B (3:14)

Yeah, no, likewise. It was a great project.

A (3:17)

Yeah. I hope it made a lot of impact. I hope people felt like their stories were finally being heard, even though it was, sadly, decades and decades later.

B (3:26)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (3:29)

So you've got a new book out, though. God Forgives Brothers Don't. The Long March of Military Education and the Making of American Manhood. And, you know, this story is really about power, but your thesis is that the military is really, like, seeped into. Seeped created a culture of toxic masculinity. Is that fair to say?

B (3:54)

Yeah, you know, I mean, I think that military culture, basic military precepts, contain, like, real positive, aspirational nuggets. You know, things like sacrifice, selflessness, community cohesion. All of these things, I think, like, fundamentally are decent but can be very easily weaponized. And, you know, I mean, there. I think there are moments over American military history where you've seen the military really, you know, rise to the challenge and sort of, like, embrace those in a very pure way. Obviously, sort of World War II comes to mind as maybe the exemplar of that. But, you know, I really think. And the book sort of traces, like, sort of the Cold War period on. A lot of these ideas really got warped, you know, as military brass launched wars based on lies, faulty intelligence, as. As, you know, you see, like, the rise of the special operator and this sort of mercenary mentality where, like, you know, brawn is sort of elevated over brains and. And. And there's sort of this kind of, like, bloodthirsty ethos seeps into certain sections of the military, you know, that I think has had a very, like, devastating effect on, you know, military culture and. And sort of, by extension, you know, civilian masculinity. And honestly, like, Hegseth, you know, I think really epitomizes this. During his confirmation hearing, there was, like, a lot of shock and awe, just about, you know, the allegations pouring out concerning his misogyny, you know, rape allegation, alcohol abuse, just, like, really nasty stuff. Islamophobia But I think, you know, in many ways, Hegseth sort of represents all of these forces colliding. And I think, like, as defense secretary, secretary of war, whatever you want to call it, you can just see, like, a lot of really clear evidence of sort of how debased military culture has become and how it really needs to be reformed.

A (6:12)

Right. I mean, I hate to say this, but it feels very antiquated. It feels very much like the, you know, warrior from a medieval time that, you know, body count was all that mattered, and it wasn't about, you know, actually trying to, you know, to. To.

B (6:31)

To.

A (6:31)

To.

B (6:31)

To.

A (6:32)

To make the bloodshed minimal, but to still win strategically, to use, like you said, brain over brawn. That seems to have flipped in some ways, or maybe it always was that way. And it's an uncomfortable truth we never really wanted to admit.

B (6:47)

Yeah, I mean, certainly, like, bloodshed is an inevitability with warfare. But you're right. I mean, as warfare advances into the 21st century, as technology plays an increasingly prominent role, I think people like Hegseth have become, like, very uncomfortable around their masculinity and very worried that the sort of traditional ways of proving masculinity through strength and aggression and brutality are becoming less accessible. So, you know, I mean, we live in a world now where like, you know, a drone operator.

A (7:25)

I was just gonna say that, you know, he can.

B (7:28)

He can get a higher body count than a special operator, than a Navy seal. And so, like, this is all very confusing to people like Hegseth. And so really, he is just, like, trying desperately to sort of, like, revert back to this old school mentality about body counts, about brutality. I mean, and I think you see, like, a lot of this in the. In the different missions that he's. That he's directing. It's really just about trying to hold on to this old idea of masculinity.

A (7:57)

It's like combat. I mean, that's what. He's essentially valorizing his combat missions. And he wants to make sure that there are fewer women in combat. He has made that very clear. Right. I mean, and trans people, as if any of them would want to join the military at this point. But it's. It certainly feels like his model of. Of masculinity. Yelling at officers, telling them that they're overweight and need to get in better shape, as if they're like, come like GI Joes. You know, there's something to be said about the fact that a lot of these men obviously were middle aged and older. And they weren't brought on for their ability to, you know, hold a rifle and shoot. I mean, they, they've done that time, and now they're thinking about strategy, about, like, how to make sure that when you go into a place and you complete a military operation that you're, that you're not completely decimating it to the point that you're spending more money in future military actions because you've radicalized the people that you've left behind. Or the infrastructure left behind is so depleted that we end up having to spend more money, like thinking long game strategy, understanding the people you're fighting, where they are, not just like going in there willy nilly. Like it's like a terrorist attack, essentially.

B (9:16)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think a lot of this stems from the fact that Hegseth just generally does not hold a, like, advanced understanding of warfare tactics, things like this. You know, I mean, most, virtually all the defense secretaries that have come before him went to a service academy or, you know, like some other, like, post higher education military training apparatus, whether that's a war college or an institute. Like, these people focus very aggressively. They fixate on the sort of broader apparatus of war fighting. Hegseth, meanwhile, you know, is like pumping iron on Fox News and just has like a very sort of simplified, reduced, reductive idea of just like, you know, musculature being the only thing that wins wars. So really he can't sort of like, pull any larger ideas into his orbit. And I think he's like, he's just, just reflexively rejects it because of that. He just doesn't have that experience. What he does have is, you know, he looks the part. He's obviously like, he does sort of look like a GI Joe. I think that's part of the reason Trump really likes him. He knows, you know, the jargon he loved. You know, he can effectively say fuck around and find out, like, he's just like, he's good at sort of posing as this ideal soldier, but really that's not enough to, you know, win battles on the world stage.

A (10:48)

Yeah, no, I know. It's, it's interesting with, you know, the President Trump's central casting idea, but he's 45 years old. I mean, I, I look at that and I'm like, is that enough time that afterwards you spent all of this, all of the time after you served and nothing to take away from his service and how long people serve? But then you went on to Fox News. And I say this as someone who works as a journalist and has worked on TV before. And it's like, really? That's the guy that you're going to make the Secretary of War? Excuse me. It's like. And even the name alone, I mean, it's so aggressive. It's. It's interesting to me. I read your bachelor piece, and it was really about Hegseth, and I'm sure a lot of that is in your book, but about his father and how he just doesn't. He didn't really respect his dad because his dad didn't teach him how to be aggressive. And he felt like that's. That's the duty of a man is to teach their son how to be aggressive.

B (11:49)

Yeah, I mean, you know, there are sort of like, I think with so many members of the Trump cabinet, you can sort of like break out their policy actions and their sort of policy beliefs and then their own, like, psychological hang ups. And, you know, Hegseth is somebody who from a very early age was uncomfortable with his manhood. I think he, you know, he was pretty quiet as a kid, not nearly as aggressive as he is today. And in his memoir, he makes very clear that he was kind of ashamed by his father. You know, his father was hardworking and he was a good dad, but at the end of the day, he just was not aggressive. He did not teach Pete how to be a badass, really, how to be strong, how to fight for things. And so, you know, there's sort of this mythological moment where Pete meets a Vietnam veteran at a parade in Minneapolis as a kid, and I think, like really becomes captured by this idea of service. You know, I mean, here's like a war hero in a parade, someone who went through this incredibly intense experience and came out of it. And so like, really as a boy, Hegseth just sort of like sets his sights on the military. Feels like this is the proving ground that can sort of, you know, help him move beyond his father's weakness. And he's really been chasing that forever. Like, there's, there's a lot of, I think really when, when it comes down to it, Pete Hickseith is like a very sort of self conscious guy. Like, he's built such a, you know, edifice around himself. Like it's all so over the top. There's no. It's hard to sort of like get beyond, you know, the sort of like Fox News personality. Especially look at his early years, you know, going to Princeton, dating a woman who went to Barnard, which is an all women's school. Like there were, there were parts back then where that don't mesh at all with who he is today. It feels like there was a sensitivity back then that he has, like, really pushed down because he's very ashamed by it.

A (13:55)

Yeah, no, the evolution of Pete Hegseth. When I read that, it was shocking to me that he was this. I'm saving myself for marriage. Straight edge kid who drank mountain dew in high school and had straight A's. I mean, I even thought to myself, I'm like, how did this guy go to Princeton? You know? But then when I read about him, I'm like, okay. He was pretty straight edge. And he adored his girlfriend. He wanted to marry her. They won most likely to get married in the. In the yearbook. Although he did say he wanted to be rolling in dough one day. He wanted money. Your piece is great on Baffler. I'm sure you write even more about it in the book, which is why you should all be following Jasper's work. But I felt like I got to understand him more. And then he goes to college and there's no more constraints, and he turns into this frat boy. I mean, I don't know if he was actually in a frat, but if he feels fratty, like, even from the way that, you know, he reacted to the vagina monologues on campus. Because I remember. I don't know if that was popular when you were in school, but the vagina monologues were really big, saying, you know, take back the night marches. And apparently you wrote that he. He was playing plastering around campus. My penis wants to come out, or something along those lines, and was ripping down vagina monologue, I guess, posters for the event. It just seems so aggressive.

B (15:13)

Yeah, well, I mean, you are right to sort of put your finger on Pete Hegseth as a frat boy. Princeton does not have frats, but it has these, like, supper clubs that are sort of very frat like. And Hegseth was a part of one of those. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, there's like, that old sort of stereotype that the kids in high school who are, like, the most straight edge and sort of, like, buttoned up and sort of, like, you know, reigned in kind of explode in college once. Yeah, their supervision has dwindled.

A (15:55)

I saw it happen, actually, in school. Like, the number of girls that I became friends with that were coming from boarding schools and places like that, they were just being transported to the hospital. They called them transports to Sibley because they were drinking. And I remember when I went to school, like, I'd Already drank in high school. So by the time I got to college, I was like, okay, I'm good. Two beers has to be covered. I'm not having any jungle juice that's probably filled with roofies. I felt like I was ready for college. Like, I was actually just, like, afraid of it in some ways. But, yeah, you're right. Some people, they finally are outside of the thumb of their parents or wherever they were being constrained, and they just wanted. Wild.

B (16:32)

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I think, like. Yeah. So Hegseth just sort of becomes unleashed at Princeton. You know, he's in an ROTC program. So he's. And he's really, like, identifying himself at a very early age by his masculine. By his military masculinity. You know, like, people told me that Hegseth would, like, wear his military ROTC uniform around campus, which, like, most ROTC people wouldn't do.

A (17:00)

Like, kind of corny, right? It's a little corny, yes.

B (17:04)

Super corny. I mean, he's super corny. I mean, he got into. He did, like, a. He did, like, a duel with, like, a Princeton Democrat where they each had, like, paintball guns, and Hegseth shot him in the crotch. And, like, you know, it's all very. But, you know, like, I think Hagset's deep misogyny and. And. And hatred, really, of women is born out of a fear that, like, women could sort of usurp him militarily. And, you know, if there are women in the military who are outperforming a man like Pete Hegseth, then that throws your masculinity into question. You know, like, if there's a woman who. To rack up a higher body count than you, then. Then you feel emasculated.

A (17:50)

Yeah. I wanted to actually ask you about that. This woman that you wrote about. Her name. Her last name. Sorry. I want to get her name correct. But she won a silver. A silver medal. Leanne Hester, for one of her missions. It was actually a combat mission, and Hegseth has a bronze. And you said that he has this very weird relationship with Harley. Can you explain to me. Explain to the audience first, why she won the silver, Silver Medal of Valor and why Pete Hegseth is so jealous of it?

B (18:25)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so Leanne Hester, like, Pete Hegseth, was in the National Guard, called up to Iraq in the early years of the war. And, you know, back then, women were not allowed in combat roles on paper, but because, you know, there was just fighting on all sides, like, women were often Finding themselves in combat environments. And the. An Hester was one. One such case. She was doing convoy security. And one day in Iraq, she was basically, you know, in a long line of troop transport trucks, and one of them got hit with an rpg. All of a sudden, she is surrounded by combatants and basically stays incredibly cool headed. Directs her National Guard unit, the Ravens, to basically return fire. Then they flank, like, it's all very, like, classic military tactics. Flank the combatants. She and others kill all of them. Wow. 50 or so they kill. A couple of her platoon mates are wounded, but they all survive. It honestly was one of like, the first really, like, just valorous moments in the war in Iraq and, you know, really injects public confidence into. To the whole enterprise. Like, Leanne Hester overnight becomes a hero, national hero, gets the Silver Star. She's the first woman to get the Silver Star since World War II for combat valor. And so then you sort of. You compare that to Pete Hegseth, who arrives actually in Iraq just a few months after this firefight. He's also in the National Guard. He's also overseeing the platoon. And, you know, unlike Leanne Hester, Pete Exet's deployment is nothing special. I don't mean to diminish it. Like, he was in a combat zone, and it was an intense deployment, to be sure, but there is nothing that even comes close to the sort of heroics that Leanne Hester demonstrated that day. So whereas she gets the Silver Star, Pete Hegseth gets a Bronze Star. And I should note, it's a Bronze Star without valor. There's two types, and the Bronze Star that he got is famous in military circles for being given out to needy officers who are, like, so desperate for some metal on their chest. So that's what Pete Hegseth gets. Twenty years later, after all of this in one of his books, Pete Hegseth is still fixating on Leanne Hester, saying, oh, you know, the awards process was rigged. Why did she get this? This is dei. Like, you can sort of see how this one moment crystallizes this for Hegseth, where he's like, I cannot be out by a woman. Like, the. The damage that that must do to his ego is so all consuming that it's. It's motivating now. Like, all of these insane decisions throughout the. The largest bureaucracy in America, and it's really these petty gripes, these emotional issues that are pushing this whole agenda forward.

A (21:36)

Yeah, I would love to hear more about this seeping misogyny in the institution, like, how the misogyny is just like, just burrowing in, in, in like, real concrete way, is that that will impact the institution for years to come. And how war in general?

B (21:56)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, Pete Hegseth has basically eliminated any sorts of. And there were a number of them that were started in the war on terror, a number of programs meant to basically elevate women. Like, women were not really elevated militarily until the war on terror, partly just because manpower needs were so high. And so there were a number of programs, imperfect ones, put into, like, basically, you know, elevate women who deserve to be at higher ranks, but had just been sort of languishing because of institutional forces and were able to get into real, you know, powerful positions. Like the first four star General Ann Dunwoody secured that status in, like, 2008. You know, a number of other women were elevated. Women have been in combat roles for a number of years. By all accounts, they're doing well. And, you know, I mean, they're passing like, another sort of fallacy that. That Hegseth is fixating on is, is that there are separate standards for men and women to get into these elite units. That's not true. But yet still, what he's doing now is like creating new sort of like, lethality metrics and other ways to just keep women out of any of these senior positions, to keep them out of fighting positions. Like, he's. He's really trying to revert the entire bureaucracy back to the 1980s. In fact, the 1990s, really. He. That's when he had that big speech in front of the generals where he called them out as fat and lazy and, you know, needing beards and all that. He said, let's get back to the 90s, which I think is a really interesting thing for him to say.

A (23:33)

Yeah, no one's saying that. Let's go make America great again. When men were controlling every single.

B (23:40)

Yeah, yeah. And the 90s is also when the biggest military sexual misconduct scandal in its history exploded Tailhook, in which a bunch of naval aviators in a single night sexually assaulted like, 80, 90 women at, like, a drunken, chaotic conference in Las Vegas. So it's just.

A (24:03)

It feels like there's so much sexual assault in the military. I mean, even just the fact that we know Nancy Mace was sexually assaulted at the Citadel. We know Joni Ernst, who was forced to really, like, an insane political pressure campaign where they were spending millions of dollars in her backyard for her to vote to confirm Pete Hexap. And she had her own experience of Sexual assault in the military. And obviously we know that Pete has been accused by multiple women of sexual assault. It's. It's a. It's a problem.

B (24:32)

Absolutely. And you know, I mean, that's the other thing. I'm glad you brought it up. A number of programs were set up during the first Bush term to deal with sexual assault. Like sexual assault response coordinators were created and stationed all at bases across America. As best I can tell from sources like, those programs are effectively dead. I doubt that there will be reporting on sexual misconduct in the military moving forward. I mean, we're seeing now that the annual suicide report that the military puts out has not. Has essentially been shielded. So I think sexual assault is going to spike. It's already at levels, but we'll never.

A (25:15)

Really know because the reporting, it's not going to be transparent. Right. Like, I mean, who can they report to, right?

B (25:21)

Absolutely not.

A (25:22)

Retribution, really.

B (25:25)

And that's always been a problem in the military. I mean, that's the other crazy thing about all of this is for Hegseth to like cast the military as woke dei, like not lethal enough. I mean, what are we talking about? This is an institution that is still incredibly anti women where it's far easier to be elevated if you're a white man, especially a conservative man like this. This institution does just fine for men like Pete Hegseth. And yet it is still not enough for him. And he still needs to revert it back to some old school, you know, bro mentality. I mean, the guys he's brought in are like classically fratty too. I mean, his, his former chief of staff Joe Casper into meeting to talk about like a visit to the strip club. Like, these guys are just like total, you know, frat bro central casting. Absolutely.

A (26:16)

I mean, I think you could see it from his text messages too. On signal with like pow.

B (26:21)

Yeah.

A (26:21)

Fire like American flag muscles. It's like, oh God. So you're right. It's so fratty.

B (26:29)

Yeah.

A (26:29)

And it makes me wonder though, I mean, obviously, like also makes me think to myself, like, our entire government is being controlled by men with daddy issues right now. From Trump to J.D. vance to Hexag. Like people who are making real decisions right now about how about whether we're going to invade Greenland, Iran, Cuba. I don't know if she was on the list. They expect it's just falling. Colombia maybe not so much anymore. Mexico. I mean, like, it's. These are people with daddy issues deciding huge consequential world global order decisions. And they're just like Signal punch. Fire. Yeah. Muscles. What the hell is going on right now? Like, are there any sane minds around? Any cool prevailing. I used, like, people would think, oh, Marco Rubio is the adult in the room. I don't know if that's true anymore.

B (27:25)

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's a really good question because there's kind of this, like, underlying assumption, especially, like, on the left and in mainstream media. Like, the New York Times is always writing these stories where they quote a few senior military officers being like, we really don't approve of what Pete Hegseth is doing, and, you know, like, we're going to make sure that we curb his worst impulses. But. But I'm just not sure that that's happening anymore. I mean, you could see, like, in the first Trump term, there were people like Jim Mattis, people like Mark Kelly or Mark Milley. Excuse me. Who could sort of, like, gum up the works and sort of, like, tame some of Trump's worst impulses, but I just don't see that happening anymore. I mean, like, the. The sort of, like, unhinged military operations that have happened already in year one is insane. I mean, and they've been. They were preceded by gutting a lot of really smart heads by, you know, rearranging the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I mean, there's this guy raising Cain. Michael. Raising Cain, Yeah.

A (28:32)

Raisin. Yeah.

B (28:33)

Staff who, like, seems smart, but clearly he's loyal to Hegseth dictates. And I'm sure that, like, that's why Hegseth likes him. I mean, you see Senator Mark Kelly and others making that video urging military brass to refuse illegal orders. And Hegseth getting really upset about that. I think that's because he is trying very explicitly to create unquestioning loyalty and obedience. I mean, the other thing, too, is that, like, military. The military is really built around a sanctity towards the hierarchy and following orders and respecting those who rank above you. And so I think it is. We're sort of entering a period now where I think it's going to be really hard to tame Hegseth's Trump's impulses. I think the people in there now at key areas, from the hierarchy, from the top to the bottom, are down for this campaign and for this vision.

A (29:33)

Yeah. Okay. So for everyone who's listening, as our last question, what should we watch in the next six to 12 months that would be indicators that things are getting worse, not better, inside of the Pentagon?

B (29:46)

Well, I mean, I think that the midterms are going to be really interesting and how the military is stationed or isn't stationed in the run up to that election. I mean, you know, people often forget that January 6th was an insurrection largely planned and executed by military veterans. There was also a lot. There still remain outstanding questions on what Trump's Pentagon was doing in the run up to January 6th. And, you know, I mean, the, the fact of the matter is if Trump wants to attempt to hold on to power beyond 2028, he needs the military on his side to help him execute that mission. I think he knows that. I think Pete Hegseth knows that. And I think that, you know, if we see the National Guard or other military units stationed for intimidating purposes around the midterms to try to swing that election, we will be in very deep trouble.

A (30:52)

Okay, Jasper, what a very happy note to end on. Everybody go out and go buy Jasper's new book, God Forgives Brothers, the Long March of Military Education and the Making of American Manhood. We are understanding the largest, as you said, bureaucracy in our country by reading this book. And the man leading it all, Pete Hagseth, just, yeah, that's where we're gonna end it. I hope all those women hang in there until the end because I hope that the next person comes in, reminds them that it's not just, you know, who belongs, it matters who's ready. And, and that brain does matter in military. Not just brawn. We might as well be just fighting with, like, swords if we're gonna be like that. You know, it's coming.

B (31:47)

I'm sure it's coming.

A (31:50)

All right. Thank you, Jasper.

B (31:52)

Thanks.

A (31:53)

That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri Show. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you like this show, please subscribe. Subscribe Rate Follow Share it with your friends. Tell me all about it in the comments. If you want to support my independent journalism and get some exclusive reporting straight to your inbox, go to tarapalmieri.com that's T A R A P A L-M-R-I dot com. Sign up for my newsletter, the Red Letter. It's how you can support independent journalism and get access to the best journalism. Straight to your inbox. I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenate. I want to thank Abby Baker, who does my socials and research. I want to thank Dan Schiffmacher, who is doing editing and producing, plus Adam Stewart on the thumbnails. And Dan Rosen, my manager. See you again soon. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make Another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.