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The Tara Palmeri Show
Dispatch from Qatar: Israeli strike rocks Diplomacy with Sally Lockwood
00:19:24
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Tara Palmieri Show. I'm dropping in with an episode from another YouTube channel that I am a part of called State of the World. I co host a weekly show on geopolitics with my very good friend Sally Lockwood, who has spent a very long time as a correspondent covering global crises around the world, from Afghanistan to Ukraine. She was one of the few women to ever interview the Taliban. And this week, she is in Doha in this episode and reporting after Israel struck on this US Ally in an attempt to try to take out the leaders of Hamas. They did not actually end up succeeding in that mission. And the question is, how will Hamas retaliate next? And where. Qatar has long been seen as the Switzerland of the Middle East. So this has obviously rocked the region. Sally herself lives in the region in Dubai, and she is constantly traveling around the globe reporting on all of the biggest issues. And that's why you should really subscribe to State of the World. It's easy, it's free. All you have to do is go to YouTube and it's at State of the World, and we have a weekly show. And Sally is absolutely brilliant. She offers so much reporting and context and empathy. It's a show like you can't see on television, frankly, and I think you'll really enjoy it. Take a listen here.
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B
Welcome to State of the World, everyone. Hi, Sally Lockwood here. I'm in Doha in Qatar.
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A
I'm Tara Palmeri in New York. Sally is on the scene in one of the biggest stories going on right now, which is saying something since our world seems to be, as always, on fire every time we check into the State of the world. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
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B
Chaos and panic as Israel brought their war with Hamas to the streets of Doha. This move has destroyed the trust integral to Qatar's mediation efforts. So on the war in Gaza, and it's shattered the peace and security that defines life here.
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A
Sal, what has it been like over the past 24 hours ever since the airstrikes on Qatar? I mean, this is incredible.
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B
It's a huge story, especially here in the Middle East. Does it. Does it feel as big in America.
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A
Are you guys talking about, to say? Because we had the assassination of Charlie Kirk, who is a political leader in America, which has sort of dominated the discussion right now, but it is probably top two or top three story right now.
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B
So I was arriving to take my toddler for a swim on Tuesday, and I got a text from the head of Foreign News sky in London, who I'd missed a call from him and he just said, call me urgently. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Tara. When he said to me, Israel has bombed Qatar, I was like, yeah, what are they, are they crazy? You know, this is just not something that anyone in this region especially, but anyone who's got any idea about geopolitics would ever have imagined could have happened. And then like you say, you know, so much has overshadowed it this week, but it's still absolutely massive. And in any given week, normally this would still be top story because it's like really ripped up another huge international norm. It's broken so many diplomatic red lines and it's really unclear at the moment how it's going to play out. And America is Israel's best friend, right? So it's like they've, they've bombed a nation that is a huge American ally. And not just that, that has America's biggest military presence in the Middle east is here. And I guess the questions, you know, aside from the shock and disbelief, was what was Israel thinking? What was Benjamin Netanyahu thinking? And will this be worth it? Because the diplomatic fallout is going to be huge. And actually, you know what's really interesting t is that Benjamin Netanyahu has called this entirely justified, this act, bombing a neutral nation. And it's called a neutral nation. I've been challenged on this by people who feel that Qatar shouldn't be offering a home to people who are members of Hamas. Right. But the reason it's important is because you do need a safe place for warring parties, for enemies to meet and talk and do deals. And that is what Qatar has done for decades. You know, that's, it's like specialism on the world stage is being this kind of neutral safe zone where it's like.
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A
The Switzerland of the Middle East.
- [04:50]
B
Exactly. No, you put it perfectly. That's exactly what it is. And, and it has been this off limits zone for decades. You know, peace isn't done on the battlefields. That's not how wars are won. They're won at the negotiating table, they're won in the five star hotels behind me. You know, that's where the deals are done. That's where peace is done. It's not done on any battlefield. It's not going to be done in Gaza City, it's not going to be done in Eastern Ukraine, you know, and so, yeah, I think people are just feeling shocked that Benjamin Netanyahu has crossed this red line. And we don't really know right now what, what the extent of the fallout is going to be, but it just feels like a huge moment.
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A
President Trump said, I'm very unhappy, very unhappy about every aspect, and we've got to get the hostages back. You know, very unhappy. It feels like moderated language. And it kind of reminds you that Netanyahu sort of seems to be able to do whatever he wants in this Trump administration. I think that was backed up by a statement from the Ambassad to Israel. Mike Huckabee in a convert, in a interview with NBC News's Richard Engel, he said, quote, countries make decisions based on what they think their best interests are. And that doesn't mean everyone agrees. And according to NBC sources, they say that the US had very little notice of this strike and made it clear that America was not directly involved because like you said, typically they would be involved as Qatar is an ally, it has its largest military base. And I just think this shows that they have little to no grip on what is happening in the war anymore, that President Trump has pretty much ceded all power over to Israel.
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B
Yeah, you know, I think that is probably accurate. TABLE I feel like Donald Trump is pissed off here. I think he's super pissed off that Benjamin Netanyahu has crossed this red line and put him in such a difficult position with a key American ally for several reasons. One, that Qatar was playing this really important mediator role between Israel and Hamas trying to broker some sort of ceasefire, which Donald Trump has said so many times he wants, he doesn't like war. He wants to see a peace deal done. So not only is it that they were playing that really critical, important role, it's also the fact that this has, as we were saying, for decades, been an off limits safe zone where enemies can meet, they can do deals, and peace can potentially be made and has been made. The Taliban held their talks here with America and before America withdrew during Donald Trump's first presidency to do a deal over Afghanistan. And then also the fact that, you know, this is a huge military, American military presence here in Qatar. Al U Daid, the American air base is just like 30 minutes drive from where I am now. And I think for Donald Trump, it just put him in a very difficult situation diplomatically. And I think the question is like, you know, they didn't give America hardly any warning by the sounds of it. It certainly doesn't sound like they asked for permission. They just advised the White House this was happening, it was a done deal. And I guess the question is, has Donald Trump lost control of Benjamin Netanyahu? Is he now rogue, or is Donald Trump choosing to allow things to happen because that report in the Wall Street Journal, which described Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu as having a heated phone call where he sounds really pissed off that this has happened. Donald Trump also said to him, well, was the attack successful? You know, Donald Trump likes wins. Right? And they haven't been successful. They didn't take out Hamas leadership in this airstrike that they say, you know, that was their intention. They wanted to take out the leadership of Hamas here in Doha. They didn't. They took out five middle ranking members of the group and a guy who was working for the Qatari security services, a local, you know, that's gone down like a lead balloon, as you can imagine. And I guess you just have to say, well, was it worth it? You've caused this huge diplomatic fallout because you didn't succeed in doing what you wanted to do. And then the other big question right now is, well, will Israel try and do it again and is Donald Trump even able to stop them?
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A
No, I think you're right. They've broken the seal in a lot of ways with this attack and.
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B
Sorry it's so hot here.
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A
No, it's okay.
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B
I, I need to put my hair up. It's so humid.
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A
Yeah, this is part of working on the front lines. Get a little hot, right? Just a touch.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
No, no, no, I mean, listen, I think you're right. There's. It feels like President Trump has sort of put his hands up in the air. I feel the same way about what happened in Poland. I mean, 19 drones flying over Poland, like substantially Russian drones flying over Poland. And Trump says what happened? Or something along those lines, like very blase, as, you know, as Poland goes into NATO Article 4 negotiations with members and President Trump is saying what happened? You know, what's going on here? It's like he's given up all power to other world leaders. And, you know, President Trump was elected president partially because he was seen as a strong leader on, stronger leader than certainly Biden on the world stage. But he seems to be okay with being dragged around by various people that he tries to negotiate with.
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B
I think my take on it is that Donald Trump definitely is a stronger leader on the world stage than Biden. You're right. I mean, there's loads of people who say, oh, you know, Russia would never have invaded Ukraine had Trump been in power because he's slightly crazy and people are slightly scared and they wouldn't, are scared of him and they wouldn't know how he was going to react. But by the same token, he's ripped up international norms. He does things very differently. He does deals very differently, he does diplomacy very differently. And therefore, I think leaders like Vladimir Putin and Benjamin Netanyahu feel like they can get away with things that they wouldn't normally be able to, like flying drones into Poland, a NATO country, like bombing a friendly nation, cattle. You know, these are things that would never happen normally, but to. Potentially, they feel that they can get away with it now because they've got a leader in the White House who sees the world differently and who does things differently.
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A
Obviously, you and I have been working almost two decades as journalists. So I have to ask you, being based in the Middle east, living in Dubai, do you have any fears about that incursion and what that could mean for your own safety?
- [11:48]
B
I think a lot of people are beginning to feel a bit uneasy. Certainly not that, you know, it's not. It's not becoming unsafe to live in Dubai at all. It's one of the safest countries in the world. But then this place also prides itself on being one of the safest countries in the world. Okay, so I interviewed the Taliban when I was here, right? I did it in a hotel room here in Doha. There was never a moment where I felt at risk or unsafe, right, because this is. This is a neutral zone where people can come and talk to terrorist groups and hear them try and, you know, get vital information that as a journalist, you then share with the world and try and understand both sides, right? There was never for. Never for a moment did I ever feel at risk doing that. Never for a moment or I ever felt at risk reporting here. But like that Hamas residence, which was a well known residence, it was well known that Hamas members who were part of the political wing of the group stayed in that building downtown, not far from where I am, right? In an area where there's loads of apartments, loads of big villas, loads of embassies. And I think journalists like myself would go there and interview them. You know, I mean, and now that building's been bombed by Israel, would I now maybe think twice about going to interview Hamas there? Yeah, I would. And I think people who live here are, like, really rattled by it. I interviewed the foreign. The spokesperson for the Foreign Ministry here. He was furious. Dr. Al Ansari, a senior figure in the Qatari government, says Benjamin Netanyahu has crossed a red line and there will be consequences. As a father living here in Qatar, that moment was a moment of reckoning for me and for all my countrymen and people who reside here in Qatar where our lives were at risk because of the narcissistic and personal ambitions of a political operator who wants to throw the whole region into chaos. On X, he essentially wrote the night that it happened, he wrote, you know, I'm paraphrasing, you know, don't believe for a second that we were given any sort of warning. We got a phone call from an American official 10 minutes after the first explosion went off here in Doha, right. So there was, there was so little warning. Now, I don't think that that's because the White House delayed telling Qatar. I think that that's because Israel didn't tell the White House with much warning at all. And I think the big question is, I guess is could the American military have stopped that attack from happening? They've got a huge air base here, very sophisticated radars, air defense systems. Surely they saw that coming in. Now, was it that they didn't have the authority to do anything about it. They had to call the White House, get a sign off from the commander in chief. Maybe they didn't have enough warning, who knows? I don't know how it works, I'm not a military expert expert, but I do know that America has the most advanced systems in the world and I would be shocked if they hadn't seen that that was happening. So is it a question of there wasn't enough time to do anything about it, they didn't have the authority or they let it happen, who knows?
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A
And how does Hamas see this? Is this like a serious provocation to go after them on what they consider neutral grounds?
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B
Look, I think we can extend, expect a response for sure. Not only does it mean that those ceasefire talks are ruined over, you know, the Foreign Ministry said to me, they are not even viable right now. You know, they were getting fairly close to potentially pushing through the so called Trump deal. That's why these, this group was here. They'd apparently traveled here from Turkey and they were looking at Donald Trump's ceasefire proposal. That was why they were here in Doha when their building was bombed. Right. I think you can bet your bottom doll to be a response, right? I mean, you saw that horrendous attack in Jerusalem on, on Monday. It feels, it feels like weeks ago, but it was only a few days ago where Hamas have claimed responsibility for that, where gunman got onto a bus in Jerusalem in the middle of the day and killed six people, injured loads more. I mean, shocking, terrifying. And I, unfortunately, I think you can expect to see more of that sort of thing, thing that bus attack, according to Benjamin Netanyahu, and, you know, some of the comments that have been coming out Jerusalem, that was the pretext for carrying out this attack here in Qatar. But, you know, they didn't succeed in taking out anyone significant. And the Israeli ambassador to the US has since said, if we didn't succeed, we'll try again. And the question is, where will that attempt be? Will it be back here on Qatari soil? Well, interestingly, Qatar won't be drawn on their future relationship with Hamas. I asked if they would continue to allow Hamas to have an office here and a residence here in the country, and they said that they still hadn't made those decisions, but those decisions would be made in partnership with America. And potentially, I think something that we could see happening here is that America will encourage Qatar to ask Hamas to leave, to essentially tell them to relocate their political office elsewhere. And then you could potentially see another attempt by Israel, but America won't want it to happen here.
- [17:18]
A
Thank you so much, Sally, for this dispatch. Please be safe as you make your way back to Dubai. As always, I feel so lucky to have this sort of source on the ground who's also just so happens to be a friend. So please be safe and let's check in next week. We shall see how this all unfolds.
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B
It's always so nice to see you when I'm in a crazy place. Tea. It feels like a bit of therapy as well as seeing a friendly face. So great to see you, and I'm sorry I'm so sweaty. I'll see you soon.
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A
No, no, no. We are people, after all. Right, so. All right, Sal.
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B
Bye, guys.
- [17:59]
A
That was another episode of the Tower of Palmieri Show. I want to thank my team, Eric Abenate, my producer, for getting this together and for everyone else who makes the Tara Palmeri show possible. And I hope you will all share this with your friends. Leave a comment like subscribe Whatever it is you do, you can go to the Tara Palmeri show on YouTube. That's @Tara Palmeri at T A R A P A L M E R I and subscribe. If you want to watch these shows, you can also subscribe to my newsletter, the Red Letter, where you can get my journalism straight to your inbox and support independent journalism. See you again soon.