← The Tara Palmeri Show
The Tara Palmeri Show
Future of News with Tara Palmeri, Don Lemon & Ben Shapiro at Reuters Next Conference
00:47:01
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- [00:01]
Tara Palmeri
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- [00:32]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Can I. You can hear me now? You can hear me now. Welcome back, everybody. Round of applause. Make sure you're awake. It's helping me as well. Thank you so much. Right, we've got really an amazing lineup this afternoon. We're gonna have a good time. First up, we have the future of news. How creators and influences are reshaping journalism. Of course, we know the future of news is not just being shaped by journalists, but by these creators and influencers who really command massive audiences. They set the agenda, they do things that traditional media sometimes struggles to do. But it does all raise new questions about accountability and about trust. This panel is all about that. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome to the stage the moderator from the Reuters Institute for the Stage of Journalism, Director Mitali Mukherjee, who will introduce the panel. Let's give them a round of applause.
- [01:30]
Don Lemon
Wow, look at this.
- [01:34]
Here we are.
- [01:36]
Ben Shapiro
That's so formal.
- [01:37]
Don Lemon
I know. Everybody's so, like, well behaved, right? And quiet. Hi, everybody.
- [01:43]
Ben Shapiro
Wow.
- [01:43]
Don Lemon
How are you guys? Everybody's great.
- [01:44]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
That's my cue.
- [01:48]
Hi. Good evening. It's good to see your full house. I'm Italian Mukherjee. I'm director of the Reuters Institute for Journalism, a part of the University of Oxford. It's a pleasure to see everyone here. It's been a fantastic day. I think I've been sort of soaking in a lot of conversations around economics, business, finance, news. And I think where we come from as an institute is that the core of what we focus on, which we think is a critical component, is the audience. And some of our research over the past couple of years has been focusing on exactly what you're going to hear from these fronts. Bright folks, which is what's happening in terms of a shift amongst audiences towards what we call as a broad bracket, news creators. But that tends to bring in a lot within it. So one of the things that we have been seeing over the last few years is that increasingly young audiences especially have been turning to spaces that are online, so primarily social media platforms, and turning to individuals rather than organizations. Which is news creators. They have an impact on public debate. They have a large audience. They tend to have quite often clear political sides. And our audiences do sort of identify with that. And this isn't a phenomenon that we're seeing worldwide, but it is something that is beginning to grow in terms of its heft. So you certainly saw that in the pre election campaign with Donald Trump and you are beginning to see that in countries like France. You're seeing it in other parts of global majority countries like India as well. So very, very fascinating trends. That's what we're going to dive into over the course of the Next Very snappy 40 minutes. And I've got some bright stars here, some of whom did the introductions for themselves. But maybe I will give this a shot.
- [03:41]
So please introduce with a generous applause first and foremost FTMM founder Tala Panmieri, Daily Wire co founder and the Ben Shapiro show host, Ben Shapiro, Lemon Media Network founder Don Lemon and the David Patman show host David Patman. Thank you very much all of you for joining in. So we're going to make the best use of our time. And let's start with a crunchy sort of context setting conversation for those who may not have come across your work. Tara, maybe I'll start with you a little bit about sort of your journey to hear why you chose to, because you are one of those who was sort of in the traditional news media space and then shifted to going solo, why you chose to do that and how you sort of differentiate or define the work that you're doing now versus what you were doing earlier.
- [04:32]
Tara Palmeri
I would say that I am now chasing the audience because the audience is no longer watching television anymore. They are on their phones, they're watching YouTube, they're on Instagram, they're on TikTok. And I started doing this a few years ago when I joined Pacific. I was at Politico where I wrote a newsletter which was how people were getting their news and they still are. And then I made my way to Puck and then I had a podcast with the ringer there. And this just felt like the next evolution to have a YouTube show and to have a substack when that is how so many people are getting their news and then creating reels and shorts for X and, you know, Instagram and TikTok. And I felt that I could apply the same rigor of investigative journalism analysis, just seeking the truth and that being my, my guiding force and light in this rather than politics commentary, you know, identity. I really feel like what I am seeking Is the same thing that I did at a newsroom that like ABC News where I worked or Politico or the New York Post or the Washington Examiner. I just have, I now have the ability as an independent journalist to pursue the stories I want to without having to, you know, think about does this fit into the identity of a network or is this something that my editors would like? I can just chase the stories that I've always wanted to and you know, have really anyone I want on to interview and pursue accountability journalism. And I think I've been doing this for 17 years. So I understand standards of journalism and I understand how to break through with real reporting. And I'm just using creator platforms now and I'm using some of the tools that they have used and become so great at like the authenticity, the showing of the process, talking through with the audience, creating a dialogue. I see that that has really worked to rebuild trust and I think why not do that with, with traditional journalism?
- [06:35]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
And what's the story arc, if you will?
- [06:37]
Ben Shapiro
I mean the story arc is that obviously I'm an opinion journalist. My opinion is very clear to people. I'm openly conservative. I don't try to hide the ball on that. I don't pretend at objectivity. I try to separate between what I think are the facts, which very often is relying on traditional news gathering sources and then my opinion, which I'm drawing on my ideology or my centralized values. I've been doing this for quite a long time. I started writing a syndicated column when I was 17. The Daily Wire launched about a decade ago in my co founder Jeremy Boring's pool house with a couple of podcasts. Obviously my podcast grew to be quite large. Our company currently does $200 million a year in revenue and is quite a large conservative media company with a reportorial contingent. We have some investigative reporters, we have a White House reporter, but remains a largely opinion based outlet. And so our audience understands who we are and be because of that, they know that we're not hiding the ball. We're not trying to lie about where we are coming from. The news is refracted through a prism of our values. And again, I try to be very clear in my own show between what is fact and what is my opinion. But I think that that's part of the trust that I have with the audience.
- [07:41]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Would it be fair to say you've moved on from the news creator to a standalone brand?
- [07:45]
Ben Shapiro
I think that that is fair. Although I think that the silos there are probably a little bit overdrawn I don't know what it means to be a news creator as opposed to standalone brand. I think you can be a news creator within. Within the standalone brand or vice versa.
- [07:58]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Don Lemon, the story Lemonheads, Is that what you encourage your followers to follow?
- [08:04]
Don Lemon
The Lemonheads? Yeah.
- [08:05]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Tell us the story.
- [08:06]
Don Lemon
So what's the question?
- [08:07]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
What do you, what's the story of why you decided to transition away from mainstream media space like cnn?
- [08:12]
Don Lemon
Well, I got pushed out of mainstream media.
- [08:16]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Just as long as I'm not saying it and you are.
- [08:19]
Don Lemon
But honestly, no, it's okay. I mean, it's reality and I'm about that and about truth. But I mean, if you, you know, one of my, the CMO of my former company said, you know, that if you open the, you are walking definition of a blessing in disguise. Because I think I got out at the right time. And I know that in the coming months, in the coming years, there are going to be people who will have to do. They'll be forced to do what I'm doing now. I didn't have to do this, but I still had more to say. But so what I'm doing is I'm going where the audience is and the audience is right here on this device or on.
- [08:58]
A tablet and less so on giant televisions. Even though my audience, when I look at my analytics, most people watch me on television. I think it's like 44% and there's like 42% who watch me on a smartphone. And then it goes on from there to tablets or whatever. But I'm going where the audience is. And I think that people want personality now. They're not getting news from a brand or letters or whatever. They're coming for people who are authentic people they trust, people they like, and they don't need the filter of a face full of makeup or a cocktail dress or a suit and. Or hair that's over, hair sprayed and a shiny desk and flashing. They want to get their information from people they like and trust without all the filters. And so that's what I'm doing right now. I'm just leaning. I don't even have a desk anymore because I don't want that between me and the audience. No barrier.
- [09:54]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
David, were you thrown out? Did you write a newsletter?
- [09:57]
David Patman
I wasn't thrown out, no. Very different path.
- [09:58]
Don Lemon
Wasn't quite thrown. I was like, push.
- [10:01]
David Patman
No, I came from the business world, actually, and I saw a lot of my MBA colleagues becoming bankers, financial advisors, private equity people, and that did not appeal to me. So I was able to take a year and say, I'm going to try to see if this could be a viable business. And if it's not, maybe I'll end up as a financial advisor after all. Unfortunately for me, that didn't happen. And I started early enough that it's been interesting. You talk about the desk. There's been this transition where there are these communicators of authority and credibility that have really changed over time. Because there was a point when I started where if it didn't look like you were on a CNN set, there was an instant judgment from the audience that this is not credible. And that has really changed over time. In fact, to the point where audiences like mine and maybe some of yours, they see that kind of more traditional staid look and they say, this feels stuffy. I actually want something different. And I think that we've benefited from timing and also technologically widespread high speed Internet access, a 95% reduction in the cost of the audio visual equipment that we use. All of those things happened for me at an incredibly convenient time where I was able to take a shot at this that would have been impossible 20, 30 years ago.
- [11:14]
Don Lemon
My channel was stagnant when I started. I rented this big studio in midtown and spent all this money on cameras and lights or whatever. And so it was fine, but it wasn't growing. And one day I said, you know what? I'm just gonna sit in my living room in front of the fireplace and I'm gonna do a show every day called Live at Five. It wasn't new. Anyone remember Sue Simmons and Chuck Scarborough back in the 80s, whatever, 70s, doing live at 5? And that's when the audience started to grow. When I put on a sweatshirt and sat in front of my fireplace and just started talking, not at them, but kind of with them and taking the comments and doing stories that they were interested in doing. And that's when my channel started to grow.
- [11:53]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Do you have a sense of the demographics of your audience mix? What does it look like?
- [11:56]
Tara Palmeri
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- [13:08]
Don Lemon
My audience is heavily women, mostly women, but probably it's about 60% women, maybe even 70% women. The west, the rest. Guys, the interesting thing is that people in traditional media, corporate media, they're constantly chasing the young demo.
- [13:24]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Yeah.
- [13:25]
Don Lemon
Which is great because I do have a young demo. But the, you know, I guess a blessing for me is coming from cable news where the demo is much older. So now when we have like open enrollment for health care, they're looking for me. Or in Medicare, they're looking for someone who has an older demographic. So I just think right now is a boon and an opportunity for us. And I don't think it's an. I know it's not an opportunity for people who are in traditional corporate media.
- [13:48]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Yeah. And I want to keep dipping into our research just to provide some perspective to this conversation, which is that in the US as a market, around a quarter of the audiences that we surveyed said that they turned two news creators for the news, which is almost equal to the number of people who said they turned to traditional news brands. So very much neck and neck in the US as a market, and that still puts it in the middle of the range. There are markets where news creators have sort of outpaced and of course there are markets where news creators still remain far behind from traditional news brands. But Ben, let me ask you this. If you were to drill it down to what you think is the USP of what you present and what's resonating with your audience, what would you point to?
- [14:27]
Ben Shapiro
Values? Authenticity. So I think that the word authenticity has come up a lot, and obviously I think that is the correct word. The problem with authenticity is that it is not really a substitute for credibility. Meaning there are lots and lots of people on the Internet who are authentic and who are absolutely non credible and spew bullshit all the time. For lack of a better word. And their authenticity can be pure. I mean, absolutely pure. They absolutely believe the bullshit that they're spewing at any given time. And so if an audience links up with that, they're going to get a bunch of bad information. And so actually, I think that the sort of moral duty of people in our space is actually higher than maybe it would be in a system that has more checks and balances, like a major news network or some sort of outlet. And so something that I personally try to take very seriously is the idea that I do have an audience. I'm speaking to them. It's my job to make them smarter, not stupider. It's my job to provide them with some level of context and knowledge and not just to say the things that may affirm their worldview, even if it feels good to them and feels good to me and may even, in fact, be helpful to the numbers to sort of just reaffirm whatever the viewer wants to hear.
- [15:27]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
How do you construct that firewall, if you will, of what sort of the rules of the game are or what the moral rules are? And are you transparent about communicating that to the audience? Is that something you sort of work at?
- [15:39]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, sure. I mean, my audience, I think, has known me for a while. Again, I'd be sort of the legacy side of the new media because my company is now a decade old, which means it's actually one of the older new media companies in many ways. Because of that, I think that, as I said, my broadcasting and my coverage is refracted through a set of values. I prize my values more than I prize political victory. And so what that means is that I'm willing to call out my own side when I feel that that's necessary. I obviously am conservative. It means I'm be more critical of people who are on the left because I disagree with their ideas more. But I think that what my audience expects from me and would be disappointed in me if I did not do is, is speak the truth, even when it applied to figures who are purportedly on, quote, unquote, our side.
- [16:24]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Tara, talk to us a little bit about the platforms and this video storytelling, which happens even in sort of very audio native formats. It's still streaming live on YouTube while you're doing a podcast. Was that an interesting shift to make? Why do you think there is the need to do that, to sort of play to both tracks while speaking to the audience?
- [16:42]
Don Lemon
I think. Tara, streaming now, aren't you?
- [16:44]
Tara Palmeri
I am streaming. I am streaming right now. Yeah. I Think. I mean, if you're already recording a podcast, why wouldn't you just put the video on? People don't really demand, like Don said, higher quality in terms of. I mean, I do it out of my house as well. I actually got the advice from don't get a studio. It's a waste of money. I have some lights, could pack them up in a car and, you know, you could do a traveling studio. I do think that the audience.
- [17:13]
They appreciate seeing you in your home. I mean, I'll get notes about my plants and stuff like that, but they see pictures of me, of my journey through life behind me, my ancestors, my trips, my reporting journeys. I just think it's a way to get into your world. I mean, they're kind of buying into you whether you like it or not. And since I'm newer to the independent media world, people are still getting to know me. And sometimes I think, like, the audience can be disappointed if they think, oh, well, you know, you seem to be too tough on someone who was on the left or too tough on someone who was on the right, and they're confused. And I think, like, the audience is trying to understand. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not here to reaffirm your worldview. I'm not here to feed you content that you want or only present facts that reaffirm your point of view. I'm just going to interview the person in front of me the same way that I would, no matter who they are.
- [18:07]
Don Lemon
And.
- [18:07]
Tara Palmeri
And whatever the facts bring me, I will bring to you. And this is the problem. Like, you can chase an audience and you can tell them exactly what they want to hear, but is that. Is that ethical? I mean, not to me. If that was the only way that I could have a channel, then I wouldn't do it. But I believe there are people out there that do want information that is based in, you know, just actually traditional journalism, but without the corporate hierarchy and all of the politics that you have to go to just get a story, actually publish. I mean, I've worked in newsrooms before, some of the biggest newsrooms in the world. It can be really hard, and they are very timid when it comes to the facts. And sometimes you just need to be able to say the facts. And. And, you know, the audiences, they. They'll. They'll figure out if you're for them or they're not. But last time I checked, there are millions. What is it, 200 million people on YouTube? They'll find you.
- [18:57]
Don Lemon
It's the largest TV network. It's.
- [19:00]
Tara Palmeri
I'd rather be there than on TV.
- [19:01]
David Patman
To piggyback on what Ben and Tara said about making a choice about authenticity, feeding the audience what they want, et cetera. I had kind of a tough moment with a part of my audience in the lead up to the last election where I think it must have been September or something like that, where I looked at the polling and I said, listen, we can kind of feel whatever we want about the way this is going, but the polling is worse for Kamala Harris in the seven key swing states than it was for Biden in 2020. It's worse than it was for Hillary in 2016. This just objects. I'm just doing. It's not even arithmetic. It's just. I'm looking at numbers and telling you what they are. And a very loud, but I think probably small slice of my audience said that we need positivity, that this is not what the moment calls for. And it was a really interesting moment because I could have just gone back to, guys, this looks great. Get out the. It just wasn't what it was. And depending on where you are in your career and kind of like where your show is in terms of maturity, it could be very tempting to kind of go back to what's the easiest thing for your audience, because everything is.
- [19:58]
Don Lemon
So immediate if you're doing a YouTube show. I do a live show. When I started, no one wanted video. And I mean, it hasn't even been two years. I started about a year and a half, a little over a year and a half ago, and I was pitching my show around and no one wanted video. And then now everyone wants video. Now people are open to live. People are doing lives. And before it was like, do you know tape content? It monetizes better and you can edit it and it looks better. Now people are open to live. So everything is evolving. So I just think that you have to adapt. And he's right. During the election, I would go out because I wanted to hear what people were saying, and I didn't get to do that when I was sitting on a big, shiny anchor desk, unless they transported you into. Teleported you into a certain place. And so I went out to the swing states, battleground states, and just talked to people. And then I started getting calls from Fox News and Newsmax, and, oh, my gosh, you're getting a lot of Trump out there. You must be really sad. I'm like, no, I'm not. It's a lot of Trump. People are saying they're voting for Trump in places and demographics that you didn't think would be saying that. And I got the same thing, Donna, you're curating that. We don't want to hear that. And I say, I'm sorry, I've got to give you the facts. So you can be pressured into having a bias towards just feeding people what they want, whether that's left or right, and you have to fight against that.
- [21:17]
Ben Shapiro
In the short term, it's a hit, but in the long term, it's actually an asset, a recipe for. Yeah, because in the short term, the easy incentive is to go for the sugar high of giving the audience precisely what they want. But you actually lose your authenticity. You lose what you are when you do that.
- [21:30]
Don Lemon
Because after the election, people say, don, you, you saw it, you called it right. Respect you for that. And they come back because then they realize you are actually telling them the truth.
- [21:38]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Yeah. Let me ask you this, David. And then I can get thoughts from all of you and you, Ben, specifically, one of the other things that we see in the US As a market is sort of the polarized nature of how people identify some of the creators. So if you were to draw down a list between how people identified politically, they would name a wholly different list of 15 personalities if they were right leaning versus when they were left leaning. Do you think that's reflecting an industry dynamic or do you think that's how the ecosystem has developed online?
- [22:09]
David Patman
Well, I think it's both. I think from the creator perspective, you're starting with what are your values? And hopefully, at least if it's not contrived, what is authentically you. And then that's going to put you somewhere on the political spectrum. I think, without a doubt, the way that algorithms engage directly with what triggers the most emotional response is a direct driver of the hyper polarized nature. And, you know, I'm guilty of it to a degree because I'm in this space. I also try to be honest with my audience about when it comes to things like gas prices and whether a president controls them. I'm very honest that this is overly politicized. It becomes a political football. And the truth is presidents can do a couple of things related to gas prices, and it's, it's mostly not about that. And so I try to balance the fact that I do have a perspective, I do have an opinion from a moral standpoint about what I think is best. But at the same time, I'm trying to be upfront about the fact that there are things that are completely Political. There are things that are outside of that and hopefully the audience appreciates that over the long term.
- [23:07]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah, the algorithms are destroying America. This is my informed view.
- [23:12]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Sounds like it should go.
- [23:12]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah, I mean, there we go, Don. Look at us come together as soon as. So the reason I say this is because. Because the TikTok and X algorithms in particular program for virality. Yes. And so they are programming for what is the strongest.
- [23:28]
Response.
- [23:28]
Don Lemon
The strongest.
- [23:30]
Ben Shapiro
Absolutely can be manipulated by outside actors. You've actually seen quite a bit of this on both TikTok as well as X. But people who are then in the real world use that as a substitute for polling, for example, to see politicians. And if they get a lot of retweets, they think what they're saying is popular and then they do more, more of it. And so you'll see it bleed over into the real world. Trends that you would never get if you just walked around and talked to normal humans suddenly start popping up when you talk around with normal humans because they've been watching it online and it's been really, really pushed. And so, you know, when people say, how do we get back to normal? My, my first recommendation is to do something that actually is the opposite of what our industry should be saying, which is get offline. Like actually turn off your phone and go to a place with actual human beings and have conversations with those people. And you know, for. This is where I make my, my non religious, religious pitch. Everybody needs a form of Sabbath. You should get off your phone on Friday night, you should get back on your phone on Saturday night and just be completely disconnected from everything that's going on and be in a place where everybody who, you know, is, you know.
- [24:28]
Bonding over values and over, over shared things that the more online we are, the more polarized we are. And I think that's been the opposite of the way that we've viewed politics for, for decades in the country. The more informed you are, the better the, the electorate's going to be. And it turns out that because our informational ecosystem is so polluted and because it is actually programming to the ID inside all of us, what that means is that probably the more time you're spending on X or the more time you're spending on TikTok, maybe the less informed you are and also the more polarized you are and the more out of touch with reality you are.
- [24:55]
Don Lemon
That's true. People think that they live on. I have a producer who lives on Twitter and every time I ask him for something he goes to Twitter. And I said, do you ever do research other than Twitter?
- [25:04]
Ben Shapiro
Touch some grass.
- [25:05]
Don Lemon
Yeah, yeah, touch some grass. But I do It' interesting that Ben, you say that, because I do every single day I tell people because I'm on go live at 10 and 5 and I tell them between that they can be informed without being inundated, they can read. And until then, I tell them, until I see you at five o', clock, turn the TV off.
- [25:24]
David Patman
And I mean watch you, but I.
- [25:26]
Don Lemon
Mean turn the TV off or turn your. And then. And read and pick your moments. But I rarely do content. Every once in a while I'll do weekend content because I think it's important to give people a break. And I do think that people should be in community with each other and that's something that we should all be pushing. It doesn't, you know, you don't make that much more revenue or become that much more successful by constantly pushing, even on the weekends. Content, content, content. I think you give people a break and make them want you, you know.
- [25:52]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
And the two big platforms in the US are X and YouTube. That's kind of the spaces where people are driven to the other. TikTok's enormous stocks, enormous. But it's probably got a bit more. It's not sort of hardcore news, if you will. It's people looking at lifestyle things as well. And within X and YouTube, there is sort of a primary preponderance, if you will, of right wing identified voices. Is there a reason you think for that? Do you think they've sort of moved ahead of the curve and there's more faces emerging from a mochi moment. From Mark, who writes, I just want to thank you for making GLP1s affordable. What would have been over $1,000 a month is just $99 a month with.
- [26:33]
Tara Palmeri
Mochi, money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight. Three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet.
- [26:40]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
You're the best. Thanks, Mark.
- [26:42]
Tara Palmeri
I'm Mayra Amit, founder, Emoji Health. To find your mochi moment, visit join.
- [26:47]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Mochi.Com Mark is a Mochi member, compensated for his story. The left, what do you put that down?
- [26:54]
Ben Shapiro
I mean, I think that you see this quite frequently in terms of new technologies, that the right is the first to adapt because they feel shut out of traditional spaces. So for example, the right was very shut out of TV spaces. Cable and emerges, Fox News emerges because the right's like, okay, we need someplace to go. And then after cable becomes more balanced, MSNBC comes up and cnn once you have all those outlets, then the right is like, okay, well, you know, maybe we'll have to try talk radio. Talk radio is now going to be our new things in the 90s, the early 90s. You get that. So the timeline's off here, but that's basically the ideal. When the right feels squeezed in a particular legacy space, they're the first to adapt to a new space. And so for me, you know, my op EDS weren't going to be appearing in the New York Times. And so the idea of start your own online outlet is a lot more attractive than somebody who is going to have access to the New York Times. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when terrorist former employer Politico invited me to write a newsletter for Politico, and there was basically a riot in the newsroom because how dare I write the holy and sanctified Politico morning newsletter? And so the right is the first to adapt. And then what happens is that people realize there's a market there and they move into that market and then a new market emerges. So I think there's definitely something to that. For sure.
- [27:57]
David Patman
I think that's true. But the left has also been very hesitant to really fund a lot of these operations at a bigger level.
- [28:05]
That I think has held back also the independent left spaces where it's. It's mostly people like me who are just building slowly over time. And there really hasn't been any large influx or especially with younger people as they get into the age where you might think about starting to produce content. It's been missing. And a lot of my colleagues have said we all would have. Could have gotten going far more quickly on some of these platforms if someone had recognized the potential more quickly, had come in more rapidly to. To fill the gap that was then subsequently created as the right came in. There just really hasn't been that funding.
- [28:38]
Don Lemon
It's a short sight on the. On the left or even center if you're on the right. What is. What is it? Red Sea Ventures or something like a.
- [28:45]
Ben Shapiro
Red seat, talking about the company. That's. That's.
- [28:48]
Don Lemon
You have the, you know, pouring money into conservative spaces. And you don't see that on the left or even center left or even starting to.
- [28:55]
Tara Palmeri
There's. But they have these like packs now. What is it called? All of these creators are part of chorus. They're all getting supported through the.
- [29:03]
Don Lemon
But not nearly to the.
- [29:05]
Tara Palmeri
No, they're behind. But they didn't need it because they could just go to cable news and.
- [29:09]
Ben Shapiro
Get interviews over and over is that a lot of people who would be funders for these sorts of enterprises are like, well, why do I need to fund that? We already own CNN or msnbc.
- [29:17]
David Patman
That's true. I think they were behind the curve in realizing that the power of that was diminished.
- [29:21]
Ben Shapiro
I totally agree with you.
- [29:21]
Don Lemon
Yeah.
- [29:22]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Tara, one question to you before we move from sort of context setting to challenges, which I'm sure there are many of, what also sort of comes through in a lot of our research, and this isn't unique just to the US as a market, is that if you were to map out the top few creators, most often it would be men. And particularly with sort of the political op ed style of communicating to audiences. Is that a challenge as you see it? Is it a kind of a state of play? How do you approach it?
- [29:50]
Tara Palmeri
I just don't think there are as many women doing this yet. I hope to be. You know, there's Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens, there are some on the right and now there are women on the left that are doing it. The spare is like a huge star under the desk news. I just think it's maybe a little bit. Taking a little bit longer and I think eventually it'll be more balanced. I think there will be more women. But.
- [30:17]
All of the polling and everything says that men still will listen to women. Actually, a huge audience of mine is mentioned. You know, like.
- [30:23]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Yeah, I was going to.
- [30:24]
Tara Palmeri
It's actually disproportionately more male than female. Men like politics. I mean, so I hope that in a few years from now it's way more balanced. But I just look at it as the news industry evolved as well. It started off with all men. Yeah.
- [30:39]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
And I think if you were to widen from news creators to alternative news creators, people who do other things but also talk about the news, you'd probably have a wider mix gender wise there.
- [30:49]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah. You're also asking us to go out on our own and create our own businesses, you know, create our own platforms, independent media, you know, small businesses, essentially what you're starting at. And so, you know, women have to be incentivized to see that there is revenue there for them. And I think they are seeing it and they're. I hope to one day be a model for other women who want to do this.
- [31:10]
Don Lemon
I think you are already. I think you are really a trailblazer doing this. It's interesting though in a. Because in America you don't see a lot of women on the news side. You do, you know, you have like Alex Cooper. Right. Who does, you know, sort of entertainment, no shade of it, but it's a whole different thing. More of a creator than a journalist. But I find that, I think in Turkey and other countries, women who give news and information are huge, huge. Have independent voices and independent roles, and they're doing really, really well. It's just interesting here in the United States, it hasn't really happens, I think.
- [31:43]
Tara Palmeri
When cable news starts to lose more and more journalists, when there is. When they, you know, as they continue with their layoffs, as they seem to do, more women who have. I had a unique background. I was a White House correspondent for network. I already knew how to do broadcast journalism. I was a podcast host. I wrote a newsletter. It made sense for a lot of people. They may have only been a print reporter their entire life or they've only been a broadcast journalist. So it was an easier leap for me to do this. And I just think that you just have to take the leap. And I think it's cool to see women doing it all the time. Who knows, maybe we'll create a lady collective or something.
- [32:16]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
I'm only smiling because I can pick up a trend here. Cable news is on the Wane. Stop watching TV. Listen to me at 5. There's a mood here. Let's talk about the challenges. David, maybe start with you and pick up on something that Tara said. It's a treadmill in many ways, isn't it? It's kind of. It's monetization. It's how do I put out more content, how do I get more engagement? How do you manage all of that when you're kind of a one man, one woman machine?
- [32:44]
David Patman
Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of options. One is you really do do everything yourself and you kind of have to enjoy the business side of it. The other is you start to take on a structure that is a little more corporate and you start delegating in that way or some combination of the two. I enjoy the business side of it, but I also can't do it myself anymore. So I have a team. There are a lot of people, people that. That don't. I think one of the challenges is as it becomes clear that the independent news space can be lucrative and it can be interesting and you can build a large audience. Legacy and corporate media is going to want to come into it, and to a degree, they already have. You look at some of the largest YouTube news channels, they are legacy companies that have just dumped huge money to rapidly scale YouTube channels. And so you might start to get that same 80, 20 or even 9010, where overwhelmingly those who come in with the funds are going to very quickly kind of scoop up market share. The other thing that's interesting is for a long time when I was doing this, when new people came into the market, I didn't really see them as competitors in the sense that the pie was growing so quickly that it was just great for everybody. I think now it's starting to get to the point, especially as people can only consume so much stuff in a day. There's 24 hours in a day, et cetera. It's less clear to me now. I do think the spaces are starting to get a little bit more crowded where there is more of a shift between creators rather than like we're just growing the pie at the same time that everybody's getting their slice. So I don't know where that goes in the next five to eight years.
- [34:07]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Don you.
- [34:07]
Don Lemon
Yeah, I don't know either. I don't look at people as. As competitors either. It's interesting because I would look at the folks on other networks when I was in traditional media as competitors, but, you know, we support each other. Tara's on my channel all the time. If she invites me to do something, I'll do it. I can call people, you know, I use my own Rolodex as, you know, instead of a booker, you know, and I get people to come on who have their own independent channels and we support each other.
- [34:32]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Is it because you don't have the framework or structure or support that a traditional or legacy news organization could give you that? It's, it's scrappy, of course, but you need to sort of hold each other.
- [34:41]
Don Lemon
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- [34:58]
David Patman
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- [35:02]
Don Lemon
Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with lifelock. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply. Yeah, and in terms of what you said about, about creating the channel, the creating channels and legacy media, I don't think that they really had gotten that. I shouldn't probably give away the secret that they don't need to use so many resources to do what they do because.
- [35:32]
I put on coverage. Jim Acosta, Joy Reid and I did coverage of two different things. A huge protest. And.
- [35:43]
I forget what the other event was. And we did it with my small team, which is a team of four people doing it. Tara was part of it for, you know, and we didn't have to have 30 producers and a writer and a control room and all of those things. And it was network quality coverage that people tune into and they, it was actually more interesting because we didn't have a, it didn't, it wasn't seen through a corporate filter. We went pushing through a corporate filter.
- [36:08]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah.
- [36:09]
Don Lemon
And saying, you know, can I say this? Is a boss going to be mad if I happen to insult Donald Trump even inadvertently? Is he going to call the, the company and say, get rid of that guy on the anchor desk? We don't have those challenges.
- [36:24]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Yeah, sure. One is the financial burnout and the other is the creative burnout. Ben, do you want to jump in on that? I mean, WDF shut down.
- [36:30]
Ben Shapiro
Yeah. I mean, when the. I mean, I believe I have not missed a day of work that was not a company holiday in four years, including vacations with my family. Right. Because if you're not on the air, then it's not like there's a substitute host on my show, for example. And so, yeah, it can burn you out. Plus, I mean, this news cycle has been increasingly frenetic for over a decade. And I keep looking around going, when is somebody going to take a breath? And nobody has taken a breath and it just gets more psychotic every single moment. And so at a certain point, it went from being, you know, fun to kind of a drag. And sometimes it goes back to being fun. But the reality is that like anything else, you know, on a daily basis, it sort of depends on what you're covering, whether it's interesting. The news cycle is so fast now that a cycle that would have taken two weeks now takes two days. And by day three, you're kind of bored with the topic already and you got to move on to the next thing and so is the audience. And so that's, that's very difficult. You know, in terms of the business, I will say I'm in a bit of a different position because we actually scaled like a very large scale company. What that meant was bringing on other creators, some for good, some for ill. And, and I think about that, not.
- [37:31]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Particularly hashtag no regrets.
- [37:33]
Ben Shapiro
But, yeah, regrets we have. But the, but, you know, I think that because that as all of us kind of mature in our spaces, we're going to have to face a lot of the same questions that legacy media outlets face about, you know, who you want on Your air. What are the editorial standards? What are the things you have to do? And those are challenges that you know, thank God we have those challenges because we grew so large. But they are challenges for sure.
- [37:54]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Yeah. I realize we're almost at Diamond. There's so many questions. I apologize, we haven't had time because the conversation was so great. But I encourage you to find news creators and speak to them. But let me close with sort of two sentence from each of you and this is a bit of a challenge. One, how do you respond to the observation that news creators are essentially remixers? And the second, if you had kind of a top tip, aside from don't blow up so many resources, what would it be for traditional news media organizations? Do you want to.
- [38:25]
Don Lemon
Oh boy.
- [38:25]
David Patman
Starting with me? Well, I think so. On the. Tell me the first one again. I want to go.
- [38:30]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
First one is, are news creators essentially newsree?
- [38:33]
David Patman
Oh, yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. But I see that as a feature rather than a bug. And I think the audience appreciates, appreciates that there is still this kind of underbelly of close to straight news reporting. And we're layering opinion hopefully in an authentic and genuine way. And I think that's actually the appeal and sort of like the parasocial relationship. And do you res. Does a person's personality resonate with the audience? I think that that's a feature rather than a bug as far. And tell me the second part.
- [39:00]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Top tip, top tip.
- [39:01]
David Patman
Okay. The top tip is just start creating the content right away. There's so many conversations I have with people who want to start and they're asking me about publicists and they're asking me about microphones and lighting and who can print their merch. And all of this stuff is completely irrelevant. The number one thing is get the content onto the platforms as quickly as possible. Start getting feedback iterate based on that. That's really the big thing you have to do.
- [39:25]
Don Lemon
I'll say what he said. I do think that certain creators are remixers and I see a difference between a creator and a journalist. And as long as you say what you are, then I'm okay with it. But there are some, you know, there are some journalists who aren't doing journalism and there are some creators who are actually doing a good job at journalism. So I don't think that there's one or the other. I just think that both can coexist and that we have to adapt to the new environment. My. What I would say is perfection is boring. And so if you're going to do it again, what he said, Just do it and don't worry about it being perfect. And don't let. Yeah, perfect be the enemy of the good. I think that's. And have integrity.
- [40:07]
Ben Shapiro
So, yeah, I mean, as far as us being remixers, obviously we're not the ones who are doing a lot of the core reporting. I think that that's always been true. And so sometimes we're spotting a buried lead in paragraph 19 that may be, you know, not elevated in a way that we might find interesting. And I think that that is a real service. But to pretend that the legacy media doesn't have a continuing role is silly. I think the question you asked was about tips for the leg. So the tips for the legacy media. I think the number one thing for the legacy media is acknowledge your bias. I think that the legacy media are constantly suggesting that they are fully objective, floating above the fray, fully capable of removing themselves from the sort of day to day politics. And I admire the attempt by many people to do that. I actually do think that that's a useful thing and I think journalistic practices are necessary. But it also happens to be that if you want to know the number one critique of legacy media from the right, and this has been true for decades, all the errors fall in the same direction. And yet we keep hearing about objectivity. If all the errors are going in one direction and we keep hearing how objective the journalists are, we start to doubt that you're telling us the truth, not just about your own objectivity, but everything you're saying. And so I think one of the things that, you know, I'll mention my friend Barry Weiss. I think what Barry is trying to do at CBS News is quite good actually. I think bringing on people of openly political views from different perspectives to discuss issues is really important. And I hope that more legacy media institutions would acknowledge how polarized we are. And the way to solve the polarization is not to ignore it is to host conversations between people who disagree.
- [41:34]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, I would say I still do think about my maybe I still think about what I can offer that's new, that hasn't been reported and why you might find value in my channel. So I do actually call sources. I do try to break stories. Some days they're big, some days they're not. Some days it's news analysis. Some days I'm just calling sources on the Hill and trying to make sense of the last election. And you know, I'll write something on Substack and I'll host a show. Obviously the Epstein story. Has been really big, but I also was covering that really closely when a lot of people weren't for the past six years. So I've been able to offer new reporting, new analysis and exclusives. But yeah, I believe legacy media has a huge value. I do use their reporting as support for my reporting and often it leads to future reporting. And in some ways, yeah, we're remixers. But like you said, people want to feel like there is. They like you, they like your personality, they like the way you call shots. I think we need more referees, honestly than we need to have people on tribes online. And I try to be a referee. That's how I see myself in this game. And yeah, I'm a person. Of course, we all grow up with our biases just by the fact of, you know, being a first generation American. I'll have a bias because of that and it's subconscious, but I try not to bring it into everything. So.
- [42:57]
That'S my angle for this world. And my tip is to do it exactly. You know how many people, I'm sure, same thing people ask all the time. I want to do what you're doing. Okay, well then just put a camera in front of your face and start talking. That's the first step.
- [43:13]
Don Lemon
I didn't hear the question you said to what was the legacy media?
- [43:17]
Ben Shapiro
Oh, well, my advice, don't fire nonline.
- [43:20]
Don Lemon
I agree, I agree somewhat. Well, that's true. Thank you very much. We agree on a lot. And I do agree somewhat of what you said. This is a conversation that we used to have when we were, when he would come on my show. But I don't think that journalists are as biased maybe as you think, have a different opinion of what's happening at cbs. But my, my thing would be for the corporation to get out of the newsroom.
- [43:42]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Yeah.
- [43:43]
Don Lemon
Because the problem is not with the journalists, it's with the gatekeepers. And if the corporation becomes the gatekeeper, then there's going to be constant influence from the people that we're supposed to be holding accountable. Like the people in Washington D.C. the people who own things, the wealthy people, the oligarchs, the billionaires, those are the people that we're supposed to be holding accountable. And if they are filtering, if we are getting information that's filtered through them and we must do that or legacy media, then the game is over.
- [44:13]
Tara Palmeri
And also just the deal making for, you know, just to get the interview, the scoop that, you know, the, it's just so, so political inside of the newsroom. Yeah, yeah. And that's the great thing about what we're creating, we create our own newsrooms.
- [44:26]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
And lose the disc completely out time. Big round of applause please for our news creators today. Thank you all very much.
- [44:37]
David Patman
All right.
- [44:44]
Ben Shapiro
Wow.
- [44:44]
Moderator (unnamed, possibly event host)
Amazing discussion, everyone. I want to mention that the Reuters journalists have to adhere to the Reuters trust principles, which is something that, having come from many years as a broadcast journalist behind an anchor desk, has been very impressive to me. And I would even point out I spoke to the newly appointed reporter who covers the beauty beat. She can't even receive like an eyeshadow for free. That's how committed we are to making sure that we are free and fair in our reporting.
- [45:14]
Tara Palmeri
That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri Show. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you like this show, please rate it, subscribe, follow, share it with all of your friends. Please leave comments. If you like my reporting, you can go to Tara Palmeri.com that's T A R A P A L M E ERI. You can sign up for the Red letter. That's where you can get all of my exclusive reporting and my independent journalism straight to your inbox. It is how you can support my independent journalism and I will keep at it. Thanks to you. I want to thank my producer Eric Abenate. I want to thank Abby Baker who does my research and my social media and Adam Stewart on the thumbnails. I'll be back again this week. I'm thankful for all of you. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving week and you are able to take it a little slower.