← The Tamsen Show
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Today's podcast is sponsored by MIDI Health. I walked in with real symptoms. Brain fog, exhaustion, anxiety and walked out with nothing but a suggestion to wait it out. That's why MIDI matters. They actually listen and they treat what others ignore. This is midlife care that finally makes sense. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script? Visit joinmitty.comtamsen today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's joinmitty.com Tamsen Midi the care women.
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A
So what are the biggest mistakes that you see women making when it comes to money?
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B
Biggest mistake I think is we just think that we are not good at money. What? It's relentless and we hear it from so many different places and ways. Know that this is not rocket science. It's very straightforward and simple. I can tell you how to open up an investment account this afternoon within, you know, an hour for free. There is still a very stubborn sub community of women who refuse to believe that money can and should be something that they need to care about. They think it should be the men in their lives who provide for them financially. Call it what you want. I'm going to call it dangerous. Imagine a world where you can be the mom you want to be, be the wife you want to be, and be the financial badass that you need to be because you live in a world that is not going to wait for you to figure things out.
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Barnouch Chirabi is a leading personal finance expert who teaches women how to take control of their money, their mindset, and their future.
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It's long been proven from Harvard that when women don't negotiate at their first jobs, they're leaving so much money on the table over career, lifetime. She's leaving about a million dollars on the table because she didn't negotiate that first time.
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A
A million dollars. So what do we do today? We're talking about something that might make you squirm. Money. This topic made me uncomfortable for a long time. I avoided it. I didn't want to look at it. But that avoidance left me in a really scary place. I haven't talked about this openly, but my divorce left me over $100,000 in debt. I felt lost, ashamed, and completely out of control. And I never want to feel that way again. And I definitely don't want that for any of you. Money touches everything. Our choices, our freedom, our relationships. But most of us were never taught how to handle it, let alone feel powerful around it. There was one person who I confided in when I was dealing with my debt. Farnoosh Tarabi, one of the most respected voices in personal finance and author of A Healthy State of Panic, where she shows how your fear around money can actually become your superpower. I want you to leave this conversation we're having feeling more in control with real, clear tools that you can actually use. Whether you're home with your kids, rebuilding after a major life change, or just trying to get a better handle on those finances. Varnush is going to walk us through how to build confidence, protect yourself, and create real money independence. Before we get started, if you have a moment, please leave a review for the Tamsen show. The more reviews we get, the more people can find this podcast. So let's go ahead and get into it. Barnoosh, you know that you and I have shared a lot over the years. For people who don't know, I don't know how many years we've known each other, but it's been many decades, my friend. Right?
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B
Yes. At least. Yes. For sure.
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A
For sure. It's good to have you here.
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B
Thank you so much.
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A
You know, you have a podcast where you talk about money all the time, and I know that that is a really difficult topic for a lot of people, women in particular. Right.
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B
So difficult. We're not raised to believe that this is an area we have permission to hang out to want for money. I mean, do you know anyone who would outwardly say, I want to be rich? I mean, it's terrifying.
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A
No.
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And yet I think it's so, so important.
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A
Don't we think about it all the time?
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B
Who doesn't think about money all the time? It's one of the most prevailing, pervasive topics. But for so many reasons, women, we feel shut out of the conversation. We feel like we don't have what it takes. We also don't feel like it's appropriate because money is gendered. And again, we feel like I should just defer to the men in my life to answer a lot of these big questions around money.
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A
I wanna talk about what pulled you into this work, but where that came from. It's like women didn't even have their own credit cards or their own checking accounts. It was pretty recent if you actually think about it.
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B
It wasn't just thoughts in our head or the family we grew up in and our particular culture. It was the systems that we were Raised within patriarchy, capitalism, our laws, and I don't think it' in America. I think this is a global issue, a crisis, frankly. And only now are we starting to really talk about money. In the 20 plus years I've been working in this space, I can say that we're getting to a better place, but we have still so much work left.
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A
So, Farnoosh, what pulled you into this line of work?
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B
Well, I always say there's a personal and a sort of professional calling that drew me to this space. Firstly, I grew up in a family with immigrant parents. Mother was primarily a homemaker, f was an academic. And they thought about money a lot. I mean, I say this, and I think many people can relate to that. Push, pull around money. Growing up as a kid, on the one hand, my parents talked about money a lot, but it was a lot of, like I say, fists banging on the table while they were talking, and a lot of their conversations, the tension was around the lack of freedoms that my mother had around money and the control that my father wanted to wield around money. And so growing up, witnessing that in some ways, was a hard lesson and an amazing gift because I grew up terrified of becoming that person in a relationship who didn't have financial autonomy. And so that shows up in my personal life, in my marriage. But that, I think, also is what drew me to the work that I do. And when it came time to study and figure out the rest of my life in college, my father always said, get a return on your investment. And we weren't allowed to take out student loans, thankfully. And I was like, what do I study? You know, what's the most likely the subject I can study to get a return on my investment was finance. So I studied finance, but I always wanted to be in service as a journalist, as a storyteller. And so I coupled that with a degree in journalism and just started working in the world of financial storytelling and financial reporting in my early twenties in New York City. And fast forward to today, that work has expanded to multiple ways of storytelling, so podcasts, books, on a stage, on television, et cetera. But the mission has always remained consistent, which is, I want to ultimately help women advance, and what better way than with their money?
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A
I think your father would just pass out if he heard I didn't do the return on investment. I forgot the finance part of my degree and I just did the journalism part because I was never taught to look at it like that, actually. I mean, that is a gift in so many ways.
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B
The journalism later was a Hard sell for my parents, I bet it was a hard sell, but I feel like I eased them into it.
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A
Okay, good. You already got the return on investment.
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B
Exactly.
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A
So what are the biggest mistakes that you see women making when it comes to money?
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B
The biggest mistake, I think, is we just think that we are not good at money. What this message has just. It's relentless, and we hear it from so many different places and ways, and that can be an ultimate stumbling block. I mean, if you just don't think that you're gonna be good at something, you're not even gonna try. So that' first thing is just know that this is not rocket science. It's very straightforward and simple. I think that there is a fear of getting too close to it, and we'll talk about how it sort of untangle from that. And then I think the other mistake is just not really prioritizing your finances. It's an afterthought, you know, again, because maybe you'll think someone else will help me out, someone else will take care of this for me, that it'll figure itself out somehow, but it won't. We have to do it. Otherwise. No one cares more about your money than you, Tamsen. Right. Like who?
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A
I agree. Nobody.
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B
Your partner loves you, your family loves you, your friends. But money is so personal that it should be this way. I think it is right to say, this is my possession. This is my territory. I'm gonna take control of it. And. And I think, again, it's a mindset shift that is so critical that until we get there, the rest won't make sense. Like, I can tell you how easy the math is. I can tell you how to open up an investment account this afternoon within an hour, for free. But until we work on this piece of. I can do this. I'm entitled. I should do this. It's my responsibility. It's not rocket science until you sort of accept that the rest won't come to fruition.
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A
I love that you say that, because there's a lot that comes with it, Right. And I think some of my early thoughts were, it'll work itself out or I'll have enough time to figure it out. So I'm not gonna deal with it right now because that can't be the priority. And I know what it cost me. I know what it cost me, because in my relationship, we threw everything together. My first marriage, we threw everything together. I had no idea about anything. A lot of stuff was put on credit cards. We were starting a business, and it was to untangle that, and then to deal with that debt was insurmountable. Some days, like, some days I could barely get out of bed thinking about those numbers because I couldn't figure out a way to carve into it. When you're talking about $100,000 in debt and your job not even meeting those numbers and trying to figure out how to carve away at that, and it's all your responsibility in a relationship, it was just. It was a really difficult time. So I know that's in a lot of minds, but. But I have to say there's a cost of staying small around money.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
And I know what that cost is, but can you explain what that cost is for women that might not realize it?
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B
Well, let's just take a piece of this. When women don't negotiate, for example, their salaries, when we don't ask for what our value is in the marketplace because. And we didn't even talk about this, but I think a lot of women, and men too, but I think mostly women, we feel like if we make money, something that we really care about and center our lives around to some extent, that what does that say about us? It's not virtuous. Right.
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Sure.
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It feels greedy. It feels icky. And so.
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Well, not to men.
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B
Not to men. Right? It's exactly. So, again, let's get over that, please. You know, I mean, it's easy said than done. Easier said than done. But I think the cost to not, for example, negotiating for yourself, we know that just on that, like, so a lot of your listeners might be in their first job interview right now, graduating from college. It's important to ask for more than what is being offered to you. Employers expect you to negotiate. Don't be afraid. And you may not get the raise, but it's a muscle that you're flexing. And sometimes you will get the raise. And what we have, what studies have found, Harvard found that when women don't ask for more on that first job interview, that compounds over time, because guess what? The next job is largely based on what you were making previously. Because you go in kind of trusting that this is like what your market value is. But if you're not actually earning your quote, unquote, market value because you've been playing small and you haven't been asking for it, then the next job is going to reflect that as well. The best piece of advice I ever got around negotiation was you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. You have to be direct and ask for what you want. Which again, is very difficult when it comes to money. And I don't blame women. I mean, look, when you think about the workforce and our role in it, we have a shorter history than men, okay? So with that has to come an understanding that we're just still learning sort of how to navigate our way through what is still often a man's domain, depending on your profession. But I do believe that when more women ask for more together as a collective, the needle moves. Women are afraid to ask because of them. Like, oh, they might fire me. My mother got fired in the 80s for asking for a raise. She did, because she negotiated like a man. I just had a whole episode on this that like how you negotiate as women. I don't like to live in a world where there are differences between how men and women have to negotiate. But the science shows that when women go in negotiating like men, that it does not work always in our favor. We need to sort of speak about the communal benefits of how me advancing is great for everybody.
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A
How do you negotiate the way you're supposed to so you don't get fired or so you feel comfortable? And I will say that with the workforce being over the age of 42 right now, or people coming back and doing different jobs or saying like, hey, I'm, you know, 32 and I don't really like what I'm doing now and I wanna. I wanna change, go in and negotiate where it's not going to be offensive. Is that the right sentiment? I mean, I don't know. So you're not going to upset somebody's apple cart.
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B
It bothers me that it could be upsetting to someone, but this is the reality. So let's give women the tools to be successful. The first step is you have to do some research. You have to understand what competitors are paying. You have to understand what your skills are, what the economic value is to against your skills, and come in with sort of an understanding of that, plus your own sort of special sauce and what you're gonna bring to the table. I mean, look, at the end of the day, a company wants to pay you money knowing that it's going to be a return on their investment.
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A
Your dad was talking to them.
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B
It is numbers and sense, but it's also about kind of the grace that you bring to the conversation. So step one, do your research. Step two, it's about really understanding what the company, the person at the other end of the deal needs, right? What are they struggling with? What are they trying to. What are the demands? They're Trying to meet. And how are you going to fulfill that? So having a knowledge of how they're doing, and if it's a publicly traded company, you can look that up. You can see how their last quarter was. You can see their stock price. You can see if they had just a layoff. And so maybe now isn't the time to ask for the big raise. But, you know, you still want to ask for something. And I think it's important to realize that money is not the only thing that you want to negotiate for. Go in with at least a few things in your mind that you want to earn in addition to earning more money. What about a title bump? Because that also can help you. Maybe not in this current job, but the next job you go for to have a senior attached to your title. Right. That will automatically sort of elevate your pay potential. It happened to me once when I was in my 20s, I negotiated a title bump and I think it really opened up more doors for me as I was trying to go out there and get a book deal and get on television. And then here's the trick. When you ask for what you want, stay silent. Silence is really hard. It's really hard because we have so many great ideas about how we should make what we want to make and how we're gonna be a great asset to a company. But we need to sort of allow the other person to fill in some of that gap. And we don't wanna negotiate against ourselves. And that's sometimes what can happen when you over talk when you hear the word negotiate.
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A
You think you're supposed to be in a courtroom defending your decision, right?
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B
No, it's not a defense.
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A
So let's do. I would like to do a role play. Do you wanna be the person asking for money? I guess the right way to do that.
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B
Sure, sure, sure.
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A
Okay. Farnoosh, we think you're incredibly talented. What are you looking for in a salary? What would you like to make?
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B
Well, you know, I've done some market research, given what my previous employer was paying for a job that was actually a bit less than what I'm doing now. This. This would be a sort of response. My responsibilities would be more here. I'm really looking forward to sinking my teeth in. I've done some research, you know, outside of this, this company, to see what competitive pay would be in New York City, given my experience and my enthusiasm for bringing my skills and my. All that stuff to the table.
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A
I.
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And now in my mind, I know in my last job I was making $45,000 a year. This is not information I will tell the new employer, prospective employer, in fact, employers, it's against the law for them to ask you, at least in New York City, how much you made in your previous job. But knowing that, I want to go in and I've done my research, so I want to ask for. I'd like to. I think this job merits $90,000 a year.
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A
Then what happens?
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Then what happens is they say, well, it's silent. They're silent. I want people to have a lot of confidence in doubling maybe what they used to make. Because here's what I was going from a local news station to a dot com that was publicly traded. Like, the finances are different. You know, they're. I know what they're paying their reporters. Some of them are making six figures. I see their stock price. It's very healthy, you know, and where I was, it was before it was sort of a local newsroom.
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A
Let me tell you, they would have walked you right out of there the minute you said that amount of money.
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B
No, because I probably asked for that where I was, and they said no. But here's the thing, too. Before I went to the next job, I went to hr, where I was currently working, and I said, what's my salary band?
- [18:00]
A
What is it? Salary band.
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B
This is really, really important. So your salary band or your salary range is something that is available to all of us if we're working. Typically for a mid to large size company, you go into hr, this is what your company has essentially budgeted for your role, and you're going to be somewhere in that range.
- [18:19]
A
And do they have to legally tell you that?
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B
If you ask, I believe so. And they will not push back. Everybody can do this. This is golden information. Because one, if you're trying to negotiate for more money at your current company, because I knew this going into this next job that my old company could have paid me up to $90,000. I was making 45, and I had been there for three years. I felt like, well, but you were.
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A
Never gonna go in that job from 45 to 90.
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B
Maybe if I had been there for 10 or 15 years.
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A
Oh, yeah, sure, sure. But I'm saying not a one jump, right?
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B
This is why switching jobs is the best way to make more money in many cases.
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A
That's fascinating.
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B
Yeah. So I went in knowing that my local news job, had I been there for another 10 years, would have maybe inched up to $90,000. And here's my next company, which is more vibrant, more financially solvent. And really needs me. You know, I'm not a dime a dozen here where I was in my old newsroom. I'm, like, the only person who's gonna carry this department, and I think I'm the only one they've interviewed, so I'm gonna go for it. And I asked for 90. So now silence. And the hiring manager says, well, we don't have 90,000, but how about 75? And we will discuss a raise in six months. Now, ladies and gentlemen, nobody gets a raise six months onto a new job. I'm just here to tell you I.
- [19:54]
A
Was just gonna believe it and take it.
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B
No, no, no, no.
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A
Okay.
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B
So I knew that that was just a way to push it off till who knows when. And again, six months. Who's asking for a raise six months into a new job? This is the time to negotiate when you are about to go into a new job.
- [20:11]
A
So how do you do that? Next? Ask without feeling like, wow, I'm gonna really.
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B
I said this. I said, well, fair, but how about we settle at 80 and I won't bother you in six months? And I laughed again. It's like part of it is like a dance, right? It's reading the room. It's. This is. Okay, everybody, you're allowed to go back and forth. It's supposed to be a tennis match. And I think actually in that moment, I won some additional respect from my boss, who was essentially the one negotiating with me. Like, wow, this woman is.
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A
She knows her well.
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B
She's going.
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A
She knows what she's doing, right, Mika?
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B
And I got it, and I started to 80 grand. And the next year, I got to six figures. I hit 100,000.
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A
So you went over your asking price. I love that story. I think that's an incredible story. Okay, so let's go back to our, you know. Well, you basically did it. But that silence or that fear of giving an amount, I think is very scary. But there's not a way around that, right? I guess you have to do your research.
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B
You do your research. Be grounded in that. Before I went in, I also spoke to others in my field who were a little bit further along than I was to get kind of their perspective, like, what's fair, what's crazy? And it was my. I'll give credit to my colleague at my old company. She said, in this industry, in media, it's not unusual to go from one job to the next and double your income. You know, it's just kind of. That may seem crazy in other industries, but also, I was coming at 45. It wasn't like I was going from 500 to a million, right?
- [21:55]
A
No, of course. So do you think women should talk to each other about money? Is that something we should be doing all the time?
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B
I mean, I love talking about money and my girlfriends know that. And I like to. Maybe they won't talk about money with their other girlfriends, but they know it's a safe space with me. Definitely. I pride myself in that, that women can come to me and say, hey, I'm up for this job or I have this deal and what do you think? And this is how we lear. And I would also say talk to men. Talk to men about money.
- [22:32]
A
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- [24:11]
B
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- [24:17]
A
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- [24:18]
B
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- [24:20]
A
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B
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- [24:34]
A
Sadie is a Mochi member, compensated for her story. So what are the most common fears you see women have when it comes to this conversation?
- [24:47]
B
Well, there is this fear of losing money and not having enough, right, that the bag lady mentality is prevalent, as unpolitically correct as that is. But it is very much like this fear of I'm gonna retire alone and broke and no one's gonna be by my side. Women do outlive men. We are getting divorced and so there is a likelihood that you will be on your own two feet. And if you don't have a foundation that is yours, that is a financial foundation, that is strong and that is yours. In those moments that may feel inevitable to some, that's terrifying.
- [25:27]
A
Let's go in to talk about solutions because I think that that's important. Where do we start with some of that? There are non negotiables that every woman needs to have in place, whether she's alone or whether she's with a partner.
- [25:40]
B
You need savings, you need your own credit, you need investments which would then support you in retirement and in your future. I'm not talking like trading stocks for the thrill of it, but to secure your future. So you need money for today and you need money for your future. And credit is sort of that bridge.
- [26:00]
A
That allows us to credit card, credit.
- [26:02]
B
Cards, but even like your student loans that you're managing well, building a credit history and a credit profile that is strong and reputable can allow you to borrow money at low rates to get the home, get the car, start the business. All these things that we want to achieve. That takes a bit of financial engineering with a loan or credit card. So there are just too many women that are dependent on others for these things. And I love that there are so many women willing to be full time caregivers in our lives. It's so important, right? There's, there was a time and a place where I may have been very, how shall I say this? I was skeptical of like the stay at home mom path. You know, I was like, how's this going to, how's this going to work out for her? I'm worried about her and I'm still worried about her, but my tune has changed. To sort of focus on the solutions. Like if you're going to take that path to be a stay at home parenthood, then you must please have a conversation with your partner about how your financial security can be secure.
- [27:15]
A
A lot of people are like, it's everything I can do to get enough out of this paycheck to even think about that. How do you create a rainy day fund? What needs to be in that? I know we've heard six months of salary in case you. But how do you even get to that place with a rainy day fund?
- [27:31]
B
Not even six months of salary. I would say take your bare bone expenses every month. Go look at your last few bank statements. What are you in your credit card? What are the fixed expenses like your rent, you know, food, things that you absolutely need to cover. Gas, insurance, utilities. What is that? That's not including restaurants or clothing or gifts. It's just the bare bone necessities. And multiply that by four, five or six.
- [27:58]
A
Okay?
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B
Okay. And then I know that can't happen overnight. So start to get on a schedul to get that bucket filled where every PayCheck you're contributing 10, 20% to get to that place.
- [28:10]
A
So you want to automate.
- [28:11]
B
Automate is so important. We can't be trusted. Trust me, I myself included. So lean into the technology. Automate those. If you don't have your own credit card because maybe you share one with a partner and that's fine. I share one with my husband. But also have your own credit card as well. I have a friend going through a divorce and my first piece of advice to her was make sure you have your own money and your own credit line.
- [28:40]
A
Yeah. I want to address people that are going through a divorce, might be contemplating a divorce, have gone through a divorce. Because I do think that that is a confusing part of things. You know, a lot of times there's either, you know, they have one account that they've done together and if that's the case, that's great. But oftentimes that's not the case. And they've got a lot of things intermingled with that. So you need to step, you need to have your. If you can get your own credit card now for the credit portion of that, to establish your credit, to establish.
- [29:09]
B
Your credit to have Runway as well. If you have to get your own apartment or just hire a lawyer, you know, you have to start putting money on credit so that then you can pay it off. I know my friend who's going through a divorce is also looking for A job. Now she hasn't been working for a while. She's just trying to catch up because it's hitting the fan, you know, and she really needs to get moving.
- [29:34]
A
Let's talk about investments. Because I think that that was always a confusing place for me. I feel like my brother learned everything and I knew nothing. And I don't know when these secret conversations were going on or if they were. And I don't even think they were secret conversations. But for some reason he understood it in college and I still sometimes don't understand it. So let's talk about investment versus savings and what those two things mean and where to start.
- [29:57]
B
So when we're talking about saving your money, we're talking about money that you're putting aside that is accessible. We're not risking this money. We're not putting it in the stock market. We're just putting it in a bank account that is insured and we have access to it in an emergency or through a checking account. That is savings, investments. I like to talk about investments for the long term. We're not talking about trading, we're not talking. You know, often when men talk about investing, they're not talking about the kind of investing that I support, which is this idea of investing for your future in a boring portfolio that is diversified, that is low fee. They're talking about risk. Risk and trading and buying this stock when it's low and selling when it's high. And that's fine. But that's gambling. And if you want to do that, it's a sport, go for it. But if you want to create a sustainable approach to investing. Right. This is what I do. I have my retirement portfolio. A lot of us may have access to one through work called a 401k or a 403b. If you don't have that outside of your employer, there may be. You can access an individual retirement account, an ira. The idea is that your automatically again contributing to this portfolio. These days the portfolio is designed for you. Back in, when I was starting, I had to pick it myself. And that was overwhelming. Like, how do I know what's going to perform well?
- [31:29]
A
But now, you know, I did that blindly. I was like, yeah, yes, that's good.
- [31:34]
B
Sure, sounds good.
- [31:35]
A
I had no idea. I still don't know a guy at.
- [31:37]
B
Work, what are you buying? And you know, at least we were in the. We were doing something, of course, but now we have data to support that. You don't have to get so much in the weeds of it that when you Sign up for an account at any of these online brokerages. The first thing they do is they ask you a series of questions which will help them create a portfolio for you that is mixed with stocks and bonds and it's adjusted for your risk. Like, you can actually tell them, I'm really not risky, so please be careful with my portfolio. And all you have to do at that point is contribute and be committed to that contribution. And don't touch the money. Right. Just, I know the market's gonna be up, down, left, right. It's not a bug, it's a feature of the stock market. When things are volatile, just ride the wave.
- [32:29]
A
Has AI made things so much easier or should we be afraid of that? When it comes to financial.
- [32:35]
B
So AI has been integrated into our financial lives longer than we know. When we talk about these automated platforms or robo Advis, essentially, those modules are using machine learning and data to basically figure out how to develop soundproof portfolios for us. And I do think that AI can be great to a point when we have questions about our money, asking ChatGPT, what's the best credit card? I think for things that are technical, the definitions are out there, but not to replace ever. Working with a certified financial planner, a human who can also understand what's going on. Because as you said at the very beginning, Tamsin, money touches everything. It's so deeply ingrained and personal that the computers and the robots only to a certain extent can help us.
- [33:28]
A
I agree with that, though. I do like it. I do like to pay attention to, like, recurring. You know, I like to have those systems because I think nowadays it's so hard. You're on Instagram, you're anywhere you can. You can make a thousand transactions and not even really realize it. Like, what hits your account now between Netflix and Hulu and Disney and your phone. And then you're like, oh, I need this little thing from Amazon. I gotta have it right now. And you don't realize what you're doing. I mean, we never had access like that before. You know how to get in the car, go to the store, walk to the store, Whatever you're doing to make a purchase like that, it's a slippery slope.
- [34:04]
B
It is. And I joke. Cause we're like, I got rid of cable, but now I have like 20 subscriptions with the Hulu and the Netflix and this and that. It's like, I'm paying more for media than I've ever. You know how sometimes you just want to purge your closet?
- [34:20]
A
Yes.
- [34:21]
B
Like, I'm right There I'm in this moment now. I'm just like, I want to go through everything I own and start over. I think the same should be true with our finances. I think once a year, just really taking inventory of everything you're spending on because a lot of it happens at 11pm I noticed that, you know, it's like, I know, wait. I wake up in the morning and an Amazon delivery comes and I'm like, did I? What happened?
- [34:43]
A
A lot of women listening are entrepreneurs too. And I want to address that because I think it can be a little bit harder to think about savings because you're not having to sign up for a 401k, you're not having to automate things, you're not getting a paycheck. You'll probably get your paycheck automatically. But what should you do in that case? Are there some habits you should put into place to save?
- [35:02]
B
Well, can I just start with an incredible sort of reflection on entrepreneurship that I came across recently? I interviewed this serial entrepreneur billionaire and, and I think I asked him something like, why are entrepreneurs so risk? Okay. And he was like, let me get something straight with you. Entrepreneurs hate risk. Actually, like, we're not really, we're not these like, risk excited people. What differentiates us is that we manage for risk. We know risk is gonna be part of the road and the best entrepreneurs plan for it. They don't just, you know, cross their fingers and dive into the deep end. They go in with a plan they thought about plan A, B, C, D, E, F, G. And those are the ones who succeed. And it doesn't take three days, it takes sometimes 30 years. But they finish strong. And we don't hear about those stories because they're not sexy.
- [35:59]
A
Right.
- [35:59]
B
The news, you know, we cover things that are outliers.
- [36:02]
A
Yes, of course.
- [36:03]
B
When an entrepreneur defies risk and gets lucky, we're like, oh my gosh, entrepreneur of the year. That is not how it gets normally done. And that's not the advice. So for women entrepreneurs, if you are uncomfortable with risk, that's okay. The key is to sort of create a worst case scenario for your business, plan for that risk happening, but still do the thing.
- [36:31]
A
Exactly. Not do the thing. And I think that's important.
- [36:34]
B
And so with that comes an understanding that this business can only succeed if I am financially solvent as well. That this business, although we love it and we want to give it our all, it is nothing if I can't pay my bills, if I don't have savings, if I'm. Let's say in a partnership, and I'm the entrepreneur in the family, and my partner gets laid off. Well, now what? Right that we have to again, assume that sometimes things will not go our way. In fact, a lot of the times they won't go our way. So how are we going to sort of create these safeguards for ourselves? So, again, having savings. And even more important for entrepreneurs to have a longer Runway for savings as opposed to somebody who has a 9 to 5. So we always say, you know, 9 months to 12 months of your expenses. I would never recommend starting a business before you have some savings. So, you know, working in your 9 to 5 while starting your business is how most successful entrepreneurs start.
- [37:41]
A
It's what I had to do. I mean, people are like, what took so long for you to do this? And I was like, what do you mean?
- [37:47]
B
I've been doing it for a while. Right, right.
- [37:49]
A
Yes, there's no question.
- [37:49]
B
But you've been strategic.
- [37:51]
A
Strategic about paying attention to what was gonna be needed the day that I was not getting that check, you know, every two weeks or whatever it was.
- [37:58]
B
And pay yourself again. Maybe it's not a salary that you're claiming, but that you are taking part of that earnings and putting it somewhere that the business can't touch. This is for yourself. You can invest in retirement as an entrepreneur. There are individual retirement accounts. Automate that. Again, maybe this isn't year one that you're doing this, but have it in mind that down the road, you want to have these bases covered.
- [38:24]
A
Are there tools or platforms that you particularly like or trust when it comes to financials?
- [38:30]
B
So I'm big on transparency. So for couples, and even for individuals who just want to have a handle on where everything is, again, because we have so many different accounts, there are tools, and one that I use, it's free. It's called Empower. It used to be called personal capital, and now it's called Empower. And they do have, like, financial advisors and retirement accounts, but I just go for their free service, which is seriously. It's like my husband and I both. We pull. We tie our accounts to it, so we connect our accounts to it. So I just go in and I just want to see where we are at the top. It has our net worth tally, so it's fun. You can kind of like put in your home equity and your car loan or whatever.
- [39:14]
A
Keep moving it up, Keep moving up.
- [39:16]
B
And also because it's great for couples who don't like to talk about money, but also know it's important to Stay on top of their finances together and have that transparency. So I can see how he's spending, he can see how I'm spending, we can see how we're both spending, all on this one dashboard.
- [39:34]
A
Do you feel like women nowadays are getting more comfortable with the conversations about money?
- [39:38]
B
It's hard to know. I think I have to believe that the answer to that is yes. Just based on where I started in my career, to where we are now. I think we have many more avenues to have these conversations. They're not just happening behind closed doors. It's online, it's on social media, it's on YouTube, it's on the podcast. So I'm very grateful for that. But at the same time, what I see happening, and I don't know if this is, again, a new thing or again, because of the proliferation of media, we see it more, but there is still a very stubborn sort of sub community of women who refuse, Refuse to believe that money can and should be something that they need to care about.
- [40:21]
A
So what do they think?
- [40:22]
B
They think it should be the men in their lives who provide for them financially, because that is what. But that is their role as men and as women. Our role is to be the supporters, the caregivers, the nurturers. It's a very antiquated. It's how probably our ancestors thought about it. But living in 2025, I think that's a very dangerous way to live, quite frankly. Call it what you want, I'm gonna call it dangerous.
- [40:53]
A
I get it, though. But, you know, it is for a number of different reasons, but I think one in particular, I just wonder what that does to your confidence, your feeling about what? You know, your feeling of like, okay, I've got this, I'm safe. Like, for me, money was safety or freedom. Right. It was one of those two things. And I think of that safety and because I know when it was totally taken away and when I didn't, you know, didn't. And I was panicked constantly, like, how am I paying my rent? I mean, New York City is not a fun place to be, you know, 100,000 minus, minus, minus, plus 20% interest rates on five different cards. You're moving around all the time. Like, I've done empty apartments, sold furniture, sold jewelry, sold anything I could sell, you know, So I. So I feel like that confidence and that safety is very difficult for me to imagine, you know, now.
- [41:46]
B
I mean, I just want to tell a trad wife, imagine a world where you can and be the mom you want to be, be the Wife you want to be and be the financial badass that you need to be because you live in a world that is not going to wait for you to figure things out. Right. Like, again, nobody's going to care more than your financial life than you. And it's not because our partners and our families don't love us. It's just that life happens and we need to be the stewards of our own money. And if you believe that options are important, that freedom is important, if you are the kind of person who wants to have a clear exit strategy when life gets difficult, you know, that comes with a price.
- [42:37]
A
And we're not meaning in a selfish way. We're saying it could be anything. There could be a health issue. There could be anything that causes those things. Anything that causes those things.
- [42:44]
B
Right. The systems are not designed to. To support us all the time. Yeah.
- [42:48]
A
There's not a safety net there.
- [42:49]
B
There's no safety net.
- [42:50]
A
Do you have some tips for the world that we live in where we are scrolling and shopping and buying and scrolling and shopping and buying or just spending? Because you're trying to. I always think of the millionaire Next Door, the book, you know, like a paragraph in there that was basically like, that person goes to the store on the weekends and they're buying like potholders and candles and anything they can do to pass the time. And then the millionaire next door isn't doing any of that. They're not shopping for knickknacks or not doing any of that stuff. They've got the old car and they're the ones that. They've got the money.
- [43:19]
B
I wasn't even prepared to say this, but I think. Because I know for me, when I fall into these traps of spending money that I don't need to be spending on things that I don't need, it's cause I'm bored.
- [43:32]
A
I agree.
- [43:33]
B
Or I'm tired. So fill your schedule with experiences.
- [43:39]
A
Right.
- [43:40]
B
Even if it's like, I'm gonna take a nap or I'm gonna go for a walk or I'm gonna call my friends. Because I think we are not at the expense of not doing these hobbies and activities and engagements with ourselves and others. We're on our phones and the phones know how to get to us. We can't. We're defenseless against our phones. But, you know, outside of that, I think it's also these boundaries that we have to consciously create in our lives. Whether that's putting your phone not within hand's reach when you go to bed, going to bed earlier, waking up earlier, detaching your credit cards from a lot of these car news. I know. You just gasped. You just gasped, Tamsen. I know.
- [44:24]
A
I'm shocked.
- [44:25]
B
I mean, it's annoying when you don't have it and you have to go get your wallet out and get your credit card out. But you know what happens between going into the kitchen to get your wallet to make the purchase because your credit card wasn't automatically filled into the account, you probably were like, I, I don't need this. You know, you give yourself time.
- [44:45]
A
So what are some of those tips? Detach your credit card. That's a really smart one.
- [44:48]
B
It can be difficult to do.
- [44:50]
A
Very difficult.
- [44:51]
B
Keep your phone out of reach at night. Arianna Huffington would recommend this. Cause you know, she was big on sleep and she was big on sleep. So her advice was keep your phone in the bathroom while you're in your bed. But it's also a great financial tip because you're not reaching for the phone to buy stuff.
- [45:05]
A
She used to have a little bed with Thrive Global that you would tuck your phone into at night. It was actually a charger and you would tuck your phone into the bed and move it into another room. Isn't that funny?
- [45:14]
B
It's great. It's great advice. And then I think if you are still shopping and you get leave it in your cart for at least 12 to 24 hours. Giving ourselves again some time and space between a purchase. Because shopping releases dopamine. That is a shopper's high. We talk about. It's a real thing.
- [45:38]
A
This show is sponsored by eight Sleep. Let's talk about hot flashes. Can we? And how I finally got my nights back. Before I found eight Sleep, I was waking up, I don't know, three or four times a night, drenched in sweat, exhausted the next day and completely drained by noon. Menopause was wrecking my sleep. Then I started using the Pod 5. I'm telling you, it changed everything. The Pod cools my side of the bed without touching Iris, my husband, and it actually cools before a hot flash wakes me up. I even use hot flash mode some nights. When I feel it coming on, I just tap the bed and the pod instantly kicks into cooling mode. It's wild. Here's the thing. This isn't a gimmick. It's clinically shown to reduce hot flashes by over 50%. I have tried everything. Supplements, cooling fans, even ice packs. This really works. I sleep through the night and I wake up rested. If you're going through menopause, or just struggling with night sweats. You have to try this. This. You don't need to just deal with hot flashes. This is what finally worked for me. Head over to 8sleep.com tamsen and use code TAMSIN to get $350 off your Pod 5 Ultra. The best part is that you still get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it. But I'm confident you will love it. Trust me, your body will thank you for this investment in better sleep shipping to many countries worldwide. See details@8sleep.com.
- [46:59]
B
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
- [47:02]
A
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B
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A
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A
Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations should we be thinking of retirement right now? Because I don't even know what retirement is anymore and I feel like a lot of people are going to work right through these years, right? But should we be thinking of that time where maybe things are slower or maybe you want to change what you're doing, or maybe you want to start a new business and you're going to need some extra money to do that?
- [47:49]
B
I would say think about how you want to live your chapter in life that we typically call retirement. Some people don't like the word, but whatever you're doing, it will cost. Yes, retirement doesn't mean you can stop doing anything with your money or having a financial mindset. You still need to be careful about your money in retirement. And I think a lot of us, as we grow older, we're learning more and more about the importance of relationships and doing what we love and second acts and third acts and how that just reinvigorates us. And I think a lot of us are looking forward to retirement as an opportunity. Not to necessarily keep making as much money as we are now, but calling our own shots more and having more freedom with our work and our work choices. But definitely think about retirement in terms of the costs because unfortunately there are just some stubborn costs in retirement, whether you're looking at health care, your tax bill and saving for retirement I think is so, so important because I have learned about people who live just on Social Security and some are very creative and they make it work, but it's extremely difficult.
- [49:04]
A
So what do you do right now to prepare for that time?
- [49:07]
B
A lot of people think, oh, I'm in my 40s or in my 50s. It's too late. I said, no, it's not too late. It's not too late. You will not regret arriving at 65, 70 with even some money, whatever money it is. So commit today to not just saving, but investing that money again in a diversified portfolio. Let the robots figure it out for you. I have a whole program on this on my site, but it is not rocket science. You can do this. Commit to. Look, if your company offers you a 401k, try to at least do 10% of your income. If you're playing some catch up because you're in your 50s, increase your investment rate to 15 or 20%.
- [49:49]
A
What should your investment rate be for most of your life?
- [49:52]
B
So if you're starting young, in your 20s, and you're going to consistently be investing about 10 to 15% of your salary, every year is excellent. Not every year you're going to hit that, but try. If your company offers you a match where they say, for every dollar you invest, we'll give you a dollar up to say 5% of your income, then contribute 5% of your income to earn that other five and now you've got 10.
- [50:16]
A
And if you're an entrepreneur, pay attention to what you can write off, correct?
- [50:20]
B
Oh, 100%. Someone should write a book, like everything's write offable or something.
- [50:23]
A
I know, you know what, my husband, every time I say that, I'm like, it's a write off. And he goes, everything is not a write off, Tamsen. So I've had to, you know, really pay attention.
- [50:30]
B
It's true, it's true. But it's true too, that as entrepreneurs we have a lot of tax advantages, tax benefits, even for startups. I'm starting up a company right now, local media, and I'm. It's been a while since I've started a company, but there are so many startup deductions that can help you save even like the little bit of money you're making as a startup to pay very little tax on that.
- [50:53]
A
What do you think a healthy relationship with money looks like?
- [50:56]
B
I used to ask folks on my podcast in the beginning of the show. It's been 10 years now. I would say. How would you describe your relationship with money and. Oh my God. Toxic, Healthy. Avoiding, avoidance. Non committal, non committal. I think it would be relaxed.
- [51:15]
A
Oh, I like that.
- [51:16]
B
Okay. I want to be. I want to be a relaxed woman. Me too. People like me too. Where are you at now in your career and your profession, Farnoosh? I'm just trying to be a Relaxed woman. And with that comes knowing that my money is working for me and I'm not chasing the dollars.
- [51:32]
A
And that's come from setting things up, automating things, paying attention, not having. Avoidance. Right?
- [51:39]
B
Yeah. I mean, my best advice to anyone who's listening, who's like in their 20s or 30s, is if you need any excuse to invest, let me tell you, and this is, you know, you're the menopause expert. Like, I'm going through perimenopause. I'm in midlife, and I don't want to work as fast and as hard as I was in my 20s. And it doesn't mean I'm not ambitious. It just means I'm smarter. That's a different chapter.
- [52:03]
A
Smarter than what we were doing. Smarter.
- [52:05]
B
I want to work smarter.
- [52:06]
A
There's more resources too for it, but.
- [52:08]
B
With that requires some more breathing room to be more evaluative about things that I'm going to do or not going to do. Saying no more. And so obviously that too means that maybe I'm not making. It's not a fire hose of income. Like maybe in my 30s when I was doing 18 different side hustles. So when I invested money in my 30s outside of retirement, I was like, I just. I don't know what this is going to be for Farnoosh, but someday I won't regret having invested a little bit more outside of retirement just for the future TBD. And that money has compounded now in my 40s, has given me more. I can rest better at night knowing that I don't have to wake up in the morning. And like I did in my 30s, with two babies and a mortgage, living in New York City. Where's the next paycheck? How am I gonna make the next paycheck?
- [52:57]
A
I'm with you.
- [52:58]
B
And I still think about money. I still am ambitious to make and grow. But that pace, which is just not me anymore, has been supported by having this financial cushion that started in my 30s.
- [53:14]
A
We started this talking about how women always apologize for wanting more by not actually talking about it and not actually saying anything. What is a mindset shift that will help women stop apologizing for wanting more?
- [53:25]
B
If you care about your freedoms, I mean, who doesn't? Do you want options? Of course. Do you want.
- [53:33]
A
Of course.
- [53:35]
B
You must then care about your money. It's not something that you need permission. It's right there for the grabbing. And it's a choice. Are you gonna make that choice? And I know it can be scary, but as I write in My book, When we feel the fear at these really tough crossroads in life, when we're talking about money and work and relationships, when fear shows up, it is a voice that is there to guide you. It's saying, hey, this matters.
- [54:03]
A
Wake up.
- [54:04]
B
Hello. Let's pay attention. It's not an excuse to run away or hide. It's actually saying, go do the thing. But you gotta keep your eyes and ears open. You gotta get a plan together. You gotta get some more questions answered. So go fill those holes and then go do the thing and you will be successful.
- [54:23]
A
I really would like to do a Q and A with you, with our listeners too, because I think that there's a lot of specific questions people will want to get into and I know you have the answers and you've got such a sound voice. So I so appreciate it. Thank you. I'll be back.
- [54:35]
B
Thank you so much.
- [54:36]
A
Oh, thank you so much. I want to challenge you to take one thing Farnoosh suggested in this episode and put it into action today, even if it's super small. And if you did learn anything from this episode, as Farnoosh said, we want to hear from you. Reviews, comments, anything. It really helps the podcast reach more and more people who need these conversations. Thank you so much for listening to the Tamsen Cho podcast and I'll see you in the next episode. Hey everybody, I want you to know today's episode was sponsored by Midi Health. If you're ready to feel your best and write that second act script, visit joinmitty.com today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual visit. That's joinmitty.com MIDI the care that women deserve.