Greg Kelly (3:30)

Let's find out what is this all about. And she's also been subpoenaed by the Oversight Committee. I think this is great. I do have a feeling that she has been. She just might be a victim. She just might be. There was a rush to judgment. There was a lot of chaos there for a while. All right, granted, she hung out with Jeffrey Epstein, and I know that's apparently not good.

Tara Palmeri (3:55)

Charlie Kirk saying she had courage. Maybe she wants immunity, maybe she wants some sort of protection, I don't know. But it's definitely something that is worthy.

Annie Farmer (4:04)

Of praise and worthy of our encouragement.

Tara Palmeri (4:08)

That the Trump campaign promised if they were elected, there would be justice. And now they're about to rip away the tiniest shred that the survivors have. The top of the pyramid scheme. The one person, Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, she was a critical player, but she's just the beginning. If they actually care to prosecute this.

Annie Farmer (4:31)

This case.

Tara Palmeri (4:34)

And they think they can get away with it, clearly they're laying the groundwork for it to happen. But this story didn't start last week or the week before that when Pam Bondi said case closed, there were no third parties, no Johns, nothing to see here. This is a long story of neglect, betrayal and abuse of young girls, starting with Epstein and then continuing with the Justice Department that looked the other way. It's a perfect example, actually, one of the worst examples of a two tier justice system. One for the rich and powerful and another for the poor and vulnerable, who they assume everyone will forget anyway, Right? It'll all just go away, sweep it under the rug. Eventually people will forget. But let's go back 20 years ago to 1996. The story of Annie, who you're going to hear about in this episode, and her sister Maria, who I also speak to. They were both assaulted by Epstein and Glenn Maxwell. And when Maria made a desperate call to the FBI that they had both been molested, there was no follow up, there was no investigation. At the time, Maria was working for Epstein. She was managing the door at his Manhattan townhouse, the largest in New York City. She was a young artist curating work for him. And her sister Annie was 16 years old. She had Big dreams of going to college. They had a single mom and Galen Maxwell and. And Jeffrey Epstein. They claimed to be a couple that couldn't have children, and they wanted to sponsor young, promising girls and help them along their way. And so they found Annie and they told her she was special and they could fulfill her dreams, and they wanted to help her. And so they lured her out to the Zoro Ranch out in New Mexico. The ranch that, get this, Jeffrey Epstein thought could be a place for him to breed children, to spread the world with his own sick DNA. Well, after Galen Maxwell threatened Maria's life, after she found out that Maria called the FBI. Maria lived in fear after that. So did her sister. There was no one there to protect her, no law enforcement, no one. But they knew that Maxwell and Epstein were very powerful and they knew about their threats, that they dared to speak up. So for years, they were quiet. They kept to themselves. They tried to tell a journalist, but they never were able to publish because of Epstein's power. Then again, both Maria and Annie decided to help the Palm beach police when there was another investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. This was after parent after parent after parent went to the police saying that their daughters in the nearby high school to Palm beach, the other side of the intracoastal, the poor side, were being molested by a man in his Palm beach mansion. Well, turns out that the local law enforcement, the police, cared, but the people above them, the district attorney, not so much literally said, there are no victims here. Horrendous. So then again, Annie and Maria tried to help, tried to bring justice, but nothing, just a slap on the wrist for Epstein. He was named a sex offender, spent a year and a half in a county jail for a state crime, even though with sex trafficking across. Across states, it was a federal crime. He got to be on work release with just an ankle bracelet. He was charged with procuring a child for prostitution. As if a child could be a prostitute. You would think, wow, this is exhausting, right? How many times do I have to tell my story? How many times do I have to help prosecutors and FBI and police officers that are supposed to be looking out for me tell my story over and over and over again and not see any results, not see justice, instead be told I was a child prostitute. But no, Annie spoke up again. In 2021, she took the stand and bravely told the story of how she was lured to that Zorro ranch, how when she got there, she was sexually abused by Maxwell and then Epstein. You could see her face, the courtroom painting, the Tears. It was real. She had to relive it every single time. And I think everyone forgets that. So for Annie, she said she did it for the others because it's how painful it was for her to have to relive that moment. She did it for her survivor sisters. That's why this network is such an important thing. But it's why she told me the other day, it makes her stomach turn at the same time to hear that Galen Maxwell, who lured her in, who in many ways, to Maria and Annie and so many others, they hate her even more because she, she, she tricked them by being a woman, by telling them that it was safe to go to a man's house, told their mother it was safe, and then that's what really, really hurts for them. And to hear that she's being taken seriously after all this time, it's heartbreaking. The fact that President Trump could call a person, a grown woman who drove around looking for teens to be assaulted by her 50 year old boyfriend every single day, according to Maria, a, a person with a good heart is disturbing. I mean, just listen to Maria here. She didn't call them women, she called them new biles. Wow. And so she would scream, I've got.

Child (10:42)

To go get the new vials.

Tara Palmeri (10:44)

Wow. And her face looks so vicious. I was so terrified. And yeah, so there was always this tension because she was just predating people, humans, but mostly teen girls. She was posh, she went to Oxford, she was friends with Prince Andrew, she was friends with Bill Clinton. She wore Ralph Lauren, she pretended to be a modeling recruiter. And she flaunted her relationship with the founder of Victoria's Secrets, Les Wexner. So it seemed believable. And let's not forget that Les Wexner was a big source of Epstein's money. She didn't look like a pedophile. Now, Epstein was another story you really have to hear, Annie and, and why this feels like a particular type of betrayal. Just to really understand why a pardon for someone like Glenn Maxwell would be a stab in the heart to the nearly thousand survivors of Jeffrey Epstein. Take a listen here. Annie, thank you for coming on the show. With every development that we see coming out of the government, I keep thinking about the victims, the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and how their internalizing this and what they see. I mean, when you heard that the, the deputy attorney general was interested in talking to Galan Maxwell, what were you thinking? I mean, you testified in the trial against her, you were one of the few survivors that, that, that took the.

Annie Farmer (12:25)

Stand yeah, my stomach immediately dropped. It felt very ominous, I guess, that they were at this place that they were considering speaking with someone who, you know, had been accused of perjury, was never willing to admit her role in these crimes. And so it feels very confusing about why they would be bringing her to.

Tara Palmeri (12:51)

The table at this time, because, after all, I mean, don't the survivors have all of the evidence that they need?

Annie Farmer (13:00)

Yeah, I'm not sure what angle this is that they are, you know, imagining that someone who, you know, we know to be guilty in this case, that has been. They put so much energy and effort into prosecuting her. And, you know, if you read the DOJ statements about the crimes that she's guilty of, it's not just, you know, organizing or luring. I mean, she's a participant in the abuse and was, you know, a very prominent part of Epstein's crimes. And so, you know, I think for those of us who were harmed by her, it is really hard to understand what could be gained from bringing someone like this to the table, like giving her a platform, making, you know, some of these very fringe people who've said that she should be pardoned, you know, giving them heir to their kind of campaigns. It feels very frustrating as someone that was a part of the case against.

Tara Palmeri (14:00)

Her, and they're saying in the name of feminism, as if she's being targeted because she's a woman. But I don't think people quite understand that when women were abused, girls. Excuse me, when girls were abused by Jeffrey Epstein, Galen was often right next to Jeffrey, abusing them physically as well. Sexually molesting them.

Annie Farmer (14:22)

Yeah, I think that goes back to just some, you know, misunderstandings about the way that child sexual abuse happens and the fact that actually it's that women. It's not that this never happens, that women participate as perpetrators or participate as enticing, grooming, and facilitating abuse. I mean, this is something that we know happens. And, of course, women should be held accountable for those crimes.

Tara Palmeri (14:49)

But I do remember Maria saying like that in a lot of ways, she feels more anger towards Ghislaine than she does towards Epstein, even though Epstein was a man who was sexually abusing, because it was. He could have never done it without Galen. Galen traded on the fact that she was a woman with status. She targeted these girls, made them feel special, used her status, her accent, her posh, her Rolodex, and she. And she made you feel special, and she made you feel safe, and. And I think a lot of people forget that.

Annie Farmer (15:28)

Yeah, it's. It's it is. I think an important thing to remember is that she was a huge part of connecting Epstein to the people he was able to access. Her presence alone as a woman, I think helped people feel safe. And of course, yeah, a middle aged man approaching young women would be seen very differently for massages. But if someone who seems well educated, well spoken, is interested and curious, you know, is talking with a young girl about this, it's received completely differently. And I know in my case, I felt after, you know, my first encounter with Epstein, I was certainly on edge because of some of the ways he had interacted with me. But then when I learned I'd been invited to the ranch and, and that Ghislaine was gonna be there, I agreed to go because I thought, well, nothing could happen because this is his partner and she would, you know, as a woman, like, I will be safe because of her presence. And I think that that was the case for many people involved. So she, yeah, certainly very culpable. And I don't think there is anything to be gained by, by giving her a platform. And this information, as you said, could be the. There's other ways to get this information. We don't need her.

Tara Palmeri (16:47)

We know there are a thousand victims. Why would we need her information which is not reliable? Like you said, she perjured herself. Even the doj, they didn't, they didn't care to speak to her in the first place. They didn't trust her. And it's. And she's only going to speak in a way that would obviously benefit her and her story and her narrative. Right. And it may, you know, be useful in a way that could like exonerate President Trump or, or somehow clear him. But that doesn't, that doesn't cause. Give. Give the victims the justice that they've really been deprived of this entire time. Not to, you know, bring this up, but when you were brought to the ranch, how old were you?

Annie Farmer (17:26)

I was 16 at that time.

Tara Palmeri (17:28)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annie Farmer (17:32)

And yeah, I think, I do think it feels to, to, you know, be asked by the government to come forward as a witness. You feel, of course, that it is a risk, you know, to come forward in that way and to participate in a trial is really exhausting. Right. It takes over your life for a period of time. But I also felt grateful because I knew there were so many people that were harmed. And so I felt it was my responsibility to come forward and to say my piece and to be honest about what my experience was in order to, to make sure that there was justice for this wider group of people.

Tara Palmeri (18:09)

It takes so much courage. It really does.

Annie Farmer (18:12)

I appreciate that. I mean, I think it felt like the only path forward. Right. It felt like very, very important to do, but it did. Not knowing what I was getting into, it really did take a toll. It was very exhausting. And it took a long time to sort of. Because of the way these things unfold and all the delays and. And then there's a long gap between, you know, a jury finding a verdict and then sentencing. So it just drags on. Right.

Tara Palmeri (18:38)

And it was during COVID Everyone forgets that. Very isolating time.

Annie Farmer (18:43)

Very isolating, yeah. Having to wear, you know, you're wearing masks into court, like, just so many things about it that were, you know, pretty stressful. And. But in the end, it felt like, okay, all of that was worth it because, you know, this person who harmed so many people, who, you know, threatened my sister, who was a big part of recruiting people that were then, you know, like, people like Virginia. Right. She recruited Virginia. And we know what happened to Virginia after that and how that all unfolded and how much she suffered. And so I felt like, oh, my gosh, it was worth it, because we know that she is going to now be serving this time.

Tara Palmeri (19:23)

That was what you thought.

Annie Farmer (19:24)

Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm hoping very much that that is still the case, that she will remain in prison and that this. Whatever's happening right now, will be wrapped up without a change in her status. But I think it is important for people to know that, especially because some of the people that are arguing to bring her in, I don't trust their motives. Right. I. They say that they just want, you know, more transparency. This, in this case, or they say they want justice, but I think they're people that have really just ridden the wave of this to promote themselves and gain, you know, power for themselves. And I don't. I don't think that they really honestly care about what happens to victims or recognize that even just speaking her in this way could feel like a betrayal to the people that work so hard to put her behind bars.

Tara Palmeri (20:20)

It is a victimization to give her legitimacy, again, to say that, okay, now she has something to say. She's worthy of her words matter. And. And. And also, I mean, people don't speak unless they get something out of it. That's just how it works.

Annie Farmer (20:35)

Yeah, That's. That's. I think, why the people I've spoken with are so concerned there. It's hard to imagine that she suddenly would just be totally forthcoming with this information if it was not going to benefit her in some way. And, and so we feel very on edge as we're waiting to find out what does this mean. And left, you know, left in the dark. Right. We have not been like kept in the loop in terms of these proceedings. And so it feels, it does feel like a retraumatization because it's like once again, is the government going to let us down once again? Is it going to be that. That we sort of took risks for. For nothing. And I'm really hoping that that is not the case.

Tara Palmeri (21:18)

I thought about that this weekend and I think I was texting with you, I was like. Because, you know, a big part of the reason that the Epstein story came forward again was that Courtney Wilde fought that to say that her crime victims rights were. Were. Were violated with the sweetheart deal with that, that non prosecution agreement that, that applied to people who were. Were co conspirators that were named and unnamed. I mean that is insane. And I thought to myself, with the f. With the DOJ coming forward and saying case closed, there's no client list, we're not moving forward. He never blackmailed anyone. There are no third parties, essentially, is what they said. I thought, are they violating the victim's rights by not conferring with them first on that and asking them? Because so many of the victims that I've spoken to can name names and can say there are numerous men that they were trafficked to. And so I know that there's a technicality in the law and that's why Courtney lost on appeal in the Crime Victims Rights act is that if there were no charges to begin with, they can say your rights were never violated because there was no crime.

Annie Farmer (22:23)

But it feels to me they're so wrong here. Right. I mean that's just. That kind of is such an illustration of the problems with this case. We all know that there were crimes and yet, you know, she fought so hard and then that. And then to lose on that technicality seems just really insulting.

Tara Palmeri (22:45)

Yeah, it's. And her story is an incredible one. But the one thing I do see, and it's a, it's like a common denominator between all of you, which makes me admire you guys so much, is that you don't really fight for yourselves. You're really fighting for each other. And that's sort of a special bond that I don't think people really understand with survivors of sexual assault. Like not a lot of them, they've become so dehumanized and debased by what happens to them, that they don't see themselves as worthy, fighting as for worth, fighting for themselves. That's why they don't often come forward. I mean, coming forward as a Jane Doe is extremely, extremely powerful thing to do. You're going up against not even just your perpetrator, the justice system that doesn't tend to listen to women. And then you think, well, why am I doing this? And you have to, you know, you see the humanity and the other girls that were. Were abused, and that's what. That's what leads you to keep going in this fight. And it's something that has always inspired me about. About this story. And all the women that I've met along the way, they just are. They're. They're doing it for each other. It's like they don't even. They don't even see it as something that they do for themselves. It's a really, really selfless act.

Annie Farmer (24:00)

I appreciate you saying that. And I think it's something that, you know, Epstein and Maxwell did not understand, because I don't think they are wired that way. Right. But I think, you know, I think Maria was motivated to report maybe less even by what happened to her than by what happened to me. You know, the reason she made that initial report to the FBI is because they had harmed me. And that, you know, big sister part of her was not gonna let that go. Right. And I think that, you know, when Virginia talked about how having a daughter and realizing suddenly, wow, the innocence of a child and how wrong it was, you know, for her and other young girls and women to be taken advantage of that way, you know, it was like that, I think, helped motivate her to take on this huge fight. And I do think you're right. There's something about seeing other people suffer in this way that really motivates you to not want to let it go totally.

Tara Palmeri (25:00)

If you could tell Todd Blanche or Pam Bondi or President Trump one thing right now, as they start having these conversations, what would you tell them? What would you want to say?

Annie Farmer (25:13)

I think Blanche in particular had a quote about it taking courage for him to seek transparency by speaking with Maxwell. And that just really struck me because I thought, please don't forget about the courage it took for the women who came forward and testified against her. Please don't disregard our courage in order for you to, you know, get some political. Political gains right now or whatever is behind this. This move. Right. It's just, I think when you've been through, you know, this Ongoing saga. It's hard not to be suspicious of what people's motives are in regards to this case. And I just hope that people don't forget about us in their efforts to, you know, Justice.

Tara Palmeri (26:12)

Yeah, exactly. They want to wash their hands clean. I mean, did you. Were you ever told by the Department of Justice, by FBI case agents, Were you ever told, like, don't worry, Annie, we're going to work on this. It's going to be bigger, it's going to be sprawling. We're going to go after the entire network. Like, did they ever actually promise you that they would do more?

Annie Farmer (26:29)

I think that when we. After Epstein's death, they, you know, they brought everyone together in New York who was, you know, who was able to be there. There was a large group of women, many of whom had spoken at the sort of victims impact hearing that had that, you know, it was held shortly after he died. And, and so they did say, you know, this is not over just because he died. We are not letting this go. We are going to be continuing to follow up on leads. And they interviewed a lot of people at that time, and there was this sense of, you know, there could still be momentum and, and there could still be arrests. And, you know, I believe there would be more than Maxwell at that. You know, I mean, I initially hoped and believed there would be more. So much time passed that I didn't know if anyone would be arrested. So when Maxwell was arrested and charged, that felt like a really big deal because at that point I'd almost, you know, really given up hope on anything happening. And so that's why another, I mean, another thing that I think people don't realize, this is the one conviction we have. And so to risk losing this potentially for what? Right. Like, I just, I don't feel hopeful that she would provide any information that would actually lead to convictions of other guilty parties.

Tara Palmeri (27:51)

She will demand something in exchange for it. So it's.

Annie Farmer (27:53)

And I don't think it's too high of a price to pay.

Tara Palmeri (27:56)

Yeah. And they. Yeah, that's. Yep. It's a. It's. It's really too bad. I mean, I'm sure you're seeing too, the way though, that Maria is being attacked just for telling her story. I mean, how do you feel about that, seeing your, your sister being attacked like that? A story, by the way, has been consistent over decades.

Annie Farmer (28:16)

I have, yes.

Tara Palmeri (28:17)

Maria, you know, obviously you're her sister, but she is never strayed in the story.

Annie Farmer (28:23)

Yeah, I mean, this was something that was, you know, so. Well, known in our family because it, you know. Yeah, we had, she had related so many times and I think, yes, as this all first started to come out, she had shared this with many people who at the time, you know, didn't seem all that interested in it. Right. I'm not surprised because honestly, there are a group of very, I don't know, predatory, I would say, people that have surrounded this case that have, you know, always come after the, the women that have spoken out. Right. And it's almost like the more attention you get or the louder you are with your voice, the more that they are going to attack you. And I think that's true in a lot of cases. I don't think that is, you know, just in this, I mean, we have all kinds of examples, horrific examples of people going after victims. And I don't completely understand, you know, what drives those individuals, but I do really just work to tune them out because I think in the scheme of things they're, you know, self serving kind of behaviors. You know, they're not, they're not remembered. Right. And, and I think they're just online trolls. They're trolls. Right. And, and I mean, and at this point, you know, too, we don't know who's being paid by whom. Oh, I'm sure there are right now.

Tara Palmeri (29:41)

That are just existing to try to tear the, to try to take down the credibility of the, of the victims that even the journalists who speak to them. It's, it's not, it's. This is a whole operation. This is a political, this is a dark political story now, which makes me very sad. But this is what it's become and it always has been, but it's just like devolved into this scary monster.

Annie Farmer (30:08)

Yeah, it's frustrating to me because I think, yeah, from the very beginning there has been, there have been political angles on the story because there are political individuals that have been associated with Epstein. Right. But I think it is a much like, you know, at its heart it's not a political story. Right. It's just about abuse of power and it's about, you know, children not being protected. It's about all the ways. I think a really important theme is all the people that look away because, because of proximity to power and wanting to benefit. Right. And so, you know, to me there's a lot that we can learn from this story as a culture, as a society about how to protect our kids, about how to look out for each other and how to, you know, hopefully not have leaders of any political persuasion that are associated with people that are harming young people. Right. But it, I think you're right at this point because of the people involved. It has become very politicized and, and, and I think then we lose, you know, some of the important takeaways.

Tara Palmeri (31:12)

Thank you so much, Annie. I really appreciate it and I admire you. I mean, I know what you did was extremely brave, and there weren't many there. It's. I mean, there are thousands of Jane does, and it's hard to come out. You're up against serious forces. So I really.

Annie Farmer (31:31)

We appreciate you. You know, I mean, I do think that there are a lot of people telling the Epstein story, but not a lot that are doing it with the, you know, with, I think, keeping victims centered and doing it with, you know, the quality and efforts that you've given. So we, we really appreciate that and are grateful to you.

Tara Palmeri (31:54)

Oh, it's a, it's a service. I've always said this is the most important story I've ever covered. I've always believed in, like, I've always believed that the, the role of a journalist is to hold truth to power. And this is a story about that. And it is a class story as well. And it's a, it's just all of it. It's all the, all the worst things in society in, in one story. And so, yeah, I'm grateful to be able to tell your story. So thank you. Thanks for tuning in to the Tara Palmeri Show. I want to thank everybody's support. I know this story is dark, it is deep and it is heavy. And I appreciate that so many of you care and that so many of you have reached out. I believe we have to keep our finger on this story and pay attention. It is bigger than politics, and I know I cover power and politics, but this is actually a story of power, truly of justice. You can see more of my work by going to Power the Maxwells. To learn more about Ghislaine Maxwell and her father, Robert, you can also go to Broken Jeffrey Epstein. And you could hear more of my journalism on Jeffrey Epstein. I'm also in the Netflix documentary on Glenn Maxwell. I've written a piece for Politico magazine called the Women who Enable Jeffrey Epstein. If you want to read more. I've done a lot of reporting on this and I'm continuing to do more reporting. So any. So all of your support is really, really amazing and I'm grateful for it. If you could review and, and, and send this podcast to your friends. Like it. Share it. It's really helpful. To me follow. And I'm going to keep going on this tireless pursuit to make sure that justice isn't thrown out the window and that, you know, people are held to account. I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenate, my social media director, Sarah Carney, my researcher Abby Baker, and the entire team that works on the Tara Palmary Show. If you want more of my reporting, you can of course go to tarapalmary.com and you can sign up for my newsletter, the Red Letter. I am constantly publishing on the Jeffrey Epstein story. I'm working on some bigger reporting, so stay tuned and subscribe.

Child (34:09)

Mom and dad, the school supplies you buy me this year will mostly end up in my mouth. Maybe shop low prices for school at Amazon so I don't eat up all your money, just something to chew on. Amazon spend less, smile more.