major. So major. Because you could do it.

[Terri Cole]

It's very hard, though, when you think someone's relying on you or you're, you know, a person that can do a lot of things. Well, this is to say no.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

Because you feel like you're going to miss out on something or you're going to let somebody down.

[Tamsen Fadal]

The whole FOMO is real for sure. But the high capacity, this is what we're talking about. And this is why I even came up with it. I'm going to go back to the second question. Don't you worry. But why I even came up with this moniker was that my high functioning clients didn't see themselves in the traditional codependent. So if I would say to them, hey, what you're describing is a codependent pattern, they would immediately go, yeah, no, hello, I'm not dependent on squat Terri Cole, you know that. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money, I'm making all the moves, I'm doing all the emotional labor. I'm taking care of everyone. And I was like, oh, my clients don't know what codependency is. They think it's something else. And they all thought it was. Well, I'm not enabling an alcoholic.

[Terri Cole]

I'm like, well, I was just gonna say that there was the book Codependent no more. That's what everybody equates it to.

[Tamsen Fadal]

They do, right? Yeah. But it is incorrect. And I was like, you know what? Codependency needs an upgrade and it needs to be modernized. So this definition is for the modern woman. Some men too. I've heard from lots of men, but really it's the female experience. A that's what I'm an expert at. But this is really happening where we're exhausted. But the irony is, the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like. Codependency.

[Terri Cole]

That's exactly right. Because you feel like it comes easy. Here's the truth. My bathroom drawer is filled with half used skincare products that promised a lot and delivered very little. And like so many of you, I've been really intentional about what I put in my body. But it took me a while to get serious about what I was putting on my body. So many products call themselves clean or natural or organic and then you flip the bottle and find a laundry list of ingredients you can't pronounce. That's why discovering Purity woods has really been a breath of fresh air. Purity woods mission is to provide the cleanest and most effective healthy aging products that are out there. Their entire line is usually USDA certified organic, non gmo, free of anything artificial, free of synthetic preservatives, and yes, it's cruelty free. Finally, a product where the label actually matches what's inside. Their age defying dream cream has been my go to in my routine. Packed with powerful plant based ingredients including fascinating red maple leaf extract. So if you haven't heard of it, researchers have been calling this a plant based botox because it actually helps protect the elastin in your skin which keeps it firm and youthful. I also love that Purity woods gives back with every purchase they donate to one tree planted, helping to reforest areas impacted by wildfires. So not only are you caring for your skin, you're doing something good for the planet too. Honestly, I've never seen a skin care product of this quality at this reasonable of a price point. Thankfully, the good people at Purity woods have a special coupon code specifically for my listeners. So you can try it out for yourself. For 27% off today, just go to puritywoods.com Tamsin or enter Tamsen at the checkout. That's P U R I T Y W o o d s.com Tamson or enter Tamson at checkout. Try Purity woods for yourself. For 27% off today, just go to puritywoods.com Tamson or enter Tamson at the checkout.

[Monday.com Ad]

Work management platforms. Ugh. Endless onboarding. IT bottlenecks admin requests. But what if things were different? Monday.com is different. No lengthy onboarding, beautiful reports in minutes, custom workflows you can build on your own. Easy to use prompt, free AI. Huh. Turns out you can love a work management platform. Monday.com the first work platform you'll love to use.

[Terri Cole]

So our codependent or high functioning codependents, people pleasers. Are those completely different?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Okay, I'm going to answer the. I'm going to add the second question, okay. To that little other tool I gave and then we're going to do that and you'll have to remind me of what that question was.

[Terri Cole]

I can do that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I got you. We said you're asking yourself, do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful? And number two, do I even friggin want to do it?

[Terri Cole]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

How much of the time if someone else wants you to do it, you not doing it, like just got taken off the table by this someone else's reality becomes more important than yours. So I always want us to be thinking, do I even want to do it? And listen, sometimes we'll still do the effing thing because we are in relationship with people or because we love people or because it's needed to be done or whatever the thing is. But you have to know for yourself that but your preference matters.

[Terri Cole]

Why is that so hard for us to be honest with ourselves about our preference mattering?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because we were sold a bill of goods about being like the cool chick with no needs. Yeah, right. And being like, you know me, no fuss, no muss, Right? Whatever you guys want to do.

[Terri Cole]

You call it the myth of having no needs, right?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

It's dangerous.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. Because what happens then? You know what doesn't happen? Your needs don't get met because you act like you don't have them. Again, it's all of this control. Because what happens when we have needs? We're vulnerable. And so for high functioning codependence in particular, another one of the traits is hyper independence.

[Terri Cole]

Yes. Well, what we think is hyper independence.

[Tamsen Fadal]

No, it is.

[Terri Cole]

We have hyper independence.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. Meaning we don't let anyone do anything for us.

[Terri Cole]

Oh, right, right.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Like even the taxi driver, right? He's like, I'll get your bag. I was like, I got it. Get back in. Like, why? I can't even. Why, why can't I even let this guy lift a bag? It makes no sense at all.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, so I think it's a hard habit to break. I really do. I just, I'm aware of it when, when it happens. I think a lot of women are aware of. Well, maybe they're not aware of it, but maybe we're getting to be aware of it because of you. But I think it's a hard habit to break.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It is. But let's look at what happens when we do break.

[Terri Cole]

Okay.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Like, what's the motivation? Cause some people online sometimes will be like, well, I like being this way. Great, then don't come to me for solutions. If you like being that way, enjoy. P.S. you're not gonna be able to do it forever though, right? We go in before we go out. Because it's not just identifying, it's understanding. So in the book, I walk you through your HFC blueprint, which is like looking at. And it's really, it's a relational blueprint. Where did we learn that? This is how we're supposed to be in romantic relationships, in work situations, with friends. So this is an unconscious paradigm that is in our minds handed down through generation to generation, which has everything to do with the culture you're from, your family system, what you witnessed, the society you're from, socioeconomic status. There's so many things that come together that create this relational blueprint that what I do in the book is I help you figure out what that is. You answer a bunch of questions, very poignant questions, and then we bring all this information up into the main part of the house and open a bunch of windows and turn on a bunch of lights and we're like, okay, so this is how it was for my parents or my mother was a people pleasing over functioner. But that isn't the only way to be feminine. Maybe I can do it differently, maybe I can choose something different. But there's a lot of loyalty that gets in there. There's so many reasons why we must bring it from the unconscious to the conscious. Or you're literally never changing it. So the beginning is that you answer those questions, understanding why you are the way you are, and then the first thing that you can change that I think is the easiest to change. If you are an auto advice giver, you're going to be super mindful that instead of doing that, no matter who comes to you, whether they're six or 60. And they come to you with a problem and they go, let's say you have a little kid who's like, I had a fight with Bobby in school today. Instead of being the parent who says, we don't fight in this family or whatever, you go, okay, tell me what happened. You give him the floor to tell you. Then you go, okay, now what do you think you should do?

[Terri Cole]

And that's it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That's not gonna be it forever if you're talking to a 7 year old or a 15 year old or a 17 year old or even a 60 year old. But that's definitely the beginning. And if they go, let's say a little kid says, I think I should go in tomorrow and hit him with a brick, you're not gonna agree that that's a good idea, but what did you just learn about your kid? Ooh, he's got some violent fantasies in his mind or whatever it is. This being an HFC and being a people pleaser and being an auto advice giver, it really negatively impacts the intimacy in our relationships because.

[Terri Cole]

How so?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Well, what we're doing, if I come to you, Tim, and I say I'm having this problem, and if that's all I do is tell you I'm having this problem, and you go, oh my God, I have the perfect oncologist, gynecologist, whoever the hell it is, like, or I've got the perfect book, or I know exactly what you should do. What has happened is you've just centered my pain and my problem on you as the solution.

[Terri Cole]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And what you didn't do was just be able to have the courage to be with me in my painful situation. Right. People, I don't think if we're looking at what is the biggest flex when it comes to love, it's definitely not fixing other people's problems. No.

[Terri Cole]

No.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's being in the foxhole with them during the dark night of the soul and not say something stupid and annoying that they're not even going to do to make yourself feel better about their situation. Like, it's. I'm not going to try to fix you. People as projects so dehumanizing, so painful. And love says, tell me more.

[Terri Cole]

That's where the intimacy is built.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. How can I best support you right now?

[Terri Cole]

That needs to be hard for you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

Right. Because you, you actually, I mean, you've. Auto advice is probably very second nature.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And people pay me to auto advice.

[Terri Cole]

Well, aside from that. But seriously, like going around the world, you probably hear it A lot. And have a tendency to want to do it immediately. I think we all do.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I guess I do. But here's the thing. It depends if I'm in Terri Cole Persona mode.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, of course.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Then it's fine for me to auto advise Skip, because that's what somebody's paying me for if I'm with my husband and he's talking about something instead of, I used to be so bossy. Oh, my God. I couldn't stop telling him what to do. We actually had a situation years ago. He's an artist, and he had a rep embezzle, like, 65 grand. And this is, like, 15 years ago, which was a lot of money. Yes. And I was losing my shit. Like, losing it, where I was like, we're going to get legal. I can't wait to get her. Like, I was so mad, feeling so protective. But, you know, obviously, in hindsight, not being that helpful to my husband. And finally, when I got it together enough because of my therapist to say, hey, babe, all right, I'm going to stop with all the legal stuff. How can I actually best support you right now? And he was like, you could have faith that I'm gonna figure it out my way and in my time, but just have faith that I will. And I was like, I do, and I promise I'm not mentioning again. And of course, he totally handled it like the groovy Pisces that he is. No problems, didn't get legal, didn't spend any money, and still managed to be friends with this person.

[Terri Cole]

Wow. And said you were gonna take it and put it on your back and carry it around and. And try to figure out a way to fix it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

All right. You're the boundary queen. We know that. You mentioned boundaries before. Why are boundaries so hard to set, especially for women?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because, again, what is our training? Right. The cult of nice. So our training says if you put a limit up, you're not being nice. Right. All these people who are saying, I don't want to hurt their feelings, you know, anytime I want you to be mindful, you guys listening, watching you have this phrase in your mind. I don't want them to think or I don't want them to feel. Just back up and get on your own side of the street. Because how they feel and what they think is not your side of the street. And you trying to control it is you being dysfunctional. How about we just focus on how you feel and what you think and what you want? And most HFCs don't. We can't wait to fix you so I don't have to. Look at me. I have all the answers. Am I happy? Who knows? I'm too busy. But maybe, maybe not.

[Terri Cole]

But putting up those boundaries, I think it's really important to drill down, like how you start to do that are there. I know you have methods to do that and techniques, but I want people to walk away with some of the actionables of how to start setting those boundaries, even if they're little boundaries. How do we start setting those boundaries? One by one.

[Tamsen Fadal]

The easiest is to stop the auto. Yes. So for the next seven days, no matter who asks you what, nobody is saying an automatic yes. We are buying time in every situation.

[Terri Cole]

No auto. Yes. So what do you do? What do you say instead?

[Tamsen Fadal]

You say, oh, my God. Thank you so much for thinking of me. I'm gonna have to check with Ira. I'm not sure what we're doing on Thursday.

[Terri Cole]

Okay. All right. Or yes.

[Tamsen Fadal]

What about. I have a 24 hour decision making policy, so I'm gonna let you know tomorrow at this time.

[Terri Cole]

Oh, that's great.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And it could be kind of tongue in cheek, like, I like to use humor. Fun. But what we're training people is that we trained them that we will give an auto. Yes. We're now going to be training them that we're going to think about it. Right. We have a right to give ourselves time. You have the right to say, I don't know if I feel like doing that. I don't know.

[Terri Cole]

Because how many times have you said, well, how many times have I. How many times have all of us said yes right away? It comes to that event or day or meeting or time, and you're like, why did I. What was I thinking? I. I've heard myself say that so many times. What was I thinking about that?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Right. Why did I do this?

[Terri Cole]

Why did I do this?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because it's.

[Terri Cole]

And that's where that resentment grows.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Exactly.

[Terri Cole]

Which is the worst thing.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And that's where the self abandonment piece comes in. Right. I want to please you in the short run, even though it's super displeasing to me.

[Terri Cole]

Yep.

[Tamsen Fadal]

In the long run.

[Terri Cole]

All right. How else can you set boundaries? So no Auto yes.

[Tamsen Fadal]

No. No. Auto. Yes. But then what you're going to do is the reason we Not Auto. Yes. Is that it is so much easier to come back and give an honest, authentic no. Oh, hey, I checked with Ira and actually we have other plans, but I hope you guys have a great time.

[Terri Cole]

Great.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And when you say no I'll give you a whole bunch of ways of saying no.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, we need that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

If it's someone that you like, you can start with something sweet. Right. If it's true, like, oh, I love that you always think to include me. Thank you. And actually, we're busy, but I hope you guys have so much fun. Right.

[Terri Cole]

And it feels good.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes.

[Terri Cole]

And you've not hurt. You don't feel like as a pleaser, you've hurt somebody.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Right. We can do it in. You can always do it with kindness, but not doing it. I think that the thing that is helpful to understand is saying yes when you want to say no is not only not nice, it is straight up misleading and dishonest. We are literally giving people corrupted data about who we are and what we like. We're doing that, and then we're like, gee, why am I not satisfied in life? Because nobody knows you. That's right.

[Terri Cole]

Nobody knows who you are. And you don't know who you are.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Right. So going back to the how you say no, there's a million ways once you go back to say no. But what you're gonna start to see, which we started on this before, is what's on the other side of recovery. What is your incentive to want to do it? So much more relaxation for your nervous system. So much more expansion. Surrendering to what is respecting other people's right to be sovereign cause. Here's the thing. People have a right to succeed and fail. People have a right to thrive and to flail. But if you're an hfc, you don't want anybody flailing in your vicinity. You're like, no flailing over here. All right? Right. I'm not into it. And yet this is part of really being in relationship is being able to allow others to struggle, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

[Terri Cole]

Really uncomfortable. Really uncomfortable.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Extremely uncomfortable.

[Terri Cole]

Let's go back to the other ways to talk to somebody. So no. Auto. Yes. I think that's a big one.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But let's start with what are the quick steps that people can do? So if you know, you need to have a conversation with your father, who's a difficult person, and he. So you're gonna. You're gonna. What is the problem? That's step number one.

[Terri Cole]

Right.

[Tamsen Fadal]

All right, what is the issue? Okay. They're coming to your house without warning. Again, look at all these people intruding. But they come to your house without warning, using your key to come in.

[Terri Cole]

Right.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Or something like that. Then you make a decision. When is the optimal time to talk to Him. Well, if your father's not a morning person, don't do it in the morning, right? If you're gonna have dinner with him and he's relaxed after dinner, have the conversation. Then if you wanna, you come up with a script, you know, And I give you a million stem starters and all different ways to come up with the script. Hey, Dad, I love spending time with you. As you know, you're my favorite person and I really need you to text me before you come over because I'm not always here and it causes stress for me. What if he gets mad, right? What if he's offended? I don't have to call. I don't. You could say no, dad, you really do, actually, and I see that you're upset and I love you, but please just respect that boundary or whatever. And a lot of times the thing is, we're afraid people are gonna be upset.

[Terri Cole]

We are.

[Tamsen Fadal]

A lot of times they're not. A lot of times they go, oh, my God. Thank you so much for telling me.

[Terri Cole]

I think I've found that sometimes people are relieved when you're really honest. Even if you think they're not gonna like those conversations, right? Which is always shocking.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But no. Why? They're relieved because, listen, when you are a straight shooter and you say yes when you mean yes and no when you mean no, you are an emotionally trustworthy person. So when someone is a people pleaser and they're saying yes when they want to say no, sometimes, you know, every people pleaser in your life right now, Tim, you could literally list them.

[Terri Cole]

Of course.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because when that person says, I'm definitely coming on Friday, I say to Vic, April's coming. 50% chance April will be there on Friday, because I know this girl does not know how to say no, right? And I don't like that energy. Like, for me, you feel it. When someone's like, well, I might and it's gonna be a long day.

[Terri Cole]

You're like, yeah, they already told you no, but they're scared to finish the sentence.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Please just. It's okay. It's funny. I was inviting one of my friends to go to Guatemala with me for like some yoga thing, and I just said, hey, do you want to do this thing? She's like, ugh, hate the sun, hate Guatemala, hate yoga. No, thanks.

[Terri Cole]

I love her.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Isn't that great, though?

[Terri Cole]

But that's a good friend.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Of course. And she knew I would A, think that was funny, which I did. But B, she's also someone who I so trust because she's never Blowing sunshine out my ass for her own weird insecurity.

[Terri Cole]

Yep. So you can ask her other things and you really trust where that's coming from. And that. And that's the big, huge difference.

[Tamsen Fadal]

She will have the hard conversation. And anyone. When you're a trustworthy person, when you know yourself, when it's okay for you to say no, People are so comfortable around you.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because they don't have to double guess. They're not guessing. Like, does she really mean it? Does she not mean it? Is everything okay?

[Terri Cole]

They're not waiting for the other shoe to drop to see who. Who you're going to be that day.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

I mean, that's what happens, right?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Right. Because we're acting these things out. If we're not setting these boundaries, we're saying yes and doing this thing. There's a part of you on that day, of that thing that you agreed to do that you didn't want to do. You're literally pissed. You're livid and so mad at yourself. And then you're mad at yourself.

[Terri Cole]

So what are the dangers of getting stuck in a victim mindset, which can.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Happen oftentimes when you're a high functioning codependent? You're right. Because what happens with the victim mindset is that if you are doing all the things for all the people, even if they're not asking you, what it ends up translating to in our resentful inside is that that person is entitled. Right. You're like, I cannot believe Betty, that she would ask me to do this, rather than. The truth is that for most of us, we are serving ourselves up on a silver platter to over function and over give and overdo. It's funny, I was walking with one of my girlfriends, Kate Northrup, like 20 years ago, we were in New York, walking, walking, walking. And she's complaining about this friend like, I can't believe she asked me to do this again. I did this. I helped her move the whole entire walk. She's like, who does that? Who's raised like that? Who continues to ask, so entitled. And we get there and I just said, she reminded. I never would have remembered this. And I said, yeah, babe. She's got some nerve putting you in the position to have to simply say no, no.

[Terri Cole]

Oh, gosh, Jerry.

[Tamsen Fadal]

She was like, crap. Could I just say no? I was like, yeah, babe. Yeah, gosh. And then if you could just say no, you wouldn't even give a crap that she asked.

[Terri Cole]

Of course not.

[Tamsen Fadal]

We make them wrong.

[Terri Cole]

Cause you already have Your answer for.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Asking when you have the skills to protect yourself, have your own back. You, you're not mad at them, ask away. But you will not influence what I do. Because I'm so rock solid in myself.

[Terri Cole]

I want to go into dating, but before I do want to hit, I want to go back to menopause, if we can. I think there are so many of these changes and I don't think that, I don't think mental health is enough of the conversation yet when it comes to that. I think you, I mean, you see that you talk to these women all the time. What do you think the biggest thing we're struggling with now? We're starting to have the conversation, we're starting to normalize it, we're trying to stop using the word taboo when it comes to it. But what are these other changes that women are going to go through? Because I, I did hit up on the words now what, what's next? And I still do all the time. And I do think especially women during this time are reevaluating a lot of what's going on in their lives. I know part of it is what you're talking about, but what advice do you have to women that are at this time and they're handling a lot of different things and trying to figure out, I guess, how to find their, their purpose in this next half?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I think you have to prioritize yourself. And you know, there was this meme going around not that long ago where, you know, the voice, the gut man's voice, you know, busy mothers, you know, stop doing everything or something like that. And then people were clapping back and saying, then who the is going to do it?

[Terri Cole]

Right, right, right.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Meaning people feel like they can't stop and yet we have to imagine a world where we can build time in for ourselves. So when you do the resentment inventory, as we said, that's going to be step one. It's really going to show you where are you resemble and be honest. Right. Because here's another thing. Women at this age and stage like perimenopause, going into menopause, coming into my practice are, it's almost like they've been so busy for so long, like raising kids and taking care of parents and doing all the things they're doing that they haven't had a chance to really think about their feelings. And then they woke up and it was like decades that they didn't think about their feelings. And now you can't stop your feelings. You've been shoving down resentment, especially the women who are doing all the emotional labor. They're working and like running the whole house and doing all the things and planning vacations and making sure that the mother in law card goes like autopilot. All the things. But what I'm seeing is that the chickens come home to roost. And there's a point where you it not satisfying anymore. Whether it ever was. Maybe the illusion of control was satisfying whatever it was. And I'm not saying having a family is not satisfying. I'm saying of course not doing it this way.

[Terri Cole]

That pattern of behavior of how you're doing. Yeah, it doesn't work anymore.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And so what can you do is start carving out. I call it really self consideration because it's so much more than self care. Right? Self care sounds like a mani. Petty.

[Terri Cole]

I know.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And that too. That too.

[Terri Cole]

Which are okay but yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Not saying we don't need those but this is different. You know those two questions that we talked about before? Do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful and do I even want to do it? Those are the self consideration questions that most of us never gave ourselves the consideration to ask ever. So what if you the two things that people listening. If you did two things from watching or listening to this pod. If you stopped auto advice giving and I'm gonna give you what you can do instead the expansive questions and you started prioritizing yourself make sure that you're taking care of your hormones. Yes, it's complicated.

[Terri Cole]

Yes it is.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Tamsen wrote a whole freaking book to make it super easy for you with every expert in the world so it no longer complicated.

[Terri Cole]

Including one sitting right here.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That's right. Including me on boundaries.

[Terri Cole]

Sure.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But really like you've done all the work for us which is why between the doc and the book I said it and I really think it's true. I think it's a documentary and the book. The two most important things that have happened in my life to.

[Terri Cole]

Oh Terri, thank you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I'm not kidding because to see the ripple I'm crying. It's like the relief and me trying to with my clients and my friends and my sisters trying to do it. Oh it's so much better to have a friend's book to make them go get.

[Terri Cole]

Thank you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because you know the HFC in me gets kicked up because I want everyone on hormone replacement therapy. Because we all need it, you know, no matter what we discover in this process of our becoming for the second best part of our life. Let's say it's. You don't have to do anything. Anything, right? So I feel like a lot of times we're in denial or we're self sabotage because maybe for some people they really feel like maybe their marriage is over or maybe maybe they really want to change their life, maybe they don't want to be a doctor anymore or whatever the thing is. And it's so scary. But what I like to say is, hey, you can know that and do nothing, right? So. But not knowing it in this fake way isn't the truth and you will act out that frustration. So just open your heart and your mind to whatever is real for you. It's almost like we're surrendering to what is in this next phase of life. Getting into recovery from being an HFC means we're so clear about what is not mine to do and what is mine to do. Letting the chips fall where they may when they're not your mother effing chips, as I like to say. Because God, I feel like all the chips are mine. I mean most of us as HFCs.

[Terri Cole]

But I think this is a great time to be examining that too. I really do. Because we've. Because I don't know that there's the bandwidth to keep doing that for the other third or other half of our lives. Like I don't know that I have it.

[D]

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday? How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites with Indeed sponsored Jobs. Your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility at indeed.comarts. just go to indeed.comarts right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.

[Terri Cole]

Correct? All right, I want to talk about dating and being in a relationship with an HFC and not realizing are there flags or dynamics to look out for if you're in a relationship with someone.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Who'S doing this asked you who is an hfc? Wow, I don't think I've ever had this question. So we're talking from the other Yeah. I mean, yeah.

[Terri Cole]

How do you respond to that when someone's constantly auto answering you or constantly doing Things for you or constantly making you an under underachiever?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah. I think you make a simple request that they stop. You know, like. Like my mother said, right. That if you keep doing all the things for all the people. People, HFCs, you'll end up doing it all and doing it all alone. But you're disenfranchising also the people in your life, which is what you're talking about. If you find yourself on the receiving end of that and the HFC is finishing your sentence or is asking you a loaded question. This is HFC style. So are you loving your new job?

[Terri Cole]

Wait, why is that?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because I'm not asking you how your new job is. I'm providing the answer. That is great. Cause I don't want you to tell me it's not so.

[Terri Cole]

I wouldn't even thought of it like that. Any other examples?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Oh, so many.

[Terri Cole]

I put you on the spot all the time.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I know, that's okay. But so many of like example of one for my own life. Vic used to want to drive from Jersey when we were dating to come pick me up on the Upper west side and then drive back. And I would say to my mother, this makes no sense. I could just go to Penn and take a 20 minute trip. You know, I'm all about efficiency. I'm not efficient. And she was like, like hello. Every time he offers to do that terror, think of it as him handing you a blue box from Tiffany's. Yeah, it's a gift. He wants to make your life easier. How about just can let him? So that would be me as an hfc trying to control the efficiency of this thing.

[Terri Cole]

I understand.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Rather than just letting someone do something loving for me. And it did make my life easier. I just walked down my steps and hop in a car.

[Terri Cole]

Y. Yeah. Oh gosh, those are good. And they're so, so very clear. All right, let's do a couple of heal solutions. How do we learn to love ourselves first?

[Tamsen Fadal]

What happens is you change the behavior and the feelings will follow. Because self love is way more of a lifestyle and a code of behavior than it is like a feeling feeling. Right. Because when we really love ourselves, we consider ourselves, we protect ourselves. So how do we love ourselves first is by considering ourselves first, knowing that you can always compromise from that point. But tell the truth to yourself. How do you feel about this? Do you want to do this? Do you feel okay? Is this morally rubbing you the wrong way in some ways, like how you feel matters. And to love yourself first means it matters most to you. And that you can trust you to have your own back. To not do something that would be below your level of ethics or morals or to not put up with shit from someone. Yeah.

[Terri Cole]

It feels so crappy when you're doing something outside of your comfort level or zone or value system or any of that. And you absolutely know it. There's no question about that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes, you do. And it's fear.

[Terri Cole]

Yep. And it's fear based. It's always fear based. I'm so excited whenever, when he gets takeaways from this because I feel like everybody does. Okay, I've asked you. This is a final question. I promise. Share a few of you. I feel like I could just keep going a few of your favorite phrases for when somebody oversteps or guilts us.

[Tamsen Fadal]

If you are with a chronic interrupter and we all know these people, I love to bring in the physical body to start before I eat, even make the boundary which is just bringing one finger up. You know, if you were saying to somebody one minute you would hold your first finger up. That's what I do first. And then I say, oh please let me finish what I was saying. Because if I don't, I no doubt I will absolutely forget. Usually this will stop an interrupter in their tracks, but sometimes when we give a little context like that, it softens it as well. I love, love the this because it really stops people.

[Terri Cole]

Yes, it does.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And then you can, you can do a harder intervention if you're with someone who's making a racist comment and misogynistic comment. I literally just go, no, thank you. No, I will, I will block someone's face if, if they're doing something that's really offensive.

[Terri Cole]

So the physical, the physical parts of these behaviors are really important.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah. Because we want our body language to support what we're saying.

[Terri Cole]

Yep. When somebody guilts us, somebody guilts you. This is a big one.

[Tamsen Fadal]

What would they say if they were guilting you?

[Terri Cole]

Oh, you know, I really was counting on you to come. I can't believe you're not going to be able to make it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, I'm not. I'm sorry. But I hope you guys have a great time.

[Terri Cole]

That's so hard and so simple.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Uh huh. It's just saying it right. So I feel so bad. Or you know, you said you could do it. Like sometimes you have to back out of things. Like we have to give ourselves permission to course correct and to change our minds and to make mistakes. And if they say, well I was, you know, I thought you said you were Gonna do it. You're right, I did. And I'm sorry. I just overestimated my bandwidth. I'm really sorry. I actually really can't.

[Terri Cole]

I love. I was so excited about this conversation. I feel like I could keep going with you, but I feel like every piece of advice is something that people are gonna listen to and have 20 examples of it throughout their day, no matter where they are. Whether it's people pleasing, high functioning, codependent, or. Or, you know, just trying to get through every day right now.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yes. And what about people who ask you intrusive questions? Anybody?

[Terri Cole]

Of course. Why don't you have kids? I get why don't you. Why didn't you ever have kids? You know, like, yeah, women get all.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Sorts of things, so I don't know. Why didn't you ever have kids? And you could say, why would you ask me that?

[Terri Cole]

Gosh, I need to bring you with me everywhere, too.

[Tamsen Fadal]

No, you could say it nicely, though. You could have a smile. You could just say, or. Why would you want to know that? How would that help you to know?

[Terri Cole]

Oh, gosh. And then you put it back on them.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah. That is actually Kesha Urbaniak's work. It's power dynamics, where when you're asking me a question, you're the dom and I'm the sub. When I flip that question back to you, especially an appropriate question, now, I'm the dom and you're the sub. Now you have to say something. When I go so much of the time, when I ever use that, and I do it gently.

[Terri Cole]

Yeah, of course.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But it stops people in their tracks, they're not going to continue down that questioning. And unless they're maybe not the smartest people, and then they may say, I was just curious. And you could say, isn't that funny, though your morbid curiosity is actually not my responsibility.

[Terri Cole]

All right. One thing to leave people with if they have any thoughts, especially going into this next phase of life. I think perimenopause and menopause is, you know, is what we talk a lot about. But we have a lot of the high functioning codependent behaviors during this time.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That there's so much peace and excitement and juiciness on the other side. Because part of the biggest costs of living this way is we end up living what I call life light L I T E. Because we're living so much here that everything just hits not as hard, not as juicy. Our memories are not as sharp because we were thinking about this, we were thinking about anticipating the next problem. We were thinking we were ruminating about something rather than simply being present in our lives. So there's so much good stuff waiting for you and all of your good qualities as an hfc, all of your high functioningness that is only gonna be amplified. You don't suddenly become low functioning because you get into recovery. You're just so much happier and the people in your life are probably less afraid of you. Because if you're an hfc, you've got lots of opinions about the way things should be done. And when you start to really accept the people in your life where they are and love them for where they are, your relationships will also really, really blossom.

[Terri Cole]

Where can people find you?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Okay, before I tell you where you can find me, I actually have a gift for your audience because this is a lot and it can be overwhelming. So I created an HFC toolkit to just give you a place to start. So you can get [e-mail] HFC and you guys can find me. I hang out on Instagram probably the most. I have a podcast which you've been on a bunch of times called the Terri Cole show for 10 years. And my really everything that I do is on my website, terricole.com wonderful.

[Terri Cole]

Thank you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Thank you.

[Terri Cole]

So many of us were taught to just be nice instead of honest, to put everybody else first, even if it costs us our sleep and our sanity. But I wanna remind you, as Terri reminded us today, the path to true intimacy and self worth begins when we stop performing and start showing up for ourselves. You don't have to be everything for everyone. You don't have to earn love. And you don't have to overachieve or continue to keep proving yourself. Your needs matter too. And it's never too late to rewrite your relationship blueprint, starting with the one you have for yourself. Terri, thank you for continuing to remind us that radical honesty is an act of self love. If this conversation resonated with you, please share the episode with a friend or somebody you love. Email me with your questions and [e-mail] and subscribe to our YouTube channel for more relatable conversations each week. Thanks for being here and I'll see you next week on the Tamsen Show. The Tamson show is an original production by Authentic Wave executive producers Scott Weinberger, Kevin Bennett and Rebecca Grierson, brand director Johanna Ofznik. Our line producer is Sabrina Sarre, editing by Zach Smith and Marquis Harris.