B (5:49)

Yeah, so like 15, 16 years ago, I mean, a really long time ago, I was, I was in these circles. I was kind of the alt right. Before it was the alt right. It was called the alt right, but it just recently been coined around 2010, 2011. So I was writing for a lot of these websites. I left the, I left that life behind. I became a. I went to law school, I went academia for a little while, and then I started writing publicly under my own name, like 2019, 2020. So like a decade after I'd left all that stuff behind and I was still right wing. I mean, I still endorsed Trump in 2024, although I was becoming more and more skeptical of the Trump movement. I was Project 2025. I did, I wrote some stuff about civil rights law, about the dei stuff that was apparently an inspiration for some in the administration. So there, you know, I'm still pretty right wing and there are a lot of right wing things I, I agree with. But I've been watching kind of what's been happening and there's kind of two things. Like Fuentes has always kind of been, you know, Trump came on, when Trump came along in 2016, the entire Conservative movement, the entire establishment, including Fox News, including the people who ran magazines, like they were all horrified by him. The only people who liked him first, the Republican voter, but like, the only people who were kind of intellectuals or elites who liked him were these white nationals or people who just liked the idea that he spoke up a lot about immigration. So Stephen Miller comes into Trump's orbit by then, and I think it becomes more and more kind of, these people are the Trump, the center of maga. They are the true believers. And so like this Fuentes thing, it's kind of interesting because he's a guy who's got his own, you know, got his own streaming show. He's on Rumble. He's not a lot on YouTube or Spotify or Apple or any of these mainstream outlets, but he is there and he, and he's basically influenced. We could see people like Charlie Kirk in 2019 changes his views on legal immigration. Fuentes brags that he sent his followers to go harass Charlie Kirk on the, on this question. And Charlie Kirk comes over to the goers. The goipers do not become like Charlie Kirk. Right. And so this is kind of was mainstreamed within the Republican movement. And it's kind of been. The contradictions have been, you know, the idea that, like, you can leave Fuentes here while you're having, like, a government that is revolves around the idea of keeping immigrants out as foreigners as a threat to the country. When everyone's kind of listening to Fuentes and being influenced with ideas, it's just kind of boiled over in the last, you know, month or two with kind of Fuentes being on Tucker being just like the spark for something that's been bubbling there for a very long time.

A (8:29)

Yeah, I was sort of surprised. I was like, I feel like this has been happening for a long time. I mean, wasn't. I mean, President Trump. And you wrote about this too. I mean, he came down that elevator in 2016 saying that Mexicans are rapists. So, you know, I don't. It does to me. I feel like it's always been there, and I don't know why. I guess I'm surprised maybe to see the shock over it. And is this just like Ted Cruz and more of the normie, Like Republicans feeling like this is their moment to strike? Like, they sense that these people are either weaker after the election. I mean, was it. Was it after the election?

B (9:09)

That was before when all this started.

A (9:10)

Okay, it was before. But, like, is this Tucker, Is this Ted Cruz finding a moment to strike at Tucker after that really antagonistic interview over Israel. Right. And Iran? I almost sort of. I always try to think about things a bit, a little bit more three dimensionally. And I know that there are a lot of egos involved in all of this. Right. Because I would say that Tucker made Ted Cruz looked pretty bad in that interview. So. But he's been really leading it. And yes, there's been a huge out, like, you know, backlash to Tucker for having Fuentes on his show and for platforming him. But at the same time, like I keep saying, like, Trump had him at Mar A Lago. Trump.

B (9:50)

Well, Fuentes gets rid of the plausible deniability element. So when Trump had him at Mar A Lago, I, like, I believe Trump, he says, I, I didn't know who. I don't think Trump is, like, watching streamer services. He came with Kanye West. Fuentes had kind of hanged on to Kanye West. And I Think just because what Kanye west was there, Fuentes happened to be the hangar on. And some Republican Congress. Members of Congress, like Paul Gosar and Marjorie Taylor Greene have done events with Fuentes and then have gone back and said they didn't really know who he is, you know, whether we believe them or not. But that's kind of what they said. There was always this plausible.

A (10:22)

Speaking the same language.

B (10:23)

That's. Yes, I agree with you completely.

A (10:25)

Like, they're doing it all. I don't.

B (10:27)

Yeah, Fuentes gets rid of the plausible deniability element, because these people will say stuff. They won't say America is a white country. They'll say, this is a country for heritage Americans and the people who built it. Right. Like, what does this mean?

A (10:43)

My ancestors are buried deep into this.

B (10:46)

Yes, yes. He says, you know, he says, even says stuff like that. Those of us whose ancestors fought in the Civil War. But, like, none of that. It doesn't set off. It sets off alarm bells. But. But there's possible deniability. Some people could say, oh, yeah, well, but that. They like that. I mean, they like that. They could. Both sides. Fuentes, you could pull up the clips and they'll say, it's a white country, Jews. He's laughing at the Holocaust. He's saying, you know, a lot of it is trolling, but it's like, you know, it is he. That is his ideology. And it's harder for these people. You know, like Tucker, for example, it was fascinating. He goes to. You talked about his relationship with the president and the vice president. He was on Charlie Kirk show after Charlie Kirk died. He was sitting there talking to Vance. He goes to the memorial service, the big one they had in Arizona, and he gives a speech basically accusing the Jews of killing Charlie Kirk. He says, you know, they both. You know, there was a guy 2000 years ago, also people in Jerusalem who eat hummus, and he basically accuses Jews of killing Charlie Kirk. He says he. He denies it, of course. And then Fuentes does this monologue mocking Tucker for pretending he's like, oh, Jerusalem, who. Anyone could live in Jerusalem. Anyone could eat humless. Right? And this is what Fuentes does. Fuentes is the person who's like, saying the whole thing is ridiculous. Like, you guys are playing footsie with these white nationalists. You guys are dog whistling, and people go for the real thing. So I think this is like the. The debate that's kind of been. It's not even a debate. It's been like the kind of ethno populist wing has Been just taking over. And the people who are against this stuff, like Benji, the Ben Shapiro's of the world, they haven't known what to do with it. And so you're right, they see an opportunity because like, like it's, it's always, they do this thing with the possible deniability and Fuentes is on Tucker and they're yucking it up together. That provides an opportunity to say, okay, like we know what's actually going on here.

A (12:31)

Yeah, I want to go back to like your evolution really quickly. So there are quotes that you made anonymously, I'm assuming, where you said race mixing is like destroying a unique, unique species or a piece of art. It's shameful. You said Muslims can't assimilate because of genetic and IQ differences between them and Native American Europeans. You've made other comments like that. What were you thinking at that time? Like did you believe that? And, and what, where did that come from?

B (13:00)

A I had the time of my life. A I never felt this way before.

A (13:10)

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B (13:21)

And I owe it all to you.

A (13:25)

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B (13:30)

Yeah, I believe that. I mean I think I was, I was reacting. This is not an excuse, but this is what everyone says. But I was reacting to the left and I was reacting to political correctness. And this was, you know, what wokeness was, was starting up. And I think there was this kind of, there is this thing where it's like the worst thing in the world is to be as racist and sexist. And you know, a lot of people on the left, they had broad definitions of what it meant to be racist and sexist. And I think what happens with a lot of young men is they go, okay, I'm going, I hate these people. They're trying to tell me what to do, they're trying to tell me what to think. Therefore I'm going to go in the other direction and I'm going to be the thing that they think is the worst thing in the world. To be racist. To be racist and sexist.

A (14:10)

And I think it's like, I'll be provocative, I'm going to be a flame.

B (14:13)

Yeah. And then you, and then you kind of convince yourself of, of those ideas and then you just kind of go with it and you find people who think similarly and it becomes a, you know, your own alternative community. So I think I understand kind of the psychological impulses that are behind a lot of this stuff. And I think that's why I've been able to kind of see it. Like, I see what this is. I see it taking over. Like, it's not just like the people who are in a mindset of were still in like 2010 conservatism. They look for any evidence they can that these people are just conservatives who are a little bit trolling or like to make jokes or whatever. And I kind of see the origins here, and I say, no, it's actually like a real thing that you're going to have to grapple with.

A (14:55)

You know what I find to be really interesting, and I hope you won't take offense to this, you're of Jordanian and Palestinian origin. And some people would say that that's not white. Stephen Miller is not a white Christian nationalist. He's Jewish. Nick Fuentes has a Hispanic sounding name. His father is part Mexican. Why are so many of these people leading the movement that it would seem to work against their self interest?

B (15:22)

Yeah, I mean, so, yeah, so it's interesting because it's kind of like. Because this thing that's. I think it goes to the idea that like, white is a very kind of disputed phrase. I mean, it's not like this. You know, some people go far, they say all this.

A (15:35)

I mean, you look white to me.

B (15:36)

I mean, sure, sure.

A (15:37)

Not white.

B (15:38)

Sure. You'.

A (15:39)

Pl.

B (15:39)

You're plausibly right. There's a lot of people who are plausibly white. And there's always, you know, you could debate who in America is white or not. And I. Maybe it's. Maybe it's a kind of way for like people who are like a little bit not like WASP fully to, you know, have something to latch onto and say, you know, I'm mainstream. It's kind of like a side of assimilation. I don't know. I. I don't know about people's like, psychological motives. I mean, for instance, Hispanic name. I don't know if he's got a lot of Hispanic blood, but it is a common occur a lot of, you know, Native American blood, but it is a common occurrence that it's like kind of become a trope that the guy who's like a Mexican is like the biggest griper. It is like something that people have noticed. And yeah, it's, it's odd, but it's kind of not odd. I mean, at the same time, it's like the more. At the less extreme form and like the look at the broader public. You know, a lot of Hispanic males went for Trump. Right. They're not all gropers, obviously, but I think it was like 50% or something like that, which people would have thought was unthinkable, you know, years ago. So this nativism stuff, it's not like it's just for whites and then it alienates everyone else. It's actually appealing to a lot of people who aren't white either.

A (16:45)

Yeah. I mean, I even think about my father, who's Italian. He's very dark, like much darker than you, Sicilian. And he used to tell me about, like, what, what it was like to be discriminated against for being Italian. Couldn't go to the. The lakes that my friends lived at. You couldn't live in certain communities. Yeah. And so to me, I always kind of think it's interesting. Like, I think sometimes notice that he does try to assimilate a little bit harder, even though Italians, I would say, are considered white at this point in their, like in American. But maybe some people don't because they're Catholic. And, you know, I'm sure extreme white nationalists think Catholics are white.

B (17:18)

Well, the thing about Catholic, the Catholic thing is very interesting because a lot of these people, like Fuentes is Catholic, a lot of these people are aggressively Catholic and like, partial to like the theocratic. So it's like, it's this weird thing, thing where you like, okay, race religion, just like being anti lib. The post liberals, I mean, have a, have a, have a strong thing about like, you know, Catholicism is the way we should organize our politics and it should be kind of like the governing principle.

A (17:43)

And Catholicism was dead after.

B (17:46)

No, no. I mean, it's, it's. It's weird. Well, the Rodrier Pierce, I don't know if you read the Rodrier Pierce on his impressions of Washington. He talks about, well, you know, the anti Semitism and this kind of griper dumb has been like baked into the theology of a lot of these young people. I think a lot of them, like, kept. A lot of them convert Catholicism. They just think because it's kind of like old and it has rules and it has beautiful churches. It kind of has this aesthetic appeal to them. You're right. But it's not that. It's not 1920s Ku Klux Klan.

A (18:12)

It's kind of much broader than that institutional thing ever. You hate institutions, but you want to be a part of.

B (18:18)

Yeah, they hate that. They kind of hate the Pope too. Yeah, they hate the Popes. They're always complaining about them. But. Yeah, yeah, they joined it, they joined it to me.

A (18:25)

I just, I don't. Yeah, but mind blown. Yes. Also a very scandalous guard institution. So. Yeah. Okay, let's talk more about this, this, this tension that's brewing. Did we see it play out in any ways in the last election? And then by last election, I mean literally a week ago, do you think that, that, that, that part of this tension played out and that it may have hurt the Republican Party or helped it? What kind of impact is it having right now?

B (18:56)

Yeah, so I just, I just wrote an article on this and I looked at, as I was looking at the data and so everyone shifted towards the Democrats in these races. It was just a very good, very good election for them. But the, the shifts were specifically higher among Asian and Hispanic communities. So I don't remember the numbers exactly, but it's like whites and blacks shifted Democrat maybe 5 percentage points each. And it was in like the 20 to 40 range for both Hispanics and Asians. And that's the Virginia gubernatorial race in New Jersey. The two biggest shifts towards the Democrats compared to the 2024 presidential election were the two most Hispanic districts in the, in the entire, in the entire state. And this stuff has like, I think this stuff does grab the headlines. I mean you watch something like south park, it's the kind of, the, the, the ICE agents and kind of what they're doing on immigration is like a heavy focus of the show. So this is, this really filters down to the mass culture. And so yeah, I mean Trump 2024 coalition, you know, and they ran on like the anti immigration stuff. I think that it hits differently during the election. People just vote Trump because they think he's funny or because inflation, you know, normal economic stuff. They see maybe he'll go after criminals. They don't see themselves in that category. And then now we see all forms of immigration kind of, you know, people, the ICE agents going to the communities when they're not wanted, trying to get these mass raids and Yeah, I mean I don't have any other explanation of why there would be this massive shift. It's backed up in the poll numbers too. I mean Asians and Hispanics are, are moving away from Republicans.

A (20:28)

Yeah, South Southeast Asians. And we know that the H1B visa, they are talking about getting rid of that. I mean that's, that was, Yeah.

B (20:36)

I mean DeSantis goes on Laura Ingraham and he says the H1B visa is a problem. It's undercutting wages of Americans. He said it's supposed to be a lot of countries, but it's like, all from India. I mean, he's making. Making it just very, very explicit. And you wonder, like, what's the line between this and gripers?

A (20:50)

Yeah. What's the problem with Indian Americans? I thought that they were.

B (20:53)

I don't. I don't. I don't know. You'd have to ask. Yeah, you'd have to ask Meatball Ron. I don't know.

A (20:57)

Is Meatball Ron channeling something to gripers in the hopes that they'll hold?

B (21:01)

Well, so I have this theory. He's going to try to run in 2028. He's running against Vance. Vance has a Indian wife. He's not going to come out and say Vance has an Indian wife. But talking about Indian immigration a lot is a. Kind of bring attention to it. And the groipers will bring attention to it. The gripers like talking about Vance's family. So, yeah, I think it's probably. Probably a political play.

A (21:24)

Yeah. And Casey's so enchanting. Can we talk about.

B (21:28)

Is that sarcasm? I don't know.

A (21:31)

Whatever. But how is JD Pandering to groipers? Because, like we said, his. His descendants are buried deep into the earth. How do you see him in the hopes of, like, do all candidates that want to run in 2028 have to play to this faction?

B (21:47)

Yeah, they're either playing to them or they're put. Like, Cruz, who might run in 2028, is positioning against them. Right. Vivek is doing. Vivek Ramaswamy is running for governor of Ohio now. I mean, he's. He's kind of. He's saying some things against. He calls it identity politics of the right. So, yeah, it is kind of. It is at the top of mind. I mean, the advance. Vance, when he was picked as Trump's vp, the online right. People saw him really as one of them, because I think as one of them, he would go on these very obscure far right podcasts. And this was like, back when he was a senator, he was running for Senate and, like, this idea of, like, never punch. Right. This idea of, like, never denounce anyone who said anything racist. Like, they love that stuff because that opens a lot of doors for people who are actually racist. And so you have this. Yeah. You have this signaling. Yeah. My ancestors, those of us whose ancestors fought in the Civil War, you know, have, you know, have more say than the people who criticize them, he said at some Claremont event. So he's always done this. The. The problem. Vance has is his family. He got married back when. When being in a multiracial hillbilly elegy.

A (22:57)

And talking about how Trump destroyed Appalachia and his policy. You know what I'm saying?

B (23:02)

But, like, yeah, it's a fascinating. It's a fascinating book because, you know, he's like. He's talking about, like, kind of the habits of Appalachia and then blaming other people for their problems and politicians who demagogue and tell them the Chinese and immigrants are to blame. He's talking about himself, you know, four or five years later. And so, I mean, he was. Yeah, he was. And then he cut. But he. But he's kind of like. Of course. Yeah, he's. He's had this. And so, like. So, yeah, so he's. He's in a difficult place, though, because he is subject to this. Like, he can be attacked as, like, close to Silicon Valley. He can be attacked. Like, most of them will not say explicit things about his family, but it's going to be underneath the surface, he sees himself as vulnerable. And I think in the last few days, you've seen some tweets from, like, Chris Rufo and then seconded by Yoram has only saying, now that Charlie Kirk is gone. You know, Charlie Kirk, because he passed, is kind of, you know, they. They're all trying to seize his memory. And it's like JD has to step in and, like, be the adult here and say, here's the line, which I don't think he can do because his whole thing has been, you know, playing footsie and dog whistling and being one of these people for the last two or three years.

A (24:07)

It feels almost inevitable that someone will primary him from the. Right.

B (24:11)

Oh, I think it's. Yeah, I think it's just. That's what Desantis is going for. I think that's probably what Bannon is going for. Bannon has said nice things about Fuentes. He's. He's talked about Silicon Valley guys. He's talked about transhumanism. He's talked about these ideas. Idea. These. These ideas. These ideas are just aimed at. Aimed at Vance. So I think that's Bannon and probably Desantis from his.

A (24:30)

Right.

B (24:30)

Then you could have, like, a cruise.

A (24:32)

Yeah.

B (24:32)

And maybe. I mean, from what I've heard from people who know him, they say he wouldn't want that. And he's not very good at kind of. He's kind of out of his mind. I think he enjoys being up there in Mont, up there in Maine, in his cabin, talking about Chemtrails Yeah, I don't know. He wants to get out of the stuff, but it would be a fascinating. It would be fascinating if it happens. Happened.

A (24:53)

Okay, so we were sort of talking about it, but, like, how much have these national. These white nationalist ideas already just seeped into the party and it's like, there's no way of getting rid of them at this point.

B (25:02)

Yeah, I mean, the people who came into Trump's orbit, like, so, like, Trump had a lot of mainstream supporters after he won the election because they come into his administration. People like, you know, Mattis, like, people who think like guys in Washington who think like generals, like people like Grant Priebus. They come in, they come administration, they all end up leaving, hating his guts. Right. Like, 40 cabinet officials just say, you know, an amazing record. And the people who stick around are people who are, like, just playing to Trump's instincts and people who see him as their great hope for restricting immigration and restricting trade and having this, you know, this nationalist vision of America that's just, like, cut off from the world. And so this has kind of become. You look at the DHS Twitter account, I don't know if you've seen this. These memes are, like, straight out of, you know, iconography from, like, the alt. Right. From online. Right. A few years ago. And so, like, is there. Is there something like, is there a hope for the Republican Party right now? These are the people who have gotten the jobs in the Trump administration. I think this is kind of what MAGA's devolved into. But the fact that people are fighting this out now is, you know, when. When you have the fight, there's a chance that something else might happen. Right. So, like, who knows? Like, JD could come out and say one thing. The conservative movement is kind of weird. It's like, it's kind of highly suggestible based on who its leaders are. And so you'd never say never. But I just think the rest of the Trump administration in the immediate future. Yeah, it's not looking good.

A (26:23)

So how do you see this all playing out, this fight? We saw Mamdani. I'm sorry, not Mamdani. Excuse me. We saw Vivek Ramaswamy and we saw Elon Musk. I said, mamdani, I'm going to ask you about him next. But we saw Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy suggests H1B visas are a great idea. Vivek basically died off in that fight. I would say never to be heard of again. This was back in December, and I Think that was sort of like the first time you really saw the tension brewing.

B (26:50)

Yeah.

A (26:51)

Really come to a surface after the election when everyone was just the victory and everyone's just united because we just won. Right. And Vivek is nowhere to be seen. Elon's gone. I mean, everyone wants his money, obviously, but, like, without it, they don't agree with him. So where, you know, where do we go from here? It's that time of year again when you start arranging pumpkins on the stoop, try out a new cranberry sauce recipe, and plan out a tablescape that'll outdo last year's. In other words, it's when you break out all your DIY holiday skills. And now ADT is making it easy to DIY your home security, too. Their systems aren't just simple to set up, they also fit within your budget. So get excited for your next project because your peace of mind just went DIY. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT ASAP. When every second counts, count on ADT.

B (27:46)

Yeah. Well, Vivek, I will say, is not completely gone. People might not follow it, but he is the. He is. Has an overwhelming lead in the primary race to be the Republican nominee for governor of Ohio and did just receive Trump's endorsement. So that's interesting. He's kind of still there. Yeah. So his.

A (28:03)

He went underground for a little while.

B (28:05)

He wasn't. Yeah, he wasn't. He was no longer plausible in national politics because these crazy people online are not paying attention to the Ohio primary, very gubernatorial election. Right. And so, yeah, Elon Musk, you know, I thought that when the tech guys came into the coalition and I wrote something to this effect, like, this will be good because we're going to have people who are smarter, people who are more cosmopolitan, people who work with immigrants and socialize with immigrants and see how important they are to their businesses. And then like with Elon Musk, like, at least Elon Musk pushed back a little bit. But I think a lot of these other guys, I mean, people don't realize that they are very online and their brains have kind of melded with that of like, the conservative commentariat. So someone like, you know, Marc Andreessen, it's been come out that he's like, you know, kind of, like, skeptical of, like, Indian immigration now, which is kind of crazy, you would think, for, for a tech entrepreneur.

A (28:55)

How are you going to get engineers, which are the hardest people to recruit? I mean, they literally, people pay $100,000 per engineer to Recruit them.

B (29:04)

Yeah. And you look at like the kind of the Fortune 500 companies, the American businesses that have become billion dollar companies. It's amazing. The number that were founded by immigrants, it's like like 40, 50%. I mean, you would just be cutting off America's economic advantage over the rest of the world. But unfortunately, like, I think that like even their, their own self interest, you know, these guys have more money than anyone could spend in 10 lifetimes. They're just on their phones all day getting angry like everyone else in the culture. And yeah, I don't see like the tech right as kind of like an independent intellectual force in the conservative movement anymore. It's more these, you know, it's more basically the comment sections and Tucker and the, and the influencers.

A (29:44)

And so by a comment section, like we are being ruled by subreddit. That is what is happening right now.

B (29:49)

And Trump is like, it's like Trump's whims plus the comment section. But like Trump is like a moderating force because Trump will say that the operation Warp Speed was good. Trump will say just the other day they were going crazy online because he said it's good to have Chinese students coming into the country and interviewing with Lauren Ingram. The fans go crazy. Right? So a lot of these things, like Trump is not as extreme as them. Trump is kind of putting a lid on a lot of this stuff. And so what happens after Trump, you know, God knows.

A (30:17)

So he has the power to put a lid on it and. Well, he.

B (30:20)

A little bit. A little bit, yes. I mean, he's, he's obviously like, you know, the leader of the cult. Obviously what he says, like has an influence, but he can't just, you know, he can't just say something and then everyone changes their mind. People will not criticize Trump. They'll criticize his advisors or whatever. But yeah, I mean, he says nice things about high skilled immigration all the time. I don't think he's ever said anything bad about high skilled immigration, but it doesn't change their opinions. Although he did do that one thing on H1B visas. I think Trump, he probably doesn't know what the policy implications of a lot of what he's doing. They're probably selling it to him in the way Trump understands, like this will give us the great people who are going to make America great again. And he's sitting there and he has his instincts and it's kind of, it's, it's, it's an effect. But these people are ideological white nationalists. Like, if Trump goes against the idea that America should be a white country, and keeping it a white country is what we need to prioritize. Yeah, they have no time for Trump in that case.

A (31:14)

Is Trump's alliance with Israel causing the rift?

B (31:19)

I don't think it's causing the rift. I, I think that this stuff has been bubbling for a very long time. I think they fight the of gropers, fight over Israel with the establishment because Israel is the last thing that they disagree with them on. They adopt, like I said, they adopted Charlie Kirk's views on illegal immigration. They've become kind of like this idea that you don't punch. Right. You don't denounce someone for racism that you talk about. The heritage of this stuff is so mainstream. And then the only thing is that Trump is very, very pro Israel. So these people who are white nationalists don't like that. But that's the only thing they can attack. They can't attack ali legal immigration anymore because all the conservative influencers agree with them on that issue. So I don't think it's a cause, it's just, it's just kind of a, it's kind of a, it's kind of a point where the, they, they differ. But I think that just shows, like, how much the conservative movement has moved towards the gripers.

A (32:10)

Yeah. You know, when I think about Trump right now, he acts like he's in legacy mode, Right. He's touring all over the world. He wants his Nobel Peace Prize. He's trying to rebuild the Middle east, maybe for future property, but more likely he's a guy who's in his 80s and knows he's on death's door at some point, like, you know, in the next decade or two, who knows with him? But point is, like, how do these gripers, white nationalists, how do they feel about him being so intertwined in other parts of the world? Talking about freeing even, you know, Christians in Nigeria who are being persecuted, obviously not white people, or talking about, you know, like, these bombing these boats off of Venezuela. I mean, how do they feel about his interventionist instincts that don't actually mirror America first?

B (33:00)

Yeah, you'll, they'll get some criticisms, especially when it's the Iran attacks, you'll get some criticism about these foreign seas adventures at the same time, like, their, their priority is what happens in America. And so, like, the fact that he's going around like, bombing people, people every once in a while are going on these, like, shows where he's getting, you know, these kind of, like, tours where he's getting credited for ending all the wars in the world. You know, that's kind of a thing that's like, they're happy to see him doing that. He is kind of. It is funny. He is kind of in legacy mode. I think that the immigration issue is like a couple weird things like vaccines. These are the places where he can't cross the base as long as he gives them that and as long as, you know, they are with him. And so I think that's like, it's a mistake. You know, some people have said, like, oh, this is kind of not a serious person who doesn't have ideas. And like, yeah, there's a lot of trolling there. But in the end, there is like an ideology. There is like, you can predict which politicians they're going to like or dislike, depending on what they give them. And so, like, this kind of foreign policy stuff, you know, they're fine with Trump kind of being a goofball. I think everyone understands that.

A (34:06)

Hmm. Okay. So whatever Marjorie Taylor Greene is up to in terms of thinking that's a.

B (34:11)

Way to cross, well, they're positioning themselves for post Trump. They're not anti Trump. But, like, this stuff will matter when Trump is gone. And somebody will be like, I'm the most maga. I'm the most America first person. And at that point, like, they could start fighting about foreign policy.

A (34:25)

What do you think about the right making Zora Mamdani the new mayor of New York City, the case against legal immigration?

B (34:33)

Well, it's funny, you know, I'm not a fan of Zoran Mamdani's, you know, political views, his economic views, views on policing, stuff like that. And, you know, you can criticize him in a pretty straightforward way for those, for those things. I was, you know, surprised. Maybe not surprised, but kind of struck by the extent to which the criticism of him revolved around his race. And you'll see the stuff like, you know, he's a sharia communist and stuff like that.

A (34:57)

That.

B (34:58)

And, you know, if he was a. If he was. If he hadn't assimilated into American culture, he would agree with conservatives on a lot of things like abortion and LGBT rights. Right. I mean, the fact that he is assimilated is the reason why he's a leftist. And so I just think it's like kind of a sign that the right is just so focused on identitarianism that, like, they see a socialist who's non white or, you know, democratic socialist, whatever Mamadani calls himself, and they don't focus on the ideological part, it's an afterthought. The main thing is he eats rice with his hands or he's an immigrant. I mean, it's kind of. Trump probably won naturalized immigrants in 2024, and nobody said now we should welcome them because this fear that we had that immigration was going to permanently turn the country to left, it didn't come true. Right. And then after the immigrants switched back because of the Trump administration policies, you know, you have people like Laura Ingram on, on Twitter saying immigration has changed. It's kind of like, you did this, they tried voting for you, they saw what happened. Right. But they have the conclusion before they look at the evidence and then they take the evidence and fit it into what the story they want to tell.

A (36:06)

Yeah. So what does this mean for the party, though? I mean, I know you said we don't bad things.

B (36:14)

Look, I think that, that it's going to be, it's going to be a. It's going to be a circus in, in 2028. I've looked, I looked at the.

A (36:22)

Do you think Israel will be front and center in this circus?

B (36:25)

Probably not so much, because who knows what the foreign policy situation is. I mean, I think even the focus on Israel's cobbed out a little bit since this is the cease fire. So who knows?

A (36:34)

It's hard to fire.

B (36:36)

Yeah, yeah, right. That's, you know, people get sick of it. The stories kind of get old. Even if it does, even if it does blaze up again, it'll be, you know, I, I think the immigration thing, JD's family, it'll be part of it. It'll be part of it. Trump is too close to, you know, you're too close to that Yahoo or whatever. I was looking at this one guy. Have you seen this kid? Bryland Hollyhand? So this is a, this is a kid. You should look at this kid because he just, he's like 19. He just popped up on Twitter. He is like, he was like made into lab to be like a conservative, like, influencer from like 10 years ago to be the next Charlie Kirk. And this kid is like, you know, golly G. You know, well, Jesus, we got to be Americans this and that. And even he is like, he's like, you shouldn't be anti Semitic brothers and sisters in Christ. But, you know, APAC and like, the corruption of Netanyahu government, we should talk about. So it's like even this guy who is just like designed in a lab to be the establishment person is kind of talking like this and has to give A little bit, yeah. I think their long term future Republican Party, they're not, this is the most pro Israel. Yeah. Republican administration we're going to get in.

A (37:39)

A long time, but we're not going to see some sort of like rift like the left has between, you know.

B (37:46)

No, because it's not that. It's not the number one, like they don't care about Palestinians. Like, that's not the issue. The issue is, it's like a proxy.

A (37:52)

For like this is America first thing, isolationism. But maybe they don't really even care about that, as you said. They just see it as Trump like sticking his little flags around.

B (38:00)

And, and yeah, yeah, I think it is, it is immigration. It is kind of this idea of Democrat because you look at Europe, I mean it's the same thing. There's a right wing populist movement and all these big countries and it's all over immigration and like the, the local conditions are different. Like every party's different a little bit, a little bit of way. But like they're all kind of against immigration. So it seems to be like this is something that's just sweeping the world and I think it's core to what MAGA is.

A (38:25)

Yeah. I actually covered Brexit in the UK and I thought it was going to happen for sure because I went to the UKIP conference and I spent a lot of time and like actually talking to working class Brits and you know, a lot of South Asian Brits, they actually were voting for Brexit because they wanted the Eastern Europeans to get out. And you know, they thought they're talking to American, a lot of the older kind of colonel type, they would speak openly about their desire to end immigration because it was open borders and open visas and you know, I live there with a European passport. But yeah, it's, I said, I said I think Brexit's gonna happen. I told my editors that and I told my friends too. I said, I think Trump will win. And I, and a lot of people were like, what? I was like, you guys are feeling it the way I'm feeling. There's something happening here. So yeah, we'll see what happens. Do. Although obviously the Brits have paid for it and like they, their, their economy has shrunk considerably because of it. Yeah, I mean they're struggling.

B (39:32)

Yeah. And it didn't even reduce immigration, I think is the funny thing. They, they still had high immigration, often from non European countries. So yeah, now reform is coming up. The, yeah, the immigration issue is a tough one because it Is it is like an actual part of public opinion that a lot of public opinion just really centers around not liking immigration. And you could argue with them and you could tell them, you know, it's actually, in some countries, it is actually a cause of crime. Not in the United States, where immigrants actually have a lower crime rate. So it differs country by country. But, yeah, it's a difficult issue you have to deal with.

A (40:02)

Yeah. Okay. I wanted to ask you, obviously, you had a very big impact on anti DEI movement. We talked about that earlier. You suggested that Trump should ban affirmative action in government contracts, something he did immediately. He Repealed Executive Order 11246. For everyone who wants to look it.

B (40:22)

Up later for policy nerds.

A (40:26)

Okay, you get rid of dei, but what about the fact that people will just now will be hired based on patronage or nepotism or how good they look on TV if they want to work in Trump's cabinet?

B (40:36)

Yes, I mean, that's, that's, that's very relevant. And yeah, I mean, part of government is, like, putting up procedures so that stuff doesn't happen. Right. You have contracts, you have, like, inspector generals, you have, like, you know, the Senate's supposed to confirm whether a person is, you know, serious or not. Sometimes Trump has gone too far. I mean, Matt Gates, like, at least people looked at that one, the Senate, and they said, you know, that that's too far. But you're right. Yeah. DEI is not the only way kind of. Of processes of merit could be corrupted. I think immigration restrictionism is a big one, too. Desantis gets up there and he says, you know, H1B visas, every Florida Floridians can, you know, fill every position, which is just, like, crazy, like Florida. I mean, no offense to Floridians out there. Aren't a lot of smart people there. But the idea that, like, you know, the rest of the world, you're not going to find a lot more competent people by being welcoming is. Is just crazy. So, yeah, I agree with you. I mean, there's been a. This is not. This administration has gotten rid of DEI and a lot of things, but it's not some kind of paragon of meritocratic hiring by. By any means. Yeah.

A (41:38)

Do you regret, like, putting this forward and convincing Trump to do it?

B (41:42)

Not. Not on this issue, because I agree with that. I mean, I think I regret broadly the support for the Trump administration because I think it's got in a bad direction. But on this issue, it was, I think it was the right thing to do.

A (41:53)

How are you blindsided By Trump or why? What. What did you think it was going to be?

B (41:59)

I thought, you know, I thought it was going to be something more like the first administration, which, you know, it was. I think the January 6th stuff was bad. I think that a lot of the stuff he did was bad, but it was within limits. Right. He covered, like, a traditional Republican in a lot of ways. We didn't see these, you know, these mass deportations. We didn't see anyone going after H1B visas. We didn't see the tariffs. I mean, the tariff rate. I was looking at the tariff rate during the first Trump administration. Effective tariff rate, like, average across tariffs went from, like, 1% to, like, 4% or something under Trump. So it went up. Right now it's like, at 12 or 15%, officially, like 20. But Trump is so corrupt that he gives so many exceptions that it's like. It's like half that. And so I really. I think I underestimated, like, how much, like, Trump's instincts were going to be. We're going to be taking over, and how little of a check there would be within the Republican Party or within, you know, senators who had to approve nominees. I saw this before the election to assert it. I mean, I said it was becoming a cult. I said these people, these, like, based, you know, quote, unquote, based people who go around thinking in terms of ethnic identity and hating the left. I saw that they were ascendant, but I don't know, I just. I just thought that. I thought there were guardrails. Apparently was wrong.

A (43:09)

Yeah. It has been really interesting to see him in, like, a YOLO phase, which it doesn't seem like. And they're. Everyone around him. They had to be willing to stick with him after January 6th.

B (43:21)

Yeah, that was a big one. That was a big one. Yeah. They. They. A lot of people turned on him. They came, and then he did a smart thing, which he went around and said, everyone who wants to buy endorsement has to say that I won in 2020. And then DeSantis, like, he's like, still the king of the party. DeSantis runs against him, but DeSantis says Trump won it 2020, and it's all witch hunts against. Against him. It's like, how are you gonna knock this guy off? Right. I think he's just. He's got the psychological, like, he gets it. Like, he kind of. He has a very instinctual understanding of how to gain power and maintain power over people.

A (43:53)

Is he the only griper, Shepherd? Like, is he the only one together?

B (43:58)

Yeah, that's the interesting question. The question is, will it just kind of break up afterwards? I don't know. Like, Vance is kind of a unit. He could have been seen as a unifying figure just because he's troublesome. You know, he's Trump's heir. He was picked by Trump, and these online people write him like him. But, like, the Fuentes thing, I mean, it's interesting. Part of the Fuentes thing is, like, these people who turn against him, it's because he's not a team player. Like, a lot of people see, like, he's kind of a wild card. He'll, like, just go, like, J.D. could be the nominee and he could be against J.D. vance, and it's all his family. And so that kind of. That kind of scares people. Yeah. This thing could all just break apart after Trump's God.

A (44:34)

We shall see. What do you. I know you're a conservative and you obviously study your own party very closely, but anything you're seeing from the left that you think people are not. It hasn't really bubbled to the surface yet that's brewing right now.

B (44:52)

Yeah, yeah. Bubbles to the surface. I don't know. I've been looking at kind of. I've been watching the conversation on the left. I participated in it a little bit. I. I think that they're. They're kind of. They're heading in the right direction. There's, like, a lot of understanding that they need to moderate on a lot of these social issues. Just as a matter of political survival. I think there's an understanding. There's become a sophisticated understanding of the housing issue and what's going on there. You know, I'm not a big fan of Mamdani's policies, I will say, for the left at least. Like, he doesn't seem like he's angry. He doesn't seem like he hates anyone. You know, you look at someone like, you know, Stephen Miller, a lot of these people in the Trump administration, they do. The vibe is just angry and kind of hateful.

A (45:30)

You're in power. This is what you wanted. Like, why are you still angry right now? Yeah.

B (45:36)

And like, the kind of the shrieking, like, oh, they're trying to kill us all. They're doxing us like the Ice Age. It's just kind of so over the top.

A (45:42)

And then I don't understand that. They're like all these. I hear all these white men being like, they're coming for me, they're coming for me. I'm like, dude, you guys are the ones in powers. They're not coming for you.

B (45:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (45:54)

No one's coming for you.

B (45:56)

Yeah. There's amazing. It's like, look at what you made me do. Like, things. I'm so impressed right now. I have to go. You know, full, full Hitlerite. It. It makes no sense.

A (46:02)

So what you made me do. I'm a deputy White House.

B (46:08)

I'm a pure. Yeah, yeah. I'm the poor president. I'm the pure vice president. Yeah.

A (46:12)

How is the victimhood all the way up to the top here? I mean, they have literally co opted victimhood in a way that I. I thought could never be imagined.

B (46:21)

I've said that. Yeah, I've said this too. The Drear piece. I mean, Rob Drear is interesting because he's like, he's horrified by anti Semitism, he's horrified by groupers. But, like, also gives them, gives like, kind of credibility to their claims. He'll say, like, you know, their generation has been impoverished and they've watched this and that, and it's like just a statistic. A third of American households make $150,000 a year. I mean, America is kind of blowing the rest of the. Throwing the rest of the world away in our just overall economic performance. And like, okay, like, I didn't like dei, I didn't like affirmative action. I don't like political correctness. But you're not like, you're not in a gulag. You're not like oppressed by world. That's the problem. A lot of us thought was with the left. It's like they exaggerated things. They were hyperbolic. They said words are violence. You know, there's silence is violence. This is kind of things that just seem like people unable to function with reality. And, and Republicans have just adopted that. Like, there's no shame of like, being a drama queen or being hyperbolic or just kind of being out of your mind on these issues. And it's. Yeah, I don't.

A (47:22)

It's like the left becoming kind of woke. My dad.

B (47:25)

Yes. Woke. Right. That's why it struck a nerve.

A (47:28)

Oh, my God. I have to write about the woke right now. All right. I have to ask you one last thing. It's about the theocracy. Is this just a theocracy, this government that we are in right now?

B (47:41)

Well, it's a funny kind of theocracy because, you know, Trump has, like, not really done anything on the abortion thing and he's like, not done anything on IVF either, which he promised to do, like, in the pro IVF direction. I think the Thing with the theater.

A (47:58)

What did he promise again during the campaign?

B (47:59)

He promised, like, I think 2025.

A (48:01)

Right?

B (48:02)

I think it. I think he was promising, like, free IVF or something like that, or, like, forcing insurance to cover ivf, which he didn't do. But he also, like, a lot of these theocrats would like to see him, like, try to ban IVF or do whatever he can on that. The thing is, the theocracy aspects of, like, yeah, there are people, like, within the administration who have, like, a theocratic lens, who are religious fundamentalists. The thing is that stuff, like, first of all, it's not where Trump's heart is, and then it's also not politically popular. Like, if you tried to ban abortion, if you tried to repeal gay marriage. This just doesn't fly. This is not where the public. Public is at the immigration stuff, although they're like, Trump is underwater. Like, there's still, like, a lot of support for, like, deporting all illegal immigrants. And so I think it's just, like, because of who Trump is and because of kind of where public opinion is, it's the ethno. The administration's gotten much heavier on the ethnonationalism than the theocracy. So, you know, I'm not saying it's like, don't worry about it, but it's, like, not any more theocratic than any other Republican administration. Probably less so than the Republican at the state level who are, like, banning abortion, which national Republicans are not trying to do.

A (49:04)

Yeah, this was really fascinating. I'm gonna hang up because my phone is about to die. But this was really, you know, for me to get deep in there and hear all about the right and why suddenly this is the war that they are having right now. Who knows what next week will bring? But, yeah, appreciate your time and thanks to everyone who joined and obviously subscribe. That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri Show. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you found this episode to be fascinating. I learned a lot. Eyes open. I want to thank you all for tuning in. If you like this show, please rate it, subscribe, share it with all of your friends. If you want to support my independent journalism, please go to tarapaulmari.com that's T A R A P A L M e r I justone I.com and sign up for my newsletter, the Red Letter. It's how you can get my exclusive reporting straight to your inbox. And if you become a paid subscriber, you can support my independent journalism and get all of the exclusives. I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenate. I want to thank my researcher, reporter and social media queen, Abby Baker. And I want to thank Adam Stewart, who does my graphics. See you again tomorrow.