Alex Wagner (5:13)

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Nicole Wallace (5:52)

It's 4 o' clock in New York. Donald Trump's political albatross has now come knocking on the door of the Oval Office. Now that the bill to release all files related to the criminal case of Donald Trump's former friend, the dead sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, has passed with near unanimous support from Congress, all that's left is Donald Trump's signature. Once the bill is signed, Team Trump will be stuck in a trap largely of their own making. The administration could have fulfilled a campaign pledge and released all the files months ago. Remember this? It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. I'm reviewing that. But now, after months of stonewalling, the Trump administration is bound by law, a law just passed by Congress to release all of the Epstein files. And, and frankly, the world is watching to see if there's any chance they comply. Here's what Attorney General Pam Bondi had to say when she was asked if the investigation Trump ordered into Democrats will be an excuse to stop the release on the Epstein files. Does the new investigation by the Southern District of New York, U.S. attorney prevent.

Alex Wagner (7:01)

The department from releasing all of the remaining files?

Nicole Wallace (7:04)

So we have released 33,000, over 33,000 Epstein documents two to the Hill and will continue to follow the law and to have maximum transparency. Also, we will always encourage all victims.

Tara Palmeri (7:19)

To come forward.

Nicole Wallace (7:22)

Following the law and maximum transparency when it comes to the Epstein files. Public isn't buying it. Those are two things this Department of Justice is not known for, even among Republicans. Again, if Pam Bondi wanted transparency when it comes to the Epstein material, she could have released the files instead of publishing an unsigned memo that said she wasn't gonna that sought to sweep the whole thing under the rug. Comments like her comments today, though, are part of a pattern by Team Trump that suggests anything but maximum transparency. From that unsigned memo back in July to the shifting explanations for why Epstein and Trump had a falling out, to the preferential treatment the Trump administration has given to Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. On that front, NBC News has some new reporting that the Bureau of Prisons has fired the whistleblower who alleged to House Democrats that Maxwell was getting, quote, VIP treatment, as Congressman Jamie Raskin describes it, from that new reporting, quote, a whistleblower who came forward to House Democrats alleging convicted sex offender Ghislaine Maxwell received preferential treatment at a federal prison camp in Texas says she was not motivated by politics. Instead, quote, this. This was about common human decency in doing what's right for all inmates. That was Noella Turnage, a nurse who worked at the federal prison camp, camp Bryan, since 2019. She said that the Federal Bureau of Prisons fired her on November 10. The decision came one day after the top Democrat on the committee, Congressman Jamie Raskin, wrote a letter to President Donald Trump saying they had received information from a whistleblower indicating Maxwell was working on filing a commutation application and receiving special treatment not typically afforded to inmates at Bryan. A brand new chapter in the push for transparency around the Epstein case is where we start today. Joining us, Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He's a ranking member of the House Oversight Committee. He has been pivotal in the push for the release of the Epstein files. Did you think 2472 hours ago, that the vote to release the files would be near unanimous in the House and the Senate?

Robert Garcia (9:37)

I did not. I mean, look, we were hoping that we could get maybe first 12 to 20 Republicans just a week ago. Then it became clear that we might get up to 100 Republicans just a few days ago. And then, of course, with Trump's complete panic when he knew he was going to lose the vote in a spectacular way, only then did we, of course, see the speaker and others chime in where the vote became essentially unanimous and the action, of course, of the Senate. This is a huge win for transparency, for the American public, for good government. But most importantly, this is a win for the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, who have been demanding action now for years. And so it's a good day for this country. But there is a lot of work ahead of us in future.

Nicole Wallace (10:25)

Let me center our conversation then around the victims. Here is an Epstein survivor talking about something that people don't always remember that they hold, and that is the power to name names if they choose to. Let me play that for you. Let me ask you something else, because.

Tara Palmeri (10:46)

Again, it's much bigger than a couple of people.

Nicole Wallace (10:50)

Were you trafficked to other people? What do I.

Tara Palmeri (11:01)

Can I.

Alex Wagner (11:02)

You can say yes, but you don't.

Tara Palmeri (11:04)

Have to name names.

Nicole Wallace (11:06)

You only share what you want to share.

Tara Palmeri (11:08)

You don't have to be sorry for anything.

Nicole Wallace (11:10)

And I'm asking you this because I.

Tara Palmeri (11:12)

Think it's important to understand, as people do understand about Virginia's story, that it's.

Nicole Wallace (11:17)

Not about just one person or two people. It's much bigger than that. You can share whatever you want to share. Terrible things had happened to me within my time with dealing with Jeffrey Epstein. I had encounters with people that I would rather not have.

Robert Garcia (11:40)

I think there's a lot of. A lot of people that just want them to release the names. They're like, well, you have the names. Just do it. The problem with that is that these rich and powerful men, a, they can sue you into. Into homelessness would be a big part of it. But B, it puts serious threat on your life and your family's life. There were times where my sister was sitting across people and they would push a picture of her own children in front of her and essentially say, I know where your kids go to school.

Nicole Wallace (12:10)

I know where your kids go to school. This is what the victims are dealing with right now.

Robert Garcia (12:17)

That's right. And Nicole, I've spent some time talking to some of these survivors one on one. Whenever I can, I do that. I just did so a few days ago with another survivor. And one of the stories that she shared was about her sensing and knowing that she was being watched and that her home was being. Was being essentially watched and followed and that she really feared the safety for herself and her family. So you can only imagine when some of the most powerful men in the country with unlimited resources and unlimited connections to the highest levels of government, what that feels like to be surviving, to know the trauma you've been through, but want to just protect your family, yourself and your friends. And so we have to allow these survivors to tell their story on their time. But rest assured, the oversight committee, and certainly Democrats on that committee, we are taking great care in our conversations with these survivors. And they're providing us very important information that we're very grateful for.

Nicole Wallace (13:19)

Who's watching them?

Robert Garcia (13:23)

We look, we. The question. Who's following them?

Nicole Wallace (13:28)

Who's following them? Yeah, I mean, is it a government official or a private person's?

Robert Garcia (13:35)

You know, I'm not gonna. I think that oftentimes they're not sure. And, you know, I'm not going to speak for all of them. In the conversations that I have had, I know of two survivors that directly told me that they certainly felt that they were being watched in the past and that there was some type of surveillance happening that they felt to themselves and their family. And that's very serious. And so that's something that we are. We take very seriously. And their protection and their safety in this moment is incredibly important to us. And we know that right now Donald Trump has the power to release the files. He didn't need the vote in the Congress, he didn't need the subpoena the Oversight Committee Democrats place on the files. Yet he continues to deny justice and closure and some sense of being able to move forward for these women and their families. And so this is an important moment right now where there's progress being made. But there's a lot of work ahead of us on the financial documents, on ensuring the files are released by the doj, on Pam Bondi being held accountable for her actions. And those are things you're going to hear a lot about in the coming days. If Donald Trump in the White House thinks that we're slowing down or this is over, they are, they are mistaken. We are actually just beginning this work.

Nicole Wallace (14:56)

What does it even mean that Trump has ordered an investigation into Democrats? If you're investigating the deceased sex offender, don't you start with the known criminals Epstein and Maxwell and follow the facts? I mean, what do you understand the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, Jay Clayton, to have undertaken an investigation whose ends are known or an actual fact driven investigation?

Robert Garcia (15:26)

Nicole, this is a really good question. I want to actually make something really clear. I've heard some discussion on, on your network and others about the difference between, for example, the discharge petition that Congress voted on almost unanimously and the subpoena that's in place that the Oversight Committee put in place. They both ask for the same things, which are full release of the documents. Pam Bondi in the clip you showed earlier said, well, we've already released 33,000 documents. That's because oversight Democrats force a subpoena to, that's currently still in place for all of the documents. And she was responding to that subpoena. Now, we know that those documents were essentially already available to the public. So it was just a smokescreen. But that's, that was a response to our subpoena. The discharge petition and the law in front of the president is another way of getting the documents. But here's where this investigation you're discussing is important. We know that that is a sham investigation. We believe it's being set up because in the, in the law that was passed in the Khanna and Massey bill, there is a provision in there that essentially speaks to that, that the Department of Justice is able to possibly withhold some materials if there is an ongoing federal investigation. This has been discussed at length. And so folks are worried is Pam Bondi, is Donald Trump, are they launching an investigation particularly this one against Democrats to use it as a way to stop the release of the files and of this bill. And that is a critical concern. What has not been discussed in the last few days and I purposely, we've been focused on this bill. I want to remind the attorney general and the public that our subpoena does not have that language. And so if the attorney general wants to use her sham investigation in the Southern District of New York to withhold evidence and documents on the bill that the president will hopefully just about to sign, she can't do the same for our subpoena. She is still legally obligated, regardless of any investigation, to produce every single document, photo, video or material that she has in the possession of the DOJ to the Oversight Committee. That's something that we have not talked about a lot in the last few days because our focus is on this bill. But you can believe that in the next few days and weeks ahead, we're going to remind you, the DOJ that her investigation she might try to use to stop the effort in the full House. She can't use that to stop the effort we have in the Oversight Committee.

Nicole Wallace (17:59)

Let me just ask you a follow up question about that. So that material is the substance that multiple news organizations reported Cash Patel and Pam Bondi had, I think hundreds of FBI agents pour through to be able to flag all the mentions of Donald Trump in the files. That is a knowable and quantifiable amount of, of paper and electronic data. And you're saying that is all to be responsive to the subpoena, that all has to be released?

Robert Garcia (18:30)

Right. And so it all has to be released. So and as a reminder, some of the public, you know, sometimes gets confusing. The initial 33,000 documents released by the DOJ was in response to the subpoena by the Oversight Committee since then, including like the birthday book and last week's trove of emails that came through a subpoena by Oversight Democrats to the Epstein estate, which is not the doj. And so all the materials and documents we've received up to this point have been through subpoena through the Oversight Committee. Those documents will continue to come to our committee, including the estate. So the president may try to slow down the documents that will be released to the public and the full Congress through the Thomas and Khanna bill. But he can't actually slow down or stop the flow of documents are going to come to the committee. And I think it's an important distinction. The American public should feel heartened that we already know that, regardless of Donald Trump's actions at the doj. We're going to get more documents from the Epstein estate. They've already told us as much. And we'll be disclosing those to the public when we get those.

Nicole Wallace (19:38)

Has this oversight committee subpoenaed the Federal Bureau of Prisons to, to investigate the claims by the whistleblower about the treatment of Ghislaine Maxwell?

Robert Garcia (19:48)

So we're actually working with Judiciary on that very question right now. And we have, we have numerous letters, we have an investigation open on Ghislaine Maxwell. We've partnered with Jamie Raskin on Judiciary. What's happened there is completely outrageous and part obviously of this larger conversation. I mean, it is crazy that this monster, this liar, this trafficker, an abuser herself, is being moved and is now in this less secure facility, essentially receiving VIP treatment. And yet the DOJ won't answer who actually ordered that move. No one will answer that question. And so this idea now that somehow by Donald Trump signing the bill is somehow about transparency and he wants to release the files. Give me a break. Donald Trump is leading the White House cover up. He's directing likely this move of Ghislaine Maxwell or certainly Todd Blanche or someone is at the doj. And of course, he was Donald Trump's personal lawyer before this job. So this is a complex issue, but an important one. And in the weeks ahead, we're going to work on getting the financial records, we're going to press the Epstein estate for more documents. And if Pam Bondi cries foul on her on her sham investigation and tries to stop the files from being released to the public and the Congress, we will remind her that our subpoena does not include that same language that Massie put in their bill.

Nicole Wallace (21:12)

One more question for you. Would you, with all of this bipartisan momentum and with Trump's credibility on this issue, with his own base collapsing, would you subpoena Maureen Comey, who was the prosecutor who did a lot of the sensitive work around the sex crimes themselves and who has the trust and confidence of the victims?

Robert Garcia (21:39)

We would, we would absolutely want to talk to every single person involved. I will say that we're also, you know, we're having many conversations, not all of which are public. And we have requested numerous conversations and depositions with a variety of people. Some require subpoenas, other are voluntary. And so we are working through that process. But anyone that has information on this, on this investigation should contact us. We've had contact, by the way, from whistleblowers on this investigation to those in the FBI that might be watching right now to the good civil servants, to the men and women who have worked on this case, there are hundreds of you out there that know what are in the Epstein files. Thank you for your work. And we're grateful because they know what's in them. And any destruction, any sort of move by the DOJ to destroy records or not give them to us, I think will be met by good civil servants responding in a strong way.

Nicole Wallace (22:39)

Do you have reason to believe that documents are being destroyed at the FBI?

Robert Garcia (22:46)

I believe that Donald Trump and Pambandi are willing to do whatever it takes to protect Donald Trump and the very wealthy men in this country that have hurt women. And I think that that is something that we have to take very seriously. Obviously, there is I don't have immediate evidence in front of me right now of something happening. I certainly am worried about it, as should the American people.

Nicole Wallace (23:10)

Carson, Robert Garcia, in the middle of every aspect of this story. Thank you very much for your time today for starting us. We're going to sneak in a quick break and then bring in our panel to follow up on everything we just heard from the congressman. Also ahead for us, whether it's berating one reporter and insulting another, Donald Trump's treatment of women, especially female journalists now asking questions about this vote and Jeffrey Epstein are back in the spotlight. We'll talk more about that. Also had a dramatic day in court, one that suggested the case against Jim Comey is at risk of possibly being thrown out. The Justice Department today admitted that the grand jury never even reviewed the final indictment of Jim Comey. We'll dive into all that reporting. And later in the broadcast, there are some new and telling signs of polling cratering for Donald Trump and his MAGA movement. It's not permanent, but it is real. All of that and much more when Deadline WHITE HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Shopping is hard, right?

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Robert Garcia (24:29)

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Nicole Wallace (24:31)

Make style easy. Get started today@stitchfix.com Spotify. That's stitchfix.com Spotify. I want to bring in two of my most favorite people to talk to about anything, but especially this story. My friend and colleague, senior political analyst Alex Wagner. She's a contributing Host on Pod Save America and the host of the podcast Runaway Country. And Tara Palmeri, she writes the Red Letter on Substack and has hosted two acclaimed podcast series on the Epstein case called Broken Jeffrey Epstein and Power the Maxwells. I'm sorry, that went long. We were hoping to bring you in sooner. And then the conversation said that thing about being worried that the FBI speaking directly to public servants at the FBI and basically imploring them to be faithful to their offices, to the Constitution, and said he wouldn't rule out that Donald Trump could do anything and everything to protect Donald Trump, including potentially or possibly destroying evidence. What did you think about that, Alex? Did you hear that as sort of shockingly as I did?

Alex Wagner (25:34)

Yes, absolutely. I mean, nothing should shock us at this point. I actually, for my podcast, interviewed one of the Epstein survivors, Marina Lacerda, and she said the same thing to me. She was very worried that there were redactions happening, just, you know, document destruction happening. Things were happening either during the shutdown or now to prevent the full truth from coming out, which should shock the conscience of everybody again. It's hard to do that in the age of Trump. But the idea that the COVID up of the government, of the government cover up now is at the very, very top of the power pyramid and maybe the President instructing his Attorney General to destroy documents that have been demanded by not only the American people, but the entirety, setting Clay Higgins aside of the U.S. legislative branch. It's a shocker, Nicole. And I gotta say, the importance for this coming out isn't just to hold those in power accountable, but talking to this victim that I did today, she said, I can't even remember a lot of the stuff that happened to me because my brain has basically blacked it out. I need to see those videotape tapes because I need to remember, I need to know definitively in order to begin to heal. There is a personal investment these women have in the truth coming out that actually is, I think, deeper and more emotionally wrenching than I had ever even fathomed. So for both them and the country, we can not let anything happen to these files. And I thought Congressman Garcia issuing a not so subtle warning, saying people in the FBI know what's in those files and if anything's missing, they're gonna raise their hands. That to me was, that's. I have not seen that in American politics.

Nicole Wallace (27:12)

Me neither. And I wish you were both sitting at the table with me because my jaw dropped when he said that. I mean, look, this is reflected now. This is bigger than Any of us. It is really the public that has seen the victims. And Tara, you've been centered on them the whole time you've been covering this. But this. And I may eat the words that I uttered going into break when I said, Donald Trump's poll numbers have cratered and that may not be permanent. Who knows, right? I mean, these are his poll numbers on the approval of handling of the Epstein files. 20% approved, 60% disapprove. And Reuters, is the government hiding Epstein's alleged client list? 70% of all Americans say yes. Only 8% don't think they're doing that. I mean, everybody knows that. When Pam Bondi went on TV and said, the list is on my desk, you know, they had all the power, they had all the momentum and they were much more politically powerful at that point. She had no reason to lie about it then. So everything she's done is downstream from saying that publicly. What do you make of this moment?

Tara Palmeri (28:19)

I just don't know of anything that 70% of Americans can all agree on at this point. I mean, we are so divided. So to see that sort of unanimous support is amazing. I do want to touch on the point that just made about Trump's name possibly being redacted. Bloomberg actually reported back in August when they made a Freedom of Information request. So they were asking for some of the files that they found out through their sources that the team that was reviewing the Epstein files was redacting Trump's name from the files already. So they've already started this and they, they already started this back in August. So they've had a lot of time, the team, to go through all 330 gigabytes and start blocking out his name, which they found when they received some of these, these files back, that Trump's name was no longer in them. So I have no doubt that this is what they are frantically doing and they've got a really short deadline, they have a month before they have to hand over these, these gigabytes. But we know that they can always say there's an open investigation now that they're targeting Democrats. They can say, you know, this is an ongoing investigation, we can't hand over evidence. That's basically what they've been saying all along, right? They've always said this is an ongoing investigation and that's why we can't hold hand over evidence. And now that they've opened it, they have the same exact excuse again. But I just think this is really going to backfire if the American people feel like they're just getting more redactions, blank lines, just black, black, black, black, black lines all over the place. That's, that's what it is right now.

Robert Garcia (29:53)

Yeah.

Nicole Wallace (29:53)

I mean, Alex, the two things they've come up with are open an investigation into Democrats, which I don't, I've covered Trump for nine years. I don't actually know what that means. The convicted sex offender is Maxwell. They moved her from low security to scant security. I don't know the proper term. Prison. And there's no evidence that they're reinvestigating her. But we know she's a, it's a known. Known that she is a convicted child sex trafficker. And Jeffrey Epstein. Right. Files that they won't release. But now they're investigating Democrats. I mean, what do you understand to be under investigation right now by Jay Clayton, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York?

Alex Wagner (30:37)

I mean, I think the point is just to say you're investigating Democrats and draw a line in the sand, maybe use it for some purpose to forego giving the full documents to the American or to Congress. But I mean, we know from Jim Comey and any other number of investigations at Trump's direction that this is just about redirection and smearing the reputations of people who are critical of him. I mean, the idea that the President is going to get away with this excuse, or I should say the Attorney General could just hide behind these open investigations, I think is a gross miscalculation of the moment. I mean, keep, keep in mind that Trump made his about face on Sunday not because he was bowing to, I don't know, principle, not that he knows what that is, but it's because of political reality. And the fact of the matter is the reason we are in this position where Congress unanimously again accepting Clay Higgins, said we want transparency is because Trump's own people, the MAGA base, talked to their representatives and said, well, we want transparency, we want the truth. When Marjorie Taylor Greene went home to Georgia for those 40 odd days, she got calls from her constituents saying, stand strong, don't cave. Same with Lauren Boebert. Same with Nancy Mace. MAGA understands victimhood and we often malign the sort of grievance, victimhood part of this game. But they are very acutely attuned to the dynamic between victim and predator to a rigged system. They are not gonna give up on this. And the rest of the American public understands this as well. Trump is not gonna be able to make an exc of a Democratic investigation and say we can't Give you everything that Congress voted for. The political reality is what it is, and it is overwhelming.

Nicole Wallace (32:23)

Well, and I guess, Tara, if Democrats are swept up in this, I mean, the transparency effort is for outing everybody that trafficked in women. So it's a straw man. There's no one for protecting Democrats who were child sex trafficker. Everyone is for releasing all the materials. I want to show you, Congressman Ro Khanna was talking about some of what Alex is getting at that this is now. So many things that happen are in Trump's narrative sort of command and control. This is totally seeped out. Let me show you what he said about that.

Tara Palmeri (32:55)

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Tara Palmeri (33:09)

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Ro Khanna (33:24)

I was going to places like Johnstown, Pennsylvania, and going to places like Warren, Ohio. And when I was there, the issue would come up about the Epstein class. That's what they called it. They said, well, are you on the side of the forgotten Americans or on the side of the Epstein class? And I realized how much the abuse by rich and powerful men of young girls and this sense of a rape island that Epstein had set up for people embodied the corruption of government. And then many of them saw Donald Trump as fighting this corrupt government and standing up for forgotten Americans. And this was the symbol for the most disgusting abuse and corruption of our government. And so when the issue came up that Pam Bondi said that there was nothing to release, I knew that this was a betrayal of the core promise that Trump had made to MAGA voters. And I, I said we should push for the release. And I put out some tweet initially, and then we introduced a bill. And then Massey and I have worked together for years. We have a real friendships. And he called me and he said, well, why don't we try to collaborate on this instead of just doing something partisan and I think we can reshape the coalition.

Nicole Wallace (34:42)

Tara, this is the best explanation for people like me who are late to this story, that this is the symbol for the most disgusting abuse and corruption of our government. This is a symbol of everything that's been hidden and for whom. For the rich and powerful men.

Tara Palmeri (34:58)

It's a simple story. It's a story of the haves and the have nots, it's the people who can live without impunity, who do not have to face justice and so therefore can act however they want. But this is one of the most gross examples of injustice because it's the preying on of children. And everyone can agree that this is the most foul of crimes. Pedophiles in prison, they don't do well in prison. I mean, they often are killed by fellow inmates because they are seen as so despicable to other felons that they don't, that they don't even want to live among them. If you have a history of sexual assault, especially with the child, your entire neighborhood has to be notified. Part of Meghan's law. I mean, these people can't live in residential neighborhoods. And the idea that this man could cavort with some of the most powerful people in the world after returning from prison, as a sex offender, from jail, county jail, where he only had an ankle bracelet, and that he could live with such impunity and actually just go back into the high life as if nothing had happened at all. It just rings true for so many Americans. No matter what your race is. I think for most people, I mean, this is really a story about the 1% and how they can act. And I think the rest of America is just tired of it and, and I think they always have been. And I think that's why it's also gripped the MAGA base, particularly because of the victimhood, like you said earlier. But it's, it's now just become a thing where if it's going all the way up to the highest levels of power, the President of the United States, then that even it just, it is such a gross injustice that it has to be reckoned with.

Nicole Wallace (36:42)

And their, and their jam is that everything Trump does to protect himself damages Trump politically. And the only thing he could do to save himself is the one thing he won't do, which is to open up the floodgates of information, unredact his own name and let everyone see what's in there. So it really is everything you both say it is, and there's no one better to talk to about it. Tara Palmer, thank you for being here today. Alex sticks around after the break for us. Questions about Trump's ties to Jeffrey Epstein have triggered another gross but sadly familiar trend. And how he engages and speaks to female reporters. We'll show you what that looks like next.

Tara Palmeri (37:25)

That was another episode of the Tara Palmeri Show. If you like this show, please rate, subscribe, comment Share this with all of your friends. If you like my reporting, go to tarapaumari.com and sign up for my newsletter, the Red Letter. It's how you can get my exclusive reporting straight to your inbox. By becoming a paid subscriber, you get exclusives first, and it's a way to support my independent journalism. I want to thank my producer, Eric Gabonate. I want to thank Abby Baker, who does my social media and research. And I want to thank Adam Stewart on the graphics. See you again tomorrow.