Trump & Epstein: The Swamp’s Darkest Secret

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tara Palmeri Show
Episode: Trump & Epstein: The Swamp’s Darkest Secret
Date: September 14, 2025
Host: Tara Palmeri
Key Topic: The ongoing battle over the Jeffrey Epstein files, the political and class dynamics at play, and the chilling reality of how power structures protect elites over victims.

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

Tara Palmeri joins as a guest to break down the complex battle over the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files, focusing on why the case still shakes the highest levels of American power—including the Trump administration, Congress, and intelligence agencies. The conversation explores the entrenchment of elite protection, the trauma and bravery of survivors, and what “draining the swamp” really means in practice. Palmeri draws on her deep reporting and time covering both Epstein and national politics to connect the dots between obstruction, political self-interest, class divides, and the search for justice.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. The DC Rally & Epstein Files Legislation ([01:46]-[06:27])

• Recent Event: Survivors and lawmakers rallied in DC to support Rep. Thomas Massie’s bill compelling the DOJ to release all Epstein files.
  • The bill is bipartisan (drafted with Democrat Ro Khanna) and only a handful of Republican votes short of forced consideration.
  • Trump’s legislative affairs team reportedly told Republicans that “voting for Massey’s bill is considered a hostile act against the administration.”
  • Quote: “What is in these files that is a hostile act against the administration?” – Tara Palmeri ([01:53])
• The push is significant: MAGA-aligned but fraught, since Trump is in the documents and exerts tight control over the issue.

Insight: Despite “drain the swamp” rhetoric, Trump and allies are actively working to suppress Epstein-related revelations, raising questions about elite impunity.

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2. Political Machinations: MAGA, Libertarians, and the Dwindling Push for Transparency ([06:27]-[08:26])

• MAGA figures previously championed releasing the files, aiming to target Democratic elites. Many stopped after clear signals from Trump to drop it.
  • “Libertarians that have joined the MAGA group ... still want it. But those that are truly like Trump evangelists... they are giving up on this.” – Tara Palmeri ([07:24])

Insight: The drive for transparency fractured along lines of personal loyalty to Trump versus authentic interest in accountability.

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3. Class, Power, and the Two-Tiered Justice System ([08:41]-[14:09])

• Palmeri reframes the Epstein story as fundamentally about class and elite protection.
  • “This is a story about the ruling class... against the children of the poor essentially. And... there is just a two tiered justice system.” – Palmeri ([08:41])
• Details the shocking sweetheart deals (e.g., 13-month “jail” sentence, ability to offend again), the personal toll on survivors, and the reason so few have spoken publicly (shame, suicide).

Memorable Moment: Palmeri’s emotional recounting of high school girls being trafficked and the pain suffered by those unable to come forward ([10:35-13:04]).

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4. Elite Reacceptance of Epstein Post-Jail ([13:04]-[15:24])

• After serving his limited sentence, Epstein returns to high society: “He was brought right back into the upper echelons of society, the 1%, as if he had done nothing at all.” – Palmeri ([13:05])
  • Raises the question: “If someone had just gone to prison for being a pedophile, I don’t think they’d be welcome on our block.” ([14:09])

Quote (Rep. Ro Khanna): “There is something rotten in Washington.” ([15:24])

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5. What’s in the Files? Obstruction and Redaction ([17:12]-[23:06])

• Released documents are almost wholly redacted.
  • “A lot of documents that are just black, black, black, like redacted. I mean, like kind of what you could see right now.” – Palmeri ([17:12])
• “Clients” and powerful men are named in survivor depositions, but those names are currently blacked out.
• Palmeri confirms existence of photographic evidence and surveillance in FBI possession ([21:44-23:06]).

Notable: Only “1 gigabyte” out of “300 gigabytes” of material has been seen, and that’s almost all redacted.

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6. Did Epstein Die by Suicide? Intelligence Agencies and Blackmail ([23:06]-[33:01])

• Palmeri believes Epstein was murdered, citing circumstantial evidence: “I just have this feeling, having followed the story.” ([23:10])
  • Notes Epstein’s extensive ties to intelligence (FBI, CIA, Mossad), his past as an informant in financial crimes, and their potential interest in continued protection.
  • “He used to brag that he was advising Vladimir Putin. How is that person not valuable to the CIA?” ([25:06])
• Discusses the possibility that a wealthy contact, not a government agency, orchestrated the killing via inside connections.
  • “There are a lot of people that wanted Jeffrey Epstein dead.” ([30:12])

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7. Ghislaine Maxwell: Surviving by Silence ([33:01]-[34:24])

• Ghislaine Maxwell is still alive, possibly because she is “keeping quiet.”
  • “Jeffrey is a talker. There was no way [he’d stay silent].” ([34:03])

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8. Pardons, Power, and Moral Obscurity ([34:28]-[35:30])

• Speculation that Trump might pardon Maxwell, Diddy, and George Santos “to blur the lines... it creates moral obscurity.”
  • “You lump it all together. Everyone. It’ll be a huge news cycle.” ([35:30])

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9. Systemic Injustice and The Power of Narrative ([38:39]-[41:50])

• Palmeri voices skepticism about the current system's ability to deliver justice for survivors:
  • “Is there really a road to true justice these days? ... I don’t see the road.” – Host ([38:39])
  • Palmeri: “I don’t either... It’s not a good case for [Democrats] either. But it’s the old guard.” ([39:22-40:26])

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10. Will This Hurt Trump? Faith and Cynicism ([40:39]-[41:50])

• Both agree Trump’s base seems largely unshakeable, but “more stuff is going to come out because of journalism.” ([41:50])

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11. Threats, Intimidation, and the Limits of Survivors’ Power ([44:12]-[45:22])

• Survivors fear retaliation—legal and physical—if they release client names themselves, due to intimidation by both the powerful men and the Trump orbit.
  • “[They] don’t want to have targets on their backs now ... The level of intensity... to try to keep it quiet. It’s not just Trump.” ([44:12])

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12. Broader Reckoning: Credibility, the Elite Bias, and Hard Lessons from the MeToo Era ([46:22]-[49:35])

• Palmeri reflects on societal biases: “We have a bias towards keeping people in power, in power, allowing them to continue to live entitled lives... This is a real reckoning moment.”
• On survivors and martyrdom: “There has to be a martyr sort of in every story... In this case, sadly, her version of going away was taking her own life.” ([49:35])

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13. Closing Reflections: Prediction and Hope ([53:40]-[54:55])

• Palmeri expresses hope that continued journalism will drive new revelations:
  • “I’m not religious really, but I do believe that all that is sort of hidden will be revealed... the more you say look away, look away, the more likely that the truth will be revealed.” – Tara Palmeri ([53:40])
  • Hints that Virginia Giuffre’s diary and memoir (coming October) will be big.

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NOTABLE QUOTES

• “What is in these files that is a hostile act against the administration?” – Tara Palmeri ([01:53])
• “He was brought right back into the upper echelons of society, the 1%, as if he had done nothing at all.” – Tara Palmeri ([13:05])
• “If you really want to drain the swamp, you release the files ... Trump is the swamp. It’s his swamp now.” – Tara Palmeri, followed by host remark ([15:27]-[15:32])
• “A lot of documents that are just black, black, black, like redacted.” – Tara Palmeri ([17:12])
• “He boasted about his connections. He even said to Brad Edwards ... ‘Trump’s my boy and Bill Barr is his. Nothing’s gonna happen to me.’” – Tara Palmeri ([24:03])
• “I believe it. I believe that there is a uni party of people. That is justice. I do. I hope so.” – Tara Palmeri ([46:26])

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IMPORTANT TIMESTAMPS

• 01:46 – Purpose of the Congressional event and Massie’s bill
• 05:19 – Marjorie Taylor Greene supporting the bill (unexpected alliances)
• 08:41 – Class divides, two-tiered justice
• 13:05 – Epstein returns to high society post-jail
• 17:12 – Redacted files; ongoing obstruction
• 23:10 – Palmeri’s view on Epstein’s death
• 25:06 – Epstein’s intelligence connections
• 34:03 – Maxwell’s silence
• 38:39 – Doubts about any route to justice
• 41:50 – Journalism as hope for new disclosures
• 44:12 – Survivors' fear of releasing names

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SUMMARY

This episode pulls back the curtain on how deep the rot surrounding the Epstein case really is—connecting from the halls of Congress to the intelligence community, the highest reaches of finance, and the media. Palmeri’s reporting highlights bipartisan dysfunction, the limits of public outrage, and the personal, often tragic cost borne by survivors. By the end, listeners see both the dark ingenuity of the “swamp” and the possibility that relentless journalism—plus the courage of survivors—can yet break the spell of impunity.

For anyone seeking justice, the question remains as urgent as ever: Who protects victims when the powerful protect each other?

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

All right, welcome back, everybody. Such a great pleasure of having this person before. And she's coming in again to talk about this important issue that's going on out there. And I. There's so many layers to this thing that it defies just simple explanations. And it's one of the reasons why I wanted her own. She's got her own show on YouTube, you guys. You've seen her reporting all over the place. And the red letter is a great substack out there. Read. Tara Palmeri, welcome back to Black on the Air. It's so great to see you again.

[C]

Thanks for having me, Larry. It's a pleasure. I'm so happy to be back.

[B]

Yeah. And it's so. It's so nice to have you here. You're one of the people. I feel you're really plugged into this whole Epstein issue and what's going on. I have so many questions. I'm so confused on a lot of it. And I was hoping I can have you on to just kind of help us kind of weed through some of this and figure out, like, what exactly are we watching? Like, what is going on here? And I know you have your perspective in this. I know it's very layered. You know, you have a. Both personally and professionally, I'm sure, you know. And first, I want to ask you, what was the purpose of the event with the survivors that happened in D.C. was it Friday or was it Thursday? When did that happen?

[C]

It was on, actually, I think Wednesday.

[B]

Oh, it was on Wednesday.

[C]

Yeah, I know. I know. These days, these weeks, they.

[B]

I can't keep track of time.

[C]

I know, right? Time is. It's elusive now. So it was on Wednesday, and the purpose of it was to rally behind this bill that Thomas Massie has put forward. And it would basically be forcing Republicans to vote to release all of the Epstein files from the DOJ to compel the DOJ to release the files. And, you know, this is a. It's a. It's a big vote because President Trump has simultaneously had his legislative affairs team himself calling around a member saying, if you Vote for Massey's bill. It is considered a hostile act against the administration. Hostile act. That is. That is something, Right? So what is in these files that is a hostile act against the administration? Shouldn't. Excuse me, Harry. All of a sudden I got the hiccups.

[B]

It's all good.

[C]

It's okay. Let me. Give me one second. But yeah, so it's like. It is, you know, and all they need to. To. To get a discharge petition. Right. To file a discharge petition. I know. I. Congress is ridiculous with all.

[B]

It is so many procedural things and procedural tricks and getting under this. Yes, exactly.

[C]

So basically, Thomas Massie drafted this bill alongside Ro Khanna, who is a Democrat from Silicon Valley. He represents that region. Google are some of the richest people in the world, and he's very ambitious. Roe certainly wants to run for president. I can almost feel when I'm around.

[B]

I've had. I've had him on my podcast. We actually went out to lunch and I was. Yeah. Before the last election, when I was complaining about what was going on.

[C]

Yeah. He's a really smart guy, right?

[B]

He is. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Good guy.

[C]

Yeah. So he's really gotten behind the Epstein issue with Thomas Massie, who, by the way, has been on the wrong side of Trump before voting against Build Back Better Bill, saying it's going to be a huge deficit balloon. Massie is from Kentucky, and he is not afraid to brush up against Trump. He allies with Elon Musk in that fight. But, you know, because of that, Massie is also feeling facing, you know, a ton of Republican fire, like, in the sense of the Trump's super pac. They are. They're supporting ads, and major donors are supporting ads that are trying to take out Massie in his district to get a primary challenger who can beat him. The funny thing about. About Thomas Massie is he's, like, so far to the right, he's as MAGA as it comes.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

You know, it's pretty maggot to not want to vote for a massive bill that may implode the deficit. You know what I mean? So.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But regardless, this war has been waging for a while, and this is obviously a serious attack against Trump because he has made it clear he wants the Epstein story to go away. So he only needs five more Republicans to force this bill out of the House Oversight Committee and onto the floor. Right, onto the House floor. So that these Republicans will have to be on the record voting against releasing the Epstein files. And he only needs two more Republicans. He has. Hold your breath, Marjorie Taylor Greene I.

[B]

Know, I saw that.

[C]

And Lauren Boebert, I mean, a little bit of wackadoodles. The definite wackadoodle. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene is calling out Jewish space lasers, yet she was completely lucid on the Capitol lawn saying, this is not a partisan issue. This is a story about crime victims.

[B]

And she was right. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And I was like, whoa, Marjorie, you're making sense for once.

[B]

I'm, I'm looking back into those space lasers now. I want to see if.

[C]

But, yeah, she, she certainly was really compelling and it was an incredible day to see that. I felt like we were at a breaking point in this story. But at the same time, you see some of the documents that have been sent from the DOJ over to the House Oversight Committee as part of this so called Epstein probe. And it's just black lines. All black lines, all redacted. Nothing there. There's nothing there. And it's really upsetting to these victims. And not even just victims. I think the American public, they're just like, why is. What, what are you trying to hide?

[B]

Mm. So one of the things I'm trying to unravel, because there's different factions seeming to want the same things, but for different reasons maybe, you know, so let's talk about MAGA first. So you talked about Massey, how far to the right he is, and he definitely represents a segment of MAGA that was on this train for a few years now. Like, wasn't Cash Patel and some of.

[C]

These people or Bongino, the deputy FBI.

[B]

Yeah. They were like, promising the release of these. Yeah. What? Yeah. So what were they looking for? What were they hoping to achieve before Trump got into office with their push for the release of these from, from what you can tell, a cabal of.

[C]

Democratic elites that are in the. Or that are in the documents. I think they forgot that Trump used to be a Democrat.

[B]

And, and was close to Epstein.

[C]

Was very close. Exactly when he was best friends with Epstein. You know, Trump was never, as. He was never really the one saying, like, yeah, he did say, we'll release some of the Epstein files. But he was never over. Over, you know, over promising the way these others did. But it's been very quiet. You didn't see another, a single MAGA influencer at that rally, at that press conference. They sort of stopped when Trump said, enough's enough. Libertarians that have joined the MAGA group, that would have probably been more like Bernie Bros, sort of the politically homeless, they still want it. But those that are truly like Trump evangelists and Just believe everything he said. He says they, they, they are giving up on this. And that's, that's sort of an interesting facet in all of this is that it does seem like some of it has sort of, some of the pressure has, has sort of lifted for him.

[B]

So, so who are these Republicans now representing? You know, your Marjorie Taylor Green Germans. Like who are they representing? Like, what do you think is motivating them to do this? Could it be actual justice?

[C]

One would hope. I think they believe that there is a uni party actually out there. I do, I believe this is a class story. Honestly, Larry always felt this way. This is a story about the ruling class, the elites, the heads of institutions, banks, politicians, foreign dignitaries, princes, kings, presidents, and against the children of the poor essentially. And I really have always seen this story that way and why there is just a two tiered justice system. And I know, I'm sure a lot of your listeners can relate to this, this feeling that there's justice for some, but not for all. Right. And I think the scope of the victims, a thousand victims, according to the FBI, a sweetheart deal that meant that he only spent 13 months in a state prison for procuring a 14 year old for prostitution, suggesting that a 14 year old could even be a prostitute. You know, the fact that he was able to commit a crime against one of these girls while wearing an ankle bracelet under 13, under this 13 month stay in a county jail with work release. The fact that nobody understands why this case went all the way up to the Attorney General of the United States for review. A sex trafficking case in which A prosecutor in U.S. attorney Alex Acosta's office who worked on the case diligently for years, was recommended 65 charges of federal sex trafficking and went down to zero. There's just so many questions about how this injustice could have happened. And so many girls went to the FBI, went to parents, you know, going to the Palm beach police saying their daughters were lured into this man's house, this 50 year old man's house and they were 12, 13, 14 years old. And a lot of people say, oh, the girls that were on the steps of the Capitol or they seemed older, you know, they must have been in their 18, 20, 21, 22. And what I say to those people, there were a few girls who were teenagers that were there, like Courtney Wilde who showed up at Epstein's Health Braces. I mean he created, he created Ponzi, not a Ponzi scheme, excuse me, created a pyramid scheme in a high school to get all These girls to come and bring their friends. And I say to them, the girls that were molested when they were kids, it has been so difficult for them to come out. So many of them have chosen to remain in the shadows. There have been so many suicides. I mean, we know Virginia because she's one of the most prominent survivors. But it is too difficult for them to speak about it. The shame that they feel. They were so young. It affects your frontal lobe. It affects your development in life to be sexually abused so young.

[B]

And.

[C]

And they don't have that same sort of strength that the older women, the older girls, as you might call them there, you know, they were later teens or in their early 20s do, and they speak for them. But the truth is, this was a high school that was raided. This is a serious story, and it's not a hoax. It's like, it's a. If you wanted to, like, sob for five or six days, just read through these files. Parents, you know, coming forward. Some of the girls were going there because they thought they were making more money than their fathers.

[B]

Going, right. Absolutely. You know, ultimate just exploitation of people with nothing and giving them. I mean, from his standpoint, so little. Not even. Not even a dent on anything, just these little crumbs. And, you know, being able to. To control these young people is just crazy.

[C]

The thing that really disturbs me, too, Larry, I've got to say this, is that when Epstein got out of prison. Not prison, excuse me, jail. Because jail and prison are two very different.

[B]

During. During that first. Did he go to jail? It was a 2008.

[C]

Is that he went to county jail.

[B]

Okay. Wow.

[C]

No. He should have been locked up for the rest of his life.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[C]

Yeah. When he returned from county jail, he went back to his $20 million townhouse.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Went back to hang out with Bill Gates and various other prominent luminaries. He held. He continued to hold dinners, to convene luminaries from all over the world, to give money to mit, to Harvard, to continue to live the life of luxury that he had always lived, flying around on private planes and continuing to live this life. And so many people like the Prince, Prince Andrew and others, even prominent people in media, spent time with him. Women that were prominent, prominent women, spent time with him. And he was brought right back into the upper echelons of society, the 1%, as if he had done nothing at all. And that. That's the heartbreaking part, too, to me, that I don't think anyone really quite understands, is that he was not seen as A pariah. And I think, like, where you and I come from, if someone had just gone to prison for being a pedophile, I don't think they'd be welcome on our block.

[B]

No, no, not at all. They wouldn't be welcome in prison.

[C]

They wouldn't. They die. They usually get killed in prison.

[B]

Those people get shiv, like, right away.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And. But yet he could easily mingle in some of the highest, you know, highest levels of power is what still continues to confound me to this day. And it's just a rot in our system. I mean, Rona kind of said it perfectly on the steps of the Capitol. There is something rotten in Washington. And I know he was referencing Shakespeare, but sure, he and Tommy Thomas Massey said, like, this story is because the reason that these. That the men on the list, the men that are on the victims lists, the reason that their names aren't being called out right now and the reason that the people inside the House Representatives, inside the Senate aren't doing anything about this is because it's their wealthy donors that are on the line. It's because it's the power structures that are on the line. It's because it's the machine that feeds the swamp that is on the line right now. And if you really want to drain the swamp, you release the files and it goes back to Trump. Drain the swamp? You want to drain the swamp, release the files.

[B]

Well, Trump is the swamp. That's the thing.

[C]

It's his swamp now. It's just his alligators. Right?

[B]

Absolutely. When did you know this infamous trip to Africa that supposedly Bono's on and President Clinton. I don't know if Bono was on that, but President Clinton was on. I think one of the ladies that they were on that trip. Did that happen after 2008 or before?

[C]

I thought that was 2004, but I might be wrong. I don't know.

[B]

I want to know, like, what events happen after 2008.

[C]

So many. That's the other crazy thing. Let me just actually look that up before we. We stay that Africa. What year was that? 2002. 2003.

[B]

Okay, so that was early in. Right, Right, right.

[C]

But again, a lot of the way that Epstein was able to break into these. These upper echelons of society to spend time with Bono presidents was because he was willing to give money to various foundations. He gave money to the foundation, he would give money to prominent institutions. He laundered his name through these institutions. So, I mean, what is the value of money?

[B]

Right, Exactly. That's the lesson in all this, too, my goodness. I mean, it's a really. That golden handshake, really.

[C]

It's like it's dirty money. It's a dirty.

[B]

It really is. So what has already been released? Let's go to the Pam Bondi thing. So she promised to release, quote, unquote, everything, whatever that means that did. What did she actually release, if anything?

[C]

A lot of documents that are just black, black, black, like redacted. I mean, like kind of what you could see right now. I mean, you can go to the FBI's website right now into their vaults where they hold a lot of the documents around cases, and go to the Epstein files and. And you can look at them. You just can't. It's just hard to read. It's just all.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Blacked out white boxes. There's nothing.

[B]

What do you think, what do you think happened with that? Do you think she genuinely was going to do something and was stopped, or do you think, you know, she never really had any intention?

[C]

I think she does whatever Trump tells her to do.

[B]

Okay, so you think there was. She probably was going full steam ahead, like, oh, yeah, this is what everybody.

[C]

Wants until she told Trump. You're in the files. Remember that happened? Yeah.

[B]

So. So you think Trump told her stop.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so if Trump is. So we already know Trump was friends with Epstein, so it makes sense that.

[C]

It was already out there, that he was in the black book, he had traveled.

[B]

Exactly. Okay, so by in the files. So what does in the files mean? That it's different than that stuff that.

[C]

We haven't seen before.

[B]

And that would mean.

[C]

There. I don't know. That's the golden question. Right.

[B]

But do we think that, like. I'm not sure about this, honestly, I don't even want to insinuate. I have no idea. You know, like, Trump is an odd character anyway. You know, I mean, we know he has, you know, tris with hookers and that type of thing and, you know, know, cheated on his wife. You know, the, you know, so him with prostitutes isn't a stretch. You know, we know that's already happened, you know, or him in those situations where he's paying for sex or whatever. We know that that's the case. The.

[C]

This is a pedophile, though.

[B]

Yes, exactly. That's the different issue. So, yeah, you know, no one.

[C]

I mean, there was one girl that accused him of this Jane Doe called Katie Johnson, but she dropped the case before the election.

[B]

Accused Trump.

[C]

Yeah. At Epstein's townhome, but she dropped the case. Before the election, citing intimidation. I actually interviewed Michael Cohen about this, Trump's fixer at the time, and he sent out a private investigator to find this Jane Doe. You can see it on my show. It's the Tara Palmeri show, and you could see it on YouTube or on my podcast. But yeah, I definitely. Or on my substack, the Red Letter. But I grilled Michael Cohen about that and what happened with that case, because it was right before the election. She claimed, as a 13 year old, she was raped by him in Epine's townhouse. You know, Trump denied it. Michael Cohen said that Trump Hilton was bullshit and he sent out a PI to try to find her. I said to him, why, you know, you're sending out a PI to try to find a Jane Doe? The point of being a Jane Doe is to be anonymous. Right. You do that to protect your. Your identity and not to have an investigator identify it, because that's what. That's very commonly used in these cases to intimidate and to, you know, private investigators. They are used in these cases to try to dig up any dirt on these women that would make their character question their character and who they are. So. Or just to identify them and harass them. Like, I remember one of the victims, Courtney Wild, she said that there was some. At one point, there was a PI that was trying to run her off the road. It was, like, terrible. And she was up against Epstein. Yeah.

[B]

So if the. So with the doj, with the files that they have, would clients be listed in these files, or would it just be like the operation itself and. And what Epstein did and all these things? But what do you think there'd be an actual list of names in there? Because to me, there may not be.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, there would be. Because I. Sorry, excuse me. The list. I've been trying to explain this, people. There's no client list that.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Held on to.

[B]

Right.

[C]

They're all in the files. At the very least, the girls. I call them girls, but they're my age. Now, women in their. In their court documents, set their depositions that are in these files, they name the names of men that they were trafficked to.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And that would be in there right now? They're redacted, but they would be unredacted. For example, like, Virginia Giuffre's court documents are entirely redacted, and there are a lot of names of men that she's been trafficked to in them, and she's been redacted. There are. There's Might be. I was told that there's surveillance videos and that there's. That there are even pictures of, like, bodies with girl men over bodies that they have. This is from one Virginia, who said that she went to the FBI with her lawyer at the time, Stan Pottinger, to. To see if she could identify herself in those pictures. But she. She said none of the girls were her and when she was looking. So we have to assume that they have a lot of. They have. They have document, like photographic evidence and also just testimony from survivors about it. But, you know, are we ever going to see that? I don't know. And, you know, in the case of Virginia, yeah, she didn't see her own body, but I've got to assume that they have a lot. And not just assume, but based on my conversations with senior law enforcement, that. That there is a lot of information that they're holding on to 300 gigabytes, and we've seen 1 gigabyte, and it's all redacted, so.

[B]

Right. Do you think. Do you think Epstein was murdered?

[C]

Yes, I do, actually. I always have. I know that's weird.

[B]

No, that's okay. Who. Like, I'm the last to get on.

[C]

I'm not trying to sound like Q.

[B]

I know, I know. Well, I'm the last to get on conspiracies trains, but I always say.

[C]

Well, I like to live in the world of facts as a journalist, I just have this feeling, having followed the story. So. And it is a feeling, but. And there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that you just can't explain. Guards asleep, missing minute. The fact that his. His neck was broken in three places, the fact that he wasn't the type of person to kill himself. He always believed he could get out of jail. He boasted about his connections. He even said to Brad Edwards, one of the attorneys that I interviewed, he said, trump's my boy and Bill Barr is his. Nothing's gonna happen to me. Like, he really believed he was untouchable. I also believe he had been an informant to the. To. To intelligence services for a while. So I think that he had felt that he had. That he had sort of. He had value and that he had some that would be used in some way, because, you know, all the way back, I think, in 1996, the financial towers case, where it was the largest Ponzi scheme in the country at that point, it was a $400 million Ponzi scheme with Stephen Hoffenberg. His partner was Jeffrey Epstein. Stephen Hoffenberg spent The rest of his life in prison for that. When he was, during this case. And Jeffrey instead was an informant.

[B]

He was a snitch.

[C]

Yeah, he was a snitch and he never went to prison. And so I think his relationship with the intelligence community started then.

[B]

Okay, so you say, yes, he had a relationship with the intelligence community. So like does that, when we say the intelligence community, FBI, CIA.

[C]

Yeah, I do think that, Yeah, I think he was, I think he spent a lot of time, we know in that case he helped prosecutors, but I think that he spent so much time with high net worth people, with foreign dignitaries. I mean, he literally, he used to brag that he was advising Vladimir Putin. How is that person not valuable to the CIA? He used to talk to African dictators. He was friends with mbs. He was, you know, even just look at the pictures of him with all of these people. Do you think, Andrew, he, how would he not be valuable? I mean, the CIA, for example, would never compel an American to give them information. But if that American wanted to volunteer that information, certainly it's going to put them on the good side of the law. It's very similar to like the Whitey Bulger case where he was helping the FBI while killing people and.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It's not always.

[B]

Right, Right, Yeah.

[C]

It's not always a gun to your, it's not always a gun to your head type of relationship. Right. It's with the law enforcement. Often at the end of the mob movie, it's the don that was the informant all along.

[B]

So you're saying, I just want to be clear about this. That. Or maybe you're not saying this, but the CIA was well aware of his trafficking with young girls, underage girls, but turn their heads because he was a valuable asset to them for other reasons.

[C]

I can't say that for certainty, but I can say that like I know that he had. I know. Okay. So during my reporting for a podcast that I did on Jeffrey Epstein called Broken Jeffrey Epstein, I interviewed a lawyer for one of the victims. His name is Brad Edwards. You saw him on the steps of Capitol Hill. He's been a lawyer for a lot of long time. Yes, exactly. And Brad, as part of his work trying to argue that the non prosecution agreement, that sweetheart deal was invalid and he interviewed a lot of people and one of them was Jeffrey Epstein's bodyguard of five years, Igor Zinoviev. And while Jeffrey was in, while he was in that state jail, Igor went to Langley, which is the CIA headquarters, to pick up a book for Jeffrey in a Note that was brought back and Igor came back and told, and Igor recalled this to, to Brad and said he's a very important person there. And we know even from his diaries that were foia, there was a Freedom of Information request for Jeffrey Epstein's diaries. And in there he had meetings with the CIA. We also know that he met with Bill Burns when he was the Deputy secretary of the State Department. And State Department and CIA work very closely together. In fact, a lot of diplomats are actually covert CIA abroad. So I also think again, he would be very valuable to them as a hyper fixer type. Like he could provide information, he could help connect various agents abroad. I don't think he's always in like a CIA agent. They couldn't run him. He was an American citizen, you can't do that. I also think he probably gave tips to a lot of other agencies as well, like Mossad, MI6, like I think he was kind of guy who was wheeling and dealing in information. And first of all that could be used as blackmail. Helped him with his financial business to get people to invest in him because let's be serious, he wasn't some like financial savant. I think it allowed him to play both sides of the law for a long time. And yeah, I think it helped him with his deal. I do. I think that having that relationship, even if it, even if it wasn't a direct CIA intelligence relationship, even if it just goes back to the financial towers and the fact that he helped the FBI with that, I'm sure he continued to give them information. There's one document in the, in the files in the vault that shows that he gave the FBI and some sort of information in exchange to get his assets returned to him. What information? We don't know.

[B]

So would any of that information be in these Epstein Epson files?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, I think that's the, it's all blacked out that, that whole document. But all we know is that he gave information to get his assets returned that were seized. But we don't know, you know, exactly what that information could have been.

[B]

So do you think then if you say you feel he was murdered, then the, you know, to me it's, it's got to be CIA or some organization that murdered him. It can't just be, you know, I mean, somebody had to have a really good reason to do that, right? Like who had that?

[C]

I don't necessarily, I actually also don't necessarily think it was CIA, FBI that murdered Him.

[B]

Well, who would have. Who would have had the motivation to do it?

[C]

I think one of the wealthy individuals that he was friends with that know that he may have had, like, maybe would have tried to again get. Let loosen his. Like, lighten his time by selling out one of these. These men. Maybe, perhaps selling.

[A]

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[C]

FBI or CIA giving them information on various cases they're working on. Like giving them in exchange to lay in his. His sentence. I think he knew a lot of information. I think there are a lot of people that wanted Jeffrey Epstein dead, not just the intelligence services. And they could have paid someone in that jail to kill him.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Like, I do think that there's a. There's the 60 Minutes did a piece on this, like, about five years ago, 2019 or 2020, they did a really great piece on this about a cop from Nassau county who's also in the prison and how they think he may have been paid to kill Epstein. I know it's. It's. But that's sometimes how it's done. It's an inside job. And then suddenly that cop gets. Has like a. His. The family of that police officer lives in some mansion later on or gets a boat. You know, it's kind of that sort of thing. But yeah, it's crazy, right? I mean, we live.

[B]

It is interesting. Like I said, I'm not. I don't jump in that conspiracy train right away, but this one, I have to leave the door open because I've heard too many things that sound like maybe. But I always say the execution of it isn't always as easy as people think that it should be, you know?

[C]

No, no, no. And you also have to do it. Like, that's why I think it was an inside job. Like, I don't think there was like, some sort of. And people get killed in prison. Like we were saying, like, pedophiles get killed in prison all the time.

[B]

Yeah, they do.

[C]

And this was staged. If it was. If he was killed, it was staged to look like a.

[B]

But he was isolated, right?

[C]

Yeah. His business partner, Jean Luc Bernal. Also mysteriously, this is the guy who was his business partner in this MC2 modeling agency that they had together. He also mysteriously died in a French prison by hanging.

[B]

So I don't want to sound macabre.

[C]

And also, Glenn Maxwell's father mysteriously died falling off the side of his yacht, named the Lady Glenn. And, and Glenn, even in those tapes with Todd Blanch, says she thinks her father was a telligent intelligence asset. He knew Jeffrey Epstein and she believed that he was killed and then he. Masada asset.

[B]

So, okay, so here's my macabre follow up. Okay, so why, why aren't they asking.

[C]

Us to do this, Larry? Probably.

[B]

Exactly. But why is Elaine Maxwell still alive then? Because she was the closest person to Jeffrey Epstein. If anybody shares the secrets, it's her. As you said, as you just stated, if her father was some kind of asset, you know, she's. That's a lot of things tying her to sensitive information that could worry people out there. How is she not only still alive, how is she in a, in a nicer prison environment than she was on her way out?

[C]

Isn't it? Doesn't it seem clear that she's on her way in?

[B]

It seems like it, yeah.

[C]

She's figured her, her pathway is just to keep quiet. I mean, Jeffrey is a talker. There was no way.

[B]

So you thought there's a threat that Jeffrey was going to talk, which made people want to kill him. But with Elaine, she's not going to talk so she can live.

[C]

Yeah. And when she does talk, she's going to say the right things, Right?

[B]

Right. Well, so far, yeah. Do you think Trump's gonna pardon her like on his way out, like his last act, he'll part man.

[C]

I think he'll pardon Diddy too. And George Santos.

[B]

Really? Why? Why did he.

[C]

Because, like he likes Diddy. They were friends. And he'll also the. Not just that. And George Santos, because it's not just like about whether he likes Diddy or Glenn or. He did actually. He was friends with Glenn. They've been friends for a very long time, like since she was very young. But it kind of, it kind of blurs the lines, right? Like it creates moral like obscurity and you know, oh, well, if he pardons George Santos, who was just using his campaign finance funds to buy Sephora makeup, but then, you know, you also have like Diddy and then those. That's a different story than the Galette, you know, than Glenn. It just, it's all like the moral lines are so blurred and it's such a. It would create such a three pronged news cycle. Right. Like, I think.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Lump it all together, clump it all together, everyone. It'll be a huge news cycle. Which one do you lead with that night? The pardoning of the land? I mean, if you're a news guy, like, which one do you lead with? Probably.

[B]

Let me. Well, let me ask you this. I'm just going to do a site tour on the Diddy thing just for a second, get your perspective on this. I don't believe what happened is correct. Justice, let's say it seems weird to me, you know, like, the thing that I think he should have been prosecuted for, and I'm sure there are reasons for, was obviously that videotape that we saw, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, beating up, you know, just that that act itself to me is worthy of going to prison. But the, the act of paying someone to go to a different state, an adult, consenting adult, this man act, which is so out of date to me, and just to have prison time for that, where there's no, like, coercion in this, or it's not like trafficking or that type of thing, where we would understand that. You know, I don't understand this. I don't understand what that.

[C]

I'm like, I get that too. But I think when prosecutors put a case together, what they do is they try to win. Right. Like, that's the whole point. They waste all this time. Not waste. Don't get me. You know, in their minds, it's like they know that they have a, like, fiduciary duty to prosecute a case and win. So they're going to choose the easiest charges to prove. And so that one they probably thought was the easiest charge to prove. And like, I don't, you know, there's. And I think with what we saw in that tape, which was horrific. Juries are weird. Do you know what I mean? But you can't, you can't take away from the fact that like. But that helps the case. Right. It helps to create a narrative, which is what you also need on top of all of it. But when it, when it comes down to, like, when they're talking to the jury and they're like, all we needed to say was they brought this person to that place or this per. You know what I'm saying? And it's so easy, factual, then that's how you kind of convince juries to vote one way or another on your charges.

[B]

Yeah. And what it says about the justice system is like, we just feel this person needs to go to prison and we don't care what the charges are, ultimately.

[C]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. But we want you to feel a certain way about him, regardless. Yeah, no, it is. I mean, it's, it's very archaic, but, like, that is. That's sort of how it works. Right. It's always interesting to see what people actually end up going to prison for and what they actually do. Right. But that was a real. The crime was heinous crimes and.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Poor Cassidy and what she had to go through.

[B]

Absolutely. Like I said, he should have gone to prison for that videotape alone, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you concerned at all, like, when you, you know, this whole threat that they made about, you know, you know, the, the Trump people. Threat about his people. But just the way that the system is set up now with Trump's DOJ in place, like, doing things for him, specifically the way the Supreme Court is stacked, I mean, it seems like if something really happened to you, Tara, is there really a road to true justice these days? I mean, I don't know if there is. I mean, like, when I look at the women standing there, I'm like, where are they going to get justice from? Truly, in this particular time, right now, in 2025, I don't see the road.

[C]

I don't either. Although I will say it hasn't. For the past few decades, there hasn't been justice for them either. And that's been over numerous.

[B]

That's true.

[C]

Administrations. This started long ago. So I do think when the, if the Congress changes hands, I think that that would at least offer some balance, because right now you have every single. You've got, you know, the House. I'm sorry, you've got Congress, you've got the presidency, the Supreme Court all stacked in a conservative favor. So there's really no balance. But if the Congress changes hands, we know the Senate probably won't. But if the Congress, if there's even just like, you know, a fourth of power is, is.

[B]

It will.

[C]

It'll still be heavily weighted towards conservatives, but there'll be at least a little bit of power on the other side, and they'll have subpoena power, the Democrats, if they choose to use it. I mean, I keep saying this, Larry, to a lot of people having known this case and worked on it for a long time, like, it doesn't make Democrats look good either.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It's not a good case for them either. But it's the old guard. And, you know, they are at 27 approval rating it's not the worst thing, I guess, to clean out, but. Yeah, it's not a great. Yeah, it's not great for them either.

[B]

Do you think this could potentially hurt Trump? Like the one thing. Because he's kind of been impervious to, you know, I mean, he's the one that said he could shoot somebody in Fifth Avenue, and he hasn't been wrong about that in terms of.

[C]

No, it's actually true. I know. I don't know because, like, I don't know if his Democratic. I mean, I don't know if his base cares anymore.

[B]

Right.

[C]

What do you. What's your sense?

[B]

It's, it's tough to. It's, you know, it's such a good question because there was a crack there where it seemed like it could make a difference, you know, where it seemed like for a second there, Maga was feeling a little betrayed, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know. Yeah, there. Is there a lemon law here? We can, we can talk about, you know, what's going on. We were deceived. It seemed like that was in the air, and it seemed like Trump himself shut that down and everybody fell in line, you know, and as you say, it kind of just went away with all these other things.

[C]

Yeah, it does feel like, I don't know. I think as long as it's in the press, I do know that more stuff is going to come out because of journalism.

[B]

Yeah. Well, Trump calling it a hoax. Okay, so that sounds like. Yeah, no terror. Because they always do this thing. Here's what Trump does. He says something that sounds like one thing, but then you need all the Rosetta Stone interpreters to tell you what Trump really meant by it. Right. So, because. And that's how Trump gets away with. With really meaning two things where he. What he really wants to convey to his people is that the actual thing is a hoax, you know, but what we're supposed to believe is that he's saying the Democratic attack on it is a hoax, you know, or something like that. So what is your take from that statement? What is. What fires are being put out by that?

[C]

I mean, it sounds, it sounds like what he says when he's always under attacks. It's a hoax. They're fake, they're this, they're that. And I thought there, there's nothing there there. Like, I have heard that a lot from people, even Democrats, saying to me, like, is there anything there there? Because they know. They know I know a lot about this story. And I was like, well, what's there There to you, do you know what I mean? Like, is pedophilia there there? Because, like, that's there to. That seems like there's something there. To me, when he says Democratic hoax, it sounds like he's trying to say that this is just a. A political game, which it has become, frankly. And I was really happy that the survivors showed up on the steps of the Capitol to say, like, no, we are not a hoax. We are people. We are here. And that, to me, was really powerful. And it was a reminder that it's not a hoax, that they're real people. And so that's important. Um, but, yeah, I mean, he's just fighting for his life. And, yeah, this is the one story that won't go away.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

Because it does involve real humans. It's a crime scene. It's a crime. Like, that's the thing. It's a crime against people and real people, not a hoax.

[B]

Right. And it seemed like this. The survivors that were speaking, it seemed like they alluded to the fact that they may gather together the list of clients themselves and release that. Is there. Is that possible? Do you think that's going to happen? Are these seriously?

[C]

Yeah, I do. Although I. Later on that night, though, Larry, I was with a lot of the survivors, and they're terrified with. About that idea. They. They've been through intimidation. They don't want to have this. They don't want to have targets on their backs now. And it's not just from the Trump administration. It's from the men, too there. I don't think people quite understand the level of intensity behind the forces behind the story to try to keep it. To keep it quiet. It's not just Trump. There are a lot of people that want the story.

[B]

Are they afraid, like, if they release names, they'll get sued immediately?

[C]

Yes, definitely. Defamations.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And we live in this crazy time. I mean, Trump just sued the Wall street journal for $10 billion for reporting on the birthday card. You know, that is most likely in the discovery of the Epstein case. And so, yeah, no, this is. He denies it, but again, it's the Wall Street Journal. They know. They know they have got really high standards, and they were also able to, like, the birthday book is. Is definitely in. It would definitely be in the files for sure.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But this is, you know, like, it's terrifying the times we live in right now. And. And Virginia lived it out herself. I mean, she was in a brutal, brutal lawsuits with various men trying to shut her up, and she. She killed herself. Ultimately, she was a really hard life. I mean, it was really sad.

[B]

And didn't she actually win the thing against Prince Andrew?

[C]

Yeah. The only civil settlement.

[B]

Right.

[C]

The crown is ever paid. Isn't that incredible?

[B]

And. And she's. But this is how. This is what people should know. The irony of that. And took her life after. Even after that, you know, when it's a painful process. I know.

[C]

And she was dragged through the mud.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, dragged through the mud. Do you remember that interview, though, that he did with the British News Channel?

[B]

Oh, it was ridiculous. No, it's terrible.

[C]

It was disgusting, right?

[B]

It really was.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think this could be the one issue that could actually bring people together?

[C]

I believe it. I believe. I believe that there is a uni party of people. That is justice. I do. I hope so.

[B]

I think if there is.

[C]

If they're like. I know populism is often used in a negative term, but it's like, I do think there's a undercurrent of feeling that in this case, the elites are certainly trying to quash a story that the people want to know about. And I sense that. And, you know, if Trump was really the one who was supposed to be the slayer of the elites of the establishment, like, this is certainly a story that just is all about the elites, all about the establishment and keeping the status quo happy. There's a book, actually, I don't have it with me right now, but it's in another room. It's called Credible. And it's about why we, in society, we put the credibility bias against the accusers and towards the powerful. And it's, in a way, it's up to the accuser to be credible. Right. Not the people who are being accused. And it's like how in society, we. We want to keep. We have a bias towards keeping people in power, in power, allowing them to continue to live entitled lives. And this is a real reckoning moment, I think, in terms of that. I mean, we just went through the MeToo movement. I think a lot of people wondered was that good for women, or did that set us back ultimately, you know, and I think this is. This moment is a reckoning. And, you know, do we always side with power? Is that always who we? Is that just our bias as human beings? And then you add in this other layer, Larry, which I've thought about a lot, because I've heard this directly from survivors, but there is a certain sort of pain in knowing that the person who abused you is celebrated, continues to be celebrated. And, I mean, you Saw that with the Bill Cosby case. Right. Harvey Weinstein, Prince Andrew. Yeah. Like, when the person who abused you is celebrate it, it makes it even more difficult and you are disregarded. And, you know, there have been so many brave people who've come out like Anita Hill and Christine Blasey Ford and so many others and. But they go away, you know, after they're done. They, they, they. They tell their truth, the world rejects them, they choose the, the power structures as they are, and they go away. And I think what was really special about Virginia but ultimately took a toll on her was that she didn't go away for so long. So many of those survivors of Epstein would not be there without her. Yeah, she was one of the first ones to come out and tell the story of her abuse. Without her like this, I don't know that any of those women would be out there. And it's sad that there has to be a martyr sort of in every story that goes away. Sadly, her version of going away was taking her own life. But, you know, this is, this isn't. This is an endemic problem and we have to like, have a reckoning in our society over why we always side with the accused.

[B]

Yeah, there's a. I agree with you. It's so eloquent what you're saying. You know, I think so many people, we live in a meme society and a slogan society sometimes, and people attack a slogan and sometimes they destroy an actual important movement. You know. So like, right. When people said believe women, you know, that's all. That's all it said. You know, people change that to believe all women and then attacked the change that it never was. It was like the same thing with Black Lives Matter. People changed that to only Black Lives Matter and then attacked the change that they made. That's calling it irrelevant, you know.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And it's like, I hate when that it happens all the time. And so then it create. It creates a wedge in these issues where believe women to me came around because that was not happening. Where powerful men were believed all the time, you know. And finally, you know, people, go figure, believed women for once, you know, in that situation who, as you say, it's a class issue too. It's power versus non power is what those situations really are, you know, especially when you reverse, you know, when you have someone like Elaine Maxwell who's a woman, you know, it's still. Now it's still a power thing, you know, of controlling younger women and that sort of thing. So to me, that type of sloganeering I hate when it undermines the actual issues, you know, and people. Yeah.

[C]

And there's always the drama, drama traumas around it.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, okay, throw the slogan out. Stop saying it. Then how about we just believe this case? Let's talk about this case. How about these particular people? You know, what's wrong with, with believing what they're saying? There's so many of them. It just really frustrates me, you know, so one thing I always try to do is give a platform for this. So I really appreciate you being on and talking about it.

[C]

No, I, I appreciate you being so thoughtful and wanting to talk about it because I know, like, you care about the, you care so much about so many different things and you platform so many important issues. So, like, I really appreciate your work.

[B]

No, it's my pleasure. I saw my old pal Gretchen Carlson on TV this morning talking about it. And she was on my show on the Nightly Show. I've had her in the podcast and I really admired her because, you know, she was going against Fox News at that time and that headwind is not easy to go against and the powerful people there. And she's been a strong advocate, you know, of all these things. And, you know.

[C]

Yeah, she has been. That's. It's hard and I think there's.

[B]

It's not easy.

[C]

Yeah, the, the power structures as they are, they just don't, you know, they. You need to have a person who's going to come out where, you know, are. I think for a lot of these women, their livelihoods are on the line, their safety, their family, their security. And it's to go up against power, it's to sort of jump into that, that those dark waters and not know where if you can swim against the storm. And that takes really powerful people to be willing to be willing to do that. And there have been powerful people in history who are willing to do that. But you are almost sacrificing yourself.

[B]

I know. And it's a tough ask of people. They have lives and children and, you know, still, they have dreams still in their lives. You know, people, some of these powerful people have no problem just crushing them, you know, like it doesn't even matter, you know. So I want to thank you for being on terror, talking about this. It's. I know it's difficult for a lot of people out there, so I appreciate you guys on this issue. Just one last thing. Do you have any predictions about any of this? Do you think we're going to find out any more or are you Cynical about it or hopeful. Where. Where are you?

[C]

I think the more you tell people, look away, look away, the more likely that the truth will be revealed. I've always believed that. I'm not religious really, but I do believe that all that is sort of hidden will be revealed and there will be great journalism from this. More will come out that will keep the story alive. I know that it was not alive for a while, but I think that the fact that they said case closed and I was even hopeful as a journalist when I would talk to my law enforcement sources that they were still working on this, I think that more will be revealed. Because the more you say look away, look away. I mean, like me, I'm. Like I'm. I can't stop. No.

[B]

Like why? You're a journalist. Right.

[C]

And I know more stuff is going to come out soon. There'll be more. And Virginia Giuffre's diary will come out. Her memoir will come out in October. That's gonna be really explosive. And I think that'll just continue the national interest in this story. And I hope that people will continue to support the truth seekers and the survivors and the people who platform them like you and, and that, you know, we'll all be protected as we seek for justice. So. Yeah.

[B]

Great. Well, thank you so much, Terror Palm area guys. Thank you so much, Sarah, for being here and talking about this important issues. We're going to keep following you out there in the world, whether it's red letter, your great reporting. You know, whenever you pop up on tv, it's always great seeing you. Thanks.

[C]

Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, Larry. Bye.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[C]

I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenante, Adam Stewart, who handles my thumbnails, and Abby Baker on my social media. If you want to support my independent journalism and get my scoop straight to your inbox, please sign up for the red letter. You can do that by going to tarapaulmary.com that's T A R A P A L M E R I dot com. You can obviously share this with your friends. Like subscribe, leave a written review. I'm not backing down. I'm back from my vacation. I feel so much stronger. Thank you to all of you who have sent me notes. Just turned 38 and it's gonna be 30. Great. And I really feel positive about what I am able to accomplish with this community, what we can all do. And I appreciate all the tips and everything you've sent to me. And of course, I'll be in D.C. on Wednesday, so check out my social media. I'll be on. I'll be on msnbc. I'll be on Nicole Wallace's show. I'll be doing a live on Substack with Terry Moran. You can go to Substack. I'm on there at Tara Palmeri here. And I'll be live from the Capitol. So check out all of my social media, check out my podcasts, everything. I will be there. Twitter X, whatever they're calling it now. I'll be back again soon.