← The Tara Palmeri Show
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- [00:03]
A
Hey everyone, thank you for joining the Tara Palmary show and the Red Letter. For everyone who is watching this on Substack right now, this is a great treat. I am speaking to Andrew Lowney. He is a journalist based in the UK and he is a biographer of Prince Andrew. He had a book that came out earlier this year, a few months ago about the Duke and Duchess of York. That's Prince Andrew and his wife Fergie. You know her as Sarah Ferguson. She's often known as Fergie in the US and as with everything related to the Epstein story, there is scandal all over it. Right before Andrew Lowney's book was even released in the U.S. harper Collins had to make edits to it. Let me tell you what I found in the Bookseller. HarperCollins confirms editing several passages of Andrew Lowney's best selling Prince Andrew biography. And this came reportedly after Melania Trump threatened to sue Hunter Biden because of connections she made. Because of connections he made between Melania and, and Jeffrey Epstein. Hopefully our author will jump on the line and explain that even further himself. But you know, there has been a lot of news right now out of the UK and by the way, for everyone who wants to, you know, to read this book, it's called entitled the Rise and Fall of the House of York and it's a part of a trilogy. Andrew Lowney has been the British historian and he's an author of books about the royal family. And he's really zeroed in on, on Prince Andrew and has alleged that the royal family has allowed someone who has conducted in criminal behavior, as we know, he had to settle a civil settlement with Virginia Giuffre over, over alleged sexual abuse. And so this is a huge deal. He lost some of his royal titles but, but not all of them. He still holds onto a number of royal titles. But the book really goes into deep detail into the friendship between Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew and his wife, Sarah Ferguson, the Duchess of York. Now the reason that I reached out to Andrew is also because someone just so happened to be sitting next to him at a dinner table and said, Tara, why don't you reach out to him? There's always some scandal around the Epstein story and this book, book. And you know, he actually had to have passages from his book edited. And so I think that's a really big deal that publishers are so afraid right now. They're so stifled by free speech. Not just ABC News, you know, not just the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal which have been, which have to deal with lawsuits from, you know, from the White House, from Trump himself. You know that also that also applied to ABC and cbs, which settled with President Trump. But publishers, book publishers like HarperCollins, a book published in the in the UK they are afraid of freedom of speech in here in the US and that is why parts of Andrew's book had to be edit it out. And the only way for you just to read it is for you to go to the UK yourself. Now we have our guest on the line. I know there are some difficulties. Thanks so much, Andrew, for joining.
- [03:50]
B
Not at all. Pleasure. Nice to talk to you. I'm sorry about the technical difficulties, but it's all good.
- [03:58]
A
Thank you for joining. I gave our listeners a little bit of a briefing on your work. This latest book entitled is a part of a trilogy that you're a historian and that you've been, you know, doing extensive. How many interviews did you do for this book, by the way? I just got into it last night and it's fascinating.
- [04:18]
B
Gosh. Well, I mean, I did quite a lot when the book first came out in August. And then we've had clearly a new flurry of interviews since yesterday because of the revelations with Fergie. So I don't know, I've probably on 20 since yesterday.
- [04:30]
A
Oh, no, I mean interviews for the book. Like how many?
- [04:33]
B
Yeah, well, I would think probably about 300 in the end. I mean, all the people I managed to identify and I've continued, I had two interviews yesterday, lunch with someone who had been an ambassador and somebody worked in the palace I had a coffee with yesterday. So the research continues. And in fact, many people come forward since the book came out willing to talk or not realize, you know, people I hadn't actually been able to trace. So it's been very exciting.
- [05:03]
A
Yeah. That is always the interesting part about doing journalism is once the piece is published, how many people see what you've been working on and then they come forward and start talking to you. And then I'm sure it will lead to the next book. But I do, before we even get started, I was talking about how parts of your book were edited for the United States. And so can you tell our listeners in the US what parts of the book were edited, what did they allege and why did they were removed before.
- [05:32]
B
Publishing in the U.S. well, actually they're edited in for Britain. There was some stuff on it was all mainly Trump. It was talked about how Epstein had basically had a relationship with Melania before Trump. In fact, Trump had first made love to Melania on one of Epstein's aircraft and Trump didn't like that. There was also conversations between Trump and Andrew which came from some. One at the consulate, British Consulate, about how they just did locker room talk and Trump went after the News Corps and they decided, though, you know, I was able. I was very willing to stand my stuff up. I went back and checked my sources. Absolutely accurate. But everyone was folding in front of Trump. The Daily Beast, I think, did something clear. The Wall Street Journal, which is part of News Corps, had bended the knee and I think the feeling by the lawyers was it easier just to take the stuff. Stuff out rather than have a fight, which was. Really took us away from the essential story.
- [06:40]
A
And there were other. There were other connections to expensive and.
- [06:44]
B
So that was fine. So that came out of the British edition.
- [06:48]
A
Yeah. And there was another connection between Milani and Epstein. Right in the book.
- [06:55]
B
No, I think those are the two bits. It was. I think that was the main. The main two things. And then Harry popped up claiming he hadn't had a fight with. With Andrew. And again, we just took that out. It was. It was an incidental thing which was put in at the last minute, really, because out of a curiosity by my editor. So those are the only changes. But by that state, I think about 60,000 copies have been printed. So it's not exactly a secret. And I suspect there are an awful lot of people who've. Who've read. Read it and probably would have passed over it if Trump hadn't drawn attention to it.
- [07:32]
A
Yeah, it's just. It's a wild moment that we're living in right now. As someone who has been a historian for so many years, have you ever. Did you ever think that this would happen to your work?
- [07:48]
B
Well, they're always, you know, you always have to make concessions and clearly it's more difficult with a living person. There are all sorts of rules of privacy and libel there. And I think, you know, much more difficult, particularly with royals. People are not talking on the record, they're often NDAs. So it does make it much more difficult to, you know, with documents, though they're not always accurate. At least you've got documents you can quote. So this was a departure for me. You know, normally I do work with documents, but they're no documents now. Everything's closed. I tried to get access to the files on Andrew as a trade envoy, which should be public. And so it's a very different book to the ones I've written in the past. And clearly your one's touching on Very sensitive subjects. I mean, this kind of, you know, goes to the heart of the royal family and argues that there's corruption, you know, amongst some very senior royals.
- [08:36]
A
Yeah, I do want to get into that, but first I want to talk about the latest news. This. These leaked emails, they just seem to keep dribbling out. And I think everyone is sort of wondering how these emails are leaking. I mean, do you think it's a hacker?
- [08:54]
B
It.
- [08:54]
A
The Epstein estate? You know, the latest email, just for everyone, is it shows that Sarah Ferguson, known as Fergie, the former. She keeps the title Duchess of York, right after their. After their divorce, she was Prince Andrew's wife. That she apologized to Jeffrey Epstein after she publicly called him a pedophile and regretted having any sort of relationship with him. She. She went so far in her apology that she called him a supreme friend. And for people who are unaware of this news. I'm gonna. I'm gonna read off the. I'm gonna read off what exactly she read. She said to him in her apology. This is after Jeffrey Epstein spent time incarcerated for procuring a minor for prostitution. Okay. He was a sex offender. I know you feel hellaciously let down by me from what you either told or either what you were either told or read, and I must humbly apologize to you and your heart for that. I did not absolutely not say the P word. She's means pedophile. And I saw all my children's work disappear, disappearing. So basically she's apologizing because she said she was worried that her children's work would disappear. And she's an author of children's books. Right. So this was, you know, obviously. And in these emails, she kisses up to him even more, calling him a supreme friend weeks after she disavowed him publicly. I mean, what do you make of all of this?
- [10:42]
B
Well, I mean, I had this material, actually. I mean, you raised a lot of various questions. And in fact, I was able today to do a piece in the papers here showing how she continued to actually stay at Epstein Properties for several years after she claimed to cut out all contact. Where these emails are coming from is a good question. I mean, we've had 18,000 that Bloomberg had, which led, I think, to Peter Mandelson, the British ambassador to the States, having to. Were being sacked. And now these disclosures about Sarah Ferguson. So it could be hackers, it could be the estate. It's a mystery, but it's certainly giving legs to the whole story. And if this drip trip goes on, then clearly we've Got some big revelations coming. I don't buy Sarah Ferguson's sort of explanation. Here is someone who claimed that she was being threatened with defamation by Epstein and she was scared of him. And yet, as you say, she's writing to him pretty effusive and friendly terms. And I'm afraid what I found with my research was that what she did in public and what she did in private were very different and she thought she'd probably get away with this. And it just points up to the double standards of cynicism which she operates. You know, she's been championing various children's charities and yet as you say, she seems to be turning a blind eye to a man who was abusing young woman. And she must have seen what was going on. She stayed on a regular basis at the Epstein homes. She couldn't have been unaware of what was happening. And I'm just amazed that the authorities haven't caught her in for questioning as a material.
- [12:19]
A
And this was also after Virginia Giuffre made the allegations against her ex husband. Right. This email was sent.
- [12:27]
B
I'm not aware of exactly when Jeffrey made the allegations.
- [12:32]
A
She made the allegations in 2010, 27.
- [12:35]
B
Really? Gosh, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think as we begin to look at the timeline and we begin to get these releases, then, you know, the whole thing looks, you know, much murkier than people realized. I mean, one of the things that both Andrew and Sarah did was they kind of laundered their reputation by professing to be supporters of these children's charities. Andrew actually was a spokesperson for something called the nccc, which is a British charity for the prevention of cruelty to children. And yet here they were. Certainly Andrew involved himself with abusing young women. There was material which I couldn't put in the book, but about 15 year old girls, for example, everyone dismisses him, you know, saying Virginia Giffre was 17, it was fine, but actually there were much younger girls and I suspect there is more to come out, you know, when and if the Epstein files come out and they haven't been too heavily weeded, that may give us some new leads there.
- [13:35]
A
Where do you think these emails are coming from again?
- [13:41]
B
Well, I don't know. I think, you know, the two things that you suggest, the Epstein state and some sort of hacking is possible. You know, has stuff been shown to Congress and someone in Congress is leaking it? I mean, what was interesting is that the Fergie material was written, was shared between the sun and the male on Sunday, the woman on the sun who's credited is Daphne Barak, who previously done an interview with Ghislaine in prison, was actually mooted at one point to be ghosting Andrew's memoirs. So someone who was clearly very good connections to the Yorks, but clearly this is not a leak that's been very helpful to them. So the stories that the palace are finding, the story that they're actually basically hanging Sarah Ferguson up to dry as a way of protecting Andrew, which seems to be a rather strange theory, because all that's going to happen is just draw more attention to the Yorks, and if material comes out in Andrew, they'll just come after people, go after Andrew as well. So who knows? But, you know, the story is developing each day and we may have some answers soon.
- [14:49]
A
So in your book, you write that Andrew and Fergie borrowed from Epstein. They borrowed money. How much do you think they may have borrowed from Jeffrey Epstein?
- [15:00]
B
Well, the figure I was told was £2,000,000. I certainly don't believe the figure of £15,000. They didn't deal either of them in such low sums.
- [15:13]
A
That's what they admitted to. They admitted to £15,000, to be clear. Correct?
- [15:18]
B
Yes, they admitted £15,000. And also it wasn't clear what the money was for. Was it to pay Johnny o' Sullivan's tuition? Was it to pay his wages? Was it to pay Kate Waddington, the PR woman's, wages? Was it to pay other debts? Was money paid to the children? She talks about thanking him for supporting her family. You know, she has a lot of questions to answer and she's clearly being very silent at the moment, which, you know, I would argue is pretty suspicious.
- [15:50]
A
Okay. I wanted to ask you also about how the. How and when were Sarah Ferguson and Prince Andrew first introduced to Jeffrey Epstein? I mean, we are. Prince Andrew said it was through Galen Maxwell. Right. But you write that they've known each other for much longer than people think or know. Can you sort of give us a timeline of their friendship?
- [16:20]
B
Well, it's very difficult. So a friend of Ghislaine who talked to me said that it was the 1980s, when Ghislaine was at Oxford. I think it's very unlikely because they were in different circles. Ghislaine herself said in the interview she did recently that it was Sarah Ferguson who introduced her to Andrew. And that makes much more sense. Sarah Ferguson and Ghislaine were sort of big figures, expatriate in the expatriate community in New York in the mid-1990s, I'd say. And that makes much more sense. But, you know, until none of them are actually people that you can really always believe what they say, and they're each case trying to shift to each other. The line from Alastair Watson, who was Andrew's private secretary, writing to the Times, was that Andrew met Epstein in 1991. That was the line Steve Hoffenberg also put, who was one of the people involved in Epstein's Ponzi scheme and went to prison for it. So, but, you know, in the 1990s, Andrew was still in the Navy. He did have long periods where he was out and about. I found he was operating in Kazakhstan for a time, for example. But there are no real references to Andrew and Epstein certainly in newspapers or even talking to people. So there's a bit of a gap there. But they certainly were emerging in the late 1990s. We have Andrew on the Lolita Express in the beginning of 1999. But, you know, again, it's unlikely you would be going to spend time on the island if they'd only just met. So it suggests that the relationship was going on a little bit of time. And certainly Sarah Ferguson had been on lolita Express in 1998. So, you know, we need more information.
- [18:06]
A
Wow, that's interesting that she would have been on the Lolita Express before him, right?
- [18:12]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think it was only to Miami or somewhere. So it's still unclear whether she went to the island. We know that she went to the House of Manhattan. We know that she stayed in the flats with Mark Epstein, owned around the corner. We know that she went to the Palm beach home. But again, I have no evidence that she went to the ranch. And the people who would know are clearly keeping quiet, unfortunately. You know, the. The staff who work there.
- [18:45]
A
Right. I. I like this. This passage that you write in the book. You say that Andrew was easy prey for a rattlesnake like Epstein. Epstein played Andrew. The prince was a useful idiot who gave him respectability, access to political leaders and business opportunities. He found him easy to exploit. And you said that, that. That Andrew was his super bowl trophy. And this was someone that. You're quoting Stephen Hoffenberg, who was Epstein's former partner. Partner in a massive Ponzi scheme. It was a $400 million Ponzi scheme. And so it's interesting that. That you wrote. Wrote that. So what. What was the nature of their relationship? How would you describe it to people?
- [19:32]
B
Well, I mean, what Andrew gave Epstein was respectability and status. I mean, he. He was invited to Buckingham palace to sandringham to Balmoral. And I think Epstein had this belief that he was actually going to be some sort of financial advisor to the Queen and other members of the family. And Andrew, of course, also gave Epstein very useful contacts. He'd been the trade envoy for 10 years between 01 and 2011. And for Andrew, Epstein offered again, contacts people might not have been in touch with. And he admitted that in his Newsnight interview. He offered him a ready supply of young women and he offered him, basically, someone who would pay a lot of Fergie's debts. So, you know, it was a mutually beneficial relationship for the two of them. And they were very close. I mean, I think I quote saying that they were sort of best buddies. They were both sex addicts. I mean, I think Epstein said that Andrew was even kinkier than he was. So they were sort of blood brothers in many ways, in the way that Epstein was very close to. To Trump. Same sort of interests, money and women.
- [20:43]
A
Wow. And just for everyone who's maybe hasn't been following the Fergie story, I found that a few people on my team didn't even know who she was. Why did she have so many debts? Can you kind of explain her story? She sort of fell into disreputable repute in the uk, like Prince Andrew and. And then had to go to the US to launder her. And maybe you can tell people about that. Yeah.
- [21:07]
B
So Sarah Ferguson separated from the Duke in 1992. They got divorced in 1996. She had to sort of this. She was actually given quite a generous settlement, much more generous than she claims. She was a very extravagant person, had extensive staff, had extensive expensive rents, she traveled on Concord, she was always buying things. She stayed in expensive hotels, though, had expensive holidays. And so very quickly she fell into debt and she needed people to pay off those debts. And she had a whole series of either rich boyfriends or people who were brought in to try and help her with these debts. And I think clearly she was vulnerable to someone like Epstein, who had plenty of money and was prepared to. To give her money. I mean, a lot of these things were meant to be loans, but she never, of course, repaid them. So, you know, she was, in some ways, one of the vulnerabilities for Andrew. Andrew, I think, came in December 2010 to persuade Epstein to pay off some more of her debts. The Queen had paid off millions of pounds when she got fed up. And I think there were other businessmen. A man called David Tang, who's now dead, was supposed to have paid a lot of debts. So, you know, she was a real liability. But she saw that we're easy pickings here. But as you might came to the States, she relaunched herself. She was seen as a bit of a hero, that she'd fought against the palace establishment, that she presented herself as a victim, went on Oprah, made a lot of money.
- [22:44]
A
I don't know somebody who's done that before. Meghan Markle.
- [22:48]
B
Well, exactly. I mean, Meghan Markle. Markle could learn a lot from Fergie. I mean she's.
- [22:52]
A
Yeah, right.
- [22:54]
B
Fergie's been a much more successful Meghan Markle. So. But lots and lots of pearls and of course lots of pearls between Harry and Andrew as well. The same, you know, structure of the. The military which had kept them on the straight and narrow, being abandoned when they, when they broke loose. Both marrying women which were totally unsuitable and led them into real problem. Both very stupid men who didn't always follow the advice they were given. So very interesting parallels there. So but Fergie to her credit, you know, did relaunch herself. She did make large sums of money, but the problem is she was never making enough money to cover her overheads.
- [23:29]
A
Yeah. Just for people who have just joined the live, I want to tell everyone the name of this book. It is entitled the Rise and Fall of the House of York. I'm told that you actually can't buy it in the US right now. Is that true?
- [23:44]
B
Now the background to it is I had a major US publisher who was due to publish exactly the same time as the William Collins edition. And they pulled the book a few weeks before publication without really giving any proper justification. And I was forced to self publish the book as the only way to get it out at the same time through Amazon. So you can get the hardback or the ebook. And there is actually an audio done by Blackstone. But the problem was that I'm not very technical. I was given a corrupted file by the British publisher and as a result the edition that came out, which has been corrected and I hope that no more problems, wasn't formatted properly. So the book is there. I think you can also buy the British edition. I think it's slightly more expensive, but actually it's a lovely edition with full color pictures, four sets of plates, over 60 pages of pictures. So I mean that's the one to buy. So it shouldn't be impossible through third party sellers to get the book and.
- [24:51]
A
This book by the way, already has edited.
- [24:53]
B
But there have been attempts to frustrate this book instead.
- [24:56]
A
Yeah, this book already had to be edited because of what you wrote about Melania Trump in the book and Epstein.
- [25:03]
B
Yes, well, that. That request came several weeks after the book came out. So there are a lot of copies out there from the edition which before they. Before Collins changed it. So, you know, it was a pretty pointless gesture. But, yes, the book should be, you know, should be fine now. If anyone's got any problems, they can. They can get it refunded and replaced. And I am talking about the possibility of bringing out another edition either next summer, updated, or even as soon as sometime before Christmas, because the events are moving so quickly. I've got so much new information that the book, I wouldn't say is out of date, but there is a lot more that can be added to it now, given what's been emerging.
- [25:51]
A
And you mentioned that you have a lot of photos in your book in the UK version. So President Trump denied knowing Prince Andrew, but you say that there is extensive photographic evidence and you write about Prince Andrew's trip to Mar A Lago. Can you describe the relationship between Prince Andrew and President Trump and this visit to Mar A Lago and just how long their relationship goes?
- [26:16]
B
Yeah, well, the relationship, I think the pictures in Mar A Lago 2000, it's a relationship that continues to this day. He could have even gone to the state banquet the other night. I mean, he was certainly involved in Trump's previous trip here, and it revolved around basically playing golf. Andrew would play golf with him. When Trump came to Britain, Andrew was designated as the sort of royal to deal with him. But they would turn, for example, talk about Trump's temporary golf course, which he was keen to develop. And Andrew actually is the Earl of Inverness, which is that part of Scotland where the temporary is. It was a very close relationship. They had these locker room conversations where they would swap masseur lists of who they recommended. They would talk business. I suspect there were business opportunities that they discussed. Andrew would have met him clearly in his work as a royal, as a trade envoy. So it was a pretty close relationship. I mean, a real buddy, buddy relationship. In Mar A Lago, Andrew met all sorts of women there through Trump. Some woman who he met there, he actually, supposedly have taken to the island.
- [27:31]
A
Oh, okay.
- [27:32]
B
One of them is one called Gerald Geraldine Beck. And so, yeah, very, very close connections. I mean, Trump is trying to distance himself, as he is from his connections with Epstein, but the three of them were real chums.
- [27:48]
A
Okay, so they were friends. You know, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the Win Win situation in the friendship between Epstein and Andrew and how Glenn Maxwell facilitated introductions between Andrew Epstein and very powerful people, and how even the Queen benefited from this.
- [28:11]
B
Yes, well, I mean, you know, Andrew picked up some useful contacts as a trade envoy. He was taking Epstein on some of these trips. We don't know exactly which trips because all the files are still closed. But, you know, he was, you know, taken to royal residences. We don't know if he met the Queen, but he certainly hoped to meet the Queen and thought he would act, as I say, as her business advisor. And again, you know, there are so many gaps in the story. It's difficult to know exactly what was going on, but it's clear that the two of them were helping each other in terms of their business projects. Epstein was clearly. Andrew was in New York a lot, often staying with Epstein. He would take him to the consulate. He would take him to meetings that were being set up for trade opportunities. So, I mean, big, big advantages to Epstein to have his link with Andrew. And, of course, Epstein. Epstein was flying Andrew all over the place, as we know, from the Lolita Express. But, you know, the Queen certainly supported what Andrew was doing. I mean, she was entertaining some of these despots with whom he seemed to have business relationships, particularly in the Central Asian republics like Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. And these were places, I suspect, that Epstein went. I mean, this was the Wild West. There were big opportunities for oil and gas, and I suspect that Epstein was involved there. But until we have more openness about royal finances, particularly Andrew's finances, which were all offshore through nominee accounts. He had a Chinese bank account. You know, it's very difficult to know exactly what was happening between the two of them.
- [29:56]
A
Was it possible that Andrew was passing on information to. For Epstein and Glenn to various intelligence agencies or the other way around, where, you know, Epstein. Where Epstein and Glenn took information from Andrew and his. And the dignitaries and the world leaders that spend time with him and then pass that information on to intelligence agencies. Is there any sort of connection between the intelligence world and this friendship?
- [30:26]
B
Yes, I mean, that's what I understand with several people. So for. I mean, there were plenty of honey traps with Andrew. He was caught, you know, filmed in bed with women, possibly women he shouldn't, you know, younger women. We know that Epstein did that, and we know the tapes are picked up by the FBI and Mark Dugan took some of them away to Russia. I had a contact in Russia, a man called Tim Riley, who talks about the compromise the Russians had. This is a man with strong intelligence Links. There's a Kazakhstan businessman who said it was standard practice for the Kazakh intelligence services to film people, to offer the prostitutes and then to film them. And certainly my contacts said that the intelligence agencies in the Middle east, particularly Mossad, but also Libya, China and other countries would certainly have had compromise on Andrew. What he was able to give is difficult to.
- [31:19]
A
To know.
- [31:20]
B
I mean, he worked in the Ministry of Defense. He would have picked up. He could have lunch or dinner with anyone he wanted. He could have picked up information. And we know that Epstein traded in information. That was, you know, one of the things he did. So it's. It's very likely that Andrew, either wittingly or unwittingly, gave information to Epstein which he was able to pass on to. To intelligence agencies and governments and people who shouldn't have had this information.
- [31:47]
A
Do you think Epstein was. Was passing on information to multiple intelligence agencies and, and like the FBI, MI6, Mossad, and that's why they all found him to be useful. He was sort of like this hyper fixer type guy who could. Just gave information to everyone, and that's how he remained protected.
- [32:04]
B
Yes, I think that's very likely. He would have, you know, he would have been a very useful contact for all of them. You know, he would have certainly been debriefed even if he wasn't on the books. He would have been a very useful asset for them. And they may well have tasked him with jobs to get information from people. I mean, his range of contacts was extraordinary, ranging from prime ministers. He was close to Tony Blair. He was pretty close to Mandelson, who was a very important figure at the time in British politics. We had Ehud Barak and others. So, you know, it makes sense that they would contact Epstein. And Epstein realized that he could, he could trade this information for use, for favors. And clearly, if he compromised people, then that put him in an even stronger position.
- [32:56]
A
I did a podcast on this. I had some reporting about his bodyguard, Igor Zinoviev. Trump. Sorry, excuse me. Epstein's bodyguard, Igor Zenobiev, going to Langley, the CIA headquarters, and spending time there while Epstein was incarcerated, while he was spending time in the prison in 2008. Not prison, excuse me, county jail. And he would. He took a binder from the CIA and brought it back with a note to Jeffrey Epstein. And we know that Jeffrey Epstein had various meetings with Burns, who was the Deputy Secretary of State at the time. And we know Secretary. The State Department and CIA often work very closely together. So there are a number of connections. I reached out to the CIA. And I asked them, you know, you have a log of everyone who has ever entered Langley. Do you have a log? Do you have Igor Zinoviev in that log? And they just never got back to me. I mean, we had many exchanges of emails, we spoke over the phone, but they just refused to tell me. I think it would have been a very, yes, easy, yes or no question. Did this person enter the grounds? And this is all information I obtained through a lawyer for Jeffrey ep, a lawyer for one of the victims, Brad Edwards, who's very well known, who spoke to this, this bodyguard, Igor Zobiev, who I've tried to reach out to, but I've been told from other journalists who speak to him that he was credible, but he's gone underground. So, yeah, there is a lot of different angles going on here. Do you think there are any other intelligence angles that we might be missing when it comes to this relationship between the Crown and Epstein?
- [34:41]
B
Well, I know that British intelligence was certainly monitoring Andrew. In fact, they were monitoring Sarah Ferguson and some of her connections. She had connections with a Texan called Steve Wyatt, who's father was involved in trading oil during the Iran Iraq war. So, I mean, they were clearly keeping an eye there on Wyatt. I suspect they were watching her and others. And certainly the police protection officers would have been doing that. They would have been liaison with intelligence services. But we also know, I also know from some of the people I've talked to that they were watching Andrew and his activities in the Central Asian republics. They were concerned about the people he was engaging with. And actually there's a story of him taking a $5 million bribe from someone in Kazakhstan and the intelligence services reporting this to the British authorities and in fact, to the Royal Household and nothing actually being done about it. So, I mean, they clearly were. I think there's. There's a bigger picture here. And all we can do is begin to try and put bits of the jigsaw together. But there's still large parts of this jigsaw which, you know, need some more pieces. But it's. It's clearly a much bigger operation than I think people realized. And, you know, I'm surprised that more names haven't come out. I mean, it's always the same names, so it's, you know, this story has a long way still to run, I think.
- [36:06]
A
Yeah, no, I think you're right. It's amazing that the Crown would know about this, but it seems like he was being controlled by just a very simple honeypot operation. I mean, do you think that Vladimir Putin was involved in some ways in this? Because this seems very kgb.
- [36:22]
B
Well, the KGB had trained the Central Asian republics, so. Absolutely. I mean, they would have known everything that was going on in the Central Asian republics, which he spent a lot of time in. And I know he was entertained, you know, by prostitutes and girls who were brought to him. I think Putin. We know that Mark Dugan seems to pass some of this FBI material to a very close associate of Putin. So it will be. Putin could see it if he wished. So, yeah, There's a lot of compromising material, and one of the mysteries is the stuff hasn't surfaced yet, but maybe that we're now beginning to get these email leaks, maybe we'll begin to get various pictures. But it sounds like whatever pressure was being put on, let's say Andrew seems to have meant that this stuff hasn't come out, that he somehow has. Has provided whatever information they wanted. So as long as he pays ball, maybe the stuff won't come out.
- [37:22]
A
Yeah, I guess. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the photograph of Virginia Giuffre. Do you know more about that? The circumstances of how the Crown tried to cover that up, how they said it was doctored? I mean, what was the reaction when that photo came out? I'd like to just know more about, like, the PR around that. I just feel like the Royal Family has botched every moment of this in terms of public relations and.
- [37:59]
B
Yeah, of course they have. Well, I mean, you know, they maintain and they have various sort of acolytes who went that, you know, this is a fake document. But I think I go into it in some detail in the book. I mean, I show that Virginia Gifray was tracked down by Charon Churcher, a journalist who found her. I mean, Virginia Giffre had gone underground. The man, the photographer who went and took these pictures, Michael Thomas, talks about them literally being pulled out of a shelf. There were various copies that he made. He photographed them front and back. He had the Walmart sign on the back. Everything fits with.
- [38:35]
A
With.
- [38:35]
B
With all the logistics of her going there, the fact that she took it into Walmart three days later. It wasn't possible at the. Even when the story broke to forge documents like this. Forensic experts looked at the pictures.
- [38:49]
A
Yeah, we didn't have photoshopping like that then. Right, exactly.
- [38:53]
B
Exactly. Now, I mean, one, the original was taken to the FBI, and that one is the one that's so called missing. But the FBI certainly must have done their own tests and don't have disputed it. I also talked to a woman who. Who hasn't appeared in the story, I think, from any other writer, a woman called Sandra White, who was sent as a male Sunday journalist, actually a friend of mine to mind, Virginia Gif Ray spent weeks with her, said she was an entirely genuine person. I mean, none of this was.
- [39:21]
A
Yeah, she was a lovely person. I spent a lot of time with her as well. She was very credible. Incredible. I think, actually she held back a lot of what she knows, to be honest.
- [39:30]
B
Yes.
- [39:32]
A
She feared that people wouldn't. Her life was so horrific. I think she feared people wouldn't believe her if they knew everything.
- [39:39]
B
Well, let's hope, you know, some of that stuff may have found its way into her book because, you know, a lot of pressure was put on her. But, you know, that's exactly. I mean, everyone says who's worked with her. I mean, we owe her a lot because without Virginia Jeffrey, most of the story wouldn't have come out.
- [39:53]
A
No.
- [39:54]
B
And, you know, she paid a heavy price for her openness. But, you know, Sandra says, you know, that she got to know her. This was all entirely genuine. And, you know, these people, you know, Victoria Harvey and others, you know, make all sorts of claims without any evidence and all ridiculous things about how the picture was doctored. So I, you know, and the case against Andrew, and even just against Virginia Giffrey and Andrew, you know, depends on so many other factors apart from the photograph. I mean, there's email correspondence with Andrew and Ghislaine discussing how they deal with Virginia Giffre. This is the person they claim never to, you know, had any contact.
- [40:39]
A
Was all over the flight log, so.
- [40:42]
B
Yeah, well, exactly. I mean, we have, you know, we have the stuff there, so. And, you know, the other witnesses have come forward. We've. We've, you know, there's just so much evidence that supports her story that couldn't have been put together and faked. You know, it would have taken a giant conspiracy. No one has ever seen the picture that is supposed to be used to do the fake picture. And, you know, Andrew and Ghislaine have repeatedly been shown to lie. So, you know, who are you going to believe? Virginia Giffre, who clearly got some facts wrong in a highly traumatized way, working with a ghostwriter who perhaps didn't understand the full story, remembering things that happened many years before when she was pretty traumatized, and these two characters who brought in PR firms to try and denigrate Jeffrey, you know, you know, for anyone looking at it in an Outside, in a reasonably dispassionate way, it's pretty clear that there's absolutely no case to be made. Jay Beecher, I understand, is going to produce a book. But a lot of the stuff is focused on things that, you know, no one disputes that Virginia Giffre herself, you know, having been a victim, was drawn in to the sort of Ponzi scheme for recruiting girls. So, you know, there are no surprises there. And this was pretty standard practice. You know, you compromise the people that you victimized.
- [42:09]
A
Yeah, I didn't know about the book either. Who is it that's writing a book about her?
- [42:14]
B
Guy called Jay Beecher, who's been doing lots of research. He has, I understand, an intelligence, British intelligence background. He seems to be very close to the Maxwell family and a man called Brian Basham, who has a long history of representing the. As a PR man, the Maxwell family. So there is an agenda.
- [42:34]
A
So it's going to be a piece. Yeah, it's going to be. I didn't have a doubt about that, that they would try to do that. I actually traveled around the country with Virginia and knocked on doors of people who were in, connected to her relationship with Epstein and her time there and the abuse. And I, I, you know, I seen, I've seen up close with, you know, who this woman is and sadly spoke to her before she died.
- [42:58]
B
Because, I mean, one of the. Reverend, sorry to drop. One of the revelations of the book is the fact that there had been a major investigation into Virginia, into Andrew and Virginia Jeffrey, by a BBC program, not News Night, but Panorama and the producer, Laura Burns. I don't know if you have met her, but she traveled around doing exactly what you were doing, you know, in 2019, meeting people, interviewing them, doing an interview with Virginia herself, collecting documentation. I mean, a very thorough investigation. And this was the investigation that Buckingham palace wanted to shut down, which is why they kind of moved their move to Newsnight, who'd been asking for a completely different sort of interview. You and, and agreed to go with them because they thought it would be a slightly easier gig. So, you know, we remember, of course, Amy Roback and abc. I mean, being, being, being told that if they, you know, run any investigation, they would not be given contact with the Royal family. You know, big attempts to, to shut this story down for many years, years during which, you know, Epstein and his merry men, you know, abused many young girls. You know, these people should, you know, have to say, look at their consciousness again about, you know, how they've behaved and how they've protected these men.
- [44:14]
A
I just want to ask you before we wrap this up and thank you so much for all of your time, by the way. I really appreciate it. And for everyone who. I just want to give you the name of the book entitled the Rise and Fall of the House of York as we Know it is right now being self published in the U.S. you, you can get it on Amazon. There were various hiccups in this, including a decision by the publisher to remove reference to Melania Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. So as with everything, there is pressure on publishers, on independent authors and we are being held back all the time by lawfare, especially in this very litigious and this story with very powerful people involved. But I just want to ask you before we wrap up, do you think there's any other correspondence between Fergie and Epstein that might come to light or might just reveal the relationship that they had with, with, with, with Prince Andrew the Crown, you know, Sarah Ferguson herself. Like, do you think there's more that's going to come out in the upstate files?
- [45:20]
B
Absolutely. And I know there is. I mean, in fact, I'm in touch with, with a close friend of Sarah Ferguson's who is, I'm actually going to talk to you after we stop speaking, who has a lot of information about this and actually talks about criminal activity. So I'm going to have to find out more. But you know, people are coming out of the woodwork so who were involved in the story, know the principles, so. Absolutely. And I mean even if the Epstein files have been weeded, you know, I think there be, will, will be things there, there's still legal cases where material could be unsealed and you know, victims are prepared to give their stories to politicians to talk about them on the floor of the house. So I think there's a lot more still to come out, you know, but you know, the work of people like you, and that's why it's such an honor to talk to you. I mean, you've really opened up this whole story and in some ways it's great that we all talk to each other. We, you know, collaborate and share the bits of the puzzle that we've. We've managed to find. Because, you know, there is a lot, I think, still, I think you would agree, still to uncover.
- [46:30]
A
Yeah, no, this story is never ending. It really isn't. And you're right, it feels like we're grasping for bits but, and that there, there is a trove underneath it all. We're just at the tip of the iceberg. And I think even our worst fears are. Are likely even worse than you think. There are a thousand victims, according to the FBI. How many do we really hear from? 20 maybe, because the ones that were really young, they don't want to speak. You know, it was so traumatizing for them.
- [47:00]
B
Yeah, well, also a lot of them were people, you know, young girls bust in that have flown in from Russia who didn't even speak English, who've gone back. No one has any contact. Thailand. Exactly. A great center for all this. I mean, a lot of them are now married. Women with children clearly don't want to revisit it. Some of the victims I've talked to are so traumatized, they, again, don't want to visit it. You know, they sort of rebuilt their lives and kind of compartmentalize this. So, you know, it's going to be very difficult to get stories. And of course, you know, the police don't always treat victims in a very sympathetic way.
- [47:31]
A
We just had the. The. We just had the FBI director say he's never read the victim's testimonies. We just had the man who crafted Epstein's sweetheart deal say that of the 80 page prosecution memo that he was sent recommending 60 counts of indict, 60 indictment counts, that he did not read. The pros, that he did not read the victim's testimonies, but decided that he thought that they would not be able to stand up in court. It's. It's disgusting.
- [48:02]
B
Yes, yes.
- [48:04]
A
Victims, they just don't want to hear from them. That's just what. This is the world that we are in right now. These women are not credible. And this is where we are in this post. Me too. Time where the stories of women are just not credible. Even though they have tons of women with identical stories, they are not credible. Not credible to men. Those are the words of the FBI director. Not credible.
- [48:27]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, I think the great thing is that, you know, they've tried to suppress the story, and each time, I mean, they're digging themselves in deeper and deeper, the authorities, because, you know, people are coming forward. Clearly the witnesses who went to Capitol Hill were very credible. And I think that the vast majority of the public do want this swamp to be cleared. They do want justice for these women. They do want people to be brought to account for what has happened. And as you say, it is a huge, huge problem and it can't be stemmed. I do feel myself. The dam has been breached and justice will be done.
- [49:05]
A
I hope you're right. Thank you so much for your time, Andrew and I hope everyone will go out and get his book as hard as it is to get it. You know when we push through those barriers and we support independent journalists who have to self publish to be published in the United States for a best seller in the UK you know we have to support those people. So go out there, buy his book, tell your friends about it. It's important that we support support journalism. And thank you to everyone who is listening to the show. I appreciate it. You are keeping me able to continue on my work despite all of the, you know, people who would like us to just go away.
- [49:44]
B
Well, thank you. It's been a real privilege to talk to you.
- [49:47]
A
Thanks so much. Have a great day. Okay. All right.
- [49:56]
B
No, that was great. Thank you so much. Thank you for so kindly promoting the book because yeah, it's had its.