← The Tamsen Show
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- [00:00]
Tamsen Fadal
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game?
- [00:07]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
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- [00:11]
Tamsen Fadal
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- [00:15]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states.
- [00:25]
Unknown
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- [00:55]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Have you ever looked back at a relationship and thought was that love or was I just being emotionally manipulated?
- [01:01]
Tamsen Fadal
Because same these are people who at times can charming, charismatic. The sex can be good. You'll just be like oh my gosh, this relationship is so toxic. And then boom. One of those moments will come.
- [01:11]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I cannot wait for you hear this conversation with Dr. Ramani Darvasala, Clinical psychologist, best selling author, and quite honestly the Internet's most trusted truth teller. When it comes to toxic relationships.
- [01:23]
Tamsen Fadal
People shrink to stay in these relationships and basically live their lives in service to appeasing, pleasing, walking on eggshells. It's definitely taken a psychological toll on people.
- [01:34]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Her book, it's as a lifeline and she's giving us the tools that we need to spot narcissistic behavior, shut down gaslighting and get out with our sanity and our self worth intact.
- [01:45]
Tamsen Fadal
People say like if you were to say one thing that could hedge against getting too deep into a narcissistic relationship. Here's the therapist hack.
- [01:51]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Let's get into it. Dr. Ramani, I am so excited you're here today.
- [01:57]
Tamsen Fadal
Oh, I'm so happy to be here. Tamset. I really, I love what you're doing for women with women and having this conversation again. I think maybe 25 years ago I'd be like oh whatever. And honey, I mean I'm, I'm on the perimenopause like downslope here. So.
- [02:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, well we've got you so not to worry. We're making it up slope though. It'll be, it'll be good.
- [02:16]
Tamsen Fadal
Love it.
- [02:17]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It'll be good. Your book has just been game changing and fascinating and I know so many women have brought it up to me and so I knew I had to have you on this podcast.
- [02:28]
Tamsen Fadal
Thank you.
- [02:29]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
For this reason though is because a lot of women in midlife Are looking around and saying, like, what is going on? When it comes to my relationships, when it comes to my health, when it comes to my career. And you know, we talked about it a little bit, but I wanna dive in because you discuss narcissism in such a way that I don't realize that it goes into so many different areas of our life. Like, I had no, I just had no idea. So can you define first what is a narcissist? Just to get down to basics of what is that?
- [02:55]
Tamsen Fadal
So a narcissistic person is a person with a narcissistic personality. Just like a stubborn person is a person with a stubborn personality. An agreeable person, somewhat agreeable personality. So. And a narcissistic personality is a personality that's characterized by low empathy. I don't say no empathy, but low empathy. They know how to turn it on when they need to. Right. They can be charming and they can be. Right. So it's low empathy that sort of is there. And sometimes it's not. Entitlement, arrogance, pathological selfishness, an excessive need for admiration. And I say excessive. We all want to be admired. This is an excessive need for admiration. And if they don't get it, they get really angry. There is, they don't manage strong emotions well. There's no frustration tolerance. So people who are narcissistic are either raging at you if you don't do or say exactly what they want, or there's a passive aggressive, withholding, withdrawing, sort of silent treatment. So these are personalities where relationships are really about control and dominance. But what I always say is that all that stuff, the entitlement, the arrogance, the grandiosity, I'm so great, look at me, I'm charming. It's all covering this deeper insecurity and shame and that anytime that insecurity or shame threatens to percolate up in the narcissistic person, that's when you see the attack. Now it could be that your so called attack is as simple as saying, hey, could you pick up the kids today? You want me to pick up the kids? Do you not think my time is valuable? I run a damn company. So it's like, that's not an insult. That's like, could you pick up the kids?
- [04:32]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So you could never know where it came up. Talking about tiptoe, it's another level, but it's another, you could never know. You know, as you were saying all those things, I was like, because I, you know, I told you I was in a relationship, a long relationship with a, with A narcissistic person that I didn't realize at the time, I just didn't have the word, I didn't have the vocabulary.
- [04:50]
Tamsen Fadal
A lot of people didn't.
- [04:51]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But I. But I think about those. And those things would percolate and I was like, I said the same thing yesterday and today it was received differently. And that's what it is. So the same exact thing one day to the next day, but it leaves you struggling to hold on, right? And please, please be okay today. And that's the fight.
- [05:10]
Tamsen Fadal
And so what people do in these relationships is they become smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and basically live their lives in service to appeasing, pleasing, walking on eggshells, and being hyper vigilant around the narcissistic person. So they don't set them off. Because these relationships aren't bad every day. And that's the challenge of narcissism, right? In the sense that these are people who at times can be charming, charismatic, the sex can be good. They may be really. You may enjoy your conversations, you might have similar hobbies, they might be great with the kids, you have a dog you love. Like there are these moments and those bright moments, well, then you'll just be like, oh my gosh, this relationship is so toxic. And then boom, one of those moments will come. And that backing and forth and creates a unique dynamic we often see in these relationships called a trauma bond. And that, that backing and forthing gets people stuck and over time they blame themselves. Maybe if I just said that different, maybe if I'd left the house a little cleaner, maybe I shouldn't have criticized them for. And so you start criticizing yourself for very, very basic needs questions you're asking. That's what I'm saying. People shrink to stay in these relationships and in the long term can take a tremendous toll on people. And even more so if a person might have grown up with a narcissistic parent. And so they've already grown up learning to make themselves small, and now they're in a relationship and it's sort of like part two of this, and so it continues for a lifetime.
- [06:34]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Do people with narcissistic parents seek this kind of relationship?
- [06:37]
Tamsen Fadal
They don't seek it. And that's one.
- [06:39]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
No, interesting.
- [06:40]
Tamsen Fadal
That's one thing I. That' that's like one myth I'd love to bust is that I think this whole sense of, well, of course I found this person. They're just like my mother. I said, no, you didn't go out looking for this. I don't buy the masochist theory. What I buy is that narcissistic people are often super smart, confident, charming, charismatic, attractive, well put together. They're oftentimes the archetype of what looks good on paper. Or they just manage to mesh with some sort of core wound you have. They pick out that thing and they know to just compliment you on it or say, gosh, your family told you you're not that smart. I think you're so smart. So it doesn't have to be a dozen roses. It can just be that healing or temporary healing. It feels like of a core wound because of that. In the in, I think everyone's attracted to a narcissistic person. What I always say to folks is if you came from a narcissistic family of origin or had a narcissistic parent, it's not that you're more likely to draw a narcissistic person or be attracted to them. It's that you're more likely to get stuck in the relationship because you can feel it's normalized. Like you're like, oh, ye. You have to chase love, and no one's ever gonna love me unconditionally. So there's that feel. But we do make the mistake, Tamsin of. I think one of the big mistakes I see out there on social media is that we only talk about the grandiose form of narcissism, the charming, charismatic, arrogant, you know, high sizzle obvious. But there's different subtypes of narcissism. And that's why some people, like you said, I didn't even know the word or I didn't think this applied. There are, because of. There are these different kinds of narcissism. There are people out there in very toxic narcissistic relationships, but because it doesn't sort conform to this charming, charismatic kind of narcissism, we miss it. So I think that this isn't as simple as somebody walking around bragging about themselves. Arrogant. It can be, but it's not always so.
- [08:27]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Dr. Ramonique, can we go through what are some of those other kind of stereotypes so we know what to look for? Because I want people at the end of this to, you know, know how to define it, know what to look for, and if they do spot that they're in that type of relationship to at least be able to acknowledge it, find that vocabulary that not all of us have had and, you know, and figure out a way to. To get out or get help.
- [08:46]
Tamsen Fadal
One thing I want to make here is Number one, it not an either or a person. It's not that a person's narcissistic or not.
- [08:51]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, it's not black or white.
- [08:53]
Tamsen Fadal
No, we don't all. We're break that myth too by the whole healthy narcissism thing. So first of all, narcissism's on a continuum. And frankly, at the mild end, it feels more like an emotionally stunted, emotionally immature, superficial, almost ridiculous person. Right. It's the 50 year old person who still wants to play their video games and throw a tantrum when you ask them to empty the dishwasher. Right. That is a milder narcissism. And some people say, I would have loved better, but I don't feel like I'm psychologically unsafe. I'm annoyed.
- [09:29]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right.
- [09:30]
Tamsen Fadal
When we get to the severe end of narcissism, though, Tamsin, it can be downright dangerous. These are people who might isolate a partner, take tremendous advantage of them, financially abuse them. There might even be physical abuse. The manipulation is at a very high level and it can feel very hard to escape most people. And in fact, my book it's not yout is really written about that modern. It doesn't look like, you know, a sort of a terrifying story. Nor is it just somebody who won't empty the dishwasher. It's. It's definitely taking a psychological toll on people. So that's the whole spectrum of it. But within that spectrum there are also subtypes. Our kind of dictionary definition of narcissism is that grandiose, sort of swagger narcissist. But there's also a form of narcissism. It's called vulnerable narcissism. Some people call it covert narcissism. It doesn't show up as narcissism. It shows up as sort of an angry, aggrieved, sullen, passive aggressive. Why don't I get my chance? I feel like everyone's taking advantage of me. Nothing is fair to me that it doesn't show up as narcissism. And their partners are always like, they kind of feel bad for them, like nothing is going their way. Sometimes it's pity. Yeah, pity is harder to leave in a way because you're like, gosh, this relationship is so exhausting and they blame me for everything. Because that's a key dynamic in narcissism is they blame the other person. Nothing's ever their responsibility. There's no accountability. And then when we use this term, covert narcissism, I would argue that all narcissism is covert. And by what I mean by that is it doesn't show up when other people are around. You're at the dinner party and a lot of people think you're either with this really smart person or interesting person or well put together person or just clever person. But as soon as you get out of that circumstance, they're really cruel to you. But then there's no one witnessing this but the vulnerable. Narcissism has more of a socially anxious, hostile, angry, thin skinned kind of a feel. Then there's malignant narcissism, which is that more severe narcissism which is coercive and manipulative and exploitative and scary.
- [11:31]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
That's a dangerous one.
- [11:32]
Tamsen Fadal
That's a dangerous all the way to the end.
- [11:34]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay?
- [11:35]
Tamsen Fadal
And then there's forms of narcissism that I don't think we talk about enough that come up a lot. And one of them is what we call communal narcissism. And communal narcissism are narcissistic folks who get their narcissistic supply sort of their narcissistic juice by being perceived as do gooders and rescuers. She always remembers the thank you notes like he always picks up the check. He's a pillar of our community. He coaches a little league, but is really unkind to the people they're close to. But the picture of them is as this sort of savior, great person, throw the best Christmas party and donate all this money to the community. But they're actually really unkind to the people maybe who work for them or.
- [12:15]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Who are covers everything. That's kind of the.
- [12:17]
Tamsen Fadal
Covers it up.
- [12:17]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
30,000 beautiful picture from 30,000ft.
- [12:20]
Tamsen Fadal
And then also nice if you're close, but the people in the relationship are confused because everyone's saying, oh my gosh, you're so lucky to be in a relationship with him. He's a pillar of our community. And the person's thinking, this has got to be me. Because I don't understand my parents. Why call the book it's not you.
- [12:36]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And that's the hardest thing to overcome though, is to think that it, that it's not you. That is the difficult part. When somebody comes in and talks to you or you hear a story, do you know immediately that someone's dealing with an narcissist? Or, I mean, is there, you know.
- [12:50]
Tamsen Fadal
I don't know immediately. And I would never be so confident in myself that I would think that. But as the stories start coming out, I always say there's a therapist hack and I teach Therapists. I train therapists all over the world on how to work with people who are in these relationships. Here's the therapist hack that I'm going to share here with everyone is that when a person is going through a narcissistic relationship, they don't come into therapy with me and say, he's a jerk and he's a liar and he's a betrayer. You know what they come in, in therapy and say to me? Usually in those first few sessions, I'm so confused. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, what is wrong with me. It's all what's wrong with me. And that's when my ears perk up. I'm like, I think we got. I think we've got someone who's going through this. Because if somebody comes in and says, my partner this, my partner that, my partner the other, I actually am even starting to entertain the hypothesis of, and why is there no accountability here? Because what I tend to see is that people come in and say, what am I doing wrong? And that's what brought them into therapy. And so that's something that I definitely see as a big difference. But no, even if somebody came in and said, listen, let's say Tamsen, somebody came into my office and said, my partner's cheating on me. And this is the third affair they've had, still my go to is not gonna be that they're narcissistic.
- [14:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Oh, wow.
- [14:11]
Tamsen Fadal
Tell me a little bit about what. Tell, tell me the story of this. Now, is it top up there in the hypothesis?
- [14:17]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Sure.
- [14:17]
Tamsen Fadal
But I'm not going to say, ding, we got a live one. I'm going to be thinking, tell me more about what is happening here. And so as I do the assessment, it'll become more clear to me. Like, again, we'll be seeing some of these again, the not taking responsibility, the attacks when they feel insecure, the making the partner smaller and smaller, the really variable empathy that looking one way to the world and another way behind closed doors, et cetera, et cetera. So it's never a slam dunk. You have to ask the question.
- [14:50]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's fascinating though, that that's what you look for versus hearing that somebody has an affair or is a grandioso. Because that does totally make sense. Because that person wouldn't be putting that out there first. They wouldn't be saying, what's wrong with me? Is it me?
- [15:03]
Tamsen Fadal
Is it me? What am I doing wrong? I'm so confused. And there's often a sense of, I'm afraid to leave this relationship. Cause what if I'm wrong?
- [15:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, I think the other threat that always sits there when just talking about relationship is like, what if somebody else gets them and they change for them? They're different for them and it's me.
- [15:18]
Tamsen Fadal
That'S caused this person or, or the next person is going to have this better version that I went through all this nightmare and therapy and all this stuff. No, it's just going to be they're going to have your relationship and you just pretty much. I'm like, get the popcorn and watch it unfold. But I said, but that could take 10 years. Like you were in this relationship for 30 years. It could take them 30 years.
- [15:37]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Is it hard to show somebody that they're with a narcissist or do people have. Are people more attuned to that? Social media has. You know, we've talked about the fact that social media has helped in a lot of ways with a lot of different things. So we do know this term now. It's out there. Does it help A little bit. Do people identify that they're in a relationship with a narcissist? Better.
- [15:56]
Tamsen Fadal
It's mixed. It's mixed. I think there's. The good thing is, is that people are open to this. And I have to say again, from a therapist chair.
- [16:03]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Sure.
- [16:03]
Tamsen Fadal
I'm not telling anyone say, roll in the room and say, well, I'm telling you now, you're with a narcissistic person. The key becomes a lot of times people don't even know what makes a relationship unhealthy. And so when we can put the lens and say that whole cycle, it's interesting you're blaming yourself for that because da da da, da da da. So we're almost helping the client become their own detective instead of just plopping that in the middle of the room. Because, Tamsin, to be frank with you, if I just walked up to someone and say, yo, your boyfriend or your husband's narcissistic, they would shut down and they would close me out. Because they've been in an unhealthy relationship for a long time and they're really used to rationalizing it. So I gotta find the back door and really say, are you okay? That seems hurtful. And it might be the first time anyone's even pointed out to them and they do feel a little hurt. And they're like, it was. It sounds hurtful to me. Are you okay? So you're using. You're coming in with empathy, but also awareness. Like that was not cool.
- [16:59]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right.
- [17:00]
Tamsen Fadal
And then that helps them sort of create a more elaborate picture. Tamsen. If someone's in one of these relationships long enough, they think what's happening in this relationship is normal.
- [17:09]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So people will say, it's been a grain.
- [17:11]
Tamsen Fadal
It's not normal like that. That's not what other people are going through. And you're like, no, no, no. This is not in the realm of healthy.
- [17:18]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Wow. And I know there's so many relationships like that out there, and we've had so many emails with. With people asking about this, this topic, how to spot it, how to deal with it, how to determine if that's really what's going on or it's, you know, one of these different layers. Which is why I think it's interesting that it's not just the grandioso part. Let's talk about cities for a minute. Are there more narcissists in cities versus elsewhere and narcissists in general nowadays?
- [17:45]
Tamsen Fadal
I don't think we're seeing more narcissists in general. I think they've always been. There's been always been narcissistic people out there. I just don't think we had the name. But listen, enough people out there have narcissistic parents who can even look back in their family tree and say, oh, my grandparent was narcissistic. This has always been there. In fact, a colleague of mine, Dr. Keith Campbell, him and I had a conversation about this, and it really stayed with me because I think he's a tremendous expert in the field of understanding narcissism. And him and I agreed. This grandiose narcissism, the ang. The arrogant posturing, you know, swaggery narcissistic person that staying steady. I think the reason we think there's more of it is social media. Like, I don't. I don't know what these people did before social media. I guess they sort of stayed narcissistic in their small little swimming pools. But we, when social media came along, we gave them the megaphone, right? So that's what they were the ones who grabbed it and said, look at me. And I'm just going to sort of shamelessly put myself out in the world, that kind of thing. It was the vulnerable narcissism that I think has really gotten that. I think that form of narcissism, that more angry, aggrieved, hostile, mad at the world kind of narcissism. I think that has probably, and Dr. Campbell agrees, that has expanded. And I think the reason for that is that vulnerable narcissism. These are people who, when they sense that other people have it better than them or getting away with things, they get really mad. They feel like they're being taken advantage of and that they're victim. Vulnerable narcissists are forever the vict. And with social media, you're actually able to see who's got the better car, who's got the better job, who's got the better stuff. And I think that that's creating a frothing up of people who may not have always expressed that. And I think that's coming out much more than it once did. But with any personality style, it gets shaped in childhood, right? So nobody's born narcissistic by that argument. Every baby is narcissistic because they're pretty selfish, right? And so it gets shaped. And I think that those childhood conditions, I mean, narcissistic people become narcissistic because of things that aren't great in childhood, frankly, or they're very spoiled. But I think spoiling a child is also not great. So it is not great conditions in childhood. Those have been kind of a universal. And so I don't know that there's more. I think we have a name for it, so now we notice it. When you have a name for something, you notice it. I think social media has made them very loud in society. I think the way we consume entertainment has really given them a massive platform. And I think as a result, now everywhere. We're seeing it everywhere in society because we've. We've elevated this. We are no longer like, ooh, that's not so great. But they've always been there. So I think we're just noticing it a lot more.
- [20:29]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Noticing it and being able to put words with what it is is huge. I want to talk about women in midlife, because we talk about that a lot. You know, I went through my divorce at 41 years old. I was in a relationship with somebody that had all of those type of tendencies. I had no idea. I was focused on work. That's what I did, and got into a relationship. I hit the timeline thing. I'm 35. Oh, my gosh, what do I need to do next? And I didn't understand any of that. I just understood that sometimes the person was amazing and charming and everybody loved them. But to me, I saw somebody very, very different and was in a very dark place for a long. I saw, you know, I saw another person. Midlife is a time that we go through a lot of change. We go through the perimenopause, we go through the, you know, the menopause, we go through the trying to figure out who we are, we go through the what's next in my life, career wise. Are women in midlife more prone to being in narcissistic relationships or staying in them?
- [21:28]
Tamsen Fadal
I think there's some unique things that happen in midlife and there's two sort of two ways that we could talk about this. One is a person in midlife life who may be dating again.
- [21:38]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Sure.
- [21:38]
Tamsen Fadal
Okay, so maybe they've gotten out of a, a long term marriage, maybe they were single for a very long time and at a time of their life, they're very career focused and say, you know what, I, I want to share my life with a partner or my business went exactly the way I wanted, I'm going to enjoy, I'm going to reap the rewards of that. I want a companion. Okay, so there's, that's one path. We are an ageist society. So not only are we a menopausist society, we are an ageist society.
- [22:03]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Those things.
- [22:04]
Tamsen Fadal
Yeah, right. And those things tend to go.
- [22:06]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes, they do.
- [22:07]
Tamsen Fadal
And so we talk about this idea of the pressure A woman at 35 might have felt, right. I want to have children, I want to get married, I want whatever the, all my friends are married. I think there's a very similar pressure that shows up somewhere between 50 and 65, which is I want to go into these last third of my life, if you will, or these years of my life with a companion. I've got more time. We know that actually aging with someone actually can often be a healthier thing, even if it's just someone has eyes on you. Right. Not a narcissist. And so, but there's this pressure. And then again, we have the ageism of many women. And again, I'm saying this from a clinical perch of saying, I'm 60, no 60 year old man's gonna wanna date me. He's gonna wanna date someone significantly younger than me. And I don't know that I wanna date someone who's 75. And so there is this sense of while I still feel like I look good, I gotta lock this down. And if there's one thing that makes people vulnerable to entering a narcissistic relationship is feeling a sense of time pressure. But if a person's been out of the dating world for a while, 30 years, maybe they got married, they raised kids, and in fact, some people will stay even in an unhealthy marriage until all their Minor children turn 18 so they don't have to deal with the nightmare of family court. And so then 18 happens. They're like, okay, I can get out of this without having to have a custody battle, have a nude kind of battle.
- [23:29]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Right, right.
- [23:30]
Tamsen Fadal
And then they're thinking, okay, I want to date again. Again. Well, there's a combination of if you do not do the healing from the narcissistic relationship, you may very well walk into a different form of narcissistic relationship. A lot of dating has now moved into online platforms which if you're not accustomed to that space, let me tell you, narcissistic people can really rule the roost when it comes to dating platforms. They're great at creating the grid and like, look at me, puppies, abs, you know, my tourist pictures. I'm so fit, I'm so this, you know, they say the right things because it's such a curious and so that I've seen put people at risk for making, for meeting a narcissistic partner in midlife. And so that can also be a risk too. So I think that we don't have healthy conversations about women in midlife. Perimenopause, menopause, starting new relationships. I think we, we, we put all of us out on an ice floe and this desexualized ice flow, by the way, that you're not going to want to meet someone and why would we even want to talk about. I don't know. I mean, I would love to hear your thoughts about this. I don't know. We have a cultural moment. I don't like the Golden Bachelor, but it still felt tongue in cheek. It was haha.
- [24:40]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It was Hari.
- [24:41]
Tamsen Fadal
Haha.
- [24:41]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I agree with that. I know we said it was about time. I know we were happy to see. Look, I think we wanted people to be represented in media, but not that way.
- [24:48]
Tamsen Fadal
Not that way. So it became almost like it was a sideshow act. Right. And it felt disrespectful. And so because of all that, anytime people might feel like they're dating or meeting partners in a more, I don't know, they're ashamed to talk about it. That can happen in midlife too. So that's one setup for people getting into narcissistic relationships. On the flip side are people who have been in long term narcissistic relationships, marriages most likely, and are in midlife, they don't want to get out or they don't quite understand what's happening. But as perimenopause and menopause set in, very real changes are happening to us. And they're different for every woman, and they're similar for every woman. But more than anything, a lot of them don't feel good. And instead of having a partner who's validating and loving and meets a partner where, you know, where you. Where they could. In terms of sex, in terms of intimacy, in terms of closeness, in terms of conversation, in terms of just getting it, that you're going through something. What women who are in narcissistic relationships in midlife will experience is criticism, maybe even disgust. A sense that it's almost like the partner may slip away. Like, now they're really gonna wanna trade me in for a younger person. Because that's always a. That's always something that's dangled in the relationship even before all of this began. And to me, the greatest tragedy, Tamsin, is that people think that I gotta stick this out because who's gonna take care of me when I'm older? And I said, sweetie, let me tell you, who ain't gonna take care of you when you're older is him.
- [26:26]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yep.
- [26:27]
Tamsen Fadal
So there is this sense of, well, if I leave this and I could be alone. And I said, that's a different conversation. But if you are thinking that you've put some form of psychological Money in the bank, some coin.
- [26:39]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah. And you deposited coins that are going.
- [26:41]
Tamsen Fadal
To come back to you and they're going to be there for you if your aging process ends up resulting in more health problems earlier. Oh, heck no. You would be better off cultivating your friendships and other supports than you would on relying on this person to be any form of. And Tamsen, that's real. That is very real. Because a person could get painted into a corner, but that belief, when a person is in their 60s and their health is still good. Yeah, sure, the bumps in the road from menopause, but your health is still good. You can't envision what that's going to look like. And when it does happen. And I have worked with a lot of people who got to 75, 80, 85, and their health did really take a downturn. And that narcissistic partner was nowhere to be seen. And if anything, expressed all kinds of inconvenience about having to deal with this.
- [27:29]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So you're dealing with health issues and you're dealing with trying to. To prove to somebody you're still good enough, please stay with me and make them stay in grief.
- [27:36]
Tamsen Fadal
I put up with this 55 years. I put up with a marginal relationship thinking like, okay, we're going to grow old together. At least there's that and there's not that.
- [27:45]
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- [28:17]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
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- [29:50]
Tamsen Fadal
Yeah.
- [29:51]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And you don't even know where to begin with something like that. Right. And, and I have a friend of mine that, you know, we go back and forth and I she's been looking for something on dating apps for 10 years. 2010 years. And every time she's like, this is the one. This is. And then she gets into the thing and it's not the one. And, and so. And I noticed that it does feel like it can be a, an area that is really concerning, whether it's financial concerns that somebody could go after, physical concerns, or, you know, a mental, emotional and psychological.
- [30:19]
Tamsen Fadal
All of the above. And I think, listen, I am not. My message through the world is not to breed a cynicism, but an awareness. Sure, right. That it is. And. And I'd say people say, like, if you were to say one thing that could hedge against getting into, or getting too deep into a narcissistic relationship. I always tell people, people, take it really slow. Take it really slow. Don't move anyone into your place. I don't care if their lease came up. And wouldn't it be convenient? No, fool, it would be convenient. I don't care if they're upping your rent, like going with that or any of the things that people say. I feel bad. Slow down. And if that partner says, well, you're not moving, you're moving so slow. Maybe you're not interested in a commitment. Oh, I'm very interested in a commitment. But I'm going to do it at my pace. Because somebody who questions that, that feels gaslight. And that's a real sign for you that someone's trying to pull you onto their schedule, saying, I am taking this license. So I love the time I spend with you. But I also think for women in midlife, it's also to say what works for you. I can't tell you how many women I've worked with, especially people who were in long term narcissistic relationships, who went through the nightmare of those divorces and then finally set up their own residence and all of that. And they feel such a sense of calm being in a home where they don't have to wait for when my partner comes home, right? And they'll say, I don't know that I ever want someone in my space again. And I said, then that's fine. And they'll say, well, someone. Why would anyone want to be in a relationship like that? I said, someone will. And girl, I have met people who said, I married someone and we have separate houses. They're saying, like, I just needed my own spot. And I was like, that's a really cool idea. They actually happen to live on the same subway line. So it's like, not that hard. It's like four stops away kind of thing. And she said, we're together three nights of the week and we're separate four. And those three nights, our connection and snuggles and go out and all that. But those other nights we both work, we love our careers. It gives me a separate spot. It gives me a spot where she has adult children now, but they know it's like their spot with her. And then I think they come together. In this particular case, something up in his home, but sometimes hers. But she said it's just given me a place that I needed after all those years to regulate. My point being by midlife you have enough data to know what works for you. Trust that.
- [32:41]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
How do we give women permission to do that and get off the timeline train? Yeah, because we're talking. We're basically going back to the timeline again. But now we're in midlife on the timeline. It's not the timeline of getting married, having babies, excelling at the career. Now the timeline is I gotta find somebody again if they're not in a really, you know, if they're not in a relationship and make sure it's somebody that's gonna be with me for the long term. How do we get women off that time?
- [33:04]
Tamsen Fadal
The timeline I hear for later life is companionship, travel and maybe someone who sort of is going to have eyes on me. Like we're going to care for each other. Right. That's the new timeline. Right. That people have. You know, in fact, I don't. I wish I could remember who argued that there are. We have three relationships in our life, right. And like one is sort of the youthful exuberant, maybe even the marriage and child rearing relationship. And then there's one we might come into our own. And then there's third that's companionate and caregiving. And those might be with the same person, I guess, if you're really fortunate. What I feel like a lot of human beings don't do. This has nothing to do with gender is what I and for might be a technical term. Tamsin is what I call a self study. Right. Companies do them all the time. Businesses do them all the time. But to really dig into yourself and say, how do you like to live? Do you want to wake up next to someone or do you really like having your own place to live? I say this as a perimenopausal woman who needs to sleep in a 60 degree room. And it could, it could be 55. Air conditioners don't go that long low, right. It's madness the way I need to sleep. Right. And so I'm thinking I just want to be in my freezing cold room. But how do you like to live and really say, and not because the world says, you need to have this. If all those things were taken away, and I often will turn it into a thought experiment with someone, what would you like your life to look like after all these years you've accumulated life experience? It's harder to answer that question when you're 25.
- [34:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Sure it is.
- [34:30]
Tamsen Fadal
It should be a lot more straightforward when you're 60 to say, hmm, these are the things. These are the rhythms I like. These are the things I like. This is how I like to spend a Saturday night. This is how I want. This is. I want these things. So if a person says, you know, I like traveling with someone. I like looking at the tourist site and saying, isn't that beautiful? And someone else saying, you know, I actually like traveling alone, like, have that. Ask. Ask yourself those questions. Because I think the problem is, is that when we. We seek out relationships from an unexamined space, we often find partners that play on our core wounds rather than who we really are.
- [35:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And that's how we are in a narcissistic relationship.
- [35:12]
Tamsen Fadal
And that's how I think we can push back on the timelines, which is, what do you really want? And where is this pressure coming from too? Sometimes it's coming from friends who are saying, get out there now, you got a date, or you're going to be alone forever. In some cases, it could be watching how it played out in a family of origin. They'll say, oh, my mom died alone someplace. And I don't want that to be my story. Right. So it's paying attention to. Just because your mom died alone on her own in her home, that doesn't necessarily mean you rushing into a relationship is going to be the answer to that, to have the grief over that. But that's not the reason to get into a relationship. It's to look to, where are these narratives coming at?
- [35:55]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Because there's narratives and we've had our whole lives. I want to go back to menopause because I think when we talk about menopause and perimenopause, narcissists can use that in so many different ways. You're moody, you're hormonal, your hormones are talking. You don't want to have sex with me anymore, you might not find me attractive. Am I saying all those too fast?
- [36:15]
Tamsen Fadal
I got them all. I've heard every single one of them. Yeah.
- [36:19]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
How do women first, I guess, identify those because they're already feeling that way. So it's a very easy ramp up for a narcissist. A menopausal woman can be very easy for a narcissist. What do you tell women that come in there with that? Because they're already feeling that way, they're feeling hormonal, they're feeling moody, they might not want to have sex. There's a lot that happens during this time. Where do you start that conversation with a woman? And feeling invisible on top of all that.
- [36:44]
Tamsen Fadal
Right? So the most dangerous place to be in a narcissistic relationship or enter a narcissistic relationship, relationship from. Is to feel. Is to devalue yourself. Is to feel devalued. Right. And because of the way the world is, women going through menopause already might be coming in on their back foot. Right. There's a sort of a devaluation. And it's almost as though in a narcissistic relationship, if you play the devaluation game, I think that there is often this hope of, well, maybe they'll come in and say, no, you're not those things. But what you're instead doing is you're giving them ammunition. Quite sadly. So it's the. I think sadly, there's nothing you can do in the relationship. And the things you're doing, Tams and this podcast and all of that is for us to have healthier conversations. Because you've been asking about timelines. For example, young women grow up with Disney nonsense and fairy tales. And I'm gonna find the guy and he's gonna fall head over heels. And now it's Instagram. The romance that the nonsense people see on Instagram. Instagram about relationships and all that stuff. We don't even have fairy tales for older people. I guess they're the witch. That's what happens, right? It's always implied, like Maleficent was really old, right? Or that lady with the. The tentacles. Ursula. Like these are. We think they're old people. I'm imagining they're the equivalent of menopause in a fairy tale.
- [38:08]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I'm sure they are.
- [38:08]
Tamsen Fadal
I'm sure.
- [38:09]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I'm sure somebody had a haha about that.
- [38:11]
Tamsen Fadal
And I've had my Ursula moments with this.
- [38:13]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Well, me, I've had my Melissa.
- [38:15]
Tamsen Fadal
So I think that the issue then becomes exactly what you're talking about, which is, how do you feel about your menopausal body? How do you feel about yourself? Because this is going to get weaponized. Because listen, when a person is in a narcissistic relationship and they're Younger. A classic gaslight is, oh, you always get like this around your period. So it's. That's. That's that version. So it's just. It's just now it's getting turned into, oh, here we go. It's all your brain fog and all this other stuff. Now we got it. Of course you don't understand. Understand what I'm saying. So once again, you're being.
- [38:48]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I can feel that.
- [38:49]
Tamsen Fadal
Yeah, of course you're being. You're being treated in a diseased, pathologized manner. And so it's. You're the one with the problem because of your hormones, because of your body changes. And then, and then it feels plausible. I think the challenge is, is it feels plausible because, yes, these things are happening to my body. And then you think, well, maybe that is changing how I'm being in the relationship. And you, you're already confused in the relationship.
- [39:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Of course you are. How do you protect yourself or how do you put some boundaries around that if you're in that type of relationship and going through menopause? I mean, I, you know, I. Look, I've talked to thousands of women, and when you're going into this and trying to figure out the symptoms, there's only so many things you can tackle at the same time. You know, you're tackling symptoms, you're tacking not feeling, not feeling right, not sleeping, maybe weight gain. And then you've got this type of relationship going on here. So they've got to handle one thing at a time. So how can you create some type of boundaries, Boundaries around that? Is there a way.
- [39:42]
Tamsen Fadal
I don't even know if I'd use the word boundaries. I think the key is to understand the narcissistic person's ground game. Okay, Right. You and they are not having the same relationship. The relationship for a narcissistic person is supply. It's convenience. It's what works for them. They expect you to read their minds. They expect you to be what they want when they want. Right. You're like a little AI creature that they want to sort of modify with them. You. You are in a relationship with someone you hope would be a partner that you want respect and connection and warmth and empathy and all that. So you're not having the same relationship. I would say the most important thing that people have to remember at any phase of life. Absolutely. But I think especially people who are in these relationships in midlife or starting or new in these relationships in midlife do not isolate the power of the narcissistic relationship happens when they're not. When the person in the relationship is not. Not hearing other voices. And by other voices, I mean people who are like, you're great. You look wonderful. Talk to me about what's going on. Oh, all this menopausal stuff, I'm going through it, too. Because the more validation we have that the stuff, like, the stuff we're going through, our thoughts, our experiences matter, then we don't feel crazy. But if there are no dissenting voice, all you hear is the narcissistic person's version of reality. It's like having only one polarizing new show on all the time. You really are going to think, like, that's the only reality there is. Right. But that's. And that's what it is. I always say, like, being in a narcissistic relationship is having a crazy podcast played on repeat all the time in your house, and it never turns off. So having those other voices. And we know there's great research that shows that the reason. There's a lot of reasons women live longer, hormonal reasons, all this other stuff, cardiovascular reasons, sure. But from a psychological perspective, something that really benefits women's lives in the long term is they're really good at making relationships, and friendships and socialization allow women to live longer. If nothing else, it gives them skin in the game. There are people you look forward to seeing. Like, it's funny, the things that make us kind of keep going longer. Right. Men are not as good at that. Men are terrible at making friendships relative to women. In fact, there was one. The New York Times had an article years ago. They called it the colonoscopy test. And they asked men, how many. If you didn't. If you don't have a partner, how many people you have that would come pick you up from a colonoscopy? And the men were, like, scratching the barrel on one or two. And the women are all like, I got nine people I could call to bring me home for my colonoscopy. Right. It's that one thing that everyone's got to do when they're 50. Right. Men are not good at this. And in fact, all the research shows marriage is better for men's health than.
- [42:25]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Women'S health because they've got somebody there.
- [42:27]
Tamsen Fadal
Begot someone there, and the men sort of poach off of the social network that the women have created. The friends, the couples, the social, all of it. That's usually the woman's work in the relationship. And I'm using a heterogeneity perspective here, but that is something that. It's almost like the well runs over and the men are benefiting if the relationship ends. Men are not good at creating that for themselves. Women actually continue to maintain that. But if a woman, midlife, any part of life, enters a narcissistic relationship, the risk of isolation goes way up. So you no longer get those health benefits. So I say to everyone, please, try not to isolate. But people feel shame around being in a relationship. Like, this person treats me terrible. I don't want to talk badly about my partner with all these people. What if I stay in it? Now I'm the one who looks foolish. That's the conversation people are having in their head.
- [43:20]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
How hard is it to help somebody get out of a. If somebody is saying, okay, I'm. I'm in a narcissist, I'm listening to this, I hear it, I know it. How difficult. Where do you. Where do you start that process of getting out of it?
- [43:34]
Tamsen Fadal
I actually tell people getting out is not the only path forward, because I think if we treat that as the only path forward, people who don't see a path out won't seek help.
- [43:42]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay?
- [43:43]
Tamsen Fadal
So I tell folks, unless there's physical violence, and that's a different conversation, let's lift that out. Out. Just, I hate to say, just if there's psychological violence that's standard in these relationships, but I say to folks, there's no agenda here. Whether you staying in it, not staying in it, I want to allow you to not get lost in it anymore. That this relationship does not define you. This false, twisted, distorted narrative they've created about you, you being crazy, you being demanding, you being needy, you being extra, it's not true. It allows them to retain dominance in the relationship. You know it's not true. And you live your life trying to prove it's not true. And the way you do that is you give up on yourself. I don't need anything. I don't need. I. I can do this all my own.
- [44:29]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I.
- [44:29]
Tamsen Fadal
It's okay. And that, that, that's. That kind of. That's what happens to people in these relationships. So it's helping people find themselves. Now, frankly, Tamsin, many times what ends up happening is as people do, that they may end up finding their way out, but maybe not for another 10 years. But there's a lot of reasons people stay in these relationships. And coming back to your. All the points we've been talking about in midlife, one of them is money. If somebody has left the workplace for A long time they did not accumulate. Like this is one thing that I classically see in these relationships is somebody said, okay, I actually left a career. I focused on our kids, I focused on our family and our household and, and I. And his career soared as a result. I mean, listen, honey, if I had someone making my beds, cooking my meals and raising my kids, I would be the president of something. I can tell you that right now.
- [45:21]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
A lot more time.
- [45:22]
Tamsen Fadal
So again, I'm using a very traditional gender format here. But that partner's career will have soared. He's narcissistic. I can promise you this too. He was shady with the money, you'd.
- [45:32]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Sign those taxes, where's the money?
- [45:34]
Tamsen Fadal
Where's the money? Right? And the number of women who said, you know, it's not like I was dumb about money, I was even working in the business sector, but I stepped out of it for a while doing work that was extraordinarily important by the way, raising a family, running a house that is a beyond full time job. And then they said, I, and they said, I know everything about money, I'm going to make this money grow. And they would make the money grow, right. And so this belief that I don't know about money, he knows about money. And then when it comes to showtime, all of a sudden it's a forensic accounting nightmare. And so that's in people who actually have resources. Some people get to midlife and there isn't a lot of money. We are in financially trying times. And so some people will say this happens in LA all the time. I'm sure it happens in New York. The LA real estate market went way up. So even if that asset, primary asset people have is a house and that house was sold, what those two people are going to get out of it ain't going to buy a new one and no one could buy the other one out. So they're often looking into a future of, of I've been have to move out of an area I've lived in for a really long time, or maybe where my adult kids are, my doctors, my community, things that are familiar to me, even a job that's familiar and the quality of life could really plummet. Social Security benefits weren't accumulated at the same rate. So they may be looking into a life of real financial peril. In fact, we know that women in midlife who have left long relationships or are single are often those in the most sometimes financially precarious positions. And so you have these other kinds of issues operating in terms of I Can't afford to leave this. I can't tell you how many people have said to me, we are living in this house. Each one is waiting for the other to die so the other one can have the house. And I don't. And I'm not. That's not a joke, like. And it's not that either. These people aren't murderous.
- [47:23]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I believe that.
- [47:23]
Tamsen Fadal
But they're saying this. There's no way.
- [47:25]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
We're just toughing it out.
- [47:26]
Tamsen Fadal
We're toughing it out.
- [47:27]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You try to teach people to bloom out of the relationship. If they've played small, you're trying to make them get bigger. That's the best thing that you can do inside of one of those flowers.
- [47:35]
Tamsen Fadal
Can grow out of pavement, right?
- [47:37]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
You know, and then who knows? A narcissist might not stay around if they see somebody like that.
- [47:41]
Tamsen Fadal
If you disengage that. And so you're asking, what are the things people can do? What are the boundaries you can draw around it? Radical acceptance. Narcissistic people don't really change. And they sure as hell don't change when they're in their 50s and 60s.
- [47:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And 70s, do they ever change?
- [47:55]
Tamsen Fadal
Listen, are there unicorns? Sure, there's unicorns, right? This is not the unicorn show. This is. See what happens to most people's show, right? And so what happens to most people is it doesn't change. And it actually gets sometimes a little bit. When I say worse with age, I think some of the stubbornness, especially as a narcissistic person, is losing some of their power in the world. They're getting older and all the things, right? So it's not going to change. Stop engaging with it like it will. Like people, like, I want them to know. I'm like, they're not listening to you. They haven't listened to you in 30 years. I don't know why you think they're going to start listening to you now. They're not going to listen to you. Write it down, tell me, talk to your friends. But they're not listening. And so disengaging from the relationship. And sometimes when people can. I always say, once you clear the junk drawer out, you can really see it clearly. So clear it out. And what you're going to start to see is like, there is no emotional there, there. However, whether it's money, whether it's, we can't afford this now, whether it's culture. Some people say, in my culture, we don't get divorced. I don't want to be the first member of my family to get get a divorce. That's okay. But don't I always say to folks, don't go to an empty well and think you're going to pull up water and this relationship's an empty well.
- [49:05]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Let's talk about the damage of a replacement partner when a narcissist replaced hey there. You know I love to talk about getting organized and spring cleaning. Both actually. But these days I'm talking about Bomba spring socks. I know you're thinking Tamson. What are you talking about? But here people out on this. It's a busy time of year and the right socks can make or break your spring. You know I'm all about being comfortable. Bombas makes the ultimate ain socks. Yeah. From actual spring cleaning to walking around the city to everything in between, Bombas took their socks Arch Hugging stamp cuff ultra cushion design very seriously. So you can take a load off. Bombas now offers international shipping too. In addition to the US they ship to over 200 countries countries. But here's my favorite part. Their mission and that is what makes them different from other brands. Bombas started making socks when they learned that they're the number one most requested clothing item in homeless shelters. So thank you for shopping with Bombas. You've helped donate over 150 million essential items. That is a lot of socks and a lot of kindness. Head over to bombus.comtamson and use code TAMSON for 20% off your first purchase. That's Bombas B O M B A S.comtamson code TAMSON at checkout okay, if I'm being honest, spring is really my time to reset routines and hellofresh is one of the easiest ways to do that while still eating well. I am so excited for my HelloFresh delivery to arrive. I was just scrolling before I jumped on here through their weekly menu and the the pecan crusted trout with roasted carrots and lemony couscous is calling my name. Especially on the nights when I need something fast. But I still want it to feel special. HelloFresh curates a new menu of chef design recipes every week along with over 100 seasonal snacks, sides and treats. So dinner never feels like a chore. And with our new ready made meals, I can have a chef crafted dish on the table in three minutes. Perfect for the day when life is packed, but I still want something healthy and satisfying. All their ingredients are high quality. Think fresh produce and protein straight from the farm to your doorstep. With flexible delivery, I can pause or skip a week anytime I need to If I'm traveling and it's made to fit your real life, not the other way around. Feel great with meals that fit your spring schedule and make the season even more delicious. Go to hellofresh.com tamson10fm now to get 10 free meals with a free item for life, one per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. This often happens in midlife. A younger partner for the current or older one. What does that do to somebody?
- [51:57]
Tamsen Fadal
So a lot of things, actually. I've talked about this on YouTube. I have actually a video called the Replacement Nurse Neurosis. A couple things happens. Some people have a core wound around this, right around feeling replaced. It might have even happened in their family of origin. Right? When you no longer did what the narcissistic parent wants, all of a sudden they're like, we have no use for you, but we're gonna focus on your other sibling. The idea of being replaced by another human being. I don't care who you are. It's a devastating feeling. No one's replaceable. But there's nothing like a narcissistic relationship to feel like you are grandiose. Narcissistic partners will very often already have their new person queued up. There's always that tiny bit like they are not jumping into the great unknown. They're going to make sure that they're covered and that they've kind of taken a test drive, and then, and only then will they take you down and trade you in. Right? And so there's often already that sense of betrayal that was there. So that's pretty common. And even if that's not the case, that there is actually a discernible break. And then a new person comes in. Narcissistic people will do this in a boundaryless, cruel, unempathic way. They will try to create the new family right away. They'll try to pull the children you had with them immediately into this new, like, sort of family, you know, version two kind of thing. They will. They'll have it all over social media way too quickly. It'll be uncomfortable. Now, is it always a younger partner? It's not always a younger partner. It can be, but what the new partner will have. It'll often feel like they're bringing something new to the table. It could be youth. It is often youth. Sometimes it's money. There's a real griftery feel to narcissistic people who date, especially men. Later on, they'll find someone who's got Money, who's got stuff, who's got status, who's got whatever. So it could be those things. So may not necessarily be that this person. Person is younger, but they're. Maybe they. They made. They got a lot of money from a former divorce or a career or something, or an inheritance. Sigma.
- [53:57]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
We're talking about better than thing, whatever that.
- [53:59]
Tamsen Fadal
Better than thing, whatever that is at home. Whatever the status thing is. So for the person who has been either left for or they've gotten a divorce and then it's down the road that this happens, it can very much feel like a whole new life has come out. And many people will report not only the sense of betrayal if it was in fact an overlap, but also watching friends kind of divide their loyalties. And people will say, am I being irrational that I am mad that my friend went to their new house for dinner after that my friend knows that my partner was psychologically cruel. I said, no, it's not irrational. And I think everybody feels like they have to be. I always say it's the cool girl phenomenon. I just have to be cool.
- [54:48]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
No, you don't.
- [54:49]
Tamsen Fadal
Being mad. This is why we have dart boards that you could put people's faces on. You know, and so it's a. Be mad that that's a human, human emotion and lean into the anger. Because like all emotions are like clouds going by in the sky. A new one will come along, and sometimes that anger turns into laughter, whatever that is. My favorite is somebody once made a cake with the photo of the ex partner. But you know what you have to do? You have to cut into the cake, then you get to eat it. Like there's all of these metaphors there. Right. So find whatever way be angry first. Because it's. It's the anger of grief.
- [55:30]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- [55:31]
Tamsen Fadal
And that sense of being replaced, which is such. Such a cultural trope.
- [55:35]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Sure it is.
- [55:36]
Tamsen Fadal
Right. That now this young person has come along and da da, da, da, da, or whatever this person is.
- [55:40]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I mean, every movie's made of it.
- [55:41]
Tamsen Fadal
So every. Because it just speaks to how universal a fear it is. This new person is having the same relationship as you, but they may be consuming it differently. It could very well be that your ex partner has money. And that's very interesting to this new person. And that is that you know what the psychology of this person is that's still going to show up up there. That transaction works for the new person. It didn't work for you.
- [56:05]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's always so hard to see and to convince somebody that you love so you have to things going on, you have to agree. But couples therapy does couple. I don't even need to finish the question. If you have a narcissistic partner, is couples therapy a waste of time?
- [56:20]
Tamsen Fadal
I'm not going to again, I have to be a therapist and say wise things. You know, I wouldn't quite say it's a, it's always a bad thing. You better, better, better do research into this couples therapist because there are far too many couples therapists or people using models of couples therapy that simply do not work when there's a narcissistic partner in the room. And Tamsin, the reason I think this gets me so angry is in the last 20 years, the number of clients who I will say frankly, frankly were almost traumatized by having to sit through months, even years of couples therapy where they were being told nonsense like show gratitude, have date nights, communicate, let's see what your role is in this. I felt like I was deprogramming them from a cult because that may apply when you have two not narcissistic people in a relationship. Listen, relationships need tune ups. I agree with that. But the vast majority of couples therapy is not what I call and it's a model I've developed called antagonism informed, meaning it's not informed by the messed up stuff that happens when you have a narcissistic partner. And it's a whole different set of rules and this idea of 50, 50 and everyone needs to be accountable. How are you supposed to be accountable for someone else gaslighting you and stealing your reality? And so what I've seen people do is if any anything, they already were feeling so responsible for what was happening in the relationship. And then they go through this and they'll sometimes see the narcissistic partner who is so charming and so charismatic, winning over the therapist who now is looking at the other person in the room who often looks broken. The other person looks devastated, they look wrung out, they look hyper vigilant. They're on the edge of their seat. They kind of look a little worked up. So that couple's therapist will often and say, I can, I get it. Look at her, she's kind of, she's.
- [58:23]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
So like, you were in my therapy session, you know. And yes, this is exactly what happened. I would sit there and I remember I was, I had boots on and I was swinging my boots. And he was so charming to the therapist. And the therapist was like, Tamsin, do you not seeing what's happening? And I'm like, are you not seeing what's happening. And it's really. It's only now, 10 years later that I can look back and go, wow, like that. That actually happened. Because you think, you know, when you're sitting there in an office that everyone's gonna see everything that's going on behind the scenes. But a narcissist is.
- [58:52]
Tamsen Fadal
We would hope. But no, it doesn't, because it's. And again, in many ways, this is a fault of how people who do couples therapy are trained. They're not trained to. It's all like, we don't talk about narcissism and couples therapy. That's the new term in vogue. That's a fad. The hell it's a fad. It's not a fad. It's very real. And, you know, I've had people say. Because the common fallout for a person who goes through a long term narcissistic marriage is they get anxious. They're often anxious. I'm saying the wrong thing. So there's a edginess. Right. And so I've had couples therapists say to the anxious partner, because they're in this relationship, saying, well, have you ever wondered. It's because you're always anxious and you're always on edge, that that's what's really creating these angry reactions. And I'll tell the client, you were in a cult. We're just. We're decultifying you.
- [59:44]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
They have to feel so good when they come and hear that.
- [59:46]
Tamsen Fadal
The couples there.
- [59:48]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I feel good sitting there. I feel good being deprogrammed after 10 years. All right. I want to do something with you, if we can. Do you mind?
- [59:56]
Tamsen Fadal
Oh, not at all.
- [59:57]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Let's do it. This is going to be a little bit different because usually we're doing like viewers questions and stuff, but we're going to call this. Is he a narcissist or just a jerk?
- [60:06]
Tamsen Fadal
Yeah. Okay.
- [60:08]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Do you already know the answer?
- [60:09]
Tamsen Fadal
I don't know. We'll see.
- [60:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay. Because it is. It can be hard to tell, maybe. Right? Especially I don't know, dating. Dating in the city is hard.
- [60:17]
Tamsen Fadal
Oh, yeah.
- [60:18]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay, first scenario. Is he a narcissist or just a jerk? A few months ago, into dating, he completely forgot my birthday. Didn't call or text when I brought it up, he said, I'm just not good with dates. You know that. Narcissist or just a jerk.
- [60:30]
Tamsen Fadal
Might just be a jerk. I'd need more information.
- [60:32]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay. What do they say about it?
- [60:34]
Tamsen Fadal
I would say, did he say I'm not Good at dates. And I am so sorry that I missed this. I really can. I want to make this up to you. Can we do something special? But takes accountability that this was hurtful to her. I'm still going to give him a jerk if he says, what are you, six? And your birthday matters to you? Narcissist.
- [60:54]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay. Oh, good. Okay, I got that. I like that. I see the difference between those two. All right. Every time I tried to talk about how I felt, he'd say I was overreacting or being too emotional. Once even said to me, this is why no one can talk to you. Narcissist or just a jerk.
- [61:07]
Tamsen Fadal
We're definitely in the narcissistic neighborhood there. Because that's very gaslighty.
- [61:10]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah.
- [61:11]
Tamsen Fadal
Now, again, one incident does not a narcissist make. If that's. If all the other times this person was a sweetie pie and came out with this once, like the day he got fired, maybe not maybe still just a jerk. But if this is something that's happening repeatedly, I'm saying we're definitely on the narcissism highway.
- [61:26]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I told him I got a promotion at work, and he barely said anything. Later that night, he made some comment like, well, don't get too full of yourself. Narcissist or just a jerk?
- [61:35]
Tamsen Fadal
I'm going to say jerk.
- [61:36]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Okay.
- [61:37]
Tamsen Fadal
Because I would want. Again, you're seeing where I'm going with this is, like, how repeated this is. But if this has been a lot of ickiness and then the. The promotion thing happens and then it's. That's not a big deal. It's definitely. If this is consistent with other patterns that could be in the narcissism realm. Remember, narcissistic people are super competitive in relationships, and they're very insecure. So if you're coming up and something's happening for your promotion, more money, a title, different kinds of people you're going to be interacting with. Believe it or not, for all of their bluff and bravado, narcissistic people are not only really insecure, they're really afraid of abandonment.
- [62:14]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yeah, they're scared to death of hearing that.
- [62:16]
Tamsen Fadal
They're scared to death scare some of.
- [62:19]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Other viewpoints of community. That's why I think community is so important during this time. I didn't understand what it was until I got into this phase of life. Actually, I understood it, but not really. And I didn't feel it. Anytime I brought up something that upset me, he'd say, is it menopause again? And then laugh. It off like it was a joke again.
- [62:36]
Tamsen Fadal
It's definitely veering into narcissism territory. If it happens repeatedly, if it's everything else in the relationship is warm and then this is sort of like a kind of an edgy ribbing, I think it's still jerk, but it really comes down to what the other stuff happening in the relationship is. But if these, these kinds of digs around, it could be anything. It could be weight gain, it could be menopause, it could be any of those things. And that's consistently used. And like I said, I'd lean more into the narcissism thing.
- [63:03]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I gotta have you back here. We're gonna do this and then we've, and then we're, we could just do this all the time. But I really think that people are gonna have so many questions. So I hope that I can grab you back here.
- [63:13]
Tamsen Fadal
Absolutely.
- [63:14]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Give you one more. I just asked for a little space, just, just a night to myself. And he said, wow, I guess I don't matter to you at all. And he gave me silent treatment for a few days. Narcissist or jerk?
- [63:22]
Tamsen Fadal
All of these people are jerks, by the way. Let's just take a universal jerk statement. The thing that said, that's, that's definitely a, that's actually something a vulnerable narcissist would say. Again, that's that little bit of rejection. I just need some time to myself, that little bit of abandonment kind of thing. And instead of saying, ah, this is hard for me, I love you. I, I, it's, I just, I'm sorry to you that sometimes it's just hard or I have my own wounds around, you know, abandonment. But I understand you need time to yourself. That's what a healthy person says. Of course, even if they have abandonment issues. You can be healthy and have abandonment issues. But in this case, making it into a weapon. Right. You're a bad person because of your need. That's very much a narcissistic thing. One statement does not a narcissistic person make. If this is the only time somebody said something like this, I'm not going to say they're narcissistic. But if this is sort of part of a pattern. Yeah, very likely.
- [64:12]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
If there's one thing that everyone listening should take away from this, to set themselves up for success in relationships in midlife, is there one core piece of advice you could give them?
- [64:23]
Tamsen Fadal
Build up your support network? You know, I, I, I call them anti gaslighting spaces. Because when people know you and, and you feel psychologically safe with them. Because that's what this is. Narcissistic relationships are psychologically unsafe. You're not protected in them. Right. I think in midlife you're body is changing. Our bodies are also kind of deteriorating. I was telling you, I gotta have cataract surgery. I gotta have hip replacement surgery. I mean, I'm like a old house that's being remodeled at this point. Right. But at those times.
- [64:52]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
But it's gonna be beautiful.
- [64:53]
Tamsen Fadal
It's gonna be.
- [64:54]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
It's gonna be. It's gonna feel good.
- [64:56]
Tamsen Fadal
I hope the remodel works, darlin's. We'll see what happens. But we wanna be protected at those times and don't wanna feel that someone is gonna use this against us.
- [65:06]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Of course, of course. Okay. Where can people find your work?
- [65:09]
Tamsen Fadal
You can find me all kinds of places. You can go to my website and there you can find out more about our YouTube channel. We post new videos every day. You can find me at the Dr. Ramany Network. Every week we have a new interactive show which is great to get questions answered. We also have a wonderful healing program for people who are healing from narcissistic relationships. Every month, a new topic. You can check out all my books, including my most recent ones.
- [65:34]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Yes, we're gonna talk about this.
- [65:35]
Tamsen Fadal
It's not you. And so go to my website. It's all there. Follow us on all our socials, join our community. There's so many places to get information.
- [65:43]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
And help Dr. Ramani. Thank you so much.
- [65:45]
Tamsen Fadal
Thank you.
- [65:46]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
I can't wait till the next time. That's what I'm going to say. I'm not going to say goodbye. I'm going to say till the next time.
- [65:50]
Tamsen Fadal
I can't wait.
- [65:51]
Dr. Ramani Durvasula
A huge thank you for Dr. Ramani, for shining such a clear light on a topic that is way too often misunderstood or dismissed. It was mind blowing to hear why women in midlife are most vulnerable to narcissistic abuse. My one ask of you, if anything, please never let anyone gaslight you into thinking you're crazy because you're in middle menopause. I hope this episode has taught you to trust yourself and to know it's never too late to seek help. If you're feeling trapped or you need to leave, please, please reach out with any questions or stories@podcastamsonfadell.com and always let me know what conversations you're looking forward to. And remember, no topic is off the table. Until next time. The Tamson show is an original production by Authentic Wave executive producers Scott Weinberger. Kevin Bennett and Rebecca Grierson. Brand director Johanna Ofznik. Our line producer is Sabrina Sarre. Editing by Zach Smith and Marquis Harri.