Podcast Summary: The Team House – Bin Laden Sighted in 2005 in Pakistan

Guest(s): Jack Murphy & Sean Naylor
Host: Steve (for Eyes on Geopolitics)
Date: December 4, 2025
Topic: Investigating the 2005 sighting of a figure believed to be Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, the politics and intelligence around the manhunt, and exclusive reporting insights.

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the remarkable story recently published by Jack Murphy and Sean Naylor—investigative reporters behind the High Side Substack—about a long-hidden 2005 sighting of someone strongly resembling Osama bin Laden in Pakistan. The reporting explores the circumstances of the sighting, how US and Pakistani intelligence agencies handled it, the evidence, and what it reveals about broader US-Pakistani intelligence cooperation and intrigue during the post-9/11 era. The conversation also reflects on reporting tradecraft and future projects.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How the Bin Laden Sighting Story Came to Light

• Long-held Secret: Sean Naylor describes how he was first approached by a source with photos from 2005—photos purportedly showing bin Laden in remote Pakistan. The source was unwilling to go public until recently.
  • Quote (Sean, 02:33):

    "Sometimes reporters have to sit on a story for a certain amount of time... I basically had to wait a little over a decade before we could really do the story."

• Initial Meeting:
  • Naylor traveled to meet the source in person, who handed over a manila envelope with the photos.
  • Ethical reporting: withheld publishing until source was comfortable.

2. The Scene: The 2005 Encounter in Pakistan

• The Mission Setup (08:47-11:28):
  • Three-man CIA team (case officer, contractor, interpreter/driver) in remote Chitral Valley, an area near the Afghan border believed as plausible for bin Laden.
  • CIA contractor nicknamed "Marco Polos" involved.
• The Actual Sighting:
  • While pulled over, a jeep with a man and family passes. The man looks exactly like bin Laden; photos and video are quickly taken.
  • Quote (Sean, 10:03):

    "When you look at the photographs...you'll be like, holy, that's bin Laden."

3. Why Not Intervene? The Rules of Engagement

• Decision Not to Act (11:10):
  • No standing "lethal finding" (legal order) to kill bin Laden at that moment.
  • Source’s rationale: acting without official sanction could mean jail, and even if successful, escaping the valley would have been impossible.
  • Quote (Sean, 11:14):

    "If I got out of the car and shot him, I could have gone to jail."

4. Analysis and Aftermath: Was It Really Bin Laden?

• Evidence Sent to CIA HQ:
  • 26 still frames from video sent to CIA; photo analysts at Langley judged "with above 90th percentile" certainty it was bin Laden.
    • This became the "best evidence" since 2002 (11:50).
• Reassessment:
  • Further investigation suggested it was more likely a doppelganger—a lookalike Afghan lumber merchant regularly crossing into Pakistan.
• Pakistan's Role:
  • CIA provided Pakistani ISI with the photographs (including clear vehicle license plates).
  • Pakistani authorities tracked the individual; subsequent American inquiries in Afghanistan seem to confirm it wasn't bin Laden.
  • Quote (Jack, 14:01):

    "The police chief apparently was like, I know who you’re talking about. Yeah, he does look like bin Laden. You know, come with me, we’ll go meet him..."

5. US-Pakistan Intelligence Tensions

• Controversial Disclosure (17:25):
  • The CIA station chief in Islamabad, during a visit in Washington due to the ISI chief’s hospital stay, showed the photos as “proof” of bin Laden in Pakistan.
  • This move upset many inside the CIA, arguing it was uncoordinated and might have compromised the bin Laden hunt.
  • Quote (Jack, 21:00):

    "What was quite clear from our interviews was that the act of the CIA station chief divulging this information to the head of the ISI made a lot of people in the CIA very upset."

• Ongoing US-ISI Mistrust:
  • Perception that elements of ISI were managing/hiding bin Laden.
  • Quote (Jack, 21:37):

    "The ISI...had created virtually the Taliban, at least the Taliban would never have been able to take over Afghanistan the first time without the ISI's support..."

6. Aftermath: Realignment in Intelligence Sharing

• Following this episode and the Abbottabad raid, cooperation on bin Laden’s location all but stopped (26:11).
• Abbottabad Commission: cited this hospital room conversation as the last time the CIA shared useful bin Laden info with ISI.

7. Changing Thinking on Bin Laden’s Movements

• Big City vs. Remote Hideouts (27:50-29:32):
  • New sources suggest bin Laden spent time not just hidden in valleys but also in Pakistani metropolises like Karachi.
  • The CIA abandoned the idea he’d always have a large, visible security detail.

8. The CIA-ISI Relationship: Enduring Complexity

• Multiple sources, books, and reports (Steve Coll, The Exile) detail decades of “who’s managing whom?”
• Many believe the truth—about what ISI or leadership like General Kayani really knew—may never be fully known (32:24).

9. Reporting Tradecraft, Ethics, and Upcoming High Side Investigations

• High Side’s Approach (39:15-41:44):
  • Only publish deeply sourced, truly exclusive material.
  • Murphy and Naylor prioritize not just scooping but establishing facts against official denials and silence.
  • Quote (Jack, 41:44):

    "Our rule of thumb...is it has to be substantially exclusive information. So you know, you're not getting just hot takes from us."

• Upcoming features include the continuation of Havana Syndrome reporting, the "Willie Murkison" series, and other major stories.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He hands me a manila envelope...and inside is pictures he took of Osama bin Laden in 2005. And I’m like, holy shit, this is crazy.” – Sean Naylor (03:02)
• “If I got out of the car and shot him, I could have gone to jail.” – Sean Naylor (11:14)
• “There’s only one way in and out. So that’s a one way trip for you.” – Sean Naylor (11:42)
• "This was considered the best evidence we had on bin Laden on his location since, you know, 2002." – Sean Naylor (11:56)
• “...the ISI essentially had created virtually the Taliban...the Taliban would never have been able to take over Afghanistan the first time without the ISI's support...” – Jack Murphy (21:37)
• “It became very frustrating and there was a real feeling...that the Islamabad station had essentially been captured by the ISI.” – Jack Murphy (22:48)
• "You're never going to get the whole story on that one." – Sean Naylor, on CIA–ISI relations (30:37)
• "I would say you guys are two of the best sourced reporters probably on this beat." – Host, Steve (46:34)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:32] Sean Naylor describes how the story and his source came to him
• [08:47] Breakdown of the CIA surveillance group and the actual sighting
• [11:10-11:45] Why the team did not attempt to apprehend or attack "bin Laden"
• [14:01] Follow-up, sending a US team to verify Pakistani claims on the ground
• [17:25] CIA station chief shows photos to ISI head in Bethesda; ramifications
• [21:00] Blowback within the CIA after sharing info with ISI
• [26:11] Reference to Abbottabad Commission report; change in CIA-ISI info sharing
• [29:32] New thinking about how bin Laden stayed hidden—sometimes in plain sight
• [39:15] The High Side’s reporting philosophy and current/future projects

Additional Topics

• Omega & Zero Units (36:11–38:54):
  • Discussion of clandestine Afghan units supported by CIA and JSOC, their roles, and controversial legacies.
• How The High Side Works (39:15–41:44):
  • Details on exclusivity, thorough investigation, and a peek at developing stories.
• Upcoming Stories (43:46–47:02):
  • Havana Syndrome follow-up, more deep-dive features, and potential collaborations with other national security journalists.

Closing Thoughts

This episode offers rare insight into the lived realities of intelligence work, the painstaking nature of real-world reporting, and the enduring mysteries of the bin Laden manhunt. By foregrounding exclusive firsthand accounts and unpacking the fraught dynamics between US and Pakistani intelligence, Murphy and Naylor deliver both gripping espionage storytelling and important context for how history’s most famous manhunt unfolded amidst bureaucratic suspicion and inter-agency maneuvering.

For further reading or to keep up with their investigations, subscribe to the High Side Substack.