B (3:17)

Yes, he has. I mean, you could literally, literally go back to his childhood. And I mean, he operated without any parameters, without any discipline you knew could get away with bad behavior. So that was set really from the age of a toddler. And then at school, he mixed with the jet set, the Niarchos family, people like that. He never. It was never sort of shown that he wasn't any good. He. His ego was stroked. So when he was in the Navy, he was given prizes for being best pilot when he wasn't. And I suppose, you know, you could then say that the problems start when he gets married to. To Sarah Ferguson in 1986, because in some ways, she brings out all the worst characteristics of him. She also is greedy, has no moral boundaries, and that the sort of Bonnie and Clyde pair begin from there. And then I suppose the next point is he comes out of the discipline of the Navy in 2001 and basically is involved with the trade envoy job. He's met Epstein several years before, but this gives him an opportunity basically to go into the sweetie shop. And instead of going out and promoting British trade, he goes and uses all these contacts to make money for himself. But you could find all sorts of places where it all begins. But yeah, 2001, I would say is. Is where we have people complaining about his operations, the fact that he's doing business on his own behalf, and all these stories that we're getting now go right back for 25 years.

A (4:48)

So he mastered the art of grift since he was a child. He played on his privilege for so long.

B (4:54)

Absolutely. And the protection of the Queen, I think that was always the big thing that he had. Could just run to Mummy whenever there was a problem and she would. She would basically make life difficult, whoever complained. And this was even true in the Navy when he had bad reports. The. The. What happened was people often lost their jobs as a result of this. I mean, this is why it's not just Andrew's fault. There's a whole network ecosystem he operated in which protected him. And I think that's what's so shocking about the Epstein story that there were police protection officers there, there were his valet ecuaries, there were civil servants, diplomats, politicians, all of them were involved in covering up Andrew's malfeasance.

A (5:36)

Yeah, it's interesting because now you have the Metropolitan Police, they're being asked what they saw or heard during their period of service of Andrew and all of these years speaking up would have been a problem for them, it sounds like.

B (5:49)

Yes, I mean the threats were put on them that if they, they, they reported anything. The big cover up by Peter Loughborough, now the Earl of Roslyn and Lord and the private secretary to the King and he basically shut down all these stories. But I mean I saw even in December policemen were getting letters saying reminding them of their obligations of confidentiality and not to speak out. That was when Paul Page began to talk about prostitutes being brought into Buckingham palace without anyone knowing who they were. So you know, in some ways they're saying one thing in public, but actually they're doing something very different and private.

A (6:24)

It's horrible. It's really, really terrible. Especially when you think about the fact that all of these people are being funded by the British taxpayers, every last one of them from the protection to the monarchy.

B (6:36)

Yes, yes. And I mean, yeah, exactly. You know, these, they were traveling five star staying in five star hotels, you know, huge salaries. And you've got to remember we were also paying for all Andrew's expenses including the massages with happy endings.

A (6:50)

And so it's fair to think that the Queen knew all along.

B (6:54)

Yes, the Queen did know. I mean people did go and complain to her. I've got that from for example, heads of the Foreign Office, MI6 officers and they were sent away with a fee in their ear. And you know, there's plenty of, of examples of, of legal threats against news organizations for trying to report things accurately. We saw ABC television's Amy Robach who had that interview with Virginia Gifra, wanted to run the program. Basically, Alice used a bit of blackmail, said if you do this, we won't give you access to the royals in future. So the Queen knew and I'm afraid King Charles also knew. And that's puts him in a difficult position now because he's claiming that the law must take its course. Well, if the course, the law reveals that he's known about this and didn't report any of it and protected and aided this man, then he is in big trouble himself.

A (7:45)

What does your reporting say? What do you think Charles knew?

B (7:48)

I think Charles knew everything. I Mean, he couldn't have not known it. I mean, it was in the newspapers for 15 years, all these stories about Andrew shoehorning in Jonathan or David Rowland into meetings and doing his own business, taking commissions in Kazakhstan, et cetera. So it's extraordinary nothing was done then. Nothing was done. In 2010 when Sarah was caught selling access to Andrew for £500,000, nothing was done. The Selman Turk case in 2022, when they couldn't explain the York family £1.3 million put in their bank accounts. Nothing happened. When my book came out six months ago, which delineated all this behavior, no one wanted to go there, neither the police, palace or the government.

A (8:32)

Yeah. Will he have to testify?

B (8:34)

I don't think Andrew will go and testify in the Senate. He will be required, if there's a parliamentary investigation into him, which I hope there will be, to testify to Parliament. He clearly has had. He's been questioned by the police. And I think what would be interesting is to know if there's any further questioning and who else is being questioned. I mean, there's private secretaries, the people like David Stern, who did a lot of the work with him. And I think the danger is that this is going to be kicked into the long grass until people kind of forget about it, rather than actually really focusing on bringing this man to justice.

A (9:13)

What about Charles? Do you think Charles will be called in for questioning? I mean, has the King ever been called in for questioning like this before?

B (9:20)

Well, the convention is the King can't really be called in for questioning, particularly since it's his courts, his, his police service, etc. But that's only a convention, so that could change. I think the King isn't going to want to go in and talk because clearly Andrew can say, well, Charles knew all about these things. Why am I being the patsy here? I think if anyone is called to, to give evidence, it will be the private secretary of Charles, either Sir Edward Young or Sir Clive Alderton.

A (9:51)

That's incredible. So you could see Andrew throwing his brother under the bus.

B (9:55)

Yes, I think they're all in the business of throwing each other under the bus. I think Fergie would, Would, would incriminate Andrew if it saved her. The palace at the moment are basically throwing the two daughters under the bus to keep the firewalls back from Charles and get everything focused on the York family. So I think this is pretty much a family at war. There's no love lost between Charles and Andrew and there seem to be now divisions bringing, breaking up in the whole Family. I mean, the York family are being ostracized by William and Catherine and others and Beatrice Sorry. And Harry and Meghan and Zara Phillips are kind of having to choose sides here.

A (10:37)

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B (11:28)

I don't think the monarchy will fall, though I think it will fall if they don't do something. And I think particularly if it's found that Andrew's been protected by Charles and nothing happens. I think also if Andrew does do a runner somewhere and that's aided and abetted by the royal family, that's not going to go down well. But at the moment, actually this could be an opportunity for them to modernize the family, create a bit more transparency, reform of their finances, the way that they handle their records management. For example, we don't know what their records are. Often they just destroy them. There's no inventory at the royal archives, so there are lots of things they could do. But I think the most important is parliamentary scrutiny of the royals. So there can be debates about them and their behavior. They become very easy, soft target for intelligence agencies who can penetrate them, knowing that there's going to be absolutely no oversight into their activities whatsoever.

A (12:27)

Could you see a scenario in which King Charles would have to abdicate the throne over this and pass it on to William and Kate early?

B (12:34)

Well, that's what people are suggesting, but I think the feeling is that Charles should be the punch bag. He should. She should kind of be the lightning conductor for the scandal. And on his watch they should try and clear out, clear it up so that when Williams comes to the throne it will be a clean slate. Now, I don't know if Charles is going to have time to do that or even has the necessary willingness to do that. So that's the big question. But I think, as he say, as I say, if he's complicit in perverting the course of justice, then I think there will be a cry for him to go and they may use the excuse of his health to do that.

A (13:12)

Right. He is unwell. So both Hillary and Bill Clinton were called into the House Oversight Committee to testify about the Epstein files. As we know, when Virginia Giuffre's attorneys tried to. They subpoenaed Andrew and they wanted him to come to the US to be deposed. He settled and paid her billions of dollars in pounds, not billions, excuse me, millions of dollars, over £10 million. Is there any chance that he would cross the pond and be called in to testify before the House Oversight Committee? Would he actually comply? Or is this some sort of diplomatic relationship that they would at all costs avoid doing this to Andrew? I mean, you can't pay your way out of this one. It's a, it's Congress. It's a subpoena.

B (14:07)

Sure. Well, people have, you know, tried to persuade him to go and said he should go, but I don't think he will. All he would do is incriminate himself. I think he's probably scared of incriminating others too. He's spent the last 15 years avoiding any talking to anyone. I mean, there was a mutual legal assistance treaty that the Americans sent. The victim's lawyers have requested and talked to them. So I think that's very unlikely. I think what's really interesting, and you may be able to shed light on this is the FBI, I know, passed a file on his activities to the Metropolitan Police four years ago and nothing was done. And I'm now told that the British authorities are asking for help from the Americans more and the Americans are refusing to give it, which I can't quite see why they would do that. So there seems to be some sort of tension between Anglo American tension at the moment about how they deal with Andrew.

A (15:03)

Do you know why the Americans are refusing to give information? Or. I mean, it makes sense because we're not actually holding anyone to account. So why would we share information? Not that I think that is the right thing to do in any way, but they don't, like, we don't seem to be taking this seriously at all in the U.S. yes.

B (15:21)

Well, I mean, you know, people are being subpoenaed and you know, clearly people are resigning in the States and, and their reputations have been tarnished by by their association. I, I think it may come.

A (15:31)

Not in public life, like not. Not in public life. No one who's a politician has had to resign, or no one who's a taxpayer funded, you know, servant, you could say civil servant. None of them have had to resign. But you have, you know, Mandelson was arrested, had to resign. You had the. Who was the other one, the Chief of staff to care Starmer. And obviously Prince Andrew has lost his title, but we haven't had anything like that. People from private companies have had to resign or were kicked up to the, the board with very handsome, you know, settlement packages.

B (16:09)

Yeah, well, I mean, it is encouraging that at least our, we, I hope our law enforcement is independent of the executive and they are doing it without fear and favor. You know, sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case in the States. But one can only hope that perhaps, you know, things will change in the States. Department of justice will actually do its job and these people will be held to account. But, I mean, we're hoping that the papers around the appointment of Andrew Mandelson will be released. That was the problem with Morgan Sweeney, that I think he had pushed for an appointment against the wishes of, for example, the intelligence services. And I think people are keen to see why that, you know, how that was allowed to happen. And I think this is why also that the scandal is turning into a national security scandal here in Britain, because the sense is that Andrew was working alongside Russian criminal gangs who were themselves linked to Russian intelligence, quite apart from all the Chinese spies in his entourage. So I think this story is going to get bigger before it finishes.

A (17:14)

I agree, and I'm just. I don't know if you feel this way, but are the British people demanding that your Epstein files be released? Because I'm sure there are files in the intelligence services about Epstein in the uk.

B (17:31)

Yes, I'm sure there are files. I mean, certainly Andrew and Sarah were being watched because of their association with certain characters who must have been within Epstein's ambit. I think the problem here is our foreign intelligence service, according to the CIA, that never releases files. That's. That's just the way it is. Our domestic intelligence, MI5, do release them, but not for many years after the. The case. So I think it would, it would take special circumstances and of course there always exemptions that can be deployed, whether it's national security or personal data or relations with another country. So the danger is that even if they were to open stuff, we wouldn't actually get anything particularly sensitive.

A (18:17)

And it would come so late. I mean, and obviously we've been calling for the Epstein files since 2019, and it's 2026 right now, and we only have half of them. I often think that the two and a half million files that we haven't seen are all intelligence related files. Right. And I wonder if there's more information about Andrew in those intelligence files that they are holding back because of national security, but it's really just a handshake between the US and the UK right now. And that's why they're holding it back.

B (18:46)

Yes. No, I think that could be a reason. I've certainly had occasions on previous books where material in American archives that they seemed very willing to. To give to me. For example, FBI files on Lord Mountbatten. I think the British then put pressure on the Americans and actually not only were they kept closed, but they actually destroyed them. So these were files going back to 1943, which were destroyed in 2019 after I asked for them. So that is the danger. And we are much more secretive than the American.

A (19:17)

He tells a little bit about these files and what you believe were in them.

B (19:20)

Well, I mean, the file that I found in the FBI papers, one file was a woman who went to the FBI in 1943 when Mountbatten was appointed Supreme Allied Commander, Southeast Asia, working very closely with the Americans, and said, look, I know this man. I'm Society of the Society, sort of gossip columnist, and this man basically is a pedophile. And the FBI then began to create other files on this activity by Mountbatten. And those were the files I wanted to see. So I saw one, got the personal numbers, got in touch with the FBI, and then they said, well, these, I'm afraid, have just been destroyed. And I said, that's odd. You kept this other one. When did you destroy them? And they very honestly said, after you asked for them.

A (20:09)

That's insanity.

B (20:10)

Yeah, well, it seems criminal. It's very frustrating, too. But we have this problem. Files that were open are now closed. We're going backwards in terms of freedom, information, and it's all about controlling the narrative. And that's what Trump and his government are trying to do. It's what the royal family try and do in this country.

A (20:31)

The great modern democracies are falling before our very eyes because of sex crimes.

B (20:37)

Yes.

A (20:38)

And then it kind of reminds you that it was all an illusion to begin with, frankly. Right.

B (20:44)

Well, I think we have a bit more scrutiny. So these things now come out. I mean, the royals have always behaved badly, but no one knew about it in the past, and I think that's. That's the change. But, yes, you know, and it's. The stables need to be cleaned out in public life, I mean, on both sides of Atlantic.

A (21:03)

So Prince Andrew was arrested, and in the us, being arrested is different than being arrested in the uk. Can you kind of explain for our audience the difference between being arrested in the UK and being arrested in the US and why they haven't advanced the case against Andrew yet?

B (21:21)

Yes, I mean, the arrest was very interesting because all they did was they wanted to question him. Now, that could have been done by just asking him to come into the police station, but I think the concern was that he was going to make a runner, rather like Mandelson, and therefore they swooped in to try and catch him unexpectedly one morning. And you're right. You know, normally you would expect with the arrest, there were charges would follow, but this is really just basically taking some custody, questioning them, then releasing them. Now, they could have had various options. They could have charged him at that point because they felt they had enough evidence. They could have put him out on bail, thinking that he was clearly suspect to opinion that basically needed to be. Needed to have some control over him in case he did run away. They could have confiscated his passport. Now, they did none of those things. They just seemed to have literally let him go and said, will be a touch.

A (22:23)

So what happens next?

B (22:26)

Well, I think there are all sorts of things that could happen next. One is that the. That he's charged. It could be that it's going to take another year of investigations before anything happens. It could be that the Crown Prosecution Service says actually that we don't have enough evidence to bring charges. It could be that he's charged with sexual trafficking. I mean, he could also be charged with treason. He gave away classified information. So I think, you know, there are lots and lots of different ways it can go. We could also have charges leveled against other people. I mean, David Stern, who was working with him, Amanda Thirsk as private secretary. So, you know, it's uncharted waters, this. And he already could flee. I mean, he's presumably not very keen to go to the Middle east at the moment, but that option may return. So it's. It's very difficult to prophesize what's going to happen.

A (23:19)

Do you have. Are your sources telling you anything right now about what law enforcement is thinking?

B (23:23)

No. I mean, law enforcement are being very, very careful. I mean, I've talked to people who have investigated these sort of crimes and what might happen with. In the circumstances. But, you know, he is a very special particular character. So they may not play things as they would with. With anyone else.

A (23:43)

I loved that picture of him where he's just like, coming out of his questioning.

B (23:49)

Yeah, that's one. I wish I could get it for the paperback. Picture for a paperback.

A (23:55)

It was incredible. It said everything. I mean, was it that bad for him? Do you think it was that horrifying?

B (24:00)

Yeah, I think it was. I think it was the moment of realization that this was actually pretty serious and he was in deep trouble. I think up till now, he's not really accepted that he. There's any problem. I think he's felt that he wouldn't be charged, he wouldn't be convicted. He would still be protected. You know, and if we think about it, okay, he's has his reputation trash, but he's only had to move to a slightly smaller house and he can no longer call himself Prince Andrew. But suddenly the idea that he might spend the rest of his life behind bars, which is a possibility, I think really hit him. And I think the fact that it was reasonably unexpected. He had been tipped off the night before because you need permission to go on to the Sanjango estate. So he was prepared. Prepared. He normally gets up. He normally gets up late, slouches around in his dressing gown, watching tv. He was up, dressed, shaved and ready to go. But I don't think he expected that it would be as serious as it seems to be.

A (24:56)

And what's the latest on Lord Mandelson, the former UK Ambassador to the US One of the architects of the Labor Party? I mean, Keir Starmer, is he okay? Because clearly the dark prince, Lord Mandelson, was a huge part of his, you know, victory. And. And what's going on? And from the political angle.

B (25:17)

Yes. Well, I think, you know, Starmer is very. The Starmer is. Is very vulnerable. I think the thing is no one wants to take on his job at the moment. So he's kind of been left there hanging. And that's a little bit, I think, what's happening with Charles as well. William doesn't want to step up into this mess and get compromised by it. So I think he's saying, look, you. You. You were part of. You created this mess to his father. You sort it out, and I'll come in when it's all cleared up. So we. We're seeing a parallel there. Mandelson, I just don't know. I mean, if they charge Mandelson, they're going to have to charge Andrew because they're very, very similar crimes.

A (25:52)

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time, Andrew. Always a pleasure to have you on. So impressed with your reporting. You were ahead of this for so long. You're as you know, Andrew is a best selling author of entitled About Andrew, multiple books he's written in the past. He is his unofficial autobiographer. But his books are gripping and actually really hard to get in the US which should tell you something. But go on Amazon, you can still find them there. You can find more information about his latest book on Andrew in the description of this show. There will be a link to go straight to Amazon and purchase it for yourself. You will not want to put it down. So thanks again Andrew for coming on the show.

B (26:39)

Thanks. Pleasure.

A (26:40)

That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri Show. Thank you so much for tuning in. I want to thank my producer Dan Schiffmacher, Abby Baker, who does my booking, social media and producing, Adam Stewart on the graphics and Dan Rosen, my manager. See you again soon. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.