← The Tara Palmeri Show
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- [00:01]
A
Now we're live, and Ashley's first one in. A lot of people just joining, no question about it, because this is the story of the day. And Tara Palmeri, my former colleague at ABC News. But you've gone on to much bigger and better things in the world. Really, one of the. I do. I do, indeed. Because, you know, you have worked incredibly hard on this story, the Epstein story, and have made a name as a trusted and really, really authoritative source on what happened. And what I want to talk about, of course, is what happened today. Now, this is the best I can do because I'm so lo fi. But this Capitol Hill event today, they're out. Under the blue skies of a September morning. How many victims, survivors, I should say, of Jeffrey Epstein's predatory behavior were there or what happened? You were on the ground there for this event where we could hear the voices of the survivors, and it was pointed at a goal, too. Talk about what you heard, what you saw, what happened. Tara.
- [01:09]
B
It was an incredible experience. You know, we've been out there, sent to many press conferences in our lives, right? Standing outside listening to lawmakers standing speak. Sometimes we do hear from real people and we hear their stories, but it was for someone who's been covering this, you know, since Jeffrey Epstein's death, this was a really incredible moment just to see more survivors than I've ever seen before. New survivors that have never spoken out before on this, basically on the grounds of the halls of power outside, notably not inside where they should be, you know, on the floor giving testimony and telling their story, but outside demanding to be taken seriously, basically speaking out to the powerful people inside, many of them men, and say, listen to us, believe us, release the files. You know, in a way, standing up to what some see as very patronizing language from both the speaker of the House and the President of the United States, saying, we want to protect the innocent. They're there saying, who are the innocent? If you're saying we're the innocent, if you want to protect us, then release the files. We need sunlight. We need to know what happened. We need to know why there was such a broad injustice. And, you know, it was an amazing thing because, like, you know, you'll see members sometimes, you know, they do bipartisan legislation from time to time. But, you know, to see maga, you know, fire brands like Thomas Massey and Marjorie Taylor Greene, who was, by the way, very lucid, I was like, I was compelled by her, really. I really was. I thought that her speech was incredible. I thought it was one of the best Things I've heard, she just said, like, you know, this isn't, this is a story of trafficking. This should not be political. This should not. This, this used to just hear these women and their voices. You know, she really got to the heart of it, of being like a true class story story. And, and, and Ro Khanna, who represents Silicon Valley and some of the richest people in the world, who, by the way, of course, you know, wants to run for president at some point. And he does, he doesn't mind ruffling feathers with the establishment, because this isn't just the Republican establishment that's at risk in this. It's the Democratic establishment, too, who were friends with Jeffrey Epstein. So I do think, you know, it was a kind of incredible moment. And, and to hear the victims speak. Speak and to hear their survivors talk about their, their, their experiences and like, you know, it's, it's very hard. And a lot of people know that, that some of these survivors are older, that they were, you know, later teens or they were. And I say older they were in their later teens or some of them were twenties when they were trafficked. That doesn't make it any different. But the ones that came forward, some of them in 13, they met Jeffrey Epstein, 14, 15. I mean, for these women, I, I've known them for a while and I've been talking to them over the years and, and it has been a long and hard journey for them. It is really hard. And they have the older ones speak out for them because it has been a real struggle and to see Jenna out there speaking. And I remember the first time I met her, having dinner with her, and she was just like, just, she was still shaken from all of it. So many of them living with this as if it was their own shame that they could never share. And for them to speak out on the steps, on the grounds of, you know, the hallways of power, it was, it was a really amazing moment. But, you know, at the same time, you know, the president is saying it's a hoax, right? There's a flyover happening because he's got the president of Poland over there. And the flyover, you know, with these military planes, it's so loud, it's drowning the women out. They had to just stop and look up. And again, it's like the Defense Department, the masculine, the masculine energy kind of drowning them out. You know, the secretary.
- [05:02]
A
I mean, the, yeah. The symbolism of those planes drowning out the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein is, is too much. And as you just noted. So Donald Trump was asked about this gathering that, that you were at. And he said it's a Democrat hoax. You know, what was the reactual. I guess they did. Did people know about that? Did the word get out that that's.
- [05:24]
B
Reporters asked immediately, which was smart. And you know, Brad Edwards, who has long been an attorney for, for the victims, even doing a lot of pro bono case just for their crime victims rights. You know, he said, Donald Trump helped me with this case back in 2009, which is something I'd reported on, actually, that Donald Trump established a friendship with him, with Epstein, helped Brad pursue various lines of inquiry and people to talk to and people to subpoena. He actually subpoenaed Trump and, and Trump said, sat down with him and talked. I interviewed Brad about this and in one of my YouTube, in one of my, in one of my kind of like YouTube mini documentaries. But, you know, Trump was helpful and Trump hated him at the time because of this real estate dispute. But they were friends before that at the height of the sex trafficking ring. But at that point, Trump was only thinking revenge, not thinking that helping this lawyer would implicate him in any way. But he told Edwards, and it's always stuck with me. Trump told Edwards that when he went to Epstein's house, it asked about why there were so many young girls, the pool, which I was told they were often topless at the pool, that Epstein said, oh, it's a big brother, big sister program. And I always thought to myself, if that's what Donald Trump told a lawyer who was investigating Jeffrey Epstein, why didn't he at that, why didn't he at the point when he saw that also call the police? That's weird. Big Brother, big sister program, that just doesn't smell right. But, you know, he said, listen, Trump didn't sound like this when I worked with him in 2009 on the Epstein case, he was willing to help. And then one of the other women, Haley Robson, who was a teenage victim, she came out and said, Mr. President, Donald J. Trump, I am a registered Republican and I am here on the Capitol steps and I want, I would love for you to come over here and talk to me because this is not a hoax. I am a real person. We are human beings. And I thought that was really powerful. And this is something I've always tried to remind people. A lot of the victims that I worked with, they actually believe that Donald Trump would be the one to help this actually happen. They believe why? That's why they voted for him. But release the files. Release the files. He arrested Jeffrey Epstein in 2019. Let's not forget that, that the actual arrest happened during his administration, even though he kind of wanted it to go away. A lot of them are, come from conservative families, they're from Florida, Palm beach area. Um, and you know, Virginia Roberts Giuffre, who sadly died. I mean, she told me before she died that Elon Musk promised to release the files and she believed that Trump was going to help her release the file. She met Trump through Epstein, but she said that he, she never saw any of the girls with him, so that he was friendly to her. But, you know, this is. They were there, they weren't. They're not for the, the, the vast majority of them, they're just not political and they don't want this to be a political story.
- [08:32]
A
This is about justice. This is about identifying the predators, right? The people who were part of almost a nightmarish years long predatory program or whatever you'd call it, project that Jeffrey Epstein was his personal thing and it was something beyond. But I do have a question about the politics of it all. So Thomas Massie, Republican of Kentucky, he was there, right? Marjorie Taylor Greene, Republican of Georgia, was there, Were there other Republicans there?
- [09:07]
B
You know, I didn't see any others, but Nancy Mace was in the meeting yesterday and she was physically upset and left in tears. And you know, she often tells a story of how she was sexually abused at the Citadel when she was, you know, know, an officer, which is something that I think she's, she's long said that she struggled with. She, Lauren Boebert and, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, they broke with their Republican colleagues who right now are being told by the administration that it is an act of betrayal to, to, to, to vote to pass this law to release the files.
- [09:49]
A
I mean, that's remarkable really, that they've gone all the way from being released to files to. You are betraying the Trumpist Republican Party. And there are consequences for that if you come out now. So what's happening right now? Just bring us up to date on what the political and legislative calendar looks like. So this is an effort to get the files released and you have to do that through a measure, through Congress. Right? Or is this just a resolution calling for the, for the, for the, for them to release. They don't want to be put on the spot voting one way or the other. Right.
- [10:25]
B
Well, so Massey and Ro Khanna wanted a law, a law that would ensure that the Department of Justice would release the files. FBI, CIA, all of it. And they say, why should we, why why should we expect these agencies to self regulate? They're not going to do that. The only way we can do this is with a bill and a law that is passed. That is it. And now they've come out with some lighter version, a measure where they say they're going to allow the DOJ to come out in its own time. And we figured it out. We figured it out. And you know, it's always about protecting the victims. Protecting the victims. Victims are out there and they're saying, first of all, here's something obvious. They were able to convict Galen Maxwell using Jane does, using women who were not on the record. And here you have like, you know, three dozen women who are on the record, by the way, but they were able to use a combination of women on the record and Jane does witnesses, evidence to convict this woman who is sitting in a jail camp now thanks to President Trump. But prison camp you call it. But you don't, you don't need everybody to come forward to put together a prosecution. I mean, they can still rely on anonymity. This is something that has been done for years and you can just remove any sort of redact, anything that would in any way reveal the identities of the victims. Sure, not a big deal. And the thing is that, you know, Massey said this and he said they're trying to protect the people who feed the swamp, the people who feed the donors that feed the Washington and machine. And to me, that really struck a chord because I.
- [12:24]
A
That's the element of it that really is bipartisan. Right. The notion that, that rich men got away with it. Right. They got away with flying to that island, they got away with the, with the, everything that went on there. And they got away with it. They flew around, they jetted around, they had parties, they had access to young women and girls and they should be named, it seems to me. I mean, that's something that is just kind of bipartisan. This is one of the great monsters of our time.
- [12:59]
B
It's not class partisan, though, it's bipartisan.
- [13:02]
A
Right, right.
- [13:03]
B
You know what I mean? There is a, there, it's a class thing. I mean, the upper classes of the Democrats and the Republicans, the establishment, are united in the fact that they don't want this out there.
- [13:14]
A
I mean, that's crazy. That is if you aren't a member of that class. And you know, it's a winning political issue, isn't it?
- [13:23]
B
I wouldn't want to be backed in the corner to vote against releasing files like I would if I was. I would not Want to have that vote against me. I. I would not want that vote on my record that I voted against releasing the AB files.
- [13:36]
A
So who's the. The people blocking right now is the President of the United States, speaker of the House. But on the Democratic side, right. I mean, obviously, Bill Clinton was on that plane plenty of times, as were other prominent Democrats. Who's carrying their water?
- [13:54]
B
I mean, who's carrying their water? I think there's. It's kind of a split. I think there's a part of the party that's like, you know what? These are the old guard. This is the way things were. They thought they could get away with it. They take. They've dragged our party down enough. We're at 27% approval rating. You know, get rid of the old warts, right?
- [14:13]
A
Yeah.
- [14:14]
B
But then there's another part of the party that's like, this could also backfire tremendously. Like, you know, here's what people forget. Epstein was a Democrat, and he spent a lot of time with Democrats. He donated to a lot of prominent Democrats. Right. And they were around him. But Epstein. But Trump was also a Democrat then. He was in his circles. You know, he. This was the. This was. And it's not just the Democrats. It's the, you know, elite institutions, the. The Ivy League schools that took the money. And the heads of these institutions, these are the top lawyers, thinkers, heads of banks, heads of financial institutions, heads of companies, foreign dignitaries. I mean, it spans so far and wide.
- [15:02]
A
And so let me ask, given that description, you know, the rationale that people say is you don't want to hurt the innocent. Now, you know, if you were on that island, you know, how innocent really were you? How could you not know? I've heard a story told about the wife of Sergey Brin, who was the head of Google, got invited, bunch of people, dozens of people, for a big party.
- [15:28]
B
And.
- [15:30]
A
His wife said, honey, we're out of here. We gotta leave. Because you could see what the place was about. But, I mean, are there lots of people maybe. You know, obviously, Alan Dershowitz says he has been slandered by being included in all of this. And lots of people will be claiming that. And I guess, what's the answer to that objection on the part of the survivors and the people who do think it is time for justice for all those who enabled this monstrosity?
- [16:00]
B
I mean, listen, they're all going to deny it. You know, if there are allegations that are obviously in these files, like, we know that, because if you look even at Virginia Giuffre's, depositions that have been made public, they're not classified as Pam Bondi claim they were, but in those depositions, she makes allegations about powerful men. And, you know, one of those allegations against Prince Andrew was enough, was, you know, seemed to have enough strength that she got paid out by the throne. And so this is something that. That, yes, you either look the other way and what does that say about your moral character? B, you were named in the files as a witness and. Or a woman was trafficked. You were part of the trafficking operation. Because, like, even look at Jess Stanley, who was the head, I believe, of Case bank until he had to step down, there was an email exchange between him and Epstein talking about what type of girl he wants. You know, do you want Beauty and the Beast this weekend or do you want Snow White? So, like, some of this stuff, it's just. I don't know how you could be friends with this guy. If you ever look on a Lolita Express, by the way, it's called Lolita Express. And if you ever looked on. At the. At the pilots or pictures of them. Not the pilots, I'm sorry, the flight attendants and. And the stuff that they were wearing. Scantily clad. It's just the whole environment. They were almost grooming the elites as well into thinking that this sort of depraved, you know, environment was normal. I think once you stepped into Epstein's world, you were a part of it. For example, when the police, when they raided his home in Palm beach, they. During the first arrest, they found tons of pictures of young girls that he had taken all over the house. Just like framed pictures of young girls all over the house. I mean, in all of the. All of the, like, photos from inside of any of his homes, there was. It just a reeked of weirdness at the very least. You know, I don't know how you could be friends with Jeffrey Epstein and not know that there was.
- [18:06]
A
Yeah, thanks.
- [18:07]
B
About him. And how do you not look at some girl who looks like she's a teenager, whether she's 18, 16, 14, you're not really sure. Teens could be a little. You know, you have. You've got teens. You know, it can be. It can be weird, but at the end of the day, you just have to look at this person and think that's somebody else's kid.
- [18:25]
A
Yeah.
- [18:26]
B
And if you don't, if that's not your instant reflex, you know, I don't. I don't know to. That's on you. And I do think that by Looking the other way. You're enabling.
- [18:37]
A
Yeah.
- [18:38]
B
And I think that actually, that some men are accused of being a part of this ring and that's who they are protecting. And. And that's, you know, that would come out and it could. Listen, I've seen a lot of things that I haven't been able to report on yet, and I do think it could have an impact on our economy, frankly, on our financial institutions, on our leaders, the things that we hold dear right now. It's a Pandora's box. Wow.
- [19:11]
A
And that's what. That's. That's a terrifying thought, right? That there's this. That there's evil lurking at. Just like, frankly, the. The right wing has always said that the deep state, or I'm not calling it the deep state, but certainly the elite, the ruling elite is so thoroughly corrupted that they. You used a great phrase just now, grooming the elite. Right. That there was a way of. Kind that he had of drawing, you know, former colleagues of ours at ABC News, former, you know, very prominent. Prominent people who were drawn into his orbit somehow some way. Dinner at his Manhattan townhouse, you know, a flight on the Lolita Express or.
- [19:56]
B
Whatever, and feel like it was okay. Right. It's like they're making the environment feel like it's okay. It's a. It's a. And I think Glenn Maxwell was critical in that she groomed the girls, she groomed the elites because she was an elite. And she was the daughter of the man who owned the New York Daily News and the man that owned the Daily Mirror. This was. She was no joke. She was like Elizabeth Murdoch. It would be like if Elizabeth Murdoch was. Was. Was doing this, because Murdoch and. And Maxwell at the time were. Were, you know, they were rivals and.
- [20:31]
A
Right.
- [20:31]
B
And that would have been the equivalent. And so the daughter of a press baron, you know, tabloid titans.
- [20:40]
A
Right.
- [20:41]
B
Yeah, he owned. You know, and it wasn't just tabloids. He owned. Peregrine. Sorry. Yeah, I think it was some major publications, news publications which were the. Not news. Academic publications as well. Macmillan, he owned. And he owned another one. But, yeah, he owned. It was incredible her stature and what she used, how she used it.
- [21:09]
A
So that raises a question. I do want to get to the politics of this in just a minute. But given that level of elite involvement, at whatever level, deeply corrupt criminal sexual deviancy to hanging out with deeply corrupt criminal sexual deviants that, as you point out, just looking at the place and looking at what was going on there, you ought to have known it was. You were at the Home of a creep. At the very least, if not more, your alarm bells should have gone off. So how much of this grooming of the elite might have been done for essentially, I don't want to say espionage, but intelligence purposes? There's always been this mysterious kind of suggestion that one of the reasons Epstein was not held accountable wasn't just the money, but the fact that he was valuable to intelligence services in various countries, ours, Israel's, others. Because he groomed the elite, he got them corrupted or in his corruption, in ways that rendered them vulnerable or that he could deliver information and intelligence.
- [22:16]
B
I think that's absolutely the case. I mean, I think he had relationships with various intelligence agencies. Intelligence agencies would never say that. They'd say, oh, we would never share an asset with another person. But at the end of the day, they're all fighting for information. Right. And I think, you know, a lot of people that have these kind of relationships, they're called, you know, Americans aren't allowed, you know, are you. CIA isn't allowed to compel an American to give information. Right. But if you're going to help law enforcement in America, that's certainly going to put you on the good side of the law. We've seen it happen in the past. Whitey Bulger, for example, was an FBI informant, caring, killing people while being an informant. And, you know, it's often like the, the, you know, the don or the mob boss at the end of the movie and you find out he was the informant all along. Right. And this is, this is sort of. This is sort of a belief that I've come to, after, upon doing my reporting, I've come to believe that he's. He informed them in some ways or he was a value. He was a value to the US Intelligence services in some ways. I mean, we even know from a file that's in the documents that he provided the FBI with some information to get his assets returned to him because his assets were seized. It says it in document provide information. He got his assets returned to him. So we don't know what that information is. But a person who is hanging out with Mohammed bin Salman, okay, and, you know, tells people that he spends times with Vladimir Putin and he spends time with Prince Andrew and Adnan Khashoggi. And, you know, and we know now from Galen Maxwell that you knew her father, Robert Maxwell, who was a five from Assad. You know, these are the circles that he is running around in. And add in the fact, Terry, and a lot of people don't know this, but he was a part of a Ponzi scheme back in the late 80s, early 90s, I think it's called Financial Towers. And Stephen Hoffenberg. Yeah, Financial Towers. It was. It was one of the largest Ponzi schemes at the time. $400 million. And Stephen Hoffenberg was convicted. He spent the rest of his life in prison. His partner in that deal was Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein never went to prison because he helped inform the case. He helps the prosecutors on that case. And according to Vicki Ward, who, you know, she's a great journalist, and she went and saw Stephen Hoffenberg, who sued Epstein over this. You know, she. He spoke to the prosecutors at least three times. And there's a belief that if he wasn't the informant, he would have been the one to spend time in prison and not Hoffenberg. So as a guy who understood how to play both sides of the law, and I think that's another part of this, too, you. Is how it will expose the deep corruption of the deep state.
- [25:11]
A
Yeah, that's. I mean, that reminds me, I did a story years ago, and it's a telltale sign when somebody gets a really light sentence when they're up against something very serious. It either means they got money or information or both. I did a story at the time. It was the biggest drug money laundering arrest and prosecution in U.S. history. And it was a Colombian. His name was Fernando Beerbrugger. And. And I got a tip from somebody that something's going wrong in this case. He didn't spend a day in prison. It was a closed sentencing hearing, and he walked out. And it was because apparently he was feeding intelligence on. On some of the narco traffickers, but also more importantly for the US and the CIA, you know, that the uprising, the rebels in Colombia. Right. And in other places. And I remember tracking down the federal prosecutor who did the case, and I called him up and he said, I can't say a word about it, except it was the worst day of my life. He was one of the top guys. Hundreds of millions of dollars he was laundering for the. For the Colombian drug cartel. We had him and he walked out.
- [26:22]
B
I mean, this has been. This has been the case with some of the prosecutors that worked on the Epstein story as well. You know, Maria Vilfagna, who was dealing with the case underneath. Alex Acosta, she was a deputy and, you know, she wrote up a beautiful, you know, case. 60 charges she recommended of sex trafficking went down to zero, and it was kicked back to the state with two charges of trafficking. A Minor for prostitution. And so, you know, she had mapped it all out. She had spent years talking to victims and witnesses, and it was. It was really impressive. And, you know, I spoke to even some of her colleagues because she hasn't been willing to do an on the record interview, but they even said, like, you could sense the. That she felt that deep injustice, that she really, really worked hard on this case. And it broke up. It broke a piece of her to see it go away. And the way it was handled. I mean, Acosta was meeting with his defense team off campus. That never happens when you're the U.S. attorney.
- [27:26]
A
Didn't he want a job or something? I mean, it wasn't there, that allegation.
- [27:29]
B
At some point, Ken Starr and Dershowitz. Sorry, Dershowitz. Was dealing with the state attorney. It was Ken Starr and Jay Leskowitz. And so obviously, they're huge Republican icons, and he was a Republican. And you know, who else was dealing with it all the way up at the. At the top of the Justice Department, it was kicked all the way to the attorney general.
- [27:50]
A
Wow.
- [27:50]
B
And during the Bush administration, Marjorie Taylor Greene brought that up, too. She was like, this is the administration before that and the administration before that and the administration before that and the administration. And it's like, actually, it's a strong reminder that this has been going on for so long and it is corrupt.
- [28:08]
A
But go back to Marjorie Taylor Greene for a minute. You said that you were really impressed with her. What's her angle here? What's her goal?
- [28:19]
B
You know, it's just like, she finally made sense to me for a second. Like, I think some of the things we said were. Are offensive and horrible. I mean, and crazy. And there are Jewish space lasers, which is obviously offensive. And she said about Indian Americans, and it was just like, who? Listen, it's off. Sometimes she just doesn't even make any sense. I'm like, should this woman be in Congress or in a mental health facility? I don't know. And. But then, you know, she seemed very lucid and very clear when she was talking about these women and how it was just such a basic human right and how, you know, it was just, this is about humanity. This is just about doing the right thing. This isn't. This shouldn't be a tough call. And I thought to myself, wow, that's all it is. I mean, she speaks very plainly.
- [29:17]
A
Yes, she does.
- [29:18]
B
Spoke with conviction, and that's really what needed to be said. And I thought everyone was really eloquent. They really were. The survivors just said to President Trump, they spoke directly to him, saying, you have so much power in this and we need you to use it. Now, I thought even the way that Ro Khanna started with there is something rotten in Washington, which obviously would go back to Shakespeare, but it's. There is something rotten and it's hard to shake it. I mean, people have said to me, Tara, you know, just let it go, let it go. This is like you're becoming obsessive with this story or move on. But then every time, even if you want to let it go, it's like something else pops up, right? It's you can't you. This. You. You've covered stories like this before. When there's a real earnest effort to cover something up until it is completely exposed, this will keep happening.
- [30:12]
A
And do you think that's. Do you think that that is a political fact in Washington now? Or are Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie then Republicans like that Nancy Mace? Are they really now been pushed aside by the mainstream of the Republican Party, by the leadership, by Trump, who doesn't want this around? Or is this still a political problem, significant for the party and for the president? Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5 only at McDonald's for a limited time. Prices and participation may vary.
- [30:58]
B
Um, it's a good question. I mean, I, I haven't. I'm not sure what the polling says per se, but my gut says that it can't be a good thing. And it's interesting, Terry, because, like, for so long, you would think that the MAGA influencers who have been pushing the story would be there right at this big moment, right? This was a really big moment. And even just to feel it, like I wasn't there. I was there as a reporter, not only to take notes and, and see it, but to feel it. And you would think they'd want to feel it, right? As one person said, this is the true draining of the swamp. I think Thomas Massey said that if you can do this, you're truly draining the swamp. And none of the people that have been talking about draining the swamp were there.
- [31:50]
A
So who are you talking about?
- [31:52]
B
Call them out like the Matt Gates's of the world and the Don Bond Dan Bonginos and the Cash Patels and the Pam Bondies and the Donald Trump who created that phrase and all the people who have talked about this, the, you know, the cabal of elites for so Long. It's like, well, where are you guys? It's like, this is the moment. This is. This is what you've been asking for. Release the files. Nobody wants to talk about it anymore.
- [32:21]
A
Is that because in part, the Democrats have taken it up with enthusiasm, like Ro Khanna, you said he's running, he's going to run for president. That's been obvious for a while, maybe since he was a child. And I mean, he's clearly very ambitious man, very capable man. But does his. Do his political goals into the Democrats political goals? Kind of. Is this now going to fall into the usual binary world that we live in in American politics? Well, if he likes it, I hate it.
- [32:54]
B
Yeah, I don't know. I wonder. Actually, I do wonder about that. Sometimes I talk to my producer about it because he's MAGA and like, what's your world think about this? Like, are they still angry about Epstein? And he seems to think they still are. It's just maybe the fervor isn't as high. You know, I think it probably. It's hard to see Democratic politicians kind of seizing on it. And I, I've even said to people that I know who are kind of asking me, well, let's go. You know, who, who tell me this, tell me that in a way that's about the politics, the political angle. And yeah, guys, this is a crime scene. Like, everyone's forgotten that in this whole. In the way that it's been bandied about by political consultants. Like, you know, this is some sort of cudgel they can use. I'm like, this. What, what we should be reminded of is that this was a heinous crime, a huge, A huge criminal, you know, sprawling criminal complex of, Of. Of. Of. I mean, a vast, vast sex trafficking network. Yeah, because that. There were a thousand victims, Terry.
- [34:06]
A
I know when the FBI put that out, I thought of that.
- [34:09]
B
That's just, that's insane. And it's like if this was. I mean, I know people say this happens in third worlds, but we are not a third world country. This is not the way, and it shouldn't happen in third worlds either, but this is just. It's just insane. And I just think at some point people have to think to themselves, like, this is just not right. You know, this is not right. I hope it unifies people, the party, whoever. I don't know. I'm not rooting for either one, but I hope that the people who have the power now do the right thing.
- [34:43]
A
And get the files released. And although that now seems a Long shot. Given that the speaker of the House and the President of the United States, who control the agenda right now, are both dead set against it, is Johnson paying a price at all for essentially saying no more, no more talk of Epstein?
- [35:01]
B
I don't know, because, I mean, when I talk to survivors, they're like, this is incredibly patronizing. Actually, you know what, Eric, my producer is coming through with some, Some. Some insight from the MAGA world. He's saying it's dampening support for Trump amongst new MAGA libertarians, the politically homeless, former Democrats, former Bernie Bros. You know, it should be harming Trump more, but Democrats have lost a percentage point during this time because it's not political and there is bipartisan disappointment.
- [35:33]
A
Yeah.
- [35:34]
B
So that's wise.
- [35:35]
A
He's good.
- [35:36]
B
Yeah. Yeah, he is good. But I'm sorry, the question you had about the survivors and how they feel about Mike Johnson is.
- [35:44]
A
Well, yeah, and, And. And is he. How do they move them?
- [35:48]
B
I mean, I think it's. I just don't think they want to go there. I think all of these. My gut says that all of these members just don't want to go there, because wherever they go, it's going to go up against an industry where they get money. It's the swamp. I mean, it really is.
- [36:08]
A
It really is. It really is.
- [36:10]
B
Yeah. You're like, you want to tell, like, if they go after. If they release the names, it's not even just a swamp. They're destroying their own institutions. They're destroying the. The institutions that have built this country in a lot of ways. The intelligence institutions you're proposing them and, and their shortcomings. And it would. It would take so much rebuilding of trust. And I do think, like, the hard thing, too, about all of this for the survivors is that they see these people who are celebrated continue to be celebrated, knowing that they were a part of this. And that's a, That's a real type of wounding. And then you have more people who are celebrated covering for them and telling them, move on, move on, move on. And I just. It's a. We're going through a reckoning right now of the Me Too movement and what it takes to be believed. Do our women still believe? Does it. Does what they say really matter? Um, I was impressed to see so many women out there and others supporting these women. Like, okay, maybe there is still something in the air. Like, maybe these. Maybe there is a feeling that women can be believed. But, yeah, it's Sigrid McAuley, who is. Who is a powerhouse attorney for the, the victims. She's from the Schiller and Boys Flexner firm. You know, that one's. They went after Harvey Weinstein and they have represented the Epstein victims. And you know, she said, she told them in this private meeting with the speaker and the survivors, she said, there are going to be names that, that are going to come out in these Department of Justice files. You know, what are you going to do about that? What are you going to do with that? And they said, we're going to make sure we're going to try to deliver the justice that these women deserve. Right. You know, I mean.
- [38:05]
A
That'S. So where does it go? I'm. Where, where I, I'm, I'm pessimistic that we're going to see those files.
- [38:14]
B
I know, I know, Terry. I think where does it go is a really good question. I mean, I wish I knew. I was just my friend, our friend, you know, Julie Mason of Sirius xm.
- [38:26]
A
Sure.
- [38:26]
B
Great. We were just saying that this has almost become a scandal of the Republicans making in a lot, in a big way. And I don't know how this, I don't know how they back themselves out of this. It also depends on the will of the Democrats and if they can get it together too, to get it out, if they even want it out. I think, I think Virginia two phrase memoir will be another major news event. I think people are, you know, maybe it will shake loose some truth. Maybe journalists like you and I are going to be the ones to be, be able to advance the story and that will bring more sunlight. Maybe there'll be whistleblowers. I don't know if we can't get it from the government. But I will tell you that when I spoke to the victims today, one of the most chilling things was talking about the lawfare with them and how much they fear saying the names of these men, these powerful men, which I feel the same way as a journalist like. I don't. I'm afraid too, there, there's. If there is a sense of lawfare in the air, which I felt back in 2019 when I was working on this story, but it's even worse now when you have the President of the United States suing the Wall street Journal for $100 billion for publishing a birthday card that he gave to EPSTEIN for the 50th birthday, there is a chill. And that is why they're saying, well, tell us the names, tell us the names. And it's like these women are saying, I'm going to be served A defamation suit right away. I'm going to spend the rest of my days in court. Bankruptcy. This, that we've seen what happened to Virginia Giuffre, I really believe, having known her, that that battle that she was up against with Alan Derstowitz, that that was one of the hardest things she had to deal with. I mean, we were spending a lot of time together, traveling with. I was reporting alongside of her, and I just saw the impact of that and what it does to a person to fight to be believed. It's just really hard. So that is what is holding them back. And that's why they say if the government releases it, then we are safe.
- [40:44]
A
Right.
- [40:44]
B
But if we do it, then they will come for us. And they were saying what it's like to be followed, to have private investigators chase them, to get scary phone calls, to live in a way where they are afraid to say what they know.
- [40:58]
A
So these are people who are. Who are being essentially harassed, one assumes, at the behest of the men they might name.
- [41:05]
B
Yes, exactly. Wow. Exactly. Exactly.
- [41:10]
A
Well, Tara, I know you are on it. There's a busy day for you. Really appreciate you coming down and talking. And more important than that, the way that I imagine that some. This will be my last question for you. Some personal cost to you. You maintain this commitment to the story and to these women. And I know, having done stories that mattered a lot, that were hard to tell, that can take it out of you.
- [41:42]
B
Yeah. Thank you for saying that. And I know, I know that you've been on the other side of that as well. It's hard to do our jobs. In some ways, we're a little bit like rescue emergency workers, but I don't know. I, I think to myself, like, I, I, I. It can be draining. I took off last week, and it was really good for me. I feel like I'm very much rejuvenated, and I feel good. I feel. I feel like I've got my spirit back. But, yeah, it can be really draining on our spirits, especially when the crimes are so dark and especially when committed against people who are vulnerable and there's a lot of darkness. But I hope that I can be useful in this world. And, you know, if this is my. If this is a way for me to be useful, then I feel lucky that I can tell their stories because it's truly about them. Um, and if I am just. And it's actually Terry, to be honest, it's helped me find my own voice. They have. Because I, in some ways, like, as a journalist, you know, we do really. We. We walk the line, right? We. We have to be critical. We have to be, like, unbiased. We have to be. But I. I feel like in some ways, it's. They've helped me find that North Star again without having the bias. You know what I mean? Remembering that the North Star is just about humanity and it's not about, you know, Trump or, you know, Democrats, Republicans or, you know, because when you. When you're in that political space, you sometimes get lost in that noise. But you remember, like, the North Star is about the people. That. That is who we are reporting for. That is what it's about. And not the political games, not all of that. So I'm thankful to them for that.
- [43:40]
A
That's amazing. That's amazing. What a commitment, what a job you're doing. I know you're going to be on it as we go forward. And, Tara, thank you so much on this day. I'm so glad you were there to report on it there, too.
- [43:56]
B
We should do this again. I love it.
- [43:58]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [44:00]
B
When you're on the road. And I'll. I'll be on the other side of that. All right, good deal. Okay, thank you.
- [44:06]
A
All right, thanks, Tara. And thanks, everybody.
- [44:09]
B
Bye.
- [44:10]
A
Bye.
- [44:11]
B
I want to thank my producer, Eric Abenate, Adam Stewart, who handles my thumbnails, and Abby Baker on my social media. If you want to support my independent journalism and get my scoop straight to your inbox, please sign up for the red letter. You can do that by going to Tara Palmeri dot com. That's T A R A P A L M E R I dot com. You can obviously share this with your friends. Like, subscribe, leave a written review. I'm not backing down. I'm back from my vacation. I feel so much stronger. Thank you to all of you who have sent me notes. Just turned 38 and it's gonna be 30. Great. And I really feel positive about what I am able to accomplish with this community, what we can all do. And I appreciate all the tips and everything you've sent to me. And of course, I'll be in D.C. on Wednesday. So check out my social media. I'll be on. I'll be on msnbc. I'll be on Nicole Wallace's show. I'll be doing a live on Substack with Terry Moran. You can go to Substack. I'm on there at Tara Palmeri. And I'll be live from the Capitol. So check out all of my social media, check out my podcasts, everything. I will be there. Twitter X, whatever they're calling it now. I'll be back again soon.