Mike Yagley (3:31)

The Team House with your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

Jack Murphy (3:43)

Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 401 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here today with our guest, Mike Yagley. Mike had a long career and this is a little bit different for our podcast in ad technology, but that also played into using that technology for intelligence purposes with the special operations community. And Mike was a big part of the program that was called Locomotive and then visor and consults with the intelligence community with our government and actually has some very interesting stories to talk about regarding OPSEC and signature reduction and how we go looking for bad guys out there in the world. So thank you, Mike, for joining us.

Mike Yagley (4:25)

Thanks for having me. It's great to be in the Team House.

Jack Murphy (4:28)

Yeah, yeah. This is. I mean, I love, as much as I love interviewing, like rangers and operators and stuff like that, it's cool to get the behind the scenes and kind of hear the other side of the story because there's a lot, as I'm sure you learned when you were working there, there's a lot that goes into making these operations happen.

Mike Yagley (4:46)

It's, it's. So if you think about intelligence as a data set, whether it's humint, elint, sigint, they are data sets. And there's this other component of data set that is called commercial data. It is the data that everybody generates the telemetry off of your devices, your watches, your smartphones, your Smart refrigerators, your cars, the stuff we click on, the video, everything. We basically have agreed to carry sensors with us wherever we go. And those sensors have become systemic to our, our livelihoods. But that data tells a very, very interesting, very intimate story. And that story is told about operators, case officers, special agents, the community that has acute requirements for discretion or privacy. They can't outrun this, our adversaries can't outrun it. And so it is emerging as an int that is low risk, low cost to acquire compared to other forms. And when introduced as this new concept about 10 years ago, you know, people were comparing it to the, you know, this is like the M4, you know, it's revolutionary. Meanwhile, the advertising community had been doing it since smartphones became ubiquitous. Some of the best geospatial intelligence analysts work on Madison Avenue wearing skinny jeans. But they are developing patterns of life of consumers for a different conversion metric. They're looking for Lyft and to sell us stuff we don't need. Whereas the conversion metric, whether it's a targeting application or an opsec or counterintelligence application is. The words are different but at the same, we're looking for the same kind of lift. And we, we think about this, the, the intelligence world as having the answers to everything. And from a, from the perspective of innovation and what the taxpayer should expect of their government to be innovating. There are pockets within our government that do this very well and they're usually not, it's not in their remit to be innovators. They're doing it because the mission requires.

Jack Murphy (7:44)

Yeah, they have to.

Mike Yagley (7:45)

And this program happened because of 28 year olds who weren't told to go and be innovative, they just were. And that should make us feel good. Yeah. So if you think about this evolution over this period of time, we've gotten a little better, but we need to be able to move a little faster. We're still trying to figure out what to make of commercial data. Well, we've had 10 years. We should be beyond the policy paper and we should be in full operational mode.

Jack Murphy (8:30)

Well, let's take a step back here. You spent about 20 years in the private sector. Tell us a little bit about kind of like how you found your way into that line of work. What did you start doing as an entry level guy versus where you ended

Mike Yagley (8:46)

up 20 years later? Well, so I came of age in the dot com revolution, worked for a bunch of startups in that period of time. None of them exited, which is why I'm still working. But I'VE always been in the data analytics field, either as a project manager implementation on the BD side, business development side, but always in that space of integrating various data sets into what we would call in the, in the community, a common operating picture or what's called in the, in the private sector business intelligence. Where you're looking at, you know, the equivalent would be, you may have heard the story where you've got a guy who comes into a store and he buys, he's there to buy diapers and he buys a six pack of beer and that correlation is visible in point of sale data. While the same mechanics work, when we're talking about intelligence, we're looking for patterns and correlation and things that are non obvious. But when you take a step back it's like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So 20 years doing that type of work at a higher speed because of implementation mechanics and things like that.

Jack Murphy (10:12)

I mean the time frames involved, I mean you're going from presumably a time when the Internet was still pretty primitive to the advent of social media. I mean you must have seen some pretty tremendous changes in your field.

Mike Yagley (10:24)

Oh, I mean, so the Internet, I was working in this field when the. Didn't quite know what the Internet was as a delivery mechanism. So think about it this way. We had electricity and that was, that was groundbreaking. But what was the killer app for electricity? The light switch that made it, I

Jack Murphy (10:50)

was going to say AC electricity.

Mike Yagley (10:52)

The light switch was the equivalent of the browser. Right, right. The interface. The interface. It made it so that everybody could use it. You didn't need to write scripts and code, you could use it. And then it just became the platform that everything is built off of. So back then it was interesting if your app was designed for the web as opposed to being something you'd go and install on a corporate server and host it and you'd have to go to the, you know, the AS400 server to get to it. This was pre those, those days and companies that sort of, you know, there were a lot of companies that were functioning as companies when they were really just features and functions of some larger capability. And that's where you started seeing the consolidation. So yeah, I, I was in working in the valley when this was happening. The hubris and the arrogance and the self righteousness was just like out of control.

Jack Murphy (12:04)

When you say that you mean sort of that like famous Jurassic park quote of like you ran towards it so quickly that you never really thought if you should.

Mike Yagley (12:14)

Yeah, exactly. The idea of I am smarter and have a vision that others can't quite ponder and get right. Only I, only I can see through this. And so there was a lot of, you know, and I was, I was, I was young at the time, but so I've seen a lot of the failures. I've seen how things don't scale. And when I started this with, with, with jsoc, we were able to look at it from a perspective of minimum viable product mvp. So we're not going to try to build boil the ocean with a match. We're going to start with very basic functionality and grow it incrementally, just along a linear path, but doing it in a way where I'm sitting with intelligence analysts at the Joint Intelligence Brigade, the jib, which is, was my sponsoring entity and sort of walking them through how this works in there. If we could do it this way, would that. And I'm just taking requirements and sort of building the capability that way. The interesting piece in all of this was that we decided that the command did not need more software. They did not need an interface, they did not need an application. They wanted data. They wanted the raw data, which, you know, they have their analysts, we have our analysts, and we have more geospatial capability than we know what to do with. We want data. And that was, that was a, that was an interesting decision because typically people want the easy button. They want a really cool interface where they can log in, do their thing. They don't have to think about it. We were selling raw data to jsoc.

Jack Murphy (14:25)

So before we jump into the military side of it, I just want to dwell on this just a little bit longer for some of our viewers and myself included, who might not be familiar with the industry. When I think of ad tech, what is ad tech? To me, it is like. You see those ads on Facebook.

Mike Yagley (14:42)

Yep.

Jack Murphy (14:42)

They're targeting me because they know I like to paint scale miniatures. So they're going to try to sell me scale miniatures. Somebody who's a little more wealthy, they're trying to sell them Lexuses or something like this. How does, you know, what do you see ad tech as, you know, in the industry? What else am I missing there that it includes?

Mike Yagley (15:04)

I mean, that's. So if you think about ad tech, ad tech is technology, infrastructure powered by data. The underlying, the decisions or the analysis is made through data. And what Adtech basically is nurturing is this ability to connect an advertiser with a consumer in a millisecond through something called real time bidding, where there is space on your device for an ad Placement.

Jack Murphy (15:37)

This is like Google Ads.

Mike Yagley (15:39)

Google Ads. Okay. Yep, yep. So this ad tech is the infrastructure that makes all of that happen at scale, where you're playing a game and you get an ad. And that ad, the premise or the thesis is that ad that you are seeing on your device is relevant to you. Now, chances are because you're playing a game, the ad is going to source or consider that contextual signal. You are a gamer, so you'll buy more games. So you'll buy more games. So you're probably seeing more ads for games. I will tell you, there is no. I do not know of any situation where ad tech has intercepted, and I've heard this story before, that intercepted somebody who's on their way to Starbucks with an ad that's diverted them to some other coffee place. Doesn't work that way. This is sort of a long tail of targeting you based upon some contextual.

Jack Murphy (16:39)

It's like, what do they say? That somebody has to have like eight impressions or something like that before for

Mike Yagley (16:44)

recall and things like that. So, yeah, this is what this is. This is the. The premise behind advertising. Especially when you see billboard ads and you ask yourself, how is that? How's that moving me?

Jack Murphy (16:56)

And so what's your role in this industry? Are you a programmer? Are you a statistician? What is it?

Mike Yagley (17:01)

Yeah, in that. In that world, I was sourcing and looking at different data sets to enhance the targeting capability. So the ad tech world, they didn't invent data brokerage, but they were big consumers of companies that had data sets that were interesting that could provide an unusual signal or a signal that was a differentiator. And so I came from that angle of the world where I'm out scouting for data sets and talking to companies that maybe they don't even know they've got a data set that's worth anything and bringing that to market purely on the commercial side.

Jack Murphy (17:50)

And like, I've known people that, you know, they talk about these folks in Madison Avenue that almost as life, you know, it's the Illuminati or something. But I am a little curious, like working in this field for 20 years, did you ever have a moment like, holy shit, yeah.

Mike Yagley (18:05)

So that I had the epiphany, you know, was we are building cohorts based upon these very discreet signals about who they are and what they are likely to do. And at the time, being able to attribute those signals to an actual person, the community, that industry wasn't doing that. They're looking to try to sell to a thousand people but you could resolve an intent signal based upon an ad ID gps. And I think it's what's, what's important to understand is that the mobile phone changed advertising because advertising was limited to what you were watching on TV and what you were doing on your browser,

Jack Murphy (19:03)

magazines and those kinds of things.

Mike Yagley (19:06)

The mobile phone gave a new foundational understanding of human geography based upon where you go and that we called that when you're offline, what are you doing? Well, you're going to crossfit, you're going to gun ranges, you're going to a European car dealership and then we see you at three other European car dealerships. You must be in the market for a European car and resolving those signals and being able to then sell a group of people that are indicating that they are interested in a European import as a very precise cohort group of likely buyers changed everything. Now what I will tell you is that cat videos don't sell. Nikes and Facebook or Meta learn that really hard when they lost the ad ID three years ago, cost them about $10 billion in over two quarters because that precise the ability to append your offline patterns of life to a stable identifier. If you're on your mobile device and you go to privacy settings and you say no cross tracking or you turn off all of your location services. That upended companies like Facebook and how they were doing targeted ads. And that was again another change in that industry that drove advertising to new levels of inference and awareness and being able to connect the dots that aren't so obvious to understand intense signals and don't confuse an advertiser and an adversary. They're doing the same thing. Conversion metrics are a little different. Right. But there's not, there's not a lot of difference in how they target. How they target. Yeah.

Jack Murphy (21:22)

Tell us the story about how you were talking to a company about ad tech and how JSOC initially approached you.

Mike Yagley (21:31)

So I, this is, I set the stage. I'm at a very bougie hotel doing a presentation to an investor conference of, of hedge funds. They're quantitative analysts who do nothing but crunch data looking for signal in that data to feed their black boxes, looking for buy signals that nobody else can see. And so I'm giving this presentation about alternative data and particularly this new sort of data set that gives high fidelity information about what's going on at locations. And so I wrap up my presentation. I was given a bunch of use cases involving the United States and as you know, people do when they're Presenting sort of dwelling at the podium, answering questions, passing business cards around. And I see two guys sort of lingering at the, sort of at the side. And I should also say that at a conference like this it is very Patagonia laden, you know, sweater, Patagonia vests and the uniform of the day. But these guys are not dressed like that. And so they approach and I will tell you that they definitely did not fit into the hedge fund crowd. I'm wondering what, what is, what are the Hell's Angels interested in? Because they looked like 1 percenters from an emcee. But the questions they asked were phenomenal. They were very aware of data, they were very aware of ad tech. But the question that they really had was we're interested in every, the use cases that you presented about the United States. Can you do this overseas? Well sure, of course we can do, we're, we're advertising in Europe and Middle east of course. How about sort of the developing world? What, what do you mean? And they sort of paused, got, got permission you know, in to, to, to reveal some countries and they said could you do this in Syria, Libya or Yemen? And it took me back and I at that point I realized that okay, these are not, these are not hedge fund, these are not hedges from Stanford, Connecticut.

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Mike Yagley (28:46)

And that began this long relationship with JSOC because they were, they were referenced from the Joint Intelligence Brigade. The one guy John was troop, troop commander or something like that. And they were in the biz. They were there scouting for new data sets that would give them fidelity into these war zones for pick your reason for targeting. Can we better understand what is going on in this, you know, this, this, this polygon area? Do we, can we define how many women, children who is interacting with this location? And that kicked off a proof of concept which you mentioned called locomotive which was the combination of location and motive. I came up with that because I at the time had a 10 year old daughter and I said I need some, I need a name to call this thing and I can't keep saying location motive because that's just hard to say. So come up with something. And this was pre chat GPT days and like a minute later she's like call locomotive.

Jack Murphy (30:07)

She came up with that.

Mike Yagley (30:08)

Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. So and so I talk about innovation because this is really sort of a two tier story because we were innovating but it wasn't a, an innovation initiative. It was we have hard targets and we need fidelity. Let's get after this. And so it wasn't something where we were just out of the gate, you know all you know, fireworks and bells and whistles. There were some struggles. There was a lot of entrenched sort of attitudes like from sig enters who believe that the only way to get this kind of data was to right, you know, intercept it which you know, you can, you can fly around, you can drive around, you can intercept a lot of stuff. Trying to, you know, invoking yourself as a cell tower and invoking if you own the airspace. Yeah, you can do that at scale. And I had to repeatedly say as I was being Called a snake oil salesman and a charlatan. Like, to my face, I would have to say, I didn't hack, engineer, intercept, or steal this data. I bought it. And that took a long time for the community get their head around, like, okay, so that's not intelligence. You bought it like, we need to go and spy on people and we need the intercept in order for it to be an int.

Jack Murphy (31:35)

Exactly, yeah. And I think they struggled with OSINT for quite a while, but for that reason they're like, well, it's not classified.

Mike Yagley (31:43)

What is it? What do we do? Yeah, same, same, same deal. And this is, you know, where they, they get wrapped around the axle. Trying to define what some of these things are. Who cares? It's data that's useful. It's data that's useful to the mission.

Jack Murphy (31:58)

So

Mike Yagley (32:00)

figure out where it fits. Now, I will say that in some of these, like, there was. We were on the clock. You're at jsoc, so you're brought in

Jack Murphy (32:14)

as a contractor, brought in as a. Show us that you can make this work in three months or something.

Mike Yagley (32:19)

I would, yeah, I had a little longer than three months. But you know how it is at jsoc. Like, you've got one shot, you know, like, and they are unforgiving and they are hard customer. Right. And so, you know, this wasn't something where it was like, I can show you where all your HVTs are tomorrow. It doesn't work that way. But that was sort of the expectation like, oh, this is, this is magic. So trying to build a use case that they could, they could understand. Like, you need to understand that we're not really going after the hvt. We're going after the areas, his centers of gravity to look and better understand what's going on.

Jack Murphy (33:01)

Right, right.

Mike Yagley (33:02)

I needed a use case to show them that. So one night as I'm on the clock and like, I don't want to blow this, I draw a geofence around an area on Fort Bragg that is not jsoc. Not Fort Bragg large. A particular location at Fort Bragg, which is not, you know, it's anybody. Everybody knows where that compound is. And when you look down on it and you see all the red roofs, you know what you're looking at. So I geofenced that area. I should also say that I'm doing all of this in a highly secure area in between my master bedroom and my daughter's bedroom in my home office. Draw the geofence around the Delta compound, hit play to see where the devices go where they were before, where they were after. And in Syria, I get a cluster

Jack Murphy (34:13)

of devices that correlate with what you were seeing at Fort Bragg.

Mike Yagley (34:17)

Because they were there in Syria, at this facility, in. In Syria, they were at Fort Bragg. They have. They have consistent dwell time between these two places. And I pulled it back a little further and was able to track the devices that started at Fort Bragg as my seed location. Now they're in this place in Syria making cement. And I bring them. I track these devices to residences in a town called Southern Pines, North Carolina. Now, if you are part of the Fort Bragg community, you know that Southern Pines is a bedroom community where if you can afford to live there because you make a little extra money, I'm

Jack Murphy (35:04)

surprised you didn't just put a geofence around o' Donnell's and that.

Mike Yagley (35:11)

That would have been too easy. And I'm bringing up. I'm show. I'm coming up with the homes of operators who are at this. At. At. At what we call LCF Lafarge cement factory. And I'm like, this is interesting. I had no a priori knowledge. I wasn't looking.

Jack Murphy (35:31)

Yeah, you weren't read on to what they were doing over there?

Mike Yagley (35:33)

I wasn't. I did not. I was not looking for a French company's French conglomerate cement facility in Syria, nor was I even aware that Southern Pines had any connection to Delta. I kind of package it up. I don't really know what I have here. Drive down to Bragg. I think. I think you should see something. I don't know what it is. And I've got my PowerPoints and my handouts and it's one of those moments where if I had known. It's the kind of thing where you say, do I have your attention now? Because this was not an overt forward operating base and the residences and who they belong to, they were like. I showed pictures and people were like, that's Sergeant Major's house. Yeah, that's, you know, that's.

Jack Murphy (36:33)

I, I imagine this brief went over

Mike Yagley (36:35)

like a lead balloon that was like, room gets cleared. You know, my. My badge went from, you know, yellow to black or something. You know, it just. It. Everything got a little bit more intense at that point. And I got an audience with CG and sort of explained to him how I did it, what I was doing. Signers weren't as. As hostile towards me from that point forward, but that was sort of the moment when, like the next meeting that I did, briefing a much larger group, my contact down there introduces me as you know, he's like, we've got the subject matter expert in this stuff. And I'm looking around like, who? Is there somebody else? And it was like, oh, that's me. And so over the course of 10 years, got involved with signature management, identity management, the various working groups, whether it's up north, down south, at the beach in Tampa, all over the place, trying to sort of corral this signature management problem, this ubiquitous technical surveillance problem that you've had really great guests on before, talking about it. And you know, the community sort of approaches it from the perspective of, well, we just need to educate everybody about this risk and, and really overload them with ad tech stuff and really get them to understand what's going on. But we only have. You're an operator, you only have so many cognitive cycles to process things. It's like, tell me what I need to know, tell me how we defeat this. And for the last 10 years I've been explaining, this isn't something you defeat, you are up against. Before we even talk about an adversary, you're up against an $8 trillion duopoly. Google and Apple, they support a nearly trillion dollar advertising ecosystem. They are both unified in a mission to predict behavior of humans at planetary scale. So right out of the gate, you are trying to defeat nearly $10 trillion of market cap with your mission center and three dudes who learned about ad tech three days ago.

Jack Murphy (39:05)

The Leviathan.

Mike Yagley (39:06)

Yes. So right out of the gate, the deck is stacked. This is not something you defeat. This is something that you figure out how to operate within. And yes, tradecraft, yes. The things we do out in the field cannot hide inside the embassy cannot hide because of uts. We have to figure out where are the seams where we can operate, where are the gaps that we can operate. And I think we're at a point now where the community has stopped referring to it as referring to UTs as this existential threat, which if you think about words, existential means unless you solve this, your reason for existing is no longer done. You're done. So I wouldn't describe it as an existential threat. I would describe it as, you know, an operating condition that we need to figure out. And there are, there are fewer mitigations that one can apply, is more about interventions. And the number one question that I get from the operational community is how do I get myself out of commercial data? And if we think about it from a first principles perspective, all of this risk starts with the devices we carry and all of the data that they emit. That tell a story about who we are. And particularly for the operational community, it's not so much what you're exposing when you're on the X or doing an act because you know, those are, those are different scenarios. It's everything that happens when you're home, when you're just, you know, like you're, you're, you're working your CIA and you're working, you're working headquarters, but you're running around D.C. going to sites, doing stuff, meeting with people. If I'm an adversary and I'm interested in that cohort, I'm very interested in what you're doing when you're not on the X or engaged in an operational act. All of that is very useful information. And when we think about UTs, the shift, and I hate to be somebody that's like AI is going to change the world, but the shift that is underway is, I mean, firstly, you know, UTS U. Yeah, a lot of cameras and hardware and infrastructure, all that stuff. But I'm not convinced that our primary adversary has developed an integration scheme where all of this is manifesting itself in a minority report like environment. They collect a lot of data. They being the CCP is who I'm talking about. Right.

Jack Murphy (41:59)

But do they have like an op

Mike Yagley (42:00)

sen where they're correlating all this and, and in there, if you think about them culturally, they believe that I'm collecting a lot. That means I have, I have a lot of intelligence. And they're collecting a bunch of raw data. Yeah. You know, and what are they doing with it? I'm not convinced that they have, you know, developed this, this prescient.

Jack Murphy (42:25)

The Panopticon.

Mike Yagley (42:26)

The Panopticon. But they are collecting. But what I will do. And just think about your own use of some of these platforms. If you think about all of the data that is on your device and you think about it from the perspective of an, of an operator, case officer. The population, I'm going to use this example because this is possible. The population in the United States of people who power down their phone three or four times a week, twice a week, who power down their phone at all is very, very small. You leave your phone on at night, you're not powering it down during the day. The way in which apps are collecting data on your device, you install an app and you've basically given it permission to interrogate the entire device. Do you know Apple, the privacy device. Apple gives its consumers two selectors to minim to, to suppress data in its privacy, in its Privacy settings, the ad id, you can click that off, and location data. Those are the two selectors that Apple permits its consumers to invoke privacy. So you have an app on your phone. Maybe it's not collecting your ad ID because you, you're not allowing that. And maybe it can't get your GPS because you've turned that off. So it's going to look at all of the other telemetry that your device is collecting. It's going to pull it, prepare it to exfil off your device. And when it does that, and that's a very normal behavior between an app, it needs to exchange data for functionality, but it's also looking at all sorts of other extraneous components that have nothing to do with functionality. And it's pulling it, it encrypts it before it transmits.

Jack Murphy (44:40)

So it uses my phone as an encryption device.

Mike Yagley (44:44)

And you have no, you have no, you have no awareness of what it's collected, what it's done, what it's, and why. So if you are somebody in the community and you're powering down your phone two or three times a week, and that is anomalous to the rest of the working population globally, let alone Washington D.C. but in Washington D.C. if I'm interested, because I have awareness that there's policy that you can get off the Internet that says on your way one mile away from a black site or whatever you want to call it, power down your phone, that is, that is doctrine. If I'm interested in Everybody in the D.C. area that does that to or three times a week, I now have everyone, 500 targets, 300 targets, 50 targets. And that instead of looking at the population of D.C. and trying to figure out who's in the business, now I have the probability of who's in the business.

Jack Murphy (45:45)

I mean, they deal with it overseas too. Like if the bad guys catch you, you know, putting your phone in a Faraday bag or something like who the does that? Yeah, you know, a normal, normal tourist isn't behaving like that.

Mike Yagley (45:56)

Right. So this is something that's interesting. So, and this is just on the commercial side. So company will, let's, let's just, let's use a real scenario here. You, you travel overseas, you're traveling with a special phone or a phone that's your travel phone. So there's nothing, let's just assume there is nothing about you that anybody could glean from your phone. And it's a normal phone. It's not a op phone. It's, it's A normal phone, but it's

Jack Murphy (46:30)

your travel phone, your work phone.

Mike Yagley (46:32)

So you check into your hotel and the hotel has, knows nothing about you. You're not part of the rewards program. What the hotel or the adversary will do is sort of a cold start. What do cohorts that have come in from the States who stay at this type of hotel, what do we expect them to do when they are in our country? Let's model that and be able to do that while they're here looking for these anomalous behaviors. So if you think about, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to try to defeat uts, I'm going to try to defeat the machine with a travel phone or they're, they're looking at it from that perspective and they're ahead of you. So how do you, how do you function, how do you do, how do you do your job without feeling like somebody is constantly watching you? Because they are. That is part of the, you have to accept that, right? Observation is ambient. You're going to be observed. You are not going to go black. You can, you can do an SDR for 12 hours. They're not, you know, they're, they're just going to replay the tape and they're going to let AI look at, show me everybody who went, you know, walking around for eight hours and you know, did these types of stops. Show me all of those devices. That's the power of AI from an inference capability. And that all comes from the devices we are carrying. So it doesn't have to be an overt, you know, signature. It can be a very non obvious, very slight, subtle permutation in that data that is, that exceeds the baseline of expectation. And that to me is that's what UTS is going to look like because that's what the commercial advertising is world is doing. So the, the primitives are already available. Now we just need to sort of change the names to make it.

Jack Murphy (48:37)

So if you're trying to stay off the grid, so to speak, I mean, how do you work with this technology or flow in that technology while not pinging up on someone's radar?

Mike Yagley (48:48)

So a couple different ways of doing that. So if we think about it from a first principles perspective, the number one thing that we need to figure out if commercial data, if telemetry is the problem, we need to figure out how to limit the amount of telemetry that we are making available by virtue of the phones we carry. Like de facto, let's cut out all the bullshit about Persona management and signature Management and all that. Let's figure out how to reduce the amount of data that we are willingly give. Right, right. And that doesn't. That's not something that just an operator or an IO should be. That is like a human dignity issue. Right. And. And this capability is something that, whether you're, you know, in the community or not, this is, this is privacy. Being able to carry a phone that works, functions, and does all of the great things that phones do without it being this constant spy device. Spy device. So that's the first thing that we need to tackle from a posture of what do we accept as humans about what we're willing to share? And you want to sort of tune up my, my adrenaline. Tell me. Well, I have nothing to hide, so I don't care. Okay. That assumes you know who's looking. Ask Lindsey Graham whether. Lindsay. I don't know whether you all are. I'm going to attack him a little bit here because Lindsey Graham was telling us all back in the early days of the Patriot act that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.

Jack Murphy (50:34)

You think he's got something to worry about?

Mike Yagley (50:36)

Until Arctic Frost and the FBI decided to pull his CDRs and he decided, well, that's bullshit. I'm going to sue you. $500,000 per incident, Mr. I have nothing to hide. You shouldn't worry about the government, the nsa, collecting your data, blah, blah, blah. Okay. You know, not for me, but for the. Yeah. And this just, this is, this just happened a couple months ago when he was told Cash Patel disclosed that I think it was eight senators were, were wrapped up in the Arctic Frost poll. And, you know, the indignation and the outrage was, was palpable. And it's different. Like there was a warrant to go pull their data. But at the same time, Mr. Senator, if you've got nothing to hide, what do you care? Maybe you have something to hide.

Jack Murphy (51:31)

Yeah. Little cautious about, about politicians telling us things like that.

Mike Yagley (51:35)

It's just. It's the kind of thing where we talk about this, the risk of data and adversaries. But who's the adversary? Is it an advertiser? Who do I want an advertiser to have this intimate knowledge of who I am, what I'm doing. How does that benefit me? And the more we allow convenience, these frictionless sort of technology interfaces to make it really easy for us. Every point where friction has been alleviated is a point where your data now is available because we've, we've create, we've, we've eliminated Those firebreaks, you know, I,

Jack Murphy (52:30)

as you're talking, I just got me thinking. I mean, when I think of ubiquitous surveillance and the Panopticon and all this sort of thing, I think big countries, United States, China, Russia. But as you point out, you bought this data on the commercial market. That means that countries like Vietnam, Rwanda could be operationalizing this data against us

Mike Yagley (52:54)

potentially 100% because there's, there are no guardrails. There's not a, you don't need to, you know, send a note to the.

Jack Murphy (53:03)

What do you got something to hide, Mike?

Mike Yagley (53:04)

Yeah, there's no, there are no guardrails. Anybody can do it. It's gotten a little tighter. And you know, companies have had some headline exposure by selling data to, you know, bail bondsmen and the private investors recently, that kind. Yep, absolutely. And this is, this is a, this is the hard question because we of course want our law enforcement to have every available tool at their disposal to go after criminals, bad guys. Yeah, that has been over. That's being overseen by a judge and, and it is lawful. But when it becomes too easy to be able to look deeply into a potential suspect's life, we've got a slippery slope.

Jack Murphy (53:59)

Right.

Mike Yagley (54:00)

And, and I've worked with one of my, one of the early customers, advisor was the FBI, another special agent, street agent, not a bureaucrat, street agent, the kind of guy that you want, when you think of an FBI agent, this is what, you know, 6, 5 Marine can recite the Constitution, you know, came up in the FBI. His father was an agent. But you know, it's what you, you know, it's how we develop, develop faith in our right, these institutions. When that faith is broken, then it becomes difficult for me to say we should, you know, this should be a no brainer that they have all of these tools because we know, I know that there is abuse and corner cutting.

Jack Murphy (54:52)

Right.

Mike Yagley (54:53)

And that is a problem for me.

Jack Murphy (54:55)

Yeah, I can definitely see the double edged sword. Like on one hand you want them to have all the tools, tools to like catch Internet predators and stuff like that.

Mike Yagley (55:03)

We can all agree on that.

Jack Murphy (55:04)

Yeah, yeah. But then there's, you know, when you're taking those shortcuts and you're not getting a judicially signed warrant, it becomes an issue.

Mike Yagley (55:13)

So if you think about it this way, if you were in the D.C. area around January 6, 2020 there with your family, you weren't, you weren't near the Capitol, but you were there with your family and you bought some souvenirs or you used a credit card to get into the Smithsonian. Chances are the FBI had a look at you. Yeah, they eliminated you probably quickly, but they were looking at you. And that data was provided willfully by various banks. Did you know, did you authorize it? And that gets into the. Who owns the data? Not really your data. The credit card data isn't yours. Your cell phone data is not yours.

Jack Murphy (55:58)

So let's, let's talk a little bit about how the program evolved from Locomotive to visor. What is visor? What, what was the next incarnation?

Mike Yagley (56:05)

Yep. So Locomotive was. Think about Locomotive as a proof of concept where it was very limited. And that's where I was trying to just demonstrate how this could work as a, as a CAPE capability proved that. And we upgraded it to something called visor, Virtual Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance. Kind of a stick in the face to the SIG enters who didn't believe that this was even possible. So we were doing ISR type work virtually. I was buying the location data. And if you think about mobile location data, at the time, your device was probably giving an event, a location event, once every 12 seconds. So not quite as persistent as a TTL device stuck on the back of a car in terms of like seeing the routes, but pretty close in terms of being able to see, see how people were moving about. And so the program was designed to be an interagency program. JSOC was the primary sponsor, but it became an interagency program where we were selling this data set. We were buying the data sets, and the license for that data gave me rights to make it available to the entire US Government. So I didn't have to have one agency buying it. It was like one purchase. It was very, very efficient and a great deal for the taxpayer. And we just, we created a, basically a government cloud environment where data would come in from our suppliers, we would move it over to a, to a classified cloud environment. And we had at the full. We had seven different agencies participating. They had to fund and they had to pay. But if you think like, here's the budget, everybody had to pitch in. It was, you know, kind of an interagency working group. And, but it was designed to be efficient so that we weren't buying the same ad id 70 different times, which is what, how we're doing it now.

Jack Murphy (58:33)

And I imagine these agencies are all using this ad tech data that you're purchasing in different ways to accomplish different things.

Mike Yagley (58:42)

Absolutely.

Jack Murphy (58:42)

What's sort of like the difference between how like the FBI vs CIA vs JSOC will use these data sets?

Mike Yagley (58:49)

So my first case that I worked for the Bureau. Was Stephen Paddock the Vegas shooter. There was questions about possible transnational terrorism because his wife was Filipino.

Jack Murphy (59:04)

I remember this, traveled to the Philippines.

Mike Yagley (59:08)

And so we did a workup on Steven Paddock.

Jack Murphy (59:12)

He's very, like, opaque. Very kind of like, mysterious opaque.

Mike Yagley (59:17)

I, I, I know that there are a lot of, like, I don't know what his motive. I don't know that. I don't think anybody really does. Yeah, I don't believe that there was a conspiracy because there were Saudis in the hotel. Because there are lots of Saudis in Vegas all the time. Yeah, but I don't mean to stir up your listeners.

Jack Murphy (59:37)

No, no. I mean, I'm interested in, like, what the results.

Mike Yagley (59:40)

So Stephen Paddock. Stephen Paddock had two residents in Vegas to two properties. So we were looking at those, saw no unusual co location, co presence. We would see, like, the UPS delivery guy, the FedEx guy. He had a landscape. We had one device that was showing up at both properties. It was his landscape. It was the guy that cut his grass. But we looked at him hard because that was the only. We're seeing this. He lives in a kind of a, you know, potential high crime area. What's this all about? It was the guy that cuts his grass. This was very early. And so you have Bureau analysts, like, I'm sort of over their shoulder looking at this stuff, and all of a sudden somebody's like, holy. There was a device that they were looking at that had also spent time at Redstone Arsenal where they, where you learn how to make a bomb or, or.

Jack Murphy (60:52)

And it was connected to Paddock in some capacity.

Mike Yagley (60:56)

I was, I was like, this is, this is. If this is what it is. Wait a second. Let's have a look. Look at the date, look at the time. It was your own EOD guy, because now that same device, like, he's in, he was in Texas. Like, is there anything going on in Texas? Yeah, there's a letter bomber. Like, that's your guy. So you have to watch what you're doing because this right. Kind of stuff, like, you're seeing it, you want to find.

Jack Murphy (61:30)

Right.

Mike Yagley (61:31)

Just take a breath. And this is not, there is no, there's no connection here with somebody that's got intimate explosive experience. This is your own technician, your own EOD guy that probably didn't clear the house before the rest of the forensics team came in. So those are the types of, of things. From a law enforcement perspective, ad tech is not the best, it's not the best use of that data because law enforcement will come in and they will say we have an incident that occurred on this date at this time. Show me everything that was there when that happened. And that requires an app to be functioning, to be broadcasting, to be pinging location. It's a very treacherous terrain to try to put a device at a specific location at a specific time. Unlike when you're doing tower dumps, you're getting like a range, right? This is, this is why it's not the best use case for incident resolution and investigation. If you're looking at show me, I've done a lot of like MS.30, it's

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Mike Yagley (64:19)

Sling lets you do that team type work. Show me that type of cohort where they go. What are their patterns of life? No differently if you're looking for it's

Jack Murphy (64:30)

more of a big dad tool.

Mike Yagley (64:32)

It is, it is. Take a big look at the cohort where they live. What are their centers of gravity? What don't we know about where they're going on some kind of regular basis. It's excellent for that type of, for that type of work. But to try to go and like locate a device at a centroid, you know, very difficult to do. And agencies have tried to do it and it's, they've sort of come up like, well, it doesn't work now. It's not the right application for that type of stuff. And then. But on the, on the, on the intelligence side, a lot of, A lot of focus on our own community OPSEC signature management. Help us understand what our risks are, how do we improve. And then in the, in the ISIS days, a lot of targeting there on some, some pretty high value.

Jack Murphy (65:33)

Yeah. So I was going to ask you about that. What was the year that locomotive got started?

Mike Yagley (65:38)

So this was, we're going back 2016. Okay. And it was fully full operational capability was around 2018.

Jack Murphy (65:45)

And so ISIS is a thing at this moment. This is a big priority for the United States government. And I remember someone telling me a story about early on in the war when we went and wiped out the Coruscant group like very quickly with CIA intelligence airstrikes and did the deal. My understanding that was one of the first times that open source intelligence was really used. And it was because there was a bunch of younger analysts in these offices that were like, hey, maybe we can do this and this and that. And sure enough, it worked.

Mike Yagley (66:17)

Yeah. That was where they were tagging pictures. You had, you had.

Jack Murphy (66:22)

They were, they were going after those guys on Facebook.

Mike Yagley (66:25)

Yeah, yeah.

Jack Murphy (66:26)

Pretty funny.

Mike Yagley (66:26)

Yeah.

Jack Murphy (66:30)

So you get it there. 2016, 2018. It's really up and running. Kind of like what are you seeing as far as like the evolution of the programming? Like how are the, the guys boots on the ground kind of take into it.

Mike Yagley (66:44)

So adoption or hey, can we look at, can we get some of that ad tech stuff from, from the operator from the unit level was. We got great feedback on that because I'm giving them the type, I'm giving them like slant information. I've got women, children. Based upon the apps that they're using the times devices.

Jack Murphy (67:06)

Okay.

Mike Yagley (67:06)

You know, not giving names. I don't have names. But I can tell you before you as you are about to assault this compound where the guy cried like a baby, that compound, I can tell you how many women and children there are before you begin at the time you're about to engage, giving you updated information like you've got anywhere between 12 and 18. I was off by one. Non combatants in this compound. I was off by one because one was with him and went down with him as a non combatant. But I'm giving that type of fidelity at that ground level which, you know, you're an operator, you're, you're happy if somebody can tell you if the door opens this way or that way.

Jack Murphy (68:02)

Right, right.

Mike Yagley (68:03)

I'm telling you how many women and children are in this compound you're about to assault.

Jack Murphy (68:09)

So, and I imagine when the operators get ground truth and they go and hit the target and like, wow, this was like very accurate actually that they probably took to it. I was like, yeah.

Mike Yagley (68:19)

I mean it's again, because, you know this, our guys don't want to engage innocent people. They want, they want to know if they need to back off a little bit or give some time for them to get out because that's the type of people they are. They're not going in looking to just wipe.

Jack Murphy (68:42)

So, yeah, I mean if there's no civilians on target, maybe the answer is a JDAM for that one.

Mike Yagley (68:46)

Yeah, yeah. Why? Exactly. But this is the type of thing where, and this is something Americans should know. We have a very capable unit that chose to not pause but just, hey, if there, if there is, if there is information that helps us.

Jack Murphy (69:05)

Yeah.

Mike Yagley (69:06)

Configure how we are assaulting this or that. We need to give the TERP more time on the, on the, on the, the megaphone.

Jack Murphy (69:15)

Yeah.

Mike Yagley (69:16)

Come out or you will be killed. You know, if we need to do that, we're going to do that. We're not just going in guns blazing because you know, there were like four children under the age of four and they all, they all came out and as the non combatants are coming out, they are, they are giving ground truth. They are confirming where, where he is, what he's got and who he's with. So those types of things, we were the. And again, I'm doing this in my highly secure, operating my forward deployed talk in Vienna, Virginia.

Jack Murphy (69:50)

I remember around this time hearing some consternation that using OSINT methods, which I'm guessing that was you, that they had identified hundreds of targets in Syria. And there's a lot of frustration. It was not because of the technology, more the policies side that the guys felt like they're being kind of held back from actual targets. Yeah.

Mike Yagley (70:12)

So, and this is, this is an excellent point from a policy perspective because the people who make policy don't have a clue what really they don't, they're making like we're working on, they're working on, they're working on, you know, how do we, how do we define commercial data from open source data? We're beyond that. Our adversary is well beyond that. So I think if you just look at the way in which TikTok was handled, we just don't have a policy class.

Dan Morgan (70:50)

Yeah.

Jack Murphy (70:50)

I mean, the average age of our members of Congress are almost nursing home ready. No fault to them, everyone ages, but

Mike Yagley (71:00)

they're making, they're, they're doing reels about the, you know, disparaging tick tock on tick tock. It's just, it just doesn't make any sense. But I think that we are in a, the environment, the operating environment is highly technical now. So we, we need people at the policy level who, they don't have to be experts in this, but they have to listen and understand what, what they're dealing with. And I think that by comparison, the

Jack Murphy (71:31)

military average age is very young, which helps, I think, with this sort of thing.

Mike Yagley (71:35)

I will tell you, when I was, when I would be briefing, I would look and if my room were mostly NCOs, I was good. I knew that it was going to be a productive brief. When it wasn't NCOs and there were, there were others in the, in the brief. I knew that it was going to

Jack Murphy (72:00)

be a show with Sharpies on the map.

Mike Yagley (72:04)

And I mean, and it, it never failed. Like, you know, and I, I was never in the military, so I don't do all that, sir. You know, so, like some captain is going to come in and, and start sort of pushing around, pushing his rank, telling me, you know, how these things should be, and I'm like, that's just, that's firstly not a thing, Captain. Secondly, I don't really, you know, where are you going with this? Because you're, you're describing fantasy when this is not fantasy. I've had those moments.

Jack Murphy (72:40)

Yeah. Army officers don't like to be told they're wrong.

Mike Yagley (72:46)

It was, it is a, it is the culture I, I feel for the sergeant majors.

Jack Murphy (72:52)

Thoughts and prayers.

Mike Yagley (72:53)

Yeah. Yeah. Make sure your, your helmet is on forward and your, your nods are, you know, those things that you need to be seeing this way shouldn't be on the face, in the back of your head. But I think that as a, when we think about data, just as a, from a national perspective, we have zero posture in terms of privacy. We have, we have lots of privacy laws on the books. We have a law that's, you know, the do not sell my data to bad guys law. But if you look at what it protects or what it controls, it's like yeah, that might have had some teeth 10 years ago, but today I can be in compliance and still do. Everything that you have legislated is illegal. And I think that that's just because we have people that don't quite understand and don't get into the weeds of this, whereas I don't navel gaze China. But their technocrats understand the value of data because their data does not leave their shore unless a guy like me walks it out within a brown paperback. I mean, that's the truth.

Jack Murphy (74:11)

Yeah.

Mike Yagley (74:11)

There's no reciprocity. They don't participate. We don't. We are not getting WeChat data the way that they're getting Instagram data.

Jack Murphy (74:22)

And I have even, like, I mean, when you find out about hackers that are selling hacked data sets and things like that, and I'm, I'm not in that world, but I mean, I've heard a lot about, like, hack data sets out of Russia, out of Iran, actually haven't heard any out of China, but again, I'm not, That's not my, my area.

Mike Yagley (74:42)

So they'll. The, their laws have teeth.

Jack Murphy (74:47)

Yeah. You're going to the Gulag.

Mike Yagley (74:48)

You're not. You're never going to be seen again.

Jack Murphy (74:50)

Yeah.

Mike Yagley (74:52)

So there, the truth is that there are black markets where you can, you can get some stuff. Some stuff. But that, I mean, that's almost like. We need to have case officers who know how to do that.

Jack Murphy (75:06)

Yeah. Go buy it.

Mike Yagley (75:07)

We need to have Knox who know how to show up at a data conference and do these things.

Jack Murphy (75:12)

It reminds me of when we had Jim Lawler on the show who was big at interdicting terrorists who are trying to buy fissile material and trying to build a nuclear weapon.

Mike Yagley (75:23)

He's famous, infamous.

Jack Murphy (75:24)

And I believe he teaches a whole course. Actually. I'd have to ask Jim about this. I believe he teaches a course teaching intelligence officers how to attain a certain level of technical. Know how to be able to talk to scientists and technical people in foreign countries. And I remember him saying something that, you know, engineers love to tell you about their job and how it works.

Mike Yagley (75:46)

I was just going to say that there's nothing an engineer will not suffer. Somebody who is. Comes from the soft sciences, you know, but to, yeah. To be able to navigate those, those markets, you have to have fluency in that language. You have to, you have to be able to know the difference between, you know.

Jack Murphy (76:06)

Yeah, I wouldn't.

Mike Yagley (76:08)

And, and that's, and that's important. And that's kind of that skill set. Who was The. You know, we need PhDs who can win a bar fight, right? Yeah, yeah, whoever that.

Jack Murphy (76:19)

Donovan.

Mike Yagley (76:20)

Donovan. Yes. We need PhDs who can win a bar fight and write a little bit of code.

Jack Murphy (76:27)

It's also interesting, I think, this combination of high tech and low tech that we've kind of touched on a little bit. But, you know, using this ad tech and. And all the other cool things, we have to get data. But then it sounds like in some cases at least, that's really providing a vector to put a guy on the ground and do that terminal guidance. Not necessarily. It's a lethal operation. Might be an intelligence operation. But I mean, do you see that kind of being like the future of intelligence work?

Mike Yagley (76:58)

I think it's a component. It's hard to say. I think all of this, when we think about a target and how we develop that target, I think that the data that is available, whether it's. And this could even be in sort of target spotting. Everything should run through a first level. You know, what, what do we know? What can we understand about the motives, intentions, the Phil. The philosophy of this individual or group of individuals before we even engage, before we do the bump. Before we engage. Right, right, right. Or if we're going. If we've already identified this person and we need to have his good friend be. Appear, how do we align our. Our people with this target so that we're creep that relationship? It's almost like a dating app where. Right. The algorithm has said you two are a match. I. When I was needing to sort of demonstrate value. So I'm a hockey player playing men's leagues around D.C. and just as a test, I wanted to see if anybody from the Russian embassy plays in men's league hockey. And sure enough, I find three Russians from the Russian embassy who go to my rink to. To do something called Lunch puck. It's like 12 o', clock, you just go out and you split up everybody and you just sort of play. Right. Lunch Puck. And they're at my rink, so. And I know that they're there, you know, a couple times a week. I don't. It's sporadic. Sometimes it's a Monday, sometimes it's a Thursday. So I went for three days. And on the second day, I'm in the locker room with three Russians from the embassy putting on our skates. And I'm like, are you guys Russian? You know, and I. You could smell the cigarette smoke before they even got into the locker room. But here I am there to. To be at that point in time where they are right.

Jack Murphy (79:31)

The technology helps.

Mike Yagley (79:32)

Technology put you in the room. Put me who? And I know how to put on hockey equipment. I know how to lace my skates. I, I know how to talk in the locker room. Like I right there was no, you know, like who is this guy with all the new equipment who can't skate, who just so happens to be, you know, really interested in me being Russian. I had been to Moscow playing hockey, so I was, I was able to be very conversational, build rapport. But I knew they were going to be there. It only took me two days.

Jack Murphy (80:02)

No, that, that exactly answers the question that I was asking. That combination of how high tech and

Mike Yagley (80:06)

low tech and it's, it's, you know, why, why wouldn't we want to try to do that sort of matchmaking?

Jack Murphy (80:12)

Yeah, why wouldn't you use the full breadth of our capabilities that we've developed

Mike Yagley (80:16)

and those are the kinds of things that we can look at, you know, the, the entire cadre of, of case officers. And we need something, somebody with specific skill, somebody that's got a double E or a chemical in, you know, he's got a chemical degree, electrical engineer, a dub. You know, it's, we need, we need that type of person to go and let's be able to put them into the mix right Faster and not wait for, or just do it based upon. Well, you know, now he's going off to this post and you know, he's has, there's no, there's no connectivity to who were, who were are going after. That's the kind of thing that all this data is really good to get us ahead of the game.

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Jack Murphy (84:40)

Back to the serious stuff. Before we move on, what were your observations as that campaign really got up and running? And the Pfizer program got up and running too.

Mike Yagley (84:54)

So I will. This. I don't know if this is answering your question, but. So I was. What do we call it? Compound Delta?

Jack Murphy (85:02)

Sure.

Mike Yagley (85:03)

So I'm down in one of the bays where, you know, like, not quite the team room, but like, where the squadron is, you know, all of the laddering and, you know, it's like their garage. And I'm standing on an ISIS flag. And one of the operators who had just, you know, they were. He's like, we won the war. And I'm like, did this. It's like, yep. Just. We just brought that back. And I'm like, okay. Like, we just won the. We just won the war. And it was a few months later that we had, you know, announced that we'd basically won the war.

Jack Murphy (85:41)

But Rocco fell and all that.

Mike Yagley (85:43)

Yeah, all of them. Yeah, yeah. That group just had just rolled in. And I'm like, standing on this black ISIS flag. I. I didn't even realize that I was. But those are the types of things.

Jack Murphy (85:57)

Like, you're like, yeah. Holy.

Mike Yagley (86:00)

You know, this. What the contribution, you know, did it. Was the contribution. Did it help? I think so. It made it so that we had more awareness of who we were going up against.

Jack Murphy (86:17)

The other thing, I wanted to ask you about that too. And I know ultimately it's the jags that have to look at all this stuff from a legal perspective. I was wondering if there's any issues with, like, title authorities or if it ever came up like, we're using civilian data for military targeting. I remember I heard a story once that the PsyOps guys wanted to do. Do a campaign in Syria using targeted Facebook ads. So we're going to target people specifically in this part of Syria with our PSYOP virtual leaflets, so to speak. And it got shut down. They wouldn't let them do it because they're like, the perception. When it went up, I guess it got briefed to Congress at one point, and they said something like, they thought they were going to hack Facebook.

Mike Yagley (87:03)

They're like, I'm. I'm familiar with.

Jack Murphy (87:04)

Okay, so you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Mike Yagley (87:06)

Yep. So the first. First question. So. Yep, we did. There was a jag, and I just overwhelmed him with.

Jack Murphy (87:17)

Right. And this is all unprecedented that he

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Mike Yagley (87:21)

He just. He was just like, make the man stop sign off. I mean, I. It was. It was. And he just wanted to you know, his. He was not trying to re litigate the constitution of the United States. He just, he was like, what's.

Jack Murphy (87:37)

Because it's overseas, I imagine it's fairly straightforward.

Mike Yagley (87:41)

It was much. I will tell you the, the. Let me answer your question. With the FBI, seventh floor shut us down. Like I get the call from the special agent who's six foot five, who's like, nope. Terminate US Deep commission our licenses. We've been deactivated because they feel there's legal. Because of the legal issues. Yep. And they're still, they still don't. Trying to figure it out. Have, have fidelity around that which, you know, so that did happen. It was like the rug got, you know, pulled right out from underneath us. We were in the middle of a bunch of stuff and they got shut down. Like, you are done. You are not to do this anymore. So not so much on the, on the DoD side. Only when we're looking at their own people is there a little bit of issue. Right. And I'm like, you know what? I'm not looking at anybody in particular. I am not looking at pii. I am looking at this constellation of cohorts for force protection. For force protection. Force Pro. Like that's absolutely the right, the right use case. But nothing about what we're doing is I'm gonna, you know, you're not looking

Jack Murphy (88:57)

up the guy's porn habits.

Mike Yagley (88:59)

Not, not for those, not for those use cases. That's. That's on the, that's for the, on the private side, I would do that. But on the DoD side, particularly around the ISIS time frame, that was not, that was not a big, you know, friction point. No. But again, credit to the command force, you know, looking at this and saying this is great, but this is not how he's describing this dot on the map. That is not, you know, authorization to engage. Right. And that was. And, and yeah, you need more. I. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. You need to correlate in other things, but other ints. If that gives us. Hey, we're gonna go and it's a lead. TFO is going to go and, and build a constellation of sensors to, you know, monitor that place. Then mission. Mission accomplished. Like we gave you a target that you didn't know about.

Jack Murphy (89:57)

Yeah, hell yeah.

Mike Yagley (90:00)

And so yeah, the, A lot of, A lot of really good work with TFO on this too. They, they, they were all in aggressive. They got it like it was to the point, like are we still playing around these stupid ttl like get the guy to get that guy with the funny hair to come in and, you know, just stop it. So a lot of those types of conversations down at Belvoir.

Jack Murphy (90:25)

And did you, you have some visibility on the Psyops stuff that I was

Mike Yagley (90:29)

mentioning just in terms of. They were. So it's very difficult to deploy an advertisement and ad impression to 10 devices, 20 devices. You need to be able to do it to a thousand in order for it to run through the system. And so I was just trying to explain to them, like unless you are,

Jack Murphy (90:59)

it's a mass blast, unless you have,

Mike Yagley (91:01)

you know, some infrared gun where you're gonna like point it and shoot the ad. This is you, you just need to open up the aperture a little bit. But trying to put, trying to deploy an ad to a very targeted group is, is difficult to even know that you were, that you accomplished that target set because it just, you know, if you're, if you're, you have to understand how that ad goes from the supply to the demand side and those connections. And it's not just place an ad on.

Jack Murphy (91:38)

The concern, of course, is always that it's lawful for us to use psyops on our adversaries, but we don't want to subject the American public even inadvertently. Because if you're running a Psyop campaign on the Internet, well, presumably anybody can access that.

Mike Yagley (91:54)

Right.

Jack Murphy (91:55)

And in my view, my, I guess you could call it my opinion for now, I think that's what happened with President Trump talking about the discombobulator ray in Venezuela. I think that might have been some information that we introduced into the area of operations.

Mike Yagley (92:12)

Possibly.

Jack Murphy (92:13)

Yeah. But when we talk about like running a campaign like that on Facebook, I mean you can, I understand it's a shotgun blast, but it's a geographical area. Like no one in the United States is gonna see it.

Mike Yagley (92:25)

Right. You can target it that way. What you're really trying to, when you're developing the target, the audience, it's the contextual signals first and then sort of the location second. Because a campaign just based purely on location, because there's a lot of bleed over because you're, you're not, there's no way to be absolutely precise that you're not exceeding.

Jack Murphy (92:59)

But I mean, it's the same. And I mean, I understand, like you have to make this make sense for policymakers, but I mean, when you do a leaflet drop, it's not, not precise,

Mike Yagley (93:09)

which is again, it's like, well, we can't this just be like a leaflet drop where we're, you know, we're going to fly the C130 over and it's, we're just going to push it out over and it's, it's, it's, it just doesn't work that way.

Jack Murphy (93:23)

Yeah.

Mike Yagley (93:24)

You know, you know, if you, if you look at the, the supposition about the Russian hacking of Facebook ads where they spent, you know, 250000 bucks and there were like 10 impressions and the impressions, if you look at the actual ad, I don't know that even the dumbest American would have been fooled or hoodwinked into thinking, you know, that the ad was real. So when you do these things, it

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Jack Murphy (95:01)

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Mike Yagley (95:02)

reveal for their dog. No, no, no, no. This is a breed reveal. Oh. So yeah, they're finding out the breed

Ryan Seacrest (95:09)

of the puppy they're rescuing.

Mike Yagley (95:10)

So they could just be spending all their money on like pet insurance. Instead we got lemonade for Rosco and it covered for vaccines.

Ryan Seacrest (95:16)

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Mike Yagley (95:23)

What do you think beige confetti means?

Ryan Seacrest (95:26)

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Jack Murphy (95:28)

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Mike Yagley (95:31)

has to look and feel like a real ad.

Jack Murphy (95:34)

Right?

Mike Yagley (95:34)

Right. And the moderation teams at Meta and the platforms are looking for. Okay, who are you? What are you advertising? Have you advertised before? They're, they're being very Careful about suppressing what is not legitimate advertising.

Jack Murphy (95:54)

So do you think they've gotten good at or do they, these social media companies, try to suppress like foreign disinformation campaigns that are coming into the United States? Like that became a big issue after 2016.

Mike Yagley (96:07)

I don't. Again, if. So, if, if the model has been trained to be able to recognize that something is clearly foreign disinformation and it can suppress it, okay. It has to look like something that it's seen before. But when it comes in from a new channel or the words are different or the configuration is different and it looks legitimate, how do you, how do you suppress that at scale? That's very difficult to do. And if it's being, if it's been amplified 10,000 times, you know, how do you, how do you stop that? I think they, frankly, I think they put a lot of lip service to it, that they're, you know, they're moderation teams and they're looking. But I just don't, I just don't know how they can be 100% confident that they are impervious. Yeah, that kind of stuff. I don't. Because it, at some point the disinfect, the real information gets moderated out. We've seen that. Right, right. Again, I think that's a slippery slope too. When you start trying to arbitrate what's real, what's not letting have some trust in your, in your users. You don't, we don't all need to

Jack Murphy (97:29)

be protected from, you know, I don't know, man. I, When I log on to Facebook, I see the old folks flipping out over clearly AI generated pictures.

Mike Yagley (97:39)

That's a pretty. You shouldn't be logging into Facebook. I don't.

Jack Murphy (97:42)

Well, yeah, you're right, but presumably hundreds or tens of millions of people do.

Mike Yagley (97:48)

I, I, this is, this is one of those. I guess I would hear the mental model that I attach to that is. I wonder if they had these types of conversations back when the printing press became a thing and Ben Franklin under his pseudo name was pushing out shitposts because he could, you know, was there a, you know, a moderation team sitting in, you know, Philadelphia trying to figure out how to shut him down.

Jack Murphy (98:18)

I'm sure there was. King George was trying to shut that down probably.

Mike Yagley (98:22)

So I just, I think that this is one of those things that, you know, it's just, it's going to be one of the things we have to deal with. Propaganda is not new, you know, and we should probably, as a country maybe moderate our indignation over foreign meddling.

Jack Murphy (98:46)

Yeah.

Mike Yagley (98:46)

Unless we're going to stop foreign meddling.

Jack Murphy (98:51)

Yeah, the game is the game. But I do expect the United States government to proactively fight against, you know, enemy propaganda.

Mike Yagley (98:58)

I think so. I think so. So you ever done a. I was, I was trying to figure out the origination of Death to America. You know the Iranian chants. Like, where did that, when did they just decide to start chanting?

Jack Murphy (99:19)

Was it 79 or 80?

Mike Yagley (99:21)

Well, goes back farther than that.

Jack Murphy (99:23)

Okay.

Mike Yagley (99:25)

If you think about it, goes back to 52, 53, when we, when Kermit Roosevelt, Kermit's coup, when we British Petroleum was like, hey, the President, the duly elected president of Iran wants to nationalize oil fields. How dare he. And you guys need to do something about it. And the Dulles brothers snapped into action, sent Kermit over and overthrew the government, giving Iran the Shah, which then over 20 plus years created this antipathy towards the United States because you wouldn't want, even if you wouldn't want some foreign government picking and choosing your leader. It would piss me off too. So, you know, the, the influence, the campaigns and, and, and if you think about the way that that influence campaign was lodged, but going back to, you know, the 50s, there wasn't, it wasn't technical, but surely the information, the disinformation, you know, allegations of corruption and all sorts of things to dislodge a duly elected president from his post. Yeah. Pisses some people off, I think. So anyway, that was a. I went off, I went offline there. It's all right.

Ryan Seacrest (100:57)

It's topical.

Jack Murphy (100:58)

It's topical to world events right now. I guess the other thing I'd like to swing back a little bit to is like the signature reduction, I guess is what we'd call it the defensive aspects. And what are you able to say about kind of where we are today and helping our clandestine personnel remain? Wayne does find.

Mike Yagley (101:20)

So that is the million dollar question. So I think that, I think we still have a ways to go in understanding that going black isn't what it used to be. And accepting the constraints of the world we live in, the $8 trillion duopoly, the trillion dollar advertising economy, all providing the primitives for UTs that go beyond just observing us. So if you are, if your premise is I need to operate without being observed, I don't know, go. I don't. You're going to be operating in the jungle. I don't know, you're not going to be operating anywhere, you know, in a, in, in a city in a city. So accept that universal truth that it is no longer about trying to evade observation. It is. It is the model, that behavioral model that you need to worry about. And there are things that we can do that are real and not hocus pocus, like playing with your phone, configuring your phone to at least minimize or mitigate some of that data. That's revealing what we're. What our intentions are. But it's almost like we treated UTs or signatures, almost like IEDs, where we went and stood up the IED defeat organization Jido and spent $10 billion to discover that we just need more dogs. This is not something to defeat. It's something to operate within. And understanding how to operate within means how do I operate where I have a phone, because that's normal. But I am going to recognize that the thresholds of my actions under the umbrella of AI makes it far easier for an adversary to intervene, as opposed to this episodic surveillance. So that goes back to my point, like data is it all starts with the device. It starts with the device that you carry every day to the soccer game, to the headquarters, whatever you're doing, because that is revealing who you are. And you're not, but you're not operational. So it starts. It starts there with the device that you carry every day as a means of pushing back against the machine and being able to maneuver, whether it's operational or just as a person, without your intention being predictable at every moment based upon the orientation of your. Your phone or the battery level of your phone. So I'm starting to see a little bit of daylight, like, all right, we're not the. We're not the defeat. We're not trying to defeat this anymore. How do we operate within it? How do we understand what a cohort's pattern of life is when you're under state cover? What is. What is this? What does a real estate department person look like when they are in that country? Where do they go? Where don't they go? How do we model ourselves after that to better operate below that radar?

Jack Murphy (105:29)

You know, the way we traditionally have taught case officers when they go abroad is obviously not to stand out, not to do anything that looks suspicious at all. You're trying to blend in with sort of the cultural baseline. Do we now have to do that electronically as well?

Mike Yagley (105:46)

Yes, 100%.

Jack Murphy (105:47)

Yeah.

Mike Yagley (105:47)

Yep. That is. And. And again, recognizing that a case officer or somebody who's in a denied hostile environment, they've only got so many things that they can be thinking about and So I don't want them worried about their, their digital signature operate. Behave as you normally would. And that is part of your digital signature management. Because there's not a tool that you can use. There's, you know, everything must be original and defendable in terms of authenticity. Authenticity, yeah, because it's that the challenge in the digital signature management is it's a metadata field that you don't even know about. There are thousands of them that indicate that slight deviation from everybody else. Is that declaring you a spy? Not necessarily. It's just declaring that you're anomalous compared to everybody else. So, you know, that involves, you know, when you're doing your. When you're doing your area of familiarization, like understand where Americans go for dinner and then understand where. If you need to have a meeting with somebody, where does that intersect? Where can you be? Right. And that is digital casing that is very important to do that. All of this data helps us understand where. Where can we operate without it triggering the Skynet.

Jack Murphy (107:37)

It can be a help and a hindrance both at the same.

Mike Yagley (107:39)

We have to think about it that way until we start looking at it from the reclaiming initiative as opposed to being afraid of it being defensive. Like you can't advance anything when you're constantly playing defense.

Jack Murphy (107:53)

Yeah, I can't have my meetings because of this.

Mike Yagley (107:55)

I'm gonna just wait for walk ins. Yeah, okay. I guess so. I guess that'll work. But don't you want to be out and how do we, how do we make it so that you can do that without you feeling like you, you know, you have to invoke all sorts of new tradecraft.

Jack Murphy (108:15)

I, I was thinking about this a little yesterday as a. For something I was writing. I mean, do you think the 1990s and the early 2000s will kind of be looked back at? Is sort of like a golden era of intelligence gathering that we had the technology but no one else did.

Mike Yagley (108:31)

I think it's a good lesson in. Because look at where we are now. We're kind of. We stopped modernizing because the Cold war dividend made it such that we didn't have to be on the tip of the spear. And look what happened. So this is one of those things at sort of the headquarters level. Unless you are like, we should expect our intelligence agencies to be on the absolute cutting edge. And in many. Sometimes, like some of the things that we do are amazing. Like, you just. You can't make it up. It is so good. It just needs to be sort of culturally on the Cutting edge. I shouldn't be explaining to a case officer of 10 years that the flashlight app made by a Chinese, you know, university does not need to know your location. You should click that off.

Jack Murphy (109:35)

And nowadays you still do consulting with the US Government?

Mike Yagley (109:38)

I do mostly on the training side and the training curve. You know, the programs of instruction have gone from sort of these exhaustive dumps on what is ad tech to how do we, how do we maneuver and manage it. Here are some solutions to minimizing the data that you are radiating individually. How do you think about that in terms of your career? And so we're starting to, there's starting to be some acceptance that it's not just awareness and admiring the problem and calling it progress. It's how do we, how do we move forward? Because aggressively, we're not going back to a pre uts environment. Those days are, those days are gone. This is the operating environment. And you know, like the people that were working in Moscow, they figured it out when. And they came up with a whole new tradecraft program called Moscow Rules and had dummies in the passenger seat of their car that they could pop up when, yeah, they needed to, you know, they had a little gap, put up the jack in the box, one guy dumps out. You know, the surveillance team doesn't know the difference. We need to be thinking in terms like that and we can do that. And I think that, you know, there's all sorts of things that we can do that are on that bleeding edge that just give us that operational maneuverability or that ability to reclaim some initiative and not stick out like a sore thumb, you know, as someone who's carrying around some flip phone. And that's. So that's the, that's, I think, the curve or that's where we're moving towards

Jack Murphy (111:36)

normalization of, of this.

Mike Yagley (111:38)

Yeah, but again, it's, it's like trying to push a rock uphill and it, there needs to be buy in at the, at the, at the headquarters account or. Yeah, yeah, all right. We're not calling it an existential threat anymore. We are moving forward. Figure it out. What do you need? How do we do, how do we deal with this? Because this isn't going away and our business is, we are in the people business. So, you know, those. But, but just, you know, think about if you, if you deconstruct that, that, that pipeline of intelligence work or operational work, you know, figure out where, where these types of data sets enhance de risk, you know, take out some slack in the chain like all Right. We don't need to go and do this. We don't need to put slack. Somebody, you know, set aside watching a play. We can, we can watch it virtually and understand what's going on there. We need to be thinking in terms of how would an advertiser do this? And so that's sort of the, the meat of my, of my instruction is here's what the advertising community is doing. If we, if we look at this from a. Here's where the, here's where the future is for you. They're laying it, they're laying the map out for you as, as we speak. You need to, you need to be part of that, part of that conversation, part of that solution. And it's, it is data inference, probabilistic modeling, allocation of resources and attention. It's the analog to that is you're going through customs in a foreign country and you're, there's something about you where you get pulled into secondary. What did you do to get pulled into secondary from the data perspective, how are you getting pulled into an allocation of resource that is now going to look more deeply at you? Right. Whereas, you know, the model was looking at 10 million people, nothing to see here until that one outlier. And that's where UTS becomes sort of an action platform, not so much a event reconstruction capability. And that's, that's the future.

Jack Murphy (114:17)

Yeah, the future is going to be wild.

Mike Yagley (114:20)

But all these things are thing, you know, everything that I'm saying is I would give this advice to my next door neighbor.

Jack Murphy (114:25)

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Yagley (114:26)

This is not, you know, think about privacy, the philosophy of privacy as a more dignified, you know, way to live. It's not something that's weird, it's not something that's weird. It's not something that's limited to or specific to, you know, the espionage business or the operational business. It is just a lifestyle choice.

Jack Murphy (114:48)

So some of the other stuff you're working on, tell us about. You sit on the board of directors of Unplugged. Unplugged, yeah.

Mike Yagley (114:54)

Yep. So Unplugged is a, is a privacy phone. It is a proprietary hardware operating system architecture. So there is a proprietary VPN that does everything that I've just been talking about in terms of mitigating the amount of data that's flowing off of your device. It is, it is. And if we think about sort of the consumer bolt on privacy tools, VPNs or the configuration toggles, that does not execute at the, at the operating system level. So an app on your phone has wide latitude to go and collect. The unplugged phone intervenes in that data collection and gives the user the capability.

Jack Murphy (115:43)

Like you were saying, Apple only has two toggles.

Mike Yagley (115:46)

This phone, you know, if you, if you carry around an iPhone, just go to your, go to privacy and security and there's a bunch of security settings like access to your camera, microphone, things like that. But the privacy settings in Android is, is pretty much the same way. The privacy settings are your ad ID and location data. The unplugged phone is taking the entire surface of the device that an app can interrogate and collect. Encrypt transmit is intervening in that process because it has system level authority and control. You don't have that with an iPhone.

Jack Murphy (116:30)

And is this built off of an Android system?

Mike Yagley (116:33)

So it is, it. The hardware feels like an Android device, but the operating system is, is, it is entirely proprietary built hardware software built for privacy. Which again the only way to mitigate or to intervene in the, in the X fill of data requires that system level control, that system level authority. Because you know when you install an app on your phone, the operating system iOS or Android does not have authority over what that app does. It is not overseeing whether that app is complying with policy. It is merely hosting that app. And that's a problem. Apps collect far more than they need to for functionality.

Jack Murphy (117:28)

I think there's going to be a tremendous emerging market for a product like that. Last night I was reading a newsletter that's printed by what's called the Luddite Dispatch is the name of the newsletter. And I think it's a bunch of kids at NYU and Columbia. But they're technology skeptical. They're not anti technology necessarily but they're like the imposition of all these technologies into our lives is making our lives worse rather than better at this point. And so we need to like pull a little back. Like we're not against like clean drinking water and things like that. But you know, we need to limit some of these things. And it sounds like that's exactly what this phone does.

Mike Yagley (118:09)

It is all of the apps that you would normally want to use still function. The intervention piece where the app is trying to send data, the app is still sending the essential data, but the data that it doesn't need is sort of zeroed out. So the app still is seeing is functional, just killing the adware in the background, just mitigating that flow to the ad tech, to the, to the monetization citadels that apps depend upon in order to be relevant. And so you Know, is it a maximalist solution? Am I sitting here saying this is going to 100% protect you from commercial. Anybody who says that is full of shit. But minimizing intervening, having some control is the first step. And you know, like if I. You listen to sort of the ad reads of VPNs. All a VPN is doing is changing the route of your traffic. Right. And the architecture of an app. You ever open up Uber while you're running a VPN and Uber knows exactly where you are because the VPNs are not operating at that, at that app level.

Jack Murphy (119:37)

So not quite as protected as you think.

Mike Yagley (119:39)

Not quite as protected. So these bolt on solutions, I think they're all great, you should definitely use them. But in the meantime, if you are, if you really are thinking about this. And I only arrived it because I was getting the question that I kept getting. How do I, how do I get off of commercial data? How? Like how do I, how do I do this? And sort of going to a first principles, how do I. Where does it all start? And it's these apps that. Yeah, you install it, that installation gives it permissions and it's like, yeah, pulling that surface. And the way in which this has become even more sort of acute. When Apple released its privacy initiative, I think it was iOS 14 a couple years ago, where they gave the users the option to suppress the ad id. It was a big deal. The monetization community, they said, okay, we don't get the ad, we don't get the stable identifier anymore. We'll go develop new ones. We don't get precise GPS anymore, we'll go infer location other ways. So they just sort of pivoted. Everybody's, you know, thinking, oh, I'm private, I've selected these things. The apps haven't. Yeah, haven't gone away.

Jack Murphy (121:06)

Like you said, you're not going to defeat it.

Mike Yagley (121:08)

Not going to defeat it.

Jack Murphy (121:09)

And you're working on a book too.

Mike Yagley (121:11)

I am. It's called the Quantum Signature and it is, it's one, it's the, the intent behind it is to take all of the technology things that sort of are, are introduced in, in sort of fiction, but to apply the, what is really going on in a, in a story that's readable and not just another book about surveillance capitalism.

Jack Murphy (121:39)

So it's going to be like a

Mike Yagley (121:40)

novel about, it's going to be real. Everything that.

Ryan Seacrest (121:43)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is stock up Savings time now through March 31st spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tax to earn on eligible items from Smart Water, Healthy Choice, Continental, arrowhead, Red Bull, St James, Tillamook and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. You shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

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Spinquest Disclaimer Voice (122:37)

Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

Podcast Host Interviewer (122:46)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi Dan.

Dan Morgan (122:49)

Hey. How's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (122:50)

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (122:54)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is a America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (123:00)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion one 20 billion is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (123:09)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 2223 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (123:21)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (123:21)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan, what would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (123:26)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529. From your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247365 wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (123:36)

Dan Morgan from Morgan Morgan, America's large injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (123:41)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you

Mike Yagley (123:44)

in it is a real thing but it's the intent is that readers will be able to connect to it because it's things that are happening to them. Right. How I spy on terrorists, traitors and you is the subtitle. So that'll come out in June. Oh, cool. Of this year.

Jack Murphy (124:05)

Awesome.

Mike Yagley (124:06)

So you know how it goes.

Jack Murphy (124:08)

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Seacrest (124:08)

No.

Jack Murphy (124:08)

My book's coming out in June too. Okay, I'll give you a copy.

Ryan Seacrest (124:11)

All right.

Jack Murphy (124:12)

If you want.

Mike Yagley (124:12)

Cool. Absolutely.

Jack Murphy (124:13)

Is there anything else we haven't talked about that you'd really like to touch upon?

Mike Yagley (124:21)

Privacy is normal. Everybody should think privacy, not just operators. It's worth. It's worth investing in for the person

Jack Murphy (124:31)

out there that really is thinking, like, I've got nothing to hide. I mean, what would you tell them, like, why your privacy is important? I mean, I guess this entire interview we've talked about this a bit.

Mike Yagley (124:42)

I mean, so my, my first reply to them is, you assume you know who's looking and maybe you have nothing to hide today, but you don't know who's going to be looking in 10 years.

Jack Murphy (124:53)

Right, right.

Mike Yagley (124:54)

So. And what's in it for you to have? What's the benefit?

Jack Murphy (125:00)

Because there's criminals and stuff looking also.

Mike Yagley (125:02)

Just. You just don't know. It's. It's like you have keys to your house, you lock your door. You live in a very small, safe neighborhood, but you still lock your door. That is about access. Privacy is about access. There are some things that you just should maintain as something that is not between you and companies you've never heard about. Right. And Phil, I mean, if you, if you look at Judge Brandeis wrote the Right to be Left Alone. It was an article that he wrote for the Harvard Law Review after his law partner, the paparazzi, invaded his law partner's daughter's wedding. And this became landmark. It's basically the basis for a lot of our privacy laws written in 50s 40s. You go back and it could have been written today just in terms of the risks that he was seeing. And that I think is, you know, the more things we think we're experiencing everything for the first time. Yeah, yeah. It's all, it's all. We've all seen it before. I had a reason to watch Rewatch the Matrix the other day, and Lawrence Fishburne is. He should be like the spokesperson for privacy because both in the Matrix and in John Wick where he's using pigeons to communicate because he doesn't trust the Internet. If you think about just the sort of the prescience of that movie in 1999 in terms of data privacy, you know, the. The big machine in the sky. Like, okay, I don't know that they may be doing all sorts of acrobatic moves, but the rest of everything that they've described is pretty spot on.

Jack Murphy (127:12)

Yeah, yeah. The movie works, I think, real well as, like a metaphor. Not that we're living in A virtual world, but, but rather that, like, our reality is crafted by these massive institutions all around us all the time.

Mike Yagley (127:25)

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think I just, it's. Am I, do I, do I gain anything by saying no to that? I don't know. But I certainly don't need to just be a sheep to the eye of Tim Cook and Sergey Brin. Like, I don't need to be there. They're ones and zero. They're one and zero. I won't, I won't do that. Yeah. And that's, and that's, that is the, that's the path to operational initiative. Privacy is. Privacy is now sort of like the first pillar of tradecraft. You come in, you start out. Do you want to broadcast to everybody that you've just joined the CIA?

Jack Murphy (128:11)

Right, right.

Mike Yagley (128:12)

Probably want to, you know, think about that, because in 10 years, it'll matter that you posted something, you know, a picture of you and the recruiter at the, at the recruiting fair with the CIA logo in the background with your thumb up. Like, probably, you know, that's going to come back and get you. So, anyway. But no, I appreciate you having me on. It's great.

Jack Murphy (128:34)

Yeah, thanks for doing it. I think this is like a very unique perspective and get people thinking a little bit outside the box.

Mike Yagley (128:40)

Hope so.

Jack Murphy (128:41)

Yeah.

Mike Yagley (128:41)

Hope so.

Jack Murphy (128:43)

You have any websites or anything you want to direct people to places where they can find you on LinkedIn?

Mike Yagley (128:49)

I'm on LinkedIn.

Jack Murphy (128:50)

Okay. Find you on TikTok. You have a tick tock?

Mike Yagley (128:53)

Yeah, you find me on TikTok. Exactly. Other than that, I, I am, other than, you know, just googling my name, but you can, you can get to me on, on LinkedIn. And that's, that's where I, that's where I spend most of my social media.

Jack Murphy (129:11)

All right.

Mike Yagley (129:12)

Investment.

Jack Murphy (129:12)

Cool.

Mike Yagley (129:13)

So.

Jack Murphy (129:14)

Oh, yeah, thank you. Thanks again, Mike. Appreciate it. Thank you and everyone out there. We will see you next time. Thanks for joining us. Hey, guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House podcast, the Eyes on podcast, and the High side news outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week, it's going to come into your inbox and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes on and the Team House and whatever's topical or current on the High side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox and it will have you know the greatest hits of that week.

Mike Yagley (130:04)

It's really good checking it out.

Jack Murphy (130:07)

The website for it is teamhouse podcast.kit.com join teamhousepodcast kit.com join go there and you enter into your email list or you enter your email into the little thing on the website and you're good to go and that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support and hope you'll consider signing up. The link will also be down in the description if you're looking for it there.

Mike Yagley (130:35)

And that's Teamhousepodcast Kitkit Kilo India tango.com join

Ryan Seacrest (130:47)

hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keebler, Doritos, all M&M's, Drumstick, Altshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

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Podcast Host Interviewer (131:50)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi Dan.

Dan Morgan (131:53)

Hey, how's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (131:54)

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (131:57)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (132:04)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion won. 20 million is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (132:12)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (132:25)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (132:25)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan. What would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (132:30)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247365.

Mike Yagley (132:40)

Wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (132:40)

Dan Morgan from Morgan Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (132:44)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Ryan Seacrest (132:54)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tax to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keebler, Doritos, all M&M's, Drumstick, Altshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

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Spinquest Disclaimer Voice (133:49)

Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

Podcast Host Interviewer (133:57)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan.

Dan Morgan (134:00)

Hey, how's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (134:01)

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (134:04)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (134:11)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion won. 20 billion is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (134:19)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (134:32)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (134:32)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan?

Mike Yagley (134:35)

What?

Podcast Host Interviewer (134:35)

What would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (134:37)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365.

Mike Yagley (134:47)

Wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (134:47)

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (134:52)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Ryan Seacrest (135:02)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest. For Albertsons and Safeway it is. Stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times of points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keebler, Doritos, all M&M's, drumstick, outshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

Spinquest Advertiser (135:35)

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E-S-T.com Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

Podcast Host Interviewer (136:06)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan.

Dan Morgan (136:09)

Hey, how's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (136:10)

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (136:13)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is is America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (136:20)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion. 120 billion is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (136:28)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (136:41)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (136:41)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (136:46)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365.

Mike Yagley (136:56)

Wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (136:56)

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (137:01)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near.

Ryan Seacrest (137:12)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway it is. Stock up Savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tax to earn on eligible items from Smart Water, Healthy Choice, Continental, arrowhead, Red Bull, St James, Tillamook and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

Spinquest Advertiser (137:44)

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Podcast Host Interviewer (138:15)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan.

Dan Morgan (138:18)

Hey, how's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (138:19)

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (138:23)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (138:29)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion won. 20 million is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (138:37)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (138:50)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (138:50)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (138:55)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 24, 7 365.

Mike Yagley (139:05)

Wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (139:05)

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's large injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (139:10)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Ryan Seacrest (139:21)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is Stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keebler, Doritos, all M&M's, Drumstick, Altshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event Long savings stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

Spinquest Advertiser (139:54)

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Spinquest Disclaimer Voice (140:13)

Q U S T.com Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

Podcast Host Interviewer (140:25)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the podcast. Say hi Dan.

Dan Morgan (140:28)

Hey, how's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (140:29)

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (140:32)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (140:39)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion won. 20 billion is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (140:47)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (141:00)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (141:00)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (141:05)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247365 wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (141:15)

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (141:19)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Ryan Seacrest (141:29)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tax to earn on eligible items from Smart Water, Healthy Choice, Continental, arrowhead, Red Bull, St James, Tillamook and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save, even enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

Spinquest Advertiser (142:01)

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Spinquest Disclaimer Voice (142:21)

Q U-E-S-T.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino. Voidware prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

Podcast Host Interviewer (142:32)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan.

Dan Morgan (142:35)

Hey, how's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (142:36)

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (142:40)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Mortgage Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (142:46)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion. 120 billion is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (142:54)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (143:07)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (143:07)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (143:12)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365.

Mike Yagley (143:22)

Wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (143:22)

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's large injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (143:27)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Ryan Seacrest (143:36)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times of points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keebler, Doritos, all M&M's, Drumstick, Altshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

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Podcast Host Interviewer (144:39)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi Dan.

Dan Morgan (144:42)

Hey, how's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (144:43)

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (144:46)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (144:53)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently. It said 20 billion one. 20 billion is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (145:01)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (145:14)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (145:14)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (145:19)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365.

Mike Yagley (145:29)

Wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (145:29)

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (145:34)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Ryan Seacrest (145:43)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Goldfish, Keebler, Doritos, all M&M's, drumstick, outshine and Kellogg's. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

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Podcast Host Interviewer (146:47)

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi Dan.

Dan Morgan (146:50)

Hey, how's it going today?

Podcast Host Interviewer (146:51)

It's going good man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Dan Morgan (146:54)

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

Podcast Host Interviewer (147:01)

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently. It said 20 billion one. 20 billion is an insane number.

Dan Morgan (147:09)

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 2223 after this year. And each year we get bigger and better and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

Jack Murphy (147:21)

Awesome.

Podcast Host Interviewer (147:22)

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident?

Dan Morgan (147:27)

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247365 wow.

Podcast Host Interviewer (147:37)

Dan Morgan from Morgan Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

Dan Morgan (147:41)

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

Ryan Seacrest (147:45)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is Stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tax to earn on eligible items from Smart Water, Healthy Choice, Continental, Arrowhead, Red Bull, James Tillamook and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

Spinquest Advertiser (148:17)

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Spinquest Disclaimer Voice (148:40)

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Ryan Seacrest (148:46)

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