Podcast Summary: The Team House Ep. 383

Title: Inside GSG 9 (Germany's Tier 1 Counter Terrorist Unit)
Host: Jack Murphy
Guest: Martin Herzog (author of GSG 9: From Munich to Mogadishu, the Birth of Germany’s Counterterrorism Force)
Date: November 29, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode features an in-depth discussion with journalist and author Martin Herzog about GSG 9, Germany’s first dedicated counterterrorist police unit. The conversation spans its founding, operations (especially the unit’s famed 1977 Mogadishu mission), the terror landscape of 1970s Germany, and how GSG 9 influenced counterterrorism globally.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Martin Herzog and the Story of GSG 9

• Jack Murphy introduces Martin Herzog, highlighting his recent book on GSG 9, and sets the context for the discussion: the origins of Germany’s elite police tactical unit, built from the ashes of the 1972 Munich Massacre.
• Martin Herzog shares his background (03:32), his academic roots, and his journey into researching GSG 9 after producing multiple documentaries.

2. The Munich Massacre and Its Aftermath

• Munich, 1972: The Olympic Games, intended as “jolly games” to showcase liberal, modern Germany, are shattered by a Palestinian terrorist attack (08:45).
• Security was minimal (“barely any existed”—08:45). The authorities were unprepared, lacking training, equipment, and contingency plans.
• The authorities' response devolved into catastrophe:
  • “It was a complete disaster, a complete failure.” — Martin Herzog (19:13)
  • The botched rescue left 16 dead, including all of the Israeli hostages.
• This failure was a pivotal catalyst for the creation of GSG 9:
  • “Within three weeks, GSG 9 was founded and came into existence.” — Herzog (19:56)

3. Why Create GSG 9 within the Border Guards?

• Federal vs. Provincial Authority: Germany’s postwar decentralization, meant to prevent authoritarian control, split police authority among provincial (state) governments. The federal border guards (Bundesgrenzschutz) had national jurisdiction, making them the logical home for a new federal unit (23:39).
• The personal relationship between Minister of Interior Hans-Dietrich Genscher and Ulrich Wegener, GSG 9's founder, was key (27:24).

4. Profile of Ulrich Wegener: Founder of GSG 9

• Military and police background; endured WWII, Soviet oppression, and postwar turmoil (28:42).
• Known for his directness and integrity, Wegener’s leadership style — and experience as both a resister and survivor — deeply shaped GSG 9’s ethos.
• Became Genscher's trusted liaison (34:46).

5. Building a Counterterror Force from Scratch

• No manual existed: Wegener started in 1972, before the US, UK, or most Western countries had formal counterterror units (35:23).
• Sought knowledge abroad:
  • “He went to Israel and asked the Israelis how they do that stuff.” (36:09)
  • Despite tense post-Munich relations, Israeli special operators agreed to train Wegener.
  • Developed friendships with Israeli figures like Yoni Netanyahu and Ehud Barak; laid foundation for ongoing German-Israeli counterterror cooperation (39:08).
• Organized GSG 9 based on guerrilla cell concepts (from Brazilian revolutionary Marighella), leading to small, autonomous 5-man “sets”:
  • “Initiative is the key word here… Viegener more or less took this idea one on one and just implemented that.” (43:34)
• Improvised equipment and uniforms, working ‘with needle and thread’ and collaborating with companies like Heckler & Koch (47:34).

6. The Red Army Faction (RAF) and the 1970s Terror Wave

• RAF / Baader-Meinhof Gang: Emerged from the radical left in 1968; escalated from arson to assassinations and close collaboration with Palestinian groups (53:23).
• Their operations and kidnappings set the stage for GSG 9’s first major challenge.

7. 1977 ‘German Autumn’: Mogadishu Operation

• Sequence:
  • RAF kidnaps Hans-Martin Schleyer (economic leader), triggering nationwide panic (62:04).
  • Lufthansa flight 181 (‘Landshut’) hijacked by Palestinian allies of the RAF (66:41).
• GSG 9's pursuit across Europe and the Middle East: repeatedly denied opportunities to intervene by host nations more interested in expelling the problem than resolving it (69:08).
• Mogadishu Hostage Rescue:
  • After five days, German chancellor Helmut Schmidt reluctantly authorizes direct action.
  • Wagner and his men, short on gear (“one short of these vests”—91:21), storm the aircraft. Wagner gives up his own vest, then leads from the front:
    • “He just took it off, gave it to one of his men, and then said, ‘I'll be in the front and everybody after me.’” — Herzog (91:21)
  • The raid is a near-perfect success:
    • “The firefight lasted not longer than about a minute, and then it was over.” (93:14)
    • 3 terrorists killed, 1 wounded; all hostages saved. Minimal injuries to operators.
  • The Chancellor is so overcome he briefly breaks down in tears (97:42).

“These guys really did the job... one of the very few moments that the national pride could be taken out and everybody could say, well, now, today I’m proud to be German.”
— Martin Herzog on GSG 9’s Mogadishu mission (102:12)

• Aftermath:
  • RAF leaders commit suicide in custody. Schleyer is murdered.
  • Aircraft hijacking plummets worldwide:
    • “At this point [terrorists] knew there was a force that could meet them and just take them out.” — Herzog (104:37)
  • GSG 9 becomes sought after as a model for other nations’ units. Charlie Beckwith visits to learn for Delta Force (107:00).

8. Controversies and Legacy

• GSG 9 later embroiled in political crises — notably the 1993 ‘Bad Kleinen’ incident, a botched arrest of RAF figures that led to a shootout, the deaths of an operator and a terrorist, and massive controversy over police actions (109:14).
• The RAF and German left-wing terrorism dwindled in the 1990s, dissolving itself in 1998 (116:30).

9. GSG 9 Today

• The unit remains small, elite, and highly respected — “a think tank and workshop for the whole of the Border Guard” (51:38), now with expanded maritime and Berlin branches, and an ongoing focus on new security challenges (119:02).
• Unique in being a police unit (not military): bound by constitutional law, with a strong bias toward preservation of life, including of perpetrators (122:37, 127:37).
  • “Their foremost objective is to save lives, even the ones of the terrorists. …They don’t aim for the kill, they aim for the saving of lives.” (127:37)

Notable Anecdote

• GSG 9’s medical officer recounts a 2018 Cologne hostage rescue where police shot an armed perpetrator 18 times — all to the periphery, avoiding lethal injury (127:37).
• The ethos: “If we find ourselves in a situation where we have to use our guns... [in] the debriefing, we will discuss very intensely what could we have done to avoid it.” (127:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the founding of GSG 9:
  “Within three weeks, GSG9 was founded and came into existence.”
  — Martin Herzog (19:56)

• On the debacle at Munich:
  "It was a complete disaster, a complete failure."
  — Martin Herzog (19:13)

• On Wagner’s leadership at Mogadishu:
  "He just took [his vest] off, gave it to one of his men, and then said, 'I'll be in the front and everybody after me.' And that's why they loved him really."
  — Martin Herzog (91:21)

• On GSG 9's impact on hijacking:
  "At this point they [terrorists] knew there was a force that could meet them and just take them out."
  — Martin Herzog (104:37)

• On saving lives, not killing:
  “They don't aim for the kill, they aim for the saving of lives.”
  — Martin Herzog (127:37)

Important Timestamps

• 03:32 – Herzog’s background and first connection to GSG 9
• 08:45 – The 1972 Munich Massacre detailed
• 19:56 – GSG 9 is founded
• 27:24 – Wegener’s relationship with Hans-Dietrich Genscher
• 34:46 – Wegener's biography
• 36:09 – Wegener’s training with Israeli commandos
• 43:34 – Small team cell structure; inspiration from guerrilla warfare
• 53:23 – Emergence of Red Army Faction (RAF)
• 62:04 – Kidnapping of Hans-Martin Schleyer, the ‘German Autumn’ begins
• 69:08 – GSG 9 tracks Lufthansa 181 across Europe & Middle East
• 93:14 – Assault on Landshut/Mogadishu
• 102:12 – Aftermath and national pride
• 104:37 – Impact on global hijacking and special operations
• 109:14 – The 1993 Bad Kleinen scandal
• 116:30 – Dissolution of the RAF
• 119:02 – GSG 9 today: structure, new mission sets
• 122:37 & 127:37 – GSG 9’s legal/ethical boundaries and focus on non-lethality

Conclusion

Jack Murphy and Martin Herzog provide a comprehensive, richly detailed account of GSG 9’s origins, missions, philosophies, and ongoing legacy. The conversation moves from 1970s European mayhem to present-day counterterror priorities, highlighting both operational grit and the legal-ethical challenges of a police special operations unit. Anyone interested in the evolution of counterterrorism, European history, or elite law enforcement will find this episode (and Herzog’s book) an indispensable deep dive.