← The Tara Palmeri Show
The Tara Palmeri Show
EXCLUSIVE: Inside the Epstein Allegation Trump’s Fixer Tried to Shut Down
01:13:46
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- [00:01]
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- [00:32]
Tara Palmieri
Welcome back to the Tara Palmary Show. So many of you have asked me about Katie Johnson. She feels very much like the missing piece in the Jeffrey Epstein story, because she is the one lawsuit that we know of that connects to the President of the United States, one of the most powerful people in the world. And she filed this lawsuit during the 2016 campaign three times. Okay? And at the time, she claimed that she was raped by Jeffrey Epstein and President Trump in Epstein's townhouse in 1994, when she was just 13 years old and was an aspiring model. Now, she dropped that case just days before the election, before she was set to hold a press conference in Los Angeles. And her lawyer, Lisa Bloom, one of her lawyers, said that she dropped it because of death threats and. And intimidation. And every time I look at my comments, my emails, everything that I get from you, the feedback, you're always asking about Katie Johnson, right? Well, I can't say anything about her, really, because I don't. She's never come forward. She's decided to remain anonymous, in the shadows. And even Katie Johnson, that name, it's a pseudonym. It's a Jane Doe. That is not her real name. Because is. Because it's really difficult and. And it's really hard for Jane does to come out and tell their stories without fear of retribution, without fear of private investigators coming after them and their family and trying to intimidate them into backing down from their story. Right? So people have just always wondered what happened to her. I have, too. But her lawyers can't break client confidentiality and speak about her. The only person who can decide if they want to talk about Katie Johnson is Katie Johnson or the person that she has accused or people around her. And then a friend. This weekend, a fellow reporter sent me a clip of Michael Cohen, President Trump's former fixer for almost 15 years.
- [02:36]
Michael Cohen
And I clicked on it.
- [02:37]
Tara Palmieri
He was on MSNBC defending President Trump. Take a listen here.
- [02:44]
Unknown Speaker
Number one, I don't believe that Donald Trump was on Epstein's island. Why? He said it more than five, six times. And, and he says it very openly. Now, Donald Trump says many things openly. I was going to say this is different. He doesn't always flirt with the truth. That's true. But I know Trump and I know that he's saying it for a purpose.
- [03:03]
Tara Palmieri
So, as you heard, he said President Trump didn't go to Epstein Island. He said he didn't believe he did. And he's not in the flight logs either, so he may not be wrong. But I was surprised to hear Michael Cohen going on TV to defend President Trump because he hasn't said anything nice about him since he went to prison for connection to those hush money payments to Stormy Daniels. And there was another one to Karen McDougal, although I don't believe that it was connected to his, his time in prison. But he went to prison essentially as a fall guy for President Trump, and he has had nothing nice to say about him. He has a prominent substack, YouTube channel, etc. But then I thought again about something that Michael Cohen had said earlier. I started Googling. And he said that they cast doubt on the Wall Street Journal's reporting that President Trump gave Jeffrey Epstein this depraved birthday card for his 50th birthday inside of a naked woman's body. And it suggested that they had some sort of shared secret about sexual trysts, that it was an enigma. Well, Michael Cohen said on CNN that President Trump doesn't use the word enigma.
- [04:10]
Michael Cohen
And that he can't doodle.
- [04:12]
Tara Palmieri
Take a listen here.
- [04:13]
Unknown Speaker
I have never once seen him doodle. I never saw him draw a picture. In fact, I would be very shocked if Donald Trump actually can doodle. It's just not his thing. And the language using words like enigma, that's not a Donald Trump word.
- [04:29]
Tara Palmieri
Well, it turns out that one of President Trump's doodles was auctioned off at Sotheby's and he has used the word enigma before.
- [04:39]
Unknown Speaker
Now Carson's an enigma. To me, Carson's an enigma.
- [04:42]
Tara Palmieri
So I'm like, why is Michael Cohen saying this? And then the lights went off for me. Michael Cohen might know more about Katie Johnson. Her suit was filed in the fall of 2016, in the 2016 election period, at the same time that he was the fixer handling Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougall. Surely this was another case that he would want to go away. So I thought, why not just ask Michael directly? And that's what I do in this episode. And it is extremely revealing. It really is. We talk about this case, he says he can't remember it. He stammers but he does remember dealing with another Jeffrey Epstein, Trump related complaint in which the complainant, the plaintiff, said that he. That she was raped by President Trump with Epstein when she was younger. And it sounds very similar to the Katie Johnson case, although he says that they're not the same. I think you should take a listen to this interview. It's stammering. It's wide ranging. You know, Michael is very defensive. He gets very angry at me at times. There's a lot of curse words in it. But I'm just trying to understand what happened. And he really revealed to me a lot about how Trump's orbit dealt with these complaints. The fact that they sent private investigators to find out who this anonymous Jane Doe was. I mean, Jane does use fake addresses, usually their cl. Their law firm, that they retains address so that they can protect themselves and their identities. I think it's worth taking a listen to this conversation. I'm curious to think what you think about it. What do you think Michael Cohen knows? What do you think he doesn't know? Who do you think he's talking about? Because, you know, I've been looking around. I haven't been able to find another complaint that is as similar to Katie Johnson's that was filed at the same time in the 2016 election that was withdrawn voluntarily, just like Katie Johnson's in 2016, right before the election. Sounds like Michael Cohen might be talking about Katie Johnson. Take a listen here. Let me know what you think. Let me know if you know more than I do. I'd love to hear what you know.
- [06:59]
Unknown Speaker
Tara Palmieri. Tara, how you doing? How's everything going? We have a lot to talk about, I'll tell you that.
- [07:06]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, no, we do. Thanks for having me on your show. Want to invite all of my followers as well? From the Red Letter? Yeah, I just was. I saw you on MSNBC this weekend and I've just been seeing you all over the place talking about the Epstein story. And as you know, I've been covering that for so long.
- [07:24]
Unknown Speaker
Yes, that's the right way to say it. My longtime friend. That is the right way to say it. You know, for somebody who's as eloquent and as you know, sort of comical and whimsical in my writing. Yes. My longtime friend. And by the way, just to add to what Tara was saying, if you're a subscriber to me at the very top there, you're actually, it was Jolly who turned around and told me how to do this. At the very top, you know that Chiron that you see, it says Michael Cohen, then it says Tara Palmieri. Do you know that if you tap on that, my subscribers can immediately subscribe to you and then vice versa. So to those of you that are my subscribers, please make sure that you subscribe to Tara and vice versa. Yeah, I'm sorry. So, yes, I was on.
- [08:14]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, that's a great idea. I had no idea about that. Great to know.
- [08:17]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [08:18]
Michael Cohen
Cool. Yeah. So, like, I was. I was looking. I was, you know, I saw you on the weekend with my old colleague Eugene Daniels and your longtime colleague. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it was. It got me back to thinking that, like, you were Trump's lawyer and fixer during a period of time when, you know, Jeffrey Epstein was very much a social figure in Miami, in Palm beach.
- [08:45]
Unknown Speaker
Or not when I was. Not when I was affiliated to Trump, that relationship ended, according to at least what I'm reading, 2005. I didn't come into his orbit until 2005, but more specifically, 2007, when I ended up accepting the position as Executive Vice President of the Trump Organization and special counsel to Trump. And I have been very, very clear. And some people, you know, there's a whole slew, including some folks that are with us today, trying to troll that turn around and say shit like, oh, you know, I'm covering for Trump, or, you know, I've bend the knee and I'm covering.
- [09:28]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [09:28]
Unknown Speaker
I have never met Jeffrey Epstein. I have never spoken to Jeffrey Epstein. I've never texted with him or anyone on his behalf. I never saw him at the Trump Org, never came to visit, never heard Donald's speaking to him, was never asked by Donald to get him onto the phone. There was no relationship with him by the time that I started. Now, I want to be clear, and I say this all the time, I came into Trump's orbit again in 2007. I cannot speak from firsthand knowledge on anything that preceded me, despite what I know people want. They want to hear, you know, me turn around and say something. I'm not here to appease people. Right. For their claps or for your applause or your clickbait. If I turn around and I discredit myself by making a false statement about the relationship or something that you want me to say that I know that I don't. That just takes away from my credibility, and I have no interest in. In doing that.
- [10:36]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, No, I, It's. I'm more just curious because, you know, I know that, like, he was still remained friends with Ghislaine Maxwell and what was Your impression when meeting her, what did you.
- [10:48]
Unknown Speaker
I never met her. You see, this is the whole problem. I've never met Ghislaine. I've never met Jeffrey Epstein. There has so much misinformation, disinformation, malinformation about me, which goes all the way back to the Steele dossier. I've just never done. Yeah, I've never. I've. I've never met her. I've never spoken to her, you know, and as far as. The only case that I was involved with was a Jane Doe, an infant, by and through her mom, Mary Jane Doe. Right. As legal guardian. That case was dismissed. Not because of anything that I. Well, I spoke to the lawyers, and I've talked to. I've talked about this a million times. I turn around and I receive this summons in a complaint. And the averments in it are awful. They're despicable. It talks about, basically, rape of an underage female, claiming and alleging that Donald was involved in it and all that other nonsense. I ended up taking a private investigator and trying to find out who this person was. And we went to the address that allegedly this miner lived at in the Bronx. Well, lo and behold, the investigator responds back and says, the only thing that's there is an empty parking lot. There's no building there. It's an empty lot. And so I reached out to the lawyers and I asked them, have you ever met your client? And their answer was no. I said, well, how the hell did you sign the case up? And they're like, listen, we screwed up. I'm sorry. You know, I'm like, whoa, whoa, hold on one second. You know, I sent an investigator to check out this address. There's no building there.
- [12:51]
Michael Cohen
Was this Katie Johnson or was this.
- [12:52]
Unknown Speaker
A different Jane Doe that was a Jane Doe?
- [12:56]
Michael Cohen
No, because Katie Johnson also files a Jane Doe in New York.
- [12:59]
Unknown Speaker
Well, I don't know if it's the same person.
- [13:01]
Michael Cohen
Or was it a girl who said she was 13 years old and was raped in Epstein's house with President Trump?
- [13:08]
Unknown Speaker
To be very honest, I don't remember the full. I don't remember the full scope of it all. I read Lisa Bloom.
- [13:13]
Michael Cohen
You would remember the lawyer. It was Lisa Bloom, came out in November.
- [13:16]
Unknown Speaker
There was no. It was not Lisa Bloom as the lawyer. It was a gentleman. And I reached out to him and I said, have you ever met your client? He said, no, no. In fact, that they did. It was the referral to him. And he ended up doing it through the mail. I said, really? So he goes yeah, they sent me. I sent them all the papers to a P.O. box or something, and then they sent it back. And this was the address. And so he was like, listen, I'm dropping this case. I don't know whether or not this person even exists. That was.
- [13:53]
Michael Cohen
What year was this? I never.
- [13:55]
Unknown Speaker
That was 2,000. And that was 2,000. And I'll tell you right now, hold on. There was 2016.
- [14:08]
Michael Cohen
Oh, so it was in the same year as the campaign. It was the same year as the other suit from the Katie Johnson that then became.
- [14:18]
Unknown Speaker
It happened. It happened around October, November of 2016. And the lawyer was like, my apologies, I'm withdrawing the case.
- [14:25]
Michael Cohen
I said, so it wasn't. Wasn't the Lisa Bloom one? Because you would have remembered that one.
- [14:29]
Unknown Speaker
No.
- [14:30]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, I was thinking about that one. Because that case also was revoked around the same time in 2016. Around the same time that, you know.
- [14:40]
Unknown Speaker
No, it was not revoked in 2016.
- [14:43]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, it was. The Katie Johnson was. It was taken. She took it back in. I believe it was November 2016. And get you the exact date. Yeah, she. She took it back and she. They claimed it was because of intimidation. And I was just wondering, like, did you handle that case? Because obviously Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougall were being handled at the same time.
- [15:04]
Unknown Speaker
No. No.
- [15:06]
Michael Cohen
Who was. Do you know who handled it?
- [15:08]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it was. It was an outside law firm.
- [15:12]
Michael Cohen
It's in this. It says Alan Garten left in Politico, quotes Alan Garten, who was his. In his. In house attorney.
- [15:20]
Unknown Speaker
Then it was in 2016. Then it was 2017.
- [15:23]
Michael Cohen
No, it's in 2016. The Katie Johnson cases has been established in 2016.
- [15:28]
Unknown Speaker
That wasn't something that I handled.
- [15:30]
Michael Cohen
You didn't handle that one? No, no, I was just like. It just seems that, you know, you've cast a lot of doubt on this case, like by saying he didn't doodle. And then obviously he was, you know, he doesn't doodle.
- [15:43]
Unknown Speaker
You know, I'm sorry that he sold his Sothebys, though. One of his Sothebys, he may have colored it in, but all of his executive assistants were all phenomenal artists. And there were one or two that were just even better than phenomenal that they actually show their stuff in galleries. So did he turn around and say to somebody here, just scratch me out something and I'll sign my name to it? And he did it for charity. I do not make any claims whatsoever. Zero. That he didn't prior to my knowledge or that he did. I have no Idea. I only know from when I started to when I left that there was no relation. But I'm not denying any of these victims. Who the hell am I to deny any of these? I'm actually more curious.
- [16:42]
Michael Cohen
I'm actually just more curious if you handled them because this, this.
- [16:46]
Unknown Speaker
Well, the answer is if. The answer is if Alan Garten turns around in Politico and says he handled it.
- [16:51]
Michael Cohen
Why would you say he handled it? He just commented on Trump's behalf. But you would handle it.
- [16:56]
Unknown Speaker
But why would Alan Garten ever comment. So why would Alan Garten ever comment on me? Right. I've never commented on.
- [17:02]
Michael Cohen
You commented on the case because it was dropped because they said that there was intimidation and that's why it was dropped. But at the same exact time was the Stormy Daniels, and at the same time there was also the Karen McDougal case, and they were all dropped in the fall of 2016. So I was wondering.
- [17:19]
Unknown Speaker
Had nothing to do with me. Let me be very clear. I testified to seven congressional committees.
- [17:25]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [17:26]
Unknown Speaker
To two grand juries and to two trials. Do you think. And not to mention some outside additional depositions that were taken by Alina Hopper. Do you really think that of all of these members of Congress that asked me questions for a total of 63 hours, do you think they didn't bring up this sort of stuff with Jeffrey Epstein?
- [17:47]
Michael Cohen
And the answer, what did they ask? What did they ask?
- [17:51]
Unknown Speaker
It's in the records. But they all asked. And I turn around and I say the same thing.
- [17:55]
Michael Cohen
I don't have read the records. I'm just curious.
- [17:58]
Unknown Speaker
And I turn around and I say the same thing. I have no knowledge of anything with Jeffrey Epstein. Zero.
- [18:03]
Michael Cohen
So somebody else handled the Jeffrey Epstein.
- [18:06]
Unknown Speaker
I didn't handle it. I didn't handle it as much as idiots like this velvet lavender. I didn't handle it. So I stayed horseback.
- [18:16]
Michael Cohen
In all honesty, though.
- [18:17]
Unknown Speaker
But you know, Patara, to be honest with you, what you're doing is actually wrong. I gotta tell you. I'm gonna tell you why it's wrong. I'm gonna tell you why it's wrong. I have now said at least 3,000 times, at least 3,000 times. I have no knowledge of Jeffrey Epstein at all as it relates to Trump. But people just keep wanting, digging. Well, you must know something.
- [18:38]
Michael Cohen
I think a lot of people just wanna know why one person filed a suit and then dropped it. I don't have the answer time as these other women that also were getting.
- [18:46]
Unknown Speaker
Hush money, by the way, one person got hush money from Me, Stormy Daniels. Another misstatement is the one that I paid off Karen McDougal. No, I did not. That was paid for by David Pecker and the National Enquirer. All right? Plain and simple. It's not that I'm defensive. I'm trying to extend, explain, and people just don't want to hear it. The same way I tried to explain to everyone, I've never been to Prague. I have never been to the Czech Republic. Oh, my God, guess where. I've also never been to Russia.
- [19:19]
Michael Cohen
I just want to know about this one case because I think it's. Oh, every time.
- [19:24]
Unknown Speaker
Call the lawyer. Call the lawyer. Call Alan Garten.
- [19:29]
Michael Cohen
He wasn't the lawyer necessarily. He was just speaking on behalf of the.
- [19:33]
Tara Palmieri
He wasn't.
- [19:33]
Michael Cohen
He was just speaking on behalf of Trump. It doesn't mean he's necessarily the lawyer. Like, you were his lawyer, too, and his fixer. And that's why I'm just wondering what this.
- [19:40]
Unknown Speaker
And I'm telling you that I had nothing to do with it.
- [19:43]
Michael Cohen
Okay, that's fair. But I, I mean, the other. I, I just think it's a little weird that, like, you had never. You haven't said anything nice about Trump since, like, prison, basically. And, and in this case, you can. You seem to be saying that, like, there's. That, you know, there's no way he went to the island because he said he didn't go to the island.
- [20:04]
Unknown Speaker
No, no, that's not what. That's not what I said. Okay. Again, what I say is extremely important, and you can't paraphrase it or decide.
- [20:12]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, please say it.
- [20:13]
Unknown Speaker
Put it in your own way. What I said was I have no knowledge of Jeff. Of Donald Trump ever going to Jeffrey Epstein's island.
- [20:23]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. There's no flight record.
- [20:25]
Unknown Speaker
I'm referring from 2007 to 2018. Okay. Second, I know Trump just about better than anybody. There's a reason why he is saying it the way that he's saying that. I've never been to Epstein's island, and I wouldn't be shocked if that's not true. What I know is that he's definitively on his airplane because he used to go with. With Epstein down to Palm Beach. Right.
- [20:57]
Michael Cohen
It's in the flight logs. Yeah, it's in the flight logs.
- [21:00]
Unknown Speaker
There's no way it's in there. There's no way to argue that fact. So I know that he did it simply, simply for the purpose of not having to fuel up his own plane. It was the free ride on a nice airplane. Plain and simple. When what I'm afraid of is that the. That fact of him never being on Epstein's island. What if, hypothetically, he's telling the truth on this specific issue? Is that going to negate out all the other stuff? And what I keep saying is I can't stand everybody's innuendo. All of the hypotheticals, whether it's the people that are with us today or those that are on television or we're journalists or. Or whatever the hell they want to call themselves. I'm talking about. There's no need for this innuendo. Hypothetical conversation. Release the goddamn files.
- [21:56]
Michael Cohen
So many things that we don't know.
- [21:57]
Unknown Speaker
So, for example, the files is what I keep saying. And then none of us has to. None of us have to speculate because.
- [22:07]
Michael Cohen
Stupid, at this point, you would actually know better than most people. For example, Brad Edwards was a lawyer for one of the.
- [22:12]
Unknown Speaker
I don't know who Brad Edwards is.
- [22:14]
Michael Cohen
Well, he actually spoke with Trump and he said that it was Trump's lawyers that set him up, because he knew that Trump and Epstein did not get along. It was infamous.
- [22:23]
Unknown Speaker
In what year?
- [22:24]
Michael Cohen
Everyone knew that Trump.
- [22:25]
Unknown Speaker
And in what year?
- [22:27]
Michael Cohen
This was in 2019.
- [22:29]
Unknown Speaker
Yes, I was in prison in 2019.
- [22:31]
Michael Cohen
No, sorry, earlier than that. It must have been. No. 2017, when they were fighting for the Crime Victims Rights act, when they realized that their case was being overturned. He asked to depose Trump, and he called Trump's lawyers about it, and he did this for his client.
- [22:43]
Unknown Speaker
Who did. Who did he call?
- [22:45]
Michael Cohen
He didn't specify the exact lawyer, but the lawyer said so. Wouldn't you have been aware if Trump was testifying on behalf of the victims for Jeffrey Epps against Jeffrey Epstein? Like, I just find it hard to believe that at no point during the time that you worked for him, you never spoke to him about Jeffrey Epstein.
- [23:01]
Unknown Speaker
No.
- [23:02]
Michael Cohen
When. When this guy, Brad Edwards, who is just a lawyer, I don't know who he is. Like, it's infamous that they hate each other. Like, that's one thing.
- [23:10]
Unknown Speaker
And I'm sure they do hate each other. I'm just telling you, I have no idea.
- [23:14]
Michael Cohen
I think.
- [23:15]
Unknown Speaker
And I'm hiding, by the way. Do you think that I would be hiding something if I knew something?
- [23:21]
Michael Cohen
I just think that you might. That there has. That there are def. I would find it impossible, considering who Jeffrey Epstein is and what I know about him, that at no point did you guys ever discuss the relationship, what the falling out was like, why they weren't friends.
- [23:39]
Unknown Speaker
Do you know how I found out what the falling out was about was on my podcast, on my podcast with Michael Wolf on Mea culpa. When I had him on about three weeks ago, I had no idea what.
- [23:49]
Michael Cohen
The falling out and when your client is going to testify against him. Like, you didn't at any point talk about that.
- [23:56]
Unknown Speaker
Okay, I'm going to say it. I'll say it again. And I really want you to listen to what I'm saying now. All right? Because after a while, it just gets redundant. I had no time to tell the truth.
- [24:08]
Michael Cohen
Like, that's all I wanted to say.
- [24:09]
Unknown Speaker
Okay. Your truth and my truth may not be the same. What you want to hear is. What you may want to hear is truth. Right? It may not be the same. I'm telling you, I had no conversations with Trump about Epstein. I learned from Michael Wolf that it had to do with the house that was sold in Palm beach, that I did that I worked on the documents that was done through Sotheby's to Dmitri Robojiev. I didn't know that. In fact, I didn't even know that that house originally belonged to Lex Wexner. Now, I knew the house on 71st street belonged to Lex Wessner. That I know I had read about years ago where it was a weird sort of deal where he just gave him this like 60 plus million dollar townhouse. But I didn't know that that house in Palm beach was. Was less listeners. I didn't know.
- [24:59]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, right.
- [25:00]
Unknown Speaker
I didn't know. If I knew, I would have talked about it. You think that. I mean, is there anything else that I have not spoken about, openly and honestly?
- [25:10]
Michael Cohen
I don't know, because all I've heard so far is like, everything you've said basically is. Is to sort of clear him, which is fine. I'm not clearing him. Spoken to. I have never. I've never spoken to a victim that has said that they were. That they were molested by Trump during the Epstein period of time. But I do know that a case was dropped during the time that you were his fixer. And that is why I'm asking you, and I wanted to ask you about what you knew about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, because they were very much in Trump's orbit for a long period of time.
- [25:43]
Unknown Speaker
When I wasn't in. When I was before.
- [25:46]
Michael Cohen
He was still a member of Mar a Lago until 2007.
- [25:50]
Unknown Speaker
Right. That's okay. I started March of 2007. I have no idea when he was or was not. I never met Jeffrey Epstein. I never Met him. I never spoke to him. I'm just telling you again, the answer is no, and it's not an issue. I don't know how many more times to people I can explain to them, and there's some idiot that's trolling us, you know. Oh, but Cohen lives in a Trump. I bought my apartment. It is a condo, right? Meaning fee simple, absolute. I bought my condo two years before I was even working for Trump, right? Just by coincidence, I owned other apartments in Trump buildings. I had one at Trump World Tower, one at Trump Palace. I invested in various apartments. I had quite a few going back years ago in different Trump buildings till, of course, I ended up losing them as a direct result of my incarceration. You think I'm here to protect anybody? I'm just here just to tell the truth. Because as soon as I look, you know how easy it would be for me to just turn around and say, you know, I don't know, it's possible. Sure, maybe, Yeah. I have no idea. No, no.
- [26:56]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [26:57]
Unknown Speaker
It just detracts from all the things that I have said so far. So either they want. How many times did I have to yell from the rooftops? Rooftops? I've never been to Prague. I've never been to the Czech Republic. I've never been to Russia. I gave them my passport and daily beach. The ones who put out the story. They photographed it, Michael. They photographed.
- [27:19]
Michael Cohen
I'm not trying to implicate you. All I am is asking you if you have.
- [27:22]
Unknown Speaker
And I'm telling you no.
- [27:23]
Michael Cohen
If. I'm asking you if you have any information, because it is the thing that everyone asks. I look at my. I look at my comments every single day because I am. I'm creating a community. And everybody wants to know what happened to Katie Johnson.
- [27:35]
Unknown Speaker
I don't know.
- [27:36]
Michael Cohen
Everybody wants to know that. So where is she exactly? Everybody wants.
- [27:41]
Unknown Speaker
I don't know if you're on. If you're on, contact me. I'd like to know as well. I have no idea.
- [27:47]
Michael Cohen
And you were working for him at the time. And so everybody wants to know. And the reports were all that she left because of intimidation. Was there a settlement? Was she intimidated? And that's not by me.
- [27:58]
Unknown Speaker
Not by me.
- [27:59]
Michael Cohen
I'm not asking you to. Like, I just want.
- [28:02]
Unknown Speaker
I'm just telling you not by me. And not only was it not by me, I have no knowledge of it.
- [28:08]
Michael Cohen
Okay. And do you know who might have knowledge of it?
- [28:11]
Unknown Speaker
I don't. I don't. I don't even know who represented the Case.
- [28:16]
Michael Cohen
Okay.
- [28:17]
Unknown Speaker
You know, I, I, I truly don't know. Let's find out who was, who was her lawyer? Was it, did you say it was Lisa Bloom?
- [28:24]
Michael Cohen
Lisa Bloom, Yeah.
- [28:25]
Unknown Speaker
So let's call Lisa Bloom. Let's call Lisa Bloom and answer just.
- [28:29]
Michael Cohen
The question is, is that she has decided to drop. Like, she's no longer. She was a Jane Doe, first of all. And she decided not to. She obviously didn't go forward with it. So something must have happened during that time that made her decide not to want to go forward with it. And there were three times she filed the case. She filed it first in California, she filed it again in New York, and then filed a third time in New York. So she tried.
- [28:50]
Unknown Speaker
So let me ask you this. So the two cases that have filed in New York, let's just check on West, Westlaw, Nexus, Lexis. Let's pull up the old file and see who was representing Katie Johnson. It's not hard.
- [29:02]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, it was Molly. It was Molly. It was Lisa Bloom. Excuse me. It was Lisa Bloom. Yeah.
- [29:07]
Unknown Speaker
No, no, no.
- [29:07]
Michael Cohen
Who was representing President Trump is the other question. Like, right, that's exactly. Who was defending the other side?
- [29:15]
Unknown Speaker
Who was defendant's attorney?
- [29:18]
Michael Cohen
The defendant's attorney. I mean, I have to look at that one. But, I mean, it's. You were his, you were his lawyer at the time.
- [29:24]
Unknown Speaker
I was one of.
- [29:25]
Michael Cohen
You dealt with these.
- [29:25]
Unknown Speaker
I was one of 15 lawyers in the firm. Not to mention, this isn't even one that.
- [29:31]
Michael Cohen
I can pull it up. I can pull up.
- [29:33]
Unknown Speaker
Let's pull it up. I'm sitting right here.
- [29:35]
Michael Cohen
Katie Johnson, Donald Trump. But you did handle two similar cases at the time. So that's why I asked.
- [29:42]
Unknown Speaker
Why. Why there's allegations of rape by, by Karen McDougal or by. Or by Stormy Daniels.
- [29:50]
Michael Cohen
Well, there. Were they.
- [29:51]
Unknown Speaker
Their affairs.
- [29:53]
Michael Cohen
Yes. That's fair that they weren't.
- [29:55]
Unknown Speaker
They were, they also weren't 13 years old.
- [29:58]
Michael Cohen
Right.
- [29:59]
Unknown Speaker
One was the most famous claimant of all time.
- [30:03]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [30:03]
Unknown Speaker
The other was an adult film star.
- [30:05]
Michael Cohen
You did say earlier that you handled another case, though, pertaining to Epstein, and then you found. It was incredible after you tried to find out.
- [30:11]
Unknown Speaker
And all I did is I called the lawyer and I said, you know, I sent somebody to investigate. And it came back. It was a vacant lot in the middle of the Bronx.
- [30:23]
Michael Cohen
Well, some. I mean, maybe the Jane Doe didn't feel comfortable putting their actual address because this is why they're afraid. They don't want to be intimidated at their homes. You know, this kind of stuff happens.
- [30:34]
Unknown Speaker
That's just not the way that it's. Not the way that it works. So I contacted the lawyers. He said he never met his client. It was all done by paper. You know what his comment was. Maybe it just wasn't true. Right. Maybe this was just a ploy by somebody to. Around. I didn't know. I didn't care. There was no plaintiff at the time. According to. Even the lawyers that filed the claim. They immediately withdrew it. The whole thing just came and went after that. I had no involvement in any of these cases.
- [31:14]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. Okay. All right, I'm gonna, I, I'm trying to both listen to you and also find this Katie Johnson suit, but.
- [31:24]
Unknown Speaker
All right, all right. Meanwhile.
- [31:26]
Michael Cohen
But we can talk about something else in the meantime, if you'd like.
- [31:29]
Unknown Speaker
Yep. Meanwhile, I think we should talk about the issue of Trump's decision to bring in Pam Bondi and the DoJ to go after people like Tish James or Adam Schiff or, you know, soon to be Alvin Bragg. You know, one of the other things that I said on MSNBC is I do truly believe that they have committed political homicide. And I say that because right now.
- [32:02]
Michael Cohen
Really quickly, I did just get the suit. I got the suit. The complaint. It does not list Donald Trump's lawyers. So. So it just hasn't.
- [32:09]
Unknown Speaker
It has to. It has to.
- [32:11]
Michael Cohen
I'm looking at a United States District of Court, Central District of California suit. I mean, that's what I'm looking at right now.
- [32:19]
Unknown Speaker
Well, how about the New York ones? I, I'm not, I'm not licensed in California, so I couldn't have represented him there anyway.
- [32:26]
Michael Cohen
Pull the New York. I'll ask him to pull the New York ones. Okay. We can go back to Pam Bondi, though, in the meantime. Yeah.
- [32:32]
Unknown Speaker
So we're sitting and we're trying to deal with this other issue with, which is, you know, what's going to happen to Adam Schiff, what's going to happen to Tish James? And I do truly believe that based upon the manner to which, that the members of the, of the House and the Senate and the Judiciary are acting and behaving, I do believe that they are going to be held accountable. You know, one of the charges that was levied against me was my HELOC violation, the home equity line of credit. Now, mind you, I had the HELOC since the year 2000, and then the second one since 2005. This took place in 2016. They said that you didn't fill out the form. Right. And therefore, I was charged with making a misrepresentation to a bank. And that was part of the crimes that I ultimately went to prison for. Well, James and Adam Schiff have different documents that they allegedly signed. And this is all allegedly, according to the allegations coming out of the White House and the DOJ that there is documentation showing that they up on their documents. All right, well, if that crime is good enough for me to go away, what do you think is going to happen to them? Especially when you have a DOJ that is now empowered by this president to act in a manner that is, let's just say, swift and tough.
- [34:27]
Michael Cohen
It was just confirmed that it is Johnson's SDNY case.
- [34:32]
Unknown Speaker
Okay.
- [34:33]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [34:34]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So you think that this is going to bode well for either of them? I don't think so.
- [34:42]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. By the way, I did get the case in federal in U.S. southern District of New York. It doesn't include the names of the lawyers for Donald Trump. It just says Jane Doe verse Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. And it was filed in. The date is October 3, 2017. Her lawyers are below, but not Donald Trump's lawyers.
- [35:05]
Unknown Speaker
Thomas, 17.
- [35:10]
Michael Cohen
In October 2016. Yeah.
- [35:12]
Unknown Speaker
2016 to 2017.
- [35:14]
Michael Cohen
2016.
- [35:16]
Unknown Speaker
Okay. And it doesn't say the name of Trump's lawyers?
- [35:19]
Michael Cohen
No, it doesn't in the filing. It just says.
- [35:21]
Unknown Speaker
And what about, what about in the file that would turn around on the dismissal? Somebody has to sign off on it.
- [35:29]
Michael Cohen
I don't have the dismissal filing. I just have the file that was submitted.
- [35:34]
Unknown Speaker
Okay, and what about the, what about the other one? That's the Jane Doe. What about the, what about the Katie Johnston one?
- [35:42]
Michael Cohen
It's through the same person. She keeps signals.
- [35:44]
Unknown Speaker
No, no, you don't know that to be true. No, I'm sorry, you don't know that to be true because the individual that I spoke to that was the Jane Doe lawyer was not Lisa Bloom. It was a man, Thomas Meager. What's that? Thomas Meager you're talking. I don't remember. It was. It could be. It could be, but it may not be. But he doesn't work. He doesn't work for her. It was his own firm.
- [36:12]
Michael Cohen
Was it Chaney Mason again?
- [36:14]
Unknown Speaker
I, I don't. I don't know. The whole, that whole case with me lasted less than two days, from the day I got it to the day that they dropped it.
- [36:22]
Michael Cohen
But what. Did you take a look at the date Trump about it, though? When you, when you were like.
- [36:27]
Unknown Speaker
Well, I did ask him. I did ask him. He told me it was bullshit, take care of it. I said, okay, that was it.
- [36:34]
Michael Cohen
That Was it bullshit?
- [36:36]
Unknown Speaker
He said, bullshit never happened.
- [36:39]
Michael Cohen
Hmm. Were you like, there's all these pictures. Is this going to be a problem around the same time?
- [36:45]
Unknown Speaker
No. I said, you sure? I said, you sure? He goes, michael, it's bullshit.
- [36:51]
Michael Cohen
That's just the way he communicates. Like, you don't. You don't get much more info than that.
- [36:54]
Unknown Speaker
It's what he told me on this one.
- [36:57]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. And you believed him?
- [37:00]
Unknown Speaker
100%. Then he said to me, you know, let me know what happens. I said, sure. Don't forget, also, when this thing came about, he's smacked in the middle of the, you know, of the campaign, before the, you know, before the election. And so it wasn't like, you know, oh, yeah, let's sit down and let's engage in, you know, in a lengthy discussion on something that he turned around, told me was bullshit. And I turned around and said, okay, you say it's bullshit, but, um, let me. Let me go figure this thing out. He goes, just. Just let me know what happens. Okay.
- [37:30]
Michael Cohen
Do you think, though, with all of the women that have come forward, did you think that they were all bullshit? Like.
- [37:35]
Unknown Speaker
No, no. I don't question any victim's comments. All I can talk about is what I know. Let me ask you the same question. Do you believe every single woman that came out and made an allegation against Mr. Trump, President Trump? Donald? Do you believe.
- [37:55]
Michael Cohen
Unless I.
- [37:56]
Unknown Speaker
Hold on. Do you believe every one of the victim's comments?
- [38:01]
Michael Cohen
I don't dismiss them based on. It's bullshit.
- [38:04]
Unknown Speaker
I don't either. But you and I stand shoulder to shoulder on this one. I never met any of them. I never spoke to any of them. I've never deposed any of them. I was never involved in any of the lawsuits by them or against them or anything. I was not involved in any negotiations with any of them. Not from Eugene Carroll, not to Katie Johnson. I just wasn't involved in it. So you and I stand shoulder to shoulder. The fact that I worked for him and I had done other matters doesn't necessarily make me a Talmud kachem in this one, too. I'm just telling you, if I knew, trust me, I'd be the first one, it would have been in my book.
- [38:43]
Michael Cohen
Right.
- [38:44]
Unknown Speaker
Like everything else.
- [38:46]
Michael Cohen
Well, I'm really curious about the questions like, that they asked you about Jeffrey Epstein, because I don't think a lot of people have really gone back to that. The questions that were asked when you were being subpoenaed back, you know, in 2017, like, they asked if I know.
- [38:59]
Unknown Speaker
You do you know anything about the relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein?
- [39:02]
Michael Cohen
No. Yeah.
- [39:03]
Unknown Speaker
No. Never met him, never spoke to him, never communicated with him, never texted him, never emailed with him or any of anybody that worked for him.
- [39:11]
Michael Cohen
I just thought you knew about this. You obviously knew about this one case that you dug into.
- [39:16]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, but it wasn't a real. It wasn't a real case. There was no plaintiff, according to. According to the plaintiff's own lawyer. So getting back to just. Again, you know, this is the problem when you're trying to disprove a negative. This is a fact.
- [39:33]
Michael Cohen
Like, you're a very valuable source because of your experience with him. Like, you have to understand, but you don't want to.
- [39:39]
Unknown Speaker
But you and so many others don't want to accept the fact that, yeah, I am a valuable source for information that I know and I have. If I don't have it, I'm not going to make it up for clickbait or for applause or for anything. I just don't know.
- [39:54]
Michael Cohen
Okay. I mean, listen, I wouldn't want you to. It just. Yeah. And I think it's. It's just. It's worthy that it's. It's worth asking about. And I did. I heard a few things. I was like, that's a little weird, but, you know, let me ask and see what's going on. And I thought, okay, the timeline is around the same time you would have been dealing with the other women that were saying that they wanted to come out again again.
- [40:16]
Unknown Speaker
One was the number one playboy playmate in the world. The other one was a. Was an. An adult film star, both of whom were neither children. Right. And, you know, one of them, Karen McDougal, was actually in love with the guy. Right.
- [40:32]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [40:32]
Unknown Speaker
Stormy, Daniel. That's a whole nother story. All right. By the way, I speak to Stormy on a regular basis. Actually became friends after I ultimately got out. I had her on my Mayor Culpa podcast, too. Right. You know, I've never questioned what she says to be, you know, to be. Not true. Never going to. I'm never going to do what too many have done to me, which is to refute the veracity of. We'll call it a victim or, you know, a woman who says that she engaged in a sexual relationship with somebody. I'm just not going to make it up in order to appease the prurient interests of individuals. I'm sorry.
- [41:12]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, I just like working so closely with him. I would just think, like, you know, had you ever, you know, thought to Yourself, you heard him talk about Epstein or, you know, met Epstein yourself or Glenn because she was still around. I mean, she went to the Clinton's wedding after all.
- [41:30]
Unknown Speaker
I didn't go to the Clintons wedding.
- [41:31]
Michael Cohen
I wasn't society person. You're a powerful man. Like, I assume that you had probably come in contact with them at some point in your life.
- [41:39]
Unknown Speaker
In fact, I don't think I've ever even been in the same restaurant with them. I would have. I would have known. I don't forget he lives directly next door to Howard Lutnick, who I've known longer than I know Trump. I've never even seen Jeffrey.
- [41:53]
Michael Cohen
Never like crossed paths at any point. That's so crazy.
- [41:57]
Unknown Speaker
No, no, no, it is what it is.
- [42:03]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [42:03]
Unknown Speaker
Wow, that is so going back now to, to, you know, you talk about the crazy nonsense of, you know, this DOJ and like what happened to me when it comes to the weaponization of the Department of Justice, you know, it is. It is what it is. I rest assured, Adam Schiff, right. If the allegations are provable, they will go after him. It will be political homicide. Same thing with Tish James. This DOJ has sworn a loyalty oath to the office, to the President, not even to the office to Donald J. Trump. Like has never seen before in, I think in all of U.S. history. It's just never been like this. Where tomorrow they turn around and they let me be clear about something. Here's what Donald Trump understands and knows is that everybody is guilty of something. And to those that are with us, to you, to Pope Leo, everybody has done things, something right. Question is, have you done it within a statute of limitations that they can go after. What if they want to go after you? That they are hell bent to destroy you and they have the full game under control. You're doomed. You know, there's the great book I read when I was in Otisville, when I was in prison. It's by Sidney Powell, believe it or not, and Harvey Westglade called five felonies a day. And basically what it's about is that everybody commits five felonies a day. Now take a. And it's not that these are felonies that people would, you know, be incarcerated for unless the Department of Justice wants to do it to you. So what happens if, hypothetically tomorrow, Tara, they go ahead, they start pulling out whatever the records may be. And I know you're gonna say, oh, they'd have nothing on me. It's not true. It goes back to the old adage that they can Indict a ham sandwich. That's true.
- [44:22]
Michael Cohen
I believe a grand jury could indict a ham sandwich. Which is the weirdest part about the Epstein case, too. The fact that he didn't get any indictments 100%.
- [44:31]
Unknown Speaker
That's another issue. I just had Dave Aronberg on my Mayor Culpa podcast where he talked about it, but because look at what took place over there. That the guy who gave Epstein that sweetheart deal. I never heard anything like this in my entire life. That he was using the prison system like a timeshare. Right. He would wake up first thing in the morning, right after count, he would go off to the mansion and then.
- [44:58]
Michael Cohen
He could go to his office. He was on work release. Yeah.
- [45:01]
Unknown Speaker
For six. Six out of seven days. Right. A week. I mean, I've never heard of anything like this in my entire life, especially on a sex offense. I mean, this is nuts. It's as crazy as Ghislaine Maxwell being sent to FCI Bryan in Texas, which is a low security facility.
- [45:24]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [45:25]
Unknown Speaker
These. That's why I will keep saying. And I'm going to do something very, very soon where I'm going to put out this massive petition. I want Republicans across the country, including Republican members of Congress, I want them to sign onto this petition demanding the immediate unredacted file that Pam Bondi claims is sitting on her desk. We want the unredacted file exclusive, of course, of the victims names, those that do not want to be named. All right. Or just take everybody's name out. It doesn't matter to me. I want to see the file. I want to be able to read the file like I read the 921 page Project 2025. So that when you and I sit and we engage in conversation, I'm not talking to you about hypotheticals or innuendos and so on. I like facts. As a lawyer, as a guy who was a trial.
- [46:26]
Michael Cohen
I was like, that's why I'm here. I was like, I want to know what you know. Wanted to know if you knew Epstein. Wanted to know if you knew Ghislaine. Wanted to know what you had heard Trump say about Glenn and Maxwell. Wanted to know if you had to deal with these lawsuits that came to Trump.
- [46:40]
Unknown Speaker
Just. Just the. Just the one. Just the one.
- [46:44]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. And you just took it at face value that it was bullshit.
- [46:48]
Unknown Speaker
Well, I'm not the one who said it was bullshit. It was Jane Doe's lawyers that told me. I apologize. It's bullshit. I never met. I never met our client. It was all done.
- [47:03]
Michael Cohen
No money was exchanged, though. There was no settlement to go away or anything like that.
- [47:06]
Unknown Speaker
Nope, nope. Not a penny. Not a penny. The attorney turned around and said, I apologize. You know, it's actually improper what they did. But listen, it resolved itself within 48 hours.
- [47:22]
Michael Cohen
Probably reported that person for doing that. If.
- [47:25]
Unknown Speaker
If I really felt like it and I wanted to be an. I certainly done that.
- [47:29]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, that's a serious thing to accuse somebody of. And then be like, it's. I would.
- [47:33]
Unknown Speaker
Sure. And. And you know, when I turn around and I told Trump as I caught him coming in and out, because he was constantly flying in and out, you know, I turned around and I quote him and I said, by the way, you know, the matter was dismissed, you know, prejudice, you know, without prejudice. So therefore, you know, it can never be refiled again. But then again, who's filing it? You know, Jane Doe. And the reason why the address is important so that there is a legitimate address. Well, these are very significant allegations. And if that case kept going, obviously.
- [48:07]
Michael Cohen
But then again, doesn't. I thought that for. For a lot of these Jane does, they don't want to put their addresses there because they don't want to be identified. That's why they're Jane Does.
- [48:15]
Unknown Speaker
Right. And so sometimes what they'll do is they could even put their lawyer's office.
- [48:19]
Michael Cohen
Exactly their address or they buy a post a postal. But they don't want to be tracked. I mean, they're using Jane Doe to remain anonymous.
- [48:27]
Unknown Speaker
But the lawyer has to know his client, has to know the name of the client, the date of birth, a Social Security number, an address, a phone number, There's a specific amount of information.
- [48:43]
Michael Cohen
They'Re not going to hand you the that information because then you can go and intimidate that person or you can go and talk to.
- [48:49]
Unknown Speaker
Well understood. But when the lawyer turns around and tells me I've never met and there's clearly there's no address here different than the one that we gave to and you know, we have this beeper number, you know, that doesn't even work anymore. The bottom line is they apologize, they dropped the case. And we turn around and I called it and I told Trump the case has been dropped. And he goes, I told you it was bullshit.
- [49:12]
Michael Cohen
And that's that. That's that. Nothing more about Epstein.
- [49:16]
Unknown Speaker
Wow. No. What do you think? I was going to go and sit down with Trump. All right, hey, let, let's fit and engage in a conversation on something that you told me was bullshit.
- [49:25]
Michael Cohen
I don't know. I was a lawyer, I'd be like, tell me everything I need to know before I go into there. So I'm not surprised. That'd be my question.
- [49:32]
Unknown Speaker
Except in 48 hours again, right? The case ends up being dismissed, and he turns and he tells me it's bullshit. I'm not going to start pressing him on something that he already told me was a lie, was bullshit. And so did Jane Doe's attorneys.
- [49:48]
Michael Cohen
Do you think that they were really best friends, though, back in the day?
- [49:51]
Unknown Speaker
No.
- [49:52]
Michael Cohen
Why not?
- [49:53]
Unknown Speaker
No. Because Trump never had a best friend.
- [49:56]
Michael Cohen
That's interesting.
- [49:57]
Unknown Speaker
I probably was one of the few people that he considered to be a friend. Not a best friend, but a friend. And I can only tell you, look at what ended up happening to me, right? So, Jeffrey, you know, Epstein, but you worked for.
- [50:14]
Michael Cohen
You worked for Trump, so, you know.
- [50:15]
Unknown Speaker
I did, but I was in a totally different situation. I didn't come in and ask for a job.
- [50:21]
Michael Cohen
He.
- [50:22]
Unknown Speaker
He offered me the job. Instead of paying me money that he owed me for doing some legal work on the Chapter 11 reorganization of Trump Entertainment Resorts, he was like, you know, he goes, you remind me very much of, like, you know, my old mentor, you know, Roy Cohn. And then he was like, you know, he goes, I would. He goes, why don't you come work for me? And I was like, serious? He's like, yeah. You're not happy at that sleepy old firm that you with? I was with Philip Snyser, one of. One of. I think it's one of the oldest law firms in, you know, in the country, you know, and I was a partner. I was like, I'm good. I'm not really working that hard. I'm. I'm doing well. I'm not. He goes, come join me. He goes, you'll have a great time. Yada, yada, yada. Great time ended up costing me everything from my finances, my family's happiness, my freedom, my law license, my business, you know, cost me everything. So you think that I'm going to sit here and I'm going to turn around and not tell the truth about. About.
- [51:23]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. I mean, you had a good run for 15 years, but, yes, in the.
- [51:26]
Unknown Speaker
End, I didn't need the run. That's the whole thing. I retired at the age of 39. I lost it all. I lost money that I had put away from my kids. They didn't need to work. Lost it. Imagine, right? I worked like dog for. For, like, 15 years before working for Trump. Four in the morning to 11 at night. I built a massive business I sold it. I retired at 39 after almost dying, right? And then all of a sudden, here I come in. Everything is great. You know, it's. It's a lot of real estate deals, a lot of interesting stuff. And then, lo and behold, you know, he has the affairs, which, interestingly enough, while he has denied the allegations, you know, I've always stood by what Stormy says. I always stood by what Karen McDougal said. So why would I not stand behind this, too, if I. If I had firsthand info.
- [52:25]
Michael Cohen
What about the other accusers who actually accused him of rape? Like, this was obviously consensual with Stormy and Karen. What did you think?
- [52:32]
Unknown Speaker
Like. Like who? Like.
- [52:34]
Michael Cohen
I mean, Eugene Carroll or just the others that you had heard of that came from.
- [52:40]
Unknown Speaker
Well, I. I only know about Eugene Carroll the same way that you do. That was the press. I've never met her. I've never spoken to her. I know who Robbie Kaplan is, her lawyer. But I've never spoken to Eugene, and I didn't know that story until it was ultimately revealed, you know, and so I'm not gonna. You know, I'm not.
- [53:04]
Michael Cohen
But you've worked with him for a long time, so you knew his character, I'm sure. Right?
- [53:07]
Unknown Speaker
I never saw. I never saw him do that.
- [53:09]
Michael Cohen
Of course not. You wouldn't be in the room with him doing that. But, like, you knew him as a person. You knew his character, you know, And.
- [53:15]
Unknown Speaker
I've also gone on to turn around and to people. So, you know, there's this entire conversation that he made about going backstage, the Miss Universe Pageant or the Miss USA pageant, and that, you know, these girls that they're all walking around, you know, stark naked and so on. He's allowed to do it because he's the. He owns the. The pageant, the Miss Universe Organization. Well, it's kind of funny because there were three members of the board to Miss Universe. Donald Allen Weisselberg, former cfo, and me. We were the three. All three felons, by the way. All right? The three of us were the board for the Miss Universe Organization. And I've gone to many of those pageants, all right, from the Miss Teen usa, Miss usa, and also Miss Universe. I've been to many of them. And we would go backstage and we would go to the room in order to pick out the different women who were going to make the top 15, which was part of the rules. And it was. It was legitimate, the way that it was being done. I never saw a girl even in her underwear.
- [54:34]
Michael Cohen
All right?
- [54:35]
Unknown Speaker
So really, really and that's why I say that I don't even believe Trump is telling the truth on that. He's doing it for effect. It's like, I'm Donald Trump. I can go back there. Yeah. You know, all these gorgeous, gorgeous women, they're all running around nude. No, they're not. The most I ever saw is a woman in a Mr. Universe bathrobe. In fact, I even took one for my daughter. Right. I mean, I took one in the row. I said, hey. I said to. What was her name? Who was the. The head of the Miss Universe pageant? I. She was the president. I turn around and say, hey, can I get one of those? I'm sure my daughter would love it. Right? And so I. So I had one. And, you know, I never saw. I never saw anybody walking around naked. I never saw them in their underwear or a bra. It's just not true. Why he says it, I have no idea. Does he think it makes them look cool? I don't. I don't know what. I don't know what he's thinking on that one. But like I said, I've been to dozens. I've been to a dozen of them. Just. I never saw it.
- [55:40]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [55:41]
Unknown Speaker
I just never. I never saw it.
- [55:44]
Michael Cohen
Right. I mean, some of them complained, but you. You. You never. Yeah. You never saw it.
- [55:49]
Unknown Speaker
I saw them getting their hair done. I saw them getting makeup done. Right. While sitting in chairs in front of. In front of mirrors. But none of them were. Weren't dressed or wearing Mr. Universe robes.
- [56:02]
Michael Cohen
It probably wouldn't be the right place anyway for a board member to be hanging out where they're getting ready. Right.
- [56:07]
Unknown Speaker
First of all, we weren't hanging out. We went to the office that was in the back, in the backstage. It's not like we were just sitting there engaging in conversation. It's just you walk through because that's where the office was behind, you know, behind the back backstage. That's where Paula Shugart, who was the president, that's where her office was for the event. So we would go there. But none of that. I never saw any of it. All right. Just never saw any of it. So why he would say something like that, I have no idea. He made. He makes many statements, but he makes statements. That is sort of odd, right?
- [56:43]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. Why. Why did you have an issue with Miss Pennsylvania? Sheena Moynon?
- [56:48]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. What? She did. Okay. I'm glad you asked her. Sheena Monahan, I think. Yeah. Manon.
- [56:55]
Michael Cohen
She was from.
- [56:56]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, she was from Pennsylvania. Well, actually, she really wasn't. From Pennsylvania, she won the Miss Pennsylvania competition, became, you know, Miss US Miss USA for the competition, for it. The problem that I had is she went on television because she didn't win the competition. And so she went on television and she made a claim that the whole thing is rigged, that the pageant is bullshit. She defamed. She defamed the whatchamacallit. She defamed the Miss Universe organization. And, you know, I then contacted her, I contacted her father as well, and I said, she's gonna need to apologize and to retract her statements. And he was like, you know, well, she returned her crown, therefore she's not still under any non. Disclosure agreements or any agreements with the Miss Universe organization. I said, well, that's not really how it works. She defamed the organization. In essence, she was defaming that thousands and thousands and thousands of women over the years that compete, that this is not a fake competition. It's a real competition with real judges. Yeah. Maybe the first 20, 15 or 20, Donald has the say in terms of which ones that he wants to make it to say round three. Right. Because it's four, three, two and then one, which ones get to round three. But thereafter, it's in the hands of the judges. So I said, retract it or I'm going to sue you under the agreement, the arbitration agreement. And I did. Her lawyer screwed up and told her to ignore it, that she's no longer bound by the arbitration agreement. She was wrong. The arbitrator turned around, sided with me, and I was successful in the victory. Ultimately, what I said, because she had no money, her lawyer ended up having to go through his malpractice carrier because he advised her not to, not to appear and not to show up. And I went ahead and we just kept, you know, we just kept going with the arbitration clause and the, the arbitration agreement.
- [59:25]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. And she. Yeah. And okay, I. This is all like, kind of, it's just interesting because of the Trump. I'm trying to paint a picture of Trump's character. That's what I'm trying to do.
- [59:37]
Unknown Speaker
Well, I don't think one issue. Right. Paints the full character. I think we see many, many things. We see something that should really scare the living shit out of just about everybody. And that's the authoritarian character that is slowly eroding our democracy.
- [60:00]
Michael Cohen
Totally.
- [60:00]
Unknown Speaker
And, And I also matter.
- [60:03]
Michael Cohen
I think the treatment of women is.
- [60:04]
Unknown Speaker
Super important as well, 100%, by the way.
- [60:06]
Michael Cohen
And I think that, and I think that, you know, even in your memoir, which I remember Right. Now, you'd said that, you know, Donald had ogled your teenage daughter. I remember that.
- [60:18]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I wrote about it.
- [60:20]
Michael Cohen
I mean, that. That must have caught you off guard a little bit, right?
- [60:24]
Unknown Speaker
It sure did. But, you know, the problem is when you have a daughter who's really beautiful, you know, people, you know, are always ogling and Googling. Doesn't make it easier. Especially. He just didn't recognize that it was her coming off of the tennis court. I was like, hey, boss, he said.
- [60:40]
Michael Cohen
To you, though, when did she get so hot? I mean, I don't think anyone's. I don't. It just feels like a little.
- [60:47]
Unknown Speaker
It was creepy. It was.
- [60:48]
Michael Cohen
Jake.
- [60:49]
Unknown Speaker
It was totally. It was very creepy. And I was. And I was. And I was like, seriously? And then he turned around, he was like, oh, you know, he goes. He goes, you know, give me a kiss. And then he said to her, which I wrote in the book, and I don't. I don't deny any of it, he said. So he turns around and he says, you know, the sad thing, in about 10 years, he goes, I'll probably be dating one of your friends, you know, and it was just. It was just an odd comment. It was. It was super weird and creepy. But, you know, my daughter, you know, who, you know is incredibly mature, she just turned around and she was like, so nice to see you. Right. You know, I'm going to.
- [61:28]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, I'm going to go be running in the other direction. I mean, that's. That seems really. I mean, that seems really unfortunate. I'm sorry that happened to both of you.
- [61:39]
Unknown Speaker
She talked about it on CNN with Alison Camarader.
- [61:43]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. And I just think it's interesting, like, as we try to understand there are allegations all the time, you have to deal with it. You were on the front lines. It's interesting to take. Get your perspective on all of that. And I think the more we know, the more about the character. I think it helps us understand, too, why we don't have the full story out there.
- [62:10]
Unknown Speaker
And my point, Tara, just so you understand my point in all of this, I get it. You could ask me 100 questions, even though I'm supposed to be asking you questions, but you could ask me a thousand questions about Trump with Jane Doe, with Katie Johnson, with some of the other names that have been listed going back to, like, 1991, 1989. I had somebody ask me the question. I said, 1989. I just. I was in my first year of Law School. 1991, I was finishing law school. I said, you asking me questions about that I don't like. Yeah, to be honest with you, I don't.
- [62:59]
Michael Cohen
Just around the same like he was. He hadn't even been arrested. He had not been in, he had not been imprisoned. When you started working for Trump, he was still very much in the Palm beach orbit, very much the Upper East.
- [63:13]
Unknown Speaker
But I'm not a Palm beach guy. That's the whole thing.
- [63:17]
Michael Cohen
He had the biggest townhouse in the Upper east side.
- [63:19]
Unknown Speaker
Well, he doesn't have, he doesn't have anywhere near the biggest townhouse on the, on the east side. But it's a, it's a beautiful, large townhouse. Trust me, it's, it's large. It's far from the biggest. I just don't know him. Right. And I had nothing to do with the guy ever. I wasn't in his orbit. I wasn't part of that, you know, mega billion dollar class of people. I made a very good living. But not Jeffrey Epstein interest, you know what I mean? So, so, you know, we, we have these, these conversations. I'm tired, to be honest, of everybody speculating. Release the fricking file. And then all you and I would then be doing right now is reading through the pages of the file and engaging in conversation that truthfully is accurate as opposed to people's hypotheticals and innuendos. Right. You know, it's nice to think that you could take all the dots and combine them to make a, you know, connect the dot picture, but we can't and we shouldn't have to. The file exists. It was compiled by law enforcement over a dozen years. I want the file unredacted except for the names, and I want to be able to read it plainly.
- [64:35]
Michael Cohen
I wonder if that complaint is in the file too, the one that you mentioned. That's what I think. I wonder if it's in there.
- [64:40]
Unknown Speaker
You know, it's in the court files.
- [64:44]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [64:45]
Unknown Speaker
Is it in there? Maybe yes, maybe no. But we don't need that record in order to find it. You just need to go on Westmore Alexis, next year you'll find it.
- [64:54]
Michael Cohen
But maybe people don't know that and that's probably part of it too.
- [64:57]
Unknown Speaker
You know, you're going to tell me with the 10 million journalists, including the self proclaimed ones, that they don't know that you can go onto the court doc and pull up the file talking.
- [65:07]
Michael Cohen
About the general public that doesn't in like court doc land like you and I do.
- [65:13]
Unknown Speaker
So what about the millions of journalists that are writing about it on a daily basis? Let them start writing about it.
- [65:19]
Michael Cohen
Oh, it's been written about a lot. That's exactly why I was like, I gotta ask Michael about this, because it is every single day it's been written about. And people are constantly writing to me, what about Katie? What about Katie? What about Katie?
- [65:31]
Unknown Speaker
And I'm like, I get that all the time.
- [65:32]
Michael Cohen
I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. I don't have any facts. The only. You're the per. You're the person. Person I know that's closest to it. Her lawyer is never going to say anything. She decided to drop the case. Trump is never going to say anything. And I was like, who knows, maybe Michael.
- [65:46]
Unknown Speaker
So look, you know, I just want to say to the folks that are with us today, there's so much that's going on right now. And not to diminish the Epstein crimes, this isn't a file. This is an Epstein crime syndicate. And I believe it is imperative that we end up getting that file fully unredacted, so we can put an end to that chapter and move on to the things that really affect us each individually. And that is tariffs, it's the Constitution, it's our doj, it's the FBI, it's the nsa, all turning around and saying every single day as I write about, as I wrote in my book, revenge, the weaponization of the Department of Justice against Trump's critics. And people turn around like, yeah, you know, it's not going to happen to me. And I say, bullshit, it may happen to you, Tara, you're on the front lines, right? You make comments, everybody is on the front line and nobody, no US Citizen should ever turn around and say to themselves, could I possibly be targeted by my own government because the President doesn't like me, because I said something or I wrote something that pisses him off. That's not the way our Democratic Republic is supposed to exist. We're not supposed to be sending the military into Los Angeles in order to round up undocumented people. We're not supposed to turn around and federalize the District of Columbia, claiming things that even Cash Patel, even Keshe Patel turned around today and said wasn't accurate. Cash Patel said that crime in D.C. crime across the country has gone down, but Trump is making it seem like it's escaped from New York, that it's this crime infested district that he now needs to federalize. He's going to put FBI and law enforcement all together with DOJ and SBI in order to put an end to it they're going to get rid of the slums. That's the next thing I wanted to spend a minute and talk to you about because obviously, you know, DC he's talking about throwing people out of their homes in the District of Columbia because it's a blight, because he doesn't like the standard or the way that it looks. Seriously?
- [68:34]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [68:35]
Unknown Speaker
Where do we send them to Virginia? Do we send them to Connecticut? New Jersey? How about to Louisiana? Maybe to Arizona. Where are we. Maybe to Jordan or Egypt. Where are we sending these people? And don't they have a right to live where they want?
- [68:52]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're right. I have to run because it's five. But thank you for your time. Thanks for everyone on the line. It was great to meet you all and I think you have a lot more to talk about on this topic and I agree that it is a terrifying time for everyone who's trying to, to get down to the bottom of the truth. So bye everyone.
- [69:14]
Unknown Speaker
Carol, great seeing you. Next time that we're on together, we'll try to find more, more topics, you know, ones.
- [69:21]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [69:22]
Unknown Speaker
Or who knows, maybe the next time that we come on together, who knows, maybe they'll have released part of the file or all of the file.
- [69:28]
Michael Cohen
Sounds good. All right, thanks. Bye.
- [69:31]
Tara Palmieri
As you can see, this is still very much a mystery, a mystery that we don't have a lot of information about. But I think we may know a little bit more and we may know who knows more. I want to thank all of my new followers, my old followers who have been with me through this. I think it's almost six month journey. I want to thank my team, my producer Eric Abenate, my thumbnail artist Adam Stewart, Sarah Carney doing social media and Abby Baker who handled research on this story. You can subscribe to the Red Letter where I write my exclusive reporting and do my journalism. It's@tarapaul mary.com that's T A R A P A L m e r I.com and that's where you can get my exclusive reporting straight to your inbox. And also support me and my independent journalist by becoming a paid subscriber. You can also just rate, subscribe, send.
- [70:23]
Michael Cohen
This to your friends, leave comments, tell.
- [70:26]
Tara Palmieri
Everyone about this show. I'm still digging and working hard on this. I'll be back again soon.