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- [00:00]
Tara Palmeri
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Welcome back to the Tara Palmieri Show. With Virginia's memoir out Nobody's Girl Shaking the World. I've been thinking about her a lot. And I've been thinking about what it takes to be believed and how sad it is that she's finally seeing it after her death. But there were a number of things that I learned from Virginia. Five things that I hope to share with you about what it's like to be a survivor of sexual abuse and what it was like to be a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein. For Virginia, validation mattered more than evidence. She writes in her book that sure, she would have liked the chef Adam Perry Lang to give her incontrovertible evidence or, or the pilot to hand over all the flight logs or the houseman to confirm that he paid her and saw her naked, but for her, what she really was searching for was validation. She wanted these people to say, yes, Virginia, I remember you. I'm here for you now. And I know this may seem naive to a lot of you who think, why would people that worked for Jeffrey Epstein for decades decide that they were suddenly going to side with the women who were abused by him? But she really hoped for people's better angels. She thought now that he's dead, they wouldn't be afraid of him anymore. I mean, she writes about being afraid of him herself. When they said that they knew where her brother went to school, but for her, she just wanted them to see her as a person, to be validated, to realize like what she went through was real and worthy of being protected. And she tried to explain to me that even the smallest truth, a single crumb, meant everything. And, you know, she saw value in our trip. And I don't think she wouldn't have written about it if she didn't, even though there were so many dial tones, slammed doors, hang ups, and so much silence. But yeah, Virginia really had a lot of hope. And I learned that from her. The second thing I learned from Virginia is that the survivors are punished for speaking out, not protected. Our culture just protects the powerful and it punishes the vulnerable. Virginia was labeled a liar and a teen prostitute since she started telling her story in 2011. She was dismissed for not being the perfect victim. And you Know powerful people like Prince Andrew, they were receiving protection in the press, legal shielding, credibility and sex crimes. Prosecutor Deborah Turkheimer, who wrote a book called Credible, she writes about this. It's called the credibility discount. And it particularly affects vulnerable women. And she says that powerful men who they come out against, they have a credibility inflation because they are famous, they have notoriety. And the community tends to side with them over vulnerable women who they say are seeking paydays or want money or attention. And so for the victims who are brave enough to speak out to tell their truth, what happens is that the community rejects them and they're often re traumatized again. And according to Turkheimer, this is often even more traumatizing than the abuse itself. So it takes a lot of courage to come out and to tell stories of abuse. And that's why you don't hear it so often. That's why you find out after someone finally breaks through that there were so many others. They just needed one person. And Virginia was that person in the Epstein story. She was the first person. For Virginia, being believed was dangerous. Once Jeffrey Epstein was arrested in 2019 and people started to listen to her and take her seriously, she started getting threats, dealing with emotional trauma. When we were knocking on doors, one of the adult models she said she was forced to sleep with told her, Jeffrey's dead and you helped kill him. She said that her, she had a break in at her house and you know, she basically lived in fear for telling the truth. And for that I am grateful for her courage because it is not easy to tell the truth, especially when you are up against powerful, powerful people and you've been trafficked to as many as three dozen people. And that's perhaps why even in her death, she still didn't name all the names of the people that she was trafficked to. This is the fourth thing I learned from Virginia and from the current state of our political system right now and the way it was actually for the past three decades, the system still refuses to listen. We have to remember that for the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, they know what's in the files. They are the truth. They told their stories over and over and over again. And yet Congress has not asked them to testify. And in fact, what we have learned from the House Oversight Committee that Alex Acosta, the U.S. attorney of Florida at the time who created the sweetheart deal for Jeffrey Epstein, he didn't read the victim's testimonies. In fact, there was a recommendation of a 60 count indictment from an 82 page memo. But he believed that these Women would suffer a withering impeachment from Jeffrey Epstein's attorneys that they could not defend themselves before a jury. Cash Patel, the FBI director, has not read the witness testimonies. And the question is, what does it take for these people to take the survivor seriously? How hard do they have to knock on the door of justice? How many times do they have to tell their stories, retraumatizing themselves to actually be heard? Are they destined to remain nobody's girls? You know, I've thought about it and I wonder, has the me too moment actually made a difference for women like Virginia? Has it backfired? Have we over corrected? I'd be curious to hear what you think. Leave me some comments and write to me. I wonder where we truly are right now. Number five. What I've learned from Virginia and the other survivors of Jeffrey Epstein is that they feel that they carry the burden for everyone. For Virginia, she lived with the scars and the trauma of what Jeffrey Epstein did to her. And she didn't do anything about it for a long time, for almost a decade. And it wasn't until she saw her daughter's eyes and she thought to herself, I can't let this happen to anyone else. And that is when she started speaking out and that's when she started getting attacked to. And it was the same for Jane do one Courtney Wilde, who didn't think it was worth it to tell her story, to protect herself. She didn't think it was worth it to. To speak with prosecutors, to. To tell her own story. But it was when she read the deposition of her best friend that she realized that what happened in Jeffrey Epstein's house was wrong and it shouldn't have happened to her. But the abuse had so degraded her and made her feel so unworthy that she didn't think she was worth fighting for. And let's not forget, when FBI agents and prosecutors were trying to reach these victims, Jeffrey Epstein told them that they were coming for them, not him. He told them that they were teenage prostitutes and that they could use his lawyers because they were the ones who were in trouble, not him. And they were so manipulated by him they had no one there looking out for them that they believed him. They were truly nobody's girls. All these years later, they're the heroes in their own stories. The chef, the pilot, the house manager. They didn't come forward until they were compelled by the prosecutors to come forward. Actually, Juana Lessi, who let Virginia and I into his house and only gave out breadcrumbs of truth. He ended up being a very critical witness in the case against Galen Maxwell. He saw a lot, but he would never acknowledge what Virginia said happened to the extent that Virginia said it happened. He knew there were young girls coming in out of the house. He picked them up from high school. He said some one of them was younger than Virginia, as young as 14, but didn't know what was happening in that house that he worked in for two decades. It's a lot to take in and I'm thankful to all of you for being so supportive during this time. Reading her book is traumatic and it is a really hard read and she even understands it herself. Putting stops and breaks in there so that people can actually take a breather and feel and not just feel overwhelmed by what she went through because her story is so dark. It is. I wasn't sure if it could ever be put to paper. It is, it is a harrowing tale. In this next segment, you'll see I went on Piers Morgan this morning, Wednesday morning and on the show it was a bit difficult. There were there, there were a few people that were very critical of Virginia. And as someone who spent a lot of time with her, I found her to be very credible. And it was a bit heated the back and forth. One of the men who is close to the Maxwell family, I had a real discussion with him about what do you think is an acceptable age to be a prostitute? Because that is how he kept referring to Virginia. And what do you think consent is? Is it normal for adults to be traveling around the country with teenagers? Got heated. Be curious to hear what you think. Thank you all for tuning in and I'll be back again tomorrow.
- [11:05]
Piers Morgan
Monday sidekick the AI agent that knows you and your business, thinks ahead and takes action. Ask it anything seriously. Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use.
- [11:17]
Tara Palmeri
Start a free trial today on Monday.com.
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Piers Morgan
Joining me on the panel is journalist and host of the Tara Palmeri Show. Tara Palmeri, the royal correspondent, Katie Nicholl, author of entitled the Rise and Fall of the House of York, Andrew Lanny and the former journalist and close confidant of Ghislaine Maxwell's family, Brian Basham. Well, welcome to all of you. Katie Nicholl, let me start with you. The ramifications for the royal family here are serious and I think they're beginning to understand the gravity of this unfurling scandal. We're now six years in with Andrew from when he did that interview and we're still. And it's getting worse. You're not getting better. And I don't see any way that this doesn't get even worse if more and more emails and stuff get leaked. But what should the Royal family do? You know, I've heard, all right, get him out of the Royal Lodge, the property. Okay, you know, you can do that. You can strip him of more titles, maybe drop the word prince if the king, sir. But I'm not sure that any of that actually addresses the key issue here with Andrew, which is accountability and a proper interview under oath by investigating authorities. That, to me, is probably more important to the victims than just continuing to shame and ridicule him and remove the trappings of his royal status.
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Katie Nicholl
But what do you think you just said? Didn't you appear as more important to the victims? And I think everything that Andrew has shown is that he has no empathy towards the victims, no compassion. Not once in any of this has he talked about the victims, which I think is abhorrent to most people. As for what did the royal family do? Well, I sat on your show this time last week before Friday's bombshell that he was being stripped of those titles, and I said, I think there is real pressure on the King to act and to act now. I mean, when you consider that he lost those titles, the right to use HRH back in 2022. It took up until now to actually forbid him from using the title that the Queen bestowed on his wedding day, the Duke of York. He remains a blood prince. It would take acts of Parliament to take that princely status away from him. There's a campaign being led by Labour crossbenches to do exactly that. But Charles is in between a rock and a hard place because I think he also recognizes that his brother has the potential to be a loose cannon. There is no end to what Andrew might do. There could be books, there could be other interviews. You know, Andrew knows where lots of skeletons are buried too. And I think that's probably why the Queen actually suggested and strongly convinced him to settle. Pay out that £12 million for this to go away, but at least it hasn't.
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Piers Morgan
On the question of his property, I think it's important to note here that it's not actually correct that he's paid no rent on this. So I read a BBC report into the official numbers behind this. So it appears that since he moved in, he has paid a total of seven and a half million pounds. We don't know where that money came from, but two and a half million was an upfront payment to assuage the rental that would otherwise be due annually for the period of the lease and 5 million was to go towards upkeep and repairs of the property itself. And his argument, apparently is that contractually he's abided fully by what he was supposed to do and that far from not paying rent, he has paid. No, it may not be as much as it should have been, but that contractually it might be very difficult, to, pardon the pun, dislodge him, because actually he has paid this amount of money into it.
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Katie Nicholl
He has. And it was the late Queen's wishes that he stayed there. I mean, obviously his daughters have grown up, they live their own lives, they have their own homes, but he and Sarah Ferguson, when she's over here, live there. And the Queen didn't want for him to lose that palatial home. I think it's got 30 rooms when you consider the future King and Queen. William and Catherine are living in a very modest four bedroom house in Windsor and Adelaide Cottage. I mean, they are in the process of moving. That would have been a perfect family home for them. And we know that they. The King is doing a big shuffle of Royal residences. But again, I wonder if he fears forcing Andrew out, even though the public optics, I think, will be very much supported by the public is something that will antagonize Andrew and I think they are worried about antagonizing him.
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Piers Morgan
Yeah. Tara, let me bring you in here because you've been getting quite emotional, understandably, in your recent clips that I've seen, because you actually toured around with Virginia Giuffre in knocking on doors of people who worked for Epstein. She talks about this in this posthumous book. Obviously it was a very powerful and emotive thing that you were doing. You know, for those who haven't read the book, just tell me what you were doing with Virginia and the impact that it had on you.
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Tara Palmeri
So after Epstein died, Virginia believed that the people that worked for him would feel safe enough to come forward and confirm the horrors of her abuse. So she thought, you know, why don't we talk to these people? We can go to the pilot, Larry Vasowski, who worked for Epstein for decades on the Lolita Express. We'll go to the house man, Juana Lesi, we'll talk to the chef, Adam Perry Lang, we'll try to speak to adult models that technically worked for him and we'll see if they'll actually verify these stories and cooperate her, because for so long, as you've seen she's been called a teen prostitute, a liar, and finally the press was acknowledging her and willing to hear her story. And so she felt that this was the moment to seize it and to try to. To. To verify it. And so we went on this cross country journey together, and we knocked on these doors and we delivered notes and we called people. And it was really heartbreaking for her. And she writes in her book that for her, it was really about validation. She didn't believe that these people would completely corroborate her story because it would make them seem culpable. It would make them seem that they were participants in a massive sex crime operation, but she wanted them to at least acknowledge her. And in the book, she does write about being allowed into the home of the house manager. I was there with her. And, you know, he embraced her, recalled the time they spent together. But he said very clearly, no, Virginia, I didn't know what was happening to you. But yes, I cleaned off the dildos afterwards. I mean, that's what he testified to police. And before we spoke to him, he had never spoken to the press before, but he created these lines that he felt would protect him from any sort of culpability. And I remember when we left the house, I asked her, how are you feeling? And she's like, I feel so happy. And I was like, how do you feel happy. That man was clearly covering for himself the entire time. That was the man who was driving. Ghislaine Maxwell, the day when you were recruited, was told to stop so that she could get out of the car and. And talk to you at the Mar A Lago spa. This is the man who drove you home when you were crying after your first night at Epstein's house. And you feel happy just because he acknowledged you. And it was a reminder of the breadcrumbs that she settled for throughout her entire life and how little these survivors have even received. I mean, Alex Acosta admits he didn't even read the victim statements, but decided that they would die with the wrong impeachment. Kash Patel has never read a victim statement before, and yet they've decided we. What these women are capable of. And it was a really. It was a very emotional thing to see. But she believed in better angels of people who for so long helped a sex trafficker. Whereas I felt very jaded by the whole thing.
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Piers Morgan
Atara, how credible was Virginia in the time that you were with her? You had talked a lot about all this stuff. A lot of people have raised issues about her credibility. They cite, for example, the case with Alan Dershowitz where she made allegations against him and then conceded that it may have been Mistaken identity. And that case obviously all went away. People have latched onto that to say, well, that shows that she may have got all of this wrong. She might be wrong about Andrew. Maybe he was mistaken identity. You've heard all this.
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Tara Palmeri
What's your feeling about that in those cases when she. There are some things that I can't speak about on the record, but in the cases where she conceded that she may have not known the identity, she was under a lot of pressure and she made that known in her statements as well.
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Brian Basham
And.
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Tara Palmeri
And she wanted the lawsuits to end and she said what she had to say to make those lawsuits end. She was incredibly consistent in the time that I spent with her. We used the same fact checkers that they used at the New Yorker for the Harvey Weinstein, the Harvey Weinstein reporting. We never relied on Virginia as a single source. We made sure to corroborate everything I heard much more depravity than we could even include in this podcast. Broke in Jeffrey Epstein. But I found her to be incredibly credible.
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Piers Morgan
Do you believe then the. Even notwithstanding what she's put in the book, that there is even more stuff out there involving Virginia and all the others?
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Tara Palmeri
She was. Has been trafficked to at least three dozen men. She showed me, you know, the list of the men and it's jaw dropping. And she doesn't even go. She doesn't even name their names in the book. She doesn't go into it. I think she knows that it's what the burden that these women have to prove their story is so high. And what she has gone through with Alan Dershowitz, I believe that broke her. I really do. The attacks she for so long was called a liar. Her story was so unbelievable. We have to remember that the Crown only acknowledged her in 2022 when they gave her that payout. But she started talking about Prince Andrew in 2011 and she was dragged through the press for that. You know, she wasn't the perfect victim, but if you look at her story of abuse, she has been through so many cycles of abuse throughout her life and then going on to be living to be homeless, only to try to start her life again and then be spotted by Ghislaine Maxwell, she was the perfect prey. These were the type of broken women that Glenn Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein sought out. The kind of girls, the kind of vulnerable, vulnerable women who have a credibility deficit because of how vulnerable they are, because of how broken their homes are because she was living in a trailer with her friends at the time when they found her. Who is going to believe this girl. There's a reason that they did not target the wealthy daughters of his friends who he trafficked these girls to.
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Piers Morgan
Brian Basham, let's turn to your view of this because I believe your view is that you don't believe that Virginia had any relationship with Prince Andrew, for example, never had sex with him.
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Brian Basham
Well, it's a bit more than that, Piers. I, in a random fashion, I've made a bit of money and I conduct investigations. I decided after getting a lot of calls from the press that I'd look into this. And I was lucky enough to stumble across a chap called Jake Beecher who is a police trained investigator who had a website called the Max Files. And it was intriguing because he demonstrated to me that Virginia Jeffrey was a fantasist and a liar. So I've set up a little publishing company. I've set up a little publishing company and I'm going to publish a book, I hope in the new year. It's entitled the Prince, the President and the Puppets. And I see that one of Virginia Jeffrey's titles refers to puppets because I believe, I'm sure in fact not believe, this has been a huge blackmail ring with Prince Andrew. He couldn't go into the. It's nonsense to suggest that he did it because he's guilty. He wants you to go into court, I am sure, assured. But the Queen didn't want him to do it. Why? Because it would completely mess up her jubilee and quite understandably. And 12 million to the Queen, who is one of the richest women in the world, not a vast amount of money. So I am absolutely puzzled why anybody believes a word that Virginia Jeffrey says. We have found 50 completely verified lies that she's told and I've put it to the frontest piece of the book. She made I think maybe 30 million out of all this.
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Piers Morgan
I'm going to come to you, Tara, to respond to that because you're over this.
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Brian Basham
Go on.
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Tara Palmeri
Do you want me to say something? No, I was just going to say. Okay, so Virginia Giuffre is a liar. Okay, this is what you're saying. I mean if you look at this picture of her from. With Naomi Campbell at her party, her 31st birthday party, that is a young, young girl.
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Brian Basham
But she became venal, she became manipulated and she became a tool of blackmail.
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Tara Palmeri
What is, what are two adults, okay, Glenn Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein doing traveling around the world? This is in central.
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Brian Basham
I have no idea.
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Tara Palmeri
What are they doing traveling around the world?
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Katie Nicholl
Somebody.
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Brian Basham
Things together to suit your case? You're Making money out of this like.
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Piers Morgan
Everybody else has made money.
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Brian Basham
And it's easy.
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Tara Palmeri
She is all over their. Their flight logs.
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Brian Basham
What she traveled. She's a collaborator of Jeffrey Epstein's. She recruited.
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Tara Palmeri
Somebody else's child, traveling around the world with her.
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Brian Basham
Yes, because she was a collaborator. She was having sex, she was enjoying it, she was having drugs, she's going to sunny places.
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Tara Palmeri
You think that. You think that. You think that a girl that looks like that, I don't know what was in the United States you couldn't even get into.
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Piers Morgan
Let's not talk over each other. Let me stop you there, Brian, please. I want to bring in, because you'll be waiting very patiently, Andrew here. You're the author of the House of York best selling book. Now, off the back of Andrew's part in the scandal and his story, you know, look, most people are accepting that Virginia Giuffre's testimony is accurate. I mean, I've let Brian say his piece and there are people that think that about Virginia Giuffre. So you've gotta hear the other side of it. But I believe that Virginia Giuffre's book is the real story here. What is your view?
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Andrew Lanny
Well, my view is I'm a Cambridge trained historian. I spent four years on this book. Everything I discovered about Andrew was a lie. Everything that I discovered about Virginia Giffery was true. Many of the things I found were quite separate from what has appeared in her book, but actually backs up exactly what she said in her book. And I think the point we need to make. And she's only part of my book. But Andrew has not offered himself to law enforcement agencies or to the victim's lawyers. He ran up to Balmoral to save a summon that's been served on him. And I think personally he should face charges. He should be investigated for a whole series of things quite separate from Epstein misconduct in a public office. But I think having looked at all the evidence myself, I cannot see that she isn't with, apart from a few inconsistencies, a very valuable contributor to her. And without Virginia Giffrey, this story would not have come out. And we have to pay tribute to that. And I think the great justice is that even posthumously, here she is finally bringing to justice some of these men.
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Piers Morgan
Right?
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Brian Basham
Andrew, you wrote a great book about print, about Louis Mountbatten, a terrific book with which I gave you some help with Prince Andrew. I told you when you got on the gravy train and started to write about him that he was innocent. And I sent you Evidence that he was innocent. I'm friend.
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Andrew Lanny
I didn't believe your evidence. I tested your evidence and it didn't add up. So you know, I know you were.
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Brian Basham
Trying to influence me because you haven't investigated and I have. You've investigated, Andrew. I've spent four years investigating Virginia Giuffre with the help of a police trained investigator who's written a detailed book. He's not as eloquent as you, but he's written a detailed book. And I've been helping him because I admire him. He then went off to Ukraine and risked his life.
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Andrew Lanny
Right, well, you're entitled to your own view. All I can say is I got a doctorate in research, so I don't need to have any lessons from Brian Basham, thank you.
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Brian Basham
Yes, you do. I'm afraid. No, I don't. Because you're gravy training. You joined the dance on Prince Andrew's reputation.
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Piers Morgan
I came to this completely independent. You know what, Brian? You know what, Brian? Here's the problem with your stoic defense of Prince Andrew. Prince Andrew went on. Well, hang on, hang on.
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Brian Basham
I carry no brief.
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Piers Morgan
Okay, fine.
- [28:11]
Brian Basham
This is a piece of shit.
- [28:12]
Piers Morgan
Fine. Okay. But Andrew, let's remind ourselves, went on national television and said he had no more contact with Epstein after the famous walk in Central park in New York. And then we know from emails leaked last week that was a lie. He carried on having contact with him for sustained period after this. We don't know where this is all going to lead, but certainly as things stand, when I hear him say, I don't remember ever meeting her, this picture may have been faked and so on, all the credibility around those denials now looks extremely suspect because it's been proven, in his own words to have lied about the timeline. Let me just hold the panel there for a moment. Going to be joined now by Sir Anthony Selden, constitutional expert, author and historian. Sir Anthony, great to have you back on uncensored. Really good to see you. There are potential constitutional implications here. What is your assessment of how damaging this could be to the monarchy, the Royal Family? What powers does the King have, for example, to say for argument's sake to strip Andrew of the title of Prince and all other titles, or to remove him from his royal property and so on.
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Sir Anthony Selden
So I think that many people have priced in over many years the fact that Prince Andrew is who he is and how damaging it is to the Royal Family. It's clearly not good news. I mean, the Royal family, I happen to be a supporter, are working extraordinarily hard, and with illness in two of the most senior royals not helping, they are working incredibly hard to promote values of goodness and kindness and charity and support for the vulnerable. And here is something that is absolutely counter to that. So, I mean, it's not good news. Is it going to get rid of the monarchy or significantly rocket even if more bad stories come out? I'm not so sure about that. I think people, you know, really have, you know, they've priced it in. But, yeah, I think there is a strong case. I mean, ideally, we've heard already that it's very unlikely, but if Andrew himself was to leave the Royal Lodge and to make himself, he says that he is innocent, will open himself out then to the full investigative process. And I think that if he doesn't do that, then, well, the King, Prince William, whoever, has already acted, then he opens himself up, if these stories go on and on with all the unwelcome noise, to yet more decisive action against him. I mean, you know, if Prince Andrew is the person he says he is, somebody who cares about the Royal Family, somebody with a sense of duty and honor, it's obvious what he does. He leaves the Royal Lodge, he goes somewhere smaller, and he opens himself up and helps this investigation process by revealing what he does know. And that is the obvious thing to do if he cares for the Royal Family. They're his own family and for the good of the country.
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Piers Morgan
I believe the last time a dukedom was taken away from a senior royal was more than 100 years ago in 1919, when Prince Charles Edward, one of Queen Victoria's grandsons, lost the title of a Duke of Albany for fighting on the German side during World War I. Fascinating little historical snippet. I'm sure you were well aware of that. It's obviously a very unusual thing for certainly for senior members of the Royal family to lose titles.
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Sir Anthony Selden
I mean, I think there were two actually who lost their dukedoms in 1919, following the 1917 Act. So, yeah, I mean, I think that shows, you know, over 100 years, what a big deal this is. And in that time, we've seen the loss of the hrhs and we've seen the abdication. I think it's really unhelpful that this continues the monarchy or Andrew himself, he says, but really the monarchy did what it thought it needed to do in losing that dukedom. I think it's now, I think all roads lead to Andrew, and for Andrew to do what, frankly, any decent, honest person would do, it's entirely obvious. And if he doesn't, then I think no one will have, not least those people who've been trying to advise him, whoever they are and who he hasn't been listening to will feel, well, he just thoroughly deserves whatever ignominy and disgrace would be coming his way. I mean, the funny thing about life is if one actually does the honest and decent thing, it's incredibly painful to do it. But actually it's better for everybody as well as for you and the people, including his own family, who care most for him.
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Piers Morgan
Yeah. I mean, the big problem he has now is that he, he did that interview with Emily Maitlis claiming, you know, this is the truth. I'm finally speaking out. I'm going to clear my name. And all it did was make it 100 times worse. And now we have the leaks from the U.S. congress of him in his own words, in emails, directly contradicting what he told Emily Maitlis. Therefore, he lied to her. And once, you know, he lied about certain aspects of that interview, you then turn to the big picture, claims and denials. I don't remember ever meeting Virginia Duffrey and so on, and you start to ask questions about all of it. That's the problem. He's got.
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Sir Anthony Selden
Exactly.
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Piers Morgan
Sir Anthony, great to have you back. Thank you very much indeed. Appreciate it. Well, joining me now is the Massachusetts congressman, Stephen Lynch. Welcome to Uncensored. Congressman, good to be with you.
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Stephen Lynch
Piers.
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Piers Morgan
There is a process here that's unraveling in the US Congress. We're getting leak after leak coming out of here. We don't quite know where it's all going to go. One of the more mystifying aspects of this is that prior to the election, President Trump and his team were very gung ho about releasing all the Epstein files. And yet for some reason that hasn't happened, hence the drip, drip, drip now of leaks. What would you like to see happen now?
- [34:39]
Stephen Lynch
Well, we would like to have obviously the Epstein files that the FBI put together over a long period of time fully revealed to have full access to Congress first and then also to the public. That that would be very helpful. And then bring in those witnesses who are, who might, based on the files, be able to contribute to some of the questions underlying this whole stream of abuse. We've had an opportunity to meet and to interview a number of the survivors here. Those women came in and by the way, they all had very high confidence in their relationship with Virginia Duffrey, unlike one of your guests there. There's a real bond there among these victims and some of them shared that whole experience, there were 36 young women who came forward to allege abuse. So there's more credibility on the witness side here and on the victim side than some of your guests would acknowledge. The troubling part about Prince Andrew is that his contacts with Jeffrey Epstein are after the fact that Epstein was convicted and was a, was a registered sex offender from his activities in Florida, the state prosecution there. So Epstein was a convicted registered sex offender at the time that the prince and he were having their association. That's troubling. So I think based on that, the, the committee and we have people who are interested on both sides, the Republicans and the Democrats, who would like to gather as much information. And that's why I think we'd be interested in. We'd have the votes if that were a direction we'd like to go in to ask Prince Andrew to offer what he might know about this whole affair.
- [36:54]
Piers Morgan
But you can't compel him to testify, can you, if he's here in the uk?
- [37:00]
Stephen Lynch
No, not at this point, no.
- [37:01]
Piers Morgan
Do you think it would be the honorable thing to do for Andrew to now lay himself open to all investigating authorities?
- [37:10]
Stephen Lynch
You would hope that that's what someone would do in this position. You know, there are all these victims out there, these survivors, and so to get to the very bottom of it, it would be helpful.
- [37:23]
Piers Morgan
Congressman lynch, thank you very much indeed for joining me. I appreciate it.
- [37:26]
Stephen Lynch
Thank you, Pierce.
- [37:27]
Piers Morgan
Go back to the panel. I mean, Katie, it is a hell of a mess this, isn't it? And it's getting, and it's getting worse. There are people like Brian Basham who have tried to discredit Virginia Giuffre.
- [37:38]
Brian Basham
The vast majority have discredited. And I've got the evidence.
- [37:42]
Piers Morgan
These are your claims. Just to be clear, Brian, these are your claims. I interviewed Virginia. I'm going to have my say now. I interviewed David. I interviewed David Boies.
- [37:53]
Brian Basham
Of course you did.
- [37:55]
Piers Morgan
Yeah. Well, he's one of the most well regarded and successful criminal lawyers in modern America. Let me finish, Brian, please. He is. David Boies is one of the most eminent and well regarded and successful criminal lawyers in modern American history.
- [38:10]
Brian Basham
Did you ask him how much he's made out of this?
- [38:12]
Piers Morgan
He's a lawyer. He gets paid for his work.
- [38:14]
Brian Basham
He doesn't get paid for his work. He's getting about half. What is the payout according to evidence he could have made with his others.
- [38:23]
Piers Morgan
Why is that a criticism? Why are you criticizing him for that?
- [38:28]
Brian Basham
I'm not criticizing him. I'm questioning the motives of Everybody involved.
- [38:33]
Piers Morgan
Well, I don't question the motives of David Boyes. He represents Virginia Giuffre and he represented a number. Well, let me speak, please. And a number of other victims of Epstein. And he made it crystal clear to me, seen the files. He says that Donald Trump is not incriminated, which I thought was interesting. This is two weeks ago we spoke. But there are a number of powerful men who are incriminated and a number of whom should face criminal prosecution. But he had absolutely no doubt, for example, that the picture of Virginia Giuffre with Andrew and Ghislaine Maxwell is genuine. They had it forensically tested. It is a genuine photograph. Andrew. Andrew's tried to discredit that. I believe you've tried to discredit that.
- [39:14]
Brian Basham
No, I haven't at all. I agree that it's gender.
- [39:17]
Piers Morgan
So what's she doing there with Andrew upstairs in that house at the age of 17?
- [39:21]
Brian Basham
I don't know.
- [39:23]
Piers Morgan
What would you guess, Brian?
- [39:26]
Brian Basham
He was traveling with Jeffrey Epstein. She was servicing Jeffrey Epstein in many ways by recruiting girls at the time. She was, by the way, 17.
- [39:35]
Piers Morgan
She was 17 years old.
- [39:37]
Brian Basham
So if he had had sex with her in England, he wouldn't have been wrong.
- [39:39]
Piers Morgan
But he didn't. Right. But she was, she was 17, he was 41.
- [39:45]
Brian Basham
Well, I think that's very bad news. But it's not the first time that's happened, has it?
- [39:49]
Piers Morgan
Why do you believe that that picture is genuine but don't believe what Virginia.
- [39:53]
Brian Basham
Giuffre says his wife is? I don't know. I mean, it doesn't add up. He's not guilty. When you say why did he, what you can't say is he did.
- [40:03]
Piers Morgan
I'm not saying he did, I'm just saying what is he doing? What is he doing upstairs in a townhouse in London with his arm around a 17 year old girl with Ghislaine Maxwell, who's Now serving a 20 year sentence for helping traffic young girls with Jeffrey Epstein. What is the Prince Andrew of the British Royal Family doing in that incriminating picture with that young girl?
- [40:26]
Brian Basham
You say upstairs a complying office. It is something to do with bedrooms.
- [40:30]
Piers Morgan
I have no idea.
- [40:32]
Brian Basham
Well, you're saying upstairs.
- [40:33]
Piers Morgan
It was upstairs. It's a fact.
- [40:34]
Brian Basham
Yes, I know it's a mew's house downstairs. I don't. It's a garage, but it's. I think that's what I think. It's just organized like a muse housing. The kitchens are downstairs. I can't remember. I've been in the house I think actually all the living area is on the. On the first floor, so I. So when you say upstairs, I think that's just smear.
- [40:53]
Piers Morgan
And you believe that Ghislaine Maxwell is innocent?
- [40:55]
Brian Basham
I don't have any view about Ghislaine Maxwell at all. I do know, because I haven't investigated Ghislaine Maxwell and I do not speak for Glenn Maxwell. I don't actually like Ghislaine Maxwell very much. I've only met her six times. I tried to help her some years ago with her Terra Maar charity simply because I'm a scuba diver. She had a genuine love for the ocean. So do I. And I did it pro bono. It's the only time I've met her. So I don't speak for Gillen Maxwell. I am investigating and I've investigated many, many companies and people. That's what I do for a living.
- [41:28]
Piers Morgan
No, I know your background. Let me come to Kelly Nicholls. I mean, Katie, look, you've got someone there who just doesn't believe Virginia Giuffre is credible. Tara, who has actually spent a lot of time with Ginny Giuffre, has no doubt that she was telling the truth. And in fact, this may be the tip of the iceberg, this book. There are startlingly damaging, scandalous revelations in there. A former prime minister who raped her, for example. Senators are named, not named, but they're accused and so on. What is your view? I mean, where does this go?
- [42:00]
Katie Nicholl
Well, it's. I mean, you know, posthumously. She has opened up Pandora's box and there are many, many names, some of which may come out, I mean, just to bring this back to Prince Andrew. And I think it's very simple that if he has nothing to hide, then he absolutely needs to be investigated, as we just heard from one of your other guests. That can't be in America. But we do know when we're talking about people that have tried to disrupt, discredit, Virginia Giuffre, Andrew was one of them. And we know that because of one of the many exclusives in the Mail on Sunday in which they printed those emails of him asking a ppo, a personal protection officer, who, by the way, the British taxpayer pays for and funds. Which is why all of this does lead to a big question, big greater question about monarchy, to dig for dirt on her. Now, why would you do that for someone that you can't remember meeting, don't know if you met, don't know if you went upstairs. None of it makes sense. I think if any justice is to be done. It will probably be on British soil. Will it happen with a Met Police investigation? I hate to say it, but I.
- [43:01]
Piers Morgan
Think probably not, as I found also.
- [43:03]
Andrew Lanny
Similar material of him trying to smear her using PR people immediately afterwards.
- [43:08]
Brian Basham
PR people, Andrew? I don't know that. And I've been looking into it. I haven't found any PR people who've tried to smear her at all. I found that Prince Andrew looked into her and why wouldn't he? He doesn't remember meeting this woman. She's making the most terrible claims about him, which are? I've told you completely lies and I can demonstrate that. I've written to the chairman of Bertelsman, a long letter making the points about the way in which she's lied. And I can't show you that because I got in front of a lawyer.
- [43:44]
Piers Morgan
Tara. Let me bring Tara back here. I mean, look, you've got someone there who just doesn't believe Virginia Giuffre. Like I said, there are other people.
- [43:51]
Tara Palmeri
She doesn't seem to think that sex crimes against young people are that serious in America. She could not have consented. Okay? Because we have higher standards. She couldn't even be in the nightclub that she was at with Prince Andrew that night. She would not have an ID to get into there. Perhaps we have better standards in terms of protecting children. I don't know if you ever spend any time with teenage girls, but when they were 17 years old, they do not have the same brain development of a girl.
- [44:21]
Brian Basham
Two daughters and we have. We have.
- [44:25]
Tara Palmeri
And you would be perfectly comfortable with them spending time with a 41 year old man?
- [44:29]
Brian Basham
Of course I'm not. Don't be silly. I'm not saying anything like that at all. You're trying to smear people with no evidence.
- [44:37]
Piers Morgan
Well, actually, you're smearing. You're the one doing the smearing. You're smearing Virginia Giuffre.
- [44:42]
Brian Basham
No, I'm not smearing Virginian.
- [44:43]
Piers Morgan
You are. You called her a liar.
- [44:45]
Brian Basham
I'm giving you my views and if you have the time, here's I'll come to see you with a file an inch thick and show you exactly why I'm stating that she is a liar and not to be believed at all. And why you should possibly say that Prince Andrew is not to be believed because he's lied about one incident or two incidents in the make. Listen. Interview. But believe this woman. I can't understand. You're a journalist. You have some standards. Why do you believe him? Why do you not believe him? And you do believe her?
- [45:21]
Piers Morgan
Well, I don't believe. I don't believe him because we've now seen email evidence that he lied.
- [45:27]
Brian Basham
But I can give you the evidence.
- [45:28]
Piers Morgan
In his own words. He reveals the truth in the emails that he lied about to Emily Maitlis. It's categoric. It is unambiguous. He lies and he presents a picture of an ongoing friendship in which they could play together. And we know what the idea of playing was to Epstein and involved abusing young girls.
- [45:50]
Tara Palmeri
Tara, her story has remained consistent. And she is not the only person.
- [45:54]
Brian Basham
Who has your story. But you haven't.
- [45:57]
Tara Palmeri
No, no, no. But she's not.
- [45:58]
Brian Basham
That's what I wrote to the chairman.
- [46:00]
Piers Morgan
Can you allow her to speak, please?
- [46:01]
Tara Palmeri
What about Joanna Schoberg? Okay. She writes about Joanna Schoberg in her piece in her book. Joanna Schoberg is another victim of Jeffrey Epstein, who was in a scene with Prince Andrew in the book and is consistent with the same story that Joanna Schoberg has said about this puppet and how the puppet, Glenn Maxwell, used it to touch the breasts of the girls and they planted Joanna Schoberg on Prince Andrew's lap. There are a number of. I spoke to the houseman who said that Prince Andrew was in the house and he got massages, too. I mean, how can you say that? Prince Andrew spending all this time with a pedophile. With a pedophile who has pictures of young girls.
- [46:40]
Brian Basham
I can say it because I've investigated. I can say it because I've investigated it. There is not a chance that Prince Andrew had sex with underage girls, because if they had, they would have been at him like a swarm of hornets for compensation with the help of David Boynes. It just didn't happen. And that's why I wrote to the chairman of Bertelsman and I gave him a full page of evidence, all attested, always files assaulted, so to say. Be careful when you publish this book. So why haven't published it most irresponsibly?
- [47:18]
Tara Palmeri
Why was Prince Andrew friends with this pedophile, Jeffrey Epstein, for so long? What value did he see in relationship?
- [47:24]
Brian Basham
I have no idea. Maybe because he's a freeloader.
- [47:27]
Tara Palmeri
You did all of this investigating, but you didn't find out why they're friends?
- [47:31]
Brian Basham
Yes, because I assume I'm not. You can't. I have no evidence as to why. I assume that he was a freeloader who was trying to leech off Jeffrey Epstein, as was his wife.
- [47:46]
Piers Morgan
Okay, well, joining me now is a victim of Jeffrey Epstein, Rena. Okay. Rina, thank you very much indeed for joining me. Look, every conversation about Epstein is emotive. People get passionate, they get angry. A lot of contrary opinions flying around. First of all, what is your view of Jeffrey Epstein?
- [48:08]
Rina
First of all, I want to thank you, Piers, for having me on your show and giving me the space to speak my truth. Jeffrey Epstein was a very complicated man that had many layers. He wasn't just a predator. There are a lot of things about him that the public has yet to discover. I knew Jeffrey in a different way than most of the other girls. And I also knew back then that someday I was going to paint this big portrait of him. So right now, I'm actually working on my own book. And in my book, I paint the big picture, which is something that the government told me. When I met with the FBI and the prosecutors who were investigating the Maxwell case, they thanked me for my testimony, and they said that I helped them bring all the pieces of the puzzle together so they're not just victim testimonies. This man was a very, very evil man who was collecting information on a lot of people. That's something that I could say is absolutely true. That's something that he did with me.
- [49:23]
Piers Morgan
Right. So let's talk about your experience with him. How did he abuse you?
- [49:30]
Rina
So Jeffrey started by inviting me over to his house, and he used what I loved, which is I'm an artist. And he offered me opportunities. He knew that was my currency. My currency was not cash. I did not see hundred dollar bills. When I was around Jeffrey. I was never asked to give him any massages. So when I hear the other victims talk about the massage and massages, I can't really relate to that. Other than that some of the other abusers who participated in my abuse were actually. They were massage therapists. And there were several women who participated in my abuse. And that's something that he did. And I don't really want to reveal the details. I have children who may be watching this show, and I just. I never want them to hear any of this. He lured me in by offering me a scholarship to go to art school. That's one of the reasons why I kept going back. He commissioned me to make artwork, and eventually he provided an art studio, and that was his currency that he used on me. Eventually I started seeing the flaws. I had a real teacher. He told me he was going to be my teacher, he was going to be my mentor. And all the flaws just sort of reveal themselves. They cracked. I was comparing my real teacher who provided an amazing Opportunity. I was working on a year long project at the time. So I had two major art foundations who have been supporting my work since I was a high school student. And Jeffrey Epstein was a fraud. What he did with me was nothing but abuse and he knew that towards the end and he knew that I knew. So the last time I saw him, we both looked at each other and it was almost like I was staring at this con man who just abused me for two years and he knew that I was never going to come back.
- [51:44]
Piers Morgan
You had a very fractious relationship with Virginia Giuffre. You were suing her for defamation for falsely labeling you as Epstein's girlfriend or one of his recruiters. In July, a judge ruled that the seven and a half million pound lawsuit can be passed onto Virginia's estate despite her suicide. So the litigation is ongoing. Are you going to pursue this?
- [52:11]
Rina
We are waiting until the estate established, you know, there are some delays. That's what I've heard through her attorneys. I feel betrayed by Virginia. I feel that everything could have happened very differently. She. The way I view Virginia is she's a victim first and foremost. All the girls begin as victims. She went from being a victim to becoming a victimizer. And all those things that were said about me are absolutely not true. I'm a very credible witness. The government has identified me as being a witness only and not a recruiter or anything else. And I had to file this lawsuit to prove that I was a victim. And I think that that was just. It just took so much time away from my life. I should have been spending all this time healing and instead I was fighting her false allegations and she kept bullying and bullying and bullying me. And now I have this amazing team of therapists. I'm a full time patient. I have five in total. And I just want to move on. You know, we were about to go to trial with these two lawsuits and unfortunately it's very sad that she decided to end their life that way.
- [53:37]
Piers Morgan
When it comes to what she said about Prince Andrew and the fact that he settled for millions of dollars out of court with her, do you believe what she said about Andrew?
- [53:48]
Rina
I can't really give an opinion or testify to what she said about Prince Andrew, I can only stick with the facts. I never met Prince Andrew. I didn't hear his name when I was around Jeffrey Epstein. So I can't really say do I believe her or you know, do I? Have I met any witnesses that corroborate with her Prince Andrew stories? So I don't really have an opinion about him.
- [54:16]
Piers Morgan
Marina Rowe, thank you very much indeed for joining me. I appreciate it.
- [54:19]
Rina
Thank you for having me on your show. Piers.
- [54:22]
Piers Morgan
We go back to Tara. Finally here. Tara. You know, a lot of the women that I've talked to who were victims of Epstein, they're damaged people from the experience, there's no doubt about that. Some were damaged before they met him and he got worse. Some were damaged by him. Angelaine Maxwell, in the end, you know, I don't have reason to doubt the word of Virginia Giuffre. Others on this panel clearly do.
- [54:50]
Brian Basham
You.
- [54:50]
Piers Morgan
But it could be in the fog of war, if you like, around this scandal that not everything is going to be 100% memorized correctly. That doesn't mean that the substance of the overall picture is wrong. It is indisputable that Jeffrey Epstein was a serial predator of so many young female victims. It is indisputable that Ghislay Maxwell is serving a 20 year sentence for helping him traffic them. And so from that alone, you know, the idea that someone like Andrew, who was hovering around Epstein for a long period of time, many, many years, including after his conviction for being a paedophile, you know, it stretches credulity that he was some blameless bystander for all this time. At the very least, he is guilty of lying about how long he continued seeing a convicted predator.
- [55:41]
Tara Palmeri
Yeah, I have to agree with you. And I look back on that period of my life, I mean, 16, 17 years old, I can't tell you what day I did X, Y and Z. And I wasn't experiencing traumatic abuse daily. I wasn't spending time with adults who I wasn't. You know, that's the period of your life when you're living with your parents still. That's a period of your life when you're supposed to be going to school and growing and, and moving on to something great. And this is, these are for Virginia, a period of sex slavery, traveling around the world, meeting powerful people. Maybe that was partially intoxicating. But she had come from such a broken home and such a broken world that she was really holding onto everything. One of the really sad parts about the book and what she's tried to explain to me, which I just have a hard time wrapping my head around, is that she actually had compassion for Jeffrey Epstein. She loved him. A lot of these girls loved him because he was manipulative, he would, he.
- [56:48]
Brian Basham
Was paying her a lot of money and she was his collaborator.
- [56:51]
Tara Palmeri
What is an age that seems unacceptable to you?
- [56:53]
Brian Basham
I'm not offending Jeffrey Epstein, what is.
- [56:55]
Tara Palmeri
An acceptable age for prostitution for you?
- [56:58]
Piers Morgan
What I know we've got to leave you there. Thank you all very much indeed for just joining me. I appreciate it.
- [57:02]
Brian Basham
Thank you.
- [57:03]
Tara Palmeri
That was another episode of the Tara Palmeri Show. Thank you all for tuning in. It means so much to me, all of your support and encouragement. Please leave a comment. Please tell your friends about this. Please like it, rate it. This is how we keep going. If you like my reporting, you want to know more about it, please go to tara palmary.com where you can support my independent journalism by becoming a paid subscriber to the Red Letter. It's also a way to get my exclusive reporting straight to your inbox. We will get down to the bottom of this. Virginia has just opened Pandora's box. I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenate, Abby Baker, who does research and social media, Dan Schiffmacher, who also does editing and Adam Stewart, who does the graphics. I'll be back again tomorrow.