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- [00:02]
Tara Palmeri
Welcome to the Tara Palmieri Show. First, I want to start by commenting on the latest news. Glenn Maxwell will be moved from her federal prison in Florida to a minimum security camp in Texas. Obviously, reeks of cooperation, but just how much is Glenn Maxwell getting this sort of light treatment, this ability to live in a place that's basically fenceless, where people have great, great visitation rights, where people that have good behavior serve because she's willing to tell a story that works for the President of the United States, who does not want the entire Epstein files out there. The full case revealed. This is after she spoke with Todd Blanche. This suggests that soon she'll be getting a pardon. As you know, President Trump has said, I can give her a pardon if I want to, but she hasn't asked for one. That's not true. Her family has asked for one. You. He's also said that he's not sure if Todd Blanche will tell people exactly what his conversations were with Ghislaine Maxwell. And here's why. Because he's worried about innocent people. Take a listen to this quote here.
- [01:06]
Terry Moran
Todd went in and I think he just wants to make sure that innocent people aren't hurt.
- [01:11]
Tara Palmeri
Who are the innocent people in this? Is it the Johns that President Trump is worried about, or is it the victims? Because they haven't gotten a call from the Department of Justice, at least not Andy Farmer. She. She hasn't gotten a call asking for her cooperation in helping with the case. I mean, these girls, they know how to keep the case going. They know how to bring justice. But, no, it's Galen Maxwell that they're taking seriously right now. The woman whose crimes she knew were so severe that she was hiding in a mansion in New Hampshire when they found her. When the FBI raided her home, it was called tucked away, by the way, and she had tin foil on her phone. I know this is not an innocent person, people. This is not a woman who thought she was going to get out of prison before the end of her life, but she got 20 years and now she's going to a minimum security prison, a place where Elizabeth Holmes is, by the way. Elizabeth Holmes is set to get out in 2032. Okay. Her family has long complained about her conditions in prison. When she was in the downtown Brooklyn prison, I once, I used to walk by it, actually, and I almost felt her energy. I was working on a podcast about her family, about her life, called Power the Maxwells. And I used to think, oh, my God, this woman is on the other side of the wall. And I am Digging deep into her story. It was really creepy. But yeah, her family complained about it the whole time and you could imagine why. I mean she had been living the high life her entire time. Her life, I mean living in million dollar townhouses. To go from a multi million dollar town home in the Upper east side to a prison in Brooklyn is pretty rough, I'm sure for her. But yeah, this has always been Glenn's Maxwell's problem. The conditions. So what is happening right now? Is Glenn Maxwell going to be free soon? Because if that's the way this story ends, it just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right for me and it doesn't. And it shouldn't feel right for you. That's not how this is supposed to end. With Glenn free and Virginia dead and the many, many men, okay. The co conspirators, the people out there that were part of the largest sex trafficking operation probably of our time out there. Free, case closed. It's not closed. And that's why I'm going to continue to pursue this story. And I will keep reminding the audience that it was Maxwell who went out looking for new biles every day as she called them underage girls to satisfy Jeffrey Epstein's needs for three orgasms per day. And then she called these girls trash to her friends. Right? They are nothing. They are trash. That's how she described them according to her acquaintance Christina Oxenberg. And then she molested them, taking off their clothes first with Jeffrey Epstein. This is not the way it's supposed to be. I've often thought about how I ended up covering the Epstein story. And I'll be honest with you, I didn't seek it out. It came to me. And you'll hear that in my conversation with Terry Moran of ABC News. He was my former colleague. I left the network as a White House correspondent. Who does that? I know, right? Sounds crazy. I did it for some reason. It just didn't feel right. I. I didn't fit in. I felt lost. I just wanted to break news. I felt unmoored. But part of the deal was if you leave early, you have a non compete, you can't go to another network. And I talked to other networks and it just didn't work. It. There was no one really willing to wait. It didn't work out. So I wasn't going to go on from one network to the next. I wasn't going to stay in network news. And where else does one go? And there really wasn't an independent media movement at the time. So I Didn't even think of that as an option. So I just started traveling. I got a laptop and I started writing and I tried to think about my life. I was like, what am I doing here at 33 years old? Did I just throw a grenade into my life? For what? And it brought me to Joshua Tree in California. I had never been there before, but I heard that there is really good energy there. They have this integratron and people go there to do yoga and retreat. And I love to hike. I love the desert. I always call myself the Desert Queen. I know that sounds a little weird. So I rented a hotel and I liked it so much that I got a house and I stayed there. And I stayed there for probably a week. And I hiked and I hiked and I made fires at night and I wrote and I looked up at the stars and I was like, what am I doing here? What is my purpose in life? Please give me some direction. If network news isn't for me, what is? And then I got a call from Adam Davidson and Laura Mayer and it really changed everything for me. They asked me if I wanted to do a story about Jeffrey Epstein. And I'll be honest with you, I didn't say yes right away. I needed some time to think about it because it was a dark story. There's a story about power and corruption, and I love those stories. That's why I became a journalist in the first place, believing that power needs to be held to account, to make sure that our leaders take care of us, that they do the right thing. And this story was all of that, but it was also dark. I mean, it was about children and rape and two tier justice. An unfinished business, really, and, and mystery. He had just died in a prison. He killed himself. And I didn't know if I wanted to live in that space for that long. I didn't. You know, the. The project was probably going to be at least a year, maybe less, I don't know. But it just felt like I wasn't sure if my. If I was ready to do that, if I was ready to go to places in my own life and, and what it would bring back. It would be really hard to just kind of create a wall in this type of story. So I hiked and I thought about it and I was like, yeah, this is, this is the story of our time. I'll do it. I'm in. And I called them up and I said, I just really want to make sure that this is about the survivors. I want to make sure it's told through their eyes. And that's exactly how they thought about it. We were going to try to fill in the holes, solve the mystery, and, and we were going to do it through their stories because they knew everyone. They knew the witnesses, the chefs, the chauffeurs, the bodyguards, the pilots, they knew the men, they knew everything. And we just had to try to find people to help us solve the story. So I was going to travel around the country with Virginia, Robert Giuffre and Marika Chartooni, and we were gonna fill in the holes. And so many doors were slammed in our faces. So many, so many, so many, so many phone calls end with a click. And it was incredibly frustrating. And there were just, there was so much darkness. I didn't see light. I was ashamed of so many of these people that we talked to. Some of them actually did speak and, and Virginia was just so happy for them to recognize her, to know her, to see her. And I thought to myself, you were a man who chauffeured children from their homes to Jeffrey Epstein's, claiming he didn't know what was happening with those children in the house when you clean the sheets afterwards and the sex toys. But Virginia was just so happy that he let her into our house. This is Epstein's houseman. And he let her talk to him. I mean, I did not see angels, better angels anywhere. And Virginia saw light. Even with sliver of light, she saw light. And I really admired that in her. I went after her and I, I tried to figure out how this insane non prosecution agreement could happen. This 2008 sweetheart deal where Jeffrey Epstein could go from a recommendation of 60 federal crimes to zero, how he could get a slap on the wrist. Sex crimes in a, in a state case. What was it? And the prosecutors I spoke to, they told me to call their lawyers, their colleagues, they said this is just how it happens. Rich people, different, different, they get treated differently. This is reality. And it just, it killed me. And I wanted to understand more. And really the more I saw it, the more I really, the more I saw it up close, I saw how much power, politics, wealth, it really, it really creates a two tier justice system. And it was just so, it was just so incredibly depressing and sad. And I read through the files, the files that are on the FBI's vault's website about Epstein. If you go and read them, it'll take you weeks and it will not make you feel good about yourself. And that's why I know this case isn't over. And that's why I know that those redactions, those redactions that men fought for so that you wouldn't see their names, that we need to know why. We need to know why they fought so hard. So. Because I believe this is not where the story ends. This is not with case closed. I'm going to keep working on this for you, for Virginia, for all the people who know that this is not over yet. Take a listen to my interview, though, with Terry Moran. He's a legend of a journalist and a mensch who always had my back at ABC and afterwards when I was trying to figure out MY. My way. And I hope you'll appreciate it and thank you again for joining the channel.
- [10:59]
Terry Moran
My friend and former booth mate. Right.
- [11:04]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. Go back to abc. Obviously, Terry is a legend. I had a maybe three year tenure there, but I gave it, I gave it a whirl. I gave network news a chance coming from as being a scrappy print reporter and chewed me up and spat me out.
- [11:22]
Terry Moran
No, I. ABC was so dumb. Think I told you this at the time. So the background is, Terry, you came to ABC what, what, 20, what, 2018.
- [11:34]
Tara Palmeri
27. 2016. No, 2017, after Trump won. And I was covering the White House as a White House correspondent for Politico.
- [11:42]
Terry Moran
Yeah, right, right. Well, okay. So I remember. So the first time I ever heard of Tara Palmer, one of the great reporters I know. For real. For real. And I have thought this since long before we ever met.
- [11:55]
Tara Palmeri
Oh, thank you.
- [11:56]
Terry Moran
Because I was living in London, I was a foreign correspondent in London. And I was trying, and I was trying to get a handle on all things, you know, overseas. Now, not that ABC News would ever have covered it, but I got curious about the eu. I actually ended up doing something in the EU the most that, that will instantly put people to sleep. But I came across a Politico newsletter, the letter from Brussels or whatever it.
- [12:24]
Tara Palmeri
Was that you Playbook Brussels.
- [12:26]
Terry Moran
Playbook. Playbook Brussels.
- [12:28]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah.
- [12:28]
Terry Moran
And I was like. And I found myself every day, and not just because I'm a nerd, reading with interest and laughter. Your Tara Palmeiras reports on Brussels because you were covering Brussels at that time. And I thought, how is this person. I had no idea who you were. How is she making it so interesting? How is she making it like, like I'm reading. Like I'm reading, I don't know, a really good city reporter in Chicago or New York who's kind of wired the place and knows who everybody is, what the power plays are. And all the rest of was really Impressive. And then I met you. Do you remember where we first met? This is going to be embarrassing.
- [13:12]
Tara Palmeri
Oh, God. Did we meet in London covering Brexit?
- [13:16]
Terry Moran
No, no, worse. We met in Davos.
- [13:22]
Tara Palmeri
Oh, my God, you're right. I was there for Politico Europe.
- [13:26]
Terry Moran
And I was there. I was there for abc. I think they sent me there because Trump was there. So. And we bumped into Anthony Scaramucci at the time. It was all. At any rate, then I got back to.
- [13:42]
Tara Palmeri
They brought you back to the US Shortly after that. Yeah, right.
- [13:45]
Terry Moran
And you were there in the White House booth. And I recognized that the same skills and the same energy that you. That you brought and creativity that you brought to covering Brussels and the eu, which nothing could be more boring, you were bringing to the Trump White House and adding real value. Adding real. I learned a lot from you. And Avinson couldn't make it happen for you. And that's their loss.
- [14:12]
Tara Palmeri
That's okay. You know what? I actually learned a lot. I feel like I learned the skills that you have always had, which is being able to tell a story, a really good story in a broadcast way, which I didn't have that ability. And it's in no way should be diminished because, I mean, if you can tell a great story and you can make people feel things through that medium, I mean, it applies to what we're doing right now. It applies. I wouldn't be here, able to do a live with you if I wasn't. If I didn't learn those skills from ABC or podcasting, which I ended up going into. And frankly, it set me up for what I ended up doing next, which I still find to be the most important work of my career, which was really investigating that Epstein story. And so I, as much as I joke that, oh, ABC chewed me up, it was like, I really learned a lot there. I mean, they invested in me to be able to get in front of the camera and to be able to present my reporting in that way. Because before that, I mean, yes, I could write stories, and I was wired in. And I was a good, like, kind of. I knew how to make a story sexy and sell it. I'd worked at the New York Post. I mean, that's where I learned how to be. That was where I was a cub reporter. That's when I met Donald Trump At 21, I was a Page Six reporter. And, you know, so I knew how to work. I was a crime reporter there. I covered the, you know, I was all City hall. I did all that stuff. But you know, to take it to that next level where you can really meet, like, match, meet an entire mass audience and, like, captivate them through broadcast skills. And, I mean, that was something, and it was a great place to learn it. And I learned it through pros like you, watching you and learning from you. And I actually always found part of what I was going to say is that seeing this evolution, and I know it must have been really traumatic for you, what happened. I doubt you can comment on it because I know how it is with the network, but that's what got me in trouble.
- [16:02]
Terry Moran
I'll speak my mind regardless. But, yeah, it was a shock, but I'm fine.
- [16:06]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, as traumatic as it may have been for you, I do think it was ultimately a better place because where you are right now, because I even remember getting your notes, you. Because ABC to me was always. There was a shot. I always thought it was so shocking that people could just send their notes and reporting and ideas, like, wide to an entire network of, like, thousand people. Because when we worked in as print reporters, we wanted to keep everything to ourselves, and we would, like, trust maybe, like, the small cabal of people around us, but we didn't want to really share too much because that was sort of our currency in the newsroom. And it was kind of like, it's just a different operation. It was very much a culture shock for me. But I always thought that, like, you always were the first to respond with, like, really insightful and analytical, you know, pieces. It was like, prose. They were like, almost. I mean, it was reporting, but it felt almost essay, like. And it felt like it was way too elevated for the chain it was on. I always felt that I was like, this is way too elevated. And I'm like, sources tell me that Trump did this. He. You know what I mean? And it was like. And then you were coming in there being, like, actually offering context from having, you know, covered Washington for decades internationally. And I was like. And I'm thinking to myself, like, it's just such a mix here at ABC News between, you know, the. The producers, the ground, you know, the field producers, the interns, the assistants, the kind of scrappy, like, you know, correspondent reporters, the seasoned journalists like yourself, the anchors. And then, yeah, your. Your stuff always really just stuck out to me. And now what you were doing then, I really feel like this is the perfect place for you at Substack because you are essentially sending out that newsletter that you would have. The kind of. Was lost there, in a way, in that space outdoors.
- [17:59]
Terry Moran
It is one of the. Well, look, I mean, a lot of people didn't like it. It really is one of the regrets I have that I wasn't able to like bring all those sent to the whole news division emails that I, although I will say this, I didn't read the press around my firing is like, A, I was busy, B, I didn't think it would be good for me and it wasn't. But somebody told me. Or maybe I saw it, may I saw it and I wasn't. I certainly wasn't looking at Twitter X whatever it is. But for some reason I heard that the New York Post year old home quoted someone at ABC News who said, well, Terry's always had a very high opinion of his own opinions, which I thought A, was pretty good, pretty funny, and B, fair comment. And C, I think I knew who it was. But that said, now I don't have to like plague my colleagues in, clog up the emails. I can actually just put it out.
- [18:55]
Tara Palmeri
I found it to be really useful because I didn't, you know, I, for someone like me having just come from, you know, from Brussels and truly I was like 30 years old at the time and I didn't have that kind of experience. You know, everybody comes with their own. Like, you can't discount that. You can't discount the years spent of being able to place a moment in time. And everything was so unprecedented with Trump. But like, it was all moving so quick and so fast. It's like. And chasing scoops and tips almost felt stupid, like, because at the end of the day it was lost. Like, people asked me, like, what were some of the biggest stories you broke? And I could tell you, and they probably were really, you know, one of them really moved markets. So I'll never forget that when I broke that, he had an executive order that was. He was about to look at to remove himself from nafta. But then they did it and it only dropped markets for like a minute. And that's what that entire presidency felt like. It just, it just moved so quickly. It was like whiplash. I don't even remember it and I still feel like that right now. So it was sort of even more so. Yeah, it was like a meditation in the middle of like some psychotic moment.
- [20:06]
Terry Moran
Well, I gotta tell, I would say the difference between Trump 1 and Trump 2, obviously he's unbridled, unbounded by more traditional people around him. There was Mattis, there was Tillerson, there were all kinds of normal people around him. He now has pure loyalists. And while it was Coming at us very fast. And Trump won. It was chaotic and kind of helter skelter. And this is obviously a Project 2025, carefully thought out, hugely aggressive, unprecedented in its expansion of what the personalized power the President might do throughout the government and the country plan that they are executing on. And you can feel that every day. And I think that's the point, right? To overwhelm people.
- [20:55]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, it is the point. And I do think a lot of the distraction that he's creating is to kind of like obfuscate everyone and make sure that we all look the other way while they're hatching these plans. Although I don't think that he has. I do agree with you that there is the Project 2025 plan, but I don't think he has the best people to actually execute it. And that's probably the only thing holding that back, truly, from being completely executed.
- [21:19]
Terry Moran
Well, Russell Vogt is a. Is a capable man. There's no question about it. He's. And he is kind of the general that it feels like. But I want to get. I want to get to the story that you have so recently excelled. Not just recently, but for a while, the Jeffrey Epstein case. I think you recognized as somebody who has both dug into the facts and processed them, internalized them. You tell the story in a very powerful way. And the first question I have is why? Why this story? I mean, you've been on it for years. Why?
- [21:53]
Tara Palmeri
Okay, so when I left abc, because I left early, like, I wasn't really able to do television for a little while. You know how that worked?
- [22:04]
Terry Moran
Well, they had those stupid non compete. Like. Like we have the rep. Like we have the recipe for Coke. The secret recipe for Coke.
- [22:11]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, yeah. So there was like a few months in between where I was like, I can't really do anything. And I was just processing my life. Like, I was like, what am I doing? I just left network news. I left a job. I was a White House correspondent. Granted, I was, which was, to me, something I never thought I would get on a network in my life. Like, that just wasn't something I thought I would get to that place. But I was the weekend person. And I sort of felt like I wasn't going anywhere. And there were so many big stories that I wanted to break and I had all these big dreams of, like, I just kept knocking and wanting to break things and I felt like I could never get anything done or reported. And I just felt like I was spinning in circles. Plus the whole kind of culture in that newsroom that was very difficult at that time. And it was just host hard. And I. And I was always. I always felt like a fish out of water. They're. That's not to say there aren't great people in there. There are. I made some of my best friends there, really, to this day, but it just wasn't right for me. And I'm like, what am I doing? I'm just like, I'm just throwing a grenade, you know, why did I do this? It was a good paying job. People don't walk away from that. And of course they were like, well, what happened? Was she fired kind of thing, you know, and it's like, no, it just didn't feel right, like. And so that's brave.
- [23:25]
Terry Moran
Can I just say that's brave.
- [23:28]
Tara Palmeri
I. I kind of take risks, I've realized in my career, but I. That one just felt. Sometimes things don't feel like a risk anymore when you're just so not happy. It just. The risk is staying longer. You know what I mean? Well, there.
- [23:40]
Terry Moran
There were people who knew me and. And thought I posted that tweet, whatever, about Stephen Miller on purpose, because I was looking to leave abc, and I might have, but I didn't do it on purpose. Anyway, go on.
- [23:55]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, you know, it worked out.
- [24:00]
Terry Moran
I don't know.
- [24:01]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. Sometimes the worst things that happen to you can be the best. I also believe that in some weird ways. But I. I just, you know, I was. I couldn't do anything. I start writing. I get a laptop, just like an extra laptop, and I just start writing. And I'm like, I'm just gonna start writing to see where it goes, and I start really thinking about my life, my life story and what's like, where I. Where I've been, where I've come from. Because the one thing that really came up for me once I got to that level was, like, class issues and, like, where I came from. And I always felt like I wasn't, like. I felt like the first thing they wanted to change about me was the way I spoke and the way I said my name and that.
- [24:36]
Terry Moran
I remember you telling me this too.
- [24:38]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah.
- [24:39]
Terry Moran
And I was shocked.
- [24:41]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. No, it was like. It was kind of, like, hard for me at 30 or so years old. And I was like, oh, I'm not really good enough the way I am. And it kind of brought me back to, like, well, who am I? And I kind of thought about my childhood a lot, and I thought about my family and the things that I've been through and just like, Just life. And you. You know, if you have a lot of time on your hands, this is the kind of stuff that goes through your head, right? And so you start, like, you know, thinking about that. So I start writing. And then I got a call one day, and it was from someone, and they were like, would you ever want to do some work on the Jeffrey Epstein story? And I'm like, whoa, that is really dark, and that is really powerful. Although I've always believed that, like, journalism is about holding powerful to account. And, I mean, if there's ever a story, it's that. But for me, it just felt, like, particularly dark. These girls are my age. Like, this was all that. When all this was happening, you know, I had been following it, the mystery around his death. At that point, he had already died. I was like, yeah, let me give it a think. I went out to California for a little bit because I had to waste time. And I got a house in, like, Joshua Tree and just, like, started hiking and, like, just writing and hanging out and all by myself. I was just like, I need time alone. I need to figure what the fuck out is going on with my life. Excuse my French. And so I go for a hike, I do some more writing, and I'm like. I called them back, and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna do it. It's scary. It's dark. It's like, I don't know where it's gonna lead. It might be triggering, to be honest. Like, I. The other night, I woke up in a hot panic, like a nightmare, imagining, like, Jeffrey Epstein and the trauma that these girls went through. Because, like, I really do internalize this story. Um, and, like, I talk a little bit about it in my podcast, too. Like, why it's so personally been typical for me, but it's. You know, if you actually, like, it's weird. We're kind of like rescue workers as journalists. Like, we're supposed to go into really traumatic situations and look at it like we're, like, doctors or. Or firefighters or, you know, EMTs, and just kind of, like, put up a wall. But it's hard to. Especially when you really hear the stories and you're really doing it. And I was like, I don't know if I can do that, especially with this story. And maybe that's why I've always stuck with politics, because I kind of see it as a bit of theater, even though it's serious theater and it matters. And they're powerful people, but they're also playing parts, and they're Playing these parts to try to get more power to, to create a policy that influences us, but kind of creates a little bit of separation. But this was really like something that was different for me. But yeah, I just, I called up Adam Davidson who, you know, probably from npr, he created Planet Money from the New Yorker. He was going to do the project with Adam McKay and Julie K. Brown, who is executive producer of this project. And as everyone knows, she reopened the case with her amazing reporting. And I drove to Adam McKay's offices in LA from there and I said, like, handshake, I'll do it. And part of the job was you're going to drive around with Virginia Roberts Giuffre and like, try to cooperate her story because, like, we're not going to do this based on just her single source because, you know, she's been so, like, maligned and so dragged through the mud since she started speaking back in 2011. Like, she was, you know, she's such a powerful person, this singular, you know, victim of sexual abuse that kept talking and speaking and speaking, speaking. But, like, you know, there's so many forces that have been trying to silence her. And so it was really important for me and for her and the justice that she really wanted for us to be able to find people who could like, really cooperate and like, or verify our story. And we used the same fact checking team that the New Yorker that they used for their Weinstein reporting. And it was really, it was really intense. And we found like recruiters, witnesses, new witness that really hadn't spoken before that they used in the case against Glenn the Houseman. And I felt really proud of that, that we had sort of like dug up some new people that they could use and, and we, we just like pounded pavement, did, you know, the reporting. And there were a lot of moments where I was like, what the hell am I doing? We keep having doors slammed in our face. We keep having people hanging up on us. She was more hopeful than I was. I was just like, this is a mess. Like, I would call the executive producer sometimes. I was like, I don't know. I'm like, I feel like I'm traumatized. I feel like she's must be feeling traumatized hearing no all the time. I'm feeling terrible. And you know, and they were, they were like. And. But she wanted to keep going. She was just so relentless. And I remember saying to her, I was like, I said, virginia, I don't know, I'm sorry. We're driving around in circles. Everybody's basically saying, no, And. Or not letting us in. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing here either. And she starts playing that song from Frozen. I guess her kids like it. Let it go. And she starts blasting it. And we're just like, so going down. I95. Let it go. Let it go. And I was like, oh, my God. I was like, how does this person have so much hope?
- [29:35]
Terry Moran
Wow.
- [29:35]
Tara Palmeri
You know what I mean?
- [29:36]
Terry Moran
Yeah. I just want to react to that, because first, I hear your passion for it, and that is. You know, I always say there's sometimes young people at ABC News would come to me and say, how do I get to do what you're doing? And how do you. And I said, there's only two things that you're in control of. One, you have to know the story. You got to know your story better than anybody else until you have to give a damn about it. You have to care. And if you. If you have that, the audience will trust you. They will feel it, they will know it. And I feel that. No question. And then the toll that that takes, especially this story. Right.
- [30:10]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah.
- [30:11]
Terry Moran
I remember one of my oldest daughter, I came back from covering. I think it was Virginia Tech, and she asked me, she said, daddy, does it make you sad to cover a lot of stories like that? And I said, the day it doesn't is the day I should quit.
- [30:29]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:31]
Terry Moran
You have to put yourself somewhat at emotional risk. You have to put yourself open to what people are going through so that you can. So that you can tell it. And you did. And you came out of that with. You moved the ball down the field.
- [30:46]
Tara Palmeri
I feel. I do feel that way. I mean, I ended up doing another show on Glenn, and we did a second series, and that one really dug into her and her psychology because I think a lot of people just can't understand, why would a woman do this? Why would she. You know, like, how could a woman become this depraved to also be a part of the molestation, to be there and to be recruiting. And I mean, to understand her psychology is to understand her father, who was a criminal as well, and how she was the favorite child and all of it. It's just a very dark mind. So I think, you know, that was really helpful for me to understand that and to understand her and talking to her friends and understanding the world she lived in. And so when they. Whenever I hear this idea that she's a victim, I just. It just. It angers me so much because so many of the women actually feel like, she was the one that they're even more angry with because of the betrayal, because of the fact that she was the one who promised them to fulfill their dreams. She was the one who was. They felt safe with because she was a woman. And. And she was the one who takes Virginia's panties off. She was the one who, you know, fondles Annie Farmer. You know, she was the one who did all these things. So I felt that, you know, it was really important for that. For. For that story to be told as well. I did some magazine reporting on how, you know, Jeffrey Epstein existed because of women as well. It wasn't just the. The Johns that he was making money from. It was also the women who kind of looked the other way, powerful women, too, in society that kind of allowed him to re. Exist. To exist even when he returned from jail being a sex offender. And so I looked into that and, like, what's wrong? Because there's just. Like, every shade of this story shows a. Is. Shows some of the worst parts of humanity, really. And so, And. And I, I. The thing. I get really the thing that pisses me off. And I don't know if you feel this as well, but I'm like, I'm really tired of people. It was like, you know, political operatives on the right thinking, like, this is a great story for us. Yeah. And then political operatives on the left, like, this is a great story for us. Yeah. It's a bad story for both of you, by the way, if you want to actually knows this story knows it's a bad story for both of you. And this is not about that. I mean, this is about these. These. These girls should not be used as pawns in power games because that's what they're trying to do.
- [33:13]
Terry Moran
And I just want to kind of jump in saying that one of my first substacks was on Epstein just because I got to write about it something I wouldn't have been able to. And I said that this is that. Yes, it's about Trump, but it's really about something else. It wasn't about politics. It was about class. Rich men got away with it again, Right?
- [33:35]
Tara Palmeri
That was exactly what it was. Yeah.
- [33:37]
Terry Moran
Well, Prince, I'm going to read my own prosecutor. There were princes and presidents, corporate chieftains and celebrity lawyers, oil shakes and Hollywood icons and scions of famous families. So many rich men flying on the devil's jet, dining with the devil, partying with him, visiting his island of terror for so many girls and women that should unite us, frankly.
- [33:58]
Tara Palmeri
That's. I actually wrote that. That was the first thing I wrote, too. I was like, this is a class war story. This is not about like. And that's why I don't. And I thought at the time that I said, you know, I thought that at the time that that was why it wouldn't go away, because it would be a class war. But it's actually MAGA is still sort of bending to Trump. Like, I, I thought, you know, well, I think maybe they, they, they will. I thought that they would see him as one of the elites that could get away with things that he, he always claims he's the victim, but in this case he's not. And this is one of those moments where he's actually using the justice system to protect himself. And clearly they don't see it that way.
- [34:41]
Terry Moran
Let me follow up on that. This does bring us to the news of the day on Epstein, and it's a big story for legitimate reasons because a, it's about young people, it's young women. It's about girls and young women. And we have a responsibility to protect young people from these monsters. Right. And also about class. So there's a reason for it. But first, the real news today is Ghislaine Maxwell. Right. Not the news, but the about to be news. What do you think the likelihood is of Trump pardoning her if she essentially clears him?
- [35:21]
Tara Palmeri
Oh, I mean, it's totally likely. He just threw up the idea of pardoning Diddy. It's like, everyone's going to get a pardon. You get a pardon. You get a pardon. Yeah. No, it's his, like. And then he's going to do it all in mass. So it's like, well, everybody got a pardon. It'll happen all at the same time. And, you know, it'll just be like. It's a. It will. If that happens. I mean, that is such a stab in the back to all of the victims, especially people, because I don't think people realize how much how traumatizing it is to testify and retestify and retest violate. Especially in the case of Annie Farmer, I mean, and her sister Maria. 1996, they call the FBI, they do nothing. 2004, two. I think, sorry. 2004 to 2005, they cooperate with the first case. Nothing happens. I want to just. I was listening to my old podcast again yesterday just because I was like, kind of. I wonder if there's anything I'm forgetting. The federal prosecutor who was working on the Epstein case recommended 60 federal charges for sex trafficking. You know how many they actually charged him with 0. 0.
- [36:24]
Terry Moran
Sex trafficking. What did they. What they get him on in that case?
- [36:27]
Tara Palmeri
Nothing. They decided not to charge him at all. Remember, that was the sweetheart deal. Non prosecution. He didn't get charged in the federal courts. He got charged for estate crime, sex trafficking. It was for procuring a minor for prostitution. It was. And he only, I think was two charges, state charges. And he ended up serving 13 months in prison. And he got to leave every day.
- [36:50]
Terry Moran
Didn't he get to leave every day or something?
- [36:52]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, the uncle bracelet. He got to. He got to spend time in his. In his office. And he was also abusing people at the same time. So.
- [37:00]
Terry Moran
All right, so. Well, let me just follow up on that. From your understanding of him and the case and what happened was that his money, that money talks and he had fancy lawyers and the locals are intimidated by them or they know him or was there something deeper that he had on high officials in Florida at that time that got him out?
- [37:23]
Tara Palmeri
Okay, I have literally knocked. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I have. I don't know how many doors I've knocked on in Florida, but I went to the prosecutors, all the prosecutors that worked on this case, I've knocked on their doors. I went to their colleagues. I interview a lot of their colleagues. Actually, I talked to the cops at the time. Like, I spoke to everyone. Here is my best understanding of what happened. Okay, this, I believe they're called district attorneys in, In. In Palm beach. It was either the district attorney or the state attorney. Because I know that it sounds. It's. It sounds like it's the state attorney, but it's. That's. Now I'm remembering it. It's called the state attorney, but it's really the attorney for the district, the Palm Beach District. And his name was Barry. Got him. I'm blanking on it. His last name, Epstein, State attorney. I'm going to find. I just want to get it right because this guy, to me was really repulsive. I remember this. Well, first of all, the money. Yes. His name was Barry Krisher. That is state attorney. He was the Palm Beach County State attorney, Barry Krisher. Okay. So he and this other woman, her last name was Levotnik, they were in charge of this case. Okay? And I'm telling you, parent after parent after parent, they're going to the Palm beach police office and they're saying there is a man and he is offering our daughters 200 for a massage. And they are going there and they are being molested. And then they go in there, the Plumage. Palm beach police. Get in there, go in there. They get a warrant, and. And with. They get the surveillance. They get the message pad with all these girls names on it. They get. They see pictures of naked girls all over the house, okay? They see sex toys. They. They actually, you know, take the sex toys out of the house. They see all of it. This is a depraved situation. This is a crime scene. They collect all of this information. They hand it over to the state attorney, okay? And her. And. And. And the woman Labotnik. I'm blanking. It was such an awkward name. And they. And then they have a grand jury. You know, that's what they do. And they walk out of this grand jury, and they say, there are no victims here. There are no victims here.
- [39:51]
Terry Moran
Well, what about the girls who first complain to their parents?
- [39:55]
Tara Palmeri
Exactly. What about the girls? Okay, so here is what I think. To my understanding of what happened, Barry was. Well, first of all, state attorney is a political position, which means you need to be elected. Okay? There. So you need money, and Epstein could grease everyone's wallet. Right? So there you go. Fill the coffers of the state attorney. So I want to be clear. The Palm beach police really did work hard on this Michael Ryder at the time. He's the police chief. He really was on this case, along with Rickari, who sadly passed away. But Barry just really did not want to go anywhere near this. Then Epstein hires Alan Dershowitz.
- [40:37]
Terry Moran
Right?
- [40:37]
Tara Palmeri
I remember that. Yeah. Barry's a Democrat. Alan Dershowitz, I believe, was a Democrat at the time.
- [40:43]
Terry Moran
At the time, yeah.
- [40:44]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. And so. And he. He really admired Allen, and I think Barry actually went to Harvard, and there was just like. You know, Alan Dershowitz is a celebrity among lawyers. He was in 2000.
- [40:58]
Terry Moran
Yeah, for sure. No question. No question. Reversal of fortune. I mean, he's. Yeah, he was a folk hero in some ways.
- [41:03]
Tara Palmeri
Exactly. So they kind of knew that they could sort of. They could woo him with Alan.
- [41:12]
Terry Moran
And I got to stop you there. We're talking about children. Who sells the. Just justice for children for a campaign contribution or for getting close to a famous lawyer? That sounds.
- [41:27]
Tara Palmeri
It's disgusting. But I'm telling you. I'm quoting my. I'm quoting the show. There are no victims here. That is what was said in the grand jury.
- [41:35]
Terry Moran
Wow.
- [41:36]
Tara Palmeri
It's crazy, by the way.
- [41:37]
Terry Moran
Oh, is it because. Is it because. Is that a way of slandering the complaining witnesses, the girls themselves, by saying, well, she was kind of out on the streets already, kind of thing?
- [41:49]
Tara Palmeri
They oh, oh, of course. That's exactly what his team was doing. They were intimidating girls. They told here the story of Courtney Wilde. Just breaks my heart. She's another one who I followed when. When they decided they were going to do the case, the federal case, they went to Courtney Wilde because Courtney was. I believe she was 12 or 13. She had braces on when she ended up, and on Epstein's doorsteps. Okay? And they went to Courtney's house. And these girls thought, the ones who. Who were approached by the pro, by the, you know, the feds, by the FBI, by prosecutors, that they were the ones that were in trouble, like, that they were prostitutes. And that's what sort of Epstein told them, like, you guys are in trouble. What you're doing is illegal. But I'll give you lawyers. I'll take care of you. Don't worry, you won't get in trouble, because I'll help you. So they took a lot of them, took lawyers from Epstein, and they're quoted as saying, he's a great guy. Oh, he's such a great guy. You know, so.
- [42:49]
Terry Moran
But that doesn't matter if they're minors. Doesn't matter, Terry. Consent does not matter.
- [42:54]
Tara Palmeri
This case was disgusting. I mean, there were so many injustices in every which way. It's. But, yes, it doesn't matter, because so many of them still testified. But then they're. They just didn't care. They didn't try. But it was. It was like. It was like a hatch deal. And then you go up the chain. So then this is. So. It was such a. It was such a perversion of justice. I mean, that's. You know, the Miami Herald, what they called it, perversion of justice. That Michael Writer, the Palm beach police at the time, he took the files and the entire case that the state attorney dropped, saying, there's no victims here. And he was like, I will not let this fly. This is so terrible, the number of children. How depraved is the fact that it's an actual pyramid scheme happening out of a high school in which One girl gets $200 to bring another girl. And you have to understand where these kids came from. $200 was more than their fathers would make in a week. Do you know what I mean? So this is. This is a whole other angle to it. And some of them felt like they were worthless people. They didn't deserve it. Like, that was the case with Courtney. She was, like, on the prostitute. She was hiding. She was scared. She thought the police were coming for her, and she didn't even believe that she deserved justice because she thought that she was, she was the perp. And then what they realized was maybe if she read some of the testimony from some of her friends. And so one of the. Marie Villafanya, who was the prosecutor on the federal case, she actually left her the testimony from her best friend on her doorstep for her to read. And her. And it made her cry and it made her realize like, okay, if it's not for me, then it's for her. You know, this is wrong. Maybe it, I'm fine with it because I don't, I think I'm worthless, but it's for her. So. So basically the police chief was unhappy. He goes to the feds and he said, look, you got to take up this case. And they're like, whoa, how could they not charge them? And then starts the case again, but this time with Republicans, Alex Acosta. And so then you get a whole new team. You don't need Dershowitz anymore. You have, I mean, he was always around. You get Ken Starr, you get Jay Lefkowitz, and those are the powerhouse. And guess it's. And you'll remember this, Terry, because you had to go to Palm beach sometimes to cover Trump, right?
- [45:13]
Terry Moran
Couple of times, yeah.
- [45:14]
Tara Palmeri
Remember the Marriott that it was, the airport hotel. They get Alex Acosta to drive an hour and a half from Miami to that Marriott airport hotel of lunch with him. A place that no one there would recognize Alex Acosta, Jay Leskowitz or Ken Starr. And they have a private conversation that never happens in any criminal case. That never happened. The, the. No, it just. Yeah, no, no, just happens. And that's gross. And suddenly the case is killed. They take back to the state and they decide to sign the, sign this non prosecution agreement where no one named and unnamed, unheard of is charged.
- [46:08]
Terry Moran
I mean, that's. So there's a couple things from that. First, it is a class story, you're right. It is about rich guys getting away with it. And that is something that I think brought us Trump to begin with. My whole theory of politics these days is that for 20 years too much money went to too few people and too few zip codes and the rest of the country won't have it anymore because they see stuff like this. If you've got the money, if you've got the connections, if you pal around with other people with money, you can literally get away with something like this. And then the other thing is your doggedness and your passion and, and commitment to this story. And, and now here it is again. So you, you've been following it for years and, you know, I'm going to ask the question that a lot of people ask. You know, what do you think Trump's involvement was? Do you, would you be surprised? And I'm going to tell you I wouldn't be surprised. But maybe I'm naive.
- [47:10]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah.
- [47:10]
Terry Moran
If it turned out that Trump was palling around with him for kind of more traditional playboy stuff and not the coercive and sex with minor stuff, and that there isn't really that kind of behavior by Trump and that he was more on the Jeffrey Epstein playboy side, what do you think of that?
- [47:31]
Tara Palmeri
I don't know. I mean, here's, I've talked to some of the survivors about this too, because obviously I, in my reporting have not found a survivor and spoken to them directly. That was trafficked to Trump. And I know there were two women that filed suits, Jane does, and they retracted them. And this was around the time of the 2016 race. So I, I, he is, is one.
- [47:58]
Terry Moran
Of them Katie Johnson?
- [47:59]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, but that's not a real name. That's a pseudonym.
- [48:02]
Terry Moran
Yes. So that's a pseudonym. And her case was withdrawn, right?
- [48:06]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, both of them were withdrawn.
- [48:08]
Terry Moran
What do you, what do you make of that?
- [48:11]
Tara Palmeri
I just don't know. I mean, pressure settlement. I don't, I don't know. You know, there's, we don't know.
- [48:18]
Terry Moran
All right.
- [48:19]
Tara Palmeri
So we, we just don't know. And I, I was talking to one of the girls who was a victim and she was a victim when she was 20. There were, some of the girls were of age and not everybody wanted to be with teenagers. I mean, and that's, that's true, too. I mean, I think, I think there were a lot of women too, as well. I mean, and when, I mean, women, I mean, girls over 18, so I would still consider them to be teens, like 18, 19.
- [48:52]
Terry Moran
Right, right.
- [48:53]
Tara Palmeri
Still too young. But there was a feeling that Jeffrey did keep a lot of them to himself. I do think if he was trying to compromise someone, which I think he did play in that game, like very kind of the comprom game, especially with rich and powerful people when he wanted to get deals and he wanted to make money. And I think he would maybe compromise someone. And I, and I have heard from victims that were underage that they were trafficked to men. So I think he would do that and then say that was, that girl was 16 or 17 or, you know, and, and suddenly he's got something on them. So do I, do I Think he's completely clear. I'll never really know. I don't know. I mean, unless somebody comes to me and tells me that aside from what we know, I don't have another for firsthand source, witness person who has told me that, so. Right. And I don't have a second source one either. It's not even like I'm like, oh, well, I've heard, you know, and I, if I did, I probably, like, I'd want to, I would rather follow up on it anyway. But I'm being truly honest when I don't have a second source.
- [50:01]
Terry Moran
Yeah, I respect that. I totally respect that. And I. And that's been my feeling as well that, that there isn't the damning information about Trump and minors, certainly, but there's obviously other kinds of behavior. And Michael, I don't know if you saw Michael Wolf the other day. He says he's got pictures or he saw pictures that Epstein went over to his safe at some point, showed him pictures of Trump, you know, in various states of undress, with various women in states of undress. They're all laughing at some stain on his pants kind of thing that that's what Trump doesn't want to come out.
- [50:38]
Tara Palmeri
Oh, it looks gross.
- [50:39]
Terry Moran
Because it's gross.
- [50:40]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure these women, girls, we don't know necessarily how old they are either, and maybe they are 18. And it looks perverted and gross. And he is too old. And he, he always was like, you have to understand, though, this was his life. Like, he was a playboy, he owned a modeling agency. Like, this was their, this was their lives. I mean, I'm. If you said this to me in 2010 when I was a Page Six reporter that just Trump hang out with like young models. I'm like, look at his wife. She, you know, like, she's a. She was young model. Like, this was who he was. He went to the Plaza Hotel. Like, he had parties. This was his world. And Jeffrey Epstein was one of his best friends and he was friends with them at the height of Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking operation. So how could you be best friends with someone and not know?
- [51:30]
Terry Moran
And not know? So I heard. Sorry, go on.
- [51:33]
Tara Palmeri
Gross. And the other thing is, you know, Virginia, maybe Virginia recalled meeting Trump. She told me that, and she said that he was polite to her. And maybe Trump didn't know that she was underage when he met her, but he never said anything about her working at Mar A Lago. Did not remember her from working at Mar A Lago. That's all bullshit.
- [51:52]
Terry Moran
Right, right, right. So there's, there's two things that arise from that. One, I think it was Kara Swisher who, who said that she'd talked to the wife of the founder. Co founder of Google. Sergey Brin.
- [52:03]
Tara Palmeri
Yes.
- [52:04]
Terry Moran
And they went down to the island together. And Mrs. Brin, I don't know her first name, she was there for half an hour and she said, we're getting out of here because you could, her story was that you could tell instantly what that place was about.
- [52:21]
Tara Palmeri
There was a girl that was so, that was so traumatized as like a victim, survivor there that was so traumatized that she actually tried to swim off the island. And did you ever look at that island, by the way? It's very dangerous. You can't swim off of it.
- [52:36]
Terry Moran
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very rocky.
- [52:39]
Tara Palmeri
And you don't know the next piece of land. I mean, that's how dangerous it was.
- [52:43]
Terry Moran
No, and then the other thing that occurs to the question that I have, okay, we don't have evidence at this point that, that, that Trump, whatever playboy lifestyle he might have had, was dealing with minors, which I think would be disqualifying even for maga. Right. So if not, and jury or the evidence isn't there, but what's he so afraid of then? Because he's clear. Every time he talks about releasing the Epstein papers, the Epstein file, it's like he's wearing a big sign saying I'm guilty. You know, his voice goes up like an, oh, well, you know, starts getting a little wiggy. You can see the nerves in him. It's, it's advertising that he's got something to hide. And even MAGA sees that. So what do you think?
- [53:30]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, I mean, he reads, feels like he's got something to hide and he's, it's, it's different than the normal Trump, don't you think? Yes. I mean, all the time and it's just like there's without, you know, it's just, yeah.
- [53:50]
Terry Moran
The famous, the three people interviewing them and they say, would you release the JFK files? Yes, yes, I would.
- [53:58]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah.
- [53:59]
Terry Moran
The Martin Luther King Jr. Yeah. No question. Yeah. How about the Jeffrey Epstein file? Yeah, yeah, maybe. I mean, it depends on, you know, there are a lot of, I mean, it's like big blaring sign, I've got something to hide.
- [54:15]
Tara Palmeri
It's not pretty for him. I think at the very least people should just be offended that he was an enabler by being his friend all that time.
- [54:21]
Terry Moran
Yes, that's a great point. That's a great point. But then that goes for that. And frankly, I think this would unite the divided country. If all of the names, whoever they will. If they were a Clinton, if they were a Gates, if they were anyone, release them all. Release them all as enablers, as pals. Especially if they're at that island, as you say, it was palpable what was happening there. And if you were. If you were there and lifting up Jeffrey Epstein with your prestige and your money.
- [54:57]
Tara Palmeri
Well, they're in those flight logs.
- [54:59]
Terry Moran
Yes, you can just look in the.
- [55:01]
Tara Palmeri
Flight logs who went to the island. That's it. I mean, you can look in the flight logs who was flying around with him. This is the thing that Virginia always said to me, that always struck me. You couldn't go in that house and not think it was weird, old guy, young girls hanging around off, he said topless, because he wanted tan bodies with no, no, you know, no tan lines. Girls everywhere, all the time. If you got on that plane, you. There is no way. Even I don't know if you ever saw the way he dressed up his flight. His pilot or. No, his flight attendants. Yeah, there was this girl, Nadia Marcinkova. She was a model and she was. The flight attendants were just. The whole thing was just depraved. Like you could not step. Be around Jeffrey Epstein and not know that he's a pervert.
- [55:52]
Terry Moran
And all those powerful men, right, all of those household names, you know, essentially enabling him, as you said, I mean.
- [56:05]
Tara Palmeri
For his money, for the girls. I don't know. I mean, there was.
- [56:10]
Terry Moran
All right, we're covering a lot of ground here, which I appreciate. So now I'm going to shift gears. Where'd that money come from? Where did that money come from?
- [56:18]
Tara Palmeri
Okay, it's a good question. So there's a lot of different theories. Was he an arms dealer? Right.
- [56:24]
Terry Moran
Non Khashoggi.
- [56:25]
Tara Palmeri
Right, right, exactly. Adnan Khashoggi. Did he do arms dealing with Robert Maxwell? Because I don't know if you remember this. In Maxwell's files, she said that Jepstine Jepstein Epstein promised to always provide for her for the rest of her life. And that means like. And so that means that her. His estate should pay for all of her legal fees. So there's a belief that her father, after he died, knowing that the jig was up with the stealing of the pensions. His father stole pensions from his employees at the Daily Mirror. Really classy guy, right, guys? Mysteriously off the side of a boat called the Lady Glenn after his favorite child, that he transferred the money over to Jeffrey, and that Jeffrey was then supposed to launder it and take care of his wife. I mean, his daughter, his favorite daughter. He did say on the record, none of my children will get any of my money. Only my two favorite. Kevin, Ian, sorry, who was his. Who was the most like him, and then Glenn, who was his friend. And he was very proud of Glenn because she was beautiful and he liked to kind of show her off. And, you know, Donald Trump met Glenn through her father. First time, Donald Trump actually went on his boat, the Lady Glenn, in Hudson river, because he owned the New York Daily News. And he remarked that it had a beautiful interior. And so I think that it started with. I think it started with Robert Maxwell. I also think Jeffrey Epstein also always worked both sides of the law. I think he was always passing on tips to the FBI. He started as a tipster with that huge Ponzi scheme with the Hoffenberg going back. Remember that scheme? It was a huge Ponzi scheme, $492 million. Jeffrey was his partner. He didn't get. He wasn't prosecuted. So he must have been giving the prosecutor. He admit he helped out with that case. So that's another.
- [58:23]
Terry Moran
Was that on Long Island? Was that. Was that in New York?
- [58:25]
Tara Palmeri
No, it was in New York, but.
- [58:27]
Terry Moran
Yeah, yeah, I remember that.
- [58:28]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. So Hoffenberg just died, but he spent the rest of his life in prison, and Jeffrey didn't serve any time at all. Jeffrey was definite. Definitely helped him then with his case. So I think Jeffrey had been always throwing out tips to the FBI and the CIA because he traveled so much. He was around dignitaries, heads of state, princes. You know, he could. He was a valuable American asset, you could say, abroad. And so I also think he was a double. Like, I think he probably gave tips to Mossad. He probably helped a lot of different places. He built a lot of goodwill, I think, in the intelligence community, and I think they were willing to overlook a lot, but he also probably did it knowing that they would overlook some of the crimes that he's committing. These are my theories, but it's based on a lot of. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so I'm going to be clear, but I do know this story pretty well. So it's like, clearly, yeah, there's just a lot of connections. And. And even in the case, there's a file that says, you know, Jeffrey Epstein provided the information to the FBI. He provided information to the FBI to. To stop. To close the seizure, the forfeiture seizure of his. I think there was Some sort of forfeiture of his assets at some point. So what information did he give the feds to make sure that he got his assets back? And that's, that's a public document. You could find it in the FBI vault. So.
- [60:04]
Terry Moran
So there's a lot more to find out, essentially. I think that's one of the things that keeps people interested. You are one of the best read in reporters on it. And the trail goes so far. And then what? And people want to know that that's quite natural. And then the other reason is the horror of it. That's not just the horrible crimes that were committed, but that they seems to have gotten away with it because of powerful people helping them. And that will light people up. And as I say, I think it should unite the country. We should all want to know about this.
- [60:43]
Tara Palmeri
I agree. I totally agree. And I just, I really think that he just had every angle covered. You know, he just had law enforcement, he was valuable asset to them. He had who. And they also don't care about poor people. Sadly in this country we know that the two tier justice system. He was wealthy. He had the wealthy. He just had everything covered. He worked in shady. I think he did like a lot of just basic compromise, you know, through parties, had damaging information on people and he could use that. The girls knew it. They knew it too. They were like, everything's being recorded.
- [61:24]
Terry Moran
And you know, tear in a way, it does break your heart because for, for such a long time, so many people were victimized by that power. Now, yeah, we did, we did say at the beginning because I'm, I'm new to this, this, this medium that we talk a little bit. And I'm thinking, to all the people out there who are trying to make their own substacks work and be part of this community, give me some tips to close it off. Give me some tips. Give me what, or rather tips, insights that you have about substack, how it works, what's great about it, what you've enjoyed.
- [62:01]
Tara Palmeri
Harry, you've already blown past me. But I've been on a little bit longer. I started it like five months ago. Yeah.
- [62:07]
Terry Moran
Oh, there you go.
- [62:08]
Tara Palmeri
All right.
- [62:08]
Terry Moran
Well, the only reason I blew past anybody is I picked a great time to get fired. That's all that goes to that.
- [62:15]
Tara Palmeri
So I, I, I appreciated it. It was, I, I, when everyone else was like, was he drunk? I'm like, no. I was like, no, that's scary.
- [62:30]
Terry Moran
It's true. It's true. I wasn't, I wasn't, it was Something, in fact, what I say it's true is that I, before I sent it off, I reread it and I said, well, that might be getting me in a little trouble because I had gotten in trouble over the years a bunch of times for posts and various other things, stuff that I was saying, not doing. And I thought, well, I know what I'll tell him. Because I looked at. I said, that's a description. That's not an attack. That's a description. That's true and fair. And so I hit send. That's literally what I did. Got the call the next morning at 8:00 and it's like, uh, oh, we're off to the races.
- [63:11]
Tara Palmeri
Oh, they gave you. They gave you a note. They let you sleep.
- [63:14]
Terry Moran
Well, it was late. It was late. That's why everybody thinks it was a drunk tweet, because it was late. But we had a very ordinary night. Family dinner, family movie. And then. But I had been stewing about Stephen Miller and what the administration is doing, what the country feels like under this day to day bludgeoning, really. And that's really what the cause of it was. And then not only was it not drunk, I carefully considered it and carefully wrote it and. But so that's the only reason that I got a whole bunch of traction out here on Substack, because it became a bit of a story. And I went right out on Substack, thank you to Substack. They said, hey, you should come out and go on live. And lawyers were telling me, don't do it, saying, we don't want to see you out there until we're done with the negotiations at the end of every career. And I thought, no, I really want to still work and f the lawyers.
- [64:11]
Tara Palmeri
This Epstein story doesn't tell you anything. It's bad.
- [64:17]
Terry Moran
Anyway. What do you love about it? What do you love about Subsect? What are you learning?
- [64:20]
Tara Palmeri
I think actually the thing I love about it is that you and I could even have this conversation.
- [64:25]
Terry Moran
Yeah.
- [64:25]
Tara Palmeri
In front of a camera. I mean, this is the kind of conversation that we would never be able to have in front of a camera ever in the real world.
- [64:34]
Terry Moran
And we had conversations like this Tara in the White House booth.
- [64:37]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. Oh, yeah. But there would never be an opportunity for 1,700 people and more to hear our candor, our honesty and who we really are. And I do think, like, we are in a really, really scary time, people. We're seeing a lot of scary things. It's a scary time to be a journalist too. And it's easy to attack the messenger, right? And the more people know about us and who we are and what our values are and what we stand for, that we aren't just Terry Moran in front of the White House or Tara Palmer, you know, it's just like the more they know who we are and what we stand for and what, what motivates us and our worldview and our perspective. Because we're human beings. Yes, I think they will. They will give us the opportunity to hear from us, give us grace, give us also trust, build a community. And we can hear from them too, and listen to what they have to say, what they care about, not just be told from the top down what matters. Because you know what? Maybe if I was working somewhere else, they'd say, tara, you know what? Our numbers aren't so great on the Epstein story anymore, so we can still. You gotta stop. You know, now the only thing I will say about being at a big network, the thing that's great if they let you pursue a story, if they let you, which was what I always found to be really hard because they're very risk intolerant, obviously, is that you can like, at least they usually, if they think the story is worth pursuing, that you're covered. Because right now we're in this place where people will just sue you for defamation to try to stop story from coming out. I think this is particularly one of those stories where if you get close, you're going to be attacked. And especially as an independent journalist. So I've been trying to really do a lot of deep reporting on Epstein and you just have to really make sure it's nailed down and you have support and I don't know, I just think it's like, just be true yourself, which you always have been and you've always been able to shine through on TV, but I. But you don't. In a minute 30 clip or whatever they're giving you, whatever time they're giving you with a script and a 15 people screaming in your ear, you're never going to get the kind of Terry where like I can actually see in your house and your doors red and there's like, I'm up in Wisconsin.
- [67:00]
Terry Moran
This is a cottage in Wisconsin.
- [67:02]
Tara Palmeri
I'm teaching now. Now I know that. And like, what are you doing today? You're teaching. And like, you know, you can see all the weird things behind me, like that picture I got in North Korea. Or like, you know.
- [67:12]
Terry Moran
Or like when you went to North Korea.
- [67:15]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. Or like my weird. Like, like My Sicilian great, great grandparents, you know, so it's like there's a. Like, there's a. An intimacy. And I just think, be true to you. Always keep those notes coming. And, like, the community loves you already. I can tell. Like, you have a huge audience. And I think this is. This was actually the place you were always supposed to be. And this is. I've never felt more true for anyone else I've ever met, having worked with you, because I do think you are an exceptional writer. And I was sad that you didn't. You weren't able to use it on tv.
- [67:51]
Terry Moran
Well, thank you very much. What? I hear you. Thank you, truly. And you said that to me. When I reached out to you, she said, I always thought you belonged here. You said that. But what you're talking about two things. Authenticity. Right. Which is very difficult to do in network news. They wanted to change the way you pronounced your name, Taryn.
- [68:11]
Tara Palmeri
Well, in fairness, when I went to the executives and I was like, they had me obviously go to this coach to, like, fix up my voice, fix up my hair, fix up my. Like, they changed me, you know, made me presentable. Went from, like, the kind of they.
- [68:26]
Terry Moran
Girl, come on.
- [68:27]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, you've been.
- [68:28]
Terry Moran
You are pretty presentable.
- [68:30]
Tara Palmeri
So you got to. You had to be. I, you know, you had to look the right look. You had to have.
- [68:34]
Terry Moran
Well, here's what I was. Here's what. I'll let you finish. But here's what I thought. I always thought about that. Oh, you know, you wear a tie. I wanted to, you know, have a haircut with it out of courtesy. I only thought, I don't want to walk into somebody's home whom, I don't know, just kind of looking to. Looking Joe Schmoey. So that's it. When it drifts into. We want to mold you into a certain look and neutralize your personality is what you got to watch out for. Anyway. Go on.
- [69:03]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. So there's always, like, a consultant. So it's not anyone, like, in the network. It's the consultant that's outside, kind of insulates them a little bit, you know. And so they brought me to the consultant, and the consultant and I, we talked about the way I spoke and then the way I carried myself, and we talked about, I don't know, getting Botox. Yeah. She was a woman who worked on Sarah Palin, and I actually understood why Sarah Palin went crazy after the time of the consultants. Because I worked. After working with her, I left. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm Such a.
- [69:38]
Terry Moran
This now, by the way, how many. How many men do they do that to? How many men do they do that?
- [69:43]
Tara Palmeri
I don't know, but I felt. I remember going home. Luckily, actually, at the time, my boyfriend was a producer at the time, and he worked in another network. And I remember telling him about what I was going through, and he was. It was actually a blessing because he was like, it's okay. They do this to everyone. This is the big leagues. Don't worry. Like, this is fun. Fine. It's totally normal. Just go along with it. And so I cut my hair. I got, like. I did the laser eye surgery because they didn't really want me to wear my glasses and my. The. Because the glare obviously doesn't look good on tv. And then the. But for me to wear contacts, I would be blinking like a fish. So I was just like. And actually, I'm happy I got laser eye surgery, frankly. There were a lot of good and honesty. They made me look better. It was like my Eliza Doolittle moments. I can't blame them. But then when she was saying, like, I should say my name, like, Tara, I was like, are you fucking crazy? And so I. I went to the. I went to the. The executives, and I will say the talent. I said, I went to them in talent. And they were like, no, okay, that's a step too far. They agreed that that was a step too far. But I. I think it just kind of was like, I was like, I'm gonna mess it up. And, like, I get it. I say it in a weird way. I have a Jersey accent, say Tara. And I'm like, but you know what? The way it came out of your mother's mouth is probably the way you were supposed to be called.
- [70:58]
Terry Moran
Yes.
- [70:59]
Tara Palmeri
And so. Yeah. And. But it. You know, and it wasn't just that, like, you know, when you get into that. That. That status of life, like, it's really. Can be a thrill and amazing, but it can also show. You can also make you feel really small. Well, sort of how I felt.
- [71:13]
Terry Moran
It's funny because I came up a slightly different way. I came up at Court TV. Yeah, that was my first TV job way back when, 30, 35 years ago or whatever now. And the guy who ran Court TV was a journalist and an excellent one, Stephen Brill, and he did great journalism on the Teamsters. He was a digger. He was a. And he still does good books. You'll see him. And he said, I'm not going to have a TV network where smart people write what Pretty people read. And he said, if you're, no matter who you are, you have to write your own stuff. And if you're great at, you know, whoever you are. And I remember there was a woman who taught me so much about crime. Cause I had not covered crime. And she had not only covered crime, she had grown up in a trailer park in, like, Oklahoma. And every week we had an editorial meeting. This is one of the ways he did it. And we looked at all these potential cases, trials that we were going to cover. And I was kind of a civil libertarian, Washington guy. They're railroading this defendant. And she was like, you've never actually lived in a neighborhood where there's crime, have you? Because you don't get it. He probably did this, you know, and it was, and she was so great. She was a great reporter, really smart, not traditional TV looking, right?
- [72:38]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah.
- [72:39]
Terry Moran
And she was fantastic. She ended up, I'm pretty sure, getting a job with a local station in Texas, which she had for many years, because that's what matters. Brill knew that, that ABC and NBC and CBS and the big networks generally don't. That it's who you are, truly, that will earn the trust. It's credibility, authenticity, trust. All go together.
- [73:04]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. They spent so much time grooming me that by the time I left, I was like, my voice was low. It was like, I'm Tara Palmeri from the White House, and I'm this and I'm that. And my friends, when they look at those videos, they're like, that was scary, by the way, when I actually did the broken podcast and they wanted me to start tracking my voice, I started doing the voice, the broadcast voice. And they were like, no, sweetheart, we need to get you back to who you are. And I was like, oh, now I gotta be myself again. And then I had to relearn being me. And that was also a whole other experience. And maybe I took the training too far. And they even said it at one point, they're like, maybe she took it too far. You know, it's just, it's a lot. I, I, I think there's something to be said about having the experience of coming up in television, going through the local route. And I, I don't know. Now, podcasting, though, the different, the, the variety is the spice of podcasting. So, yes, something for everybody.
- [74:06]
Terry Moran
Because this is the last thing I'll say, because it does build connection and credibility. And I would say for my, some of my dear friends who are, especially the news anchors, many of them at these places, all of a sudden it feels very much old fashioned the way they kind of will address the camera.
- [74:29]
Tara Palmeri
Oh, it's a little corny. It's actually corny. Like if you say to a friend like, oh, like no one would be like, you're going to be the future Diane Sawyer. Because they'd be like. And that's kind of corny now. Like that's not what you. That's not like that. I think anyone who works in news wouldn't want to be the future Diane Sawyer. I think they'd rather like kind of like be the future of a podcast or like something that people actually like. For me, if I had the choice between being booked on the biggest podcast in the world or the biggest TV show in the world, I choose the biggest podcast.
- [74:58]
Terry Moran
No question about it. What I like to say, and I gotta tell you, I've said this before, it does feel like I walked out of yesterday and into tomorrow. But one of the more practical ways of saying it is the 2028 election is not going to take place on NBC, CBS and ABC. It's just not CNN. It's not. It's going to take place out on podcasts, on substack, YouTube, all these spaces is where it is going. It already is. Roy Cooper, who's running for the Senate in North Carolina, announced on Brian Taylor, Brian Tyler Cohen, Brian Tyler Cohen's podcast and buttigieg was, you know, is out and about. And there's no question that the audience has moved into these spaces because of the trust factor, I think. And I'm glad to be out here.
- [75:48]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, me too. It's always better.
- [75:50]
Terry Moran
It is. Well, that was great. I'm gonna let you go because it kept you for more than an hour, but we should do it again.
- [75:57]
Tara Palmeri
After my ceiling fell through, I was a little frazzled today because I had a total disaster. So thank you guys and great to meet everyone from Terry's world. And if you guys are interested, subscribe to the new the Red Letter.
- [76:12]
Terry Moran
What is it called again? What's your substack?
- [76:14]
Tara Palmeri
It's called the Red Letter and I do all sorts of reporting and journalism about politics and power. But I've been covering the Epstein story for a really long time and I'm gonna keep digging into it. So if you're still interested, keep, keep on it.
- [76:28]
Terry Moran
And I said at the beginning, I'll say it again. One of the best reporters I knew.
- [76:32]
Tara Palmeri
Same here. Right back at you, Terry.
- [76:34]
Terry Moran
Seriously, thank you, thank you for watching.
- [76:37]
Tara Palmeri
Bye. I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenate and my awesome team at the Tara Palmieri Show. Adam Stewart on the thumbnails, Sarah Carney handling social media, and my researchers, Abby Baker and Luke Radle. See you again soon.