← The Tara Palmeri Show
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A Mochi moment from Mark, who writes,
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I just want to thank you for making GLP1s affordable.
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What would have been over $1,000 a
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month is just $99 a month with mochi.
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Money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight.
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Three months in and I have smaller
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jeans and a bigger wallet.
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You're the best. Thanks, Mark. I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health.
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To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com
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Mark is a Mochi member, compensated for his story.
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By the way, I'm texting with Michael Wolf right now. A little bit of a one of those dot dot docs. We've been messaging all morning because I'm going to break some news on the show. So for everybody who's on the show, like stay tuned. I'm going to explain to you exactly how Michael Wolf is still actively trying to monetize those tapes that he's holding on to. By the way, those hundreds of hours of tapes which would really reveal the true extent of his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Welcome back to Tara Palmeri show. Michael Wolfe wants you to believe he was documenting Jeffrey Epstein. But what if he was actually protecting him? For nearly two decades, Wolf wasn't just reporting on Epstein. Newly uncovered emails in the Epstein files show how he was helping him manage the scandals by discrediting survivors, burying the reporting that existed, revealing that Jeffrey Epstein was in fact the sex offender. He was trying to help him shape media narratives, gave him advice, offered him access to high powered media executives who could help bury the story, and he tried to rehabilitate his image after jail. Now Wolf is trying to position himself as the man exposing the devil, as he likes to call him. But there's a question hanging over all of this. If these tapes that Wolf is holding onto, 100 hours of interviews with Jeffrey Epstein are so important to the public good, then why won't he release the raw recordings? Why is it important that he package them inside of a project that he controls, a documentary, editing out any narratives that might make him look frankly complicit? Why does it have to be carefully curated excerpts? Is it because the unfiltered tapes would reveal just how close Michael Wolf really was his to Jeffrey Epstein? Tonight, we break down the relationship Wolf never fully admitted to and the exclusive new reporting that I have on the tapes that he's trying to monetize to this day, years after Epstein's death. Welcome to the Red Letter, the Tara Palmari show. We have a very special guest, Ellie Leonard, who is an incredible dogged reporter who has been working on the Epstein story and has really honed in on something that has long. I don't know if the word is aggravation, but maybe that is what it is that I feel about Michael Wolf. But Michael Wolf, famous journalist who a lot of people in the business, as as many of you know, I was in legacy media for, you know, 18 years. There's always been a lot of suspicion around him. His methods, his sourcing, how close he gets to, to journalists, to his, to his subjects. And I think the Epstein files reveal, you know, how he does his work. I mean, SNL like had this amazing. You remember that one after Fire and Fear, the book that he made $13 million on. It's like it. Was it true? Well, did you like it? Did you like it? Fred Armisen saying, playing Michael Wolf, does it matter if it's true? Did you like it? You got the gist, so shut up. You know, even the stuff that's not true, it's true. Kind of want to start with the one line that really just like jumped out at me from your piece, which everyone should go out and read. The only conclusion I can reach about Michael Wolfe is that he was in it for himself. And the platform he's been given now to out his buddy Epstein, who he calls devil, is one of hypocrisy and even cruelty toward the women he ignored, steamrolled and discredited in the name of glory.
- [04:08]
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I, I had these moments along the way as I was doing this, because I've been diving into his writing and his emails and everything since about November, so about six months. And you know, I have these moments where I go, you know, what am I doing? I just got here and he's somebody who's not beloved. I've learned along the way, he's not beloved. There's not a lot of love lost for Michael Wolf. He has been pretty cutthroat in dealing with other journalisms and how he approaches writing. But you know, there was this moment where he came to substack where we go, oh great. You know, he, he does know probably more about Epstein than most people. Now we're going to get that information now. This investigation is going to move along. I've known for a long time he had all these interviews, you know, a hundred hours with Epstein when the most that Epstein wants to talk about is Donald Trump. So there's gotta be something in these, in these interviews. Um, and so I started looking into his emails. The first ones were kind of like, huh, that's A little uncomfortable. He's not talking like somebody that I would say now is it's out for good and out for, you know, supporting survivors. I'm going to pay attention to this. And so at the time we had, you know, in November, we had these trove of emails that were from the House Oversight Committee that I believe were from the Epstein estate. So we got them a little bit differently and we had kind of this small chunk and I put them together chronologically and I started to get a picture of the relationship that we had. Where I was going, I don't know. I don't know if he's sort of playing the spiral into Epstein's world, but if he's doing it, he's doing a way better job than I feel comfortable with. And then in January, we got this huge trove of emails that came straight through the DOJ where we could search. And I just searched from Michael Wolf in the search bar and I got 18, 30 emails. And, you know, there weren't a whole lot of duplicates. Like, these were all kind of brand new emails every time. And so I just started digging and I started putting these, you know, documents in order and started reading about the relationship they had. And it went so far beyond the name of journalism and writing. And it, it was this machine that was built to steamroll anything in the way of Jeffrey Epstein and his old reputation. It was helping him develop, like, PR teams, like massive, high powered PR teams
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who worked with Harvey Weinstein, by the way.
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Yes, yes. I mean, they're trying to buy New York magazine with Harvey. Harvey Weinstein. He is, like, creating public statements for Epstein to release to discredit survivors and discredit, like, other media outlets. He's trying to get ahead of articles and books that are being released. He's trying to write a book about Epstein. Like, it was this massive PR campaign where you could see that Michael Wolf knew that Epstein was the number one source on information about Donald Trump, which is all he ever wanted. Right. And so he wanted to get everything out of his way so that that vein of information never closed.
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And.
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And Epstein could rise back to the top and Michael Wolfe could go with him. And along the way, he did things that were unethical. He did things that I would argue are illegal, but now he is. He set this whole platform up where he's speaking through the Daily Beast, and, and it's gotten to the point where the Daily Beast is writing articles about Michael Wolf's substack. So it's almost like they are just his Mouthpiece, which is questionable because I really like the Daily Beast. I like their reporting. But the take that they are doing right now, I don't understand. And so now he is writing as this position of, like, oh, I was. I was going to take him down. He's the devil.
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Yeah.
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And.
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And how many decades were you going to take him down, bro?
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Yeah, 20 years later. Like, I don't. I don't understand. Like, he didn't write. He only wrote a small amount of articles.
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Yeah, but first you were going to try to, like, get all of the bad stories about him scrubbed from the Internet before you took him down, right?
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Yes. Like, first you were thousands of dol.
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First you were going to sign an NDA that you would not reveal. Well, you would not share James Patterson's text to his book Filthy Rich, but actually, you gave it to Epstein.
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Yeah. You're like, everything was, you know, and part of this. And I didn't want to be, like, a rumor mill or I didn't want to be catty, but I was like, all these people that are interacting with Michael Wolf in these emails from, you know, New York Magazine and the publishers and different journalists and different people, they had no idea this other side of the conversation was happening where they were being fully discredited. And so I. I sent this entire packet of emails out to these publishers at Little, Brown and Company, and I said, this is the other side of the conversation that you were having with him. As you said, sign this NDA. This information could go nowhere. Epstein was reading all your emails. This, you know, New York Magazine. Here's the discussion of this article where you had Christopher Anderson taking all the photos. Like, here's the other half of this conversation where he was never going to publish that. That was only meant to, you know, either discredit you or puff up Epstein. But he's talking about, you know, Epstein goes, oh, why is there. Why are there these stories about women and sexual activity? I did not approve this in the article. And Michael Wolf goes, oh, our editor's a woman. I'll get rid of those. Don't worry about it. Like that.
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Literally. I mean, and the fact that he personally called them young. Tall. Young girl.
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Like, tall girls, and he called them teenagers. Yeah. In the beginning, he called them teenagers. He recognized that they were teenagers.
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He actually tried to help him get a young assistant from. From Korea. Yeah. To work for him. He. He suggested that he pay off his doorman, who he believed was the leaker, about the fact that all these girls were getting in and out I mean, this guy is actively trying to help him. By the way, I'm texting with Michael Wolf right now. A little bit of a. One of those. We've been messaging all morning because I'm going to break some news on the show. So for everybody who's on the show, like, stay tuned. I'm going to explain to you exactly how Michael Wolf is still actively trying to monetize those tapes that he's holding on to, by the way, those hundreds of hours of tapes which would really reveal the true extent of his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein and what exactly he was doing. And I'll explain to you why it's been a hilarious morning of lies upon lies. And that's the best part about all of this is because person who claims to be a journalist. But yeah, I'm gonna break it all down for you. Some reporting. But I think all of this context is, like, just so helpful, Ellie. And I commend you because, like, it takes a long time to go through 1800 EFTA files and like, that. That is incredible. I mean, his own excuse, you know, you have to suck it up to spit it back out. And I've heard this from other journalists, too. Like, you know, you just have to get cozy with these, like, dirt bags.
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And it's like, yeah, for 20 years.
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No. And you don't. Is it. The story is really worth it. And by the way, like, Epstein was. Was a liar. He lied about a lot of things, too.
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And I just, I feel very deep in my soul that, you know, these conversations that we actually have are starting in 2009. I know that there were many, many more that we did not have. So I don't know what are in those. I don't know if they're emails. I don't know if they were phone calls. But this is right after he got out of jail the first time. And, you know, we. We didn't have this sort of press that really did anything until 2018, right? When, when he went back to jail in 2019. That could have happened so much sooner, right? That could have happened right after he got out of jail. This investigation could have reopened and we could have all paid attention the way we are paying attention now. But for Michael Wolf, right, He made sure that we didn't get that information. Those articles weren't written the, you know, like, everything he got in front of. And you talk about, like, you know, the ethics of journalism. And do we subpoena journalists or do we investigate journalists?
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Right.
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You know, do we do that? Is that Right. But, you know, you will talk to most journalists and they say you do not accept lunch from people if you know that they are somebody who is doing illegal activity. If they are doing, you know, something where you're reporting on, like in an investigatory way. You don't like, go to their home. There are things you don't do. And this man was like traveling with him to his properties and eating lunch at his house and dinner at his house and spending time with his family and like, you know, talking about the island. I don't know if he went to the island, but he was invited to the island. Right. So like, there it is so far beyond the bounds of what we would consider good or safe or ethical journalism. But also, you know, since, since this moment when Donald Trump went after the journalist, I think at the, was it at the Washington Post who, you know, the FBI came to the journalist door and then, and then they have since gotten a Pulitzer. When that moment happened, Michael Wolf said that he took all of his information and he put it in a secure location. So now we don't even know, you know, where these interviews are, where this, you know, half a book potentially that he has written is. We don't know where any of that information is. And so should someone try to subpoena him, it is probably not on his hard drive anymore and it's probably been moved. Just like Epstein moved all his hard drives to off site locations, Michael Wolf has now moved all of his information somewhere else.
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Yeah. So for everyone who's joined, I'm not going to keep dangling what I have been working on, what I've heard. Okay. So Michael Wolf obviously has these tapes and he claims that no one wants them. Right, Ellie? I mean, he's.
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I will take them. I will take them today. Yeah.
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Wants them. And there are a lot of questions over whether tape should be subpoenaed. Right. Or whether, like as a journalist, I understand that there are questions too over relationships with your source. Right. Like do it after death. Woodward believe that after death he could reveal Bob Woodward that he could reveal who felt was Deep Throat.
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Right.
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Everyone has a different take. I would say the person is a known pedophile and you actually were actively helping them to evade, to, to, to actually thwart that activity. Maybe you would want to give this information up in the public interest. Clearly, that is not Michael Wolf's agenda. His agenda has been to monetize these tapes, as I have learned. So this summer before he was working with the Daily Beast officially, when he was just a regular commentator on Joanna Coles's show, by the way. Um, yeah, he. I'm enjoying this because he just keeps sending me, like, straight out lies. But he does it in a way that's like, cute. So I'm going to break that all down for everybody. Read his texts. So he. He tried to have these. He tried to have a package and into a documentary with the Daily Bees that was like going to produce it and do all of it for him. Right. So now he's a he. Now he, like, has a sort of monetary contract with the Daily Beast. They ultimately did not produce it. I have a statement from the Daily Beast to be clear, because this morning, Michael Wolf, in classic Michael Wolf fashion, denied, said I was full of misinformation and nonsense. But Daily Beast said there was. That there was a discussion for a project that never went anywhere. They were at no time purchasing the special. Pay attention to the word raw tapes. Because this is what Michael Wolf is saying. Raw tapes. And when you think about the word raw tapes, what they're trying to say, essentially I'm deducing and I think this is fair to say. And this is what. This is what Michael Wolf keeps leaning on the word raw tapes. He's not gonna. He's not willing to give up all the tapes. He won't give these news organizations all the tapes. Now, he didn't start with the Daily Beast. He's been going around to various other news outlets trying to sell these tapes for a very long time. Not attached.
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Very high price.
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Yeah, high price. Not attached to a producer. Right. But would not hand over all of the tapes. There's also the concerns that, like, Jeffrey Epstein is a liar and he makes things like he does exaggerate and make things up. And so some news outlets, I have been told through my sources were concerned about that as well. Okay. But there has been no period of time in which Michael Wolf was like, I am going to publish these tapes for the good of society. Like you said, you could have put it on a substack and made money. I know now that he is still trying to sell these tapes. Now he can't sell because he can't sell them in full because he wants to hold on to some of them for reasons that. Which I'll ask him right now. Why do you need to hold on to all of the tapes? Why can't you just release them all on substack?
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Put a.
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Put a paywall on them, just release them all. And he does. He sent me some quote earlier, which I'll explain. We can go through all the Michael Wolf stuff. And is there something you're holding back? You know, that's the question.
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Yes, that is my belief. 100% is. He does not have. So here's my thoughts on that. Sorry to interrupt.
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Do you want me to go through Michael's stuff or you.
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Yeah, yeah, go through, go through. Go through.
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Comment first, and then I'll start from the top.
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So my belief is that he wanted to monetize this. Now, since the emails have come out, he realizes that he could be very culpable or at least his reputation. Right? That's the currency. His reputation could be smeared by what is said in these. In these files. He, you know, along with not being able to get a contract from anybody major news source, as I've done this process, I learned that he's not super popular. Right. He's an arrogant guy. He's a narcissist. He fits right into this kind of club of men. And not a lot of people enjoy working with Michael Wolfe. That is why also, there are not a lot of outlets that are jumping at the chance to take on a project with him. But also he now has these. These files. And I will tell you, as a transcriber, because that is my side business, going through and listening to a hundred hours, transcribing them, writing them up, whatever, is a lot of work. My guess is Michael Wolf hasn't done that on his own. But he also is really nervous about hiring someone else to listen to them and do that for him because he doesn't want anything leaked. And so I think he's in over his head with these files. Like, he has probably not listened to all 100 hours, and he's probably nervous about what's in them and doesn't want to just hand them off to somebody and assume that everything will be okay for him. Because I'm guessing that it wouldn't be.
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A
I mean, he could upload them into AI or something like that.
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B
He could. He could. But.
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A
Yeah. Okay, here's what he said. He said he's ret texting me something that he sent me this morning. He said, I don't believe in the veracity of raw files. That's.
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B
That's insane. Okay, go on.
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A
In this version of Truth Seeking, all police files should be open and every journalistic and every journalist. Notes and interviews on the public record. That's obviously nonsense. Person's dead now, Michael. You're not protecting the source anymore. And this person was a pedophile. I'd argue that the release of the so called Epstein. I'm sorry, I'm dropping in my own commentary, but I'll go back. You could do it all the way through. I'd argue that the release of the so called Epstein files. So called. They're Epstein files.
- [19:14]
B
He says that a lot. He does say that a lot.
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My own commentary and excuse me, is a monstron. Is a monstrosity, illiberal act, willy nilly compromising people's privacy, unearthing all kind of irrelevant material and wildly confusing the context of the information that is being presented.
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He doesn't like that. He thinks the Epstein file's a bunk. He thinks they're. They're ridiculous. And yes, that was very relevant in his conversation.
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A
I'm not a television personality. My interviews weren't made to be broadcast, although my back to my reporting. He is actively shopping a narrative documentary right now in which he would be as was.
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B
As he was before.
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But yes, they were meant to aid me in telling the Epstein story, which is. Which I have written about extensively in the past and which I am now telling on a strict timeline from when I met him until he died. On subject. A new chapter every. I'm not going to promote this. Yeah, yeah, okay, but you. I'm just going to say, but you are shopping a narrative doc that includes the podcast that would make you a broadcaster. Yes, the podcast. The, the. The. Sorry, the. The emails that would make you a broadcaster also. You have a podcast.
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B
Well, and he was. He was speaking to cinematographers with Epstein during the period of their relationship.
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A
I know.
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B
Talking about Netflix.
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You and. You and you and Epstein were talking about Netflix. And this is kind of fun. I mean, in a weird way, but the truth, it's also very, like, irritating because he is. He has a really hard time with the truth. Okay, let me go back up. Let me start from the top. Okay. Then I say, why were you willing to have them produced by the Daily Beast? He says, you are full of misinformation in the past. And now I say, no, I'm not. They were hiring producers to produce your tapes for a series this summer. You've openly admitted in the past that you've tried to have them published and no one wanted them. He says to me, not true, but feel free to ask Joanna, Which I did. I asked Joanna Coles. He said, once again, there was never. There has never been an agreement, a plan or an agreement to publish my raw tapes. And he's really leaning on the word raw tapes, meaning all of my tapes. So he's playing semantics like, this is not an honest. Now, JC confirms.
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B
She.
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Com. She confirmed you're saying what you're saying or yakking about. Okay.
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And I love his wording. He does this a lot.
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He said, I should have no idea what you're. Joanna says you. I should have had no idea what you're asking. But that's not true because they. I have a bit. Daily Beast spokesperson on the record. After speaking to her, I don't understand why that was her default either, to just. She's a journalist.
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B
Yeah. They've been friends for, like, 25 years.
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So that I. I also wonder, like, why is she continuing to give him this platform? It's not gone.
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B
I wonder why the Daily Beast is. But I think Joanna Coles is very high up at the Daily Beast, and so thus they're kind of doing her bidding and she's doing his bit. She's sort of doing for him what he did for Epstein. She knows. I mean, I've talked to her and she gave me kind of the answer in the can of like, well, we talked about those uncomfortable emails back in November, and this is his answer that he gave me. And we've released pieces of the interviews and I was like, yeah, you've released like, four, and they're all under 10 minutes. And you have a hundred hours of those interviews. So it's like, that doesn't cut it for me. But also, those emails that you're referring to are compared to what we have now are relatively, like, tame. You know, they were still bad, but they were tame compared to the ones that we have now. And so I said, here, look, I'm going to send you the entire email thread. You don't have to respond to me. You know, I just want to know that you have it and you know what's in here. And I sent it to her because, I mean, there are really. There are points in there where he's saying that he wants to trade information that he's learned with all these interviews he's given in the White House. He wants to then go meet with the Saudis and trade the information. He's met 100% off the record. He's like, let me. Let me go meet those guys. And Epstein was very, very close with mbs Mohammed bin Sulaim, you know, the guy who then killed Khashoggi. Like, they were all very tight, and Michael Wolf wanted a piece of that. He was willing to trade information that he was not supposed to have off the record. And that is like, one of the most damning pieces for me. That I have tried to like, yell from the rooftop.
- [23:42]
A
He also isn't a registered foreign agent.
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B
Yes, well. And he shouldn't be involved in all this.
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A
He. That is the activity of a registered foreign agent and. Or spy.
- [23:52]
B
Yeah. And he's. He's meeting at the UN Dinners at Epstein's house where he's bringing in all these world leaders. Like, there's just things that are so uncomfortable and inappropriate. And you know why he's there? I don't understand. Because it's not like he's like writing for the New York Times and he's there to get a story and then he leaves. Like, he's just there for everything. He's there for every dinner, and he's like meeting with every person. He's like, hey, can I get in on that? And he's like, yeah, I got a. I got a dinner.
- [24:16]
A
Gates. He asked me. Okay. He flies on the plane. Okay. I've seen then some sneakers.
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B
This is sneakers.
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A
Okay. And you're. Last time I checked, you're not even allowed to accept sneakers. You also shouldn't be buying a newspaper when then.
- [24:32]
B
And then Epstein's like, we need to talk about a financial package. You know, can you be my ghostwriter? And Wolf is like, oh, I'm allergic to talking about money. And which is so.
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A
I mean, he really hilarious Are so much strong. Something that have so much more value. Okay. Yeah. I asked him, are you refusing a subpoena? He said, first, you can't refuse a subpoena. You can refuse to comply with a subpoena. Do you see what I'm saying about
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B
the semantic being smarter than you? Yeah.
- [24:56]
A
Really annoying. Michael, we can. All through you. I've had a lot of discussions with many media outlets about telling these Epstein story using my tapes. But there's been a decided lack of interest. I am though ever hopeful and easy to contact that will be revealed. I cannot tell the entire story because I about this because for various reasons. But he is actively shopping another.
- [25:16]
B
Oh, yeah, I'm sure he's writing a book about this.
- [25:18]
A
No, no, it's not a book documentary. And it is. It is hitched on with a major documentary with a major producer. They are actively selling it right now at this moment. Okay.
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B
They are shopping it around.
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A
So yeah.
- [25:36]
B
So he's trying to monetize it.
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A
Now. The. The thing that the. The interesting thing about the idea that like, he can't just put. Like you mentioned. Why doesn't he just put it on his sub stack and put a paywall on it right? He can't because it has to have his voice, like as a edit. He needs to edit out all the bad, essentially.
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B
Probably.
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A
Do you not, like I'm going to say, do you not want to give the. I mean that's something for him to respond to. Do you not want all of the raw files published because you're worried about how you, how you appear?
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B
Yeah. Tell him I'll give him five bucks if he needs a place to unload
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A
because you are concerned about your own appearance in the tapes. Hey guys. Lately I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day. I lean into pieces that feel effortless and comfortable, but I still need to look put together. After all, I am running a media company and that's why Quint has become my go to. It just makes getting dressed simpler because the fabrics are elevated, the fits are flattering and everything just works without having to overthink it. I have been wearing the 100% washable silk slip dress all the time. I have it in navy and I plan to buy it in champagne. It just looks elevated and you can wear it with a blazer or jean jacket however you want to wear it. Flats or high heels. It's just sort of a staple in my wardrobe and I can't get enough of it really. It is such high quality silk. And the best part is you don't have to drop it off at the dry cleaner afterwards. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com Tara for free shipping on your order and 365 days of returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Quince. Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Tara for free shipping and 365 days of returns. Quince.com Tara and of course when they ask you how you found out about us, please say you heard about it here. He wouldn't get on the phone with me. For what it's worth. Worth.
- [27:46]
B
No, no, I'm sure.
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A
And then yeah, I. This whole idea that nobody wants it is, is ridiculous. He's there. He's just hasn't stopped trying. Like he's just. The daily. Didn't go forward with it. They didn't ultimately, no.
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B
But he said that's smart of them. I mean that shows that they still have some integrity because, you know, there were. He has tried to do multiple documentaries,
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A
put him on a show every single day. So I don't know.
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B
Right. Which. Yeah, I know. Yeah. But like he was trying to do a fire and Fury series through Netflix that ended getting squashed that they were actually already taping. And he was like flying out to the west coast for. But like, I don't know.
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A
I.
- [28:32]
B
He doesn't, he. He has so much information. And I also feel like part of the reason that he doesn't want these tapes released is he gathered so much information on Donald Trump. He gathered information from Jeffrey Epstein about the past. He gathered the present day by going in and interviewing 200 different interviews in the White House. And then he met Steve Bannon, got along with Steve Bannon and got all the, like, current dish. And I think if he feels like if he gives up these interviews, that door will effectively close for any future Trump information, which is all he really wants to write about ultimately. And so I don't think he wants to close that door because I know, I know there's information about Donald Trump on those tapes. That is the one thing that Jeffrey Epstein was willing to talk about openly and not filter himself. And so I think that he's worried about what, what door that will effectively shut for him.
- [29:22]
A
Some of the things he. Yeah, I mean, he's. Some of the things about Donald Trump on those tapes are really shocking.
- [29:29]
B
He's seen the photos, he saw photos from the safe, like, reported nothing. You know, his ethics are gone.
- [29:36]
A
Deanna Rushing acts. What do you think of the, of the pop up library in New York? Yeah, you went there, Ali. How was that?
- [29:42]
B
Okay. You know, it wasn't what I expected, I will say, because I think, I think the way they. I thought I dreamed this and I was like, wait, I thought somebody said it was gonna be a little bit more like, funny or like irreverent. Yeah, or just something like that with like the idea of Trump and Epstein and all that stuff. And it, it wasn't, it wasn't whatsoever. When I went in, it was very somber and it was very quiet. It felt like a funeral. I think the intent behind the library itself itself is to see the size of this investigation, like to have a physical imagery of how much information we are dealing with. It is two stories, wall to wall of these massive. I think there's 3,000 something massive binders full of information. They're all 800 pages each. It just shows you the intensity of how much information we have. Like, this is not all the information that exists, but what we have at this point. And, and there were, there were places for you to like, write notes, you know, with the intent that probably survivors are going to stop by and see the notes or. But it was it was very like locked down and secure. You had to have a reservation. There's like a security team at the front. You have to like have your identification in order to go in. But it was a very, it was much quieter and a much darker experience than I expected it to be. I thought it was going to be a little bit of like, almost like an onion experience, like between Epstein and, and Trump and, And a little bit of the like, you know, terrible hilarity of their relationship together over the years. But it wasn't at all. It was very, it was almost like walking into a mausoleum.
- [31:30]
A
Yeah. I mean, I saw that from the videos and I, I was really captivated by your video. It was cool that you went. I, you know, I have, I have mixed feelings about it, which I think I said, like, I think that there needs to be a true memorial and I think like, it needs to be something that's not a pop up memorial. Like, I don't know how long they're going to be able to keep this place in Tribeca available because it is funded by a pack.
- [31:58]
B
Yeah.
- [31:59]
A
And that alone kind of irks me a bit. Like, I, like I under, I respect and understand the need to keep the, like the story on Jeffrey Epstein and obviously the fact that the president of our president United States was so prominently featured in the files. Friend of Jeffrey Epstein has been accused by survivors of Jeffrey Epstein. And it's. But like, I do think like when it's being used, just like, like when it's being kind of like it's called the Trump Jeffrey Epstein Library, like there's
- [32:31]
B
a little, I think they meant for it to be a little bit more because like on their website I went back and they said it's a funny experience. And then I went, I was like, that was not funny. Like it's very serious.
- [32:41]
A
Yeah. I don't know, there's something like I, I get a little annoyed by the politi. I hate this word. It's always really hard to say.
- [32:48]
B
Politicization.
- [32:50]
A
Politicization. It's very difficult for me. I have a, I get really annoyed with that aspect of the story because I think that's a really big part of the reason why no one cared in 2019. They didn't see the gravity of the story. It was tribal. Like it was a tribal story.
- [33:07]
B
And I think, I think it's. There's a separation of. There's no two versions of this story. It's all one big story with the survivors at the center. I think maybe the intent of the pop up Library is to, is to look more at it objectively from the investigation legal standpoint and just to see the enormity of how big this case is because it's a physical imagery of like, holy cow, this is humongous. Like, I don't, I, I'm not a lawyer, you know, I don't work on a lot of cases. I don't know any case that would have this many files involved with it. And I think maybe for that reason, you know, it's good for people to see like in a room. How big is this case? Well, it's two stories, it's shelves all the way to the back. I do think that like, maybe the idea of, of a memorial for the survivors and for the people we've lost and so that, you know, just the trauma, like that loss through trauma is a separate experience. But it, I think just, it's so hard to separate those two ideas. At least for me in my mind when I walked in there, you know, just seeing that many files. Cause like, I know what's in them. I've read a lot of them and it's just like seeing them all is really devastating. But then from like a nerdy, like, academic side of things, like, I was like, man, I could pull up a beanbag and a highlighter in here and just like go through these and, and I think that would, the idea of having like paper versions of all the files to like flip through and like, get information would be really helpful. But I do, I do understand what you're saying that it, you know, we need to do more because this, I think it just goes till the end of May. I think it's just a one month experience. I don't know if it will.
- [34:52]
A
Yeah, I want like, I want those resources to be used on a true, like, cement memorial that people can go to.
- [35:02]
B
Yeah.
- [35:02]
A
And pay their respects.
- [35:03]
B
Yeah.
- [35:04]
A
And like, I don't want any, like Trump Epstein. Like, this is the Epstein survivors memorial. Like, this is a story. This is about the women who have been, who have been. So many of them have been hurt and not always by President Trump, like, you know, not all of them. And obviously he's dismissive of them and does not and that is compounding the pain, obviously. But I do think, like, in some way the story needs to be focused on them in a, in, in a way. And, and that, that like, don't use them as a way to get a dig in at Trump. Do you know what I mean?
- [35:43]
B
Well, and I think, I think it's like the idea of when we have one of these mass shootings like that, we don't talk about the shooter all the time.
- [35:49]
A
Yeah.
- [35:49]
B
You know what I mean? Like, do you talk about the people who are lost? And I think ultimately, if we get this case right and we convict the right people who need to be convicted and they go to jail or they lose everything or they have the right consequence for their actions, then we move them out of the story and we make it just about the women who stood up for 30 years and didn't give up and continued to be hurt by not only these original people, but by the public and by the FBI, that the story and ultimately whatever happens at the end is only about them. And then everything else can fade away. Once they have gone to jail, once they have disappeared, once they have died, all these bad actors can fade away and we can just focus on the survivors.
- [36:33]
A
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- [37:05]
B
But I agree.
- [37:06]
A
So we still have a lot of questions on Michael Wolf. So people aren't done.
- [37:10]
B
Go for it.
- [37:12]
A
Deanna Rushing saying, oh, sorry that we add Deanna. Donna Nona said, which I love that name, by the way. Donna Nona, like the most Italian name ever. Why would he be dismissive of the Epstein files if he was himself doing research on Epstein?
- [37:28]
B
He wasn't doing research on Epstein. The only research he was ever doing on Epstein was to build Epstein's credibility back into the public spectrum and on the global scale with all these major leaders because he felt that that opened up opportunities for him as well. If you look at every letter they sent from the beginning of time and that Michael Wolf was sending to other people, there, there is no indication. And you could say, oh, well, he's just a really great spy. He was spying on, you know, Epstein and he was a really good actor. But this is 20 years of him hanging out and eating lunches and traveling with families and buying gifts for each other. And he was writing about Epstein and he was, you Know, ultimately, there are letters where he's discrediting Virginia Giuffret, where he's discrediting Jane does, where he's discrediting the entire British media for being gullible for believing these Jane does accusations. Like, he was never in it to help survivors or believe them. And so when he. He calls these the so called Epstein files now, it's because that's really what he believes. That's his gut response. He doesn't believe that they're real files. He doesn't believe they're real accusations. He believes the same thing that he always believed when he was with Epstein is that he's a guy who was a ladies man. He liked the ladies. He liked what they called a rub and tug and foot massages. And there's no problem with that. Why should we, why should we be all over this guy about that?
- [38:56]
A
Yeah, he liked the ladies, but actually he was okay. What they were. That they were girls. Yeah, right.
- [39:00]
B
Well. And he okay with that. Part of going through these emails is you start to see the psychology of Epstein and how he never, ever wanted to be alone. He was afraid to be alone, whether that was online in these conversations, or in his own home. You see, as he talks to Michael Wolf, if Michael Wolf doesn't respond in time, Epstein will write back with just like, question marks like, why, why aren't you answering my emails? Like, respond to me. And so he was the same way in his home. He constantly had to have people walking around his house. He could not be alone. He was afraid to be alone. And so if you were in his home for any significant amount of time, you would have seen these groups of girls walking around the house. Like, there's no way to go to Epstein's house and have it be empty. And there would always have been young assistants, young girls coming after school. Like, you know, they come. He would. He would have them pick them up after practice. Like, you know, he's paying tuition at all these, like, private schools around New York City. Like, there's no way that Michael Wolfe could have missed that by spending a single afternoon at Epstein's house, let alone 20 years.
- [40:04]
A
No, he's like, he's telling. He's telling him to pay off the doorman to stop leaking about what's going on inside the house. He knows what's going on inside the house. Kat asks, did he ever give that GoFundMe money back? I don't think you can.
- [40:19]
B
No, no. He's in that, you know, if so, backing up Melania Trump threatened to sue him because he mentioned both that Epstein introduced her to Trump and that the first time Trump and Trump and Melania had sex was on Epstein's plane. So she threatened to sue him for a billion dollars. They threaten all the time. He immediately did an anti slap suit, raised a GoFundMe, said, hey, I'm going to do an anti slap. Let's do a gofundme. Raised $830,000 from like substack middle class folks, you know, pennies and dimes and. And now has almost a million dollars to fight a lawsuit that never actually came to fruition. And you can say, well, you know, he has the anti slap suit so he is paying into that whatever. But you have to remember this guy made $13 million on his book. Like the idea that he set up a GoFundMe in the first place for a suit that he himself is bringing is a grift. You know, if he wants to do that, that's fine, but he has the funds to pay for that. He doesn't need substackers to pay his legal bills. Comcast is delivering extraordinary experiences in live sports through the incredible broadcast and storytelling from NBC. Innovative and personalized viewing features on Xfinity
- [41:31]
A
and Peacock and the country's most. The most reliable WI fi viewers can enjoy every game changing play faster and more seamlessly than ever. All in a network built to deliver unforgettable moments as close to live as possible. The ultimate experience for the American sports fan. Learn more@comcastcorporation.com sports I just want to repeat this. I would put him in the. I would put him in the bucket of Epstein collaborator.
- [41:57]
B
Frankly. Yes, I said worse or worse.
- [42:01]
A
He helped him restore his image. Yeah, he gave him advice on how to con like he eventually he never reported him or what he saw or he never reported. Even as a journalist, he helped him to, to restore his image. And then in the end he is acting as if he is the hero on a person that he spent decades with. The devil. Right. And it's now asking people for money. Would anyone give money to an Epstein collaborator?
- [42:32]
B
No, they shouldn't.
- [42:34]
A
I mean like if Glenn Maxwell or someone like that, like not saying he recruited girls, but he didn't help him hire an assistant. God knows what happened to that person.
- [42:43]
B
Yeah, no, he was. No, no. If, if we really introduced him to
- [42:48]
A
new people that could possibly like yeah, Predator.
- [42:52]
B
Yes. They were all about the Rolodex. These people were all about expanding their Rolodex. And you know, he did. He introduced him to Bill Gates, and he rewrote the narrative. And we have to remember that most of this conversation occurred right after Epstein got out of jail the first time, where he was convicted on only two counts. But like that, he had 36 underage accusers in that case alone. All of this, like, he starts the conversation going, like I'm saying, talking you up all over town. Don't worry about it. I'll bring your. You know, I'll bring you back. Your image will be great. This is somebody who saw Epstein as a benefit for him to write books to make money, which he did. He was sending drafts to Epstein of all of his books, and Epstein was giving him information and editing these books. And then Epstein saw him as a benefit because, here's a guy who can help me with my image in the media. And so it was very tit for tat, but they hung on for a very long time with this relationship.
- [43:49]
A
My favorite line is, I mean, not favorite, but like most mind blowing, I think the entire relationship. He's going to write a piece for New York magazine in which he'd be paid $18,000.
- [44:01]
B
Yeah, right.
- [44:02]
A
About Jeffrey Epstein. And of course, as you said, the woman added the line is sexual abuse. Right. You know, he's a sex offender. He can't write a piece about a sex offender without mentioning it. Right. In fact, he went to jail for soliciting a minor for prostitution, which is insane. And Epstein says, yeah, you can't do. You're gonna get me in trouble if you write about me being a sex offender, so let's just drop it. And Michael willfully drops it.
- [44:31]
B
He drops.
- [44:32]
A
He drops. He loses $18,000. But he understands, he calculates that in the long run, when he writes his books and Epstein's his source, he's gonna make way more money.
- [44:40]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [44:41]
A
And. And he's also, at no point was willing to, To. To even introduce the stated. Like, I. If you worked at any news outlet, you could never write a piece about that person. And if they had a criminal conviction, not include that in the piece. Right. Like, he has broken so many journalistic rules. And, and also, like, as journalists, when you get. I know you've worked in transcriptionally, I don't know if you ever worked in as a journalist before, but obviously you're an excellent journalist. But, you know, there's just like these rules that we have, you know what I'm saying? Like, you can't sign an NDA for a book that you're going to get in advance because you're going to Report on it and then pass it off to somebody else. Like that is. Yeah, you can. You can't do that. And he did that.
- [45:35]
B
Yeah. Yes.
- [45:37]
A
He abused relationships with publishers to find out what was being reported on by about Jeffrey Epstein.
- [45:43]
B
Right.
- [45:44]
A
He was. And she was of a PR person under the guise of a journalist.
- [45:48]
B
Yeah, he was. He was the fixer. You know, he was Epstein's fixer. He. He was, you know, and he had a big enough reputation at that time that, like, when he approached, you know, smaller editors at bigger publishers, they were really excited. They're like, oh, Michael Wolf is reaching out. This is so cool. He's interested in this book. But you can see over the course of their interactions that they start to get leery of his intentions because he pushes too hard. Like, he starts asking too many questions in these emails, and you can see them totally cool off and go, hold on. Why are you asking all these questions? And then you can kind of get the idea that they start doing their homework behind the scenes, and they realize that he's way too close to Epstein in order to continue this conversation. But he was. He tried to get out. Like, they talk about James Patterson's book, and they talk about, you know, can they write a book fast enough to get out in front of it, you know, and. And create a counter narrative book in front of it. And. And Michael Wolfe's like, well, I. I don't think we could publish it that fast, but we could start to release, you know, public statements in the media that could counter and discredit this book that's coming out as being, like, hogwash. And then we can write a book really fast after that. That will. That will counter it. So it's. I mean, it's. It's absolutely like, you. You just go, like, what. How much money is Michael Wolf making off of Epstein in this process that he is willing to do all of these things because he was just, like, willing to, you know, throw, you know, throw mom in front of the train in order to get this information from Jeffrey Epstein.
- [47:19]
A
Yeah. So, you know, someone asked Sylvia Goldini asked, why is Wolf not subpoenaed? I have never heard Kana or Garcia mention his name. At least put some pressure on by naming him. That is difficult because, like, you don't generally want to subpoena journalist.
- [47:31]
B
Right. Like that.
- [47:32]
A
Just if you could even call him a journalist, like, I would make the argument.
- [47:36]
B
Yeah, he says he's not a journalist. So I say, that window is open.
- [47:40]
A
There really is no reason not to.
- [47:42]
B
Yeah, but he could at least subpoena the documents. Right.
- [47:47]
A
Or the.
- [47:47]
B
Or the audio without subpoening him as a person. Right, totally.
- [47:52]
A
But there is like a sort of, you know, First Amendment, like, there. There are protections around this. But like I say, I think it's a. The source is dead moral code. Like, this is evidence.
- [48:06]
B
Right. And it's also legality in a case of. Of underage sex abuse. Right. There's. It's not that he was writing an article that he was, you know. You know, he's not a Catholic priest. He's not, like, sitting in a confession. You know what I mean? Like, he's. He's somebody who met with somebody who abused children for 35 years. Right. And has made statements to the fact that he's seen some of this information from the safe in Jeffrey's house and never reported what he's seen and, you know, that kind of thing.
- [48:37]
A
So pain on President Trump's pants, right?
- [48:40]
B
Yeah, yeah, the stain. Like. But I mean, like, I think he said he saw a dozen photos from the safe, you know, so you have to wonder, why were the photos in the safe? But, like, just the fact that he has that information, he is somebody who should be questioned, at least.
- [48:54]
A
Yeah. By the way, you guys can help us keep digging. Ellie, obviously, is a dogged reporter. I just came out with a big piece on John Kerry and his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, which actually I first Learned about in 2019 through Virginia Giuffre, who I could like, who I traveled around the country with, trying to find witnesses to corroborate the story of her abuse. I'm going to continue reporting on that. I have some more leads on how. Just how close they were. So hit the subscribe button to support me and Ellie as we, you know, seek to continue to bring the story with the very limited documents that we actually have, if you think about it. And like, I've always said, the survivors hold the keys to this story, and we're just trying our best to tell it. It like, you know, it's so funny, Ellie, and I don't know if you hear this, but I get this from a lot of people, particularly men. They always say, like, when are you gonna move on from Epstein? When are you gonna move on from Epstein? Epstein. Like, you're like the Epstein whisperer. Because I've, you know, been working on this since 2019, and I'm like. And apparently, you know, a good friend of mine who's a journalist said, tara, don't stop. They said the same thing to Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein. Which I would argue Watergate is not as expansive of a conspiracy.
- [50:07]
B
I don't think anything is.
- [50:08]
A
Yes, and they literally told him to back off. They saw Nixon get reelected. They mocked them for being a bunch of freaks who are obsessed with a break in at a condo. And I think this is like, we have only seen the tip of the iceberg, obviously. Like, I am trying to confirm a lot of the reporting that I've gotten from Virginia. It's really hard.
- [50:32]
B
It's very hard.
- [50:33]
A
It is really, really, really, really hard. It takes a really, really, really long time because we're up against the most powerful people in the world. And I believe that it's going to be on the backs of women like Julie K. Brown. Like the great work. You. This is a, this is our story. And.
- [50:52]
B
Yeah, and I would say, like, I mean, like with a lot of this stuff, like, we need men's support. You know, there's a lot of the response to this is very woman heavy and rightfully so. This is a thing we've been fighting for, you know, beyond the Epstein files for centuries. Like they were trying to break this narrative. And somebody, somebody said the other day, it's like the death rattle of the patriarchy. Which I love that phrase. But you know, the sort of like imagery that I give is, you know, I have four kids. And why it matters to me is I am pushing them out into this world where this has not been fixed yet. Right. If we're still saying move on, you know, people are overreacting, they're being hysterical, as Michael Wolfe has referred to me before. Like, there is one time in my life where my kids were in danger and somebody tried to hurt them. And they will tell you, that is the most experience, explosive, angry I have ever been in my entire life. Like, I scared my own children by my response to that. And that is how women react to this. Like, if you get in front of women who are trying to protect children, you will be fending for your life because we will stop at nothing to make sure that this is fixed so this never, ever happens again. It should never have happened in the first place. But we will stop at nothing to make sure it never happens again.
- [52:20]
A
And I think there is just such a different reaction among a certain class of people that are just like, you know, like Trump said himself, it's going to hurt my friends.
- [52:32]
B
That's all they care about is the currency. It's the popularity is the currency. And they, you know, and, and I don't think anybody who is involved in this case is really scared about whatever acts they had of girls that they are 16, 17 years old. Like they don't think that that is anything, you know, because legally in, in the US there are many, many, many states that consent down to 16 years old. But that is if they're consenting. These girls are not consenting. They are, they are saying that they did not consent and, and, and so they could. They talk about the naughty 90s and like the clubs in New York and like all this stuff. And it's like that it doesn't matter. This is not a case about money laundering. I know people keep freaking out about that. It did occur. That did occur. But the core of this case is the abuse of children. And we cannot continue to prosecute these men around the world for sharing classified information, you know, poor money decisions. Like this is the case of child sex abuse. And if we lose that and we don't pay attention to that, then that cycle continues.
- [53:35]
A
Exactly.
- [53:36]
B
Yep.
- [53:37]
A
I mean, if anything, this is a story that shows you that with enough money you can get away with anything. And we're seeing that still play out right now. It's like the abuse continues every single day and it's compounded every single day.
- [53:49]
B
How many of the conspirators are still walking around going to work every day?
- [53:57]
A
Yeah, sorry. I was looking to see if I got enough Wolf, who continues to deny that he is.
- [54:01]
B
Yeah.
- [54:02]
A
Actively trying to produce, to pitch this project with a major producer that will eventually come to light because.
- [54:10]
B
And then we have text messages.
- [54:14]
A
This guy is really get zero Fs. It's incredible. It is incredible. It's like he, it's like, it's a, it's really. Yeah, I like that. He always calls me a so called journalist or something like that.
- [54:29]
B
He does that a lot. He, he, you know, I don't follow his interviews anymore, but like when people have sent stuff to me, it's, it's always him using language to discredit people. Like, oh, I don't even know who they are. Who are they? They don't even care. They're just armchair investigators or they're opportunists. Like that was the funny one. He called me and a couple of people opportunists. And I was like, I don't have an830,000 GoFundMe. I don't know about you. Like, I don't, I don't have those
- [54:55]
A
opportunities definition of an operator and opportunist. And you know, do you. Lisa Nystrom. Lisa in the house. She's A regular. Woohoo. Do you think Wolf has criminal exposure? I don't know, actually, but I think he definitely has reputational exposure.
- [55:15]
B
Ultimately, he's. He's part of a club. I mean, if you. I am always very careful to say, like, oh, he didn't. You know, I'm not accusing him of sex crimes, but I do think that he liked everybody in this case, was highly aware of Epstein's reputation, and then saw it in action with the people walking around him every day. Like, I mean, the very first time he met him, he said he was curiously, like, surrounded by teenage girls. That's the first thing he noticed and wrote about in an article in 2007. And now he has changed that statement to young women, you know, because he knows that that's the terminology he needs to use, which he also wrote about in one of his books, is how we need to start calling them young women instead of girls, because that will fix them reputationally.
- [56:00]
A
Okay, I'm going to quote Virginia Giuffre from our time together. She said to me, quote, you couldn't be a pizza delivery boy and walk in Epstein's house and not know what's going on. You walk into the houses, naked pictures everywhere, young girls everywhere. Old dude, not married. Like, it's not hard to put two and two together. Really.
- [56:25]
B
Yeah, I mean, I.
- [56:27]
A
She said, here's the other thing. I want to just keep going really quick.
- [56:30]
B
Yeah, go for it.
- [56:32]
A
We would. She said, quote to me, we would, you know, lay out completely naked, 100% naked. Jeffrey did not like tan lines at all. He wanted tan bodies. He wanted petite bodies. He wanted, like, pre pubescent bodies. So no pubic hair and no tan lines.
- [56:50]
B
Yep. And there's emails to that. There's emails about girls going and getting, like, waxed. Like, Leslie Groff was setting those appointments up all the time. Yeah, I just think. I just. I can only speak for myself, but I. I just imagine what it would like to step. What it'd be like to step in that house and just see one thing and know how fast I would have red swags. Like, just as a human, like, not even as a woman, just as a human. Like, how fast the red flags would go up and. And to think that I would ever come back or, like, spend more time or, like, go to dinner because he knew the right people. Like, I just. It would never happen for me. And I'm not in that world, you know, I'm. I don't know any millionaires, but it's like.
- [57:37]
A
Like, I don't believe that, like, he knew the right people. I think some people just literally wanted to be there because they wanted to be around these beautiful girls.
- [57:44]
B
Yeah, Well, I just think of, like, these long lists of, like, the dinner party attendees that are all celebrities that were post 2009, and it's not like everybody's gonna go, you know, look up somebody's sex offender background. But he was well known. Like, his history was well known, and it was not hidden. And again, like you said, he had pictures of naked girls all over his house. So it's like the people who say, well, I didn't know, and I only went there once, and I was invited to a dinner. Like, he had a reputation that preceded him that was incredibly well known in multiple circles. And. And I just question why anybody of means would accept that invitation. I just don't. I don't know.
- [58:25]
A
I remember working at the New York Post, and, like, obviously, when he. When it was known that he was a sex runner, because he was such a figure on the. In the. The New York Society, like, we all knew about it. Like. Like, they. They wanted to send me to his house once to, like, make it out.
- [58:41]
B
I'm good.
- [58:41]
A
They were like, you're young, you're cute. We'll send you out. I was like, oh, God. Okay. There. I wanted to tell you I went to the hearing yesterday. Yeah, that was really powerful. It was. I have mixed feelings about it. Like, I have so many mixed feelings about everything. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, yeah, I. I struggle. I can. Like, I think I have to try to hold a few things at once. Like, it was a shadow hearing. It was not a real hearing before Congress because Republicans have subpoena power. They do not call them. So it couldn't be held in Congress. It was in West Palm Beach. You know, the members made sure to, like, notice to note that it was near Mar a Lago, but it was ultimately near the scene of the crime at Epstein's home and where so many of these girls were from. It was powerful. I had never heard the victim, Rosa, talk before, who was actually abused. While Jeffrey Epstein was under house arrest for the crime in 2005, which we had heard about, that he was still, like, bringing girls to his. To his office, where he was spending his.
- [59:49]
B
His science foundation.
- [59:51]
A
Exactly. His jail sentence in his office, and he was abusing girls while police were standing outside the door. But to hear her talk about the fact that she was abused over and over and over again for years by Jeffrey Epstein, she said that it was worse. And I think I have this bias, and perhaps others do too, that, like, we think, oh, America. Like, we're not like those third world countries where they literally sell their children. She's from Uzbekistan, and she was like, I've never seen anything more. She's like, I was a model all over the world. I'd never seen anything worse than what I experienced in America. And that broke my heart. Like that. That line truly broke my heart. Sky and Amanda Roberts were there. That's Sky. Roberts is Virginia's younger brother. They have been traveling all over the country for Virginia, and I am in total awe of them. I was so proud of Sky. He said Alan Dershowitz's name.
- [60:46]
B
Good.
- [60:47]
A
He said his name.
- [60:49]
B
That. As he said that. I mean, that guy needs to be talked about a whole hell of a lot more.
- [60:55]
A
And I think, like, a lot of people don't really understand what the. Like, I was with Virginia in the middle of that suit, the defamation suit, and how it broke her and how, like, she was a mess. Like, we did that entire podcast knowing that she couldn't speak freely because of the fact that he was aggressively attacking her, like his life depended on it. Because his life did depend on it.
- [61:27]
B
And we have the email that says that he sent to her lawyer saying this is the statement she has to say to clear me. We have that statement in an email that shows that she didn't come up with her. Yeah, it just. It's mind boggling.
- [61:40]
A
I'm. I'm gonna. I'm working on reporting the terms of that deal, by the way. Okay. The full terms of the deal, what he owes her. If he breaks it and says her name because he owes her money. Right now, her estate for break.
- [61:54]
B
Yeah.
- [61:55]
A
So, like, this wasn't like a. And I know Michael, Tracy and others try to use this and say, oh, like, she admitted that she's a liar. It's like she admitted under duress, her family. Like the kind of. I mean, when we were together, someone broke into her house. I'm not saying it was Alan Dershowitz, but there was a break in at her house. The kind of intense pressure and duress that she was under was insane. And she created a foundation called Victims Refuse Silence. Like, this was a woman who believed so deeply, and yet there were so many things. She's still. There are still so many things that have happened to her that have still not come out. I mean, even the fact that her own memoir, she couldn't name names.
- [62:31]
B
She couldn't name names. Yeah. I think People are under the misconception that the survivors are legally covered enough to do whatever they need to do to prosecute this case. And they're not. I mean, they, they do have lawyers and they have a lot of pro bono lawyers. A lot of them don't have pro bono lawyers. And they have, you know, sold their houses to pay their legal bills. But you have, they're going up against people with expensive money, like excessive money. And I asked, I asked one of the, the lawyers who is representing a whole bunch of the survivors, I said, let's say they, you know, there's this idea of them releasing the list, which they don't have to do. They are not beholden to release the list of conspirators. That is not their responsibility to do if they don't want to do it. But I said, what could happen to them if they release it? Are they safe if they release a list of conspirators? And he said, we would do our best, but they have million dollar lawyers. Like, we can only do so much. We would protect them at every length that we could go to. But like the protections for billionaires are a lot better.
- [63:38]
A
And so it's just that they don't even have to go into discovery. They can just continue to bleed these women dry of legal bills, drive them to, in whatever jurisdiction they think that they could win by the way, driving whatever place they think and they can. Like, that's part of the problem with being an independent journalist as well, is like we're up against the same thing. They can, they can just decide to bully you through lawfare. They don't have to win. For them, it's not about winning. It's just about the incremental bleeding of resources and time and energy and spiritual energy.
- [64:11]
B
Right? And when these women are traveling all over to, to go to press conferences and things, a lot of them are paying their way. They're paying their airfare.
- [64:18]
A
They're always paying their way.
- [64:19]
B
They're always paying their way, right? And we, I think people assume because someone's on television that they can afford stuff. But like Virginia Giuffre was working a 9 to 5 job. Like she, like all these people are still working class citizens and they don't have the excessive funds. And it's even with like some of the payouts from the Epstein estate, like the payouts were not great. They didn't cover a lot of. And so a lot of that money has been used up to continue to fight the legal battle for them. Like they've used it in order to get to these places and do these things. And so it's not like they're living in the lap of luxury because they're a part of this case. They are still going to work every day and calling out in order to go to these conferences and different things. So I, I feel for them because they have had to prosecute their own case. They're, they're doing the work that the DOJ should have done for 30 years. You know, these things pop up and we're, we're shocked. We'll see a document and just be absolutely shocked by the torture letter from, from the, the Sultan. You know, different people releasing these horrible, horrible things. And we have to remember that the DOJ has had it the whole time.
- [65:25]
A
Right.
- [65:25]
B
It's shocking to us now because we've never seen it, but the DOJ has always had these documents and hasn't done anything about them.
- [65:31]
A
Yeah. Ellie, Someone commented that Michael Cohen asked April Ryan, who's a great reporter, by the way. We, when I was a White House correspondent, we used to sit next to each other in the briefing room. And he asked her how to stop the Tara Palmares and the Ellie Leonard's. So we've got Michael Wolf, got Michael Cohen Michaels after us. But I think truth tellers, we are going to obviously brush up against people who like to lie. I mean, I don't know what else to say. People have something to hide and so keep going, keep fighting.
- [66:13]
B
Thank you.
- [66:14]
A
Really appreciate what you're working on and what you're doing. I think we all do. And it was great to have you on the show. Of course guys like you can support Ellie and I and our mission by hitting the subscribe button. Consider becoming paid subscribers. It's how we can do this and support others who support us. I know I have some people helping me out on my end. I'm sure you've probably gotten to that place too. I have a YouTube channel as well, the Tara Palmeri Show. You can listen on Spotify, Apple, gotta plug it all, because, you know, that's how we do this. But thank you all and Ellie, thank you.
- [66:50]
B
Thank you. And if you want to read the Michael Wolf piece, you can either read it on my substack, it's pinned to the top, or it is now published at the Nerve, which is an independent media out of, out of England.
- [67:00]
A
That was another episode of the Tara Palmeri Show. Thank you again for tuning in. Please like subscribe rate Share this with all of your friends. Consider becoming a paid subscriber to the Tara Palmari show is where I am doing investigative, independent reporting, going wherever the story leads without fear or favor. I can only do that without your help. I can only do that with your help. I can only do that with your help. I want to thank my producer, Abby Baker, who set this all up, helped with reporting Dan Schiffmacher, my editor, Adam Stewart, who does the graphics, and Dan Rosen, my manager. See you again soon and head to tarapaumari.com.
- [67:48]
B
Some Follow the noise Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line, whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story.
- [68:04]
A
And when you see the money side,
- [68:06]
B
you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now@bloomberg.com.