Tamsen Thompson (2:23)

Welcome back to the Tamsen show, everybody. So if you've Been anywhere near the Internet lately or listening to this podcast,

Tamsen Thompson (2:28)

you have heard the message loud and clear. Women need to build muscle.

Tamsen Thompson (2:31)

We know it affects metabolism, hormones, bone health, and how we age.

Tamsen Thompson (2:35)

But here's the gap no one is really filling.

Tamsen Thompson (2:37)

How do you actually do it? I have spent years in the gym, taking classes, working with personal trainers.

Tamsen Thompson (2:43)

But sometimes I walk in alone and

Tamsen Thompson (2:45)

I'm like, where do I even start with all this? Recently I found out I lost five pounds of muscle and I completely panicked.

Tamsen Thompson (2:52)

I know we all have limited time, limited energy, and our body's been through a lot. So today's conversation's gonna be a guide for us to gain muscle without burning ourselves out.

Tamsen Thompson (3:01)

My guest is Dr. Shannon Richie, Dr. Of physical therapy, strength training expert, and

Tamsen Thompson (3:06)

the founder of Evolo Fitness. Her entire philosophy is built around one idea. Exercise should work for your body, not break it down.

Tamsen Thompson (3:14)

Today she's gonna walk us through how to create a program that f life, helps you train with intention and helps you build your workouts so you can

Tamsen Thompson (3:22)

finally move the needle.

Tamsen Thompson (3:23)

If you're new to the gym, coming back after a break, or just ready

Tamsen Thompson (3:26)

for a smarter goal, this conversation is for you.

Tamsen Thompson (3:31)

Dr. Santa Ricci. Welcome to the Tamsen Show.

Dr. Shannon Richie (3:33)

I am so excited to talk about all this.

Tamsen Thompson (3:35)

I'm so excited to not be confused anymore.

Dr. Shannon Richie (3:37)

That is really my mission for women because we get so much information thrown at us and honestly, most of it is garbage. And so we think we need to do all the things when that's not true. We just need to do the right things in the right amounts.

Tamsen Thompson (3:49)

Well, and I think also it causes. It causes me anyway to kind of give up if I have too much on my self care list. I don't even know where to begin. So I'm like, ugh, I'm not doing anything today. It doesn't make any sense.

Dr. Shannon Richie (3:59)

Yes. And we know that if we want a change in our life, the habits create that change. Everybody knows that consistent habits create change. And when the barrier to complete that habit feels too steep and too hard, we might do it for a short period of time and then we give up. This is where a lot of us end up. In February or March after our New Year's resolutions just aren't working because. Because we've over committed to something that feels way too hard for our body to do indefinitely. And willpower can only get us so far. Because once your willpower runs out, then you're left with, I've just got to power my way through this. And you eventually burn out. And Give up. So it's my goal to help people really understand how it doesn't need to be that way. And that when you understand how your body changes and it's a careful balance between stimulus and recovery, and when you understand those elements, it's so much easier to stay consistent because it doesn't feel like it's going to burn you out.

Tamsen Thompson (4:54)

Well, and I think that's a, that's the whole thing. I mean, when you burn out, that's it. And then to try to rev back up again. So let me ask you this. From your mindset and everything you're seeing right now, do you think that our perspective or women's perspective towards strength training has changed in recent years?

Dr. Shannon Richie (5:08)

I think so. I really love to see that more women are lifting weights and talking about building muscle. However, anytime there's like a swing in one way, there's a swing in equal and opposite magnitude in the other way. So especially with like GLP1s and all of that, like in skinny talk, being as thin as possible is also really quote unquote in right now. And that shocks me. Yeah.

Tamsen Thompson (5:35)

Because that's not what it was three years ago. Two. Two years ago.

Dr. Shannon Richie (5:39)

It is crazy how quickly that has caught on and changed and it really concerns me. And we can talk about the dangers of that more if we want and the risks of not prioritizing your muscle. But I really do think that for the most part, a lot of women are learning, especially women in their 40s beyond are learning the importance of muscle. And we're not just expecting our workouts to get us as small as possible.

Tamsen Thompson (6:04)

I sure hope so, because I. I have learned how important muscle is just through researching, researching the documentaries. I do the book and, and I had no idea, Like, I knew it was important to, to lift, but I actually, I actually enjoyed lifting because I hated cardio so much. But I came from the time period where all the women were in the cardio area or taking classes and all the guys were in the gym, like throwing weights around.

Dr. Shannon Richie (6:27)

Yes.

Tamsen Thompson (6:28)

So I' tons more women in the weight room, which I love. I went in the other day to the gym and I'm like, there's all women in here and there's one guy that's like, really great to see.

Dr. Shannon Richie (6:35)

So cool.

Tamsen Thompson (6:36)

It's so cool. So why is muscle so important as we age? Can you simplify that and break it down for us?

Dr. Shannon Richie (6:42)

Absolutely. So when we think about the esthetic benefits of muscle, that's that kind of quote unquote toned look. And it's funny because the word toned or toning, you actually won't find it in academic literature. It is made up by the fitness industry. Really? Yes.

Tamsen Thompson (6:57)

Why is that?

Tamsen Thompson (6:58)

Because it's a gentler, prettier word.

Dr. Shannon Richie (6:59)

It's a prettier. It's a word to market certain workouts for women because women were historically afraid to get muscular and look masculine. So if we look toned, then it's more approachable, Then they're more likely to buy that workout. So magazines latched onto it, and now it's just something that we all accept. And when we think about the word toned, what that really means is body recomposition. So building muscle while you're losing fat or losing fat and being able to see the existing muscle underneath. So when we're thinking about body recomposition or that quote unquote, toned aesthetic, muscle is a big piece of that. So there's that side of muscle, and then there's the more important, debatably benefit of muscle, which is the internal machinery that it creates. The more muscle you have, the better your insulin sensitivity. And this is important because insulin touches every single cell in our body and affects every single cell in our body. So when we are more insulin sensitive, every single system in our body functions better. Down to your digestion, your energy, your cellular cleanup, your immunity, your mental processing. All of these things function better when we are more insulin sensitive. And muscle is a big piece of that.

Tamsen Thompson (8:14)

Well, how is muscle actually built? Because I think that sometimes we get that wrong. Can you explain how muscle is actually built?

Dr. Shannon Richie (8:20)

So muscle is built, I think about four primary things.

Tamsen Thompson (8:23)

Okay.

Dr. Shannon Richie (8:24)

And we can go into detail as much as you want, or we can just touch on them high level and

Tamsen Thompson (8:28)

then let's touch on them and then

Dr. Shannon Richie (8:29)

touch on them high level. So these are the four things that are important. And I do think that when women or. Or men or anyone focuses on these four things and kind of blocks out all the other things, you will see your body change. You will see muscle development. So it's reps, R, E, P, S. Easy to remember. So each letter stands for a different component of building muscle. The R is repetitions. So getting close to failure in 30 repetitions or less, you can do anywhere from about four repetitions all the way up to six repetitions. As long as your last coup. Couple reps are to failure or near failure.

Tamsen Thompson (9:07)

And failure means your arm is kind of shaky, you can. You say you can't do anymore?

Dr. Shannon Richie (9:11)

Yes.

Tamsen Thompson (9:12)

Is that what that is?

Dr. Shannon Richie (9:12)

Failure means you physically cannot complete the rep. Okay. It's not burning, it's not shaking, because you can continue going through burn and shake. Yeah, it's hard. It doesn't feel comfortable. But that's not true failure. And that's why a lot of people do Pilates, and they confuse the fatigue and the shaking and the burning and the quaking with true failure.

Tamsen Thompson (9:30)

True Pilates getting a bad rap these days.

Dr. Shannon Richie (9:32)

Pilates is polarizing, I would say.

Tamsen Thompson (9:35)

What do you mean?

Tamsen Thompson (9:36)

Like, either you love it or hate it.

Dr. Shannon Richie (9:38)

I think there's so many different facets of this, because, like, the true Pilates people will say, mainstream workouts that are marketing themselves as Pilates aren't really Pilates. It's just you're lifting lightweights and you're doing combination moves and sweating and whatever. So there's that. And I'm not here to argue what is Pilates and what's not Pilates, but I will say that if you are doing high rep workouts, whether that be called Pilates or whether that be called bar or any other type of sculpting, whatever, toning workouts, if the reps are too, too high, even if you are burning and shaking and quaking, but you're not reaching mechanical muscle failure, it's not a very effective or potent stimulus for muscle growth.

Tamsen Thompson (10:17)

Got it.

Dr. Shannon Richie (10:18)

So how to know the difference between if you are burning and your muscles are fatigued, but you're not at true failure is what I call the rest test. So this is a really valuable tool that anyone can know whether or not you have reached muscular failure in under 30 reps after your final rep. Let's say you're doing 15 reps of a bicep curl. Just to keep it really simple, let's say you do 15 reps. Your final rep is, like, really slow, really hard. You're like, I cannot physically do another rep. Like, I'm trying, and I can't do it. Okay, great. We're at failure or we're near failure. Set the weights down, shake it off for about five seconds, pick up the weights, and try to do more reps. If you could do three or more reps, you were just fatigued. You were not at true failure.

Tamsen Thompson (11:01)

Oh, that's a great test.

Dr. Shannon Richie (11:02)

Because if you were at true failure, your muscles need longer to recover. Your muscles need at least a minute to recover before they can physically do more reps.

Tamsen Thompson (11:11)

So you would not have been able to even get those weights moving at all.

Dr. Shannon Richie (11:14)

No. And studies show you don't have to get all the way to failure. You just have to get close. So you have to get one to three reps shy.

Tamsen Thompson (11:20)

Okay, so what's the E in reps?

Dr. Shannon Richie (11:21)

So E is exercise selection. And this is another thing that I think people get wrong. Choose really simple exercises that target one muscle group at a time. We try to do too much in one single exercise. I'm working my glutes and my shoulders and my abs all at the same time. And the problem with that is if we go back to the R, you're not actually getting back. You're not actually getting to muscular failure in any of those muscle groups because you're going to be stopped by the weakest link. You're stopped by maybe your shoulder, or you're stopped by your abs, or you're stopped because you're shaking and quaking. You're not stopped by true muscular failure. So exercise selection is the E, P is protein. So I'm sure you've had many guests talk about.

Tamsen Thompson (11:58)

We talk a lot about protein here, but I feel like we can't talk about it enough because we didn't talk about it for a long time. We talked about calories and we talked about fat and we talked about all sorts of other things. And the protein conversation, you know, there's a lot of it going on, but I think it's always important.

Dr. Shannon Richie (12:12)

It's so funny because every macronutrient has, like, had its moment.

Tamsen Thompson (12:15)

It has. Oh, please. Yeah, I've lived through all of them. Isn't it so pretty? Right now we're going into fiber. Fiber, right?

Dr. Shannon Richie (12:21)

Fiber's next. Fiber's next. But protein is important because you have the stimulus in your workout, but then you need the building blocks to build the tissue back. So registered Dietitians typically recommend 0.75 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. And that can be what's called ideal body weight. So let's say you just have your goal body weight and you can go based on that instead of your current weight. And then that's the P and S is structure. Again, this is something that people get wrong all the time. We throw spaghetti at the wall and we're surprised when our body isn't changing. Your body needs specific signals continuously and enough recovery in order to change and adapt. So I think work each muscle group in your body so your quads, your glutes, your shoulders, your chest, your back, one to two times per week on non consecutive days. Make sure that you're giving muscle groups 48 hours of recover recovery in between. What we do is we work our glutes and Then we work on Monday and then we work em again on Tuesday and then again on Wednesday. And that doesn't create adaptation or change in your body. The stimulus is from your workouts is what triggers the cascade of effects. It's the light switch that turns things on. But recovery is the repair process and recovery is where we actually build muscle.

Tamsen Thompson (13:33)

Give me a week.

Tamsen Thompson (13:34)

That would be, that makes sense. So you've got Monday, you're gonna work back and shoulders. Tuesday, you know, can you give me that kind of week so people can hear?

Dr. Shannon Richie (13:43)

So I recommend lifting three, four or five times per week. And you can divide up the muscle work however you want. If you're doing three workouts, you would do three full body workouts. Now you don't have to work every single muscle group in each workout. So let's say Monday you've got glutes, quads, chest, back, shoulders. And then you take a recovery day on Tuesday. And then Wednesday maybe you're hitting abs, glutes again, shoulders, quads, whatever, another recovery day. And then Friday you're hitting all the muscle groups that you hadn't worked and then maybe one or two other ones so that you're getting for the most part, you're hitting each muscle group at least once and many of them twice.

Tamsen Thompson (14:22)

And on those days off, are you doing cardio, walking, just resting?

Dr. Shannon Richie (14:26)

Yes, you can. I thought you were gonna say like

Tamsen Thompson (14:29)

completely watch Netflix on those days, Tamsa,

Dr. Shannon Richie (14:31)

wouldn't that be nice? Yeah. And sometimes that's exactly what your body needs. Like your body will sometimes beg for a recovery day. And I recommend listening like you don't need to squeeze in extra cardio. Like sometimes recovering is your best, most productive tool in certain moments. But I like to say stay active overall every day of the week. I recommend 150 minutes of light to moderate intensity cardio per week in addition to your strength training routine. Okay, now that sounds like a lot. And those are your days off lifting, where you can get in your walking or your jogging or whatever form of cardio you enjoy. So you can do that on your days off. Or what I do is I just walk and I carry my, my baby, my son Jack. So it's, my heart rate is up and we are in a hilly neighborhood. So I am my light to moderate intensity cardio mainly through my walks each

Tamsen Thompson (15:18)

day and having, having some extra, extra weight to that. Are there non negotiables that every woman should be doing? Especially as we age, building muscle is key.

Dr. Shannon Richie (15:30)

We are losing muscle each decade after the age of 30, it peaks around 30. And then unless we are intentionally trying to build it, we're losing it 5 to 8% per year after the age of 30. And. And this might seem like something you can worry about later, but if we extrapolate that out, let's say from 30 to 40, you're losing 5% of your muscle mass over that decade. That could be, you know, a quarter of a pound per year. Might not even notice that. Like, that is. Can get really sneaky. It's really a little amount. And then all of a sudden, you're 40 years old and you're like, wait a second. My body looks completely different than it did when I was 30. But I haven't changed anything. I'm eating the same, I'm exercising the same. And what we see from the literature is that it's not necessarily chronological age that is causing a decrease in metabolism or causing us to feel different. It's that we are losing mass as we age. We are losing muscle mass, lean mass. So if we can maintain the same amount of lean mass that we could when we were at our peak in our 20s and 30s, your metabolism is so much better, you feel better, your insulin sensitivity is better. So I really do see muscle as. This is something that we all need to be prioritizing. It's never too late, but it's also never too early.

Tamsen Thompson (16:44)

Well, I love you saying that, because I think we need to talk about both those. We say a lot. It's never too late, but it's never too early. In a lot of these cases, when we're talking about women coming into perimenopause or coming out of pregnancies, these are. All those years kind of go together. They really do. They kind of blur.

Dr. Shannon Richie (17:00)

They do.

Tamsen Thompson (17:01)

How does muscle change our body as we go forward and we start building more muscle? Because I love that you brought up the word tone, because it is a very sanitized, pretty safe, you know, the gyms where women are like, you know, it's got the pretty, pretty workout and

Tamsen Thompson (17:16)

the leg warmers, but we want to build muscle now.

Tamsen Thompson (17:20)

We don't want to just be toned.

Dr. Shannon Richie (17:21)

Right. And it's ironic because the workouts that tone you the most effectively are just the ones that build muscle. And when we're thinking about that toned aesthetic, we're also thinking about fat loss. And fat loss comes primarily through diet, through nutrition. I just heard something recently, and I loved this. Your workout should not be your diet. If we're thinking about your workout should

Tamsen Thompson (17:43)

not be your diet.

Dr. Shannon Richie (17:44)

Oh. Because if we're thinking about fat loss, we should not rely on our workouts to do that for us because we see from study after study that exercise alone doesn't cause much fat loss. It really does have to be from your diet. So I think if you are looking for an improved body composition so less body fat and more lean mass, it's a combination of proper diet, proper recovery and proper strength training.

Tamsen Thompson (18:10)

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Tamsen Thompson (19:52)

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Tamsen Thompson (20:48)

What does it do to your body? I know that there used to be this like, here's what 5 pounds of fat looks like and here you know what it looks like to the body. But when we look at someone's body and we're like, oh, wow, you know, you look like you've really whatever most people are like, oh, it looks like you've lost weight. And I guess that's like the new thing you're saying these days, but really it's that you've built muscle in your body and your arms might be looking different or your legs might be looking different. How does the muscle really change?

Dr. Shannon Richie (21:15)

So I personally have a history of body recomposition of, of over one year, it was 2022, I lost five pounds of fat and gained about eight pounds of muscle. Wow. And over that, it took me the whole year. And this is what I recommend. Like, don't give yourself a short time horizon, give yourself a long time horizon. But over that year, my pant size went down by two pant sizes. My weight increased, my weight went up.

Tamsen Thompson (21:40)

Up.

Dr. Shannon Richie (21:41)

Right, because I had overall more mass. But mass or fat mass takes up more volume than muscle mass. So you do end up being smaller if you are replacing muscle with fat.

Tamsen Thompson (21:55)

So you teach women how to gain five pounds of muscle. Really? Why did you decide on that amount and how long does that usually take?

Dr. Shannon Richie (22:02)

I love the goal of building five pounds of muscle because as we talked about, we're losing it as we age. And I like to think about gaining 5 pounds of muscle can reverse your biological age by 10 years. It can, because you are losing 5 to 8% per decade. So that could easily amount to 5 pounds of muscle over a decade. So if we can gain 5 more pounds of muscle than we have right now, you could have the lean mass that you had 10 years ago. And not only that, but like we said, it affects all of your cellular internal machinery, your insulin resistance, how you function, how feel your energy, all of that. So I like the goal of building five pounds of muscle And I recommend giving yourself the whole year for that. Now, it might not take you the whole year. It might take you, you know, six months. But I recommend the whole year because when you give yourself a long time horizon, you aren't in a rush, and you're not going to burn yourself out. You are learning. You're accumulating a ton of data over that year and that year of. Of figuring out what works for you, what works with your diet, how to train close to failure, the movement patterns. All of that will be the highest investment year of your life, because then you can carry all of those things forward into the rest of your life. I body recompositioned that one time in 2022. I have now done it two other times right after I had my first baby, and then I'm doing it again after my second baby, and it's taking me a lot less time than it did the first time. So first time was the investment. And, you know, life happens whether you're injured or whether you're like me and you have a baby, or you have to take some time off and maybe you lose some muscle or gain some fat or both. It's not all lost. You have the tools and you understand how to do it.

Tamsen Thompson (23:49)

I mean, I think that that's also a goal that feels like you can achieve it versus this goal that you don't know what the end goal is, but you're just going to keep working out until you feel happy with your body. Right. Which could be forever. What did that year look like? I'm curious what that looks like in terms of workouts. And then if you've got somebody that's. If there's a woman listening right now, that's like, I've never even lifted any weights or been to the gym. I don't even know what you guys are talking about with. With some of these exercises. Where do you start with that? Because I think that's really important that we talk to those women, too, because it can feel. It can feel intimidating.

Dr. Shannon Richie (24:22)

Really? Absolutely. I think a couple of things that I want to hit on there. So first with the intimidation thing, I think that we're hearing right now, you have to lift super heavy, and you have to get underneath a barbell, and you have to do all these things. And a lot of women are like, wait a second. I've been doing barre classes for three decades or cardio for three decades. I'm not ready to go get underneath a heavy barbell, like, hurt myself and hurt myself or whatever, and. Or I don't want to go into the gym. I don't know what to do. I'm afraid you can build muscle from home with dumbbell and you don't have to lift super heavy like we talked about. You can lift anywhere in that 4 to 30 rep range. And as long as your last rep is to failure or near failure, that will be just as effective as if you were underneath a heavy barbell. So I think so.

Tamsen Thompson (25:09)

Encouraging to hear.

Dr. Shannon Richie (25:10)

Yes.

Tamsen Thompson (25:11)

And when you're talking about lifting weights at home, what kind of weights are we talking about?

Dr. Shannon Richie (25:15)

I use anywhere from. I think my lowest weight right now is like 8 pounds and then my heaviest weight weight is 50 pounds.

Tamsen Thompson (25:22)

Okay.

Dr. Shannon Richie (25:23)

But I've worked up to that.

Tamsen Thompson (25:24)

I was gonna say, yeah, you're different, but yes, yes.

Tamsen Thompson (25:26)

Okay.

Tamsen Thompson (25:26)

All right. But that's encouraging.

Dr. Shannon Richie (25:28)

But I recommend just buying a weighted rack of 5 pounds to 25 pounds or 30 pounds and starting there. And you can build a lot of muscle with just that. And that can get you through that first year of body recomposition. Now, what's really cool is that you'll have to buy heavier weights as you get stronger. But it's almost like fun, like to go on Amazon. And I'm like, I'm ready for a heavier weight. Like, it's fun. It's like really exciting to do that. Yeah, exactly.

Tamsen Thompson (25:52)

I'm all grown up.

Dr. Shannon Richie (25:53)

The gym.

Tamsen Thompson (25:54)

A lot of women are dealing with belly fat right now, which there's not really weights that you can lift for that. Is that mostly attributed to diet or. I mean, I know you just can't do a hundred crunches a day and hope that goes away because I've already tried that game. What do you recommend?

Dr. Shannon Richie (26:10)

Yes. So as you said, you can't spot treat fat. And I think that this is an important clarification to make. If you feel something burning, people think that it's burning fat in that area, but that's just an accumulation of. Of metabolites of chemicals in the tissue that's causing an uncomfortable sensation. That is not fat melting off right there. So we think like, oh, my shoulders are burning like, or my triceps are burning. I'm like burning off my bat wings or like toning, sculpting up my arms. Fat loss happens systemically throughout your whole body, mainly due to diet. However, what we're seeing is that belly fat, there's two types of belly fat. There's the subcutaneous fat, which is kind of the fat that you can see and pinch, and then there's visceral Fat, which is the fat that you can't see and pinch, but it's surrounding the organs and may have a slight aesthetic component. Right. You might. Your, your midsection might be slightly bigger because of visceral fat. Typically, it's a combination of both. Typically, it's a combination of subcutaneous fat and visceral fat. Those two are mainly and mostly impacted by diet. So just a sustained, proper diet, but exercise can also improve how we metabolize fat. When you have more muscle mass, your fat storage goes down. And this is across your whole body, including in your belly. When we eat carbs or when we eat food, the carbs in our food are broken down into sugar. And that sugar travels throughout your bloodstream to serve different processes of your body. It keeps us moving, it keeps us heart, our heart beating, it keeps us breathing, it improves our brain, all of those things. And then anything left over that the body did not use is either stored in the muscle in the liver or stored as fat. We obviously can't increase the size of our liver, so that is capped out. We can increase the size of our muscle. When we have more muscle, sugar has more places to go and less of it is stored as fat. So that's one primary reason why building muscle can have an effect on your fat mass, and it's one of the reason why building muscle can help you maintain a body composition so much easier and feel like you can eat more.

Tamsen Thompson (28:21)

I think it's so encouraging in so many ways and gives you even more reason to be doing that.

Dr. Shannon Richie (28:26)

Yes, absolutely. It's. There's so many effects that muscle has on your body beyond just like giving you that sculpted look. It really is an investment that will affect you for years to come.

Tamsen Thompson (28:39)

Let's talk about cardio. Where do steps in cardio fit in when it comes to muscle gain?

Dr. Shannon Richie (28:45)

I don't necessarily think you need both steps and cardio because. Because if you are getting that 150 minutes of light to moderate intensity cardio that can kind of overlap with your steps, Right? So if you are, let's say you're spinning, you're not technically getting steps, but you are being active, and that's what we care most about. Um, now I do like to recommend steps just because a more active lifestyle is good for us. Studies consistently show that around 7,500 steps per day is associated with positive mortality rates, rates, and fitness levels. So 7,500 steps per day, I think, is a really good goal. If that's how you get your cardio, great, or if you're getting that on top of your cardio. That's great too. But for me, it's like I gotta combine both, like, it. I'm not gonna get the steps and my strength training and my cardio. So I just walk. And that's both my cardio and it's my steps.

Tamsen Thompson (29:37)

I like that. And I also think it's like kind of that check mark of success, you know, Like, I did my 75, so at least I, I did that and got that done. I'm actually happy that steps are kind of part of our conversation nowadays, so feel like that's something because I, I came from the school of like, walking as an exercise, and that was a, you know, a long time ago, but that's what everybody, you know, said. And I, I was like, I don't know. I feel like movement should count for something.

Dr. Shannon Richie (30:01)

Oh, it absolutely does. And it keeps your overall energy expenditure high.

Tamsen Thompson (30:05)

Yeah.

Dr. Shannon Richie (30:05)

And motion is lotion, I always say, like, motion is what, what is it? Being sedentary is the new smoking. Like, it's so bad for our bodies.

Tamsen Thompson (30:15)

I couldn't agree more with you.

Dr. Shannon Richie (30:16)

And so it's, it's not like it's going to be the magic pill to make you lose a bunch of fat and lose a bunch of weight, separate it from that. But it's, it's more for our overall health.

Tamsen Thompson (30:24)

Let's talk about what you do with your business and the type of people you see come to you and the type of results. Can you, can you walk me through that, what that looks like?

Dr. Shannon Richie (30:31)

Yes. So we typically see people who have tried everything. Maybe they're the group fitness addict and they go do class pass and they do all the different classes. Or maybe they have tried all the heavy weightlifting and they've gotten hurt and they want to see body composition changes. So they want to build muscle while they're losing fat. We educate them that fat loss is primarily diet, but we will help them build muscle. And the way we do that is by consistently loading their bodies close to failure, structuring the week. So they're working each muscle group one to two times per week on non consecutive days. And then giving women or people, we have men too, giving them autonomy over their exercise selection. And this is so important. We are all taught right now. It's so dogmatic. You got to squat, you got to do these dead hangs, you got to do farmer's carries. What matters is that we are stimulating muscle, whether that's you're doing a squat or you're doing a hip Thrust doesn't matter. Choose the exercises that feel good for you and that you enjoy, because that's twofold. Number one, you're more likely to stay consistent if your workouts feel better. And number two, you're more likely to take a muscle close to true failure. If you are limited by that muscle, you're not limited by, like, let me just get this over with. I'm bored. I hate this exercise. I've, oh, I've got 10 reps. I'm out. Even though your muscle got nowhere near failure, so it's more effective. So by doing all of these things, and we have short workouts, they're 35 minutes, which is really doable from home. By doing all of these things, you're able to stay consistent. You're able to see results, and that compounds. So we hear all the time, like, I've seen better results, and I feel like I'm working out less. I feel like I'm burning my body out less.

Tamsen Thompson (32:15)

Wow. And do you think also a lot of people are doing it from home, right?

Dr. Shannon Richie (32:18)

Yes.

Tamsen Thompson (32:18)

Do you think that's helpful? So people are not going to the gym, you know, 30 minutes here, 15 minutes here, or do you think that it's good either way? Because I think that some people love the gym. Like, I happen to love the gym, and I always feel like, am I working out enough if I'm home? But I have seen a lot of the workouts move into homes as well.

Dr. Shannon Richie (32:34)

I think it just totally depends on your life stage. Like, if going to the gym motivates you, do it. And if you have that extra time because you've got the commute, you know, forward and backwards, if you've got the extra time, do it. Sometimes if you're at the gym, you're worried about, like, what you look like, And I think that can sometimes, like, interfere with. With, you know, the exercises that you're doing and you're out of your body. You know what I mean? But if you're at home, you're like, I don't care what I look like. Like, I'm gonna do this weird exercise or whatever, and, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna grunt and take it close to failure and, like, make ugly faces, and that might be more effective for you. For me, I'm a mom. I have two kids under two. Home workouts have opened up my life so much. I can get it done while the kids are napping and I'm out. I don't have to commute to a gym. My husband does the Same thing. He does all of our workouts and he's built a ton of muscle. Same thing. It's just, just like we go into the. Our little home gym, do the workout and then you're done. So I think really either works GLP1s.

Tamsen Thompson (33:30)

Do you think people realize how extra important it is right now if. Because we, we, we actually sent something out on social media asking about it. A lot of people are on GLP1s right now, but also losing muscle. And are you seeing people double concerned about it or are you worried that the more people that are on GLP1s, they say, I don't need to work out now because I've lost the weight?

Dr. Shannon Richie (33:53)

I think we're seeing that big time and I think.

Tamsen Thompson (33:58)

So do we need to double down on this message of gaining muscle?

Dr. Shannon Richie (34:00)

I think we need to double down on it because when you are in GLP1s, I'm not anti GLP ones, by the way, but they allow you to be in a sustained calorie deficit, which will allow you to lose weight. However, if you are not properly stimulating your muscles, that weight loss will come from both fat and muscle. And what happens is when you are losing fat and muscle, you're losing body mass overall.

Tamsen Thompson (34:26)

Right.

Dr. Shannon Richie (34:27)

And not only that, but you are decreasing all of the things that we just talked about. You're decreasing your insulin sensitivity that will have an effect on your mood, your metabolism, your cellular functions, how you age, your longevity, all of those things. So muscle, muscle, it's not just a. I can take this drug and I can stop strength training. You have to strength train properly. And there's a big difference between just lifting weights and building muscle. Anyone can lift weights and any program can lift weights. But if you're doing all the wrong things, there's no point. Okay, and those are. That goes back to the reps thing that I was talking about with having all of the proper ingredients, even if you're picking up those weights.

Tamsen Thompson (35:09)

All right, so let's do this. I know that we're giving something away right inside the show. Is that right? So I'm excited about that. And we will have. Are we giving away.

Dr. Shannon Richie (35:17)

Actually, they can try Evolo for six weeks for free with. Would you typically do Tamsin as the code? Okay, great. Evol Fitness.com they can try it and it's. Yeah, just. You can always cancel. It's just a six weeks for free.

Tamsen Thompson (35:29)

So Evolo, six weeks for free to try this out. So somebody's walking into the gym and says, like, I don't Know where to begin?

Tamsen Thompson (35:35)

You know, maybe I'll do the app,

Tamsen Thompson (35:37)

but I don't know where to begin. I don't have an app. Where do you want them to start in terms of picking exercises for maybe upper body or for legs? Cause they're for shoulders.

Dr. Shannon Richie (35:44)

You're going to structure your whole week. You'll decide which muscle groups you're going to work on, what day, work each of them one to two times per week. So you've got your structure for the week. Let's say Monday, you're going in and you're working upper body. So maybe you've got chest, back, shoulders, biceps, triceps. Okay, so five muscle groups.

Tamsen Thompson (36:03)

So is that five exercises?

Dr. Shannon Richie (36:05)

It can be five exercises. Yep. So one exercise for each of those muscle groups repeated three, three times.

Tamsen Thompson (36:11)

So you're doing 15 rep. 15 exercise sets of exercise. 15 sets and then maybe 15 times each one.

Dr. Shannon Richie (36:19)

No, five muscle groups. One exercise for each muscle group. That's five different exercises. Okay. And do three rounds for each of those exercises. So that's 15 rounds total. Okay. So if you're doing chest presses, you do three sets of chest presses to fatigue.

Tamsen Thompson (36:34)

So maybe you start with 15 reps on the first set of them.

Dr. Shannon Richie (36:38)

You can do 15 reps. If your 15th rep is too easy, then either bump up the weight or do more reps next time.

Tamsen Thompson (36:45)

Okay. And that's how you figure out, you know, if you're doing enough when people are doing this. I. I think I like the idea of you can do 35 minutes of exercise. I used to do cardio first and then do the exercise. Nowadays, are you stretching and then just going right into your strength training versus, oh, I have to go sit on the bicycle or the StairMaster for 30 minutes first.

Dr. Shannon Richie (37:05)

You do want to warm up your body. And I don't recommend stretching prior to exercise because there's some literature to show that that can temp. Stretching can temporarily decrease strength, and that's not what we want.

Tamsen Thompson (37:15)

Wow.

Dr. Shannon Richie (37:15)

Increased performance. Okay, so if you are warming up your body for five minutes, you can do. We just do gentle mobility in our warmups.

Tamsen Thompson (37:23)

So what does that mean?

Dr. Shannon Richie (37:24)

So you're moving the joints that you plan to target. So let's say you're working your shoulder. So you're doing some shoulder circles, just four forward, four backwards. You're warming up the wrist because you're holding weights. You're warming up the elbows because you're extending and bending your elbows. So you're warming up all of the joints that you plan to load. And, um, so that's what we do. But you can.

Progressive Insurance Announcer (37:43)

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Dr. Shannon Richie (37:44)

Yeah.

Tamsen Thompson (37:44)

So much better than getting on a bike or something to me. Totally.

Dr. Shannon Richie (37:47)

And it doesn't have to take a lot of time. Like it can just be warm. Warm your body up, get your body moving, and then get right into your circuit. And one way that I love to make your workouts save time getting in all of this work in 35 minutes is to do what's called supersets. So traditionally, strength training is, let's say you're doing a chest press, you do the chest, chest press, and then you wait. And it's important to rest in between sets. You can't go all three. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. But typically people just sit on a bench, they wait or they stand up, they kind of move around, whatever. While you are waiting, you can go work a different muscle group. So you could go work your upper back. So do your chest presses and then go do your rows and then come back to chest presses and, and ping pong back and forth between those two exercises. And that can save you, you know, a lot of time. So that you're working the entire time you're in the gym, but you're just doing different muscle groups while the one that you just worked rested that.

Tamsen Thompson (38:39)

I love your organizational strategies too. They're important. Jumping and sprinting, how do you feel about those?

Dr. Shannon Richie (38:45)

I think jumping got a bad reputation for a long time. That it was bad for our joints.

Tamsen Thompson (38:51)

Yeah.

Dr. Shannon Richie (38:52)

And it's not bad for your joints, but it can be if the dosage is too high, if you're doing too much of it. And that goes for any type of exercise. If you're doing too much of it, your body's going to wear down. We have what's called allostatic load. So when you add too much stress to your body, it doesn't respond favorably. You start getting pain, achy joints, you stop seeing the adaptations and the results that you're looking for. So when it comes to jumping, adding a little bit of jumping can actually be really beneficial for your bone. But we just don't want to do a ton of it.

Tamsen Thompson (39:24)

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Tamsen Thompson (41:13)

If there's a woman listening right now that has felt pretty discouraged. Body. You know, I look in the mirror and my body doesn't look like it used to. I've tried everything and it just feels like nothing is working. What do you want to say directly to her?

Dr. Shannon Richie (41:26)

You're never too late. You can always build muscle. A 95 year old woman who has no muscle can build muscle. It just takes enough consistency and enough time and the right ingredients. And I think typically why people don't see results and they feel so burned out is because they're just doing way too much. They have no structure and they're not prioritizing recovery. They think that if they take a rest day that they're lazy and we're beating our ourselves up physically, literally and mentally, emotionally and that's just not something that we can stick with. And that is the big differentiator between fitness culture and exercise science and how our body actually adapts and evolves. And there's a disconnect. And when we can understand the true exercise science, the true ingredients that work, it's so hopeful because you're like, I don't have to hurt, I don't have to feel all beat up. And I can see progress no matter how young or old. I am.

Tamsen Thompson (42:23)

I think that's what's so encouraging because I, I do think that, you know, women try to do it all and get it all in, and if they don't see some type of results, I feel like, oh, my gosh, I'm not doing it enough because I have the I'm not doing it enough thing, and then it makes me want to give up. So I feel like you're really encouraging so many women. You have to see some incredible success stories.

Dr. Shannon Richie (42:42)

Oh, yeah. And we, we have people of all ages that are. And I love the, I love the testimonials from like, the women that are like 50, 65, that are like, I have built more muscle now than I did when I was in my 30s. Like, that is so cool. And it's so inspiring to me because it's just like, yeah, if we give our bodies the right. Our bodies are so freaking smart and adaptable. We just have to give it the right stimulus, the right ingredients.

Tamsen Thompson (43:07)

I can't imagine what you do when you open up your social media. You're probably like eye rolling all the time. Is there a trend online that you are either sick of seeing or you're like, I am so over this. Like, I can't wait for this to go away.

Dr. Shannon Richie (43:18)

Oh, gosh, where do I begin? Um, I think one thing that is like, it's having a moment is grip strength. Have you seen, like, the whole grip thing? Yes, it's everywhere. And so grip strength, you need to farmers carry 75% of your body weight or you need to be able to dead hang, like hold from a bar for X amount of time. And this is all coming from data that showed that grip strength is correlated with longevity. So the stronger your grip is, the more likely you are to live a long time. Now, I'm not debating that that's true. However, in those studies, it's grip is just really easy to measure and test. It's very simple. You can use a hand dynamometer. You don't have to do much. You can, you can study a ton of people. So it's just a really reliable, easy way to test if someone's strong or not. Because grip strength is associated with full body strength strength. But that doesn't mean that we need to go train our, our grip separately. It just means that we need to get strong overall. And if we're strong overall and we're lifting weights, your grip strength will also improve. Okay. Now some people feel limited by their grip strength. Like maybe they are doing lunges and they feel like their grip strength gives out before their glutes.

Tamsen Thompson (44:36)

Sure.

Dr. Shannon Richie (44:36)

Okay, then maybe we do need to train our grip separately. And you could do that using, like a hand dynamometer thing. You don't have to go do dead hangs and farmer's carries to train your grip and to get stronger in your grip. So I think it's really important to know that because a study tested this to show a bigger measure, which is overall muscle, doesn't mean that that's now what we need to go apply. I think we kind of lost the force with the trees.

Tamsen Thompson (44:58)

Well, I think sometimes we see something over and over and we're like, now the only thing I'm going to do is this.

Dr. Shannon Richie (45:02)

Yes.

Tamsen Thompson (45:02)

That's all I should be focused on.

Dr. Shannon Richie (45:04)

Yes.

Tamsen Thompson (45:04)

I wanted to ask you one question before I let you go. How do people measure, or how do you have people measuring how much muscle they're gaining versus how much, you know, fat they're losing?

Dr. Shannon Richie (45:14)

Yeah, I guess several ways. So the most reliable, easily accessible way that we have is through a DEXA scan. So some doctor's offices will do them. Or there's a different body spec is one that you can go. It's like a mobile, like they do them in a truck. And you can go see what your body fat is compared to your muscle mass. And it also gives you bone density. So that's kind of the most mathematical way to do it. There are home body composition scales that you can use. I will say I used one those of. Of them and because I wanted to see how, like, the hand, the tall handles, you hold the things and it like, measures your body and it spits out your body fat and your muscle and I think maybe bone. So I wanted to see how accurate they were. So I went and got a DEXA scan. And then immediately after I came home and I did the body scan and what I found was that it was pretty inaccurate.

Tamsen Thompson (46:05)

Inaccurate? Really? Like less than it didn't give you much.

Dr. Shannon Richie (46:08)

Underestimated my fat mass and overestimated my lean mass.

Tamsen Thompson (46:13)

Underestimated. Oh, wow.

Dr. Shannon Richie (46:14)

Yeah.

Tamsen Thompson (46:15)

So was lying to you and being like, you're doing great.

Dr. Shannon Richie (46:17)

Yes, exactly. So if I. If I was, maybe I want the homestead, I was like, maybe, but. But here's my thing is we don't care so much about the absolute value. What we care about is the trend. So if you're using the same thing to measure your body fat and your lean mass, you will see it trend over time. And that's what you're concerned about. It's less about, like, The. Oh, I mean, the overall number does matter. Okay. But it's more about the trend over time.

Tamsen Thompson (46:39)

So I had my DEXA scan done two months ago, and I got the papers and I got. So I pulled them up for you. Yay. Can I show you these? Because actually, it's like a lot of numbers, and I don't really know, you know.

Dr. Shannon Richie (46:51)

Yes. And if.

Tamsen Thompson (46:52)

And I'd like to know if I should body. You know, how I should body recomposition or what I should be looking at.

Dr. Shannon Richie (46:56)

Totally. Because what happens is, what Tamsen is showing me is this report that you get when you get a body scan, when you get a DEXA scan, and it'll give you, like, all of your fat mass and where it is regionally in your body, and then it'll give you your lean mass and your muscle mass.

Tamsen Thompson (47:13)

So that's your DEXA, which usually usually gets older. I'm 55.

Dr. Shannon Richie (47:17)

But you can get them. You don't have to wait until you're 65. Like, you can get them at any age to kind of give you a baseline of where you're at. And the absolute numbers, I don't want to say they're unimportant, but they're less important than the trend. Than the trend that we're seeing. So if you got a DEXA scan this year and then you got another one next year, and you saw your lean mass go down and your fat mass go up, which is typically what happens to people if they're not doing the right interventions, then we have a problem, and then we need to intervene in the correct ways. You have a total of. If I'm tracking this right, 87 pounds of lean mass, that number right there, that lean mass, that is your muscle mass. That's also your bone. That's also all your organs. That's anything that's not fat. So that's 87 pounds. And then you have 34.7 pounds of fat, and your body fat percentage is good, is 28.5. Okay. So that's. That's a. I mean, that is not a bad body fat percentage. However, what we would love to see is this lean mass go up, go up, and body fat potentially go down.

Tamsen Thompson (48:20)

So we're at 87.

Dr. Shannon Richie (48:22)

You're at 87 lean and 34 fat mass.

Tamsen Thompson (48:25)

What do you think would be good?

Dr. Shannon Richie (48:26)

I think we could get 87 up to 90 pretty easily, really, in just maybe six months. Okay. Or if we want to go for the £5 in one year, I think you could easily do that. And then we could get that fat mass down by a couple, a couple pounds and you would, you would feel

Tamsen Thompson (48:43)

different, see a difference. And what would the percentage be for what is a ideal percentage? I don't know if there's ideals the word. But where do you want to see your fat percentages?

Dr. Shannon Richie (48:53)

It's a good question. I think it, it varies person to person. You are lean. So I, I wouldn't, I almost wouldn't worry so much about the fat. Obviously like it's going to, you're in that like fine tuning phase, honestly. So we were talking about like low body fat percentage is pretty hard to sustain. So I would say anything under like 18% body fat is pretty difficult to sustain now. That's when you're going to be jacked.

Tamsen Thompson (49:19)

I was, but it was also, you know, where I was not, not doing good with eating. I mean I was like eating disordered.

Dr. Shannon Richie (49:26)

Yes.

Tamsen Thompson (49:26)

So it was a really difficult but. And then I was working out like crazy. So I'm very aware that wasn't healthy. Yeah, but this is exciting to hear. I guess I didn't know those numbers were. Well, you know what they, Yeah, I mean what they meant.

Dr. Shannon Richie (49:39)

I think you were doing really, this, this honestly does look good. But I, I think we're in a fine tuning phase with you. And so that just is going to mean just really tuning in on the ingredients on diet and proper strength training.

Tamsen Thompson (49:51)

Okay.

Dr. Shannon Richie (49:51)

I think for fat mass a lot of people feel really good around like 20 to 25% body fat because it doesn't feel like you, you are living in the gym and eating very, very little. It feels very sustainable. Okay. So I think that could be a good goal for you.

Tamsen Thompson (50:10)

Thank you very much. I remembered that I was like, I think I have that. Yes. Hold on. Yes.

Dr. Shannon Richie (50:15)

It's hard to interpret because there's so many numbers.

Tamsen Thompson (50:17)

How often should I be getting the DEXA scans then?

Dr. Shannon Richie (50:19)

I would say you could do them once a year at a minimum. I think that's great. If you want to do twice a year, great. If you are really fine tuning and you're like, okay, am I doing the right things? You could do once a quarter and that the reason I like once a quarter at first is because musc muscle growth typically takes around 8 to 12 weeks.

Tamsen Thompson (50:36)

Okay.

Dr. Shannon Richie (50:37)

So if you're doing it more frequently, like if you're doing it once a month, you're probably not going to see big changes. But you can see if what you're doing is working. If you get them once a quarter and then from there you can spread them out more once you realize, okay, this is working, I can spread it out more. I can get it twice a year, once a year.

Tamsen Thompson (50:52)

I love this because I feel like I'm, I understand the science now and it's not that I'm just going to go throw some weights around the gym.

Dr. Shannon Richie (50:58)

Yes, yes. It's. I always say, I hope that it works. Right? And I always, always say, like lifting weights, just because you're lifting weights doesn't mean you're building muscle. So you really, really. And I, I know I've said this a million times, but you have to lift with the right intention.

Tamsen Thompson (51:11)

So where can people train with you in the, in your method?

Dr. Shannon Richie (51:13)

Yes. So you can follow me on Instagram. Dr. Shannon Dpt. I do a lot of education on there. And then Evolo Fitness, Evlo fitness dot com. You can try code Tamsen for six weeks free. I also have a podcast in case someone wants to learn more about the body recomposition stuff. I do did a whole 10 episode series about it, so it's called the Dr. Shannon Show. You can go listen to those and yeah, that's great.

Tamsen Thompson (51:36)

I'm so happy you're here. You have big fans at this show, so thank you.

Dr. Shannon Richie (51:40)

Well, thank you for having me.

Tamsen Thompson (51:42)

Thanks for coming and sharing and we will. I'm definitely going to do it. I'm going to sign up for it.

Dr. Shannon Richie (51:46)

You need to.

Tamsen Thompson (51:46)

Yes. I want five pounds. I want to gain five pounds.

Dr. Shannon Richie (51:49)

You got it this year.

Tamsen Thompson (51:50)

Okay. Thank you guys so much for listening today. I hope this conversation helped you and made strength training, which we hear about over and over, a little more clear and a lot less intimidating. If you want more from Dr. Shannon Richie, I'm going to leave all the links she just talked about in the show notes, including Evlo, so you can learn about that and start putting it into practice and test it out if you want to. And if this episode was helpful for you, I would really love if you would leave a quick review wherever you listen. It helps more women find these conversations and it really means more to me than you know. I'll talk to you next time on the Tamsen Show. Today's podcast is sponsored by Midi Health.

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