← The Tamsen Show
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Today's podcast is sponsored by MIDI Health. So many women tell me the same thing. They finally speak up about brain fog, exhaustion or anxiety and they're brushed off or told it's just stress or age. That kind of dismissal makes you question your own body. MIDI changes that by offering expert insurance covered virtual care that actually understands midlife and treats women like they matter. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script? Visit joinmitty.comtamsin today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's joinmitte.com Tamsen Midi the care Women deserve.
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A
Welcome back my friends to the tam. Can I just vent to you for a second? I am so tired of everyone scaring us about our health. I'm tired of asking why didn't anyone tell me this and what is going on with my body and it feels like as women we're always being blamed. And the one thing I'm hearing over and over from a lot of you is that you feel like you are eating the same way these days, working out harder than ever and gaining weight. Still waking up with that belly fat almost overnight. And I get it because I'm right there with you. I thought I finally had it under control. Then I went to the doctor last week and I found out that I have lost muscle and gained fat and I'm starting to feel like once I have one thing figured out and like kind of crossed off my list, another one gets added to it. So I have to admit when I found out about the weight gain and the muscle loss, I spiraled. I was up till 2 o' clock in the morning while I was sleeping watching every video I could find talking about this and in my doom scroll good news, I found today's guest. He is so brilliant and I cannot believe he is with me in the studio today. By the way, a little Secret. A few of you have already gotten a free copy of my book, how to Menopause in the Mail as a thank you for leaving a review. If you've gotten one, let me know. I'm so excited about this. Let me. How many books have we sent out so far, Johanna? 14. Okay, 14 books. So we have so many more to give. Leave your reviews. And some of you are going to get surprised with how to menopaust book in the mail. Your reviews, you know, really help what we're doing here on the Tamson Show. Okay, let's get back to our guest, Dr. Jason Fung, who is here to break everything down for us. We're gonna be talking about belly fat, food, noise, and why the same body that carried us through our 20s suddenly started playing by different rules in our 30s, 40s, and 50s. A little bit about Dr. Fung. He is a leading physician, a New York Times bestselling author, and his newest book is the Hunger Code, which explores why we feel hungry in the first place and then what changes that you can make starting today. So by the end of this episode and listening to him, you're gonna feel in control of your health. And this conversation is not just for people who are struggling with their weight. This is for you. If you wanna eat better and live well no matter where you are, I think you're gonna really love this conversation. Dr. Jason Fung, it is so nice to have you here.
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C
Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
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A
I feel like you're off of my computer now because I sit and I watch your YouTube videos all the time. You, you have written bestselling books and you've got another one now called the hunger Resetting your body's fat thermostat in the age of ultra processed food, which is basically what I grew up on. What made you write this book? Was there a trend that you have been seeing over and over again that makes you write the next book? And the next book.
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C
I think it's really that there's been a lot of research like recently in the last, say, five to 10 years on the role of ultra processed foods and also food addictions. And so this is sort of follow up to the obesity code, which sort of tried to move people away from this idea about calories. Calories, Calories. Which is, you know, to me, a very simplistic way of looking at foods. Right? So if you look, think about foods, they have calories. So each food has a certain number of calories, but that doesn't mean they're the same, because when you eat those foods, your body responds to them very differently. So if you were to eat, you know, 800 calories of, you know, a three egg omelet, it's very different than if you have a sugary coffee drink with a donut, which is also 800 calories. But the two foods provoke different hormones and therefore the effect on how much fat you store is gonna be very different. So that was the obesity code. But then I realized there's actually a lot more to it than that. So the role of ultra processed foods, which is not simply the carbohydrates or the calories, but how the food is processed, which is breaking that sort of food matrix. So how the food is sort of contained within that. Right. When you process it, you sort of break that matrix and it impacts the hormonal response and therefore how much weight you gain. But also food addictions, which another very interesting topic that there's been a lot of discussion about and led me to sort of look into the sort of other aspects of eating behavior. Because the thing about diets and why diets fail is because they're always like, eat this and not that, with the idea that all you need to do to change behavior is knowledge. And that's completely wrong. You need much more than knowledge. Right. Just because I know I shouldn't eat cookies doesn't mean I'm not going to eat cookies.
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A
Exactly.
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C
Just because I know I should exercise doesn't mean I'm gonna exercise. So there's sort of three main components to that. Right? There's the knowledge you need to know about something. Right. But that's the most basic level.
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A
And that means understanding what the food is, what it does. Is that what it is if it's processed, if it's fresh food.
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C
Exactly. Okay. And that's important, but it's basic, Right? So I know that eating vegetables is better than eating potato chips. Right. And who doesn't? Right.
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A
Except in the 70s, I don't think we knew that. Or in the 80s, I'm not sure that we cared.
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C
You had the baked potato chips.
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A
That's right.
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C
But that doesn't mean that you're going to change your behavior because obviously people do. It's like smoking, right? Just because you know it's bad for you doesn't mean that you won't do it. That's the most basic level. Because you have to know that to make the change. But then there's a whole emotional side of things and a social side of things. So that's the whole idea that the reason that you're eating is not simply because you know or don't know about a food, the knowledge, Right. It's also about the emotions and the social acceptability or not acceptability of that. Right?
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A
So what do you think that we're, I hate to say getting wrong, but what are we getting wrong about it? Is it that we don't know those other two areas of it or where our eating fits in? Because you're right. I know. You know, I always hate to say good, bad, but I know what's better for me versus the potato chips or the Diet Coke that I like to drink or the French fries that I like to order. I know the difference. But sometimes if I'm out at a dinner, I feel like it's okay. Or I go to the movies and I'm like, oh, it's fun. So what is it that we're getting wrong?
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C
I think the way I break it down in the heart hunger code is that you have to understand why you're eating, right? And it's very simple. If you think about eating, you eat because you're hungry and you stop eating because you're full, right? So then the question is, why are you hungry? Which is a really interesting question because there's more than just the physical hunger that we think about. The physical hunger where your stomach is growling, that's part of it. That's this homeostatic hunger and this body fat thermostat where your hormones are regulating. If you eat, you should not eat. But there's a whole emotional hunger, right? And that's in scientific terms, that's called hedonic hunger, which sounds a little naughty.
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A
Hedonic hunger, Hedonic hunger. It does sound a little naughty.
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C
But hedonic is a scientific word that means related to pleasure. And the point is that you eat because it feels good or it makes you feel better.
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A
Emotional eating, Is that what we call it?
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C
It's part of emotional eating, right?
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A
Us non doctors call it emotional eating, right?
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C
But it's more than that, right? It's also pleasure, right? So if you think about dessert, you eat dessert because. Not because you know you're physically hungry because you just ate a nice meal, you want to, right? It looks good, you want to eat it, right? It gives you pleasure. It sets off dopamine neurotransmitters, lights up your reward systems, right? But that's where ultra processed foods really becomes a problem because they have ways, and there's many, many different ways with artificial flavors and sweeteners and colors and texturizers and all this sort of stuff where they can increase the hedonic component, the hedonic hunger, or the emot side of things. And it can also lead to food addictions. But the thing is that if you're eating for this emotional hunger, right? This emotional eating, then you have to understand that that's why you're eating. Because then that brings into play a whole different set of tools that you have to do. You can't just say, you shouldn't eat that because it's not good for you. Those brownies are not good for you. Like, who doesn't know brownies are not good for you, right? Everybody knows it's not good for you. Yes, but you want to at that point. So you have to understand, hey, why am I eating this? Right? And that's where things like mindfulness come in. Because you have to. Well, you know, I understand that I'm eating this because of the hedonic hunger, and I should satisfy. But what I'll do is I'll take just this little bit, and then I'll try to do something else. Because if so, comfort foods is another example, right? You break up with your boyfriend, girlfriend, and you eat a whole tub of ice cream, right? That's hedonic hunger, right? That's not physical hunger.
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A
No, but that's emotional. I'm upset about something. I want to make myself feel a little bit better.
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C
Exactly. But that's real, and you have to understand it. And the first thing is to be aware of it, right? You have to be aware that this is the problem. Because if you understand that this is the problem, this is my problem with eating, is that I am doing this because I'm just bored. I'm looking for that little bit of pleasure. Then you can say, oh, I get it now. This is my problem. I need to go find. Maybe I need to go for hikes. Maybe I need to talk to friends. Maybe I need to pick up a new hobby. Maybe I need to do knitting or whatever it is to satisfy this sort of emotional hunger, this hedonic hunger, as opposed to using food for this. But you have to understand that that's your problem in the first place. Because if you don't understand, then you'll never be able to solve it.
- [10:40]
A
It's really because I think about, like, so last night, for example, I was totally not hungry, and I said, oh, my God, I got some Tate's oatmeal raisin cookies. I'm just gonna have one. Don't know why didn't eat it, wasn't hungry. I had four Tate's cookies. And then it felt terrible. Not about myself, but just like, it just didn't feel good to have that much sugar. What should I have done after I had that one?
- [11:02]
C
You know? So again, this is the sort of hedonic hunger. And then you have to say the way to counteract it is sort of mindfulness. Right? Mindfulness is not about not doing it. It's about understanding why you're doing it and accepting it. Right. But you've made that decision that, hey, I'm eating this because this is just a little bit of, you know, something I do because it's pleasurable.
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A
Yeah.
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C
So therefore, I will have this one. But the second one, then you start to think again. Okay, I still understand that this is about hedonic hunger. Do I really need it? Do I really want it? And that's where, you know, on the edge, you might say, okay, maybe this. I don't actually need this. Maybe what I should do is take a nice hot bath or something like that. Right? Because I need. I still want that little bit of pleasure or whatever it is that I'm looking for. Right? But you have to understand what it is you're looking for. So once you understand that, you can say, okay, now I understand that I can use something else to fill that sort of void, if you will, that emotional hunger. But you have to understand it, right? And most people never talk about it, right? So it's about cultivating that.
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A
I mean, I've never even heard the word before you. Yeah, before I saw it, and I've never heard it before. I read it in your book. So you have physical. Your stomach's growling, you have emotional. I'm either broken up with my boyfriend or, hey, it's fun. We're having a good time. Let's have some dessert or Fortes cookies. What's the third type of hunger?
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C
The third type is a sort of social hunger, which is called conditioned hunger. And so conditioning is a term from behavioral psychology. And what it means is that you compare two things together, and the classic experiment is Pavlov's dog. So what they did was if you give dogs food, they'll salivate, they'll become hungry. And if you ring a bell and then give them food, what they'll do is associate the two things so that when you ring a bell but don't give them food, they will still salivate and become hungry. So you've paired the two things, and you think about what happens in modern Day sort of life, right? We've paired food with almost everything because you pair it with the time of day. So as soon as you wake up, you eat. When you get a coffee, you eat. When it's lunchtime, you eat. But when you get in the car, you eat. When you go to the mall, you eat. When you go to the movies, you eat. When you sit down at the habit.
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A
It's just a habit.
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C
It's habitual. But the thing is that you're creating because every time you get in the car, hey, you know, you're like, I'm missing something. Hey, every time you go to the coffee shop, oh, I should get a donut. And then you go to watch a sporting event, oh, I need something to eat. You didn't actually need anything to eat because you're watching this great sporting event. So you're not emotionally hungry, you're not physically hungry, but you've got this conditioned hunger, which is again, important because if you don't know about it, you'll never be able to fix it. But you've got all these tools from behavioral psychology because we think that weight loss is all about, like, nutrition science. Nutrition is the smallest part of it. Once you understand the nutrition part of it, that's the basics, right? You gotta get to the emotional side and the social side. And again, it's like you can start to then use these tools and say, okay, I understand that this is my problem. Every time, you know, I watch TV and every time I sit in front of the tv, I go get something to eat. I need to now switch this. So now I just.
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A
Is that conditioned hunger?
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C
This is conditioned hunger. So this is the social sort of hunger. It's the social, behavioral sort of hunger. And it's again, I think, what drives a lot of eating these days. And it's not by accident. Like, it didn't happen by accident. It happened because food companies are constantly advertising, right? Here, eat this, eat this, eat this, eat this. You go to the mall, there's smells and there's billboards and there's everything to create this conditioned hunger. So now you go outside and every three minutes it's like, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Right? We're like Pavlovs dogs, right? We're getting all this conditioned hunger, and we don't even understand why we're eating all the time.
- [14:49]
A
Let me ask you this, let me go back, because I want to talk about ultra processed foods and how we actually define those. But you're right about that. I've never thought about it. You walk down the street. I live in New York City. You walk down the street, there's a coffee shop, there's a bagel shop, there's a pizza shop. There's another pizza shop, another. You know, and so you're right about that. And it's really interesting. It's not what it was years ago. Do you think that's really changed? I think it's changed. Companies understand that there's money. What is it?
- [15:15]
C
Yeah, it's changed a lot. And I think that if you go to other countries, you don't see that. Right. So if you go to, say, Japan, there simply. Isn't that. Right. You're not allowed to eat on the street. Not. That's not allowed. But socially unacceptable. Right. And that's where the social part of the equation is really important. And you just don't snack all the time. So when you eat, you're gonna eat, but when you're not going to eat, you're not going to eat. It's not like here in New York where it's like when you eat, you eat, but when you don't eat, you're also eating, right? You're walking, you're thinking about eating, you're going to the mall, you're thinking about eating. You're watching basketball, you're thinking about eating. Everything has become so paired, and you see the results, right? You take a Japanese person in Japan, and their risk of obesity is extraordinarily low. You move that person to San Francisco and the rate of obesity basically skyrockets. The same person, it's just that the environment has played such a huge role in shaping your behavior. So this sort of behavioral component is actually huge because you can take the same person who knows the same knowledge about foods, right? You take an Italian in Italy, again, the risk of obesity is extremely low. You plop them down in New York City and their rate of obesity just skyrockets. If your friend becomes obese, your own risk of obesity goes up over 100%.
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A
Why is that? Because your exposure.
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C
Yeah, it's because of something called social modeling. So this is the whole social aspect. There's conditioning and social modeling. So what you do reflects what is influenced to a large extent by what other people do. So if you are surrounded by people who are always going for a hike in the mountains, right, In Denver or something like that, then you're going hiking. If you're surrounded by people who switch their fries for salad all the time, you're gonna switch your fries for salad. That's just the way life is, right? And you have to understand that because it's like they're gonna have a big influen that the Japanese person in Japan, they don't walk around eating all day or even thinking about eating all day. So they're not getting that conditioned hunger. They come here, they don't even realize it, but everything around them is saying, yes, it's socially acceptable to be eating all the time. Everybody around you is eating all the time. And therefore that's what they do, right? You think about these meetings, right? You think about these work meetings, right? And it's like so years ago, if you're at this board meeting or whatever, you're bored. You're just bored. Now. You're bored and eating the cookies that somebody put in front of you. Exactly. A plate of bagels, a plate of muffins.
- [17:42]
A
I think about the family I come from, you know, and so I'm Lebanese and Italian. And so food is a big part of everything and it always had been. But I make jokes a lot about my family. We'll be eating breakfast, talking about lunch. We'll be eating lunch and we'll be talking about dinner. And we'll be eating dinner and we're all full and can't move. And we'll be talking about breakfast. Breakfast. Is that conditioned hunger? That's not environment or that's just my family.
- [18:07]
C
I mean, that's. I think that's a lot of families. But the thing is that that's okay because it's like you're eating at a time that you're mindful of what you're eating, you know what you're eating. You're eating like not ultra processed foods, right? It's not like you're gonna have lunch and gonna have a big bag of chips and, you know, some other, you know, ultra processed, like cookies and chips sort of thing, Right? That's not what you're talking about. Right. You're talking about real food, so processed foods. And you're talking about eating at a time that you're supposed to be eating. Right? So this is the thing about, you know, understanding the sort of whole complexity of eating behavior. If you think about having a plan, you really have to answer the sort of who, what, when, where, how, right? So if you think about the standard advice, eat fewer calories. Does it tell you who to eat with? No. It tells you where to eat, when to eat? No, none of that. Right. But if you think about the whole emotional side of things like who you should be eating with, you should Be eating at a table with other people. Right. Because that's gonna make a difference. When I eat with my family, I eat reasonably well. When I eat with my high school friends, it's not that good. Right. A lot of sugary drinks and a lot of fried foods. Right. So it's not the person, because I'm the same person, but it's who I ate with. Right.
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A
It's your environment.
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C
It's your environment.
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A
So what do you suggest? That somebody's listening right now and goes, okay, you know, I do go to those board meetings. I do like to spend time with my friends. We do like to go out and get a drink. Obviously, we hear over and over everything in moderation. But what do you tell people who say, like, how can I take control of this situation? So for the next 30 to 40 years, I'm not talking about diets all the time and worried about, you know, food all the time, because that is, you know, I came. I'm an 80s girl. I came through the whole, you know, diet, every diet under the sun, and it's exhausting. It's just exhausting. And recently found out I was pre diabetic. I feel like I eat pretty well, so that was a shock to me. And I'm hearing a lot of other women talking about this. In particular, are you seeing any kind of trend or people coming to you talking about this?
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C
Yeah, I actually see this a lot. And this is not something that's actually discussed in most places, but because I treat sort of thousands of people, I've seen it a lot. And this is called latent autoimmune disease in adults or L A D A Lada.
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A
Okay.
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C
And the thing is that there's two types of diabetes. There's a type 1 and a type 2. Both have high blood sugars. That's what diabetes means. So both will look the same. If you check the blood sugars, they'll be high. But one of them, type 2, has very high insulin levels, and type 1 has very low insulin levels. So they're very different from one another. Because if you have very high insulin levels, then you want to bring those insulin levels down. And that's through low carb diets, fasting, you know, food. But if you have very low insulin levels, that's a completely different thing. You don't want to treat it with drugs that are going to lower the insulin. You want to raise the insulin, and sometimes you need insulin, and that's a totally different disease. It's not a dietary disease.
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A
What do you do? How do you know the difference between those two?
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C
I guess the key is to measure the insulin levels. Obviously, if you don't measure it, you don't know because. And most people don't measure it. So you measure this thing called the C peptide, which is a longer, sort of lasting version of insulin in the body. Insulin goes up and down very fast. So if you measure the insulin levels, it fluctuates wildly. The C peptide will still fluctuate, but it's not as wild. And what you'll see over time is that people have a sort of normal or high normal C peptide at the beginning of their diagnosis. So it's often hard to tell whether you have type one or type two because. Because it's not high and it's not low. So some people get called this type 1.5 diabetes. But if you follow these people and it's often over five to 10 years, you'll see that their C peptide levels, average levels, will keep dropping until they're quite low, and only then do you know they actually have LADA and not type 2 diabetes.
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A
Wow.
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C
Yeah, it's really. I see a lot of these patients so often.
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A
Is LATA treated differently? Do you treat that? Because I was put on metformin, but it made me really sick. I did it for about a week, a week and a half, and I was nauseous all the time.
- [22:03]
C
Yeah. It's a different treatment paradox, because, again, there are certain treatments that are designed to lower insulin levels as opposed to these ones that raise it. So the ones that might raise it, for example, are sulfonylureas and insulin. And then the autoimmune part of it, there's no known cause, there's no known treatment for it. We don't actually know what causes it, but it's been increasing in prevalence. So before, type 2 diabetes was considered 95% of adult diabetes. And that's why if you had diabetes, it was basically assumed to be type two.
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A
Okay.
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C
This LADA is a type one, or this type one in adult sort of thing is an autoimmune disease, but it's been increasing in prevalence. So just like celiac disease has been increasing over the last few decades, the LADA has also been increasing in prevalence over the last few decades for reasons that are unknown.
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A
Is it food?
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C
Nobody really knows. So it could be the foods, it could be the chemicals, it could be the microplastic. It's really hard to tell, but. But the fact that it's increasing in prevalence means that if you have that diagnosis, there's A higher chance than just the 5% baseline chance. It might be closer to 10 or 20%. But you find it especially in people who are not who you expect to have type 2 diabetes. So people who are eating well, very concerned about their health, exercising, slender like you, these are not the people you expect to have type 2 diabetes. In that case, you have to really think, is this actually lada or type 1 diabetes in adults? And that diagnosis is impossible if you don't have the insulin measurement, because that's the main differentiating factor and also very difficult if you're not following people over an extended period of time.
- [23:46]
A
So you need to have the right test for this.
- [23:47]
C
You have to have the right test.
- [23:50]
A
Oh, gosh, I love this time of year. There is something about this time of year where I just want to move, I want to walk, I want to get outside, I want to just get in motion. Long walks, workouts, being outside again, it makes me rethink the basics I'm wearing every day. I've been getting back into my lifting workouts and bomba sports. Socks have been such a game changer. They're cushioned where you need them, they stay in place and I'm not distracted, like, like adjusting everything all the time. I can just focus on moving and you know, I love my morning walks and you know what happens when I put my boots back in the closet. Then I'm all about comfortable footwear. BOMBAS has warm weather footwear and it's back in rotation station. It's lightweight, supportive and perfect for travel days or for just running out the door, especially when it comes to their sandals. Even their basics, though, has surprised me overall. The tees, the underwear, they're soft, they're breathable, and they just feel like an upgrade from what I was wearing before. This is also a part that really matters to me. For every item you purchase, an essential clothing item is donated to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated with over 150 million donations and counting, that is pretty amazing to me. Head over to bombas.com tamsen and use code TAMSEN for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O-M-B-A-S.com TAMSEN code TAMSEN at checkout. This show is sponsored by Midi Health. I remember it sitting in the doctor's office, listing off everything I was feeling. Exhaustion, brain fog, mood swings, sleep, all of it. And getting nothing but a vague smile. And this is just part of getting a little older. No test, no plan, just a brush off. And I thought, is this really it? If you're in midlife and feeling dismissed or unheard, I want you to know you're not imagining it and you're definitely not alone. 75% of women who seek care for perimenopause or menopause symptoms, they walk away untreated. That is outrageous to me and it's why I'm so grateful MIDI exists. MIDI is a virtual clinic built specifically for women in midline by experts who actually get it. They're the only women's telehealth platform covered by major insurance. So it's not just high quality, it's accessible. What I love most, their clinicians listen one on one, face to face. They take the time to understand what you need and create a plan that works. This is the care we have been waiting for. Go to joinmini.com tamsin and finally feel seen. Ready to feel your best and write your second act screen? Visit joinmitty.comtamsin today to book your personalized insurance covered visit. That's joinmitty.comtamsen Midi the Care Women deserve. How do you tell somebody? Here are some of the guidelines that you can have to make it a little bit easier because we're so inundated with eat protein, eat fiber, do this, do that. How do we simplify it for people listening right now?
- [26:42]
C
And that's what the hunger code is really about. It's not about sort of eat this but not that, right? Because we're. Diets really fail hugely is that this is that sort of conceit that this is all about that, right? Just about the foods that you eat. So if you just eat low fat, you're gonna be fine. If you just eat high protein, you're gonna be fine. If you just eat this or this, that's not it at all, right? It's about understanding sort of the most important aspect. So that's where in the book I go over the three sort of golden rules, right? And there's a lot of other sort of tips. There's 50 weight loss tips, right? But there's three golden rules. One is avoid ultra processed foods because that's going to be huge. If you eat natural foods, your body actually knows how to handle it. So when you're eating, say a big, say for breakfast you have a big, you know, steak and eggs or something like that, right? You're going to be full until lunch, right? But if you just eat like four donuts, which is probably the equivalent calories, you're. You're hungry, like literally like 30 minutes later. The difference is because of the foods. Yes. But the other thing is that they work completely differently on the emotional side of things, right? So remember the donuts and ultra processed foods, they're designed to light up your reward centers, right? So you're gonna get this big sugar rush, you're gonna get this big high and then a big crash, right? You don't forget about that. Whereas the eggs, right, they've got this sort of nice, even keel. You're gonna be full, you're gonna stay full, and then eventually you're gonna slowly drift down and you're gonna get hungry for lunch or dinner, right?
- [28:14]
A
So you're not gonna be going up, down, up, down. I think what's interest actually is that I remember the time when eggs weren't good for you and steak wasn't good for you. So we're really having to retrain our brains of those natural foods like you're talking about.
- [28:28]
C
And I think that's the important thing. That where the science is going is that for a lot of years we were very reductionist in that we're saying that this is the only thing that's important. Fat, right? How much fat? Or of calories. That's the only thing that's important. That's not the only thing that's important. Because there's a huge, huge difference between sort of ultra processed foods, even if they have the same calories or if they have the same carbohydrates or whatever, and processed foods. And you can do experiments to show this. And they've done them, actually. So there's an experiment, for example, where they compared. It was oats. So steel cut oats. Steel cut oats versus instant oats. And the difference.
- [29:11]
A
Steel cut is natural.
- [29:13]
C
Steel cut is. Yeah. So they basically take the oats and they use a steel blade and they cut them into little pieces. Pieces, Right. But a lot of the grain is still taken and it's harder for the body to digest. So the rise in glucose is much slower as opposed to the instant oats, which are ground to a very, very fine dust. Right. That's why when you just pour the hot water in, it cooks. And the steel cut oats takes like 45 minutes to cook. Right. So the difference is not the food. It's the exact same calories, exact same carbohydrates, exact same food. The processing is different and that makes a huge difference. So if you look at how quickly the. The glucose spikes up in the ultra processed, the insulin, it goes way up and then it crashes. And then you get hungry and that has a measurable difference on the hormones. And then when you compare how much people eat at lunch, at the next meal, there's a massive difference between the two.
- [30:02]
A
So it's not whether you had steel cut.
- [30:05]
C
Steel cut or instant. Yeah. So difference in glycemic index, different hormones are measurably different. And how much you eat afterwards, measurably different. How hungry you are, measurably different.
- [30:16]
A
Are instant oats considered ultra processed foods? So let's go over some of the ultra processed. Like we know the donuts, we know the chips. Basically anything in a bag or box, is that correct? Anything, whether or not you're getting it at your health food store. And it says, but we don't have sugar in it, it's molasses.
- [30:30]
C
Yeah, pretty much everything. Yeah. There's a classification, although I think it's a very preliminary classification because it's still very broad. So basically there's a, it's called the Nova classification. There's four different catego. There's sort of unprocessed, sort of processed ingredients. There's processed and then there's ultra processed. And ultra processed is pretty much everything in the bag. Anything with chemicals or, you know, the xanthan gums and the carrageenans and the stuff that. The stuff.
- [31:00]
A
The things we can't pronounce.
- [31:01]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [31:02]
A
The list that we cannot pronounce.
- [31:03]
C
Exactly.
- [31:04]
A
But we know it tastes good. So that's ultra process. So your first golden rule is to avoid ultra processed food. The second golden rule is make sure
- [31:13]
C
you have an adequate fasting period. So the fasting period is very important because if you set a rule for yourself that you're not going to eat, say between 7pm, say after dinner to breakfast, what that's going to do is do something called counter conditioning, which is basically conditioning pairs two things and counter conditioning sort of unpairs them. Right? So if you eat every time you sit in front of the tv, then you've paired the TV and the food and therefore you sit in front of the tv, you want food. If you have a rule that you're not going to eat between say 7pm and 8am or something like that, then even if you watch TV, you're not eating right. So therefore you're going to then reinforce to yourself that, hey, this is not a time to be eating right and you can do other things like after dinner, brush your teeth and again as a reminder to yourself that, hey, I need to make sure that I don't do this so that I don't get in these bad habits, right? And I don't create the conditioned hunger. Right. And that's important. Important. And remember, the fasting does a lot of good things, right?
- [32:12]
A
So let's talk about what the fasting does and define fasting because I think that, you know, I've even been a little confused about it. So I've done intermittent fasting where I don't, you know, I don't eat for like up to 16 hours. But what do you think is ideal? Fasting them? And now there's a lot of, you know, there's studies out there that say, no, you should eat all of your meals so you get enough protein and get enough fiber. So what do you think is ideal? Is it the morning tonight, the 7pm to whatever time in the morning?
- [32:38]
C
Yeah. So the, there's lots of different ways and there, it all depends on what your goals are. So fasting is merely a period of time that you're not eating. When you don't eat, you're allowing your body to use up the calories, right? So remember, body fat is a store of calories, right? You're going to eat more calories at that moment in the half hour of dinner than you're going to be able to use. Your body stores it, right? And that's so that you don't die in your sleep like every single night. So the point is that when you,
- [33:05]
A
it's a good goal not to have or to have.
- [33:08]
C
So when you eat, you store calories. When you don't eat or when you fast. Fast is when you release those calories, right? So that's all it is. If you carry a lot of excess body fat, then you can go for longer and give your body more time to release that body fat. And that's a good thing, right? If you don't have fat, then no, you shouldn't be doing it. If you do have fat, then yes, you should be doing it, right?
- [33:28]
A
So what's a good time? You know, I always love, I love actionable so I can go home tonight and do it.
- [33:32]
C
So I think that the regular time should be sort of 12 to 14 hours, right? This is just normal. This is not for weight loss. This is like sort of every day, right? Which sounds really harsh these days, but if you think back to the 70s, you didn't eat after dinner, right? You didn't have snacks, right? You want an after school snack, your mom said no, you're going to ruin your dinner. Then you want an after dinner snack and you Said she'd go, no, you should ate more at dinner, Right. So if you ate dinner at 7pm and you ate breakfast at 8am, that's 13 hours of fasting that people did every single day without calling it fasting. Right.
- [34:05]
A
That's not even knowing. It was just normal, not even knowing.
- [34:07]
C
And if you're a bad boy and got sent to bed without dinner, you're doing 20 hours and nothing happened, right? No, no, bad things happen. So yes, you can go 20 hours, you can go 24 hours. It depends on your goal. So your goal should be 12 to 14 hours every single day without even considering it as anything.
- [34:24]
A
12 to 14 should be normal. No matter what you are, no matter what you weigh. If you're, you know, you know, normally thin, you should still do that to make your body healthier.
- [34:34]
C
Yeah. And this is just about balance, right? So when you eat, you're going to store calories. When you don't eat, you're going to release calories. So you want to keep those in relative balance. And the problem, of course, these days is that people are eating the minute they get up. Because people are saying, oh, you have to eat, you have to. Until they go to bed. Oh, you should take a snack. Right. So you don't give yourself an adequate fasting period. So that should be normal. If you want to lose weight, you can go up to 16, you can go up to 24, or you can even go to multiple days if you want. It's all on your goals.
- [35:01]
A
Here's a struggle. I'm going to give you. I'm going to give you a problem to solve. You've already probably already solved it. The big conversation now is you've got to get tons of protein, like your body weight and protein. I find it very, very difficult. We talk a lot on the show about it, especially for women that are, you know, are in perimenopause. All women really. But perimenopause, menopause in particular, to protect your bones. Can you do that and still fast or do you just have to really pay attention to what you're doing during those times you're eating?
- [35:29]
C
Absolutely. I mean, when you're eating, you should be eating higher protein foods if that's your goal. It doesn't affect your diet, it affects the of time that you're not eating. Now, obviously if you're going longer periods of time, then you won't get enough. But you don't have to get that amount of period all the time. Right. You can take more sometimes and less other Times, right? And that's the whole idea. It's flexible. There's a balance there. Like, if your goal is to eat more protein, then yes, absolutely, you can, because the fasting period doesn't tell you what you do and don't eat. You can eat whatever you want. That's your diet, right? It has nothing to do with the fasting. And I think, think, you know, again, a lot of the, the perimenopause is actually really, really interesting because I get a lot of these questions about calories, calories in, calories out. How can you deny it? Right? I always think, okay, perimenopause. So I, I'm always of the opinion that calories is not the only thing or even the most important thing. And so we've all heard that, you know, a calorie is a calorie, which is the idea that all calories are equal, right? And they are equal in terms of energy, but they're different in terms of what they tell our body to do. So 100 calories of cookies is different from 100 calories of broccoli. But this thing that, this story we've been sold, which is calories in, calories out, is that weight loss is all about calories in, which is what you eat, and calories out, which is exercise. So therefore, since you control both, it's up to you. And therefore, if you don't lose weight, it's basically your fault, right? Which is very destructive to me. It's a horrible thing to think.
- [37:01]
A
It is horrible.
- [37:02]
C
It's horrible. And that's what so many people say. And I say, say perimenopause is a perfect example, because think about it. If weight gain is all about willpower and discipline, then why is it that every single woman on the planet at the same time in their life, decides to lose willpower, lose discipline and gain weight? Now, if you've ever actually talked to these people, they'll tell you exactly that their diet has not changed an ounce, their activities have not changed a bit, and yet they're gaining weight. Weight. Why? Obvious. It's your hormones, obviously, right? So therefore, weight gain, weight loss is not about calories because that was not the problem. It's about your hormones. Now, can you change that? That's controversial. And so on. But on the other hand, it's clear, clearly disproves this whole it's all about calories notion that is so disruptive because it's like you're blaming the wrong. You're blaming somebody for something that is not their fault. Right. You're blaming the wrong victim.
- [38:01]
A
I'm so glad we're starting to have that conversation. You know, I was 20, in my early 20s, and I had a. I had an eating disorder. You know, I was. I didn't eat, and then I would eat a whole bunch, and then I would try to exercise it off or do something else to get rid of it and go back. And I was on a terrible cycle for a very, very long time where hair was falling out, where I was. You know, an eating disorder is you constantly have that food noise to another level in your mind, even after. After you've gone through that period of time, if you're lucky enough to be able to get through that period of time. And I look at it right now, and when we do blame willpower on something, I said, no, that's not what it is in any way. And it's interesting that in perimenopause you say that. That is exactly what every woman I have ever talked to says. I'm eating the same. I might even be working out more. I might even be watching what I'm eating more than I ever have paid attention to it before. And I'm still finding this weight.
- [38:54]
C
Yeah. And I think what, you know, looking at this sort of broader picture of hormones, which is all about homeostatic, that's the physical hunger tells you, is that, okay, this is perimenopause. So therefore there's changes in estrogen, progesterone, which is affecting your sort of how you eat and so on. It's increasing your hunger. Therefore, what else can I do, Right? Maybe you can't change the hormonal balance in that case, but maybe you can, can affect other things, such as insulin, such as sleep, such as cortisol, such as the emotional hedonic hunger, maybe can affect the social hunger because you have to use these other levers to sort of fix the problem that is coming because of the estrogen progesterone sort of axis, right? And it's like, okay, now you've got a plan. Whereas before when you said, oh, it's about calories in, calories out, you should eat less, right? It's like, that's a terrible idea.
- [39:46]
A
It's a terrible idea.
- [39:47]
C
It's a terrible idea because you've not actually understood. Understood anything. And all these calorie bullies are all like, oh, it's all calories in, calories in.
- [39:55]
A
Calories are sitting on all of the things that we go to, whatever, a bakery or someplace, and they've got the labels on everything. And you look at it and you're like, no, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna do that or I'm going to do that. And so I think there's a lot of confusion. What do you suggest to the woman who is going into perimenopause or is in perimenopause and has said that exact sentence, I am eating great, or I'm eating about the same. I'm working out like I always used to work out. And I gained 10 pounds seemingly overnight.
- [40:24]
C
Yeah. And that does happen. And that's the sort of challenge is that's where you have to start to say, okay, well, now I need to be more strict on some of these other things because I know I'm not getting that protection from that, right? And there's another thing that's very interesting because estrogen drops as you go into menopause and perimenopause, right? So what people find is that they get a bit of a pain belly, right? And it's like, oh, what the hell's happening? Right? It's. Well, I'll tell you, it's your hormones, right? So when girls go into puberty, their estrogen goes up. They actually develop breasts, and there. There's fat on their hips. The fat percentage increases, but it's actually not a bad thing because it's the subcutaneous fat, not the visceral fat, right? So the subcutaneous is the under the skin, so your hips and your breasts. And that's actually not dangerous fat. So that's why girls, even though they have more fat than boys, have less heart attack. So during the menstrual period, they less heart attacks and they lose that protection because what happens is the estrogen goes down, which then redistributes the subcutaneous fat back to the visceral fat, which is the dangerous fat. And that's the fat that's carried around the belly. And that's where you see all these women are like, oh, what's happening? I'm not getting this belly now. It's like, well, obviously it's your hormones, right? It's not calories in, calories out, because that has nothing to do with it. So then if you understand that, hey, this is an estrogen progesterone problem, but I can't do anything. Maybe you can. Maybe you can talk about hormone placements, right? That's a whole other discussion. A little bit. It's a little bit out of my depth, I think. But the point is that if you know that that's the problem. Then you have to say, okay, well now I have to use other issues. I have to deal with the other hormones that I can affect, right? Which is the food. So cutting out ultra processed foods, maybe it's driving down your insulin with fasting, maybe it's changing your. So one of the other important things is to redesign your sort of social and physical environment. Maybe you can go and jo join a hiking group or walking group or something else that impacts so you're not surrounded by the food noise all the time, which is that conditioned hunger, right? That bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. So you have to say, okay, I need to use another lever. So let's look at the ultra processed foods, let's look at the fasting, let's look at the social and physical environment, the mindsets and all that sort of stuff. And that's what you can do. Is it going to take care of the root cause? No, but you can't really take care of it short of pharmacologic means, right? Because this is what's happening naturally. But the thing is, if you understand that you're removing the blame part of it, right? That's the much, much more important is that people always get blamed. They get blamed by those calorie bullies saying, you've gained weight, it's your fault, you're eating bad, you're eating too many calories, you're not working out enough. But it's not, it never was, right? It was just a way for these people, who are usually men, who use that sort of thinness as evidence of their moral superiority, right? It's like, I'm thin and therefore I am a better person than you. It's like, no, you're not. The hormones, the estrogen, the progesterone in this case, right? And sometimes it's insulin, sometimes it's cortisol, right? Is what's causing the weight, weight gain, not some sort of lack of discipline and willpower, right? But to the calories person, that's all it is. And they're so pervasive in this society and it's so destructive, it leads to all this fat shaming, body image disorders, all this sort of stuff. Because thinness now equals willpower as opposed as a success.
- [43:53]
A
It equals willpower. It equals. And it's so unfair and it's so damaging. If there's one thing, and I know you speak to a lot of people about this, but if there's one thing you wish women would stop believing about weight, what is it?
- [44:10]
C
I think it's that it's their fault, right? That's the whole thrust of this calories argument. It's that it's your fault, but it's not. It's that they didn't understand. But what's, whose fault is that? It's the fault of the person teaching. It's all about this calories, right? If you have a school, for example, with 100 children and one child falls, maybe, maybe it's their fault, right? But what if 70 children fail? Is it their fault or is it the school's fault? I think it's the school's fault. Now we have a situation in America where 70% of people are overweight or obese. Is it their fault or is it the whole teaching that it's all about calories and this whole diet culture. I think the whole calorie counting diet culture is more responsible for more obesity than it solves. I think it causes more problems than it actually solves because I think it prevents you from dealing with the underlying problem. Problem, which is really the hunger, right? Is it the physical hunger, the emotional hunger, is it the social hunger? And then really coming up with a good solution. Because, you know, to me this whole eat fewer calories is such a superficial argument. It's like to the man with a hammer, every problem is a nail, right? So if your problem is perimenopause, how do you lose weight, eat fewer calories? Well, what about the perimenopause, right? If your problem is that your structure stressed and you're eating because you're stressed, the cortisol. The solution is to deal with the stress, not eat fewer calories. What if your problem is emotional eating? Right? Hedonic hunger. The solution is to deal with your emotions, not eat fewer calories.
- [45:39]
A
And that's what I love about this, because you have solutions for each one of these. So it's not just, it's not a one size fits all, you know, why somebody is feeling that hunger. When I found out that I was pre diabetic, I completely blame myself. I was like, it's the Raisinets. I'm eating at the movie theater. It must have done this. I couldn't imagine how somebody that has paid attention to food for a long time, maybe too much attention, and does work out on a regular basis, could be pre diabetic. And I was hearing all these words that I thought were like kind of old people words like your thyroid, your cholesterol, most of it all going back to menopause. But I did do that blame game for a Very, very long time.
- [46:20]
C
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the whole thing that you have to understand that it's a complex medical problem, right? Just like cancer, just like heart disease, just like everything. Why do we think it's just math, right? It's calories in, calories out. It's all math, it's all accounting. No, it's a complex medical problem. Let's see what the causes are. Is it stress? Is it emotions? You know, you hear these stories of people who, you know, are, say, the victim of childhood abuse or something, and they've become very obese. And then they realize that, hey, this is actually a psychological defense against that whole thing. It's like, well, obviously that's the problem. The solution is not eat fewer calories, right? It was this hedonic hunger, this sort of emotional side where they're, they're feeling safety in the food, right? Until you deal with that, you will never deal with the weight issue.
- [47:12]
A
Are you over 35 and confused about how to work out during perimenopause or menopause? I remember feeling exactly that way. My body was changing and I realized that the routines that once worked for me suddenly didn't make sense anymore. I didn't know where to begin. That's why conversations and real solutions around this stage of life matter so much to me. I'm excited to share a new midlife program that I contributed to with Megan Roope over at the Sculpt Society, a digital fitness platform created for for women. The midlife program was designed specifically for women in perimenopause and menopause and includes a structured movement program, symptom based classes, and an expert led guide to help you navigate this stage of life. The goal is simple, to help you feel strong and at home in your body again. I had such a great time working out with Megan the last time I was in Los Angeles. She understands how women's bodies evolve and built this program to support the changes that happen in ways many midlife. The program includes workouts that help you build muscle, support bone density, improve mobility, strengthen your pelvic floor, activate your deep core, and more. You can download the Sculpt Society app right now using code TAMSEN30. That's TAMSON30 for your first month free and start the midlife program today. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack, hydration and coffee sponsor. IQ Protein bars, IQ Mix, hydration mixes and IQ Joe mushroom coffees. They're basically delicious, low sugar brain and body fuel you need to win your day. I start every morning with IQ Joe. I keep an IQ Bar in my bag and in the studio for that mid afternoon moment. And I reach for IQ Mix after my morning workout. It fits into my day without any effort at all. And everything is clean label certified free from gluten, dairy, soy and artificial ingredients. Plus are packed with Lion's Maid and magnesium. With over 20,000 5 star reviews and counting, more people than ever are fueling their busy lifestyles with iq, IQ Bars, Brain and body boosting bars, their hydration mixes and their mushroom coffees. Here's what I like the Ultimate Sampler pack includes all three. And right now IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20 off of all IQ Bar products, including the Ultimate Sampler Pack plus free shipping. To get your 20 off, text TAMSON to 64,000. Text TAMSON to 64,000. That's TAMSIN to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. What do you recommend to somebody, aside from reading the hunger code? Dr. Fung, what do you recommend to somebody who is dealing with this right now and is listening and going, you know what? That's me. That is what I do. I have that emotional, it's not even physical. I have that emotional hunger. I have the environmental where I'm, you know, have the social. Is there something else you can do?
- [50:01]
C
Because again, you're pulling in from different aspects of science, right? So instead of just trying to use nutritional science, right, which is the physical side of things, I mean, but the calories is a very small part of it. But if you have an emotional side of things, then you have to bring in all these other things like mindfulness, habits, breaking habits, new habits, mindsets, all of these are extremely important. And then when you're dealing with the social, there's a whole area of behavioral psychology that deals with conditioning, for example, right? So conditioning and social modeling are the two aspects. So conditioning, there's something called counter conditioning and there's another technique called extinction, which are different techniques that are used in behavioral psychology to deal with conditioned hunger. And I mean conditioning, but conditioned hunger in this case and social modeling is another one where, you know, this is basically, you know, your friends have such an outsized influence, right? We know this from, say, peer pressure and all this sort of stuff. But now you can bring your tools from addiction medicine, you can bring your tools from behavioral psychology, you can bring your tools from emotional, which is mindsets and mindfulness. Mindfulness is actually a fascinating topic, actually, because it's actually one of the most important Aspects of weight loss that nobody talks about. People talk about eat this, not that. And. And it's like, but what about mindfulness and your mindset?
- [51:31]
A
Give me an example of mindfulness when it comes to weight loss.
- [51:34]
C
So the mindfulness and the mindset is basically, if you, for example, follow a diet for a long time or fasting or whatever, and your mindset is that, I'm not eating this because I know it's healthy for me, you'll do fine. But what happens is that you wind up adopting a deprivation mind mindset. So when you brought that deprivation mindset, what happens is that you think that this is something that I want to have but can't have it. So, for example, for sugar. So if you think that I really want this dessert but I can't eat it, that's a deprivation mindset.
- [52:10]
A
Not allowed.
- [52:10]
C
And I'm not allowed because I'm going to gain weight. And you know, you can't do that. That's never going to last long term.
- [52:18]
A
Every diet, I've done 50 diets.
- [52:20]
C
Yeah, exactly. It's a deprivation mindset. It's the wrong thing to do. But the reason you failed was not because of the nutritional knowledge, it's because of the emotional side. So what you have to do is change your mindset. And there's lots of different ways to do that.
- [52:33]
A
Can you give us a few?
- [52:34]
C
Yeah. So one of them is just simple repetition. So, for example, what I did for sugar, and a lot of people do this, actually. So if you see sugar as something you want but can't have, that's the wrong. That's a deprivation mindset. But what you have to do is see sugar as intrinsically sort of toxic, which it is. It's bad in very high doses. And so therefore what happens is that you can have it if you want to, but now you don't want to. Right. So I used to drink a lot. I used to drink coffee with two creams and two sugars. This was a Canadian thing called a double double.
- [53:08]
A
A double double.
- [53:09]
C
A double double.
- [53:09]
A
What is it?
- [53:09]
C
A double double sugar, double cream, double cream, double sugar. It's really sweet. So this is how I mean, it sounds great.
- [53:15]
A
I did it from Dunkin Donuts for a long time. I didn't call it a double double. I just said, put it all in there.
- [53:20]
C
Yeah, that's a Canadian thing. So I did it for a few years, and then about, say, 15, 20 years ago, I started to realize sugar is actually really a bad thing for you. So what happened is my mindset Change, right. As from mindfulness, from changing my mindset. I started to think, sugar is really bad for me. I actually shouldn't, not only shouldn't I have it, but it's actually really bad for me. Over time, your attitude starts to change. Then I now I haven't drank, put sugar in my coffee for like 20 years, but the benefits still accrue. Right? So the difference was that if I kept thinking that I want this, but I can't have it, I want this, but I can't have it, eventually you break down and then you go crazy and eat it. You know, drink double, doubles all day long. Right? But the point is that if you change your mindset, then you simply don't want it. And it's the same with, I find now with low fat. Right. So fat was this sort of demonized thing, right.
- [54:07]
A
I remember it well. They took fat out of everything and we threw sugar in.
- [54:10]
C
Yeah. And they took out the skin on your chicken breasts and all this sort of stuff. Right. But it was because of the repetition, it was the mindset. Everybody's like looked at it and felt like, oh, no, I can't have that. You're sort of semi revolted because of the fat or the butter. Right. You had to add margarine. Right. It's like, oh, that was a bad idea, by the way. But the butter was like margarine. Yeah, that's like, that was terrible. But you actually feel this sort of revulsion because of this constant refrain. But you can do that for yourself. And I do this with ultra processed foods now when I, I see stuff with a lot of chemicals on it, I'm like, whoa, I don't want this. This is terrible stuff. Right. But it's not because I knew how bad it was. That wasn't the only thing. It was only by changing your mindset that you can actually create lasting behavior change. Right. And that's the emotional side of things. And that's what you have to understand. So whether it's, you know, with fasting or with foods, ultra processed foods, food addictions, which is, is actually a very fascinating topic by itself, but that's where the mindfulness, knowing about it, understanding it, accepting it, and then creating tools for changing your mindset. And there's actually a lot of tools out there. You just have to know where to look. That's where you're going to succeed.
- [55:24]
A
I have one question because I, I used, you mentioned it a little bit ago and I, I don't want to overlook it. Insulin. What role does insulin play? In all of this, because I know that was. Was a big part of your other book.
- [55:34]
C
Yeah, so that was the insulin is a hormone. So it's a normal hormone. And its job, one of its main jobs is to tell your body to store calories. Right. And you store calories as body fat. Right. And the reason it's important is because different foods stimulate different levels of insulin. So, for example, if you were to eat, you know, 200 calories of eggs versus 200 calories of cookies, so what happens? Well, if you eat the cookies, your glucose will spike, wake up, which spikes your insulin. So the insulin is going to tell your body, store these calories. So those 200 calories goes straight into your body fat. The rest of your body says, hey, I got nothing. This is your liver, your heart, your kidneys. They got like, where's my energy? Right. So you need to go eat some more. Right. So therefore, you're not going to be full. You're going to want to eat more because all the calories are now locked away. There's nothing for anybody else. If you eat the 200 calories of eggs, well, instead of insulin doesn't go way up. So your body doesn't store the fat and the energy is ready for your, you know, available for the rest of your body. Your body's like, hey, you don't need to go eat. So even though those two are the same number of calories, what your body does with the calories is very different. So everybody thinks it's about total number of calories, but it's not. If you look at the energy balance equation, which says that body fat, which is a store of calories.
- [56:52]
A
Right.
- [56:52]
C
Equals calories in minus calories, calories out. People think that means that you just need to eat fewer calories, but that's not actually true. You can actually rewrite that equation and say calories in equals body fat plus calories out, which tells you for every calorie you eat, your body can either store it or burn it. But which one it does is incredibly important. If you store all those calories, you will get fat worse and you'll feel tired and cold and hungry. If your body instead burns it all, you won't get fat and you'll feel great because you have plenty of energy and no hunger. Right.
- [57:29]
A
That is the type of calorie it is whether we're talking about ultra processed or whether we're talking about natural foods.
- [57:34]
C
Exactly. Because it's the same number of calories. But the hormones, what your body does with those calories store it versus burn it depends on the hormones. So if you're ultra processed, it's all about insulin, insulin, spiking weight up there. You're going to store all of it, then you're going to be cold, tired, hungry, and you're not going to lose weight. Which is why, you know, everybody's like eating all those low fat foods, the snack wells and the rice crackers, and they're wondering, why am I hungry? It's like, yeah, because your body, you told your body to store all those calories. That's why you're hungry. Right. And that's why you're not losing weight.
- [58:12]
A
Is there a particular diet that you think is a good one? I mean, I, I grew up in a Mediterranean diet. Just because that's what we ate all the time. Is there one in particular you think is good?
- [58:20]
C
A lot of different diets can work, but the key is one that they're eating real foods. Right? That's the key. Because the real foods don't raise the insulin. Even if you eat carbohydrates, the natural carbohydrates don't stimulate the insulin to the same degree.
- [58:36]
A
Such as.
- [58:37]
C
So if you're eating a lot of beans or squash, it's very different than eating commercial white bread. So commercial white bread and cereal, for example, like breast breakfast cereal. Sure. They're like the worst things for spiking insulin. So insulin just spikes way up. If you eat squash, it's much, much lower, even though it's also carbohydrates. Right. And it's not necessarily just the carbohydrates, it's the processing of those carbohydrates that makes it bad. And so that's why a lot of different diets can work. And that's why people get into all sorts of arguments about diets. It's like, yes, all different diets can work. But what you have to look at is not the diet itself, it's what the effect on the body is, which is all comes down to the hormones. Because the hormones is telling you, do you store it or do you burn it? Because that is a critical, critical distinction.
- [59:21]
A
If we want to burn those calories, what foods? Give me five that we should be eating?
- [59:26]
C
Well, you want to eat sort of natural foods. So the easiest things are things like meat, seafood. Right. High protein foods basically. Right. Because they're less carbohydrates and the proteins are going to stimulate a lot of GLP1 which is going to stimulate stimulus satiety. It often comes with fat, which Stimulates cholecystokinin, which is another satiety hormone. So eggs, meats, and seafoods are great. You know, naturally high, unprocessed carbohydrates like beans and squash and stuff are also fine and also the basis of a lot of those diets. So on the one hand, cutting carbohydrates can be very good. On the other hand, it's mostly the refined carbohydrates that you really want to cut out. So eating a lot of those foods can be very good. You know, other foods that are, you know, great seeds are great, like chia seeds and flax seeds, things with fiber. So again, fiber is one of these things that doesn't get absorbed and creates a lot of satiety. Right. So chia flaxseeds, sweet potatoes are probably fine. If you start eating sort of get into the sort of processed stuff like sweet potato chips and all this sort
- [60:27]
A
of stuff, then you're still. I wasn't thinking of those, but thank you. Thank you for, for those. Let me ask you this. What other tests should we be asking to be done to figure out where our levels are? Should we be going to the doctor and figuring out what tests to do so we kind of know where our body sits?
- [60:42]
C
You can. I mean, the blood sugar is the most standard test, which is the hemoglobin A1C. And that's used to diagnose diabetes and pre diabetes. Right.
- [60:52]
A
I'm familiar with that one.
- [60:54]
C
The other one that I always measure, which is not often measured, is the C peptide. And the C peptide tells you about your insulin level. So it fluctuates. Just like blood sugar, it does fluctuate quite a bit. So you have to measure it over time so that you can compare. But since it's the insulin that's driving a lot of the problems, you want to know what your insulin levels are. Right? Because if they're super, super high, then you have to say, if they're super high, how do I get that down? Right. If they're not that high, maybe it's something else. Maybe it's your cortisol, which is your stress, stress hormone, for example, or maybe it's your estrogen because of perimenopause or progesterone or something like that.
- [61:29]
A
But at least that gives you a baseline and an area. Start looking.
- [61:32]
C
Yeah, and the. The main thing is that the reason insulin's sort of the key here, even though a lot of hormones affect it, that's the main one that's affected by the foods that you Eat. That's the main sort of change, right? Because you don't change your, say, testosterone or estrogen levels a lot by your foods. You can to some degree, but not a lot. Right.
- [61:51]
A
Do you think that if we learn how to reset our body's fat thermostat, we kind of take the power back from the blame game of calories or not feeling like we're eating well? I know. I read that the goal of the book, no matter what, was to make sure that we understand why we're gaining weight, then also understand how to eat well. Because this applies to everybody and to live well at the same time.
- [62:17]
C
Yeah, I think so. Because knowledge is power, right? If you know better, you can do better. I mean, if you. If you understand the disease process, like, because weight gain is a type of medical disease, right? It's not one specific thing, Right. Even though they try and say it's all calories. Calories. It's not. It's a million different things, including the hormones, including the emotional aspects of eating, including the social aspects of eating, including all these sort of various components. And you see that list, like 35, 40 different components, right? If there are 35 different things, one thing might be important for one person and something else will be different for somebody else, right? And this is where people get into arguments all the time. They say, well, I lost weight by following this diet. It's like, great, but this other person didn't lose an ounce on that diet. It's like, there's nothing wrong with that statement. It means that your problem was this and you fixed it. And their problem is like, say, lack of sleep. And when they fix that, they lost weight. And another person, I know they're going through a lot of legal troubles, for example, gained 50 pounds. And then they said, total stress. Then they said, when it all went away, lost the £50, no problem. Was that correct? Didn't even try. It was all cortisol. Right?
- [63:28]
A
Gosh, if we go back to the basics, maybe we'll be. It'll be so nice.
- [63:34]
C
Well, understanding is important, right? Or if you get to the emotional side, then you say, okay, well, now I know it's emotional. Now I know it's so social. Now I know that it's the sort of conditioned hunger, this food noise that's always in my face. Now I can do something about it. For example, you could. If you're the manager in an office, you can say, you know what? We're going to not have cake for people's birthdays all the time, because that's not fair to people. We're not going to have any food in the boardroom because again, that's not fair. We're not going to have candy in the bowls. I understand you're not doing this because you're trying to be mean, you're trying to be nice. I, I get that. But it's actually not fair for somebody trying to lose weight to be surrounded by food in a non food setting. Right. You eat in the cafeteria. That's how you did it in the 70s. It worked really, really well. It works for other countries too. This is where you eat. This is something else. This is your workspace. This is not where you eat. Don't eat here. Don't eat in front of your computer. So you set those simple rules, you tell people why, why? And now you can make real change because you understood what the problem was. Not simply that, hey, you're overweight, you need to cut your calories.
- [64:43]
A
It's your fault.
- [64:44]
C
It's your fault too. By the way, while they put out cookies in front of your face.
- [64:48]
A
Here's a muffin. Here's a muffin. I feel like I've learned so much from you today.
- [64:52]
C
Thank you.
- [64:53]
A
It is so good to have you here. Thank you so much. I was so excited. You were part of my scrolling at night and watching your videos over and over with millions and millions of other people. People. Thank you so much. Thank you for this book. I feel like I should have you back and, and see how people are doing after reading this because I feel like it really helps us understand what, what's going on versus having a list of right and wrong, you know?
- [65:16]
C
Yeah.
- [65:16]
A
Which is really nice.
- [65:17]
C
I, I hope to sort of broaden the conversation, if you will, away from the calories and blame game that we've, we've sort of focused on. Like, and not just it's everybody, right. It's the diabetes associations, the heart associations, all that sort of thing. It's all about the blame game. It's your fault, it's your fault, it's your fault. It's not, it's clearly not. Because it's like you take somebody and put them in a situation where they're going to fail and they fail and you blame them for it. Right? So it's like, but what can you do? Well, stop blaming people. Start understanding the situation. Then we can actually make real change. And so we really have to broaden this conversation. And I wrote this book because I don't think, I don't think it's talked about enough. Right. It's like you eat because you're hungry. So understand that hunger, where is it coming from? Only then can you actually make a start, right? But until you talk about it, how are you going to. How are you going to know about it? It doesn't even plug into your consideration that, hey, that plate of cookies at every board meeting, that was actually a
- [66:21]
A
really bad thing and not my fault.
- [66:22]
C
And not your fault. Right?
- [66:24]
A
I feel like this is a huge step toward that change.
- [66:27]
C
So thank you.
- [66:27]
A
Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Dr. Fung, you know what? A reminder. His new book is called the Hunger Code. It is out right now. If you wanna learn more, I will link it for you in the show notes. And by the way, if this conversation made you think about a friend or somebody who's been texting you about hormones or belly fat or cholesterol or whatever it is, go ahead and send this episode to her. Because chances are she's trying to figure it out like we all are. I hope today's conversation helps you feel a little more in control of your next chapter. And I cannot wait to hear what you think. All right, my friends, I'll see you next week. Today's podcast is sponsored by Midi Health. So many of you know this, but I was dismissed over and over again when I was struggling with perimenopause symptoms. I didn't even know I was in perimenopause. It is so important you're getting care from someone that specializes in women in midlife and that they're willing to have the hormone therapy conversation with you. I get questions from you every single day about where to go for support. And I'm always suggesting Midi Health. It's covered by insurance and you don't even have to leave your house. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script, visit join midi.comtamsen today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's joinmitty.com Tamsen Midi the CareWomendeServe Close your eyes.
- [67:42]
C
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D
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