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- [00:01]
A
A mochi moment from Sadie, who writes, I'm not crying. You're crying. This is what I said during my first appointment with my physician at Mochi, because I didn't have to convince him I needed a GLP one. He understood and I felt supported, not judged. I came for the weight loss and stayed for the empathy. Thanks, Sadie. I'm Mayra Amit, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com.
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B
Sadie is a Mochi member, compensated for her story.
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C
Tara Palmeri. Tara, thanks so much for being here.
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B
Evan, thank you so much. What a pleasure to be here. And you're right, it is difficult for so many of these White House correspondents. I feel like they are just being battered around every single day by president. And it's, it's really unfortunate, but I am also so impressed with their professionalism and the way that they have just, you know, taken it on the chin and just kept going. But that, and I think, you know, in this sort of crisis where a lot of people question, you know, mainstream media, its value, whether it's being led by corporate forces that have, you know, interests like mergers and acquisitions over the news, it's the people on the front lines that can be inspiring, I think, sometimes in these moments, because they seem to really still be pursuing what I see as, you know, higher truth.
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C
So, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you started your career kind of more in that mainstream area arena. You started, I believe, with the Washington examiner and worked with, you know, covering things, everything from the news and writing weekly columns to you covered some more tabloid things throughout your career as well. What was the original motivation that made you want to become a reporter and a journalist?
- [01:55]
B
Yeah, thanks for asking. So I. My first job was actually at CNN as a production assistant, and I was, like, fetching coffees and getting scripts and, you know, for some of, like, the biggest names out there now, like Don Lemon and Jim Acosta. And I was, you know, fresh out of college. I actually graduated early to do that. And, you know, it was a really tough time. It was 2008, and we were in the middle of financial crisis. So I was told, you know, you only have a year to have this job. It's freelance job, hourly, no benefits. And then I would network with a lot of the people, the editors that came through the green room. And that's how I met the editor of the Washington Examiner. And I said, listen, like, I'd be happy to freelance for you to write. I had always been inspired, since I was a young person by the Muckrakers at the turn of the 20th century and, and how they were able to use, yeah, you could say tabloid yellow journalism. Everyone forgets that Joseph Pulitzer, who, you know, is the name behind the Pulitzer Prize, he used yellow journalism to cause real change. The Jungle by Upton Sinclair was, you know, a fictional book, but it was, it really changed the meatpacking industry because he went undercover to see exactly what was happening in the meatpacking industry in Chicago. Nellie Bly was another muckraker during this period of time who went undercover in the asylum to show that mental institutions were completely in disrepair and people were being treated terribly. You know, there we had health code. We didn't have health codes really in factories, which explains why there was the Triangle building that burned down in New York. But it was, you know, journalists that went undercover and really tried to expose some of the worst of the robber barons and really what we would call now like the oligarchs and to really speak up for the little man, like the immigrants, the people living in the tenements and I mean, those are my people. At least that's how I, that's how my family came to America. So I felt a kindred spirit for them. I saw the power of the pen. And I always believe that, you know, even when I worked at the New York Post, it was, we. There would be like a little dinkus when you had a story and the follow up story was about how what you reported led to change, led to a law to be changed and it would say, post gets action. And to me that was really rewarding was to be able to use investigative journalism to expose injustice and to expose, you know, corruption and problems. So it sounds scrappy, you know, I'm a Jersey girl, but this is, I wasn't really, you know, what led me to journalism wasn't flowery writing or, you know, just, yeah, sort of profiles which I enjoy doing now at this point in my career because I, you know, I have those skills and I'm, I understand people more and I think I'm. But when I started I was just like, I wanna, I wanna kick up dirt and find out and find corruption and, and expose it. Like almost like it could have probably been a prosecutor if I wasn't a journalist.
- [05:05]
C
Yeah, I hear you and that's awesome. I think that you made a really good point. I think that with those muckrakers and everything in the yellow journalism there was kind of that ability to use scandal like to get the headlines and to get, grab people's attention and Then to draw them in towards like kind of the real story. Do you feel like that?
- [05:23]
B
Oh, yeah. I mean, we would have little like signs around the New York Post that like, news doesn't have to be boring to be news. You know, there's a culture there. I mean, I used to joke that it was a pirate ship. There were a lot of things wrong with it. I didn't always agree with the takes. You know, it has a right word bent. And, you know, I didn't always agree with their political leanings or their political pages, but I felt like at their heart they were a populist paper. They were people for. It was a paper that was read by, you know, the middle class working class in Staten island, but also Manhattan that liked the page six pages, you know what I mean, that like to read about their friends. So it had that sensibility and sometimes it's like you can't take yourself a little too seriously. And, you know, Headless. What was it? Headless man at topless bar. We used to have so much fun with headlines. But of course the editors would always say, you know, they actually had headline writers in a separate place from us as writers, and we weren't even really allowed to suggest headlines. Actually, if you suggested a headline, you are more likely not to have it featured because they were the creatives. I mean, they were the geniuses behind it all. But yeah, it was, it was a really good experience. I feel like a lot of journalists during the years when I grew up, I'm in the, in the business. You know, that was when blogging was really a thing and people would take a story and they would sort of break down the story and write it about, you know, a rewrite with their own spin or twist or style or snark or this or that. But I learned like, go door, knock, you know, go ask for the. Go get the quote, go break the story, go find out the scoop, go dig, go investigate. Like, I learned, like kind of, you know, real investigative journalism, get leads, break stories, not just write about other people's stories. And, and that to me has driven me to get the scoop, to try to break through. And, you know, everybody has different talents and some people are amazing at, right, Beautiful analysis, brilliant opinion pieces, great flowery language, beautiful profiles. But I was always sort of driven to the investigative journalism. So.
- [07:37]
C
And that's something that I appreciate about you, is that with like what you said about getting to the story and you worked at the New York Post and it was a little bit more right leaning than you said like your politics and things like that. And I think that a lot of reporters in these days and age, in this day and age, like with the polarization of the both sidesism and everything, especially women reporters, they get a lot of flack for who they talk to and everything. And I think that you get to the heart of the story and you're willing and ready to talk to everybody. You've talked to George Santosale, you talk to Michael Cohen and you feel the heat of it afterwards, I'm sure from people with one opinion or the other. Do you feel like since you've gone independent, do you feel that you have more freedom to talk to more people? Like you're not as like centered towards one story or another, one aspect or angle of the story. Do you try to talk to a wide variety of people to get to what the heart of it is? You know?
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B
Yeah, I think like I hope that when you, what you get from my journalism is that I really don't, I don't have a political agenda. Yeah, my agenda is the truth. And if truth is against your political agenda, then I'm sorry, you know.
- [09:01]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [09:02]
B
That is my agenda is getting down to the bottom of it. And yeah, I can grill people and some people might say, oh you shouldn't platform George Santos. And to me I'm like George Santos is an avatar of our moment, of this post truth moment. And like to me I wanted to know like how did you get this pardon? Like do you think that it's all about loyalty? Did you love Trump enough? I mean what are you sorry? And some people are like I don't even want to hear from him. And it's like okay fine, you know, you don't want to hear from him. You don't have to. Kat Abu Ghazali I don't agree with the fact that she got prosecuted and got a felony, but I had to ask her, what do you think about it? What were you feeling like? You know, just basic what, when, where, why questions. And in the case of Michael Cohen and that was a bit of more of an antagonistic interview as well. I mean not all of my interviews are antagonistic but I, I go where the story leads. And when he said oh yeah, there was one Epstein situation we had to deal with, I was like, wait, what, tell me what happened. We have never heard this before know especially about a story that the president is so close lipped about and he was working for him as his fixer during the time when Katie Johnson c case was was going to be I guess at that time she was going to. She was. She filed in three state, three times her lawsuit. So it's unclear what she was planning to do with that. But still, I felt that, you know, I, I went where it was supposed to go. You know, it's. You always are going to take risks in this media age. Everybody has, you know, everybody has an opinion. I don't, I don't believe in not platforming people, but I think if you platform them and they have an agenda and they have an opinion, you need to grill them. Like, if you give them the platform, there has to be a purpose for it that isn't just to let them spread lies or to, you know, so it's like, would I have Nick Fuentes on my show maybe if I could have the ability to like, really grill him and understand, like, where does a man with the last name Fuentes become a white supremacist? You know what I mean? Not.
- [11:15]
C
You're not going to do the Tucker.
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B
Carlson thing, his white supremacy, or elevate his claims. So, you know, it's interesting because like, before social media, before we had, before we all had our own platforms, people like Barbara Walters had the chance to interview, you know, 100 most interesting people or whatever she would do. And, you know, some of them were criminals, some of them were serial killers. She interviewed Donald Trump and she pointed out, like, you are not rich, you are bankrupt. And she laid it all out there methodically. And sure, she had the support of a ton of producers that prepped her and people in her ear and she was a killer. Don't not taking it away from her. Nobody ever said, how dare you platform him? Barbara Walters.
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C
No, exactly.
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B
They wanted to hear from these evil people because they wanted to, not necessarily saying Trump as the evil person, but they wanted to hear from these people and they trusted her to go there and ask the tough questions. But now it's like, no, you're platforming them. I can't even listen to you. Even if they did listen, they might hear that. Yeah, no, actually, I'm asking them really hard questions.
- [12:20]
C
Yeah, exactly. And there are these little, like kind of safe spot, safe pockets and safe spaces for people where they're going to get the information that they want and everything. And yeah, you know, you have done everything with corporate media. You've done worked in all kinds of different places. What was it that made you. Was it a jump or was it like just a natural progression to go out on your own and do sort of the independent thing?
- [12:45]
D
Dsw, Designer shoe, warehouse is the one stop. Shop for all your footwear needs with sneakers, boots, and everything in between for every style, mood and occasion. You'll definitely find shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. DSW has what you need, but more importantly, they have what you didn't even know you wanted. You never know what you'll find at dsw. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at dsw stores or dsw.com Honestly, I saw people.
- [13:17]
B
Like you, Evan, and seeing your success and seeing others on substack and YouTube and I had sort of been slow walking my way into this once I left Politico and I was at Puck. Puck was new media. You know, it's a newsletter. It's not that far off in Substack. Then I had a show on the Ringer, so an election show. It was a podcast, but it wasn't on YouTube. And so I was like, in this age, I need to be on YouTube. I mean, everybody's on YouTube. And I felt like substack, I'm seeing such brilliant journalists on Substack and commentators and really great content. And I was like, well, why not just, why not just go there? So, you know, in a way, I just felt like it was a natural evolution for me to keep going in a more independent route. And, you know, now this is all mine and there's no editor. So if anyone's mad at me for what I do, it's because I did it. You know, it's like, it's my own, this is my operation. There's no one saying, like, yeah, I don't like that story, or, you know, enough of the Epstein or we don't like, you know, this or that, I make the decision. And I think that's really gratifying. I'm sure you feel that way as well. And it kind of creates a real closeness with your audience because you hear from them too, what they want to know more about. You're your own editor in chief and so that's a really exciting thing and it can only grow from here. And I hope you know that I'll bring on more people who are like minded, independent investigative journalists.
- [14:44]
C
That's so awesome. And you know, you've had a lot of strong women on your show as well, and Sally Quinn was one of them. And I'm not an expert or anything, so you're gonna have to fill me in. But it seems like you were a pretty big fan of hers. And from what I've read, it kind of seems like she was Somebody who wasn't just, like, reporting on Washington, D.C. and everything, but she kind of held all the info and the gossip for the town. And, you know, she seemed like a woman that everybody trusted with information and secrets. Is that someone that you admire and do you see yourself becoming that kind of figure eventually?
- [15:19]
B
No. I mean, I think I just. Sally is a. She's, like, from another era. You know what I mean? She was the great Hostess of Washington, D.C. she is a columnist for a newspaper, the Washington Post, writes about religion. But, yes, she likes to convene people for her salons, and she likes to feel, you know, she wants to be in the mix. She wants to know everyone. And she kind of is socialite, you could say. I don't consider myself to be a socialite by any means. I don't have salon dinners. I don't convene, you know, policymakers. I'm not. I'm not someone that you have to shake a hand to get into the next layer of the inner circle. I do like information like she does. I mean, we all. I think if you're in this game, you want to know the scoop. You want to know what's going on. I think I admire how she's been such a connector and how she's, you know, in a. These are women who have come before me, and they did it in their own way, in the way that they could for their time. I mean, she worked at the Washington Post as a secretary, worked her way up, and to be an opinion columnist, I mean, that's. That's what's a big deal, you know, And I think for those kind of. Those figures, it's always good to kind of recognize them for who they are while also acknowledging that we're from a different era. I'm not gonna. You know, who knows if there will be. There will actually be print newspapers by the time I'm her age, you know, and, yeah, I thought she. She's interesting, and she has a book coming out, and she always has so much stuff to say, you know, like, she just has gift of gab. So it was. It was interesting to have her on. And I think people take her seriously because of the fact that she could bring together, you know, the vice president with, you know, the speaker of the House at her. At her home. And she was married to Ben Bradley, who was the executive editor at the Washington Post during Watergate. And, you know, she. She really is someone that if you want to become a player, you have to have a dinner at her house for what it's worth. I've never had dinner at her house.
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C
But I was invited once.
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B
I couldn't make it.
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C
But you're still kind of making it in your own way, you know what I mean? You're kind of taking that recipe of like bringing everybody together and you do it like digitally and, you know, it's really cool to see. And I think especially right now where there's this large scale attack on women, especially with Trump, I think it's more, it has a lot more to do with how his health is failing and stuff, and he's feeling a lot more pressure personally, and he's going back towards instincts, which includes lashing out at women. And women are usually at the forefront of asking and asking him these hard questions. What do you think? What do you think it is or what inspires you to be so bold and fearless and asking the questions and like, just not giving a damn? You know what I mean? It's all, it seems like it's always women that are willing to go the extra mile and just bluntly ask him the question. What do you think it is that like, creates that? Is it just the strength, the pure strength of women?
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B
I think we have to prove ourselves that we're tough enough to be in the crowd. You know, this was a man's world for so long, especially in, in media. I mean, right now, obviously, you can see from the press pool that it's largely dominated by women. But it's, you know, we're just, we're trying to show like we belong here too. Like, we can ask the tough questions. We're not soft, we're not docile, we're not, we're not afraid. And that's not, I don't want to talk about gender roles, but that's sort of how women have been. You know, that's, that's how we've been expected to be for a very long time. So I think for female journalists, we just say it and ask it and do it because that's, that's, it's our way of proving we deserve to be there. And we can ask that, I think, for, I think when we ask a question, you have to remember you're not asking it for yourself, you're asking it for everyone watching, for everyone listening. That doesn't get to be in the room and have that access that you have. So that's what you have to always remember. And you only get those. And you're so privileged to have that chance to do that. And you don't want to give up that Chance that. That right to be able to do it. So I think that's a big part of it. I was really impressed by Mary Bruce. She's a former colleague from ABC News. Trump was like, tearing into her, and she's just such a consummate pro. She didn't flinch.
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C
Was he the one that. Was she the one at Mar A Lago that he called her stupid or something like that when she asked the question?
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B
Yeah, he just. He. He. Caitlin takes it. They all do. I mean, I don't like when he attacks people for the way they look, their. Their intelligence. He does seem to go after women a lot more. But I do think there's probably a part of him that's also thinking, because think about when he grew up, like, why are all these women. Why am I surrounded by all these women asking me what I'm doing? This is not the way the power structure was supposed to be.
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C
And I think it's laziness on the part of men, too. I mean, part of the reason I was stupid enough to believe that I can do all this and everything and try to get my thoughts out is I think the media has been infected by a lot of lazy men that want access and they want to be in the room, but they don't understand the responsibility like women do to ask the question. And you're asking it on behalf of other people. And I think that there's a laziness in the media on behalf of men. I'm. I'm just saying this, that I've recognized it, that they don't say anything. When he says stupid stuff like Quiet, Piggy and he. They don't speak up. And I think that they're getting left behind. And, you know, so I just figured. I was just dumb enough to figure, why not you? Why not step up and try to ask the truth and speak up for women that are doing the right thing and try to elevate other men. You know what I mean? Because I think that the media has been infected with just this laziness of thinking. We see it with the bro sphere and everything. And I just. I respect a lot of the women that are doing it right now. You know, you see Jennifer Welch and everything, and it seems like you guys are always ready and willing to call out the bullshit, to ask the tough questions. And especially with you with the Epstein files and you're reporting and advocacy on behalf of the victims and survivors.
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B
How.
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C
Do you balance seeking truth from powerful people and giving voice to. And giving voice and dignity to the survivors at the same time. Like, how is it to balance those two things?
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B
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C
No, you're okay. No worries at all. You are in the middle of very busy, stressful life stuff, so I completely understand.
- [24:02]
B
Yeah, I'm in the middle of the move, so I just got some word that my car is going to be picked up soon, but in an hour. So we have good time. Sorry about the phone call. This is live, so, yeah, I'm, I feel incredibly privileged that again, that, that I was able to hear these stories. I felt a bond with Virginia and the other survivors. There are women who are close to my age. I know what their lives were like when they were first trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein. We were listening to the same music we were, you know, and I've seen how their lives have become derailed and broken from all of it and the struggle that they have, the trauma. I've sit, sit, sat across from them at dinners and some of them came out for the first time in the past year, which I'm so proud of, and stood on Capitol Hill and spoke out. But For a long time they didn't want their faces out there. And I understand. I mean there's so much shame wrapped up in these sex crimes and they so badly want to tell even more, but they're afraid and I don't blame them. And they've already put so much out on the line. So, you know, all I can do is be there for them. And I've always been really drawn to stories about sex crimes against women and men. You know, it's not just women that, but really there are power imbalance stories. It's the same type of story that we talk about with politics. Like I've always been drawn to power and how it can be corrupted and this is an example of it. And against children is like one of the worst crimes that can ever happen. You know, that can happen. And you know, of course, like there are still sources, so I have to triple check them with, with Virginia, we'd never used her as a single source in the broken Jeffrey Epstein podcast. We always double sourced her. You know, at the end of the day, like I, credibility is everything. We have to, you know, make sure that everything stands up. The allegations are really, really severe. And at the same time they, these powerful people have been protected because of their money. And you can even see from the stories that are coming out now from the, the files that are starting to dribble out that, that they called these girls prostitutes 14 year olds. I mean they did it. That he was his, he was sentenced with procuring a minor for prostitution. You're starting to see how they really went out of their way. Alan Dershowitz, the lawyer for, for Jeffrey Epstein to go through these girls MySpace pages and show that they were drinking at a party at 14 or out with their friends. They said, what do you think the word blaze means? And it's like they're 14 years old. Who cares?
- [26:49]
C
Yeah, we were kids right around they.
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B
Were living, you know, in, in chase. Like they were living in an, you know, they were living like nuns or they were being teenage girls. They did not belong in the home of a 50 something year old man. I'm sorry, there's some, there's something wrong with this. I don't care who these girls are. And, and to try to use that against them I find to be so despicable. And yeah, I, I just, I, I feel really lucky that they would share their stories with me. So.
- [27:21]
C
Yeah, yeah, of course. And I think it's a story that everybody can kind of see a part of themselves in. Like you said, you were right around the same age. I believe that we're around the same age. I graduated high school in 2006. So all those girls were, you know, people that could have been at the same parties as us and everything. We were just normal kids and had the expectation of anonymity. I mean, social media wasn't what it is today back then. No, you just had MySpace and you had your top eight and everything.
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B
It shouldn't be used as a reason to not protect these girls. Exactly. Literally. The.
- [27:57]
C
The.
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B
The deputy prosecutor in the state case said there are no victims here because These girls had MySpace pages that insinuated that they were making out with boys and drinking and maybe smoking pot. Like, doesn't matter what they're supposed to be doing children. Yeah, it was, you know, the law is the law. It doesn't matter if you're, you know.
- [28:22]
C
The president or a billionaire or whoever. Yeah.
- [28:25]
B
The truth is that these girls, they came from the wrong side of the track on or the wrong side of the intercoastal. He was in Palm beach, wealthy Palm beach, man. And these were girls that were in a high school where he created a pyramid scheme recruiting them, getting them to bring friends of friends with for 200. I mean, and for them, 200 was probably more than their father made in a week. And so it was just. It was really horrible how he preyed on the vulnerabilities of these girls. So many of them. The FBI estimates as many as thousand girls and we've only heard three dozen. And if you notice, a lot of them were older. The recruiter, a lot of ones looking for because they were able to process it. But the really young ones, they had a really hard time with it still.
- [29:08]
C
Yeah, definitely. And it just, it goes back to show the strength of women in media because I believe, forgive me if I get her name wrong, but it was Julie K. Brown was the one that broke the story, like in Palm beach originally with the fc.
- [29:23]
B
She went through. I mean, what. What Julie did was amazing. She basically went through all of the court files and really fully reported out this sweetheart deal and the injustice. Her series was called Perversion of Justice, and she did this for the Miami Herald and she interviewed the survivors, crucially on video with her videographer, who really deserves a lot of credit as well. Julie and I worked on Broken Jeffrey Epstein together. She was the executive producer of the podcast. But yeah, she did a lot of the legwork looking through thousands and thousands of files and putting together a story that showed a perversion of justice from the state level. To the U.S. attorney's office and how he just got a slap on the wrist. 13 months in a county jail with work release, ankle bracelet, and able to actually continue abusing girls while on work release. So, you know, without Julie, I don't think anyone would understand how much Alex Acosta did such a grave injustice. It's incredible.
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C
Yeah, she definitely did great work with it. And, I mean, I do a couple newsletters for Lincoln Square, and I know that she just recently did a discussion with Rick Wilson about the whole thing. But we've also got to give credit to you, too, because I think that you are the reason that so many of these women feel comfortable telling these stories, because of the work that you did with. With Virginia Giuffre and to go around the country with her and to take one woman and to knock on doors and to be there for her and to just show up for her. You know what I mean? And want to tell her story. I think that you are a central part of why we're seeing this level of transparency with the Epstein story and with, you know, people feeling com. Women feeling comfortable enough to come forward, because that's a big thing. Because, like you said. I don't mean to ramble here, but like you said, you know, they were 14 when this happened. And I've gone through therapy and stuff for trauma with the army and everything. And one of the things that I learned is, is that if you're at that age, you know, your brain doesn't fully develop until you're 25. When you're at that age and you're from one of those broken homes, and you don't have an adult parent that intervenes and teaches you, like, hey, this is wrong. This is not supposed to happen. These are not normal relationships. They're never able to fully process anything in their life any way successfully going forward unless they have, like, intensive therapy. So Virginia's entire life was probably just her trying to survive. Not only Epstein, but her trying to survive every minute of every day.
- [32:17]
B
And I think it was. It was horrific. I mean, I saw it up close. And the trick and how everything triggered her in terms of, like. Like seeing his plane on the tarmac at the Palm beach airport, going to people's homes, like, it was physically triggering. Like, I saw her body. Like, she literally would get ill. And thank you for saying that. You know, it's interesting because at the time, I was in a weird place myself. Like, just with my career, and I was like, I just left ABC News. I just didn't. It Just didn't feel right to me. Like, and people are like, who leaves a White House correspondent job? But, like, I wasn't able to do the kind of job that I wanted. Like, I was able to do what I wanted to do, which was, like, investigative reporting and breaking news and, like, digging around. I felt like I was just standing in front of the White House reading off headlines that were sort of like, pre written and felt that my biggest part of my job was just sounding good and looking good. And it just didn't feel right for my. For the person. I explained to you who I am. And I left, and everyone's like, who leaves, like, early? This is weird. And I felt the same way. I'm like, am I an idiot? And I'm just, like, hiking around in the desert being like, God, what am I doing with my life? What am I doing here? And I thought, maybe I'll go to another network and they'll give me more, like, leeway and I'll be able to do the kind of reporting I want to do. And it just, like, it didn't happen. Instead, I got a call to do this podcast. And then I spent this time with Virginia, and I confided in her too. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life, but here I am with you. And, like, we're on this journey together and we're gonna try to put together the broken pieces of your life. And, like, we bonded through that and it was just like. And seeing how she reacted to people from her past with just, like, such grace and such, like, gratefulness that these people would just acknowledge her. Even though I thought to myself, like, that they were almost complicit in the crime, that they were enablers. And she just wanted their help so that she could tell her story. She really inspired me. But, yeah, it was a very weird time. And then Covid hit, and I was in my friend's barn for a long time, so I broke my elbow and I needed a place to live with my dog. I couldn't walk. And I was like, nobody. I had no one to help. I'm just reading through all these horrific files, like, the files that Julie put together so we could do this podcast. And I'm just. It's just so heartbreaking and dark. And I was just like, what is the. Like, why am I here doing with my life? And then it didn't. Like, I knew I was. I just kept doing it, feeling that there was a purpose, knowing that there was a purpose, but not understanding what the end goal was the podcast. The podcast came out and it did okay. It wasn't like a huge hit or anything, but it did fine. A lot of people reached out to me though, and they said it meant a lot since that that mattered to me and it mattered to Virginia and the survivors, which is most, you know, important. And of course then they asked me at Sony to do another show on Ghislaine Maxwell and that one was a hit like across the world, top podcasts for weeks. And I was like, okay, fine, this lady, they don't care about the survivors. So how are the. Maxwell's is a huge hit. I don't understand why I didn't spend half as much time like traveling around the world because it was the middle of COVID so a lot of it I had to do without much like on the ground reporting, like without the shoe leather reporting. But then it's amazing how, you know, about five years later, once I started my own independent journalism or organization, that this story would come back to life and that I could use the great reporting that I had in the background to elevate it. It felt like it was synchronicity because I don't know that if I worked in another news organization they would have quite understood or appreciated what I could bring and would see the value in it the same way. So it feels like a. Felt like it was the right thing and I still covered it while Biden was president. I wrote actually a really big piece for Politico magazine about Epstein called the women who enabled Jeffrey Epstein for Politico magazine. And it just, it just. There wasn't the same like energy behind it. Yeah, it wasn't the same, but I would still comment on it and I would still write about it and I would go on, you know, foreign, foreign tv, like BBC, because they would want me to come on and comment. But it just, it's interesting that the timing worked out with the synchronicity of starting my own outlet and it all kind of coming out at the same time and having the freedom to pursue and not have to ask for permission. Because I don't think people understand that with like journalists, like they're really only able to do what their editors and their bosses want will let them.
- [37:00]
C
Yeah, exactly. What. And I know we're getting close on time here. One of the things that I wanted to ask you is about that is somebody, a young girl, I've got a 13 year old niece who's really like interested in politics and the news and things like that say that she wants to become Tara Paul Mary one day. Excuse me. What do you think that the best route is for women, like wanting to get into journalism? Is it that corporate route where they kind of make those connections and everything and then go out on their own like you did? Or is it straight into independent media and doing the stuff that you're interested in? What advice would you have for young women who want to do what you do?
- [37:40]
E
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- [38:12]
B
So the great question. Thank you. Because I've actually thought about that myself because I've got an all star intern, Abby Baker, on my team. And you see her because we share bylines, she does really great reporting. And I'm trying to nurture her and her journalism because I do think she has a lot of talent and she, she just, she just has it innately in her. I think, you know, for everyone who has that in them, they should keep at it. I see the value in mainstream news. I do. I feel, I see the value in corporate journalism in the sense that you get to work with elders, that you could say, people who have more experience in terms of investigative reporting.
- [38:53]
C
There's built in mentors.
- [38:55]
B
Yeah, you have mentors there. You can learn the basics of reporting. You can learn, like, when is something safe to publish? Because that's a really big thing. Like, I mean, I think I've been doing this now for 15 years and, you know, I'm at a point where I'm like, okay, I know when something feels safe to publish, I feel good about it. I can do my own standards editing, that kind of stuff. But, you know, for someone who's new, they don't know the rules yet. They don't understand the game yet. And it can be risky, especially if they're going down more of the reporting lane rather than the commentary lane. I think if you're doing commentary, you could, you're probably okay. I think you need to be careful and understand like the line between defamation and, you know, and like just general commentary. And I've seen a lot of young pundits, you could say YouTube stars, like, out there. But I. And I think if you're doing kind of more of like a chat show and you're, you know, you're probably fine. But I think if you want to be an investigative journalist, I think you probably should have a few years of experience in a newsroom or at least working under someone like me or someone else who can really nurture you and help you learn the ropes so you don't make mistakes. It's just like, you know, there are pitfalls, calls, it's expensive, it takes time. It's. You know, and I think you have to be. You have to be guided a little bit. Like, I'm grateful for the time I had in corporate media, but, you know.
- [40:28]
C
And if you can, I guess if you're gonna go into independent media, get as lucky as Abby is and find somebody as great as you to learn.
- [40:36]
B
From under one day, have an army of great independent journalists underneath me that are just like, maybe I'll be the editor in chief and go find stories, dig in, have fun. You know, that's a dream. So we'll see. Hopefully that happens. If not, I'll be here regardless.
- [40:58]
C
You still be doing the work, telling the truth, right?
- [41:01]
B
Yeah. Evan, thank you so much for having me and for featuring me and my. And my work. It really means a lot to me.
- [41:06]
C
I. Listen, I appreciate you so much. I know you're a busy woman. You are a superstar. I think it's great work that you're doing, not only advocating for, you know, you advocate for victims, you advocate for stories, and you advocate for people like me. Just trying to tell the truth and get their voice out there. And I really, really, really appreciate you. And anybody who's watching, please go subscribe to Tara. She has the red letter on substack, Right. The Tara Palmieri show on YouTube. And they can find you on social media at Tara, Paul, Mary and everything.
- [41:39]
B
Yep. Yeah. And, yeah, Evan, keep rocking it. I mean, you're crushing substack, and I'm trying. Yeah. I love your vulnerability and your inquisitiveness, and I think that's why you have such a big following, that people sense that you're like them, that you understand them, and that you are. You know, you don't want the.
- [42:03]
C
Which I think it's okay for guys to not be douchebags and just be kind and empathetic. You know what I mean? That's all I want to do, that and tell some truth. And we are good to go.
- [42:13]
B
Yeah.
- [42:13]
C
I appreciate you, Tara.
- [42:14]
B
I support the cause.
- [42:16]
C
Absolutely. You Take care. Thank you so much for joining us, guys.
- [42:20]
B
Cheers.
- [42:20]
C
All right. Bye.
- [42:21]
B
Bye. That was another episode of the Tara Palmieri Show. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you like this show, please rate it, subscribe, subscribe. Follow Share it with all of your friends. Please leave comments if you like my reporting, you can go to tarapalmieri.com that's T A R A P A L M E R I. You can sign up for the red letter. That's where you can get all of my exclusive reporting and my independent journalism straight to your inbox. It is how you can support my independent journalism and I will keep at it. Thanks to you. I want to thank my producer Eric Oppenhate. I want to thank Abby Baker who does my research and my social media. And Adam Stewart on the thumbnails. I'll be back again this week. I'm thankful for all of you. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving week and you are able to take it a little slower.
- [43:09]
D
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