C (4:13)

Yeah.

D (4:14)

Yes. It very, very much was in that order. The bone marrow biopsy. And then they wheeled you into the room to do the ultrasound. That came second.

E (4:23)

You are correct.

C (4:24)

So I'm correct in stating that in five weeks you went from being ravaged with cancer pretty much on death's doorstep, to being totally cancer free?

B (4:33)

Yes. Yes.

A (4:35)

Wow.

C (4:35)

Have any other, like, medical professionals or experts reviewed your case and what are their perspectives on how this happened and if there was a correlation between your Recovery and your NDE?

B (4:46)

So a gentleman by the name of Dr. Peter Ko, and I introduced him to Brian in Hong Kong. So Dr. Peter Ko actually lives in Los Angeles and he flew to Hong Kong to review my case. I actually gave him access to all my medical files. And he went through my medical files, like, with a fine tooth comb. He read every page. And his words to me were, lady, whichever way I look at it, you should be dead. And he said that the only thing I can attribute it to is divine intervention. Those were his words. And he actually wrote a testimony for me, which he said to me, you need to publicize what happened to you. And he said, I'm going to Write you a testimony from a medical perspective of what I found in your case, and you can use this and include it in your book. So whatever you choose to do, quote me on it so that it gives you more credibility, which I did. So in my book, I have put his testimony with his medical findings of exactly what Dr. Walker described about my body being ridden with tumors and coming out of it.

C (6:09)

You know, going back to your nde, you said, you know, you really explained well the feeling of unconditional love, but.

A (6:15)

You also said it was beautiful.

C (6:17)

Like, did you feel like you could see a place and what did it look like?

B (6:22)

So it's not like we go to a specific place. We can literally be anywhere. I felt limitless, like, if I wanted to be at a place and at that time, there's still a strong bond with your immediate family from this physical life. So I wanted to be with my brother. And so I was there. I knew where he was. I wanted to be with my husband, with my mom. And so there I was. As though you're where you want to be. And you can. I'm going to say you can see it, but again, it's not with eyes, but you are there. You're actually there. And I felt this unconditional love. Like, I was bathed in this unconditional love. And the love was coming from. You know, it's hard to explain who or where or what it was coming from. It was like, as though it was coming from my other loved ones who were already on that side. But it was more than that. It was like all of consciousness loves you, and it's like the absence of fear. That's what I realized in that realm, that when fear is completely absent, what you're left with is love. It's this beautiful, comfortable feeling where you just feel safe and secure, and you feel you don't have to try so hard and you don't have to do anything. You're just loved just because you exist.

C (8:05)

You know, outside of your father, did you see anyone else? And, you know, I know some people have thought or said they, like, had a life review or. Or had a spirit guide or felt angels. Like, was there any element of that, or was it more just your dad and maybe ancestors?

B (8:21)

I also saw my best friend who had died of cancer two years prior. And I felt. So with my best friend, you know, I gained this understanding. And I don't really speak about this so much publicly, because her family, her kids and everybody are still alive today, but I gained an understanding of why she went at that time, because that was one of the things I wanted to know, is that I'm being given a choice to go back. Were you? And why did you not? And so I gained an understanding about her as well. But I don't always speak so much about her because it's her private life, her family's private life. But I also was aware that I was being guided by beings who I didn't recognize as being from this life. And they were, I guess you could say, higher beings, wiser beings. They were guiding me. But a question that I often get is that, did I see God? Here's the thing. I felt like I became one, you know, because you feel what everyone's feeling and you feel connected to everyone and everything. I felt like I became one with everyone. And it was like I became a part of consciousness. And so it's not like I saw God. It felt like I became a facet of God. That clarity was so incredible where I even understood that because we're all connected. It was like I could see where we had even gone wrong as a species, how we grew up to believe that we're separate and we have to compete with each other. But actually we're all connected. And so we are competing with another facet of ourself. And if we understood this, we would all be working together, evolving together, but in actuality, we're pulling each other down by seeing everybody else as a threat and needing to compete with each other. So there was all of this clarity that I had that made me realize, wow, we are all facets of this one, this consciousness. We are all facets of what we call God. It was that kind of understanding.

C (10:54)

Wow. When you came back, you know, a lot of people say that they have kind of that these heightened abilities of this expanded consciousness when they do return, whether that is like a greater sense of precognition or synchronicity or even telepathy or able to lucid dream and go back to that place. Like, did you have any of these, like, abilities or, you know, the consciousness gifts, if you will, carry over from your nde?

B (11:20)

So I'm going to say yes, but I want to. But I want to clarify something. As a child, I was extremely intuitive, very. And I even remember at age 5, 6, 7, knowing who was on the phone. And before my parents would even pick up the phone, I would tell them who was on the other end. I would hum a tune and someone would turn on the radio, and that would be the tune playing on the radio. I was doing a lot of that as a child. And my brother used to tease me about it, but in a good way, you know, like he wasn't shaming me or anything. And I used to see images and things, people in my room when I was a child. But as I grew older, of course you start to feel that there's something wrong with you and nobody else sees it and people tease you about imaginary friends. So I repressed my. All of that. So when I was in the near death experience state, I realized that we are supposed to be intuitive. To me it was more like, oh, that was actually the truth. It's repressing. It is what's not normal. That was normal. That is who we are supposed to be. That is how I was born and probably how many of us are born, but we repress it. So yes, it came back, but I believe I always had it, but I repressed it for a long time.

C (12:48)

And so when it came back, how did it present for you? Was it now you can tell who's calling before they call and that type of thing?

B (12:55)

Not always, but sometimes when I least expect it, like my husband and I have a very strong connection where we can finish each other's sentences and say what's on each other's minds, but we play with this and we try it out and we do things. The biggest thing that happened was the fact that everything that I saw in my near death experience as to how my life would pan out actually did pan out. That was the interesting thing. I saw what it was going to be and it did turn out that way.

C (13:28)

Can you check off some of the things that you envisioned when you were in your NDE that came true?

B (13:34)

So the first and most obvious thing was that I saw myself, my body healing very, very rapidly. And that actually happened. So I saw that in the NDE that that would happen. And so there I saw it was healing very rapidly. Then the second thing was that I saw myself speaking on stage. And to me that was. I was incredulous about that because that was not mean. That was not. I didn't know what I would be speaking about, who would I be speaking to? How am I going to get an audience? And so very organically though, what happened is after I came out, this experience and I didn't know what to do with it, and as Brian knows also, we walked into his office and we were like, well, I don't even know what to do with what happened. I don't even know how to explain it. Danny, my husband, told me, just write, write about what happened to you? Just put it in writing and it'll feel cathartic. So that's what I did. And then my brother told me about an NDE website and he said, take a look at this. People have had experiences that are sort of similar to yours, but not quite so. I looked at the website and it was intriguing. And then there was a button to click where it said, have you had a near death experience? Click here to submit your experience. Now, bear in mind, this is literally just a few months after my experience. I was still navigating life and couldn't explain what had happened. And when I would tell people that I think I. When people would say, why do you think you healed? And I would tell them because I understood. And people would say, oh, yeah, that, but that explanation is not going to fly, certainly not in medicine. And so anyway, so I wrote everything in my own words just to get it out of my system. So now here I was presented with this NDE website that said, have you had an experience of your own? And so I clicked and I answered the questions they asked. And then it said, please write your story here. I copied and pasted everything that I'd written and I just pasted it into this website. And then after I submitted, said on the screen, please allow three weeks or 21 days before somebody comes back to you. Within 24 hours. Somebody reached out to me and it turned out it was Dr. Jeffrey Long. I'd never heard of him before, but Dr. Jeffrey Long is an oncologist and he reached out and he said, I own the site and I've been curious about NDEs, and we have thousands of NDEs on our site. Yours is one of the most fascinating and intriguing that I have ever read. May I ask you a few more questions? Because I'm an oncologist and I'm particularly interested in knowing more about your illness and your healing. So I answered his questions. I showed him a few pages from my medical records and he said, wow, this has blown me away. Do you mind if I put it on the home page of my site? And I said, no, of course not. Now, he didn't even use my real name. He just called it Anita M's nde. And in that story, I even wrote that I saw myself speaking to thousands of people, but I didn't understand what I was speaking to them about. So he puts it on his homepage and unbeknownst to me, the story goes viral and it gets picked up by Dr. Wayne Dyer. You've heard of Dr. Wayne Dyer, a Hay House author but he's someone who sold millions and millions of copies and somebody prints out the story and gives it to him and says, you need to read this. So he says he's never reacted this way before when someone's handed him a story. And he said it printed out to 20 pages of full letter size paper, single line spacing. But he said the minute he started reading it, he couldn't stop and he read it to the end and he went to his publishers and he told his publishers to track me down. It took his publishers five months to track me down because there was no information there about my email or anything. They finally tracked me down and they found me on my birthday and they told me that Dr. Wayne Dyer has discovered your story and has asked us to invite you to write a book with your story which we will publish and he will help you to promote. So that just happened to me and then I connected with Wayne Dyer. He wrote the foreword to the book. Hay House published my book. I got a publishing deal on my lap. And then, and I was living in Hong Kong and so Hay House then flew me to the United States to be on a at an event with Dr. Wayne Dyer where he was speaking to 3,000 people. And he introduced me to them like I was sitting there in the audience. Hay House had flown me there, the publishers, and then he spoke about my story and then he said, we've flown her here from Hong Kong. And he had me come on stage and I was standing there on stage, never having addressed so many people in my life, holding the microphone. I was shaking and quivering because I've, you know, I mean, I'm the least qualified person to stand in front of 3,000 people. And I looked at them and I thought, this is what I saw in the near death experience. And I'm so glad I had written about it before it happened because this is what I had seen. And then he launched me into the world. But he looked at me in that moment and he said, are you scared? Because I was shaking. He said, what? Are you scared? And I said, yes, I've never spoken in front of such a big audience before. And he said, you've been dead and back. What have you got to be scared about? And I said, I said, actually being dead is easier than public speaking.

A (19:57)

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C (22:38)

That is such an unbelievable story. So I'd love, I guess now to hear both you, all of you really, all three of you, to talk about how this experience has impacted your views of consciousness, of death, of religion. You know, of all the big questions, what. What do you believe now? Post NDE and witnessing this recovery. Brian, do you want to go first?

E (23:02)

This took my knowledge from a theory into practice and I had to actually start living the reality that this reality we see is not actually real at all. And it's very, very true. I've had a number of experiences which I can now put into context. For example, my little brother died in 2018. I. I was flying to Scotland to see him and I had a chat with him actually on the plane. It's only when I landed in London to have my sister call and say, he's actually, he's passed away. I should have known that. Or indeed my father. I was 17, hitchhiking Europe and the world suddenly caved in and like black clouds and rain, it wasn't raining, but I was just, I was crying and I was going into holiday, for goodness sakes, at the exact moment my father died. So I have plenty more experiences too. So you kind of shelve those because think, okay, fine, yeah, but you put into context and realize that we actually are in tune, that the intuition, this understanding that we can actually sense things which don't, there's no explanation for it. But if you then begin to understand what we're doing, that this theory that we're all one, that we're all this energetic movement. Even yesterday I was speaking with friends who about this, that if you look at the underlying energetic nature of every single atom in our universe, there's actually an electromagnetic wave traveling at the speed of light. Ah, but in that dimension, time can't exist. So we're actually in a different paradigm altogether. So this understanding that what we're seeing here is not reality at all and what Anita experienced is reality, it makes you think differently. And the question that you have is the fundamental thing that I'm thankful to Anita for. Fear has no place in our lives. You can recognize it as a problem here, but fear guiding your life by fear, no My tragic story is one of my children killed himself two and a half years ago, three years ago almost. And how do you put that into kind of context? The energy that we are, I can now relativize and I can give that a name. That is love. So that the loss of a loved one has resulted in me understanding more that love is all there is.

C (25:10)

Do you think your response to your son's death would have been a lot different had you not witnessed what happened with Anita? And this confidence that life continues in some way.

E (25:23)

Oh, look, remember that? Waving the handkerchief at the station. And the tears come. They still come to me. And they should, because they expresses love in the absence of the person. You know, in this reality, I'm separate from my loved ones. So it's tearful, but yes, it allowed me to appreciate more the reality that is not here, but is elsewhere. In what form, I don't think even Anita can say because that's, that's what happens next after you move on. Okay, but the understanding that what we currently see, this three dimensional illusion of reality, is very real for us now, we must learn something from it because we're going to move on, are we not? Okay, so how are we going to live here? And if we get the idea that we're all one, this idea of competing, as Anita pointed out, that's not who we are. And we ought to be manifesting this more in our lives to turn this world into a paradise. That really is the message we should be spreading out. Not fear of death. No. Love of life. Love of all life.

C (26:21)

Yeah. It's beautiful. And then, Danny, how about for you, what did you think about life after death? Death, consciousness, survival, God, that type of thing before the nde. And what do you think about it now?

D (26:34)

If I was able to put this into, into a little bit of a context. I was about 10 years old when I started exploring what was at that time referred to as the paranormal. I started exploring out of body travel, I started exploring telekinesis, I started exploring telepathy. And so I think by the time we got to Anita's experience and her telling me about her, about my conversation with the doctor at the nurses station, it was like, ah, yeah, okay, makes perfect sense to me. So I think I was well indoctrinated into what, what many people would refer to as the paranormal, which I think is actually misclassified. I think it's more normal than, than para. So I think, yeah, there was very, very little change in my, in my belief system. It just went on if nothing else, but to continue to reinforce it. And still, until today, we're constantly playing in the, in the field of metaphysics and, and energy. And as Anita said earlier, I mean, we are, half the time we're actually in each other's minds, able to conclude each other's conversations, finish each other's sentences.

B (27:54)

And I have to say, I am so relieved that Danny was one of those people that didn't disbelieve everything that happened to me. It would have been much harder to integrate what happened to me because when I came back, I noticed that I was emotionally, mentally, psychologically very different. I had been impacted so much, you know, with the understanding and the depth and seeing my own body heal physically and knowing without a doubt that there is this other world of consciousness beyond this one, and that we are multi sensory beings. And I was more interested in tapping into that world than being so immersed in this one that most of the people I knew around me, my community that I had always been with all these years, they were still very much immersed in the physical, three dimensional, five sensory world of fear. And I didn't have time for that fear. I mean, I knew that that fear was unhealthy and I didn't want to be part of that. And when I would try and speak about, and address this and talk about consciousness and what I experienced now everybody around me, they were, they knew that what I experienced was, I mean, we can call it a miracle or spontaneous healing. And they all felt I was lucky to be alive and that they were relieved I was alive. But they didn't understand when I would speak about the other side. And they would often say, you've got to come back into the real world now. You've got to stop, you know, being so immersed in the other world. You've got to come back into the real world and get realistic. And so I would tell them, but I am being realistic. I'm talking about a better way of living this physical life. And that is being aware that there is more that we can tap into. It's not somewhere else, it's right here. And I would try and explain it, but they kept feeling that I was being unrealistic or I was being delusional. And so I literally had to, I became a little bit lonely because I was in this world. And this is why I was so relieved that Danny was right in there with me. He was like, yes, let's play, let's do this, let's experiment. So we have kept it going, we have held onto this, we know there is a reality beyond this one that's more real than this. We know it's right here. We know if people choose to tap into it, they can, and they can make it work for them, and they can make it work in a way that it enhances this physical life.

C (30:35)

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, how do you respond if, like a skeptic looks at your story and dismisses it? Has that happened to you? I mean, have you, have you had to deal with that? And what do they say and what's your response?

B (30:47)

Yeah, I deal with it all the time. Even right from the beginning, I've dealt with it. For me, what was an amazing turning point was Wayne Dyer discovering my story. But even then I've dealt with skeptics. So I would never have gone so public with it if Wayne Dyer hadn't discovered it. Because I was more used to the skeptics of the people around me. The people around me saw me healed like you. You saw Brian's reaction. Everybody's reaction was they saw that happen to me. So they couldn't deny that everybody knew I was dying. But what people skeptical about is what I saw on the other side, or what. And so they try to discredit that. But again, as I said, I'm so glad I wrote about this image of me speaking to thousands of people long before it actually happened. So there's a lot there that people can't deny that happened. Yet I still deal with skeptics who say things like maybe you were misdiagnosed and you didn't have cancer at all. Which is crazy because I had five different doctors tell me that I had cancer and was dying. What I do, though, is I don't try to convince the skeptics. I don't try to convince them, I don't tell them anything. I just let them go. Basically, I keep speaking to the people who want to go deeper into this subject matter because there's a lot of people that are hungry for this information. We live in a culture where people who believe in this and know it's true and dabble in it and try to expand it, the people who do that and want to make it credible, we're the ones that are seen as crazy or woo woo. Whereas the people who dismiss it and the ones who debunk it are seen as intelligent, which is really too bad, because my life works so much better for having one foot in each side, I call it. And I just think that they're the ones missing out.

C (33:02)

I love that. I think that is the best advice someone could ever give. And then for your. Did you ever. Have you seen your dad since In a dream or your best friend at all?

B (33:10)

Yes, I do see them in dreams and both, but particularly my dad. My dad, who caused the most fear when he was alive. And now it's like he's my biggest advocate.

C (33:25)

And when you see him in the dreams, does it feel not like a dream? Does it feel like a lucid dreaming, like you're going to the other side to meet him, or that your consciousness is mingling in some way?

B (33:33)

It feels very, very real, like he's really here. Like, when I'm even now thinking of one of the dreams, it's like I see his face and he's laughing in a way that he mostly didn't when he was here. And it's so real. It's the way they present themselves. Of course, they don't have a physical body, but in the Dre, they really present themselves vividly. And, yeah, I can see it so clearly. He cheers me on. And he is very happy. Like, yeah, in the last dream, he said, I am very, very happy over here.

A (34:11)

So great.

C (34:12)

And then, I know you don't want to talk too much about your best friend and keep that private, but, you know, do you think everyone has a chance to go back, or do you think we don't? Like, when you met with your best friend, did she seem to have a chance like you did? Or does not everyone have that choice?

B (34:28)

So the understanding I gained from being there and being with my best friend and generally from being there and getting a choice, I understood that it's different for every individual. And for some individuals, you know, I guess at some point, people do reach the end of their life, and that's it. That's the end of their life. But for a lot of individuals, they. If. If they do get a choice, they always choose the more unconditionally loving choice. So, in other words, some people really do believe that staying there is more loving for their family here than coming back. And it could be because maybe they are. Maybe their lives are so complicated here that their relationships and their existence in those relationships are hurting people. No matter what they do or who they go with, people are being hurt. And so from that perspective, it's like, oh, I'm better off leaving and helping my family from this side rather than physically being there. So we always make the more unconditionally loving choice. I just wanted to circle back to one other thing that I learned while I was on the other side. I Learned that my purpose and my husband's purpose, Danny's purpose, are linked. And if I didn't come back, he wouldn't be able to fulfill his purpose either. And that was another big reason for me to come back.

C (36:05)

Wow, that's so interesting. I wonder if that often happens with spouses. It could probably happen with anyone though, right?

B (36:11)

Yeah. And. And I think that sometimes people deliberately choose an exit point when they've lost a loved one. And the understanding I gained was that that's what would happen. That if I chose to stay there, there would be like a graceful exit point for Dani, maybe via an illness or something.

C (36:33)

Geez, gosh, that's so wild. I mean, that is wild. So, like, had you chose to just stay on the other side, Danny's life might have ended earlier?

B (36:43)

Yes.

C (36:44)

Wow, that is a lot to think about. I think it gives so much credibility to mediumship, you know? And I know that there are, of course, some mediums who are charlatals or might not have the best interpretation or translation, you know, but it does seem like some people might just be able to have the gift of connecting in some way telepathically with the other side. And I mean, has that turned on for you, even with seeing? Have you been able to see Brian Walker's son at all? Or do you feel like that gift heightens if you've had an nde?

B (37:17)

I do sense my own deceased loved ones communicating with me all the time. So what has really turned on for me is a guidance for my own life and for the people around me. And I'm usually able to intuit for people around me more than I ever have before, before having the near death experience. And I hear in my head guidance all the time. And I'm always asking questions and I'm getting the answers and I'm asking questions, and it's usually guidance of, okay, what should I do next? And I just have to get quiet and I get the answers. And I feel like they're around me all the time, helping me, because there's so many things that I have encountered and done and experienced that I never could have created or done on my own. It's like almost like they're helping me. And I go and see an acupuncturist a couple of times a month. Like once or twice a month, I see this acupuncturist who's very, very intuitive. And when she works on me, she always tells me, she says, you never come here alone. You bring a whole lot of people here with you. Who are guiding me on where to put the needles in you and where you need it most to release any blocked energy. And she says, I don't have this with any other one of my cl. You bring this whole room full of people. And so it's not that she is a clairvoyant or an intuit, it's just that she feels something that she doesn't feel with her other clients. So those are the kinds of experiences I have. But I do get a lot of messages that have helped me in my life a lot. That I could not have physically found out these things in any way.

C (39:19)

So cool. Just so beautiful.

B (39:21)

I would want everybody to know that they can have access to this space that I'm talking about, this non physical space, to consciousness, to guidance. Everybody has access to it. But it is our skepticism towards it that blocks us from it. It is the fact that we believe it.

C (39:44)

Woo woo.

B (39:45)

We believe it's more intelligent to debunk it. But it is better to believe and be wrong than to not believe and think you're right. Because the more that you believe, the more you're kind of opening a doorway to allow it to slowly start to come into your life. But the more you debunk it, you're actually closing that door and. And you're closing the door for it to ever happen for you.

A (40:17)

That's it for this episode of the Talk Tracks, but new episodes will be released every Wednesday. So stay tuned as we work to unravel all the threads, even the veiled ones that knit together our reality. And please remember to stay kind, stay curious. And that being a true skeptic requires an open mind. Thank you to my amazing collaborators. Original music by Rachel Cantu. Opening and closing music by Elizabeth P. W. Original logo and cover art by Ben Kendora. Design. I want to thank our producers, Jill Pichesnick and Katherine Ellis. Our associate producer is Selena Kennedy.

C (40:48)

The audio mix and finishing by Sarah Ma.

A (40:50)

And I'm Kai Dickens, your executive producer, writer and host.