Tara Palmeri (1:20)

Thanks for having me. Yeah. So my show, the Tara Palmieri show, is a political podcast because I've long covered power and politics, but I've also covered the Jeffrey Epstein story for a long time as well, since his, his death. And I did some investigative podcasts, two of them, and magazine story and another number of other things. And I stayed in touch with the survivors and I've just kept digging when a lot of people kind of gave up on the story. So that's where we are right now. But I do think it's the perfect story that intertwines power and politics, which has always sort of been my, my focal point, my north star in my career, even when I was based in Brussels covering the EU and Brexit and the populist movements over there. And then when I was a White House correspondent, correspondent covering Trump for ABC News. So, you know, I, I like to tangle with power. I try to figure out what's going on there. And I'm always fascinated by the personalities behind it and how it really works.

John Seifer (2:20)

Well, and since, since this podcast we try to talk about conspiracies and conspiracy theories, these, the Epstein Thing plays on a variety of levels with that thing. So, I mean, just, just to start, it's not the main thing I think we'll end up talking about, but one of the things I've become interested in lately is if, if you look at the Epstein history and what in the investigations and everybody talks about, quote, unquote, files and that type of thing, this isn't just a US Story, really. This is a international story. It involves Maxwells, it involves a lot of other governments and to include Russia and Israel and a number of other places. But it's become like a really core US Political story. And that we almost think that the Justice Department has all the answers on this and that it's up to, you know, Trump to let it go or not let it come out. But don't a lot of foreign governments have pieces of this and understand what's going on? And so if there's bad things in there about powerful people, it's not just in the Justice Department, it's held by others as well. Am I right?

Tara Palmeri (3:19)

I mean, we know it's, it's probably very much held by MI6, who was tracking Prince Andrew around. Right. And his cavorting with various dignitaries.

John Seifer (3:29)

Let me ask you, is that true? Is that, I mean, I'm not saying it's not true, but, but does the, the British government like. It would have to be a big deal for British intelligence services to follow him around. Okay. So. So they would have legal precedent to do. Has that ever come out, or. It's just assumption.

Tara Palmeri (3:46)

It's been reported by, you know, his unauthorized biographer, Andrew Lowney. But it makes, I mean, if you have a royal who's out there trying to do business deals with foreign dignitaries, I would think you'd want to keep track on that. He obviously has access to information. His mother, who saw who, who loved him the most really, of all of them, you know, the fact that she's getting a briefing from the Prime Minister every week. He has a certain status, and I, I can't imagine that they weren't keeping track of him. And we know that Jeffrey Epstein liked to brag about spending time with, with African dictators. Vladimir Putin, he liked to show off the fact that he was friends with random princes from countries that don't even have monarchies anymore, but still have a certain status that gives them access, you know, upper echelon of wealth and finance in society. And so that was. Those were the circles that he, that he swam in. And I think that gave him access to more valuable secrets. I mean, who holds. Who hold. You know, this being spies, former spies.

John Seifer (4:59)

There you go.

Tara Palmeri (5:00)

Who. Who holds all the information that you need most of the time? It's the. It's the power set. Right.

Adam Davidson (5:06)

People with access to it. So, yeah, I want to step back, though, and just sort of maybe fixate on. Fix, like our terminology. So, so. So. And maybe that's a term at least describe what it is we're talking about. Was it? So Epstein, for some people, means. Oh, the. You know, the. The list that was the client list, supposedly that was on Pam Bondi's desk. That's what it is. Or it's something else. Or this.

John Seifer (5:34)

And.

Adam Davidson (5:34)

And looking into this, the roots of this go back to, like, you know her. I can never say her name.

Tara Palmeri (5:41)

Ghislaine. Maxwell.

John Seifer (5:43)

Ghislaine.

Adam Davidson (5:43)

Yeah. I can never spell it or pronounce it. Yeah. But it goes back to her father. People don't maybe not realize. Americans may not realize who he is. He was sort of the Rupert Murdoch of his day, but it actually goes back to, like, the 1950s or even late 40s when he was in Berlin, where apparently, you know, he signed a. He signed an agreement to. To. To work with the. The Russians, with the Soviets, and this thing balloons out. There's. There's. There's elements that are in France. There's elements of. Of espionage, there's elements of money. There are mysteries involved, like, where did Epstein get his money? How did he. I mean, he was. Wasn't qualified for any of these positions that he got into, including his first teaching position. So there's all these mysteries. How would you like, if you could, like, in one and a half minutes, I'll time you. How would you describe the. The. The entire Epstein, like, drama?

Tara Palmeri (6:39)

I think he's an international con man that various agencies across the country found across the world. Excuse me. Found to be useful because he offered them information on people that he blackmailed or spend time with, and he used sexual embarrassment as a way to get information or became involved with them in ways that were criminal. But he was the one who was willing to go to the authorities first. Like, for example, in the Financial Towers, Ponzi scheme. It was a $300 million scheme. This was early on in his career. It was the largest Ponzi scheme in the world at the time with Stephen Hoffenberg. It's been reported that he spoke to prosecutors at least three times. Now, his partner in that scheme, Stephen Hoffenberg, spent the rest of his life in prison. But Jeffrey Epstein did not. You know, he was Involved as an informant on a bear. I believe it was Bear Stearns case. But there was another financial case that he was involved in, but this was his network and he's useful to all of these people. Also, I thought something that was interesting that came up in the Galen Maxwell tapes when she was interviewed by Todd Blanche. Not that I take everything she says at, at at face value, but for a very long time she denied the connection between her father. Excuse me, sorry, Robert Maxwell, who I did an entire podcast on, by the way, called Power the Maxwells. You will enjoy it because it is very succession s. It's very Rupert Murdoch. That's going to help you understand how influential of a figure he was at the time. Like she was the equivalent of Elizabeth Murdoch or, or, or even more so because she was a socialite hanging out with the royals and she was written about in the newspapers as being this like beautiful young socialite. So. And he was going to buy the New York Daily News. He owned the, the Mirror in, in the uk, he would fight for newspapers against Rupert Murdoch. He had MTV Europe, he had Peregrine. So he had even the, sorry, Macmillan and some of the other top scientific publishing houses. So he had a. He had a lot of influence through publishing. But it was interesting because she admitted in this tape that actually her father vouched for Jeffrey Epstein for a. A job in finance when clearly he was a college dropout who was kind of known for being a sex pest at a high school that he taught at Dalton. And, and here's Robert Maxwell vouching for him. And I'm like, well, how do they know each other? And, and that's always been the question. There's always been a theory that he introduced Galen to Jeffrey and then funneled money to him offshore, laundered money, knowing that either Mossad was going to get him because he was too compromised, or he was going to have to kill himself because he squandered all the pensioners money. He dies off the side of his.

Adam Davidson (9:32)

This is Robert Maxwell.

Tara Palmeri (9:33)

Yeah, yeah, Robert Maxwell, the Lady Galan. By the way, everyone around these people die mysteriously. So he dies off the side of his yacht. I personally think, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was probably too compromised because he had stolen all this money from the pensioners and Mossad wanted to get rid of him and, and that's why he was. He died. These people, these men, they are not the suicidal type. I was actually talking to Mark Epstein last week and Mark Epstein is Jeffrey Epstein's brother. And we were saying, I said, do you think that Jeffrey Epstein would kill himself? Like, you know him, he's your brother. And obviously he wants, he doesn't want it to be marked as a suicide because he won't get the insurance money. Right. And he can prove foul play. He can sue the government. Yeah, yeah. There's more money in it for him if his son, if his brother was killed. But I do think there is something about these men, the level of ego, like ego maniacs, narcissism, that do not make them the type that kill themselves. They think they can get out of everything. They treat people terribly. You don't steal from pensioners and not think you can't get out of it. So I think he was killed. He funneled the money to Epstein, who got it to Galen Maxwell. Now we don't have any bank transfers. You don't have anything to prove that. But how did Glenn Maxwell live in New York City? And when she got there, only have $100,000 to her name, he's bankrupt and suddenly she's living, you know, in a, she's living in a multimillion dollar apartment next to Jeffrey Epstein, which is the biggest in New York City, biggest townhouse in Upper east side. It just seems like, why would he just take care of this woman who he didn't even want to have sex with, according to his tapes?

John Seifer (11:10)

Tell us a little bit more about Robert Maxwell. Because as I, if I remember, Rob Maxwell, his paper in Britain was people believed it was actually funded by Russia in Russian interests. Is that true?

Tara Palmeri (11:23)

There was certainly a feeling that, that Robert Maxwell was not what he seemed. I think everybody sort of, you know, I didn't know that at the time that people thought it was funded by Russia. And I didn't. We didn't hear that. But there was certainly a feeling that he was not working for the UK government, although he ends up being an MP at one point, a member of Parliament. Isn't that amazing?

John Seifer (11:47)

Well, if you get a legendary.

Adam Davidson (11:49)

Robert Maxwell is not his real name for the audience, but he, he was born in Czechoslovakia. Right. He was a, a checker who just was able to get out in 1939 before the N marched in. He did end up in British intelligence, Right. In the OSS during the war, and then after the war was posted in Berlin, where he maintained a close relationship, supposedly it said, with the Soviets. But then later he rose up and I'm not sure how, but he became a great power inside of the uk a publisher and newspaper baron. And then in the end, it turns out he stole basically all his pensioners money, had gone bankrupt and died mysteriously on his falling off his yacht or pushed. Right. Now you mentioned Mossad and I'm not really not clear on if there's what or if the relationship is between Maxwell and Mossad was during the 50s, 60s, 70s. Do you have a sense of that or what we know?

Tara Palmeri (12:50)

Well, he was buried in the Mount of Olives in Israel, which is reserved.

Adam Davidson (12:55)

For kids if you're rich. Yeah, they could do that, but it.

Tara Palmeri (12:58)

You think so?

Adam Davidson (12:59)

Oh yeah.

Tara Palmeri (12:59)

If you're rich even after being. Even after stealing from pensioners and they weren't rich then anymore, they were disgraced.

Adam Davidson (13:05)

Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

Tara Palmeri (13:08)

Yeah. Here's the thing I don't understand. It seems to me like all of these men are sort of playing off a bunch of different intelligence agencies. Happy New Year. If you're anything like me, then your intention is to feel more present in your body, to bring more little luxuries into your life, to treat yourself like a queen, to really embrace life. And that's where Cozy Earth comes in. Their soft bedding, their luxurious pajamas and their towels that feel like a hug. Just a way to enjoy being in the present by upgrading the things around you that your senses, your touch, your smells. And so that's why I brought Cozy Earth into my life. And there's a hundred night sleep trial. You don't love them, return them hassle free. Also a 10 year warranty because they're betting that this quality will last that long. Start the new year off right and give your home the luxury it deserves and make home the best part of Life. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code Tara. That's T A R A for up to 20% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Refresh your routines with comfort that makes everyday life feel like New Year.

Adam Davidson (14:18)

I, I just don't have any, I just don't have any recollection of. I'm not ruling.

Tara Palmeri (14:22)

Did you ever see that often when you were working in the region? I mean it just seems like these, these men kind of are. They're not your everyday asset. They're powerful men and they seem to be being able to sort of work for all different agencies and they probably give them preferable like especially in Russia, you know, it gives you preferable like business terms because you know, the way, you know, it's almost like it's valuable. It's valuable for your Business.

John Seifer (14:49)

It's valuable to the Russians to have people in other countries that are sort of compromised with the Russians because they can do even little bits of stuff to benefit. Benefit the Russians. And I remember, I think there was a article I was reading recently where it said that one of the British Foreign Office reports, like in the late 50s, said that, you know, he was. His, his Pergamon press could be a front for Soviet scientific espionage and things like that. So, I mean, I think he wasn't. But when you say intelligence agencies and stuff, it's hard for us because CIA was a foreign intelligence organization. So like we going after just rich people who were sort of, I don't know, had newspapers and stuff wasn't part of the game for us. I mean, maybe the Israelis for some purpose, certainly the Russians.

Adam Davidson (15:38)

Right.

John Seifer (15:38)

British, because he's there.

Adam Davidson (15:40)

He. It's certainly. I mean, we get back to Epstein. But, but, you know, the forerunner to it. I mean, if. If Robert Maxwell, who is a incredibly powerful individual in the 60s and 70s in the UK, if he wants to talk to Mossad to pass on some information, I'm sure they'll listen. But there's a difference between that and him being controlled by that sort of gets into conspiracy theory. I think oftentimes rich people will try to manipulate intelligence agencies with information. Right. Hey. And then try to get governments to do what they want. We've certainly seen that, you know, in the run up to the, in the run up to the Iraq war, there were a number of dissident Iraqis who were talking to members of the Republican Party and to, you know, elements of the US intelligence community, mostly the military who were, you know, trying to get them to invade. But, but so, so Maxwell, you know, Maxwell dies, his daughter comes, gets together with Jeffrey, and money starts to flow. Now back to Jeffrey Epstein. He's a college dropout, and yet he still gets a job teaching at this high school, right? This elite high school, Dalton. But he doesn't. He's like. I don't know, He. He doesn't have any teaching certificates. He doesn't have a college education. So how does he get this job, just for starters? That's a mystery.

Tara Palmeri (16:53)

Well, he's working for Bill Barr's father, as in the former Attorney General. It's so the, the web of powerful people around him. It is so. It's so amazing. I mean, even when you think about his. He owned a modeling agency called MC Squared, right? And his partner, Jean Luc Brunel, mysteriously dies in a French prison, hanging him.

Adam Davidson (17:19)

This is Epstein Not Barr's father. So he. Right, okay.

Tara Palmeri (17:22)

Yeah. But no, Epstein's partner. Yeah, exactly. And so it's just like he's just. Everything around him is just so mysterious. How are these people so interconnected? He's got meetings with Bill Burns, who you guys know, former deputy State. Sorry, Secretary of State. Secretary. Former Deputy Secretary of State. He met with Jeffrey Epstein. He goes on to be CIA director. I mean, he had really high level contacts and they were willing to meet with him.

John Seifer (17:58)

Clinton, he was friends with Trump. I mean. Yeah, I mean, rich people are all around each other. And when you go back to like he had these connections with agencies, you know, frankly, I think it's. If you have that kind of money and that kind of clout, it's relationships with politicians that are much more valuable for you. So if you go over the heads of agencies, if you're friends with the Prime Minister and you're friends with the President and you're friends with people around, then you can get things done because they tell agencies what to do and they actually, the ones can move money and move things around. So if you're in with the royal family in England and you're in with the Prime Minister and you're in with the Prime Minister of Israel and stuff, you can, you can move around as you wish.

Tara Palmeri (18:47)

Yeah, I agree. But also sometimes it's like you need the bureaucrats from time to time. And a Secretary of State is a pretty powerful politician, I would say.

John Seifer (18:55)

But maybe.

Tara Palmeri (18:55)

What is he going to do?

John Seifer (18:56)

But what's he going to do for. I mean, he met him once. My guess would be Bill Burns has met like 150,000 senior people. But I don't know. What, what, what does he want? What, what does he do?

Tara Palmeri (19:08)

Like, I don't know because I think it would be pretty difficult to get an inter. Get a meeting with him. I do think that there is what's interesting. This was after, by the way, that Jeffrey Epstein. I think, I'm pretty sure it was after. Let me check that he went to jail for being a sex offender, which I think is also right, which is.

Adam Davidson (19:25)

What I really want to hone in on. So the, the.

Tara Palmeri (19:28)

Yeah, hold on one second. Bill Burns, Jeffrey Epstein. I just want to find that out before I say that. Here's the other thing. When was it? 2014. Yeah. So this guy's a registered sex offender who procured a minor for prostitution. He's getting a seat with the Deputy Secretary of State who goes on to be CIA director. And here's the one thing I noticed from the, The, the, the emails and all the reporting on his relationship with Jess Staley, who was a senior banker at. Let me get this right before. I, I think he was at Morgan's Stanley at the time. What was just. He was, he was the CEO Barclays before. Okay. He was at JP Morgan. So when he was at JP Morgan, he was Epstein's banker even after the sex offender, sex offense. And the thing that was so interesting to me is that when things weren't going well with Jess Staley and, And he had, you know, set Jesse up with women, Snow White and Beauty and the Beast and just Staley admitted to having an affair with a woman who he met through Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein. And they had maintained this relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And that. That relationship with JP Morgan really sort of allowed him to get back into. Re. Ingratiate himself into these upper classes. So this was very valuable for him. And Jess vouched for him and so did a number of others at the highest levels. But the point is that when Jess Staley started to be. Started to see that he was getting pushed out of the bank, Jeffrey Epstein helped him land a job as CEO of Barclays Bank. He was certainly connecting and fixing and doing things for all these wealthy and powerful men. They weren't just around him for just like, oh, yeah, Jeffrey Epstein's a laugh. What a great time that creepo is. There was something in it for them.

John Seifer (21:16)

And, and it's. And it is partly him providing women at parties and things. Or what's the. What's the.

Tara Palmeri (21:23)

I think it was partially providing women. Money laundering. I think it was trafficking. I think putting money offshore. You know, it's. I do think a big part of it, though, is like, once he knew that you did something that would cause social embarrassment, he didn't have to say it to you, but there was a known imply. It's like just like a, an implied knowing. And when he asked you to invest, you did it. I mean, we saw Mark Rowan, who led Apollo Hedge Fund, give Epstein hundreds of million dollars. It's crazy. For estate planning and tax purposes. Jeffrey Epstein wasn't some, like, master estate planner. And I think it's like the reason I keep going back to the banking industry is because at least you can follow the money there.

Adam Davidson (22:17)

Yeah.

Tara Palmeri (22:18)

You know what I'm saying? Where it's a little bit more difficult when it comes to influence, because I think that's what we're talking about right now is influence and information and how that is so valuable in government.

Adam Davidson (22:29)

So what you do right so it's for former agency officers. I mean, we would have like a large, you know, we would meet hundreds of people. If you're on a diplomatic tour, you'd meet hundreds of people and you would play off that. Oh, I know. So. And so you, when you call somebody new, it's like, oh, we have someone in common. And you name them, like, okay, have lunch. But then there's a weaning process. So the fact that some Jeffrey Epstein or a CIA officer meets somebody doesn't mean much if it's one or two meetings. But we're also trying to figure out is, are there vulnerabilities here? Are there, Is this person useful to me? And there's a sort of a weening, weeding out process. And so for, for Jeffrey Epstein, I, I, my sense is, and I, I is just based on how I know, understand how things works. There's a large funnel on one end where he's trying to meet everybody. And he's also trying to figure out who he can, you know, who is of use to him, who's blackmailable, who was looking for women, who is looking for, you know, things that only he can provide. And I don't think every person who met him is, but, but I think, you know, those are the people he focused on. So just for starters, though, so he's fired from this job, you know, at the high school, and, and he ends up with the head running the head of. Was it Victoria's Secret? Right. Running the finances for this guy who, who owns Victoria's Secret. Wex.

Tara Palmeri (23:53)

Well, I'm. Was Les Wexner his first job? I don't think it was. I think he did the Ponzi scheme first, and then he worked at Bear Stearns, then Les Wexner. But it's then how far the relationship was and all. And what he did for Les Wexner, who was the founder of Victoria's Secret, he wasn't actually working for the company. He was managing his personal wealth.

Adam Davidson (24:15)

That's right, managing his wealth. And the same for the, the, the, the store, Was it something or other in Fitch?

John Seifer (24:21)

Right, It's Abercrombie and Fitch.

Tara Palmeri (24:23)

They own what's called L Brands. They own Bath and Body Works, basically. They own malls. Everything you see in a mall, they own that.

Adam Davidson (24:30)

Okay. And he was doing the same thing, man, managing wealth. One of the most juice I'd like to dive into, though, is, is how his human trafficking that apparently he was like, deeply involved in. And one of the mysteries for me is in the US if there were hundreds of women who were abused this way taken to the island. It seems to me, at least now, a lot of them would be willing to come forward. But my understanding is a lot of these women were pulled out of, like, Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, you know, the former Soviet Union, Russia, which means that there would be money involved, which means that there would be room for Russian, you know, Russian intelligence services and Mafioso to get involved in this. It would also be one reason why, one, none of these women would come forward because they're like, hey, we. You know, we've got Natasha in Moscow, and if you like, with us, you know, we'll.

John Seifer (25:26)

We'll.

Adam Davidson (25:26)

We'll. You know, we'll have her talk. Right. That gives them, the Russians control as well. So. So what is your sense of now of, like, what do we understand about the human trafficking network that. That Jeffrey Epstein was, I think, clearly involved in? Because that would also involve money transfers, travel. There would be digital dust. Right. You've got to write back. There'd be somehow emails back and forth, communication involved. I mean, all these things. You can't do this without. Yeah. Without all these trails.

Tara Palmeri (26:00)

Okay, so there were a number of girls that he found from Eastern Europe, Asia, et cetera. We don't know these girls. Like, they haven't come forward. In fact, it's mostly the American girls. And if you notice it, and by girls, I mean, they're women now. They're my age. They. There's probably only about two dozen of them that have come forward, I think, and the FBI estimated a thousand, which probably means there's even more victims.

Adam Davidson (26:25)

Right.

Tara Palmeri (26:25)

So a big part of that is fear. Fear because of the men involved in these circles. Fear. Some of them just received NDA payouts. Some of them are just afraid because they know what could happen to them, or they don't want to deal with the stress, or they don't want people to know, or they have shame. There's so many different reasons why, but in particular, when it comes to the girls that were foreign, I think they use that modeling agency to traffic girls. That was certainly a way to do that. They would find them and recruit them to be models. And they. And some of the girl. These girls thought, oh, wow, well, you mean he. You're friends with the owner of Victoria's Secret. It's my big break. And then here they are. And they are. They have their passports taken from them. They are his sex slaves. They live in his house. You know, some of them just. And some of them stayed with him For a long time. Maybe Stockholm syndrome trauma. I can't, I, I don't understand that, but I can only imagine what that's like. Now. I also know from Virginia Dufrey that you, that she would be sent out to other countries like Thailand. And she said, and he said, go find me twins in Thailand. So she would go to Thailand, she went to Thailand and that's actually when she escaped him and she met her husband, married him instantly just to get away from him, then moved to Australia to be as far away from Epstein as she could possibly be after years and years of sexual abuse from very high ranking people in government. You know, she accused Ehud Barack of raping her. She accused George Mitchell, a senator from Maine. She accused Bill Richardson. They're dead. She accused a number of others. And you know, this is, this, this was the kind of set that she was around. And so she felt that the safest place for her to be would be in Australia. She finally comes forward about her story about Prince Andrew in 2010. And then about a decade later, the crown, actually almost two decades, actually two, two decades later, to be, to be frank, they come forward and they pay her a historic settlement. But that's all to say it was an international scheme. You can see from the flight logs they're constantly moving around. They were. But then they also had their, their micro, I'd call it micro, but pyramid scheme that they ran through this Palm beach high school where they told the girls, if you bring another girl, you get 300. And I don't think that they, I think they were actually pretty smart about it. And they very rarely brought too many of the high school girls over to. And by smart, I mean they tried to minimize some risk. And they used more of the foreign girls when they were moving them abroad. Although Virginia, you can see in the flight logs, was traveling all over the world with them. And I would just think international, international sex trafficking is terrible. And yeah, so they, you were, you were saying about foreigners. I, I think foreign women. And I think that was through the modeling promises because that's the kind of, for, that's a, that was a common thing and seemed plausible and especially for some of these women that are coming from Eastern Europe and Russia or some of these.

John Seifer (29:37)

Why does Ghislaine, why does Ghislaine Maxwell get so involved? And what little I've looked at it looks like she actually did some of this stuff before she even met Epstein, like for. Related to her father and some of his activities. And maybe.

Tara Palmeri (29:51)

Really I never heard that. Tell me about that, actually, I will.

John Seifer (29:54)

Send you an article that I just read about. That doesn't mean it's true. But, like. Yeah, but why. Why would she.

Tara Palmeri (29:59)

Why, like, curate the. Curate his Rolodex? Or do you mean find women for him?

John Seifer (30:04)

Find women. Like, what's it. What's in it for her to find women for Jeffrey?

Adam Davidson (30:07)

There were. Yeah, there were reports of her bringing, like, you know, posh but not particularly smart women over to the house, and people were commenting on this. And of course, her father was older but fabulously wealthy, and he can make your career or not.

Tara Palmeri (30:23)

So I did not know this, that she was trafficking for her father.

Adam Davidson (30:26)

Well, there's allegations of it, yes.

Tara Palmeri (30:28)

Allegations of trafficking for her father. You know, that might make sense. I always thought they had a twisted relationship based on my reporting and how he. He would. He was actually pretty abusive to her, the way that he speak to her. But he also had this weird relationship with her where they were meow at each other. And I know it's very weird. And he praised her for her beauty, but he said, you know, she's my favorite. She looks the most like me. And she's. She's the most like me. So he had this. So he had the. She. He had this sort of kind of like a. A wifelike relationship with her in the same way that Trump has with Ivanka. He would take her to events.

Adam Davidson (31:06)

We've been doing this for 20 minutes, and we still haven't mentioned Trump yet, right? We're still.

Tara Palmeri (31:10)

Yeah, well, I'm about to mention him. And you go. And then Adam Johnson.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (31:13)

Yeah. You guys know that Tara and I are dear friends and worked very closely together.

Adam Davidson (31:17)

She's been talking shit about you.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (31:19)

Oh, really?

Tara Palmeri (31:20)

Yeah, I said that. I was like, I was brought into this story, this wild story through Adam Davidson, and we will never, I hope to get down to the bottom of it, but I don't know if we ever will. But, yeah, yeah. Robert Maxwell treated Glenn much like Trump treats Ivanka, where he sees her as an accessory. He liked to bring her to parties. He felt like she would take the place of the wife. And. And. And actually, you know, Glenn met Trump through her father. He tried to. She tried to sell Donald Trump gifts. These, like, Maxwell corporate gifts, and they would go to parties on the Hudson, and their relationship goes back because he was the owner of the Daily News, and they all go way, way back.

John Seifer (32:07)

We have our colleague Adam Davidson here with us, too. So, Adam, as we talk about Epstein stuff, this is really hard for us because we talk about Conspiracy theories. This thing is so crazy and there's so many people. You could just list all of the people and the places and the names. And it sounds like you're trying to create a conspiracy because it's like this person knows that person. This person worked here and this has money and the money came here and the girl. But, like, a lot of that's true. So, like. And a lot of it is out there now. So why is it this not actually all pulled together so that for people.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (32:36)

Who want to know, it was, you know, so. Hi, Tara. Tara and I worked together on this story for a very intense year or more. And I think we both went, like, went through a lot.

Tara Palmeri (32:55)

Yes. It's a dark one.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (32:56)

It's a dark one. I first heard about Jeffrey Epstein on the set of the Big Short just to name drop. Like, I was advising Adam McKay, the writer, director, and like in between takes, he had just somehow learned about Jeffrey EPSTEIN. This is 2015. And I remember being like, I was on set as like the journalist expert to talk about finance. And I like condescendingly said, no, none of what you're saying is possible because if that were true, everyone would know about it. And it would be like all those people would be in jail. It can't be. Sure enough, it was the rare case where completely batshit conspiracy theory turned out to be completely true. And I think, I mean, this is. Tara, you and I, this is. What is so difficult for us emotionally is like, it's, you know, I think there are things we feel like we know that we can't even say because of legal reasons or because we were told it by people who, you know, victims who asked us to keep it secret. It is even worse. It is even more people. And what's amazing is it really implicates. It's not just many of the most respected people or most powerful people in the world. Institutions, Harvard, mit, you know.

Tara Palmeri (34:20)

Yeah.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (34:22)

So it made me think, like, if you're gonna do a conspiracy, why not you should make it as big as possible and touch as many people as possible. Because it's harder, you know, if it was like 15 bank managers in Joplin, Missouri, like, maybe you could bring it down.

Adam Davidson (34:42)

But anyway, Aleksandar, could you take us through one? A bite sized piece of this Alex Acosta, right? He gives a sweetheart deal to. He gives a sweetheart deal to Epstein and, you know, maybe getting Trump off the hook and other people. And then later he's named Secretary of Labor. You know, how does this. He ends up on the Cabinet So could you take us through the. The Alex Acosta bit and, like, what your sense is the mystery and the conspiracy theory part of it or. Conspiracy.

Tara Palmeri (35:18)

Yeah, I mean, I have to. I have to agree with Adam on that. It does feel like everybody. It's like this secret that's just tying them all together. It's a kind of consensual secret. And it. And if they let the. The house of dominoes fall or the house of cards fall, then they all go down together. So they have to keep it up. Alex Acosta. I don't know if there is a direct line between Alex Acosta and this deal and becoming the Secretary of Labor, but I have to say that, you know, he dealt with a lot of very prominent Republicans at the time to deal with it. You know, Ken Starr, who has a lot. Who has a lot of influence in the party. Jay Lefkowitz. Now Alan Dershowitz, who has a lot of prominence in the Republican Party. Bill Barr, at the time was, I think, deputy Attorney General under Bush. It went all the way up this. This case went all the way up to Gonzalez, who was AG at the time under Bush. So I, you know, to deal with a kind of sensitive type of case, he's getting this type of exposure. Probably puts him on, like, federalist lists that maybe he wasn't at at the time. Maybe it helps him with his buddies in Washington. I. I don't have any direct, like, hand. Oh, there was a handshake. And then Alex Acosta and three administrations later would be on the right list. But. What is that noise?

John Seifer (36:34)

I think that's Adam making noises.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (36:35)

Did I. Sorry.

John Seifer (36:37)

I don't know.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (36:39)

Yeah. And, Tara, one thing that I find, like, so head messing with is, like, on this show, most conspiracies, it's like, you just dismiss, like, come on. Like, it's not like Alex Acosta signed a secret deal to. But with this, the things we know happened are the same kinds of things as Alex Acosta became Labor Secretary because he protected bad people. We don't know if that's true. Right. We don't have evidence that that's true.

Adam Davidson (37:09)

Would know what was in the fil. He would know, like, who was implicated and.

Tara Palmeri (37:14)

Yeah, for sure.

Adam Davidson (37:15)

And so later, it's like, I want to keep him, you know, keep him sweet. So I'm not claiming that there was, like, a written conspiracy.

John Seifer (37:21)

You're being a little bit of a conspiracy theorist.

Adam Davidson (37:23)

I. Animated.

Tara Palmeri (37:24)

But that's back in a big way. Maybe he was like, hey, I know what's going in The Epstein files make me your ag.

John Seifer (37:30)

So if you have a big conspiracy, it's very easy to now hang conspiracies off of it. And so the one that seems to be the one that's we're focused on now is Trump. Is Trump tied to it? They were best friends, he introduced his wife, blah, blah, blah. From your experience, Adam and Tara, do you think Trump is a central player in the ugliness of this? Or he's just another one of these big shots that made his way through the process? Because that's the big conspiracy that's hanging off this massive, serious conspiracy.

Tara Palmeri (38:03)

I think it's central to all of it. I think it's partially why this story has come back in such a way, because in someone's like, make it go away, you're wondering why, why, why, why, why? And the more evidence comes out, it's like, whoa, these guys were as close as we believe they were. They were very good friends. They liked. The thing that bonded them was their love of women. Hmm. He's on the jet a bunch of times. He's in the book a bazillion times. He's writing, you know, cards about their secret trysts. What more is there? They have a common friend in Paolo Zompoli, who allegedly introduced Trump to Melania. It's just like they're who you and.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (38:45)

I had a very weird and fun afternoon with, if you remember.

John Seifer (38:48)

Tara, do tell.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (38:50)

No, no, nothing. Yeah, nothing. Salacious. Just. Just an interview. But I mean, I think that. So on the list of things that are upsetting about this story, so what? One thing is that Tara and I learned is that in the early 90s, in New York, in Europe, there was this. Wasn't that like. I think Epstein stood out as unusually voracious, unusually calculating. But I think a lot, I mean, we talked to models who said like, that was that whole scene of like 16 year old girls, rich guys. There was a bunch of locations in Europe, in the Caribbean, in New York, in Palm beach, and older rich men having sex with teenage girls was. I mean, I don't know how to say it other than it was widely accepted as not a weird thing. I mean, I remember, I mean, we heard so many stories. I think you see it getting more unusual and, and certainly by the early 2000s, there's no question, I mean, he himself says it. Trump was central to that party scene, certainly in the New York part of it and in the Florida part of it. I think that if you were around those parties in the early 90s, the mid-90s and someone said, hey, who's, like, central to this? I do think you would have said Donald Trump. Like you. You. He was a key figure. It's not just he's the president now, so we're picking him out. Um, although it's, you know, we don't have. I don't think we have any evidence that he. The way I look at it, for all the people who spent time with Epstein more than just a really casual moment, is if they didn't have sex with young girls, it wasn't because they.

Adam Davidson (40:43)

It.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (40:44)

It was available to them, and they knew it was available to them. So the best you can say for anybody who spent serious time with him is they were at. In a setting where other men were clearly having sex with young girls, and they didn't. And they didn't do anything about it.

Tara Palmeri (41:01)

But also, Jeffrey kind of pushed them on that. He pushed the girls on them. He wanted you to do it because he knew and that they may be underage or it might be illegal or he liked. And that was the bacchanal kind of environment that you got. And I think that in some ways, he groomed the elites around him, and so did Glenn Maxwell. Why she was so central to all of this, into thinking like, this is totally normal and nothing's gonna happen. And it's great time. Just come by Jeffrey Epstein's We're a good time. It's like the frat house. It's fun, you know.

John Seifer (41:32)

Then there's the twist that he would try to use this, and that's, you know, because obviously if you're doing this, you know, you're either just a sexual psychopath or you're trying to do it for a reason. And if I recall, this wasn't Bill Gates along one time, and then he tried. And Bill Gates was cheating on his wife, and Epstein then tried to use that as extortion against Bill Gates. And Bill Gates came out publicly and then got divorced and all those kind of things.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (41:56)

Well, his wife says that it was a relationship and it was what he was doing with Epstein that led to the divorce. Can I ask. I had two things I wanted to ask. So one is just. Have you talked about intelligence? Because I feel like when I was working with Tara, I didn't know any spooks. And now I know two CIA former case officers. And I feel like one thing you have convinced me of is the idea that Jeffrey Epstein is an intelligence. That he is himself an officer of either the Mossad or the CIA is very unlikely. And that is a very rampant rumor. It's possible he's an asset or it's unlikely he's a run asset where everything he did was driven. Right. So can you talk about that? Because that is a very persistent rumor. I mean, he might be a guy who talks to intelligence people. Right? I mean, there's lots of those people. I mean, I might be one of those people. Right, so talk about that. Like, why it just doesn't make any sense to you that he might be in.

John Seifer (43:05)

I did a podcast with Tara.

Tara Palmeri (43:06)

I actually am going to have to dip out of this one because although we did do a podcast on this, actually.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (43:11)

You did, you did. Okay, sorry, I didn't see that one.

Tara Palmeri (43:14)

No, no, no, it's great. I'm gonna plug my show and run just because I hit. I've hit that moment that I have got this meeting at 4, but thank you guys for having me. And everyone should stick around because the answer to this is really great. And check out my show, the Tara Palmeri show. My substack throughout.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (43:28)

The other question was I was going to ask how you're doing.

Tara Palmeri (43:34)

I'm good.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (43:35)

Because I've largely left this story other than talking to you about it, because it's so. I don't know, it's just emotionally. I mean, for me, it's not that Epstein is ugly. He is ugly. He's really ugly. What's ugly is how hard it is to. That there's all these other men walking around without any. And I found it really emotionally challenging. So at some point, I want to hear your thoughts on how you do this.

Tara Palmeri (44:00)

Yeah, I'm. I've actually, I'm trying to give myself a little bit of a breather from it because it is emotionally challenging. And it's not just the injustice of it all, but also the survivors seeing that, how they're going through it. It's like, watch. Seeing their, you know, reactions to all this up close. Their disappointment in, you know, elected officials who won't vote and, you know, the. The hold up on these bills. It's like. It's got wrenching. And I think also just talking and thinking about a really depraved story can really get to you. And so I do it.

John Seifer (44:36)

More than just a story getting to you. Does. Does. Does anybody come after you for this? Like, obviously such a big hot button issue now, politically, Are people attacking you because you're looking into it?

Tara Palmeri (44:46)

Yeah, I mean, people are always attacking journalists, so kind of used to that. But I. Maybe more so than not, but I've always kind of. I try to always go after the stories that are a bit, you know, I like to go after the power center. So usually get attacked when you do that. But I don't know, it's hard to.

Colleague/Producer (possibly a journalist or co-host) (45:04)

Say, but you gotta go more or less.

Adam Davidson (45:05)

Yeah.

Tara Palmeri (45:06)

Yeah. I do have to jump, but let, let. You guys need to talk about the idea that we can do that to intelligence, because that is interesting to me and I. I know, I know we talked about it before and I'm sure your listeners would want to know, too. Okay, perfect. Thank you guys. That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri Show. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you like this show, please follow, subscribe, Rate it, share it with all of your friends. If you like my reporting, go to tarapalmieri.com that's T A R a P a L m e r I.com and sign up for my newsletter with a red letter. By becoming a paid subscriber, you can get all of my investigative journalism straight to your inbox. I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenante. I want to thank Abby Baker, who's doing my social media and research, Adam Stewart on the graphics, and Dan Rosen, my manager. See you again soon. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another Smart Choice with Auto quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.