B (3:06)

She was more playboy than Runway.

C (3:08)

Yeah, exactly. And that's why she's in Sports Illustrated. Another thing that Antoine Berglass shot, he shot her about 12 times. Now, Antoine claims that he wasn't friend with friends with Epstein at the time, but he knew Paolo Zampoli, who knew Epstein at the time. And that was how he was tipped off to Melania through Paolo, because Paolo was, was, you know, Melania's agent at ID Models and he was friends with Epstein. And we're supposed to, you know, it's interesting. And so it all, it all reminds you about the world that sort of thrust Melania from being kind of this no name girl from Ljubljana or wherever in Slovenia to what is now the First Lady. And I mean, sometimes when I hear her speak, I think it's like almost programmatic, like the way that she talks. It's like she's been preparing for this her whole life to be the first lady in a lot of ways.

B (4:03)

So, dude, they did a thing. I read it. I read this thing about how Donald Trump almost ran for office in like 2008. It was like right after you, you know, the Apprentice was really hot. And he's always had this like dream of being the president in terms of like what it means to be a celebrity and like remembered forever as a president. And they did like a fake rally to see how they had staged, like they had gamed out a fake rally to see how it would go with Melania being presented as the first lady and really being cast as this idea of what the next first lady would be. So I find it really interesting that she came here, you know, and a lot of her work was very sexy, very Playboy esque, very Maxim magazine, very suggestive, like you said. And then they were trying to make this transition for her to then take on what is usually considered a very prudish, very reserved first lady role.

C (4:51)

Jackie O.

B (4:53)

And I wonder, you know, and maybe I'm just like pilled by how much of the Epstein files I've read. And we have a piece Coming out on Steve Bannon and Epstein tomorrow. And the way that Epstein's goals were varied, but one of them was to make sex and the taboo. And this idea of, like, owning women in some ways or casting them to be certain people, people, not taboo. So I'm like, okay, was Melania part of the plan? Because it was like, we're going to have a first lady with nudes. Like, maybe that was part of it. Like, this idea that the expectation for the first lady was no longer to be this highly educated, extremely classy, very reserved, American doll type girl, and now it's like to have the vixen is what?

C (5:36)

Right. Well, I think that Trump wanted the vixen. I. And I don't know if you saw this in the Epstein files where Epstein's emailing something about how Trump was going on about what a great piece of, you know, what Melania is. I don't. I think Trump liked that about her. He liked having a sexy. He wasn't going to be with a woman who wasn't sexy. Right. But I think he also wanted that woman to fit into the role as first lady. Because even. Listen, I know from covering Trump since I was a cub reporter at the New York Post starting in, like, 2010, that he always talked to people about wanting to be president. And before that, he wanted to run as a Democrat, like, decades earlier than that. He was meeting with people. This is not some idea that just came into his head recently. He's always wanted to be president. So I think he thought about that when he was looking for his girlfriend that he would come out with.

B (6:24)

Obviously wouldn't been a good first first lady. I think Ivana Trump would have been a great first lady. You want to talk about somebody who knew how to run a business or could have kept up that kind of, like, classy, like, educated lady thing. She would have been.

C (6:38)

She is brilliant. Yes, I agree with you. Yeah, I agree. But I think. I think she. They had a very tumultuous relationship.

B (6:46)

He wanted the. The Melania. It's so interesting that he wanted the first lady to not be American for how incredibly racist and xenophobic he is against all other immigrants. That his first lady, his, like, picture of what should represent women in America is a Slovenian immigrant.

C (7:01)

Well, he's also now expanded visas to people from South Africa, presumably white people, because he likes the way they look. And that's why he likes people from Denmark and from the Scandinavian countries. It's like, okay, just tell us what you really want. And remember the girl from Kazakhstan And Colombia, who got her, who.

B (7:22)

Who was.

C (7:23)

Was arrested. And then apparently mom, Donnie showed a picture of her because she was hot. And he was like, okay, yeah, cool, let her go. So, yeah, I think you can stay as long as. As long as you look the part or you're hot enough for the president. But, you know, back to Melania. She's being photographed by Antwan. And this is around the same time she's trying to get a visa, a green card. She ends up getting one. We don't know. You know, Antoine says it wasn't through her. The Genius. The Genius visa. The Einstein. The Einstein visa for people with incredible skills. But Antoine did help Jeffrey Epstein girlfriend Karina Schuliac get obtain a visa, a short term visa.

B (8:08)

Right, with the lesbian marriage.

C (8:11)

No, I don't think it was a lesbian married a woman.

B (8:13)

Didn't she?

C (8:14)

It was like, oh, that might be, but this is not what Antoine did for them. Antoine just got her a temporary visa by helping her find lodging in Saint Barts as

B (8:25)

she goes on to marry a woman. Because it was Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriend. He certainly wasn't going to have her marry a man and he wasn't going to marry her and take that on. So she married a woman.

C (8:33)

Right.

B (8:33)

So that it was like, you know, total marriage fraud.

C (8:37)

Yes. Okay, let's keep going though, with this. So Antoine, last time he photographs Melania's for Haute Living, 2011. Unclear if they remain in contact afterwards, but he's certainly in that whole Paolo Zampoli world. Paolo is obviously, I think he's an ambassador. Been twice an ambassador in the Trump administration. And so. But after Jeffrey Epstein goes to jail and he comes out of jail, he's hiring Antoine to do day shoots for him, presumably of nudes, according to the files in which he says there won't. That we won't need styling because they're nudes. He claims they weren't. But then Antoine sent him black and white nudes, according to files. He said that they're all famous nudes. That. And he says there are no victims. And I'm adding in all of the things that he says to be as precise as possible. And you know, there are another. A number of other things that they exchange that are concerning like 72 files that are all blanked out of pictures that we. Sorry, 65 files that are all blanked out that we've never seen. And you know, Epstein helps his son to try to get an internship. His son is now an equity equity trader. But probably the most disturbing email of them all. In the many exchange between Epstein and oh, including actually an ask from Woody Allen to help find a girl from 20 to 24 to being one of his movies. Okay. The worst email of them all is an email that Epstein has forwarded that was originally sent by Antoine Verglass about Scopaline. And I think we have to like explain that to everyone.

B (10:13)

Yes, we, we talked about this. Also. Scopaline, it's. It creates a super roofy essentially. Now it can be used for motion sickness. There's like a very small amount of scopoline that gets used in motion sickness patches. But. But when you overdose on it or you are sort of like, you know, making up your own doses, it is a drug. It's called Angel Trumpet. On the streets, I found out, removes your ability, your inhibitions. It makes you extremely directable. Almost as if you're hypnotized and sort of like Arrested Development style or was a real forget me not. You don't remember the things that you said. Now, I thought it was interesting that Jeffrey Epstein be interested in cultivating these plants not just to abuse women or to get them to remove their inhibitions and do whatever he wanted. But certainly this could be used on business people also. This could be used on anybody.

C (11:00)

Blow it into their face. That's the crazy thing. It is that easy to administer. You can just blow it into someone's face. It makes you childlike, eliminates free will. It's a lethal plan. It's lethal as well. Like you said, when administered properly, it can be used to count counter motion sickness. But the. But what? He sent this article about it. It was all the scary ways. It was a Daily Mail article and somehow it ended up in Jeffrey Epstein's inbox. Meanwhile, the derivative, the. The plant that you get scopoline from, it's called a trumpet plant.

B (11:34)

Yeah.

C (11:34)

And according to Epstein's emails, he kept inquiring about the trumpet plant twice in the Epstein vals that we've seen so far. From his manager in the Virgin Islands to ask, how are the trumpet plants? What's going on? Trumpet, like he's growing this plant. Now, granted, they are beautiful bell plant and some people put them in their gardens, but I've also heard people say that, like, we don't want them in our gardens because they are so dangerous.

B (12:01)

Yeah.

C (12:02)

Now, this is not to say that Melania Trump had to was administered trumpet plants or anything like that. And Berglos says that he's never given anyone trumpet plant scopoline or done anything like that against their Will. But it's a very curious email. He doesn't remember how it got sent to the inbox of a pedophile.

B (12:21)

So suspicious.

C (12:23)

Yeah, it's very weird, let's just say that. But I don't know, you know, the. The more I see all these connections and the more, you know that President Trump is mentioned so many times in the files, obviously Bill Clinton is mentioned so many times in the files, and the more that you realize how much the modeling ecosystem that Melania was a part of was so penetrated by Jeffrey Epstein. And they are obviously. They obviously knew each other. I mean, there were emails that were. Email that was exchanged between Melania and Galen. If Hillary Clinton has to testify, why not Melania Trump?

B (12:55)

Of course. I mean, it just. It's not even. It shouldn't even be a partisan thing. It's. The standard has been set. She is actually emailing back and forth with people within this. This universe. She should absolutely have to testify. If not to clear her own name of the innocence that she claims she has. Why wouldn't she want to be able to testify? To say, look, this guy was a creep. I came in, I was a young person. These are the ways that he, you know, did whatever with me. Why wouldn't. If I were her, I'd want to testify. I'd be like, I want to be clear to this. I had nothing to do with this guy or I wasn't involved in his crimes. But they won't. They'll protect her through and through. I don't know that she's, you know, what would she say? Like, this is the thing that I see on the Trump side of things, too, also, is that there was a lot of. Maybe they. They weren't putting out the Epstein files, or maybe these 3,000 3 million files that we haven't even seen yet that are apparently worse than what we already have seen, which is egregious, is because he's trying to protect Melania. How much more Melania is in there? Are her nudes in there? I mean, I think if you do sex work, you should be proud of it. Sex work is valid work. Cardi B. She owns her shit, okay? She's like, I was a good stripper, I'm a great rapper, and I'm a wonderful mother. You can. Women contain multitudes. Don't be ashamed of that part. But if you were kiking with Epstein or helping him find girls or, you know, lying about your visa application, I mean, according to Trump's policies, those are all deportable offenses.

C (14:19)

Yeah. So That's a lot. I mean, I could see the whole. Oh, I mean, I don't agree with it, but don't depose the president. I actually think if you are a public servant, you should be deposed. But they made the argument that presidents don't. They don't have to, you know, face subpoenas and sit down. But Bill Clinton just did. And so did Hillary Clinton. And listen, I think it was the right thing to do for Hillary Clinton to, To have to be. To be deposed because she was friends with Glenn. I mean, even if just casually, she had. She was at Chelsea Clinton's wedding. And I know that she was a plus one. But the idea that Chelsea Clinton's wedding wasn't heavily vetted is insane. And she was invited as a privileged guest to the Clinton Global Initiative. And her husband went on Jeffrey Epstein's plane 27 times and he was at the White House 17 times. So the idea that she had no idea about Jeffrey Epstein or Galinda Maxwell is something that I find very hard to believe. And she did the right thing by testifying. Bill Clinton did the right thing by testifying. Again, we have photographs of Melania with Ghislaine Epstein and Trump. We know that President Trump's name is mentioned thousands of times. We know Melania's name is mentioned as well. So if we're going to make a former first lady testify, then the current first lady should testify as. Absolutely. And the President should as well.

B (15:38)

It's apples to apples comparison. It's the exact same situation. And as far as the President shouldn't have to do this or that or there's some sort of national security involved. Old boy was just down mar a lago running operations in Iran from a ballroom. So, like he doesn't do anything to protect national security as it is. So I'm not willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that testifying in the Epstein trials would somehow compromise national security when literally all you and your Vice President do is compromise national security. What's the difference now? I mean, it's out the window now.

C (16:11)

Yeah, I'm just in shock too about all these stories that are coming out about the amount, the number of times when investigators, FBI could have gone further into the Epstein files and pursued leads against co conspirators, other men, and then just didn't.

B (16:29)

I know.

C (16:29)

And we're talking about Jess Staley, who's ahead of Goldman. Sorry, Mor, not Morgan Stanley. Which bank was it? Oh, Bar Clays. Before he had to step down, he. And as we know, Leon Black from Apollo Management, the hedge funder, and now Harry Jarecki, the famous psychiatrist, like, who apparently was helping one of Epstein's girlfriends with her mental health. And then according to her, he used that opportunity to sexually abuse her.

B (17:03)

Of course these people are sick. I'm I there every day is a new level of disappointment with the Epstein files. And like, the more that the elites say things like, well, if you knew everything, it would collapse our government. I don't actually think is true. I think it would collapse the old system of elites and establishment. But there are people that are like 45 and younger who we didn't do any of this and we could very well continue to run the government probably better without all of the sort of like atrocities at the top going back to just the, the Clintons having to testify. And if the Trumps should, and I do believe that they should, but they should, they should be interviewing for competent, serious people. I think it was really unfortunate and a waste of the American taxpayers money and time that Lauren Boebert was asking questions of the former Secretary of State, right? Like, she has no idea what she's saying. Nancy Mace has no idea what she's saying.

C (17:58)

I mean, they were elected. They were elected.

B (18:00)

I understand that they're elected. I'm saying in terms of like, this is an actual serious thing. And when you look at like what the Democratic Oversight Committee is doing and the people who are leading that, like, Garcia is very serious about it. Lauren Underwood is serious about it. Summerlee is serious about when they're questioning people. And I'd like to see a similar level of professionalism and genuine like intelligent inquiry into these people. Because I feel like you got the Clintons to testify, but you didn't send your best question askers. I would have liked to have somebody who was maybe more, maybe one of the lawyers on the Republican side who's used to questioning a high profile witness than Lauren Boebert asking about like weird shit, you know, and Nancy there to say silly things. So to me, I thought that was a little bit of a waste of time. And I was disappointed because I think you could have got. Why didn't Ted Cruz? I know it's like a congressional thing, but let me just use Ted Cruz as an example. Ted Cruz is an, is, can be a very effective question asker. So like, I want someone like that in there who would have perhaps used the time more wisely and maybe given us some answers that the American people are looking for. This was very like circus kindergarten. And I, and I'm sad about that, too. I think it was a waste of time on both sides.

C (19:15)

I think you're right. You only get that opportunity once. Once. And why not Thomas Cotton?

B (19:20)

Why not Josh Hawley? Why not any of these people who are trained lawyers? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

C (19:26)

They're trained lawyers. But Congress doesn't always attract the best and the brightest. I think that is the. The top line.

B (19:37)

And Mike Lawler, I guess. I don't know. Give me somebody.

C (19:41)

I don't think Mike Lawler is going to be around for too much longer.

B (19:43)

No. I would have taken him over Lauren Boebert, though. I think I just. I was like, you know, we have

C (19:48)

to thank Boebert for her duty. She did stand up to Trump and actually help get the Epstein files. Transparency.

B (19:53)

And I think that is where she is effective. Right. Lauren Boebert is a woman who has experienced sexual violence and domestic violence and been told that you're not smart enough to do anything. And I think there are value. I. I totally get why people vote for her. And I've actually said this to the Democrats before. I was like, she's a relatable figure. She's somebody that. We all have a friend that's kind of like Lauren Boebert. But I don't necessarily want to be the one questioning Hillary Clinton. Like, it's not a matching of wits. Okay. Like, love the girl. Good for you. You're representing people that voted for you, and you sometimes really do do the right thing. But I don't think that was. I don't think that was the right choice for that moment.

C (20:28)

Oh, no. I mean, listen, it's Congress. It's House Oversight. It's the clown show. Maybe Senate is a little bit better. You know, it's just. It's. It's unfortunate. I think this entire hearing. I think this entire investigation is a sham. Because when Republicans don't. What do you mean?

B (20:47)

Like, do you think they're sabotaging it and doing it on purpose and sending people who are unserious? Because if they sent people who were serious, maybe there would actually be consequences. And in this way, they think they're placating the American public. Look what we did. But nothing really came of it.

C (21:01)

And they knew they're the only one. They're the only ones who showed up. If you're on the House Oversight Committee, you can go to these hearings, and that is your right as a member of the committee. But there's only a number of people on the House Oversight Committee. It is traditionally one of the easiest committees to get On.

B (21:15)

Yeah.

C (21:15)

And it's. A lot of freshmen end up on the House Oversight Committee. I believe AOC made her name there. It's a great place to make your name if you want to be a star on tv, because you get great clips. Oversight is all about interrogation, like you said. And if you're good at it and you make viral moments like you're. It's. It's a dream, you know, Carolyn Maloney, a former congresswoman from New York, she would show up in a firefighter outfit during her 911 hearings.

B (21:42)

Yeah.

C (21:42)

I mean, it's really about. It really. It really is about the theatrics getting on cable news. They don't have the kind of legislative power that, you know, energy, commerce.

B (21:54)

The kind of services. Yeah.

C (21:56)

Armed. The ones where, you know, a lot of lobbyists will probably pad your bank a little bit more because you have more heft. So to end up on House Oversight is sort of the place where the freshmen end up. And it's because I hate. This is the swamp. I'm just decoding the swamp.

B (22:11)

Yeah. This is the lion's den, the place you go to gladiator it out. Yeah.

C (22:15)

I'm just saying. So it is. And I'm actually just really disappointed that no one showed up from the Republican side to interview Les Wexner. Like, he is the key to all of this. And you guys didn't even show up to interview him. It just shows a lack of interest, lack of seriousness, really, to get down to the bottom of this. And the financial crimes are so important. He's also been accused of sexual assault by Virginia Duffrey and others. So it's like, why are you not going to sit down with him? He was Epstein's main backer. So, you know, that. That really. That bothered me as well.

B (22:49)

Again, me to see his name around college universities and on buildings. Like, there has to be some accountability here. You know, even if there's not going to be criminal account has to be more swift, social, civil accountability. Things like, you shouldn't be a college student and going into the Wexner Building. Like, you shouldn't even at Harvard. It's. It's like that. Like, it's. It's just. And I understand, like, maybe it should take time, but it just. It can't. There has to be some level of public shaming, of removal from society, of societal consequence for our society to hold. Like, there has to be a people reckoning if there won't be a criminal reckoning.

C (23:32)

I agree. I mean, that we deserve a fair and open Trial on camera. I mean, even Hillary said that this should be on camera. It absolutely should be. I didn't really care for her indignation as to, like, why should I have to testify? It's like, come on, you know, it's just like, what else are you doing?

B (23:47)

Yeah, get in there and just do it. Yeah.

C (23:50)

You know, would be happy to testify. The survivors.

B (23:52)

Yeah. Why not them?

C (23:55)

Yeah.

B (23:55)

This is why. I think they're blowing it on purpose, Tara, a little bit. And sometimes on your lives, I have a tendency to talk to you like I talked to you in our group chat, and then this is like, forever. But I'm just saying I think that they're blowing it a little bit on purpose. And I think, like, the American people are too smart for this because you could just interview the survivors. The Democratic Oversight Committee could hold a public on C Span, something, you know, primetime tv.

C (24:18)

They're going to do something in April in Palm beach or something like that. They're going to do, like, at the site of Epstein's house. They're going to have survivors speak. But it's different than actually having a hearing on the House floor because I think you're protected. Free speech is like local protection on the House floor. We have to remember it's Republicans that are controlling Oversight Committee. They are the ones who have subpoena power unless a number of Republicans vote with Democrats. And so that is what makes this so difficult. And we should just hope, though, that the Democrats in the next Congress, which I assume they will win, that they take this seriously.

B (24:56)

I'm keeping a list of things the Democrats need to do if they take power. I'm going to add this to it because the one thing I've been able to say to them that has worked is the American people don't want unity. Nobody wants to bring this country together. We want accountability before reconciliation. So what does accountability look like? It looks like impeachments. It looks like having the survivors testify on the House floor. It looks like taking control of the corruption and have, like, putting Epstein files. Got to turn to Epstein trials pretty soon. That's a pretty common thing people are saying online. Because I had the opportunity, I ran into Jess, who's one of the survivors.

C (25:34)

Yes, Michaels.

B (25:35)

Yes, Michaels, who's one of survivors. She's a wonderful, wonderful person. We were, like, passing in the halls of cnn and I admire her resilience and I am cautious of how much this country is asking of her and the other survivors to. To show up in these places where the needle isn't Moving fast enough where accountability is not coming fast enough. Now we're going to bring the girls and the women down to the site of Epstein's house to like, have a moment that we hope will go viral on television or on social media, to continue to keep attention on this place. But we are asking so much of these women that already gave so much. And it can't just be because it's helping a politician. It has to be because somebody's going to jail because something is happening. And I am concerned for the nonsense I see and how much we are asking of these women constantly and how little they're getting back.

C (26:30)

Agree with you. And it reminds me of when I was in Palm beach with Virginia Giuffre and we were, you know, knocking on doors and talking to people from her past and like, her physical reaction. Cause she lives in Australia. She hadn't been in Palm beach since her youth. She ran away from Epstein and Galen when she was, I think, 19 to Australia to hide from them. And when we went back to his house and we saw the plane and she remembered being physically, like brutally assaulted in a plane, she became ill. Like, I saw her body shake and it's like, it's very traumatizing to go back to that place. And essentially I've been saying this all along, that this government, this Congress, they have repeatedly re traumatized these women. And I am totally impressed with their strength that they've been able to plow forward and push and push and push. It's the sisterhood. It's. It's, you know, it is the strength that they built up together. But it is unfair. It's totally unfair.

B (27:31)

Let's not forget that their people have limits. And Virginia, for all her strength and everything that she gave to this mission, also had a limit. And I worry about this. I don't want to see anybody else reach that limit either. And so I feel very protective.

C (27:48)

Others have. Two other girls have killed. Killed themselves in connection to Epstein. And.

B (27:53)

And I just think we got to be aware of that too.

C (27:55)

You know, Virginia was out there for so long by herself for like a decade telling her story, constantly being told she was a liar, constantly being treated horribly. She was horrified when Pam Bondi put out her state, put out her depositions and said they were classified. It's just like a dog and pony. It was just a really, like, she saw the dog and pony show and she actually really hoped that Trump and Elon Musk would do the right thing. They. They messed. I think Elon Musk DM'd her and told her, I'll make sure the files released. And it's.

B (28:27)

It's constant disappointment too much from these girls. And Trump took the election from these girls in many ways, saying, oh, if you vote for me, and telling the American people who also believed this. There are other. There are the specific Epstein victims, of course, and then there's the broader class of women everywhere who have experienced sexual violence, who see, maybe these women will get some justice. But I didn't. But maybe they will. And then if they can, maybe other people will listen and maybe this will stop in some way. But it has to stop. Like, there has to be accountability or we're asking too much of them. And you know what bothers me so much about Virginia's story is when you talked about how you went to go see the chef and how she wrote in a book and everything. Like, used to make her a little sandwich or a little something to eat. Like, as a former chef myself, I know what that means. When. When we would have a rough night in the restaurant and maybe you yelled at the girls or whatever, you saw him get abused by the general manager on the floor. It was a rough night. You would put up what I called apology fries at the end of the night. Like, all the waitresses and the hostess to come, and they come and eat some French fries, and we would all sort of just like, have a shift drink and be like, wow, we got through it. And when I heard that he had Car Bluff. Yeah. When I heard that he had made her a little snack, I was like, you knew, you know, and like, how dare you not help now? Right? Like, we're hospitality. You made her a little snack. And how

C (29:51)

beyond.

B (29:53)

It makes me sad. Yeah.

C (29:54)

Yeah. No, you're like, yeah, he made her pizza. The details in which I, Like, I don't. The details in which she told her story to me through Broken and in her book. I mean, I just think everyone really needs to listen to them and to hear her voice. I'm sad that she didn't live to be able to do the audiobook for her book.

B (30:18)

I agree.

C (30:18)

Because, I mean, for Broken, which we spent a lot of time on, and I interviewed her extensively. You can hear her voice. But I do think, you know, it would have been nice, too, for her book to have that instead of an actor, you know? Yeah.

B (30:35)

I also think, like, I mean, an Olympic gold medal, Michael Phelps level of effort that she gave. And I. And this is where I say people have limits. She's one example of a person who gave to her Last breath, everything that she possibly could. And there's not any more that we could have expected from her or gotten from her. And I'm sad that she didn't get to see it, but I'm also. There's a little bit of peace in knowing that she's not seeing what's happening now and continuing to suffer under this sort of, like, ignorant clown show of like, oh, yeah, the Epstein files are out. No, they're not. They're totally redacted. No, they're not. We have the girls out on the Capitol. We have them at Palm Beach. Like, get the fuck out of here. For real? Like, yeah, you guys are. These are people. They're real people. And they're doing this stuff for you politicians because they believe that there will be justice, not because they want to be a part of your political rise. And I think we're getting a little too comfortable with the Epstein victims being accessible and helpful. And I want to just put a call to action out to anybody who is inviting them on their shows or news channels or politicians like you better be able to give back tenfold what they've given to you. And that needs to be in the front of your minds.

C (31:51)

Totally, totally. I agree with you on that. And the way that Virginia is being attacked right now by the manosphere is horrible. And the way that all the victims are, it's just, it's. It's really. It's hard. And that's why they've stayed quiet for so long. It's why all victims of sexual assault, particularly when it involves different class, men with power, they stay quiet. They don't want to be attacked. And. And you. And this is why. And they're trying to spin the narrative. They're trying to say it's a hoax.

B (32:26)

It's incredible. People.

C (32:29)

I'm like, all I say to all those people is, go listen to Detective or Carry's tapes. Go listen to them. Those are teenage girls from Palm Beach Gardens High School or the one next to. I'm not sure exactly which one, but it's a. It's a. It's a high school on the other side of Palm Beach Garden. It's on the other. It's near Palm Beach Gardens. It's a high school. A pyramid scheme of girls. 14, 200, 300. To bring their friends to Epstein to give massages. And they were raped. And that's not pedophile pedophilia to these people. This is not. You could have any woman in the world. Why 14 year olds, this new thing

B (33:11)

seemingly where people are like, well, pedophilia only really relates to the six months before puberty. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. We're not redefining or curating the definition of pedophilia. It is what it is. You know what you were doing. And I'm not going to, like, soften it or change it to the biological definition of pedophilia. There's a social definition that we are all subscribed to, and that is not. Is anybody under 18 or the intention of making somebody even over 18 look under 18. If you are sexualizing childlike features, mentality, body types and whatnot. I actually don't care if you're physically 18 and one day old. If the goal was to make them appear childlike, that's still pedophilia, even if that person is over 18. And that's what Jeffrey Epstein was going for. The absolute youngest, the absolute least experience, the absolute most vulnerable. That's what he was.

C (34:02)

He actually physically wanted them to look young. Like, he wanted them to look childlike. Because, like, even Virginia, when you looked at pictures of her, she was very thin. He had no curves. He didn't. He fed them very little. It was all about control. He didn't want breasts. He didn't want. I mean, Courtney Wilde, Jane Doe 1 showed up with braces on her teeth. You know, this is. That. That was the look, the aesthetic. You could say that he was going for. He was not.

B (34:27)

I am not going with this.

C (34:29)

He was not interested in women. He was not interested in women. So I don't know what you call it when somebody is not interested in women and they are not a boy. They're not a boy.

B (34:38)

Pedophiles. Yeah, yeah, you're a pedophile. If you're. If you are interested in childlike people, I don't care actually what their physical number ages. I think that that qualifies socially as pedophilia, and I'm not willing to soften it. The other thing I want to say is I wish that the news agencies would get better B roll when they're talking about Epstein, because I can't imagine how re. Traumatizing it is for everyone and to see his face everywhere, constantly. It's like constantly on social media, you can't scroll without seeing Epstein or Glenn Maxwell's face. Constantly on television, you can't scroll without seeing their face. And I understand that's how news typically does things, but maybe this is a special circumstance in which we could be showing pictures of the victims instead of the perpetrator because people are getting so used to seeing him that some of his style is even trending now where people are like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein used to wear a quarter zip. Like, I don't give a fuck what he used to wear. He used to rape kids. Like, I think maybe there's like, some editorial decision people could be making that when we're talking about him, we're showing victims as opposed to him on yachts and boats and private planes and whatever. It's like, I think it for. Especially for Gen Z and people who were not alive, alive during this time to have lived it in any way and have like, recollection, recollection of how, you know, just exploited the millennial generation was. And even parts of younger Gen X, it's like, no, it actually wasn't cool. It's super creepy. And I think the people who deserve to see their face out there more are maybe the victims to remind people that this man was a major criminal. And all we ever see him on is in his boat at interlocking, smiling, looking, happy looking.

C (36:10)

It's the wealth porn. It's the wealth porn. And I have always said this was the problem. Like when I did the Broken podcasts with. With Julie K. Brown and Adam Davidson and Adam McKay, when we spoke, I said, I only want to do this through the eyes of the victims. And we actually Xed out. We axed out Jeffrey's face.

B (36:31)

Good.

C (36:32)

On. On the COVID if you ever go to Broken Jeffrey Epstein, you don't see his face. There's an X over it. Because we wanted to make sure it wasn't about him.

B (36:38)

Right.

C (36:39)

And I literally start the show being like, I don't care about Jeffrey Epstein. Like, I care about the women whose lives you ruined. Yeah, because, like, for so long, these stories are always about the fascination with these men, these catch me if you can characters. It's like, oh, because he had a jet and it was a Lolita Express, and he was followed around by beautiful women and this and that. And it's like you get lost in that. You get lost in the truth of this horror. And. And that was like, a really big deal to me. And everyone on my team was in alignment on that. So, yeah, well done. And I actually really think that Julie's reporting at the Miami Herald. Like, what brought it to that next level was the video work she did with Emily Michaud, who was the producer, because she was the one who got the girls to talk on the record. And that was a really big deal because people knew about the Epstein story and the injustice. It had been written about in the Palm Beach Post and other places. Not to the extent that, like, people were. They were up in arms against Barry Krisher, who was the state attorney at the time, for letting Epstein and go on such light charges. It was written about in Palm beach just wasn't a national story until Julie really laid it all out. But critically, I think having those women on the record having their faces, which took a lot of trust building, that was what changed the story. It brought the humanity to it.

B (37:59)

I'm also very interested, and this is what we're talking about tomorrow. I know there are a lot of people, like you said, they get into the wealth, porn. They get into the, like the, you know, sort of looking at the train wreck of the sex crimes. And they think that that's the limit of it. Jeffrey Epstein's empire has been inherited by people who are running our government and world politics today. Maybe not directly the way you think of, like, somebody dies and you inherit your grandpa's car, but pretty, pretty close to it. There are people out there running parts of Jeffrey Epstein's ideology and his business. People like Jared Kushner who seem to have inherited some of the Middle east policy and some of the ideas there. People like Steve Bannon who are still informing the Republicans. Cryptocurrency, the attack on trans people all comes back to Jeffrey Epstein and much of the way that he was moving and influencing people to the point that this idea that trans people aren't people comes from Jeffrey Epstein, as it was a trans woman who was one of the first people to accuse him of rape. And his idea being trans people are fetishes, not people. So if they are seeking civil rights, I can't have that because they are fetishes.

C (39:04)

They are not, maybe girls, they are fetishes. But not everyone thinks in the world of fetish.

B (39:10)

But he did, and he had the power to try and tamp down. And to this day, it continues. This idea to marginalize trans people. You notice they never talk about trans men. It's always trans men that these people go after. The Republicans go after and legislation goes after. And it's because they are folks that he wanted to fetishize and other people want to fetishize and not see as real. So if it's like how, you know, back in the day, people couldn't imagine that black folks wouldn't be slaves because then they're people. And it's like, yeah, they're fucking people. They were always people. Same thing with the way they're dealing with trans people, same way with the way they're dealing with young women. Oh, these people want autonomy, they want justice, they want equal place in society. As me, a wealthy man, I can't have that. I'm going to tamp it down every chance I get. So it's like the more I learn about his influence to this day on the Heritage foundation, on Steve Bannon, on the right wing, on the manosphere, on cryptocurrency, on geopolitics, on Russia, I'm like, it's still happening. He didn't die that long ago. His shit is still going on. Maybe not the sex crimes in exactly the same way, but the ideology and the world that he seek to create. This new right wing is not the Newt Gingrich, Ted Cruz right wing of the Tea Party. This is the MAGA Trumpism, Epstein, MAGA Party, Republican Party.

C (40:29)

Yeah, I mean, he definitely seeded a lot of ideas with very influential people. And I think the com.

B (40:35)

He.

C (40:36)

He personally enjoyed the conversations with people of power. And when you have that kind of access and influence to those people, you are going to influence the national conversation. You are going to influence the way that institutions carry out various practices. Financial, academia, science, just even media. I mean, he had a lot of friends in the media as well. He constantly was talking to reporters all of the time.

B (41:01)

I mean, this is what we're living with now. And it's, you know, they're like, oh, well, they were all Democrats back then. I'm like, yeah, they were all Democrats back then. And then, why did they become Republicans? They created a new Republican Party, a new Republican power structure that centered Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein's ideals, Steve Bannon, Cambridge Analytica, all that, and Elon Musk, the people who were involved in the situation that the Democrats did not look at as equal, intelligent or power authorities. And over here, well, we'll just create a whole new structure. It's not that, like, they. They were all Democrats and now they're all Republicans. Why are they Republicans? And is this truly the Republican Party of Mitt Romney and Ted Cruz and Newt Gingrich and George Bush, or is it a completely different Republican Party? It is. It's maga, which was built much in part by Jeffrey Epstein's ideology, carried out by his friends who happen to enjoy his island in his plane. RFK Jr. They're all connected.

C (41:55)

It is really.

B (41:55)

I'm getting killed. Sarah. Someday, someday they're going to be like, that kid's going to keep moving, Bea. I know they're Going to be like, never stop moving. God. Like, why are you telling people these things? It's the dyslexia, man. You see big picture and then you're like, it all makes sense.

C (42:13)

Oh, I'm. No.

B (42:15)

Also, I don't think he was a Mossad agent. I don't think that Monica Lewinsky was a Mossad agent either, which is the new thing. I think Mossad is its own thing. And I think Jeffrey Epstein was in places of power. I think he was willing to play games with Russia, willing to play games with Israel, willing to play games with whoever was going to give him power access and let him do what he wanted. So I doubt that the Mossad took time out to, like, take Jeffrey Epstein away and personally train him as a spy so much as he was a useful asset to many different power players.

C (42:46)

Agreed. He was a hyper fixer.

B (42:48)

Saying this, yeah, for so many people, but I'm not.

C (42:51)

He was a triple, quadruple agent. He passed on tips to various. He passed on tips to various powerful people, including Prince Andrew, who then sold them all. He. And he also asked for information from Prince Andrew. He passed them on to, you know, intelligence agencies, as you could see from his lawyers asking the CIA and NSA if they could send a proof of affiliation. He went and met with Bill Burns when he was the Deputy Secretaries of State. And then, you know, this is like,

B (43:23)

RO was his own country. He was his own power structure. He was his own universe. He. He wasn't loyal to Israel or loyal to Russia or loyal to America. He was loyal to himself and whatever that next fix was for him.

C (43:38)

Right. Incredible.

B (43:41)

Now that we've bumped everybody out and got them all worked up. Goodbye.

C (43:45)

Bye. By the way, thanks, everybody for joining the show. What a great number. Great. What a great audience. Thank you for all being so engaged. We love you. Of course, if you're watching this hit, subscribe, like, upgrade, whatever, keep us in business. We appreciate you all. And yeah, can't do it without you. And we'll keep on it. And V has a new article coming out about Steve Bannon. Very critical link tomorrow on, is it under the desk or on V?

B (44:14)

On under the Desk News. And we're, we. We're lucky that we got, we got a little. We had a dust bunny who has contributed to keeping the substack free for right now. So tomorrow's article you will still be able to read free, but if you can subscribe to the channel, someday that money will run out of the. The folks that are helping keep the substack free. So if you can subscribe, do. But if not, tomorrow's article about Steve Bannon will be free. And I think it's a really important thing to get you just thinking bigger picture and outside what the mainstream continues to feed to us. I think what you're doing, Tara, is so brave and incredible and, you know, we're kind of like working parallel with our friends in the chat.

C (44:53)

No one can do this all alone.

B (44:54)

Yeah.

C (44:55)

By the way, there are so many files. There's so many. This story is cannot be owned by one journalist. And that's why I love that it came at this time. I actually think it was so fortuitous because like 2019, there was no independent world. There was no J mail, there was no AI. This happened exactly when it was supposed to happen. And it makes me hopeful. I don't think we could have handled this bulk of information except at this time. And I think we'll get the rest of the files. And you know, it's amazing. So I'm like incredibly proud of the independent universe and everyone here who supports reporters like us because reporting isn't cheap, it takes a lot of time. If you want to check out my story too, it's on Melania, Antoine Verglass, this photographer and the connection to Jeffrey Epstein. I think if you click through the links, you'll see the emails and you will be sufficiently creeped and that should, you know, I. Oh yeah, I know.

B (45:53)

Big ick.

C (45:54)

And no one did anything wrong.

B (45:55)

Yeah.

C (45:56)

Right.

B (45:57)

And that's it. Okay, thanks for coming to our show. Bye.

C (46:00)

Bye.

D (46:07)

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