The Reporting Rocking Washington: Inside Trump’s Chaotic White House with Chris Whipple

Summary

---

The Tara Palmeri Show

Episode: The Reporting Rocking Washington: Inside Trump’s Chaotic White House
Guest: Chris Whipple
Air Date: December 17, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this high-voltage episode, Tara Palmeri sits down with acclaimed journalist Chris Whipple to dissect his explosive new Vanity Fair exposé on the inner workings of Trump’s White House, focusing on the enigmatic Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles. The conversation unpacks Whipple’s unprecedented access, jaw-dropping on-the-record admissions from Wiles, and their broader implications for the power dynamics, loyalty, and fractures within Trump 2.0. Palmeri and Whipple explore whether this landmark reporting could re-open the floodgates of White House leaks—heralding a return to the chaos of Trump’s first term.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Landing the Blockbuster Interview

• How Whipple Got the Interview:
  Chris Whipple recounts how he first connected with Susie Wiles just before she assumed the role of chief of staff, initially reaching out for his book on campaign managers.

  • Notable Quote:
    “Every once in a while in a reporter’s career, lightning strikes. And this was just one of those cases…” (04:44, Whipple)
  • Wiles was “astonishingly on the record from day one”—a rare event for a sitting White House chief of staff.

• Why Did Wiles Talk?
  Whipple dismisses “three-dimensional chess” theories, asserting that Wiles simply wanted the Trump White House to “get a fair hearing.”

  • Notable Quote:
    “Sometimes more than sometimes, almost always, people just want to talk. They want to tell you their story.” (07:28, Whipple)

2. Explosive Revelations from Susie Wiles

• Unprecedented Candor
  • Described Trump as having an "alcoholic personality."
  • Labeled JD Vance a “conspiracy theorist.”
  • Accused Attorney General Pam Bondi of “whiffing” on the Epstein files.
  • Explicitly admits the prosecution of Letitia James for mortgage fraud is “an act of retribution.”
  • Admitted Trump lied about Bill Clinton visiting Epstein's island.
  • Conceded administration is pushing for regime change in Venezuela and does not trust Putin’s “Ukraine” declarations.
• Why It Matters:
  These admissions are shocking, as White House officials are typically guarded and off the record. The sheer openness is unprecedented.

3. Wiles’ Role & Power in the White House

• Whipple’s Analysis:
  Wiles possesses a unique, trusted bond with Trump, unlike her predecessors—she is not a traditional “gatekeeper.”

  • Unlike previous chiefs (Priebus, Klain, Meadows), Wiles has “magic” in managing Trump, smoothing internal operations and curbing chaos.
  • Notable Quote:
    “He trusts her. Trump trusts her. He never had any trust in her predecessors... The first term was a killing field where White House chiefs went to die.” (15:39, Whipple)

• Is She a Sycophant or Enabler?
  Palmeri prompts: given her strategies stem from growing up with an alcoholic father, is Wiles simply enabling Trump?

  • Whipple counters that, unlike Mark Meadows (“a glorified maitre d’”), Wiles has attempted to act as a brake on Trump's excesses, though she’s increasingly “all in.”
  • Notable Quotes:
    • “A good White House chief of staff, an empowered White House chief of staff, needs to be able to do that, in my view.” (17:58, Whipple)

4. The What, Why, and Fallout of the Exposé

• Fact-Checking and Pushback:
  Whipple details the exhaustive fact-checking process—“everything is on tape”—and notes that the White House could not dispute a single assertion.
• Trump & Allies’ Response:
  • Instead of denying Wiles’ quotes, allies (even Trump & JD Vance) publicly admitted they were accurate, albeit with some attempting to reframe the context.

5. White House Unity, Leaks, and What’s Next

• Palmeri’s Observation:
  Staffers’ silence is due to fear and loyalty to Wiles—could her own candor “break the dam” and unleash new leaks?

  • Whipple believes her internal authority is likely to endure, thanks to Trump’s deep trust.
  • Notable Quote:
    “When Susie makes an order… they follow.” (23:35, Whipple)

• Changing Ecosystem:

  • The Trump Hotel (a previous haunt for off-the-record info) is gone; the White House is more disciplined and less factional than in the past.

• No More ‘Den of Vipers’?
  The administration is more unified, with less backstabbing and leaking, a notable contrast to Trump 1.0.

6. Assessment of Trump 2.0

• Is It More Unified?
  Yes, largely due to Wiles’ disciplined management.
• Is It Still Chaotic?
  Some chaos remains, but it’s less public and more internally contained.
• Why Doesn’t Trump Fire People Anymore?
  Whipple suggests Trump believes past high-profile firings (e.g., Flynn) “fed the sharks,” so now he avoids public dismissals to deny the media “scalps.”
  • Notable Quote:
    “I think that when that happens, it stiffens his spine… he doesn’t want to feed us. We’re the beast. He doesn’t want to feed us.” (29:25, Whipple)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “She described the president as having what she calls an alcoholic personality… labels JD Vance a conspiracy theorist… accuses Attorney General Pam Bondi of completely whiffing on the Epstein files…” – Tara Palmeri (02:00)
• “Susie, to her credit, was really not only on the record, but I think, remarkably candid and unguarded.” – Chris Whipple (05:52)
• “It’s a mistake to think that anything in the Trump White House is three-dimensional chess.” – Chris Whipple (07:02)
• “She’s maybe talked once before… she’s the Greta Garbo of White House chiefs. She just doesn’t, you know, she likes to be off camera.” – Tara Palmeri (08:36)
• “The big overarching question… can she perform the most important duty of all, which is to walk into the Oval and tell the president what he doesn’t want to hear?” – Chris Whipple (17:21)
• “I do think that Trump’s Meadows was a sycophant. I think Susie is different…” – Chris Whipple (19:06)
• “When Susie makes an order… they follow.” – Chris Whipple (23:35)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:30] – Palmeri’s introduction & recap of the Vanity Fair scoop
• [04:27] – Whipple explains how he secured access to Wiles
• [06:53] – Why Wiles spoke so openly
• [09:13] – Palmeri presses on the potential evolution of Wiles’ narrative
• [12:50] – Discussion of Wiles’ actual power as chief of staff
• [15:38] – Anecdote: Chief of staff dinner and “Don’t talk to Whipple”
• [18:34] – Palmeri and Whipple debate Wiles as enabler vs. sycophant
• [20:43] – Evidence of Wiles checking Trump’s excesses
• [24:54] – How Wiles sees the Epstein file issue and Bondi’s position
• [27:30] – Will this lead to more leaks from the White House?
• [28:35] – Why Trump avoids firing people in Trump 2.0

---

Conclusion

A must-listen for political junkies, this episode offers an unvarnished look into Trump’s second White House and the pivotal role Susie Wiles plays at its center. Whipple and Palmeri crack open the White House’s tightly controlled messaging, revealing both how power is really wielded—and the ongoing risks to institutional stability. The conversation’s tone is sharp, insightful, and carries the electricity of having real, source-level access at the highest level of American politics.

Recommended Reading:

• Whipple’s full Vanity Fair story for the on-the-record blockbuster interviews
• Tara Palmeri’s “Red Letter” for in-depth reporting on the new conservative landscape in DC

---

For more: Subscribe to The Red Letter or follow Tara Palmeri on X, Instagram, or Substack.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[B]

Foreign.

[A]

Welcome to the Tara Palmeri Show. My guest today is the man that everyone in Washington, D.C. is talking about, Chris Whipple. He has an extraordinary piece of reporting out of the White House for Vanity Fair. It's the first real eye opening account of how that place is really run. Now I've reported for the Red Letter on the dysfunction inside like my piece Fear and Loathing in the West Wing, which you can find by going to tarapalmieri.com and signing up for the Red Letter. It's how you can support my independent journalism and read these types of exclusives. What people are really talking about in Washington. And in the piece and in others, I've talked about how Chief of Staff Susie Wiles feels about her colleagues from background sources, what's happening behind the scenes, but always from people who aren't willing to use their names. But this time all of the quotes are coming from Susie Wiles herself. On the record. It's her first time speaking on the record since she became chief of staff nearly a year ago and she is more than candid. Here are just a few of the shocking details from the very typically quiet chief of staff, a woman who generally likes to be near the boom mic away from the shot. She is not one who loves the limelight, unlike her boss. She described the president as having what she calls an alcoholic personality. She labels JD Vance a conspiracy theorist. She accuses Attorney General Pam Bondi of completely whiffing on the Epstein files. She openly admits that the prosecution of Tish James for mortgage fraud is an act of retribution. Obviously, this acknowledgment could completely undermine the prosecution. She also makes clear that the President was lying when he claimed that Bill Clinton had visited Jeffrey Epstein's private island. She also said that they were Playboy pals when they were 50s, when they were friends back in the day. But beyond the domestic chaos that she also comments on, which is another reason why you should go out and read Vanity Fair. I also have a piece in Vanity Fair in this January edition, so you should go and read that as well. She essentially concedes that the administration is pushing for regime change in Venezuela and that when Vladimir Putin says that he doesn't want all of Ukraine, they Don't really believe it. And the talks are not going nearly as well as the White House has publicly suggested. So like I said, this isn't just candid. It's explosive. And I've got the reporter, the man who got inside, on the line. He takes us inside to how he actually got this together, how he had this level of access and what these revelations tell us about the power dynamics and the fractures inside of this White House. I also wonder how much his piece will impact the unity of the White House moving forward. A lot of these sources that I have, you know, White House officials, they don't speak out. They're pretty reticent because they're afraid of Susie Wiles and they're following her precedent of keeping a tight lip. But now that she spilled the beans, will this be a leaker White House again? Is it going to be more like Trump 1.0? I think so. Now, there were some technical difficulties. So you can hear my excitement when Chris joins the show. It was on the Red Letter Live. And it's another reason to join because you. You can watch my exclusive interviews first on the Red Letter Live, and you can send in your questions in real time, which is very exciting. Right? All right, take a listen here. A mochi moment from Mark, who writes, I just want to thank you for making GLP1s affordable. What would have been over $1,000 a month is just $99 a month with Mochi money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight. Three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet.

[B]

You're the best.

[A]

Thanks, Mark. I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com.

[B]

Mark is a Mochi member compensated for his story?

[A]

Well, I just went through the whole piece with everyone. I filibustered for 20 minutes. It's pretty impressive. I didn't even know I could do that. So thank you so much for coming.

[B]

Well done.

[A]

Congratulations on that amazing piece. And I think.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Everyone in the journalistic community at least, is wondering, how'd you do it? How did you get this amazing access?

[B]

You know, it began, first of all, every once in a while in a reporter's career, lightning strikes. And this was just one of those cases, I think. I mean, I first reached out to her back in January, 10 days before she started as White House chief of staff. She was driving from Mar A Lago to her house in Pontevedra. I was at the time working on a book, which I'm still working on. I've had a few other things on my plate, but a book on the history of presidential campaign managers. And so we connected. And shortly thereafter, as our conversations evolved, it became really clear to me that she felt the Trump White House, the first time around Trump 1.0, had been unfairly treated, had been vilified by the press, in her view, and that she thought that I could give her a fair hearing. And we kept. So we began talking more and more about Trump 2.0, about the White House as opposed to the campaign, and pretty soon that became the only subject. And then I came back to her and said, but this was early on, I came back to her and said, guess what? Vanity Fair wants to do a big story. And she said, fantastic. Congratulations. She was all in. And from day one, from the get go, she was astonishingly on the record from day one. And that never happens, rarely happens with senior White House officials. I wrote a book about the Biden White House. Ron Klain was always on deep background, you know, and other White House officials. But Susie, to her credit, was really not only on the record, but I think, remarkably candid and unguarded. And after a while, she, you know, we just kept talking. She just kept talking, and here we are.

[A]

Why do you think she was so candid?

[B]

I'll tell you what, I've heard every theory in the book, you know, the four dimensional chess and, you know, strategically positioning herself for the post Trump career and undercutting her rivals and all the rest. And. And I just don't buy any of it. I do think that it's a mistake to think that anything in the Trump White House is three dimensional chess. I think what happened was that Susie just became comfortable with having somebody that she thought would give her a fair hearing. Talking and talking it out. Talking, talking it through. I ran into Walter Isaacson this morning in the green room at Morning Joe, and, you know, he's a great biographer. And we were talking about how, you know, sometimes more than sometimes, almost always, people just want to talk. They want to tell you their story.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, but the thing is, every journalist would like to hear her story. She's maybe talked once before to or twice. I think she did a piece in the Atlantic and I kind of felt that that piece with Chris La Civita, and it was. Yeah, you know what piece I'm talking about? I'm blanking on the name. Albert. Yeah, he. He wrote a great piece. And then there was, you know, another.

[B]

To be clear, that back during the campaign.

[A]

Yeah, during the campaign. And then before that, during the campaign, she also spoke to NBC, so maybe twice she spoke on the record during this entire time.

[B]

So, yeah, it's like she's the, she's the Greta Garbo of White House chiefs. I mean, she just doesn't, you know, she likes to be off camera. She doesn't like to be out front and telling her story. So I can't tell you, I can't explain to you what she was up to here, other than I think she felt, I really do think that she desperately wanted the Trump White House to get a fair hearing. I think that was her motivation, or at least, you know, I take her at her word that that was it.

[A]

I mean, but some of the things that she said didn't really reflect well on the White House. Like when she called J.D. vance a conspiracy theorist, said Bondi Weft. I mean, how do you think her narrative changed over time? Like, was she at first, like, yes, we need to, it needs to have a fair hearing because it's going to be sparkling and amazing.

[B]

No, no, no, no. None of that, none of that. She was just, she was unguarded and candid and open from the get go. Literally from the first phone call. There was no evolution in that respect. The really interesting evolution, the really fascinating arc of the story in my mind over these 11 months is that early on, on day 56 of the Trump presidency, she told me that she'd made a loose agreement, as she put it, with the President, that the Revenge and Retribution tour would end after 90 days. Now, fast forward months later, I said to her, remember when you told me that the Revenge and Retribution tour would end after 90 days? And she said, oh, well, yeah, I do, but this isn't really a retribution. This isn't really retribution. But then I pressed her and we got into it and I pressed her about Letitia James and she said, oh, well, yeah, that one is words to that effect. Not a direct quote, but very close to that. It was almost a get out of jail free card for Letitia James attorneys. And she was, I can't explain why she said it, but I think that she was just being honest.

[A]

Yeah. So she accused you of misreporting facts and key elements. You obviously had the tapes. I worked.

[B]

I don't think she ever said, I don't forgive me, but I don't think anyone has said misreported. I think they have said a bunch of things they have said out of context. They have said, I didn't say anything positive. They have said that the framing quote Unquote, was somehow off. What that tells you when you hear words like that is that you have absolutely hit your target. What that tells you is that they have nothing that they can dispute. And they haven't disputed, which is why I took issue with misreporting. They haven't disputed a single assertion in the piece or a single quotation. And the reason they haven't is because they know full well that every word is on tape.

[A]

Exactly. So I was going to get to that. She calls Elon Musk and avowed ketamine user, which is something that he has admitted himself, which I was surprised that she took such exception to that. And then. Then you had to show the tapes to the Times just to show that she did actually say that, because she was like, I would have never said that. I mean, how do you. Why would she do. Why would she do that? Why would she.

[B]

I think her concern. Look, I think her concern was that she didn't want to be seen as having direct personal knowledge that Musk was using ketamine when he fired off that crazy tweet, the one about Hitler and Stalin and the others, and she didn't want to be seen as accusing Musk of a crime. Now, Musk, presumably, I think, I believe that Musk was prescribed ketamine for depression. But. But anyway, that. That was her motivation, I believe in. In, you know, she. She wanted to be sure that that was not the impression.

[A]

I want to talk about her power, or to me, it seems like lack of power based on what I've read from you and what I've been reporting myself. So, you know, you. You write her. You write that she's not the traditional gatekeeper, and you wrote the book gatekeepers on chiefs of staff, so you know this better than anyone. How does she strike you as different from them? If you're anything like me, then you hate running around from store to store to store for holiday gifting. But you still want to get people that you love something beautiful, something timeless, something that they will wear for years. And that's why this year, I'm going to quince From Mongolian cashmere sweaters that only cost $50 to Italian wool coats. Everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. I personally wear a lot of their silk tops on this show because they're so reasonably priced, and they're made with premium materials from ethical, trusted factories priced so far below luxury brands. I don't know how they do it. Their craftsmanship is shown in every single detail. The stitching, the fit, the drape. It's elevated. It's timeless. It's, it's clothing you'll wear forever. So if you want to find gifts that you want to keep for yourself, then head to quince.com/tara for free shipping on your order and 365 days of return. They're now available in Canada, too. That's Quince Q U I n c e.com Tara T A R A to get free shipping and 365 days of returns. Quince.com Tara.

[B]

Well, let's take, let's, let's compare her to her predecessors in Trump 1.0. And by the way, there's a very funny story about that that didn't make the cut for the Vanity Fair piece. We had such great material. But In December of 2024, the outgoing White House chief, Jeff Zients invited her as the guest of honor to his house for dinner. And he invited all the ex chiefs, White House chiefs. About eight of them showed up, and they were all giving her, dutifully giving her words of wisdom and advice. And then Reince Priebus came in, barging in at sort of latent, and he began to, he went on a rant about Trump and the futility of trying to be Trump's chief and how crazy it is and throw out the rule book and all this stuff. And they were all looking at him like, what are you doing trashing Trump in front of his close ally and incoming White House chief? And then when he was done, Priebus had one last piece of advice. He said, don't talk to Whipple.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Anyway, it was, you know, I mean, I was told this by multiple sources at the and Reince confirmed it with me. He said, yeah, I meant it, I meant it in a, you know, in a funny way. But anyway, so anyway, the, here's the deal with Susie. I mean, I think that she has, without a doubt, she has a kind of magic when it comes to working with Donald Trump that none of her predecessors had. He trusts her. Trump trusts her. He never had any trust in her predecessors. From Priebus to John Kelly to Mick Mulvaney to Mark Meadows. The first term was a killing field where White House chiefs went to die. And the difference between Trump 2.0 and 1.0 is largely Susie. It's a slight overstatement, but she really has made a difference in the way that she's been able to run the White House. It's no longer a den of internecine warfare and backstabbing and leaking It's a much smoother operation. So that's the plus side of Susie as White House chief. The big overarching question, the $64,000 question, is, can she perform the most important duty of all, which is to walk into the Oval and tell the president what he doesn't want to hear? And again, the Vanity Fair piece, I think, traces this arc, this journey that she takes, where in the beginning, she seems to be trying to do that. She seems to be trying to tap the brakes here and there. She tried to talk him out of a blanket pardon of the January 6th rioters, she argued. She tried to get him to agree to end revenge and retribution after 90 days. She tried in various ways to. To act as a kind of break on his successes. And now I think as time has gone on, I think that she's all in. And she essentially conceded, confessed in the Vanity Fair piece to me that, you know what, I have arguments with him all the time, but it's over the little stuff. In other words, she said, a lot of chiefs have told me about these seminal issues that they've discussed with the president about things that are unconstitutional. She said, I don't have that. But a good White House chief of staff, an empowered White House chief of staff, needs to be able to do that, in my view.

[A]

To me, I read her as enabler. J.D. vance, called her a facilitator. I mean, I. Based on what she said about knowing how to manage an alcoholic's personality because of her father, Pat Summerall, who is a famous broadcaster, but an alcoholic. To me, I think she makes herself small to try to, to survive. And.

[B]

Well, but let me, let me push back on that, because I think there's absolutely no doubt. And I wrote a piece to this effect for the Washington Post calling Mark Meadows the worst chief of staff in modern history because he was a sycophant. He was. I called him. I called him a glorified maitre d. You know, this was. And I do think that Trump's Meadows was a sycophant. I think Susie is different in the sense that. And a real drama of the Verity Fair piece. It's a wild ride where you see her trying, you know, arguing with him about January 6th and trying to fix USAID when it was eviscerated by Musk and trying to tap the brakes on this chaotic tariffs policy. Those are not the actions of a sycophant. So I would push back a little bit on that. I think there's a difference.

[A]

A very. Yeah. Okay, so what power do you think she actually has, again, the power, I.

[B]

Think comes from this unique bond that she has with Donald Trump. Trump trusts her. Everybody knows it. When she opens her mouth, as we saw in their pushback on my piece, the pushback, of course, that was a non denial denial and kind of a non pushback. But as we saw, they all rallied around her. Why? Because they know that she is, she has this indelible bond with Trump. He trusts her. When she opens her mouth, they all know she's speaking for him. That's power.

[A]

Yeah. Is there any evidence, though, that stopped Trump from doing anything?

[B]

Well, you know, again, what there is evidence of and what I, what I describe in the piece is her efforts to check some of his excesses and to argue, argue with him about some, as I say, about January 6, about USAID, about tariffs. And so I do think, again that there's some evidence that she's tried.

[A]

Yeah, she's tried. So, you know, you said that under Susie, they're no longer a den of vipers, that they are united, they're loyal to her. And I, I do agree with you. I think that's part of the reason why you don't see as many leaks is because they are so loyal to her. Even when I wrote that piece about the chaos in the White House, it was all, it was about how they were angry that Elon Musk treated her like a secretary and that she was angry. They were very defensive of her. But do you think this piece, now that she's been so candid on the record, will change that environment, that there will be more leaks, that they will be less loyal to Susie? DSW Designer Shoe Warehouse is the one stop shop for all your footwear needs with sneakers, boots and everything in between for every style, mood and occasion. You'll definitely find shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. DSW has what you need, but more importantly, they have what you didn't even know you wanted. You, you never know what you'll find at dsw. Find the shoes that get you at prices, that get your budget at DSW stores or dsw.com Impossible to say, really.

[B]

I mean, but I doubt it. I mean, I think that they've rallied around her. I think that her position is secure. I think Trump believes in her. We saw him, you know, I mean, I got a nice fact check from him when he said, yeah, I do have an alcoholic's personality. And J.D. vance said, yeah, I am a conspiracy theorist. You know, I mean, it's very odd the way they've Gone out of their way to confirm everything I wrote while pretending to push back. So, look, I just don't think that this is going to. I could be wrong. It's possible that JD Vance is not thrilled by her description of his 180 degree conversion from never Trumper to Trump acolyte. And how she said that was, that was sort of political, she said, unlike her pal Marco, for whom it was principled in her view. So that was fascinating. And maybe that, maybe that pissed off Vance and maybe, maybe that'll have some effect. But boy, I wouldn't against Susie. And I think that Vance and Rubio, if you spend any time around them, and I did a whole day in the White House the day that we, we did the photography, watching them together, boy, I think they, when, when Susie, when Susie makes an order, I mean, they follow.

[A]

I will just chime in that the Vanity Fair fact checking process is extremely rigorous. You have to hand over audio, you.

[B]

Have to hand me about.

[A]

Anything that you infer has to be backed up at points. I was like, do I have to fact check my name? It is, yeah. It is a very extreme process. I have a piece coming out in the same edition about the young Christian conservative movement in Washington. So everybody go out and buy not only Chris's amazing work because, you know, you're going to want to hold on to this one for posterity, but also my pieces in there. I think you'll enjoy it.

[B]

Congrats, Congrats. I can't wait to read it.

[A]

Yeah, it'll be a fun one. But I do want to get back to, you know, she did slag off Pam Bondi too. I mean, does that reflect Trump's view of Bondi? And do you think that reflects that Bondi is not in a safe space because of how she, quote unquote, whiffed on Epstein?

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think it's possible to just overthink all of this. I think that was just Susie's view. I don't think it's Trump sending a signal through her again. I just think there's hardly ever any three dimensional chess going on in that White House. And I think Susie was speaking for herself. She, you know, the whole Epstein thing, her version of it is really interesting and, you know, may or may not be credible to some readers. She says, she argues that she really underestimated the whole Epstein thing, the importance of releasing the Epstein files. She said she thought it was kind of a nothing burger during the campaign, that this was just something that Trump would say along with yeah, let's release mlk, jfk, rfk, and Epstein. Sure. She didn't take it very seriously as a political issue. She does now. I think she realizes now, as she said to me, and I found this fascinating, that she thinks there's an overlapping group of voters, young, some of them black, Joe Rogan listeners, who are angry about two things, Epstein and Israel. And she thinks that's an important bloc of voters that they need to pay attention to. And Vance apparently is just obsessed with that. He's really into it and talks about this to some of the others in the West Wing.

[A]

So, you know, you are one of the few reporters that has gotten this level of access. Right. I mean, President Trump will take anyone's call and just say anything ridiculous that he would probably say on Truth Social anyway. But, you know, the level of access to see how this, like, administration is working through the Chief of staff. You're one of the few reporters that had this. Why do you think?

[B]

Yeah, I frankly, I mean, I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I don't think there's been any account like this from the inside of Trump 2.0. I think this is the thing that makes this unique is not just the access to Susie, which is pretty remarkable and still surprises me, frankly, but it's the fact that we have the first inside account of Trump 2.0, what was happening behind closed doors from the inside out. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's a great story, I think.

[A]

So. The thing that I find to be ironic is that I think the reason that other staffers don't talk to journalists is because they are afraid of Susie. And I think she broke the dam now. And I think there's going to be.

[B]

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. On the other hand, she's made it crystal clear that she wishes she hadn't done it and that, you know, and so if somebody else goes out and tries it, you know, that head might roll. But it's an interesting theory. I mean, we'll have to see.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I do also think the ecosystem has changed. Less factions. The Trump Hotel is gone, so you can't just hang out there and get officials on the record. But I do think it's much more.

[B]

It's much more disciplined. Yeah. And of course, Susie has a lot to do with that.

[A]

So, stepping back from all of this, what does this tell you about Trump 2.0 versus 1.0? Is it more unified? Is it less or more chaotic? And, and you know, why? Also, does he not fire anyone. That's, that's, that's my.

[B]

Yeah, I think the answer to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now listen, I think the answer to the latter part, I didn't specifically address this with Susie, but my sense of that is that the lesson of Trump 1.0, as far as Trump is concerned, is never to give an inch and don't give them any scalps. He's not going to do another Michael Flynn. He's not going to throw Hegseth over the side even when he's such a liability, because that just feeds the sharks. I think that's the mindset. I think that when people gang up on someone, whether it's Hagseth or maybe in this case, maybe they think I ganged up on Susie. I don't believe I did. But I think that when that happens, it stiffens his spine. I think it makes him much even more determined not to fire anybody because it's feeding the beast. We're the beast. He doesn't want to feed us.

[A]

Starving us. Right. All right. Well, I know you're running. Thank you so much for your time bopping around from, you know, interview to interview. But I really appreciate it and best of luck. And is a book coming out? Are we, are we going to read a full book on this? Are you holding on to more?

[B]

We'll see. We'll see about that. But congratulations to you on your piece. I'm looking forward to reading it.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's. It was interesting. Very Vanity Fair in the sense that an odd sort of world in Washington, building the young Christian community. I mean, even this past weekend, I read in the Washington Post that young people are becoming more and more Christian. So I think it makes sense. So thank you. Great again.

[B]

Okay, thanks, Tara.

[A]

That was another episode of the Tara Palmeri Show. Thanks so much for tuning in. It was a fun one. Like I said, I am still trying to understand all of this. If you like my reporting, please rate it, subscribe, follow the show, share it with all of your friends. Leave a comment. I want to hear from you. If you want to sign up for my newsletter, the Red Letter, you can go to tarapalmieri.com that's T A R A P A L M E R I dot com. It's how you can become a supporter of my independent journalism by becoming a paid subscriber. I don't have any corporate backers, no billionaires behind me, just me reporting the news straight to you without fe fear or favor. I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenate. I want to thank Abby Baker, who does social media and research for me. I want to thank Dan Rosen, my manager, and Adam Stewart on the graphics. See you again soon.