B (2:47)

Yeah, I think you hit on it and they never admit to it, but I think it's all about pressure from President Trump. I think quite frankly, folks are afraid and they're afraid of political problems, they're afraid of personal problems. By the way, these guys are running the country like a bunch of mobsters. And I just think they're afraid. I think it's really unfortunate. I think with good leadership on the Republican side of the Senate anyway, and I think the House, too, quite frankly, they could protect our democracy and release information needs to be released and keep the government operating and not have a government shutdown. But that's not the agenda. The agenda right now of the Republican Party is try to tell people how to live and create chaos. That's what I've seen the last nine months. And it's. And I think right now, with the Epstein files as a prime example, somebody who made promises, President Trump, about releasing the information and coming clean with all this stuff, somebody got to him and said, no, you can't do that. If you do that, you know, I don't know who it is. You might know, Tara, I don't know if it's the donors. I don't know if it's Congress people. I don't know. But somebody that has a lot of power has walked into the president's office, said, we don't want any of this information out there. This information could be devastating to us for whatever reasons, all that are bad. And, and so consequently, you know, you've got folks that are saying, no, no, we're not going to, we're not going to do anything. But I think it's all based on being afraid of what Trump or some of the folks. And look, he's, he's totally politicized, the Department of Justice totally politicized that he's going after everybody under the sun from, you know, from Comey to Bolton to who knows who else. And I think they're afraid of all that.

A (4:43)

Yeah, I think from my reporting, I mean, obviously, the Justice Department, which never seems to ever look good, ever dropped the ball many, many times. And, you know, my reporting also shows that Epstein may have been useful to law enforcement intelligence. I mean, he started in the early 90s as an informant on a Ponzi scheme that he was a partner in. And he was the one who didn't go to prison for this $400 million Ponzi scheme at the time, the, the largest in history. He ended up skating off and being free. And yet his partner, Stephen Hoffenberg, spent the rest of his life in jail. And then, you know, I, based on my reporting, you know, speaking to a lawyer who interviewed his, his bodyguard, Igor Zinoviev, he said that he would, he got messages from Langley that he would have to give to Epstein, that's the CIA headquarters. And that not saying he's an agent or even, you know, a technically a source, but someone who may have been, you know, giving information to the agencies and having, getting a more favorable deal because of it. I think it shows the dark side of law enforcement that, you know, you don't always have a gun to your head when you're talking to the FBI or you're talking to, you know, other intelligence agencies like the CIA or MI6 or Mossad, that, that they can just find you to be useful because you're for high level contacts. If you're rolling in those circles, he certainly had information that would be valuable to, to these agencies. And I think that would also be part of it. But also we know that the women, the survivors that they have accused, very high profile men, some of them politicians, names that have already come out there, like Senator George Mitchell of sexual abuse, Virginia Giuffre did that, and Bill Richardson, she put that in her deposition. But a lot of the names are also redacted. So there are questions about, you know, who else is behind those redacted names. And it's not just her, there are tons of others. And so I think, I've never thought of President Trump to be one to cover for himself, for anyone outside of himself. But I do think, like, there is a web between these members, Trump and Epstein, because, you know, I, I was just reading in semaphore that a lot of members like Massie are getting pressure, political pressure from donors, etc. To drop this because the tentacles are everywhere. You know, I have a report coming out in a few hours about how.

C (7:27)

I was going to ask you about that. I want to hear, I want to hear what you can tell us about that.

A (7:31)

Yeah, yeah. So the, the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein are just furious. And when they saw that Lisa Murkowski was that deciding boat, when Schumer tried to put forward that bill to release the Epstein vials, one of them is an Alaskan and she just really took it personally and she was furious. And they feel very powerless. They feel like they've been ignored. And so what she did instead, she just started like digging into Murkowski and if she has any Epstein connections. And she found something that was really, really shocking to me. First of all, Glenn Maxwell's husband, Scott Borgeson, invests in the Arctic region and he's been on a number of panels with, with Lisa Murkowski over the years. He testified The Senate Foreign Relations Committee to argue to ratify the. The law of the Sea Treaty to expand the region around Alaska, which would obviously help her, help the commerce in Alaska, help the economy of the state. They've known each other since, I believe, 2008. They've appeared on panels together. He's moderated panels. She quotes him on her website. Then when Glenn started laundering her name through that Terramar fake ocean nonprofit, then Lisa Murkowski actually appeared on the same stages as Glenn Maxwell in their photographs for many years at the Arctic Circle forums in Reykjavik. In. In. There is another. I, I need to look at the actual notes, but this will all be in my report that comes out. But it details, you know, a. A, A relationship that maybe people didn't know that she, you know, and I'm not saying she necessarily voted for that, but it should. Shirley P. Discloser that she. That she had a relationship with Glenn Maxwell's husband and even appeared speaking at the same events at Glenn Maxwell. And this was after she was known as like the partner to a sex offender. And she was named by. By Virginia Giuffre. This is in the 2010s, 2014, 2013. You know, this was when it was no secret about what Galen Maxwell was up to. And in a way, this, this senator is laundering the name of a sex offender. I'm sorry, but like Senator Tester, I would think that your office would tell you like, hey, that recce, that Arctic Circle event, there's a person that's going to speak and she has been accused of being a sex offender.

B (9:58)

So, you know, I mean, for full disclosure, a senator and probably a House member too. You get put on the stage with. Sometimes you get put on stage with somebody that you find out afterwards was not a good person at all two years ago if there were multiple times. Yeah, right. Her office didn't do their job or, or she knew about it. One or the other. Yeah, yeah. If this went on over, because the truth is, I can't remember what the instance was. It was, it was no big deal. I was actually supposed to go on stage with somebody. I was on a panel with somebody and my staff said, you can't do this. You just can't do this. This dude's a bad.

C (10:39)

Was it me? It wasn't me. Was it.

B (10:43)

One of the times that. Most of the time they told me not to go on stage with you, but this is one of the times somebody else. But so, I mean, that kind of stuff happens. It just happens because people want you to speak at Forums. So you go up and do it, but if it happens repeatedly, either you knew it or somebody on your staff screwed up big time.

A (11:03)

Well, I just think her relationship with Scott Borgeson was so long standing her, the husband of Glenn Maxwell, and that he had really. He had a lot of economic interests in the region. And I felt that like, from, and not just this. Glenn Maxwell is very good friends with the publisher of the Alaska Dispatch, which is a very influential paper. Alice Rogoff is this philanthropist who donated to Senator Murkowski as well. And this is one of Galen's very good friends who flew around a Cessna, who took her to all these, you know, sledding events. Like, there's just so many connections. And, you know, it would be. There's the donor connection, there's the husband connection. I mean, this is someone, someone she's still technically married to. People forget this, that Glenn Maxwell was arrested while being married to a man who had three children, and that he worked in shipping and Arctic shipping. That he was. They were both invested in this, like, in this water conservation.

B (12:03)

I don't, I, I. Look, what is, is what is. And, and I wish you'd wanted to release it, but it. I'm gonna. I. It isn't like Lisa Murkowski's getting rich off of this. Why would she? She isn't. Like she went down to the island. I doubt very much, no. Why not just come clean? Why not just. Why not just release the information? Because the truth is, is that what would be bad about voting to release it even if you had a relationship? Look, I've got a lot of friends that aren't friends with me now because I did the right thing in public service. And that's just the way it has to be. Why not vote to. To. To do what you gotta do?

A (12:43)

Well, I think. Exactly. I agree with you. Not every business person you come across is going to be reputable. Right. The only thing with this is that they were literally on the same stage together. And, and, and Galen was laundering her name through this, you know, Paramar Ocean charity. And I do think that Scott Borges was a valuable, a valuable business person in the Alaska community. And I think. And maybe it was just bad judgment and maybe there's nothing more than that, and it may just be the surface level, but why did, why did she go from release all the files to, you know, it's for the best, for the girls. If we do it through the House Oversight Committee behind closed doors, deciding what will come out, what don't, and what doesn't. Come out well.

C (13:31)

And I think you're. You're onto something about Tara. Like, it's not. It's not just her. Right. We thought. We've seen it with. So how many people. Cash Patel, Pam Gandhi, all of these people who now suddenly like, oh, well, yeah, no, that. That. It's not an issue now. Like, we, you know, I think the.

A (13:49)

Fact that she was the deciding vote was what was really so upsetting. And the fact that she said it before, like, just released the files, and she's not the only one. There are others. And. And the. The survivors of Jeffrey Epstein are going to start trying to, like, dig up facts on the others as well, because, you know, donors, there are all so many relationships. And, like, I actually think Senator, Congressman Massie really nailed it when he said this story, even though it's kind of using Trump's own phrase on it. It's about draining the swamp because there's so much power and money tied up in this story, and, And. And. And to really release everything it would. This is about draining the swamp.

B (14:30)

So, Tara, can I just ask, You've been covering this story forever, right?

A (14:33)

Yeah.

B (14:34)

Why? Is there something. Look, I don't. I'm not a victim, and I'm not even close to being a victim, so I can't put myself in their shoes, but why don't they just come out and say, you know, this is a person that come and took advantage.

C (14:49)

I think they're talking about it, right?

A (14:50)

No. Okay, I'll. I can explain this.

B (14:53)

Yeah. Did they have to sign an agreement or was. Why not? Why not? If they're not gonna release it, why don't the victim just start talking?

A (15:00)

Okay, so I'll give you a perfect example of why they don't. Look at Virginia Giuffre. She's now dead. She killed herself by suicide. She not only went through, you know, a horrific life of sexual assault under Jeffrey Epstein, but then she suffered the re. Like the secondary abuse of having society doubt her, disbelieve her, choose to side with men in power over her. She had to go through a brutal defamation suit against. Against Alan Dershowitz. They settled, but it was so taxing and wearing on her. She was dragged through the mud. And these women are actually terrified of the men that are. That were in Epstein's orbits because they're not afraid of you. They're not going to hold back from using intimidation tactics. In fact, many of them right now are trying to get these women to stop speaking. Speaking. They will take them to court, and they Will these women will have to spend the rest of their lives defending their choice to say that name out loud? Because they will sue them for defamation, and that's a huge burden to put on them. And that's why they're like, just put out our depositions, put out the files, and then you'll know what we're talking about and we'll be protected by what we said under oath. But if just to say those names out loud, they will spend the rest of their lives. And even as journalists, like, there's a huge fear factor because it's not like we don't know the names. I mean, we know some of them, but the names that are redacted, like in Virginia Giuffre's files, those are men that spent probably a million dollars more than that to keep their names redacted from those files.

C (16:49)

Tara, I want to ask you more about that because I've seen some of the survivors say, hey, we do know names, and if they don't do this, we will. So I know that there are some out there who have said that. And then you were talking in an interview that I saw this week about how they might start kind of playing the political game that we see so many lawmakers play and actually start doing oppo research on the lawmakers who are voting against are voting to keep this stuff secret. So tell us more about that. Like, is that going to happen? Are we going to start seeing, like, oppo research come out on some of these lawmakers who are voting against releasing the files?

A (17:30)

Yeah, definitely. You're gonna see that. I think, like, you're, you're seeing them really dig into, like, what are the connections, what are the threads to Epstein that some of these people might have. I think when it comes to releasing the files, you know. Sorry, you were saying when it comes to saying the names out loud, they. Yes, Lisa was out there and she's like, we're gonna put our own list together. This is Lisa Phillips, one of the survivors. A lot of the others were like, I can't believe she just said that. Oh my God. She put. They were like, great, great. I mean, people, these people have faced break ins at their homes, private eyes, private investigators trying to run them off the road. Just general. Wealthy men coming to them, being like, you want to settle NDA on a. Like, you know.

C (18:23)

And that happens right now. Wealthy men coming from saying, oh my gosh.

A (18:28)

Yeah, no, it's happening. It's like, this is, this is a lots on the line. You know what I mean? Right now and, and I think especially when people who you're used to seeing have, generally have control over everything in their lives, feeling like they don't have control over it. And it just feels like the genie's out of the bottle. Like, I don't think this. You can put this back in. I mean, what's your sense, Senator Tester? Like, do you sense that this is going away?

B (18:53)

I don't think the story goes away. You can, you can do all you want to pivot all. You can pivot on all sorts of stuff and the President's master at pivoting. But I don't. I don't think the story goes away. I don't think it ever goes away. It's kind of like Kennedy's assassination. I don't think it goes away, period, until information comes out and people understand what's happening. The thing that's totally bizarre, ironic, whatever word you want to use here, is that when the President was running for President, this is one of the things he said, I'm going to do. When he walked through the door, he released the Kennedy information, but nothing on Epstein, nothing. Which shows up all sorts of red flags about, what do you got to hide? I mean, why is this something that you're going to say that, you know, the government's just a deep state and now you're doing exactly what you're accusing the deep state to do, and that's withholding information that people want to know?

A (19:49)

Yeah. No, I think you're right. I guess I want our listeners to understand what are the chances that this actually survives in the Senate? I think it's just going to die in the Senate. Right?

C (20:01)

Yeah, I want to. Let's talk about that a little bit, because I read two stories that kind of happened late last night and overnight, and one is that this special election in Arizona basically put the House, gave the House the vote it needed to push us for a vote. And that's the thing. Like, what's going to happen once it goes to the Senate if they do that? Like, what's going to happen and does it have a chance of passing through the Senate? I don't know. So I'm excited to read your piece today, Tara, to kind of unravel this a little bit more. But also this new reporting from the Wall Street Journal, basically describing the panic in the White House right now because of that special election, because the House might have the votes now. And someone said the President commented about how people just don't understand how Palm beach was in the 90s. It was a different time. What do you hear about that chaos happening in the White House, Tara? I know you have so many in this town.

A (21:04)

Yeah. You know what? This might be a good time to switch over to substack. Do you want to do that and we'll continue that, or do you want to stay here on YouTube?

B (21:14)

We can switch. It's your call, man.

C (21:16)

Yeah, we could also. We can also post things.

A (21:19)

Yeah, okay. We can also post this on substack. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

C (21:22)

Okay. So here's.

A (21:23)

Here's what I'm always told for my White House sources. The staff just knows, like, do not bother him with this. Don't even ask. It is a taboo subject in the White House. Epstein. So I would assume, you know, whenever I am speaking to a source or a spokesperson for the White House, they actually have zero information. They're afraid of him. And talking to him about Epstein. Wall Street Journal also had some reporting about Trump's reaction to the birthday card. And apparently, according to the Wall Street Journal, he called Rupert Murdoch. He's like, I'm going to kill this myself. He called, you know, he called. What was it, Emma Tucker, who's the editor in chief, and he said, like, this is bullshit. I'm gonna sue you. And. And that. And he kept going. But, you know, it's. They said they've never seen him like this about any other topic, and. Yeah. Yeah.

C (22:34)

Do you think that this is. I mean, you know, they call him Teflon Trump for a reason.

A (22:39)

Right.

C (22:40)

Like, I remember when he first ran in 2016. I will. I clearly remember seeing the Access Hollywood tape. And in the old political rules, that would have been it. Right. That would have been it for anybody. And he survives a lot of these things that would have just killed the political careers of so many others. But it seems to me that Jeffrey Epstein, and this continues to just come back. This is the one story that just will not go away for him. And then I wanted to ask you, too. I mean, we saw this week. I didn't get down there to see it, but we saw the statue on the mall in D.C. you know, the golden gilded statue of Trump and Epstein holding hands. And people are trying to keep this story alive, but I also wonder what that does, like, when the survivors see things like that. Right. Because it makes for good fodder and it keeps the story alive. But I'm sure it's also really painful for them to see Jeffrey Epstein's face everywhere.

A (23:43)

Yes and no. Because I do think that they feel like they were ignored and if this is just the, the what they have to deal with to get that, to keep the story alive. Sure, sure. Like they'll keep his face out there. They want the story out there. They don't want this to go away. And so if, if that means, yes, there's a statue which is freedom of speech. And it was dismantled.

C (24:07)

It was dismantled, yeah. Before I saw it.

A (24:10)

Yeah, exactly. Quickly dismantled. I think that they, you know, they feel that it's fine. It's interesting to me because I think a lot of people forget that the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein really believed Trump when he said that he was going to release the files. Virginia Giuffre told me that she said that Elon Musk direct, direct message her on X and said that he was going to release the files. And a lot of them are conservative. They are kind of like some of them are your very typical Trump voter. And they, they were hopeful. And so it's not just that he let his MAGA base down. He let down a lot of women who thought, okay. Because a lot of administrations have ignored them since going back to 1996, when the earliest report that we know of was when Maria Farmer called the FBI in 1996 to report that she and her sister had been molested on the Zorro Ranch by Jeffrey Epstein. But before that, I mean, but after that, it's been decades of, of being ignored all the way to the highest levels. Like that sweetheart deal was under George W. Bush, and it went all the way to the Attorney General of the United States office when they dealt with that. And guess who the lawyers were? Ken Starr and Jay Lefkowitz and Alan Dershowitz. So, you know, this has always been a very high level story. And there, the survivors just feel like every administration has covered up for them. And they only saw action in the Trump administration fairly, in fairness. Like, you know, Epstein was arrested in 2019, Galen was actually prosecuted. So they thought, okay, this is someone who will actually do the right thing. But perhaps, you know, he didn't know the full story. He didn't feel like he had control of the Justice Department. He didn't realize how far he was implicated. Because I do think there is this feeling that Trump has, or he's almost invincible. Right?

C (26:08)

Yeah, well, he said, he said he is. He said he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it. But I mean, how does. So here's the question I have when you say that, because yes, stuff happened under the first Trump administration that felt like justice, but then Jeffrey Epstein dies in you know, in a, In a cell during that time. So I feel like it's there, There are pieces on both sides of saying, like, well, how, how was that allowed to happen under that doj?

A (26:37)

Absolutely. I mean, there's no doubt that, that maybe it was easier to arrest him. You know, I'm not going to say that, like, I have the answer to whether Jeffrey Epstein was killed or not in prison. I, I tend to side on, on. I, I believe that he was killed because I just having done so much reporting on him, he was a narcissist, he was a sociopath, psychopath, and he, Those people don't kill themselves. He thought he was going to get out of jail. He thought he was to pull some more strings again.

B (27:12)

So. And this is the question you've probably been asked 9,000 times, but Maritza brought it up. Trump has been able to do anything, and people have forgiven him. Why this? Why this one? Does he think he can't release any information? Because, like she said, I mean, we can go down the list. And most of it is stuff that, quite frankly, I don't care. If you're in public office, you'd never get away with it. And if you're in public office, you'd absolutely be disqualified. But why is he afraid of this one?

A (27:47)

Well, first of all, I think pedophilia is one of the most disgusting crimes of all of them.

B (27:51)

You're right. But everybody assumes that happened. I mean, I do. I assume that that happened. I mean, I mean, I don't think that's beyond imagination.

A (28:01)

I don't think. Could Americans forgive that?

C (28:06)

I've seen videos, Tara, of people, of, of people being asked, like, what if he did this? What if he did this? And they always say, well, no, I would still support him. I, I have seen videos of people addressing this very question. And they say, yeah, I'm with him.

B (28:21)

I, you know, so originally I thought it was what you said, Tara, pedophilia. I thought he doesn't want his. He doesn't want any pictures, doesn't want none of that out.

A (28:32)

It's embarrassing. Even the cards, you know?

B (28:34)

Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. Look, I mean, but I think what he did in front of the UN Was embarrassing. He does embarrassing all the time. This is a different level of embarrassment. I agree. But, but, but the bottom line is, is that he said he tends to get away with anything he does from a personal basis. And so I thought, well, what the hell, Maybe it is the donors. Maybe it is this web of incredible, incredibly powerful people in this country that have put the screws to him. Maybe it's his donor base. Maybe. I mean, maybe it's the. The billionaires that fund his campaign that do it. I just. I just don't understand why this is the one. I don't get it.

A (29:17)

Yeah, I think you're right that there's a network, but I think it's also like just kind of held together by a handshake and a string. It's really crazy. I mean, what. I mean, you were. You must have talked to your colleagues about Epstein while you were in office. Like, what did you hear?

C (29:33)

Never.

B (29:33)

I'm gonna tell you. It never. In 18 years, it never came up. And this is honest to God truth, as I'm saying.

A (29:39)

Even your constituents, like, even the more maga constituents.

B (29:43)

No, no, they. They. They didn't. I mean, they. They really didn't.

A (29:49)

Okay.

B (29:49)

And I think most of it is the fact that, you know, I mean, I live in a very rural part of the country. I mean, you got. Do your job. You got it. And I just don't think it was on the radar screen until. Until it started coming up nationally. It didn't. It didn't come up during Bush or Obama or until. Until Epstein committed suicide or was killed, however you want to look at it. Did. Did this start coming up on people's radar screens? In my world, let's just put it that way.

A (30:18)

Yeah. Well, I know, like, we know Epstein was a Democrat. He gave to a lot of Democrats. President Trump tried to use the Epstein connection between President Clinton against him in 2015 during the election. And Trump was a Democrat too then. I mean, at that point, donating to Hillary Clinton. Bill. Bill Clinton. He was giving Chuck Schumer, you know, checks. So this isn't it. He hung out with Democrats. Like, these were his people. They're very sensitive about any connection between Melania and Epstein. As you've seen. They sue. They will go crazy. And that is a. Like, I just had a. An author on the Red Letter substack, Andrew Lowney, and he. He's from the UK and his book was published in the uk and then they had edit out passages of the book in the second edition, and it was never really published in hard copy in the US despite being a bestseller. It's on Prince Andrew. It's called Untitled the Rise and Fall of the House of York, entitled. Excuse me, what is it? Untitled, I think it was entitled. Yeah, the Rise and Fall of the House of York. It was fascinating, but he said because he had drawn connections between Epstein and And Donald Trump, he said that Donald Trump was introduced to Melania through Epstein and that Epstein had been with Melania before Donald Trump. This is something that he alleged, something that Michael Wolf has said as well in his book, that it caused so many problems for the publishing house HarperCollins. You know, they removed it. Or, or it may have been. They've been. We're anticipating two more problems after Hunter Biden, after they threatened to sue Hunter Biden repeating this, the allegations that were made in, by Michael Wolf and in this book. So, yeah, there's a bit of a silencing aspect to all of this. Like, we don't know if it, if it, how close it gets to him. I personally had not heard that myself after doing my reporting. But that doesn't mean that, like, it doesn't mean that this is incorrect. You know what I mean? It's just they've been willing to. I mean, I know the law fair is just so out of control right now. Lawsuits are flying everywhere at all the time. So it's hard to say, oh, is it because of this? Worse because of it.

C (32:47)

And the thing is too, that, you know, we're seeing issues within the legal community, too, with law firms being threatened for taking up certain cases, too. So that, I think that plays into it. That's part of the conversation. Tara, I'm wondering, like, what's your instinct? You've worked in D.C. for a long time. You know this story well, you know politics well, you know the White House well. Do you think that, do you think we're going to see this pass Congress? I mean, do you think that we're actually going to see this come to fruition? Or do you think that it's just one more kind of link in the long, long, long chain that will never be answered?

A (33:29)

Okay, so maybe it'll pass the House. I don't know if it'll pass the Senate, but who knows? Maybe Murkowski will change her vote. But here's the thing, though. Even if it passes, do we really think that President Trump will then sign that bill on his desk? Do we really think that the d, The Department of Justice, will actually, in being compelled to release the Epstein files, actually do it? Will they release the files and they're just all redacted? Like what you see on the Epstein on the vault right now, like, if you go to.

C (34:00)

So then where does this, where does this go? Where does this go?

A (34:05)

In circles, honestly, or spinning in circles, but things are dribbling out. And I do think, I do think that there's a leak or a hack in Epstein's emails. And you saw that with Sarah Ferguson earlier this week, where they leaked an email. Well, first of all, you saw the leaks of Bloomberg, right. Bloomberg had a dump of Epstein emails leaked. And then you saw Sarah Ferguson, there was an email that was leaked of her calling Epstein a supreme friend and apologizing for calling him a pedophile after she publicly said that she was regretted being friends with this sex offender. He had just spent time in a county jail for procuring a minor for prostitution. And she said, I had to do it because of my children's work and my children's books. So clearly someone is leaking things out. And I think the more that the leaks come out, it's just going to be harder and harder for them to contain this story. I mean, the drip, drip, drip makes it worse in a lot of ways.

C (35:05)

Right. But it makes it worse for the survivors too, I think, like.

A (35:09)

Yeah, no, I think they're just created. Yeah.

B (35:13)

I, I, I just want to say a couple things to clear up for, for, for your, for your viewership. I worked with Lisa Murkowski a lot in the United States Senate, particularly my last term.

A (35:27)

Right.

B (35:28)

She, we worked together on the bipartisan infrastructure bill. We worked together on a lot of stuff. From my perspective, she truly is a decent person. She really, and I think for her to have skeletons in her closet that might cause her to vote a certain way is totally not something I've ever seen in Lisa Murkowski. Not something I've ever seen. Now, all that being said, when you're in public service, your life is an open book. It's just the way it is. There is no secrets. When you serve in the United States Senate or the House or governor or secretary of state or even the state legislature. There are no secrets. And so if there's some kind of thing going on here, I think the victims have to try to find it out.

A (36:23)

I just think it's a public embarrassment. And the fact that she would continue to launder the name of Glenn Maxwell, like, that's just not a good connection. It's like how Trump is like, calls her a good person.

B (36:33)

It's like, yes, but in that the launder, the name is not, it's not politically disqualifying is what I'm saying.

A (36:40)

No, it's not.

B (36:42)

There's not a lot of things there that's gonna say, well, you know, you talked about him like you had business. That kind of happens.

A (36:50)

And Right.

B (36:51)

So it, but it's much different than being A pedophile?

A (36:54)

No, I'm not saying she's a pedophile. No, no, I'm not.

B (36:57)

I'm not saying you are. But what I'm saying is from the perspective of the people who really don't want the information out, Lisa doesn't fall in that category in my book, but I could be wrong.

A (37:05)

But what's. And you just think she's just being. It's the pressure of Trump. I mean, she's been willing to vote against Trump before.

B (37:12)

Think it's the pressure of Trump. And I think she hates it, personally. I think she just despises having to do this shit.

C (37:18)

But here's.

B (37:21)

We saw with Joni Ernst. We've seen it with, with Tillis, although Tillis said, screw you, I'm going to do it anyway. We've seen it with so many people where the tremendous pressures put on them. And what I always say about the Republican caucus, if they get four or five of them together and just say, the hell with you, we're going to do the right thing, it would bust this whole cabal that's going on that I think is a cabal anyway in the United States Senate.

C (37:46)

So here's the question for both of you. You know, we know like in the Votoramas, right? How many amendments get added just to basically do purity tests on the parties and how people will vote on things. But this is not what this one is. This is not in a voterama. If this goes to the Senate and all of the Republicans vote against it to please Trump, what. What would the rationale be that they would tell their constituents? How would they justify that? Because this isn't just a, you know, a symbolic vote. This is actually to do something that the, the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse are calling for, that other people are calling for that, that we see some Republicans calling for now. So if they vote against it, what would the justification be when they go back home to their states?

A (38:36)

I mean, I think they're going to use the talking points that Speaker Johnson's given them. They've already voted against it at least one time, and they're. They use the same thing. We want to protect the victims and their identities, and we want to do this through the House Oversight Committee, where we think we'll get more information. The House Oversight Committee, like that didn't even want to call Acosta to begin with, hasn't called the lead Prosecutor on the 2008 case that actually worked on it because Acosta admitted he didn't even read the victim Statements. I mean, this is a sham, but it's, that's, that's what they're going to say. They're going to use those lines because actually, that's what Senator Murkowski's office gave me. I was like, well, why aren't you doing it? And then she also said she meets hundreds of people all the time. She doesn't know who they are. I think the HUDs, the relationship with the husband was closer than meeting somebody 100 times. She knew this guy really well. She quoted him, she invited him to council. Like they had a long standing thing where they were regularly on the speaking circuit together, but. And that's not to say that's why she won't release the files, But I've seen their statements. I've heard them speak. We've all heard them speak. I don't think it holds water. Not when you have the, the survivor saying, no, release the files.

B (39:46)

It doesn't hold water. And they know better. And they know when they're saying that, that it's a lie, and that's a fact. They know that this is a, this is a statement that they can make that take the pressure off of having to ask real difficult questions. But it's more, it's, it's, it. You know, there are some really, really, really religious people in the Republican caucus. Not all of them, some of them are right religious, but there's some really religious people there. What about them? What, what the. I mean, they're being judged. They're being judged.

A (40:15)

Aren't we all? Yeah, we are.

B (40:18)

And the truth is that they're, they're going to say, no, I'm gonna, I'm. I don't give a damn about these children who have been sexually molested because.

A (40:27)

I want to keep my job in Congress because I like to wear the pin. I'm sorry.

C (40:31)

Exactly.

B (40:32)

And I'm gonna myself, personally. Now, I might be a bit of an odd duck, and Rita will tell you I'm a bit of an odd duck, but being a senator was a great job, but it ain't the best job I've ever had, I'll tell you that. There's a lot better jobs out there than being a damn U. S. Senator.

A (40:47)

They hold on to it so tightly, though, and they'll give up their soul, which is like. I actually. Listen, I know Massey was on the way out. They were going to primary him. They were in. Torture him anyway. But to see him kind of ride off on a high horse is sort of amazing. Like, he's like I'm just gonna. I'm leaving this town. I'm gonna make it really uncomfortable. I'm gonna start. I'm gonna actually, like, plug a hole in your swamp right now on my way out.

C (41:14)

So here's the question that came up. We had an episode of Grounded with. With New York Times columnist Pulitzer winner Tom Friedman. And he said in that that he doesn't know how. You know, some of these people vote certain ways because they either don't have a mirror or a wife or a mother or a daughter. And that's the question I have, is that. That, you know, for people who. Who have a wife or a daughter, how can they think about their own child going through what these women went through as children?

A (41:51)

Yeah, I think that's not.

B (41:54)

Should I tell you, Maritza, why?

A (41:56)

Yeah.

B (41:59)

Because they don't think it'll ever happen to their kids.

A (42:01)

Exactly. There. It's a class issue. That's what I've always thought is sort of hovering over all of this. It's a class issue. It wasn't the girls on Palm Beach Island. It was the girls on the other side of the intercoastal. It was nobody's girls. And actually, that's the name of Virginia Giuffre's book, her memoir that's coming out. And it is so fitting, the title, because she was even dropped off at Epstein's house by her father. Like, you know, these are. These were kids that to get 300 for a massage was more than their dad's made in a week. And they had accepted, like, Epstein was like, you are a teenager prostitute. The police are coming for you. They're not coming for me. I'll give you a lawyer to protect you. They did not have safe homes. Predators choose easy prey. You know, they're going to go after the girls who came from the broken homes.

C (43:02)

Well, and Jasmine Crockett was on our. Was on our podcast, too, and she was talking about, you know, being in that meeting on with the oversight committee and hearing some of the testimony. She was telling us about, you know, one woman as a young girl, they threatened her with, you know, her. Her mother's cancer and not being able to get treatment and not being able to get money for that treatment. And that's. I mean, that's horrific.

B (43:29)

These guys are the lowest form of life. I mean, truthfully, they're. They're pieces.

A (43:34)

Yeah, no, I agree. And it's just the stories are, they'll find whatever it is that you're at, your vulnerability. But again, like, I would. I Interviewed this woman, Deborah Turkish Turk Turkheimer. And I actually really want to have her on my show too. She just explained how much there is just a credibility deflation for vulnerable women when they're up against powerful men. And there's a credibility inflation for men because powerful men because they. They're prestigious and they're famous and they don't look like monsters. And in this world that we live in like we do, the truth is we hang on to the status quo very tightly and we don't like disrupting factors. And there's the credibility bias. And onus is. The onus is on the women to prove that they are credible. And then they go out there and they say and they tell their story. Virginia did for a decade, over a decade, until the crown finally settled with her in a historic settlement with Prince Andrew. But for over a decade, she was smeared by the British press, called like a sex kitten and looking for a payday. And, you know, she had to deal with that. And who would want to put themselves out there?

C (44:52)

Yeah.

A (44:53)

Do that.

C (44:54)

And it's humiliating.

A (44:56)

Exactly. Yeah.

C (44:59)

Well, it's been, it's been great chatting with you today, Tara. And I know, thank you so much for your work. And I know, I see in the comments, I mean, people really give you so much credit for keeping the survivors names in the spotlight and their stories in the spotlight and at the top of this conversation. Because no matter how many times we talk about the Epstein files, it's always good to remember at the heart of this are women who were just young girls. Right. Who were just young girls. And we need to remember that this is about them and, and all of the other survivors and victims of abuse out there from other perpetrators and that this can be so hard to hear about and talk about and hear this continue to come up in the headlines when you're dealing with that maybe privately at home and nobody knows. And it's. It's a terrible, terrible thing. We need to keep the women and we need to keep them at top of mind.

A (46:00)

Yeah, I totally.

B (46:01)

I just want to say this, Tara, you've been doing this for a long time and keep doing it. Okay.

A (46:07)

Yeah, I hope it's. I hope that we, we get down to the bottom of it. Sometimes I'm like, what am I, is this, am I talking in circles?

B (46:14)

But you know, one thing is for certain. If the pressure goes away, the topic will go away.

A (46:22)

Yeah. That's for sure. That's good. That's a good point. They want this story to fall out of, you know, but I don't know that every day there's something more. You know, every day something new comes out. This vote is going to be incredible. So we'll see what happens. Thank you both. I think that we. This is such great perspective from both of you. As we, like, go, we see this congressional legal battle, you know, happen right now. And I think it's really embarrassing to have to take this vote to be on the record. Although they've already voted for, you know, Speaker Johnson's countermeasure joke.

C (46:59)

Right?

B (46:59)

Right. There's. There's too much, too much in all this. And they know it. They do know it. I mean, I serve these folks. They're not all evil people. There's good people. They know it. And I think, truthfully, a lot of them hate what they're doing, but they don't have the kahunas to step up and go, I'm gonna do the right thing.

A (47:20)

Yeah. All right, well, thank you so much. I'm gonna, gonna sign out for everyone and thank you. That was another episode of the Tara Palmari Show. If you like this show, please rate it, subscribe, share it with your friends, leave comments, tell me everything you want to hear. If you like my reporting, you can go to Tara Palmeri.com that's T A R A P A L m e r I.com and sign up for my newsletter, the Red Letter, and you'll get my exclusive reporting straight to your inbox. It's also a way to support my independent journalism by becoming a paid subscriber. I want to thank my team, my producer, Eric Abenate, Adam Stewart on the Thumbnails, and Abby Baker, who is doing research for us. If you like this show, I'll be back again, so please hang on and stick around for this wild ride. We have so much to cover, and I'd love to hear from you about what you want to know more about. See you again soon.