Inside the Social World That Kept Epstein Untouchable

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tara Palmeri Show

Episode: Inside the Social World That Kept Epstein Untouchable

Host: Tara Palmeri
Guest: Holly Peterson
Date: March 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the social networks, psychological dynamics, and culture that allowed Jeffrey Epstein to maintain and rehabilitate his reputation among elite circles—despite being a convicted sex offender. Tara Palmeri and journalist/author Holly Peterson explore not just the moral failures of individuals, but the broader societal forces—ambition, insecurity, networking, and the hunger for status—that may have kept the “accomplisher class” quietly complicit. Peterson, with her insider's knowledge of New York's elite, offers nuanced perspectives on why so many “otherwise savvy people” continued their association with Epstein and his inner circle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Accomplisher Class” and Its Psyche

• Definitions and Characteristics
  • The “accomplisher class” consists mostly of self-made, highly ambitious, and competitive individuals in power circles of New York. Many have overcome modest backgrounds, which fuels their ongoing insatiability for achievement and status ([05:16] Holly Peterson).
• Insecurity and Insatiability
  • "One would think that often the people that have reached that level of success can kind of relax. But... is massive insecurity and insatiability, a desire to keep going, to keep having a second third act." ([05:57] Holly Peterson)
• Networking as Survival
  • Epstein mastered the art of curating powerful dinner tables—attendees saw networking as too big an opportunity to refuse, despite knowing his past ([09:32] Holly Peterson).

Gray Area vs. Black & White Morality

• Public Reactions to “Cancel Culture”
  • Palmeri notes some claim cancel culture unfairly punishes people merely for appearing in the Epstein files—but she herself sees post-2008 associations as a sign of “bad judgment” that undermines public trust ([00:47] Tara Palmeri).
• Peterson’s Nuance
  • Peterson pushes for analysis over blanket condemnation—emphasizing the complex motives and psychological justifications that high-achievers might deploy, even if the choice itself remains deeply questionable ([10:35] Holly Peterson).
• Quote:

  “Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people are a bit shady. Sometimes people really want something and lose their judgment. And it's important to talk about the gray.” ([14:16] Holly Peterson)

The Role of Women and Reputation Laundering

• The Female Enablers
  • Palmeri highlights the 'pyramid effect,' noting accomplished society women who helped “whitewash” Epstein’s reputation, making it easier for others to remain in his orbit ([20:04] Tara Palmeri).
• Networking, Gifts, and Complicity
  • Examples include Kathy Rumler, a high-profile lawyer whose emails show an uncomfortably close relationship with Epstein—including downplaying victims as “prostitutes” and accepting expensive gifts ([10:35] Tara Palmeri).

Culture of Silence, Paranoia, and Loyalty

• Current Mood in Elite Circles
  • With each data dump from the DOJ, anxiety rises among those previously affiliated with Epstein—fear of reputational ruin, cancel culture, and exposure is pervasive ([24:40] Holly Peterson).
• Protecting the Network
  • Peterson describes an elite code of mutually beneficial favors, often operating in the gray zone—networking that grants some undue advantages, but doesn't always cross legal thresholds ([34:38] Holly Peterson).
• Quote:

  “There's a voraciousness and a rapacious ambition that blinds people. And I have seen that in action because you get something you really, really want.” ([34:38] Holly Peterson)

The Epstein Paradox: Power Without Accomplishment

• Epstein’s Place Among the Elite
  • Despite wielding immense social power, Epstein himself had no real accomplishments other than networking—prompting speculation he inserted himself among achievers to gain “legitimacy” ([46:41] Holly Peterson).
• Quote:

  “…Compared to the people he lured into his lair, Epstein never accomplished anything.” ([45:58] Holly Peterson)

Ghislaine Maxwell and Elite Grooming

• Peterson details Maxwell’s omnipresence at elite events, her odd and provocative behavior, and how she both groomed victims and “groomed” high society to normalize Epstein’s aberrant behavior ([44:41] Tara Palmeri & Holly Peterson).
• Memorable Moment: The anecdote about Maxwell orchestrating a raunchy birthday song about Epstein’s “24-hour erections” and love of schoolgirls, performed for top-tier guests, epitomizes how boundaries were blurred ([45:41] Tara Palmeri).

Money, Empathy, and Human Nature

• Loss of Empathy with Wealth
  • Studies have shown that “your empathy goes down as you get more money,” a cycle visible in the amoral calculus of many Epstein associates ([30:19] Holly Peterson).
• Quote:

  “Why do people who have more care less and lose their empathy? It makes no sense, but in a lot of instances, it's true.” ([31:12] Holly Peterson)

Moral Lessons and Broader Implications

• Class Boundaries
  • Working-class and middle-class people were rarely in Epstein’s direct network—highlighting that proximity to such power isn’t distributed equally, and those outside these circles have different ethical exposures and incentives ([28:16] Tara Palmeri).
• The American Dream, Ambition, and Failure
  • Peterson and Palmeri debate whether relentless ambition is fundamentally corrosive or part of the “American dream”; philanthropy is cited, but also critiqued for self-serving motives ([37:15] Holly Peterson).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What is this, a predator’s ball? I won’t be going.” — Tina Brown, relayed by Holly Peterson, when invited to Epstein’s (and Woody Allen’s) dinner ([13:09] Holly Peterson).
• “I like to look at the gray... A lot of people are shady at certain times in their life and a lot of people are never are. Right?” ([29:46] Holly Peterson)
• On the power of social networks:

  “You get more rich by spending time with rich people...” ([24:17] Tara Palmeri)

• Cultural observations:

  “Aspiration and sweating is not okay in England. And it’s true in a lot of European fancy classes, having to try is seen as lower class somehow.” ([31:29] Holly Peterson, via Plum Sykes)

• Epstein’s lack of accomplishment:

  “He never did anything. He never accomplished anything... he wanted to be... someone who was in the black book of Ghislaine and other wealthy and connected successful people's contacts...” ([46:41] Holly Peterson)

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Key Timestamps

• 05:16 — Introduction to the “accomplisher class” psychology
• 09:32 — Epstein’s gift for curating power tables and networking
• 10:35–14:16 — The ethics of association, ambition, and “gray area”
• 20:04 — The societal whitewashing of Epstein by elite women
• 24:40 — Current “paranoia” in elite circles over exposure
• 30:19–31:12 — The corrosive effect of wealth on empathy
• 34:38 — How mutual networking shields the elite
• 44:41–45:41 — Maxwell’s role in grooming, provocative party anecdotes
• 46:41 — Epstein’s lack of accomplishment versus his social power

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Conclusion

This episode asks tough questions about where individual failings end and societal complicity begins—especially among the ambitious and powerful. It does not seek to excuse or exonerate, but offers a deeper look at the psychology, ambitions, and rationalizations that enabled Epstein's return to polite society after becoming a registered sex offender. Despite mountains of evidence and public outrage, few have faced real consequence—due, in Palmeri and Peterson’s view, to the insularity, ambition, and self-protective culture of America’s top tier.

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For more in-depth discussion and reporting, listeners are encouraged to read Holly Peterson’s original Wall Street Journal piece and Tara Palmeri’s prior work on Epstein’s network.

Transcript

[Tara Palmeri]

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[Holly Peterson]

These were not the people that were there for sex. It was the random people, like a lawyer from Goldman or a lawyer from another firm, or doctors or life gurus like Peter Attia, who just were bantering back and forth with them, whether they went to the island, the dinner or whatever. And I'm trying to come up with reasons thoughtful people would do that a lot of thoughtful people didn't.

[Tara Palmeri]

Welcome back to the Tara Palmarie Show. Jeffrey Epstein didn't launder his reputation alone. An entire social class helped him do it. And that's something I have been struggling with as I watch people now try to claim that there is some sort of cancel culture around anyone who appears in the Epstein files. They say it's unfair that people who spent time with him, did business with him, stayed in his orbit after he was already a known sex offender, have to pay the price for it. Some of them have lost their prestigious positions for it. Some have been ostracized from society. But I've always seen this as very black and white. If you chose to associate with him after that and you were in a position of power, it says something about your judgment. And that raises questions about whether you should be trusted to lead. But obviously, people tell themselves different stories, right? They say, well, I just went to one of his dinners. I was there to network. That was just the world that I worked in. And we didn't know the extent of the crimes, whatever it might be. And then there are people like Michael Wolf, a journalist who basically said he was observing Epstein for years, trying to understand him so he could write about him, which of course, he never did. He did write something that he was going to put in his book that he sent to Jeffrey for review and literally did not include anything about the underage girls in it. But I digress. He did also want Jeff to buy New York magazine with Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein. They put in a bid together, and now he is the Epstein whisperer, an expert. And these relationships, they keep bringing me back to the same question. Is this just a story about individual moral failure or is it about something bigger? Is it about a culture that has been so seduced by money, status, access and sex that it helped launder the reputation of A known predator for years. I know that a lot of people are really angry right now because there have been very few people who have paid the price for this, especially in public life. And I think I can tell why. Many people see this as black and white, but not everyone does, of course. And that's why I wanted to have this conversation with journalist Holly Peterson. She wrote about this phenomenon this weekend in the Wall Street Journal in a story that is about how this is more complicated than just black and white. She says she knows because she was born into this world. She knows Ghislaine Maxwell. She. Galen even went to one of her book parties, the idea of him. She was also at a party that Epstein attended. So she intimately knows the people who were around Jeffrey Epstein even after his crimes were not known. And I wanted her to explain this to me. I wanted her to explain the psychology to me of these people and why they would continue to spend time of Jeffrey Epstein to give me the nuance to make me understand what if there is really a gray zone? I'm curious to hear if you are convinced that there is a gray zone. Of course, leave your comments. That is how we keep this community going. And hit that subscribe button too, because that also helps to keep the community going. But I want to hear. Do you think that I have a blind spot that I am being too, I guess, too much of a skull? Is it because I know the victims and the extent of these heinous crimes? Do you think some people were just unfairly swept up in the Epstein files? I'd be curious to hear what you think. So definitely leave a comment and listen to this interview. I. I think you'll find it fascinating. Holly, thanks so much for coming on the show. You and I go way back to covering Epstein. Back in 2020, you were on the Power of the Maxwell series, talking about Glenn Maxwell, who you knew. And you've written about Epstein many times through the perspective of what you have dubbed the Accomplisher class. And in your latest piece in the Wall Street Journal titled How Did Epstein Snare so Many Otherwise Savvy People? You explain why this, this group of strivers, the Accomplisher class, ended up essentially stomaching Epstein and spending time with him. But there's. I guess what I really gather from your piece is that you think there's a lot more nuance than the. I guess everyday people see this story as black and white. You're kind of saying there's a gray area here and that's what you explore in the Wall Street Journal. I. I Suggest everyone go out and read this piece. But thanks for coming on the show.

[Holly Peterson]

Well, thank you for having me, Tara. I do believe there's one question, as I said in the piece rises above the filthy froth of the Epstein saga, which is what were all these people with pristine reputations thinking? Why were they going to his house? Why were they going to his island? Why were they bantering with him on email? It just, it absolutely makes no sense. These people who have, for the most part in New York are self made, right? Like the old Protestant establishment is kind of a thing of last century. There's not many scions of wealthy people who are running any corporations at all. It's hard to think of one except for maybe someone in the Johnson family of J and J. But in any case, most of these people are self made. They are big strivers, they're very competitive with each other. And when you've gone from say, being a cop, son or any kind of lower middle income person and you're suddenly rich and live in Manhattan and you're powerful, there's a lot of insecurity and adjustment that's gone on in your soul and in your psyche to get there over the decades. And one would think that often the people that have reached that level of success can kind of relax. But what I see around me, having grown up in Manhattan and having grown up in this set, is massive insecurity and insatiability, A desire to keep going, to keep having a second third act. And it's fascinating to watch. And I think that the psyche of these people is something you and I need to talk about in order to understand why someone would go to dinner at his house.

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, no, I think you're right. I mean, there are definitely different groups of people. Not everyone should be canceled for being on Epstein's, you know, emails or on the in the Black book. I struggle with it myself sometimes I think to myself, am I just being a little bit of a scold or a hardo? And I think like, well, how could you associate with him at all? Because I mean, I knew about Jeffrey Epstein after 2008 and after he went to jail because I worked at the New York Post. And if you are someone like the Accomplisher class, you are reading Page Six, you are reading the New York Post which covered Jeffrey Epstein's breast. But you know, I, I struggle with this. So I'm kind of like happy that you came on to talk about it, but for the perspective of the audience. So like you said, you grew up among these people, but Your father is very accomplished. He was a secretary of commerce. He, he ran a number of banks and he kind of came from a similar background. Right. He, he was, he came from like a Greek background.

[Holly Peterson]

My father grew up in a coffee shop that his Greek father started in the 20s. They came over as teens and he was a lucky man at the right time. He graduated from College in the 50s and it was boom time in America. And he was at University of Chicago and Milton Friedman and George Shultz and all kinds of amazing accomplished men at that time were there who kind of brought him into their world and brought him into Washington and brought him into corporate life. And he obviously he succeeded on his own and was self made. So I grew up with one of these people and I guess what I'd like to say is that gave me an understanding of how these people operate.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

And yeah, Tara, it's honoring these people and it's not judging these people, it's just analyzing why someone else. And I need to also really make clear these were not the people that were there for sex. It was the random people like a lawyer from Goldman or a lawyer from another firm, or doctors or life gurus like Peter Attia who just were bantering back and forth with them whether they went to the island, the dinner or whatever. And I'm trying to come up with reasons thoughtful people would do that. A lot of thoughtful people didn't. Right. But of those that do, I think they were greedy, I think they were ambitious, I think they are constantly networking and I think Epstein was very good at setting a table and curating a table where people felt like they had to go and they'd get something out of it.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

So you might meet a trustee from an Ivy League school there. You might meet someone as a member of a golf club you want to get into. You might meet someone who's going to put 100 million into your venture. And you know, the host has a shady past, but Ehud Barak is there and all these Senator Mitchell's there. So you kind of think, well, if these big shots are there, I can go, I can go for a night because I need this thing. So people park their.

[Tara Palmeri]

Two men, by the way, who were accused. Yeah, two men, Senator Mitchell and Ehud Barak were both accused of rape by Virginia Giuffre.

[Holly Peterson]

So yeah, well, those are extreme examples. Those are extreme examples. But I think there were other people around his table that weren't involved in the sex who were there for curiosity reasons. And you know, these people feel invincible. Look at what They've done with their lives and they, and there's a sense and curiosity. So I kind of go through the various reasons why someone would engage with this person. Again, I'm not exonerating them, but I'm explaining the thinking or the loss.

[Tara Palmeri]

Well, I think about. You mentioned a lawyer from Goldman helping him. And I think of Kathy Rumler, who was President Obama's deputy White House counsel. And she was a girl like what you're saying. She came from the sort of not, you know, average middle class background, goes on to Georgetown law, ends up in the White House. Then she goes to Goldman where she's making $24 million a year, and she's cooing to Epstein over emails because he gave her a Birkin bag and a spa treatment at the Four Seasons. The thing that really disturbed me about her, again was in those emails, she's basically referring to the victims as if they were prostitutes and helped him to try to kill the story about the, the interview that Virginia Giuffre was about to give to ABC News. Like she was involved in trying to help him with that advising at the very least. So, like, there's a part of me that's like, but what about, like, women? Do you know what I mean? And other women, and, and it just that, like, she obviously doesn't have her job anymore. Goldman Sachs, they defended her for a very long time. In fact, Tony Fratto, who was the White House press secretary who is now under George Bush, who is now at Goldman, he defended her for a very, very long time, like a shockingly long time to me, and attacked CNN for their early reporting on this. And I, I think about Kathy and I just, I don't know, I don't have a ton of sympathy for her, to be honest. And I mean, I, I look at Peter Atia and I think, you know, he, he's talking to Epstein about how he needs to hire this model for his, you know, his, his longevity or his, you know, health care business. And it's like, well, why do you need a model for that? He's worried about her own visa because if she leaves the modeling firm, this is according to the emails. She won't, he won't. She won't be, you know, able to stay and continue to work for him. Like, there are hundreds of people out there, thousands of people out there who I'm sure would be happy to take a job from him. He doesn't need a model. You know what I'm saying? There's something. And like, obviously we know what he said about, I. I get. And this could be. Because I know the survivor so well, and I've looked at it through that perspective where I don't give them a benefit of the doubt. And I'm, like, trying really hard to. I really am.

[Holly Peterson]

Yeah. No, I. I think that very few people are even trying to give them a benefit as the doubt, Tara. And again, this is not trying to exonerate. I'm trying to explain what on earth they were thinking. Tina Brown, who edited Vanity Fair Forever and whose Daily Beast was the first one to publish the story in 2008, was invited by Peggy Siegel to have a dinner with Woody Allen at Jeffrey Epstein's house. And she famously said, what is this, a predator's ball? I won't be going. So there's certain. Plenty of people.

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah.

[Holly Peterson]

Who didn't go. Right. And you like to think you would have been that person, however, in the Rumler situation, because lawyers are careful people, and that their job is to study ramifications and consequences. Right. That's what they do. And why accepting shoes, Louboutins and Birkin bags and spa days from some guy who you're kind of advising, kind of not advising, you know, just. It doesn't seem appropriate. If someone sent me heels or $20,000 bag, I wouldn't accept it. I would think, what am. You know, what's. What's the play here? Right? You don't want to be in debt. I mean, I. You know, people offer me sports tickets sometimes, and I'm like, I don't want them because now I owe you something. You know, it's like there's a give and take that goes on. Manners and politeness that when someone gives you something that you're expected to remember that. Right. And in this case, when you're accepting from someone who's a convicted criminal, you just don't want to be doing that. So I don't understand, frankly, why certain people, especially women, would engage. And there were doctors that engaged. There were bankers that engaged.

[Tara Palmeri]

There were Eva Dubin up until the bitter end, literally. Eva Dubin, a doctor.

[Holly Peterson]

And there were other doctors that. There were plenty of doctors at Mount Sinai who apparently went over there and set up an operating table on his dining room table with lights and assistants and everything. I mean, you just think of, like, this is crazy. This is absolutely crazy. You're a doctor. You get a call, and you get asked to fix a young woman's head on an older man's dining room table. It just. I really don't understand it. But if we are looking for reasons, right. That people with otherwise pristine reputations would engage with him at all that were not interested in sex, presumably, Right? Like Kathy Rueml. Like Brad Karp, who's a guy everyone in New York adores, the lawyer. You know, I have to try to come up with a reason. And to the extent that our country's super messed up right now, I think it's because we don't analyze the gray anymore. It's either they're idiots or they're okay. Cause they said no. But sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes people are a bit shady. Sometimes people really want something and lose their judgment. And it's important to talk about the gray, right? And analyze the gray. And again, I'm not exonerating, but I think people went for a bunch of reasons. There was unbelievable networking. He was very manipulative and dangled people in front of people who he knew the other person would really want because he wants their kid to get into college, or they want a job or they want funding. And when you really want something, sometimes you're so desperate you think, all right, well, I'm not going to get caught doing this one thing to get to my goal, right? And that's part of old and feeling invincible and not thinking, of course. But I'm just explaining why. Why these people did this. See?

[Tara Palmeri]

But then, as you even mentioned, Brad Karp. Today, news comes out about Brad Karp, and everyone adored him, right? And he had this big. He had a chairmanship position at Paul Weiss. And now in the New York Times today, we learned that Brad Karp was helping Leon Black to try to block a Russian woman from getting her visa because of her sexual entanglements with Leon Black through Jeffrey Epstein. So he was in deep. You know, this wasn't just like a. An invite to a dinner party. He was trying to harm the lives of victims, essentially.

[Holly Peterson]

Okay? So we need to do a second show, and you and I need to spend some time analyzing who we think actually was 100% not interested in sexual. Katie Couric went to his house. Maybe she wanted an interview. I can't believe Katie Couric wanted sex. Right? I don't believe Kathy.

[Tara Palmeri]

But I'm like. But I am also, like, why? Like, I don't know. For access. You're going to hang out with a sex offender for access to

[Holly Peterson]

KGB killers? You know, in Russia, in my 20s, trying to get interviews with them. I mean, who knows why she was doing.

[Tara Palmeri]

To me, I'm like. But that was all about getting, like, William and Kate that was like the puff moment of she was chitter on at the time. And everybody wanted access to William and Kate, which is why George Stephanopoulos went there and Katie Kirk went there. So when you think about that, it's not like what you were doing to get to KGB killers is like to me at least, offering value to public service in a way that justifies the ends to the means. I don't really give a shit about an interview with Kate and, and William who are inevitably going to do an interview. It's just a matter of who with. Again, it's the ambition, like you said,

[Holly Peterson]

it's the ambitions and eyeballs. When you talk about. So even though you are not interested in Kate, a lot of people are.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

I worked at ABC News for a long time. Sometimes we covered coups, sometimes we covered Gulf wars and sometimes we covered OJ And Tanya. Nancy, right?

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah.

[Holly Peterson]

Involved in a lot of news organizations. I was at Newsweek again, abc. Now I write for the Journal, I've written for the New York Times, the Financial Times. Sometimes we do things and sometimes we don't.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

So I might hate you a bit, but I like to think there's no way. And I like to think any one of my family or my close friends and Tina's a friend, you know, would have said absolutely no. But a lot of people that went and I happen to think ambition in New York among a certain set of hugely accomplished people is so rabid and so rapacious that it's this single minded. I've got to get more, I've got to keep achieving. I want more, I want my kids to have more. And I'm going to park my judgment for four hours in order to get it because I'm feeling desperate and I want to be number one or I've already done this and I'm starting a whole new thing and it has to be as successful as the first thing. That is the explanation in my mind, discussing the gray right about why people network with unsavory people sometimes it's quite a simple thesis. I explain a million examples of that and a million reasons for that. Things in people's psyches that would push them to do that. But that's, I think, the reason. If we're coming up with a reason, why would these people do this who presumably weren't interested in sex?

[Tara Palmeri]

Right? I mean, they were interested in the

[Holly Peterson]

access because that is a, that's a group. There's not, there's no way every single person that was bantering with him was interested in Sleeping with a woman.

[Tara Palmeri]

No, you're right. I mean, I wrote an entire piece about this called the Women who Made Jeffrey Epstein. It was back in 2000, I think I wrote it like right when Biden came in in 2021. And it was like a pyramid. And at the bottom of the pyramid were the society women, essentially, who continued to spend time with him and sort of whitewashed his. They whitewashed him. They laundered his. His reputation, which is what he needed. I mean, he couldn't even give money to charities. They wouldn't take it. So he needed these women like Peggy Siegel, he needed Eva Dubin, he needed Melanie Walker, who was working for the Gates foundation, around him, these accomplished women that people looked up to, to kind of rehabilitate himself into society. And I do think you're right. I mean, there is a part of it that seems like it's the accomplisher class, like you mentioned, but there's a little bit of old money sprinkled in there too. You know, you have Prince Andrew, obviously the oldest of old money, goes back to a modern. He needed sex. Right. That's. That's the angle for him.

[Holly Peterson]

He was a little desperate on the sex front and obviously compromised to begin with. But speaking of old money, can you think of any. Anyone who's old money, who's running a big bank or a big firm in New York? I have a lot of trouble coming up with that. I really. Idlemen of. We went to Andover, Exeter, Harvard and Yale, and then we just kind of automatically get this job. I feel like that really started to crumble in the 80s with the greediest good speech in Wall Street. And when these go getters were more able to take these positions away from these essentially entitled WASPs who weren't as gritty as the people who wanted it more and came from rougher backgrounds. Right. And all those people were just. And then you sprinkle in a bunch of immigrants who were coming from countries where they were prosecuted or had lived in poverty or whatever, like my grandparents did. And they're hungry. They're really, really, really hungry people. And they want more. Getting a lot, and then they want even more.

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, it's basically new money chips on their shoulders. Wanting to get into what you called dinners with Epstein, the island quote. It was like a private club. There's another amazing quote in your book in this, which I want to read for our listeners and definitely go and read this story. It's great quote. When a new list came out, I had a dinner. You're quoting Ewan Riley the co founder

[Holly Peterson]

of BDA Partners, Ewan was not engaging with Epstein. He just told me a funny story about Epstein that's in the piece, but go ahead, tell the story.

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, so he's. He's quoted as saying, when a new list came out, I had a dinner partner who first said he hoped he wasn't in the black book. Then he checked his phone right there under the table and said, oh, thank God I am.

[Holly Peterson]

So why would someone say that?

[Tara Palmeri]

Right?

[Holly Peterson]

Why would someone say that? I think it's also really important for listeners to understand this class of accomplished people. It's people who've knocked the ball out of the park.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

It's not always big money, because big money is from finance or from being a big partner in a law firm or from real estate. There's not a lot of industries in New York where you're going to make money. There's no oil in New York and there's not these, you know, industries like Hollywood that are here so much so, a lot of people are running foundations, they're running museums. They're news anchors who are obviously very well paid. They're publishers. Right. There are a lot of people who are equal to the people who have a kajillion times more money because they're so successful in what they do. And that's really the bar of these type of people who hang out and endlessly network each other and circumnavigate the globe from Davos to Aspen ideas to whatever else, conference around the world where they can encourage, increase their power, increase their access and advance themselves or their children in ways that aren't always super clean. Favorite banks and all that kind of stuff.

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, definitely. It's all about the network, as you say. It's about spent. You get more rich by spending time with rich people is essentially what you write. Can you give us some insight into the mood in New York? I mean, you mentioned that each DOJ dump brought anxiety. People who have spent time with Epstein, like, what's the feeling on the ground right now?

[Holly Peterson]

Well, why wouldn't it? Right? I mean, I'm sure I, you know, there's millions of pages. So you and I need to keep having these conversations because there's a lot more that's going to come out and. But I think the mood is general paranoia. You know, cancel culture is very, very strong. People made mistakes. People were cheating on their wives. People were wanting something they shouldn't have parked their judgment to go for. I mean, there's a lot of people that do that. In life, right? Like not everyone who rises above everyone else is super clean the whole time, right. Like a lot of times there's trampling, a lot of times there's a bit of shady maneuvering, right? And it could be, hire my son, it could be, you know, let my daughter do this or I'll invest in your project. You invest in my project. Doesn't mean it's unlawful, Right. It just means there's networking. That, that is just not fair. Right? That's really what it is. It's not fair to, to everyone else. And so if these people are doing that a fair amount with each other and hanging out together and enriching themselves because of it with more success or more money or both, you know, there's a huge liability to these people's reputations for having gone and having interacted in any way. Now if you've accepted presents from this guy, you're super screwed. I don't know how you get out of that. I mean, I don't know how you, especially someone who raised so much money and an independent woman who can buy that stuff. I mean that just shows, that just shows pure greed. Right. And to want to advise him on, don't worry, this will go away. I mean, I don't know how much. We should be very careful how we talked about people, but I don't think.

[Tara Palmeri]

Kathy, I've looked into a lot of this stuff, okay. I mean, I really don't.

[Holly Peterson]

But what I read was a little more like, don't worry, you're going to get through this. This witness is incredible. Not like she was like prepping him for something, but in any case, she took his side, which is all I need to know.

[Tara Palmeri]

He's a pedophile. Convicted pedophile.

[Holly Peterson]

Yeah. No, I'm,

[Tara Palmeri]

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[Holly Peterson]

And I think it is important to explain it. Right?

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah. I thought about it though, and I'm like, I thought about like the middle class. Like, I come from a middle class background and I thought about it and like whether we ever had people around us with shady past that we forgave, you know what I mean? But I guess I wasn't really around people with money that I needed. My parents were trying to get

[Holly Peterson]

controlling a museum or controlling or controlling.

[Tara Palmeri]

We're just regular people. And when you look at the Epstein files, it's like you don't really see, you know, I thought about, I'm like, well, you don't see any tradesmen, you don't see any nurses, you don't see any teachers. But then I did think about all the people that did work for him. They were happy to work for him while he was, you know, they were his butler, they were his pilot. They were the, you know, the guy, Larry Vasofsky who went out and bought the little pin cameras and put them in Kleenex boxes so that he could surveil his guests. And you know, I went and I knocked on their doors for the broken Jeffrey Epstein podcast with, with Virginia. And I've got to tell you, for a retired butler and a retired pilot, they were living pretty large. I mean, they had beautiful homes, which made me think that Epstein was paying them really well, which suggested to me that like, everyone does have a price.

[Holly Peterson]

Yeah. And I think that's the novel, by the way. Everyone has a price. Right. Like, what do you. When I say I think it's important to talk about this, I just think it's really interesting. Right. And just saying all people with money are evil and slippery and the only way they got it is by networking and all this nefarious stuff. And everyone who didn't is fine and never does that. You know, I mean, that's just not a sophisticated way to, to think about what's going on. Right. So I like to look at the gray and I like to consider all those things. And you know, a lot of people are shady at certain times in their life and a lot of people are never are. Right?

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah.

[Holly Peterson]

And money makes you more entitled. It makes you different than it gives you things other people's other people can't have. Like if you go to Disney World, are you going to spend $700 so that you can cut all the lines when you have little kids? Is that, is that a great message? For your kids.

[Tara Palmeri]

Now you're thinking, but do you remember when they were hiring handicapped people to help them cut lines? I broke that story for the New York Post. But these Upper east side moms were literally hiring handicap people. That. What kind of lesson is that to your child?

[Holly Peterson]

I mean, it's, it's insane, right? And there's a million studies. I love this. I love this fact. A million studies prove in equal and opposite reaction, your empathy goes down as you get more money. Why does that happen? Yeah, because there's more and more and more. Like you're never satisfied, right? Like you have a boat. But wouldn't it be great to have a chaser boat where you could like put staff and you know, those ski, skidoo things, whatever people ski on in the water, Jet skis, you know, and so greedy people get greedier, unfortunately, and they lose their empathy because they have more and they want more. Why does that happen? I don't know. It's Shakespearean. I mean, this is what literature is about. Why do people who have more care less and lose their empathy? It makes no sense, but in a lot of instances it's true.

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, it's true. I mean, we wouldn't have a fashion industry without it. We wouldn't have, like, there are so many industries that live off of this kind of opulence, right? And it's been around forever.

[Holly Peterson]

And that's part of the American dream, right? That's part of the great part of America, right?

[Tara Palmeri]

Is. Is.

[Holly Peterson]

Is being more and willing to be sweaty. I was talking to Plum Sykes, who's a pretty well known writer from England. She wrote for Vogue a lot this morning and she was saying, you know, aspiration and sweating is not okay in England. And it's true in a lot of European kind of fancy classes, having to try to do something is seen as like lower class somehow.

[Tara Palmeri]

It is. They don't work. If you actually work as a doctor, you're still a working class person. As a, as journalist, we are working like because you. Because you work. Because they don't, you know, the money people just have assets. But yeah, I do. The thing that's still like that strikes me is the culture of silence around all of it. Like, I mean, once you got something from Jeffrey or you got. I mean that everything that I learned from the survivors and from really digging into the case files is that when they went through his home for the first raid back In, I think 2005, they found tons of fluoroids all over the walls. Young girls. It was, it Was clear that this man was perverted. And I think when you look, when you walk into his home. So I just feel like there's something off about that to me, you know, there. It's like I've gone into like you, Holly. Like I've been to houses and places as a reporter. That just skeeved me out. I've had to talk to gross people for stories. Like, there's no doubt about that. I just like the chumminess that you cover. Yeah, I mean I do it every day, basically. Yeah. But you know, the chumminess of it all the silence around it, that's the part that gets me like, that really gets me. Like when I read the emails between Michael Wolf and Jeffrey Epstein and he's like, you have to suck it up to spit it out. And I'm like, well, when were you gonna spit it out? You know, like. Yeah, you were sucking it for a real long time, Michael. And also you wanted him to buy New York magazine with you and Harvey Weinstein at one time. You know, it was like you clearly. And you're giving him public relations advice and you're a journalist and yet you're even being silent about Jeffrey Epstein and everything that is so clearly going on there. That's odd. So I don't know, how do you explain the culture of silence among this class of accomplishers, Nouveau riche, whatever you want to call them.

[Holly Peterson]

I don't really use the word nouveau riche because that's like somehow like you. I don't know. That means like tacky, right? Doesn't it mean like, like there should thing like that? These, these are self made people who made a lot of money. Right. And hugely accomplished people that work in philanthropy and foundations and publishing houses and all of this. The culture of silence. I, you know, I can't answer that. I have no idea. I mean, I. Human nature is always evil the more you have. But I did do an essay talking about the networks that help each other among this group of people.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

And it's, it's such an understanding and parts of it are nefarious. It's not 14 year old girls usually. It's usually like giving someone an unfair up, as I was saying earlier, that keeps these people kind of protecting each other and bonded. I mean it's basically the worst of the worst of one's assumptions about people who have more than. Right. That there's the 1% that got it all illegally, that got it all in bad ways, that don't care about anyone else, that have lost all Their empathy and the Jeffrey Epstein story fascinates all of us because it basically proves that right? And I remember in college once I had this great philosophy professor and we were marching for all kinds of things, of people's rights and civil rights. And he said, why is it better? Why is it better to have civil rights? Why is that better? And we realized society is a chain, right? And you have a weak link and everyone goes down. Right? So if you have this 1% having everything and 99% of society with less than and not enough and not two cars and not care for the children and not good medical care and not good anything going on, it ruins all of society, right? And why there isn't more? Let's help each other. Among the most wealthy is just a Shakespearean. I don't know. I really don't know. I don't have an answer. But I will say from the inside, because I've been afforded proximity to this. There's a voraciousness and a rapacious ambition that, that blinds people. And I have seen that in action because you get something you really, really, really want. I mean, you speak about Brad Karp, you know, he also wanted golf club memberships. And you know how men are with their golf. Like they'll do anything to play golf, right? So, I mean, would have dinner at a gross person's house if it would get them lifelong membership into a club. Me, it's a great thing. I'm just trying to explain why.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right, yeah. Not fair. Like, I guess it makes sense. Like it, you know, I don't know, it seems.

[Holly Peterson]

But human nature is complex, right? So not every single person is a rapaciously ambitious evil soul. Right. There's a lot of wealth. I mean, the system of American philanthropy is, is astoundingly generous and bigger than any other country on the planet.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

Build museums.

[Tara Palmeri]

Is it because of the tax write offs, though?

[Holly Peterson]

It is because. Tax write offs, Yes, I was about to say that. Of course it is. But nonetheless it works, right? So there are people with money who give inordinate percentages of their money to help others and don't need it and don't want it and don't spend it. And there was something called the Giving Pledge a while back where, you know, anyone who was really, really rich who had made a lot of money just said right away, once they hit a certain number, half of it at least, we're giving away. And I noticed these techie guys don't do that. The giving pledge has kind of gone away. And so, you know, there's still a lot of giving in America, so there's some. There's some good efforts amongst these people.

[Tara Palmeri]

But I do love some of the more ridiculous charities, like, you know, Save the Sea Turtles or, you know, save many other things, but still, I guess, sea turtles, we need them, right? They're cute. But there are probably a lot of humans that could use, too.

[Holly Peterson]

But there's a lot of charities, and there's a lot of ways to help people with the tax system that's advantageous to that and that. And that is a good thing. And they're also a ton of people I know in New York with means, without means, with power, without power, who would never in a million years go. So I don't know about you, but I don't want to walk around saying, you know, everybody who was invited went, that's just way too depressing. I like to think would have gone. And I like to think, you know, the hundred people that I'm closest to wouldn't have gone either. And I. And I pretty much would choose to believe that.

[Tara Palmeri]

You know, a friend of mine said she asked her boss, you know, did you ever go to Epstein's house? Because he was a big hedge fund guy and he said he just had heard that he was shady and he never went there. So, you know, there are a lot of people I've heard the same thing where they're like, he was a shady guy, but everyone else I know is just staying up all night typing names into J mail into the DOJ to see if they can find people they know in the Epstein files.

[Holly Peterson]

I would love to be how many people were invited and said no versus how many people were invited and said yes, actually, to his house?

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, it's a good question. I thought that the last line of your piece was brilliant, and I want to get to that. But first, you have met Jeffrey Epstein. You know, Ghislaine Maxwell, which we talked about on Power of the Maxwells. She showed up at your book party in bright pink for one of the.

[Holly Peterson]

When.

[Tara Palmeri]

When was this book party? Back in 2014 maybe, or 2015.

[Holly Peterson]

I wrote four kind of saucy novels about this set, and they all came up like, yeah, 27 to 27 to 2015 maybe, something like that. You know, if you were my age, which I'm not going to say exactly, but call it late 50s ish, and you were out and about in New York. A lot of people I know knew Ghislaine Maxwell. I mean, she was just everywhere. She made it her business to show up at anything.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

She's one of those women, you would say she'd show up at the opening of an envelope. I mean she went to book parties, she did several laps a night at museum openings. I mean she was just everywhere, all the time. And she just zeroed in on people around the room to connect with them. Right. Not for the sex thing, but just to kind of know everyone. That's how she operated.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

And so a lot of us knew her. She was kind of crazy and charming and unhinged. You know, there was something, she was trying to save the oceans. She would sit down and say, I'm. What are you doing? Yeah, you know, it's like, what are you talking about? Right? You know, I mean, you're working to help what, like you're not saving the ocean single handedly. So she was definitely odd and out there. I never met Jeffrey Epstein, but I remember I was in a room with him and he was a creepy, creepy dude in the corner in a gray tracksuit. Not a tracksuit, like an Adidas or Nike big sweatpants and hoodie type of thing. And I think that's just a narcissistic kind of attention getting screw you to the hosts. And the other people at the party are dressed in jackets and ties like I don't need to, I don't need to wear anything. I can show up in my pajamas. I'm so important.

[Tara Palmeri]

Right.

[Holly Peterson]

And it's kind of a diss on everyone else. And apparently he did that all the time. I never talked to him, but if I did, it's fun to think what

[Tara Palmeri]

I. I have a feeling you wouldn't have held back. Picking the right medical coverage is stressful. So if you or someone you love is on Medicare, you really need to pay attention here because it's confusing at times and I actually think it's on purpose. Well, Chapter has unbiased independent Medicare advisors that are salary based on. They're not looking to waste your time. In fact, they can scan through tons of plans in under 20 minutes and they'll tell you if the one you have is the right one or if you can save money as much as eleven hundred dollars. That's the average that people save. And the best part is it's totally free. It's a great way to find a plan that fits your needs. So for free and unbiased Medicare help, dial 305-515-5237 to speak with my trusted partner chapter or go to ask chapter.org I've thought a lot about Glenn and how she acted, based on my reporting and the fact that, you know, for the 50th birthday she put together this book and it was very kind of highly sexualized. In the 40th birthday, she had a friend of her sing a raunchy song in front of all of these elite people about how Jeffrey Epstein had 24 hour erections and had these school girls that he chased around. And actually you can listen to the song here, but, you know, I thought about it and it's.

[Holly Peterson]

What year is that?

[Tara Palmeri]

The 40th birthday. His 40th birthday? Yeah, yeah. When would he have been 40? Well, that was before he was arrested or he. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So before he.

[Holly Peterson]

Yeah, I think I met.

[Tara Palmeri]

Anyway.

[Holly Peterson]

Gone.

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, yeah. So this is. Maybe I should start from the top again. So I've thought about it and how Glenn Maxwell was certainly grooming the elites around her, not just the girls. When you think about the fact that, you know, she had them submit these cards for the 50th birthday and they were all sort of raunchy and referencing his sexual proclivities. And then the 40th birthday, which I learned, she had a song written for him about his 24 hour erections and his love of schoolgirls. And she had that sung in front of a lot of very elite people. And it sort of reminds me that this was a. A grooming of society to think that this is normal in some ways, you know, that this is this kind of activity. I mean, I, I heard that she would walk up to people and just talk about sex openly. And she was very kind of provocative. And this was her MO, really was that she tried to make. She tried to. Maybe she thought she was helping people drop their guard around Epstein or around them. And this, in this lifestyle they live. Did you get the feeling that she was sort of grooming the people around her to be okay with their behavior?

[Holly Peterson]

Dark jump the shark. You know, she's one of those people that you talk to her and you're kind of like, oh, she's charming, she's British, she knows the royals. You know, this is assuming you don't know about the whole Jeffrey Epstein thing, but she's kind of intriguing and funny and kind of weirdly a little too warm. And then she'll say something that just jumps the shark that's a little off and then just suddenly that colors the whole way you see her. You know, you see her in a new light where it's just like there's something about you that is missing a barometer on understanding conversation, understanding how you sound in the conversation. And so she was odd that way. There was no question. There weren't people that were just like, oh, my God, she's amazing. I mean, if they. There were, they were not very thoughtful people. But to me, she was someone who was alluring, amusing, and kind of do your seven minutes at a cocktail around her and gracefully exit. You know, you don't want to, like, be hanging out.

[Tara Palmeri]

This is the song that Ghislaine Maxwell's friend Christopher Mason wrote and sang aloud for Jeffrey Epstein at his 40th birthday.

[Holly Peterson]

He wakes when the cock crows While everyone slumbers he rivals Einstein when he's crunching those numbers.

[Tara Palmeri]

Taught Martha Dalton, the naughty boy blushes to think of schoolgirls and all of their crushes. Very creepy. Holly. I love the last line of the piece and I want to read it for everyone. It's. It's interesting and, and it's a good point that's never really been made before, that compared to the people he. He lured into his lair, Epstein never accomplished anything. And I thought that was a really smart point, if that is, that he wasn't in fact, working for Mossad. Did you ever think to yourself that maybe he was working for intelligence agencies?

[Holly Peterson]

I look back and think about a lot of things at the time. You know, I met him, it was before 2008, and I've never understood so much about him. We know what. To this day, no one understands how he made his money. But one thing's for sure, you know, he wanted to be. My theory is, you know, he invited all these people, he manipulated all these people because he wanted to be one of them, right? He wanted to be viewed as equal to one of them. He wanted to be, in essence, someone who was in the black book of Ghislaine and other wealthy and connected successful people's contacts, right? The accomplisher class, as I call it. But he wasn't. And it could have been one of the roots of his hostility and anger and evil nature that he was burning with some fury, knowing that everyone around him had succeeded in these gargantuan ways by running Random House or running this network or being a news anchor, being a banker running a huge law firm, you know, and he never had anything to show, right? He wasn't equal to any of them. He never did anything. He never accomplished anything. Right? And we live in a society where it's perfectly visible what somebody does, right? Even if you're a hedge fund person, people know exactly what fees you're getting. You know exactly how much money you have under management. You can calculate how much they're making a year based on the partners. You know, investment bankers are helping certain clients to get funding for R and D or whatever. I mean, doctors are working on this. We know what each other is doing. There's not many people running around American society and going to dinner parties where we're like, who the hell are you and what have you done and why are you so rich? And nobody, nobody knows one thing. I mean, maybe some oligarch, but even the oligarchs we know, they were given Stalichnaya vodka. They were given the equivalent of Amtrak, you know, I mean, they were given these huge state industries to own and run personally. But it's very hard to think of a person who is anyone of consequence like him, who had the power to gather so many people, who to this day, with the ink and the time and the sweat of reporters and victim advocates and lawyers spent on this story, we still have no idea how he got all that money. I happen to think it was Robert Maxwell's money. I happen to think it was Ghislaint's father's money, but that he had.

[Tara Palmeri]

Les Wexner gave him a lot of money.

[Holly Peterson]

Yeah, he had whirled away eland who was his favorite and the youngest, and he gave it to Jeffrey to kind of, here's 500 mil, invest it, deal with it. You can spend a bunch of it, but. But give a ton, as much as you can to Ghislaine.

[Tara Palmeri]

I mean there. I do know from, you know, talking to people around Glenn at the time, she would get really upset and felt that she couldn't leave Epstein. And I wondered if he held money over her and that was part of it.

[Holly Peterson]

I have always felt absolutely sure of that. I don't believe he made all this money from Les Wexner and Leon Black, who obviously overpaid him for some reasons that we still don't understand. Whether it was bribing them to be quiet or he actually thought they gave good tax advice, I don't know. But I do think Robert Maxwell had some extra money. I think Lynn was his favorite. He named his, his boat the Lady Ghislaine when he had eight other kids or whatever it is. And what I've seen about these men in New York who have a lot of money, they're just not generous dudes. They may give a museum because it helps them tax wise and it helps their own and they get their self aggrandizer to have it. Yeah, but they don't give their girlfriends 13 million dollar townhouses filled with Botero paintings in it. It just doesn't happen if they're not even married. Yeah, right. That's just trafficking so much money.

[Tara Palmeri]

Unless she's trafficking girls for him and she's working for him, which she was, well, 20, right.

[Holly Peterson]

20 years ago. 13 million dollar townhouse is a crazy amount of money. Right. That's like 40 today or 50. You don't just buy some chick you're dating that. So I think that was, that was funneling perhaps. I mean, how was he funneling? Why was he funneling. Because it was her daddy's money.

[Tara Palmeri]

Well, I do recommend that everyone. Yeah. On top of after you read Holly's story, there is a great piece out in the, in the New York Times. It's called How Epstein Helped solve. Hold on one second. A Billionaire's Problems with Women. The Wall street titan Leon Black paid Jeffrey Epstein $170 million for what he said was tax and estate work. But his services went beyond that and that included paying women regularly and to give them million dollar gifts to avoid taxes.

[Holly Peterson]

Obviously. I think we've got a lot of, of room to grow on this story.

[Tara Palmeri]

I think we, I think there's a

[Holly Peterson]

lot of money, British state secrets. And I mean, I just think this is going to keep going. So keep up the good work.

[Tara Palmeri]

Tammy, thanks. Great to have you on the show as always and thanks for giving us that valuable insight and perhaps helping me wrap my head around things that I've been struggling with myself. So thanks. That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri Show. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please like subscribe rate Follow Share this with all of your friends. Head to Tara Palmeri.com read my exclusive reporting. I really get into the nitty gritty details. I spent my weekend calling around trying to find out what's really happening in Washington and I want to deliver it to you. But you can help support me and my mission by going to tarapaulmarie.com, signing up for the Red Letter newsletter. It's a way to support my independent journalism. I want to thank my producer, Dan Schiffmacher, Abby Baker, who does my booking production. She does social media. She's everywhere. And Adam Stewart, who handles my thumbnails. And Dan Rosen, my manager. Thanks again for tuning in. Foreign.

[Tamsen Fadal]

Hi, I'm Tamsen Fadal, journalist and author of how to Menopause and host of the Tamsen Show, a weekly podcast with your roadmap to midlife and beyond. We cover it all from dating to divorce, aging to adhd, sleep to sex, brain health to body fat, and even how perimenopause can affect your relationship. And trust me, it can. Each week I sit down with doctors, experts and leaders in longevity for unfiltered conversations packed with advice on everything from hormones to happiness and, of course, how to stay sane during what can be well, let's face it, a pretty chaotic chapter of life. Think of us as your midlife survival guide. New episodes released every Wednesday. Listen now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.