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The Tara Palmeri Show
Dispatch from Jerusalem: UN Body declares Genocide as Israel launches land invasion
00:21:17
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Sally Lockwood
Do you want to do the intro or shall I?
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Tara Palmeri
I think you should do it because you're in the cool place.
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Sally Lockwood
Okay. Welcome to State of the World. I'm Sally Lockwood in Jerusalem.
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Tara Palmeri
I am Tara Palmeri in New York. Sally.
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Sally Lockwood
Hi. T. Good to see you.
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Tara Palmeri
It's so good to see you. We tried to record this earlier today, but there was an Internet outage in Jerusalem. I guess that's just. Just normal life in Israel, right?
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Sally Lockwood
Yeah. To be honest, there was. Yeah. Was this whole area of the city lost Internet for a while. So it may not be the strongest. There might be a bit of a delay, but we've got it back now. But it's not just Jerusalem, actually. The whole of the Middle east has been affected when it comes to Internet because some Internet cables in the Red Sea have been cut and apparently the disruption is going to last for around six weeks. So I have the same problem in the UAE as well. But we. But we'll give it a go. So, yeah, I'm in Israel. I was in Doha in Qatar last week when we were speaking then in the last episode. And then I've jumped over here and it's been a really. Yeah, hectic few days. The Secretary of State, Marco Rubio has been in town doing damage control in terms of that diplomatic disaster that's unfolded when Israel bomb that Hamas residence in Qatar that we were talking about in the last episode today, there's been a team of legal experts from the UN who are commissioned to look into what's happening in Gaza. And they've declared that a genocide is happening in Gaza, which is huge news. It's the most substantial declaration yet. Essentially, this is an independent body from the un. Right. So this is not the UN themselves declaring genocide in Gaza, even though they're under mounting pressure to do so. So that was announced in the last few hours, which is huge news. And, you know, we'll have to see what comes of it. I think my concern with all these sorts of reports is that it doesn't change anything. And then something else that's happened today, which is New is the Israeli military have gone in to Gaza City on the ground. They've been targeting it from the air in recent weeks. And their ground offensive in Gaza City has begun today with the Israeli Defense Minister declaring on X Gaza is burning is what he said. And certainly if you look at the images in Gaza City, it is shocking. I know we've talked about it before and talked about how shocking some of the things that we're seeing in Gaza are, but I still get shocked by what I'm seeing. And there's been the systematic destruction of these high rise buildings in Gaza City this week. I mean, we've been getting images sent to us and they're just being flattened right next to, you know, temporary shelters and tents where people are living. And the Israelis have been doing it because they claim that Hamas is using these high rise buildings for surveillance, which is why they want to destroy them. The whole city is under an evacuation order. Around a million people live in Gaza City. So they are trying to get a million people to move south in order to take control of Gaza City. And I mean, the numbers vary depending on who, who you listen to and, and who's whose facts you're reading. But it sounds like a fraction of the city have evacuated so far. And that's mainly because people don't feel like they've got anywhere to go. They don't have the resource to travel, they don't have the money to pay for transport to move south. You know, I mean, just to kind of try and explain what it's like to even get a temporary shelter for your family in Gaza at the moment, which is like plastic sheeting. They're being sold for a thousand dollars to people. People don't have a thousand dollars.
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Tara Palmeri
That's, that's insanity. That is disgusting, that exploitation of people that are in dire need.
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Sally Lockwood
And I know that people listening to this podcast are going to, you know, have views. Everyone has a view on what's happening. And there will be people who have a real issue with the term genocide being used. And there will be people who say this, we knew that this was a genocide, you know, last year, months ago. This is way too late. This should have been declared way before now. But whatever side of the argument you're on, I think hopefully as human beings, we can all agree that the suffering that we're seeing in Gaza has to stop. And, you know, I'm sitting here in Jerusalem covering this story. I feel like such a fraud that I'm not there in Gaza City. This is not how I like to do journalism, I like to go and bear witness and to verify the facts for myself and to speak to people and see things firsthand. And I can't. Instead, I'm receiving updates on my phone every hour. You know, I see them first thing in the morning. They're still dropping now. And honestly, I can't describe to you how upsetting the images are. They are just awful. You know, today I received a video of children at Al Shifa Hospital, and some of them looked dead and some of them were screaming. And you can't fake that. And it's just horrific. And you just sort of think, God, how is this going to end? When, you know, I. I rarely lose hope, but I feel hopeless at the moment because just when you think things can't get any worse, they seem to.
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Tara Palmeri
It's incredibly traumatizing. And Sally, for all of our listeners who are saying, well, why can't you go to Gaza? Can you sort of explain to them why you're unable to report from the front lines, which is what you normally do, and you've covered crises all over the globe, from Ukraine to Afghanistan. You've interviewed the Taliban. Why can't you get into Gaza?
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Sally Lockwood
So since October 7, Israel has not allowed international journalists access to Gaza. They control the borders and they're not allowing international journalists in despite demands. You know, we have been calling on them, you know, since the very beginning to allow us access. And they are using the excuse that it's an active war zone and they don't want to let us in. And I mean, they can dress it up as much as they like, that they are doing this for our protection, but we go to conflict zones all the time and report firsthand, and we are very happy to take responsibility for our own actions and decisions. And we don't need the Israeli government to decide what, what is best for us. And we.
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Tara Palmeri
And for your own safety. I mean, networks. Yeah, networks spend a lot of money to. On your own, on your safety, to protect you, to do this.
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Sally Lockwood
Yeah. So we can only draw the conclusion that they don't want us to see what is happening there. And it makes it a lot easier for Israel to control the narrative when they don't have international journalists on the ground verifying the information for themselves. That they can dismiss journalists in Gaza as Hamas operatives, that they can dismiss killing groups of people by saying that they were working with Hamas or that the hospital was, you know, on top of her mass hideout. You know, I mean, they could, they can tell us what they want because we, we cannot we cannot verify otherwise. We cannot verify whether what they're saying is true or false. I mean, we do our best, but it's, it's not the same as being there in person. It's very easy for them to undermine our journalism because we're not there. And it's very frustrating. And, you know, we're very grateful to the brave souls that work with us who send us information and interviews and videos on a daily basis.
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Tara Palmeri
Are some of these people people that you've known for a long time, even before the war? Are some of the sources that you're talking to reputable? Not that the people that you talk to aren't reputable, but people that you've had a long relationship with and who you have strong reason to believe? Because there's always questions about journalists and their sourcing. And I think it's worth mentioning that you've worked with these people before. You found them to be credible, you know. You know, you have a history with them.
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Sally Lockwood
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Sky News has had a relationship with teams in Gaza for a very long time, long before October 7th. And I have my own contacts as well. And, you know, I've been put in touch with the people that are my sources through credible, credible contacts. You know, whether that is someone who has an aid organization who uses the. Them to distribute aid, and they've used them for a long time, and they know their history and they know who they are, or whether it's someone who's been, you know, working with the UN in Gaza or someone who I've been introduced to through the un it's rare that I, you know, I don't, I don't receive information or use it for my reporting. I sometimes use it for context, but I don't use it for my reporting when it's just sitting. Someone that is approaching me on social media, who. I have no idea who they are, you know, so, yeah, it's really hard. But we do the best we can. And definitely, you know, we, we try and fact check everything because you often hear those credible sources. I lost you there.
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Tara Palmeri
Obviously, Sally dropped out for a part of this interview. But this is just the struggle of journalism, as we know. And this is why this show is so great, because you are on the ground in the war zones, in conflict, and you are trying to get to the heart of the story. But let's talk a little bit more about the diplomacy and what's happening right now on the ground. Marco Rubio is in Israel trying to mend any sort of diplomatic progress. After the attacks in Qatar. What are you hearing, Sally, from your sources?
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Sally Lockwood
Yeah, that's right. Marco Rubio has come to the region this week. It was a hastily arranged visit. We only found out the night before. And it was obviously after that diplomatic disaster in Doha when, you know, Israel bombed a Hamas residence in Qatar, a key American allies country. And it's just caused so much tension here in the Middle East. You know, it's really escalated things. So Marco Rubio has been in Jerusalem speaking with Benjamin Netanyahu. They had a closed door meeting for several hours and then they, then they made a public statement and answered questions from journalists, but really gave very little away in terms of, you know, America criticizing Israel in any way or reprimanding them for what they did. But I'm pretty sure behind closed doors, the messaging was don't do that again. But in front of the cameras, you know, Netanyahu was all about being strong, about how America and Israel are still best friends, how they've never had such a close friend in the White House as Donald Trump, but that, you know, he didn't rule out that they would potentially do it again. They essentially said, wherever you are in the world, we will come for you. And so that's done little to calm down tensions in the Middle East. Arab leaders have been meeting in Doha to discuss their response to what's happened. And Marco Rubio has spoken with them as well while he's been in the region. He's certainly been doing, I would say, damage control in terms, in terms of America's relationships. But what it's done is it's left the diplomacy efforts when it comes to Gaza in ruins. You know, the cease fire talks for now are over. How do you negotiate with people that you've just tried to kill? You know, and, and there's a lot of criticism here in Israel about what Benjamin Netanyahu, you know, did in that decision to, to strike the negotiators in Qatar, you know, the hostage families are furious. They feel like this is a death sentence for their loved ones. You know, how, how are they going to get the hostages back now when the very people that they were supposed to be doing a deal with, they've tried to kill? I mean, there's no goodwill anymore. And you know, Qatar have said they're going to stay, they're going to try and stay true to, you know, their role as mediators. But at the moment, it's just really, really hard to see how that's going to move forward. I think at the moment, you know, the ceasefire proposal that Donald Trump was. Was putting to both sides, that. That was. That was, I would say, within reach of potentially getting over the line. You know, when those Hamas negotiators, that those members of the leadership were in Doha last week, apparently, I was told this by a Qatari government official. They were there looking at Donald Trump's latest proposal. That was the reason for their visit. They'd apparently traveled there from Turkey, and, you know, and then it was at that moment that Israel targeted them and bombed their residents. And obviously, since then, diplomacy is out the window. So it feels like, you know, any hope of a breakthrough is just over right now. Even though Marco Rubio was still trying to talk it up this week, that, you know, they could be weeks away from achieving something, it just doesn't feel like that here on the ground. And I was chatting with a Jewish guy who I met earlier. He's here from Australia. He's Jewish. Australian. And he's here visiting friends. And he said to me, you know, I feel really depressed. I feel really depressed being here and seeing how things are and hearing, you know, what's happening and the developments. He said, I just feel like I've lost hope. And I think that is the sense here. That is the sense here, even among a lot of Israelis, is that they're beginning to lose hope. And it's very hard for people right now to see a way forward because there's not even diplomacy taking place.
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Tara Palmeri
Yeah. And I don't think that they should hold their breath. That thinking that President Trump will change Netanyahu's mind about any of this. He really isn't applying the full pressure of the presidency on him.
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Sally Lockwood
Why not? And why not, do you think, T. Why. Why is he not doing that? What's the take in America?
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Tara Palmeri
I don't think he wants to be seen as on the wrong side of this, especially with the powerful Jewish community in the US I don't think he has the bandwidth for it. He has so much going on at home. They have a relationship that he obviously doesn't have with Hamas. There are, like, there are a number of reasons he is, you know, there's. There are a number of reasons. Steve Wittclough Cough is close to Netanyahu, but I don't know for a fact. But I can just say that, you know, Trump wants to take credit for a deal, but this kind of. To make this happen, it's not. You can't make this a side project of your presidency.
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Sally Lockwood
Do you remember the Abraham Accords from his first term? In office, where he did deals with between Israel and various Arab countries that, to formalize diplomatic relations.
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Tara Palmeri
That was Jared Kushner, though, that, that made that hit.
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Sally Lockwood
Jared Kushner exactly was here in the region carving out those deals. It was seen as a huge success by the Trump administration in his first term. And even Trump called it one of his proudest achievements. It was the fifth anniversary of the Abraham Accords being signed in Washington this week. And I. I would say that those peace deals are on life support right now. You know, the Arab nations and the Gulf nations that have been meeting in Doha this week, outraged about what Israel did in Qatar, furious. You know, they are talking about the normalization of relations between Israel and Arab nations being in jeopardy, that they're under threat because of what Israel's doing. And there's the annexation of the West Bank. I don't know if you're aware, but Benjamin Netanyahu's government has plans to annex the west bank, which is the main area of Palestinian, where Palestinians live in, in this region. And he's talking about taking control of it. Now, the United Arab Emirates, who signed the Abraham Accords with Israel, a senior official from the UAE has said that they would be under threat essentially if annexation were to happen. And interestingly, I thought that Marco Rubio and Benjamin Netanyahu might make a statement on that this week. And nothing was said, absolutely nothing was said in reference to annexation. And there is a school of thought that is thinking that if countries at the UN next week declare Palestinian statehood, that they will formally recognize a Palestinian state. The thinking is that. That Benjamin Netanyahu might then seek to annex the west bank as a response to that, to that move by the UN So, look, who knows? I mean, it's really. It's really complex, and I just. I just don't see a way forward. But what I would say is, I think at the moment, it feels like Israel and America and the rest of the world, in terms of how the world is viewing Gaza geopolitically, I don't know if you've seen, but in Spain and France, there have been some very bold statements made about Israel and about Palestinian state. The Spanish prime minister withdrew their ambassador to Israel, you know, and he's talking about opening an embassy in the West Bank. France making similar noises. And interestingly, I was speaking to someone today who said to me that the Jewish community in France feel really vulnerable right now. There's a lot of Muslims living in France. There's a much smaller Jewish population, and that they now feel at risk living there and because they feel that there's this sort of anti Jewish sentiment because of what's happening in Gaza. And he said to me, what you will see now is French Jews moving to Israel not because they want to, but because they need to. That was someone's prediction to me today. I just think that what's happening in this region right now and Benjamin Netanyahu's actions are going to have far reaching consequences.
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Tara Palmeri
Yeah, yeah. It's shaking the world. Thank you for your reporting. Be safe while you're there. And it's always good to check in who knows where where Sally will be next week. Thank you for tuning in to State of the World. Please Subscribe Like Leave a Comment Share this with all of your friends. We want to keep this channel going so that you can get a unique perspective on what is happening around the world through two veteran journalists, independent minded women.
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Sally Lockwood
I'm not a veteran yet.
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Tara Palmeri
Okay. I, I think at least a decade is a, you know, a decade of work as a qualified veteran. But you know, I'm always trying to.
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Sally Lockwood
Make myself sound younger.
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Tara Palmeri
Not older, too young, but knowledgeable, but veteran. Okay, great to see you all and thank you for your support.
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Sally Lockwood
Thanks guys. Thanks T. Great to see you.
- [20:21]
Tara Palmeri
That was another episode of the Tara Palmeri Show. I want to thank my team, Eric Abenate, my producer, for getting this together and for everyone else who makes the Tara Palmeri show possible. And I hope you will all share this with your friends. Leave a Comment like subscribe Whatever it is you do, you can go to the Tara Palmeri show on YouTube. That's at Tara Palmeri at Tara P A L M E R I and subscribe. If you want to watch these shows, you can also subscribe to my newsletter, the Red Letter, where you can get my journalism straight to your inbox and support independent journalism. See you again soon.