Reshma Saujani: Imposter Syndrome Is a Lie

Summary

Podcast Title: The Tamsen Show
Episode: Reshma Saujani: Imposter Syndrome Is a Lie
Release Date: April 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Tamsen Show, Emmy-winning journalist and best-selling author Tamsen Fadal welcomes Reshma Saujani, the founder of Girls Who Code and Moms First. Together, they delve deep into the pervasive issue of imposter syndrome, challenging its very existence and exploring its roots and repercussions on women’s professional and personal lives.

Challenging Imposter Syndrome

Reshma Saujani sets the tone by provoking listeners to rethink what they know about imposter syndrome. She begins by questioning the characteristics traditionally associated with motherhood—strength, resilience, and unwavering love—and seamlessly transitions into how societal narratives, like imposter syndrome, undermine these inherent qualities in women.

Notable Quote:
"Imposter syndrome is a lie. It is a trick to make you feel that you are not good enough."
— Tamsen Fadal [01:44]

Historical Context of Imposter Syndrome

Delving into the origins of imposter syndrome, Reshma provides a historical lens, explaining that the term emerged in the 1970s—a pivotal decade for women's rights with significant legislative and societal shifts. Initially coined as "imposter phenomenon" to describe white women's experiences, it morphed into "imposter syndrome," inadvertently medicalizing and universalizing the sentiment.

Notable Quote:
"Imposter syndrome very much falls into becoming popularized in culture at a time of a tremendous amount of women's progress."
— Reshma Saujani [07:15]

The Impact on Women’s Careers and Health

The conversation highlights how imposter syndrome stifles women's ambitions, leading to deferred dreams, unasked promotions, and unstarted businesses. Tamsen shares her personal experience of feeling inadequate despite significant achievements, illustrating how pervasive these feelings are among high-achieving women.

Additionally, they discuss the intersection of women’s health issues, such as menopause, with professional life. Tamsen recounts her own breast cancer scare, emphasizing how women's pain and health concerns are often trivialized, further exacerbating feelings of inadequacy and imposterism.

Notable Quote:
"It is normal to feel afraid. It is normal to feel scared to leave something that you've done for so long and to do something new is scary."
— Tamsen Fadal [38:05]

Systemic Barriers and Cultural Backlash

Reshma articulates how imposter syndrome serves as a systemic barrier, a backlash against the strides women made towards equality and representation in the workplace. This cultural pushback perpetuates the myth that women do not belong or are not qualified, irrespective of their actual achievements.

Notable Quote:
"Anytime you see women's progress, you will see essentially a backlash to that."
— Reshma Saujani [08:00]

Building Community and Embracing Generosity

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the importance of community and generosity among women. Tamsen advocates for a supportive network where women celebrate each other's successes rather than view them as threats. This shift from competition to collaboration is essential in dismantling the myths propagated by imposter syndrome.

Notable Quote:
"If you succeed, I will succeed."
— Tamsen Fadal [42:25]

Personal Growth and Bravery Over Perfection

Reflecting on personal journeys, both Tamsen and Reshma emphasize the importance of courage and embracing imperfections. They encourage women to take bold steps, even in the face of fear and uncertainty, advocating for bravery as opposed to striving for unattainable perfection.

Notable Quote:
"Be brave, not perfect."
— Tamsen Fadal [48:11]

Practical Advice for Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Towards the end of the episode, Tamsen and Reshma offer actionable strategies for listeners grappling with imposter syndrome:

1. Start Small: Begin with manageable steps and share your goals with others to build accountability and support.
2. Normalize Fear: Acknowledge that feeling scared is natural and separate these feelings from the misconception that you are inadequate.
3. Foster Generosity: Support and uplift other women, recognizing that collective success benefits everyone.
4. Redefine Bravery: Shift the focus from flawless performance to courageous actions, regardless of the outcome.

Notable Quote:
"When imposter syndrome comes up and you're like, yeah, it is scary for me to walk into my boss's office and ask for that promotion... it is scary for me to start this new thing that's normal. To feel scared. Everyone feels scared. It will go away."
— Reshma Saujani [38:43]

Conclusion

Tamsen Fadal and Reshma Saujani wrap up the episode by reinforcing the idea that imposter syndrome is not an inherent truth but a constructed obstacle. By understanding its origins and actively working to dismantle its influence, women can reclaim their confidence and drive toward their fullest potential.

Notable Quote:
"If you have the ability to do that, whether it's in your workplace, whether it's in your community, whether it is on TV."
— Tamsen Fadal [20:08]

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Key Takeaways:

• Imposter Syndrome as a Myth: It’s a societal construct designed to undermine women's confidence and achievements.
• Historical Roots: Originated during a time of significant women's progress, serving as a cultural pushback.
• Systemic Impact: Affects women's careers, health, and overall well-being by perpetuating feelings of inadequacy.
• Community and Support: Building a network of generosity and collaboration can counteract imposter feelings.
• Actionable Strategies: Start small, normalize fear, embrace bravery over perfection, and support fellow women.

For Further Exploration:
Listeners are encouraged to engage with The Tamsen Show on social media @tamsenfadal and visit tamsenfadell.com for more resources and episodes that empower women to navigate life's challenges with confidence.

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Transcript

[Tamsen Fadal]

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[Reshma Saujani]

So let me ask you something. When you hear the word mom, what characteristics come to mind do you think?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Love?

[Reshma Saujani]

Strength. Resilience. Or maybe comfort knowing her love is always with you. I know motherhood looks different for everyone. Whether you're a mother, whether your mother shaped the person you are today. Then there are some who carry the love of their mom in their hearts in different ways. And that's where Cozy Earth comes in. Cozy Earth is the ultimate when it comes to creating comfort. That feels like home. And you know that home feels like mom. I'm absolutely in love with their temperature regulating bedding to their Ultrasoft PJs I wear every night and I have several pairs. Cozy Earth's bamboo pajamas are the perfect gift for yourself or that special person in your life. And you know that to me, sleep is everything between my cozy Earth PJs and the bedding. I sleep through the night these days and I cannot wait to jump into bed at the end of a long day. Your mom deserves the best. Get 40% off with my code [e-mail] that's TAMSENozyearth.com imposter syndrome. So we have all heard about it and let's be honest, we've all felt it. That little voice in your head saying you don't belong here. You're not good enough. Everyone's going to find out that you're a big fraud.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Imposter syndrome is a lie. It is a trick to make you feel that you are not good enough.

[Reshma Saujani]

My next guest on the Tamson Show, Reshma Sujani is a powerhouse. She is a founder of Girls who Code who has taught millions of girls the skills they need to thrive in tech, and recently founded Moms first, where she's fighting for affordable childcare and paid leave. She's a bestselling author, a TED speaker, and a trailblazer who has spent her career challenging those narratives that hold women back.

[Tamsen Fadal]

No one just lets us in. I think work life balance has impeded Women's progress. Because you're like, wait, what the. I don't feel any balance here.

[Reshma Saujani]

So even if you've ever doubted yourself, felt like you don't belong, or wondered if it's too late to reinvent yourself, this conversation is for you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I know this sounds weird, but, like, I actually enjoy.

[Reshma Saujani]

Now let's get started. Let's welcome Reshma Sujani to the Tamson Show. First of all, it's so good to see you.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's so good to see you, too. I know.

[Reshma Saujani]

I'm thrilled to have you here. You always make me think, like, you come into a room and we have a conversation. That is so I. I think for days after we talk.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I really do. Well, I'm so excited that we met, and Joanna introduces them. We've become friends, and I'm so excited about everything you're doing.

[Reshma Saujani]

Me too. I follow what you have going on. I've listened to a lot of things you've done before we met, and so I want to talk about some of that. But we want to talk about imposter syndrome today or the fact that you don't believe in it. You don't believe in imposter syndrome? No. Why?

[Tamsen Fadal]

It keeps women from achieving their fullest potential. Like, if I'm in a room, any room, and I ask, how many of you have not done something because of imposter syndrome? Literally every hand is raised. Wow. So the amount of dreams that are deferred, the amount of businesses that never get started, the amount of podcasts that never get started, the amount of, like, promotions that never get asked for because of this imposter syndrome is just wild. And so I realized that there was something there when I was actually on Stephen Bartlett's podcast. And I told the story that I've been telling forever about how I was asked to speak at Bill Gates Summit, right? And I'm invited to speak at Bill Gates Summit. And the woman who calls me to invite me is like, listen, we normally don't have a lot of women give keynotes here because it's really intimidating. And Warren and Bill are in the front row, but we think that you would be great for this. And I'm like, of course. Bring it on. And I remember I'm, like, sitting there backstage, and I'm like, damn, I only have eight minutes. I wish I had 12. And I'm like, how did I become this woman? Because, you know, Tamsen, I wasn't always that way. I grew up in Schaumburg, Illinois, went to public high school, went To University of Illinois. I wasn't around people with fancy degrees. And I was the girl that when I finally applied to Yale Law School after three times and got in and I would sit in my constitutional law class, I would never raise my hand because I felt like everybody around me was smarter than me, more qualified than me, and that I had snuck in the door, which I hadn't.

[Reshma Saujani]

Lucky to be there.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Lucky to be there. And it silenced me. And so I always overthought my potential, my voice. And it wasn't until I got the opportunity to start and found girls who code and be the CEO that I had been in so many rooms with so many powerful men. And after meeting all of them, I remember thinking, you're running. What? Like, like I say, like, me and my girls can run circles around you. Like, I wish that, that knowledge that I had, I used to always say, I wish I could bottle it up and, like, give it to all my girls who coach. Like, so you could understand far earlier in your career that you always were prepared enough, that you were always qualified enough, that you all. That they didn't have anything on us.

[Reshma Saujani]

We could sit here all day and say where that comes from, right? But when you say, I wasn't always that girl. So how did you get to be that girl?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I mean, I think I got to be that girl by recognizing, by quite frankly, meeting the people who I thought were smarter or more qualified than me and recognizing that they're not. And also recognizing that, like, I had fallen into victim of the cottage industry that is teaching women, like, you know, to build your confidence, to just, to power pose, to, like, get another skill, to read another book, right? To, like, that you are never enough. And I think this narrative that somehow as women, as people of color, we've snuck in the door, that someone has lowered the bar for us. And I think being a CEO, being someone who hires people, being in these rooms, being on these boards of Harvard or MoMA, it's like, I am like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. No one just lets us in. We have to cry, crawl, fight, push our way in.

[Reshma Saujani]

I always get so frustrated when I hear people like, oh, can you believe she's done this?

[Tamsen Fadal]

And this?

[Reshma Saujani]

I'm like, no, because she worked her ass off to do that. And so I, I, I look at that and I say, you're right. The imposter syndrome is really. It's not a thing. That's. That is not a thing. What do we call it, though, instead? Because we do have that. I mean, I have had that before where I, you know, I tell a story of getting up on a stage and feeling, like, in front of Martha Stewart. And I thought, oh, my gosh, everyone's so much. And after this speech, they came up to me saying they were so. They were so excited about the speech and made them cry. And I thought, wait, what? So that was me thinking I had imposter syndrome. Not necessarily what that was.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah. So, first of all, I think there's anxiety when you are the only one. Right?

[Reshma Saujani]

I agree with that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And that's a natural feeling. I feel that way when I'm in a boardroom and it's mostly men and I'm the only woman, and when I'm about to raise my hand and ask a question and, like, you kind of sometimes see that blank look, right? I'm like, oh, do they think I'm stupid? Do I belong?

[Reshma Saujani]

Do you still think that now?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I. Of course, because I still think it's like anything. It's like when you're meditating, do the thoughts still come? Yes, they do.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yes, they do, right? Yes, they do.

[Tamsen Fadal]

So you still. I think, because it's so ingrained in us to feel like we don't belong, that we are not smart enough, that we are not good enough, that we are imposters. That, of course, that comes, and then I have to be like, oh, let me recognize it for what it is. Let me tell you, Tamsa would help me get there. I'm a history nerd. And anytime I hear, like, my girlfriends do, like, any kind of negative talk, I was like, all right, what's that about again? I start hearing all of us talk about imposter syndrome, feeling that way myself, and I'm like, wait, when did imposter syndrome start? Where did it come from? And so what I learned is that imposter syndrome, you know, came in the 1970s. So in the 1970s, it was a big bellwether decade for women. Title IX, Roe v. Wade, right? We got control over our reproductive rights. Women started entering the workforce in droves. There was a shift in the culture. There was a shift in the workplace of more and more and more women. Coming in at that time is exactly when this term comes up, except it's called imposter phenomenon. And it was actually used and created to kind of describe white women. Phenomenon turns into syndrome. Now, anytime you put. You interview doctors all the time, so you recognize when you call something a syndrome, we immediately think, oh, that's biological. It's inevitable, right? That I'm going to. I can't help it. Most women think imposter syndrome is kind of like that. It's biological. It's inevitable that women. That I am going to feel this way at some point in my life. That's why it's so universal, going back to the fact that every woman will essentially raise their hand and say, I experienced this, and it prevented me from actually taking a step. So I think it's really important when we see these things in particular, for women and for people of color to recognize when did that term start and what context did it start in? And so I always look for what I call the cons. And imposter syndrome very much falls into becoming popularized in culture at a time of a tremendous amount of women's progress. Anytime you see women's progress. Right. You will see essentially a backlash to that.

[Reshma Saujani]

We're seeing it right now. It's so funny when we. We've always said, you know, history repeats itself. We know that. But it's always interesting to me to see how it's repeating itself within each one of our lives. Whether it comes to imposter syndrome or it comes from being a mom, it comes from midlife menopause. There's so many different places. Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That I see that backlash, like, you know, I call it in midlife. It's like the midlife penalty. And you see it essentially, like, you know, the biggest gender pay gap is actually for women over age 50, because we feel like, either, you know, you're going to have all these caregiving responsibilities or you're going to be experiencing menopausal employers. Like, it's not worth it. We don't want to hire women over 50. We don't want to promote that.

[Reshma Saujani]

Unbelievable.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And you see it with health as, you know, as the expert kind of in this field of, like, why is it that we don't invest in women's health? And we haven't talked about it. We don't talk about it. I posted about this. I had a breast cancer scare about a month ago. And, you know, I went and got my daily, you know, breast exam. I have dense breasts. They said, okay, we think we see something. Come back. Came back for the ultrasound, like, okay, we need to do a biopsy just to be sure. And, you know, like, any of us have a lot of things going on in our schedule. So I was like, okay, do I need to take something? Do I need to take the day off? They're like, no, no, no, you'll be fine. It's a little pinch. You're good now. As someone who's had a handful of DNCs and miscarriages and all the fertility stuff, that's exactly what they say about C sections, about DNCs, right? It's a pinch because they're doing it all the time. So of course I get my biopsy. It is not a fucking pinch.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's not a pinch, okay?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I have a fundraising meeting and a panel, you know, that I'm going to speak at. And of course, don't cancel anything.

[Reshma Saujani]

You had a gentle biopsy, is that right?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

Brutal.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's so painful. Your breast is like, you know, So, I mean, it is excruciating, actually. Like, you should not just take one day off, you should take a handful of days off. And the point is, is like, we do not value women's pain, and we do not invest the amount that we have to invest in women's health and women's research. I mean, listen, if men had to do that, they'd be like, take a month off, dud. And so the point is, and if these experiences are happening to you in your 40s and your 50s, at some point you're like, fuck it. And you pull back from your dreams, from your aspirations. And I think imposter syndrome falls into that same bucket, because you're like, if I'm never going to feel like I belong, if I'm always going to feel like I'm a fraud, imagine you're already showing up at work every day and you think that, like, you don't belong there, that you are not good enough. You know, that you are not worthy, and you're going through perimenopause.

[Reshma Saujani]

Now. It's biologically making you feel good now.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's just one thing on top of a whole bunch of other things. And I think the interesting thing about imposter syndrome, it's not something that you feel when you're young and it goes away.

[Reshma Saujani]

No, it intensifies.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It intensifies. And so I really believe Tamsen, like, those words that we use, that, to me, like, I think work, life, balance has impeded women's progress because you're like, wait, what the fuck? I don't feel any balance here. I must be wrong.

[Reshma Saujani]

How do I do that?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I must be doing something wrong. And so I think, you know, we as women, you know what I mean? We need to come together for, like, a house party and be like, all right, let's go into the dictionary and find all the words that have impeded women's progress, that have prevented us from actually living our Fullest potential, and let's stop using them.

[Reshma Saujani]

So you delivered a commencement speech in 2023, Smith College, and you referenced bicycle face.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Bike face. Bike face. And I see little bicycles all over my house now that people send me.

[Reshma Saujani]

Bicycle face for people that don't know.

[Tamsen Fadal]

So when the bicycle came out, you know, it had, like, one big wheel in the front and one tiny wheel in the back. So if you're riding it, you would tip over. And when the bicycle also came out, you know, it wasn't just used by men, but it was used by women. And it was used by women during the 1920s in the suffrage movement, you know, to go from, like, town to town to town, and they would affix their little suffrage signs to the front. They no longer needed a man to, like, pull up with a horseback and give him a ride. Like, it gave it around freedom. It built the movement. And as people saw that happening, people, what you saw happen was this term bike face come out. And because you would tip over, bike face was a term used like, your face is flushed. You know what I mean? You are like. You know what I mean? You're red, you're unattractive. And you would see these posters. And so it was used as a tactic to deter women from riding their bike. It was used as a tactic to deter women from making progress, to get the right to foam. And so to me, bike face is just like imposter syndrome, also used as these medical terms at a moment of enormous progress of women as a deterrence of that progress. And it worked.

[Reshma Saujani]

The con.

[Tamsen Fadal]

The con works.

[Reshma Saujani]

That is how we got here in all aspects of it, whether we're talking about work, we're talking about relationships, we're talking about physical perimenopause, menopause, which we'll get to. Girls who code. Yeah, moms first running for office. You've done some big, big things. When you. When you look at all of those things, is there a through line with all of them of. You know how you said, this is. This is what I want or need to do, or there's a space that needs to be filled here that I have to. I just have to. I'm waking up in the morning and I have to do this. I have to start, you know, girls who code. I have to help these young girls out. I have to help moms. What was that beginning notion of that idea?

[Tamsen Fadal]

So it's funny, as you mentioned, I think as I've gotten older, I might look back at my life, and I used to think it was A jumble of lots of different careers. But when I actually now think about it, I've always been doing the same thing. And I think when you get to a certain point in your career, especially if you are a hustler, if you are ambitious, right. If you like, that's what, like, I am driven. I'm a workaholic. I am driven by work. I am driven by output. And you do get to a certain place because things are happening with your age. I have two young children, right. My parents are getting older. Like, my body just doesn't work the same way. I can't take two red eyes in a row. That you start to say, is this what it's about? Is this what my life is about? Is this what it's supposed to be about? Is this truly making me happy? And at that moment, I really started going inward, more of a standing meeting with a monk every two weeks. And I have deepened my relationship with God. And what I realized in this kind of journey is that, like, my gift, and it's always been my gift is my voice, is my ability to communicate. And because of, like, my parents came here as refugees, I've always. When I see people getting taken advantage of, hurt, it just creates a. Like a. Like a fury in me, like a swell. Yeah. And I just. I just stand up and fight. And I've always been that way, you know, and like, I remember, I always say I grew up as, you know, a brown family, like in a very kind of white, working class neighborhood where there weren't a lot of Indians. One time someone had like, put on the side of our house, go back to your own country. And my father, that morning when I woke up, I saw him kind of just almost like humming a Bollywood tune, just cleaning the side of the house. And I remember looking at him being like, I will never be you. And I say this with respect, but, like, for a certain generation and certain people, it is not natural for them to go fight, to stand up and speak. That's always been in me and that's always been like my gift. And so I think that, like, I have always used that gift that I've been given from him, you know, to fight in particular for women and for girls. So whether it was girls who code, whether it's moms first, whether it's brave, not perfect, whether now it's women in midlife, it's kind of like really been a constant for me. Like I've been doing the same thing.

[Reshma Saujani]

No, I know. I love that because I see that through line in there. And so that's why I was wondering. I'm wondering if that was something that you knew was kind of a through line or you've discovered that now and you're saying you discovered it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I think I've discovered it. And I think oftentimes I love that.

[Reshma Saujani]

You know, it's your voice.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That's your gift.

[Reshma Saujani]

It really is your gift. It's how you talk, your cadence, your understanding of people, how you listen. I mean, it is. And I've known you a short time, but I know that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

No, I appreciate it. And I think you have that gift too. And I think the ability to take something one, I think that's universal, right? Like when I shared my breast biopsy story or I share, you know, my own insecurities, my failure, losing for office. Other people are like, oh, my God, I feel this way too. And you make people feel seen and not alone. That is very, very, very important, I think, for our society and especially in this moment where people feel an enormous amount of loneliness. I think the second thing is the ability to speak truth to power. Like, to me, like, what's the point of having power? What's the point of having a platform if you're not going to use it, not just for good, but to say the things that other people can't. I get into trouble all the time because I stand up to bullies, whether it's a company, whether it's a politician, whether it's somebody online. And I recognize not everybody has the ability to do that. So sometimes when I say something like I was, that's uncomfortable, like when you first did that menopause episode and nobody was talking about it and you knew people don't want to hear about that right now. That was brave. Not everybody can do that. And so if you know that you have the ability to do that, whether it's in your workplace, whether it's in your community, whether it is on tv.

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[Tamsen Fadal]

You need to do it.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's a responsibility to do it almost. And I also think this. I also think you can't help yourself but do it. Yeah. Like, I don't think I ever thought through, oh, gosh, what's going to happen if. I mean, I think I did a few times when I came onto social media thinking like, oh, boy, the bosses are going to see this. And I wonder if I'm out of a career. And then I realized, like, wait, there's so many more women that need to hear it than that. Don't like to hear it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

Those people that don't like to hear it, they just don't matter.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But it is.

[Reshma Saujani]

They're going to listen.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It is scary to be brave.

[Reshma Saujani]

It's scary to be the only one.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's scary to be the only one. It's scary to be attacked. It's scary. It's still, like, I think we're still invariably good girls and we care. We want to be liked.

[Reshma Saujani]

I do. I do. There was a book a long time ago, why Good Girls Don't Get Ahead But Gutsy Girls Do. That's what it was by Kate White. I read that when I was really young. And I'm like, I'm gutsy, but I'm more of a good girl right now, you know? And then I realized, like, well, I don't think so. But it took a long time to understand what, that. Because I read it when I was very young, I was just in my career in television, just getting in there and wanting everyone to like me, making sure I was the team player with. And I still want that in the back of my, my head. But I also know what's right for me.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I think you're right. As we get a little bit older and look back and look ahead, by the way, like, I. I'm in the. I'm in that middle place, you know, where I look back and I'm real grateful. But I also look ahead.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

At what else is there.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And so. And I think that, that what's ahead is much more important.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And it's. And it's. Look, I think it's tricky. I think it's. Look, it is absolutely harder to be gutsy when you're 20.

[Reshma Saujani]

Totally.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because you do, you know, you do have to sometimes still play the Game. Like I tell my, my 21 year old niece that all the time. It is absolutely easier when you're 70 to be like, no fucks given.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh, totally. Sometimes I can't wait. Right? Sometimes I can't wait to be able to say that and not care. And I was actually, I was talking to Johanna this morning and I'm like, do you think that Martha Stewart was always like this or do you. But I went back and I looked at the doctor. I kind of think she was always like that. So I was. And I'm gonna have to grow into it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But she paid a price for it.

[Reshma Saujani]

She did.

[Tamsen Fadal]

She paid a price. She paid a price for it. And I think I've had to learn and is like, I don't always have to engage in this fight. It might not be the right time. And then sometimes I'm like, oh, yes, I am now it is. And I think it's like there is that, that. It's that wisdom of like having the experience, both of your past and your future and saying when's the right time and the right moment? And I think sometimes, especially when you're fighting for other people. Right?

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. Well, you want to also do it the right way too. So it's, it, it's meaningful and not just loud. Right. You want it to mean something. It's not just so you can have a voice that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

You know, a voice in the fight. We talk about wisdom when we talk about looking forward and back. And I like the fact that you've become more introspective or looking in more. And I feel like myself doing that. A few years ago, I, I was waking up every day going, and this is before I even was talking about menopause. I was waking up going, now what? Like now, now what? Like I'm here. And I think it was similar to what I heard here. You say, which, is this it? Yeah, you know, and I, and I don't know where the voice came from. It just, I kept saying it over and over and I couldn't get an answer. And everybody I would talk to, I.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Would be like, well, so what do you.

[Reshma Saujani]

What's next for you? Or what do you. I wanted somebody to give me an answer. I was like that little, you know, duck that was like, because are you my mama? Goes, somebody tell me what to do next. And. And that's why I think this time is so fascinating and maybe why you're the same way I am about midlife. I just feel very. I want to know everything there is about it. There's not a lot out there about it. There's not a lot of roadmap. It can be really frustrating. I know that you've got a fun birthday coming up. Not a big birthday, a Fun birthday, turning 50. How are you feeling about it?

[Tamsen Fadal]

You know, I am feeling better. Like, I'll be honest, before part of why I started my podcast, my soul club, Midlife, because I was like, I'm fucking miserable. Like, I feel like my best parts of my career are over. I don't know what's ahead. I don't like the way I look in the same way. You know, like my, I'm, you know, my hair's getting thinner, I'm getting more wrinkles, it's harder to keep the weight off, right? I don't feel as strong, you know, like when I run, you know, five miles, if I don't foam roll, like, I'm done. I felt like my relationships with friends were like, you shed more friends the older you get. You can't make new friends in the same way. And so, and I was like, every day was Groundhog's Day. I was feeling really bored. And I realized a lot of people around me felt exactly the same way. And that's why they were blowing up their lives, right? Whether it was like getting a divorce, moving to an ishroom, like. And so that's why I started the podcast, to really get one, to get advice on some of the tactical things. Whether it's divorce, whether it's, should I take psychedelics, whether it's, how do I make new friends to people in their 50s, like Julia Louis Dreyfus or Yvette Brown or Chelsea Handler, who are actually crushing it. And one of the things that was so interesting, it's almost like every single person I've interviewed didn't feel the way I felt.

[Reshma Saujani]

Interesting.

[Tamsen Fadal]

They're like, oh, this is the best time of my life. Like, midlife is a mindset. And so I think after doing all of these interviews and having all these conversations, that's also shifted for me. Like last week, you know, we were on break and I was at the beach in Mexico. And normally when I go to the beach, you know, I'm staring at all these like 20 year old girls with their badass bikinis and their fit bodies and I'm like, I wish one, just one night, you know what I mean? Like, put me in like a time machine, just one night to know what it felt like to be 20 and free. And it was the first time that I didn't feel that way.

[Reshma Saujani]

Isn't that nice?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I was like. I was like, loving where I'm at, All of the imperfections.

[Reshma Saujani]

I'm becoming her.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

The women that you've looked at.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah. And it felt so I'm not fully there, you know, but I definitely am on, like, I'm on that journey. And I'm also like, you know, I feel like women have been, again, sold a con. And so, so much of, like, I told you, I watched Baby Girl last night. And it's like, you know, for so long, all the representations you saw of women, quite frankly, over 40, where they were haggard and old and tired and bitter and angry, and they weren't hot and they weren't sexy and they weren't attractive. And so you're seeing a shift in culture from like, Demi to Nicole Kidman and really shifting again. What it. What it. Like, it's hot to be 50. It's hard to be a mom. Like, it's hot. You know what I mean?

[Reshma Saujani]

It is.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And it's funny because it's also very. It's a very American thing. Like, if you go to Brazil, if you go to India, like, it's not this. They actually revere women. They're like, the older they get. So it's a very distinctly American cultural thing. And, you know, when I research started researching this, it's also been like, the first plastic surgery was done in the 1900s. It's like you just couldn't sell shit. You couldn't sell Botox or fillers or creams or, you know, weight loss drugs if you actually didn't convince women that the mirror should work in the reverse. So, like, to me, turning ourselves onto that, like, it's so funny. We look at Pamela Anderson without her makeup, and we're like, she is badass. But, like, that's bravery.

[Reshma Saujani]

I know, I know. Men don't walk around brave.

[Tamsen Fadal]

They don't walk around brave. Cause they don't have makeup on. So it's just like. And I do think if we can unlock this. And I think the work you're doing with menopause, because that's a part of it, it's hard to. If you feel like shit, you can't change this other aspect.

[Reshma Saujani]

You've got to have control somewhere.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Right?

[Reshma Saujani]

And I think that has to start with that physical feeling, you know, better. Better about your. Your body and how it aches and I can't go to the gym. But all those things that you listed, I was like, oh, gosh, I remember all those things.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I. And I had gone through a divorce in my 40s and then hit menopause and then didn't know what was going on and was on camera. So that, you know its own whole thing about, you know, fear and aging in front of a camera, which was a big part of my, my, my earlier life. And I think I feel the same way. You do. I don't think I totally feel, you know, like I have no more, you know, no more Fs to give. Like, I don't, I don't necessarily think I go all the way that way, but I do feel that. I don't know how to explain it. It's like a feeling of relax for a second.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Like, you got nothing to prove.

[Reshma Saujani]

I got nothing to prove. And so everyone. So I have to remind myself of that. And then I have to remind myself if I don't accomplish whatever that thing is on that timeline, that what's the worst that can happen? Yeah, I have to give my. I have to do that to myself to be able to breathe.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

You know, and so, but that's come with time. And I do want to go back those days ever once, you know, one day of the, my 26 year old, you know, belly ring on the beach, walking around, like, not a care in the world.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

But then I really also like where I am today, you know, and I do like the, the real relationships I have. Like, I, like I understand you immediately. When we first spoke, we first met, like, I got you immediately. And I felt really good when I left there because I was like, wow, somebody else that gets me. And I didn't really understand the importance of community or any of that stuff for a long time. Yeah, I was just a workaholic.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Now one of the things you just remind, like, made me think about, like, to me, when I was that 20 girl with the belly ring on the beach, didn't have a belly ring, but on the beach, I, I have the.

[Reshma Saujani]

Belly ring for us. Right.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I. It wasn't just about the way I looked. It was my excitement about what is possible.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And I think what is hard for women in midlife is you don't you think it's. If you didn't do it, it's done. And so to me, having more examples of women who actually began the height of their career when they were in their 40s or their mid-50s, I think having that excitement that like, they're like my best years are actually ahead of me is really, really, really important. And I think what we need and we just don't have, like, culturally, we don't put a lot of those examples forward.

[Reshma Saujani]

No, we don't. I mean, I don't think we had them for a long time or if we had them, we just didn't talk about them because they were, they were.

[Tamsen Fadal]

The only ones or they weren't even talking about that. Right. You didn't have the Demi Moore speech of basically being like I was. Everyone told me I was, you know, a popcorn actress. And I kept, I knew that there was something left. And so many of us have that feeling. Like, I feel like I actually haven't done my best work yet. I really feel that way. And people are probably like, what do you mean? I'm like, I've done such kick ass.

[Reshma Saujani]

Work, I can't even imagine.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But I don't feel like. And my psychic backs me up. He's like, you know what I mean? Like, you're a late bloomer.

[Reshma Saujani]

I love that.

[Tamsen Fadal]

So when I wake up in the morning, I kind of like, I bound out of bed.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah, me too.

[Tamsen Fadal]

All right, what's coming? You know, like, what's in my inbox? What things are coming my way? You know, what exciting projects are happening or what? Like, and I think that, that I want to give that to women.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, I think younger women need it too, because I don't want them to hear our conversation about perimenopause and menopause and be like, oh my gosh, it's so scary. So I try to make sure that that feels like a little more powerful than weak and meek and like, this is it and this is what you've got to look forward to. So work really hard before you get there. And then, because it's all going to suck. It's all going to suck. You know, you're going to be invisible and not relevant.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I think you're on mute. Workday starting to sound the same. I think you're on mute. Find something that sounds better for your career on LinkedIn.

[Reshma Saujani]

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[Reshma Saujani]

Foreign. Hey, everybody, it's Tamsen Fadal. I am thrilled to announce my how to Menopause book tour. For the first time ever, I am on the road and I cannot wait to meet you in person. Join me in a city near you to talk perimenopause, menopause and how to take charge of your health at any age. Tickets are on sale now. Head to tamsenfadell.com booktour and get yours today. Okay, so I wanna do a couple of things. Cause I wanna make sure. We've had a lot of questions about this, about reinvention, about how you start over, how you get unstuck, imposter syndrome, all that stuff. And I also wanna break down kind of these first steps to breaking free from the mindset. Because some people don't think it's gonna take them five years to figure that out.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

But I wanna start with this. Cause we got this from a listener. Melissa out of Dallas, 48. I feel like this is me. I could have written, you know, Left her corporate job, 20 years trying to figure out what's next. Here's what she wrote. I spent my whole life following the rules, climbing the corporate ladder, being the dependable one at work, at home. Now I'm starting this new chapter. But I feel lost. And I keep asking myself, what if I'm not good enough to do something new and fail? I know I shouldn't think like this, but imposter syndrome is holding me back from even trying. How do I begin?

[Tamsen Fadal]

So I always say. So I felt when I started Girls who Code, I had come from a failed congressional candidate. I had like. I was broke. I had put all my money into this campaign and not working for a year, I was humiliated. Like, I was like the laughing stock.

[Reshma Saujani]

Of, like, do you think you are?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Oh, no, no. I definitely was like, why?

[Reshma Saujani]

Because. Why?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Well, I mean, if you look at stories like I. That were out there, it was just like. It was. It was rough. Like, it was rough. And like, in my heart, I thought I was going to win. And I told everybody that. So I think. I think. And listen, I think at that time. And it's still this way. Like in politics, they say they want new blood, but they don't want new blood. And so they really try to squash you. So the day after my loss, somebody was calling me, being like, you did a great job. You raised $1.3 million and had Jack Dorsey and John Legend and like, created this big movement. What's next? There was no phone call. There was no pickup. And that's hard.

[Reshma Saujani]

That's hard.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But my point is, is like, I. I, in that experience, saw my vision for girls who code, because I would go into these classrooms, and it was like, all boys learning how to code and no girls. And so. But from that perspective, I could. It wasn't the moment where you would think someone would be like, oh, I'm gonna build a movement. But I was like, I'm gonna take 20 girls, and I'm gonna put them in a classroom, and I'm gonna teach them how to code. I'm not gonna build a movement. I'm not gonna build a nonprofit. I'm gonna do a little pilot. So. And I'm gonna tell everybody about it. So, like, my advice, when you're feeling like an imposter or I'm afraid to fail, is to take. Identify one step that is doable and then tell everybody about it. Because I think the thing with us as women, it's like, it is important for us to hold other people, have other people hold us accountable. So when you start talking, and then you will also find people who will want to help you.

[Reshma Saujani]

I love that advice because I think that sometimes what we do is think we can't tell people anything.

[Tamsen Fadal]

We hide our dreams.

[Reshma Saujani]

Successful until it's perfect.

[Tamsen Fadal]

We hide our dreams. We hide our dreams because we assume that there isn't a community there that wants to hold us and help us actually achieve those dreams. Make those introductions. Write a $200 check for your investment. Do that thing. I think the second thing I would say to her, too, is that I told you imposter syndrome is a lie. It is a trick to make you feel that you are not good enough. So imagine any other thing in your life where you feel like you have been told something or that was there to actually impede your progress and your growth. This is that thing.

[Reshma Saujani]

So what do you do with it, though, when it comes into your mind like, oh, I'm not good enough. It's not quick enough. It's not. I do think starting in that small way and not trying to be up here telling people is brilliant.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I think it's like, when it comes to your mind, accept that it's normal to feel afraid. It's normal to feel scared to leave something that you've done for so long and to do something new is scary. I feel scared every single time I launch a new thing. I'm sure you do too.

[Reshma Saujani]

I called you telling you I was.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

I said, I have this Idea. But I don't know what to do, and I don't know what it is. Is it something?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Of course, but. So that feeling of feeling scared is normal. Okay, but then what is what. What I think you want to, like, divorce that from. Is this feeling that you are not good enough to go do that thing that you are an imposter.

[Reshma Saujani]

And it's okay if you're the only one, too.

[Tamsen Fadal]

That doesn't make you. If you're the only one, I think.

[Reshma Saujani]

That'S a big deal. So recognizing it, normalizing it, and realizing that we've been tricked into believing that we're not. We're not supposed to be there. We're not that girl.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Like, if you say it when. When imposter syndrome comes up and you're like, yeah, it is scary for me to walk into my boss's office and ask for that promotion. It is scary for me to start this new thing that's normal. To feel scared. Everyone feels scared. It will go away.

[Reshma Saujani]

I like when you talk about bravery over perfection. Because that's, I think, what you're talking about the very beginning, starting it small, not trying to make a movement, not trying to. Not trying to perfect it before you go out there with it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah.

[Reshma Saujani]

I think bravery is something I've realized now in midlife that I have that I didn't know I probably had. When I was younger, I thought that I was just working. My head was down. I was head down, working really hard. Now I feel I can see some of those brave moments, and I give myself a pat on the back for them instead of trying to get it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

All figured out right now. And bravery is fun. I always think. Gosh, I always would say it. I always say, I don't want everything right now. I don't. I don't. But also, like, I get a high out of failing. I know this sounds weird, but, like, I actually enjoy rejection. And here's the thing. You don't learn if you don't fail. And, like, if you look at an athlete, if you look at anybody that is in anything that's, like, a competitive sport, it is that. Shot I miss, shot I miss, shot I miss, shot I miss is how you get really great. And if I'm gonna have one lifetime to, like, make the world a better place, I wanna be fucking great at it. But that means I have got to make mistakes and I have got to fail, and I have to put myself out there, and I have to put myself in uncomfortable positions. So I think we have to build the muscle of doing that. It is uncomfortable to ask somebody for help, uncomfortable to say, hey, Tamsa, will you introduce me to so and so, you know, or, hey, Tamsen, can I come on your podcast? Or, you know, whatever that thing that makes. Cause, you know, the thing is, is that women, we don't like to ask for help.

[Reshma Saujani]

Well, why is that? Because I. I have had, since I left my job over a year ago now, I have a tough time still asking for help. I think I told you that. I think I said I'm not comfortable picking up the phone. And I did that with you. And I was like, can we just talk for a second? I have this idea. And it was. It's one of very few times that I was like, oh, it was so well received. But. But it is. Why is that?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Because you don' Impose on someone. We're taught to, from the time we're little, literally from time we're 8 years old, to be good girls, to be nice, to be. To take care of others, and to not ask for anything for ourselves. I think the second thing, I really do think that we feel like if I tell you my biggest dream or my biggest aspiration, that you will take it from me.

[Reshma Saujani]

You think that? Yeah. Like a fear, then.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, I think we're afraid it's going to get stolen or it's going to get laughed at, or it's going, like, the immediate reaction from will be jealousy and envy. And look, there is some truth to that, because I think part of why we are still fighting for our reproductive rights, that we are still fighting for, like, basic things, is we don't have community in America amongst women. We don't have solidarity amongst. We still think there's one spot for one of us. If your podcast is great, that means my podcast can't be great. So I'm not gonna tell you anything about what I learned about doing something successful, and that is what is stopping us. So, like, to me, my revolt around that is to be as generous as hell. Take all of it. Take all my contacts, my relationships, my knowledge, my information. Because I feel like if you succeed, I will succeed. And I think that that's part of that, too. And men don't operate that way. You know, it's funny, I think they oftentimes also rally around, like, if so and so can become president, that means I can, too.

[Reshma Saujani]

And then they're friends with them, and.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Then they're friends with their relationship information that tell each other how much they make and what it takes and blah, blah, blah, blah. They are. They See abundance.

[Reshma Saujani]

They do see abundance way more than we do. My husband never understands that. I'm like, I can't. I. I had this idea. And he goes, yeah, but there's a lot of. And I. Right. So it's almost like he has to remind me that it's, you know, not. Not that I'm enough, but that there is enough.

[Tamsen Fadal]

But you live your life that way because I feel like I. You. I really interview every woman that's in menopause. Like, you know, I mean, you're. There's a lot of spirit of generosity around your work, which is why I'm.

[Reshma Saujani]

So happy these days. Like, I like that feeling. Don't you like that feeling?

[Tamsen Fadal]

Oh, my God. I get a high out of hooking a girl up.

[Reshma Saujani]

Me too.

[Tamsen Fadal]

I love it. I think it's. To me also, it's just because I know there were women who did that for me. Hillary Clinton did that for me. Like, there were people who've all, like, in my career, I am here because I stand on the shoulders of so many women, so many journalists who wrote about the things that I was talking about, so many women who wrote me my first check. Like, so to me, anytime I get an opportunity to do that. Now, look, it's hard to always answer every call and every text and every email, but I look for ways to, several times a year, change somebody's life. I see you do it, you know, and it makes me. My husband and I both live our lives this way as a team. Like, we act with so much generosity of spirit. I think that's something that we have to continue to teach by example.

[Reshma Saujani]

And I also think teaching younger women as they're coming up into this, because I feel like there's so much input, much more than I ever had of all these things, coming at them all different ways and not really being able to decipher what's going. Not not only what's most important, but what's going to make them feel that most fulfilled and bound out of bed every day. Because there's a lot of pressure out there for young girls.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah. I mean, and look, I think that this generation oftentimes is not moved by the same thing that we were moved by. And, you know, it's. It's fascinating. I think this whole influencer culture, everybody thinks that that's the way to kind.

[Reshma Saujani]

Of, like, be successful, make money, be seen.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Yeah, it's exhausting. If I never had to do social media, I'd be so freaking happy.

[Reshma Saujani]

I get it. I get it.

[Tamsen Fadal]

It's A means to an end.

[Reshma Saujani]

It is. And I. I think what I do like though about it, I would never have reached these women and understood what. What they needed in menopause and perimenopause and the help and the access. So that part I really enjoy. But I feel like I. I don't know this community well.

[Tamsen Fadal]

You know what? It's so funny. Like, I was when I was in Mexico, I had three women. I was there for 20 minutes. It was the most powerful. Like, I had three different women come up to me, you know, when I was in the Starbucks line, when I was buying a toy for me, and just say, thank you.

[Reshma Saujani]

Oh, wow.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And you're right. So what I. So when I say, like, so for me, for social media, it's like, I do it on my terms, and I'm not producing content to produce content for the sake of it. Because you have to feed the beast.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Problem is, is, like, kind of got to feed the beast to grow.

[Reshma Saujani]

Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. It's a delicate balance. And it's funny, I have the same thing when I. When somebody comes up and does that. Somebody. I was in Miami and this young girl hung her head out the window, and she was like, tamson. And then she put her fist up in the air and she's like, I'm in perimenopause. Like, it was very like this empowered movement. And I just went. And then she just drove off. And so my husband's like, what did she say? And I said, she said, she's at perimenopause. And he goes, did you say something? Like, were you putting your hand? I was like, no, it wasn't. It was just really cool, though. I thought that was really cool. And it means that we're not embarrassed by those words, and we're seeing them and learning about them and understanding about them, and I hope shaping them and looking at them differently.

[Tamsen Fadal]

And I think personally, like, this is fucking hard work. It is like, I have given my body, my life, my soul to this work. And I used to feel for a long time it was very important for me to be humble. I am very disciplined about ego balancing, not letting it influence and not letting it be like, ugh. Like, and my. You know, Raznath, my teacher, was like, no, no. Like, this is kind of like the universe thanking you. And so take that. Take in that love, and it will help fuel you in your moments of exhaustion and feeling like, okay. Because here's the thing. I think with a lot of these Issues. It's like two steps forward, one step back. I realized that I may die without there being a female president. I may die not having my reproductive rights back. I may die still with not squashing imposter syndrome or not freeing women from midlife, but in my life, I actually gave it my best. And it's hard to live knowing that you may not accomplish what you've dedicated so much time. Blood, sweat, tears, sacrifice. But, like, it's like, you know, it's a warrior's journey. It's like. But it's still worth the fight, 100%.

[Reshma Saujani]

I mean, you interviewed Gloria Steinem. What was she thinking at 21 years old of what she was gonna do to where it is today?

[Tamsen Fadal]

I think she just. Yeah, I mean, and I think now when we say, oh, my God, this happened, she's like. She just has this beautific smile and energy, and she's still saying, right, we were there. It's like, but be joyful about it, you know? And I loved what she said when she said, every day I walk out of my apartment and I say hello to the first stranger that I see as a way of still practicing the art of, like, making connection.

[Reshma Saujani]

She is amazing. I've been to so many different events with her, and she doesn't. She doesn't. People do not stop coming up to her, first of all, wanting to take pictures, obviously, but then having us. These, I can just tell intimate, emotional conversations with her, and she is there for every bit of it, absorbing it, taking it off. Incredible. Yeah, it really is. It's really super special. What is one thing you wish you could tell your younger self is to.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Be brave, not perfect. Like, I think that we are taught at the youngest possible ages to strive for perfection, to be a good girl, to care what other people think, to shrink ourselves, to make ourselves small. And to me, when you start being brave, and I don't mean like, bravery of, like saving a baby from a burning building, but the bravery when you're walking down the street and someone bumps into you that you don't say, I'm sorry. You know, the bravery that when you're in a meeting and someone says, any questions? You immediately raise your hand, even though you don't know exactly what you're gonna ask. Like, the bravery in the smallest of possible ways, I think unleashes and unlocks this muscle that you need to, I think, achieve your. Your fullest potential.

[Reshma Saujani]

Thank you so much.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Thank you.

[Reshma Saujani]

Where can people find you?

[Tamsen Fadal]

So we have everything. You can find me on Instagram @reshmasjohni. You can find me at my so called midlife or wherever you listen to your podcast. And you can find me at momsfirst us.

[Reshma Saujani]

Thanks Reshma. Reshma has such an incredible way of flipping the script and making us question the things we've been taught to believe, like imposter syndrome. And she said it so powerfully. It's a lie, it's a trick. And that really stayed with me after this. We automatically think it's biological, inevitable, or some part of being a woman. But hearing her unpack the history behind all this, how it's not something that has to define us, was really eye opening. It's not about just fixing ourselves, it's about fixing the systems that make us feel like this in the first place. And the way she then tied it into bigger conversations about how we value women's pain or more often how we don't value it really hits hard. Whether it's a health scare, navigating perimenopause, or just trying to figure it out that now what? So many of us, including me, are looking for those answers and feeling like we have to fight to even be heard. So I also love when she talked about wisdom and cultural differences around the world, how women in other parts of the world are revered while here we're often told to just disappear. That made me really think what if we redefined bravery not as looking a certain way, but showing up for ourselves and being excited for what's possible. Because I see a lot of possibility with women out there. If this conversation resonated with you, please let me know. It really helps if you leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. It's one of the best ways to keep these conversations going. And if you've got any questions for me at all or one of our future guests, send them over to podcastamsonfidell.com and don't forget to follow us at the Tamsen show on Social for more inspiring moments and behind the scenes stories. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I'll see you next time on the Tamsen Show. The Tamsen show is an original production by Authentic Wave executive producers Scott Weinberger, Kevin Bennett and Rebecca Grierson Brand director Johanna Ofznik. Our line producer is Sabrina Sarre, Editing by Zach Smith and Marquis Harris US.

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