S2E27: Unlearning Our Fear of Death

Summary

The Telepathy Tapes – S2E27: "Unlearning Our Fear of Death"
Host: Ky Dickens
Guest: Lynette Wallworth (Emmy-winning filmmaker & artist)
Date: April 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores humanity's relationship with death—especially the fear, denial, and loss of knowledge surrounding dying prevalent in Western cultures. Host Ky Dickens speaks with Lynette Wallworth, a filmmaker whose near death experience at age nine set her on a lifelong path studying alternate cultural understandings of death, dying, and the "edge of life." Drawing from Lynette’s personal story, indigenous wisdom, psychedelic-assisted therapies, and her new documentary Edge of Life, the conversation reveals how losing, reclaiming, or altering our relationship with death fundamentally changes the way we live.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Lynette Wallworth’s Journey (01:35–05:00)

• Lynette introduces herself and discusses her background in immersive technologies and documentary filmmaking.
• Her exploration into death began young, after a series of unexplained grand mal seizures as a child.
• At age nine, Lynette had a seizure that led to her clinically dying and experiencing a vivid, life-changing near death experience (NDE).

Quote:
"I had just left my body completely. I saw myself on the ground, and then very swiftly, I was traveling through light of extraordinary color... I was still myself, but I was no longer in my body."
—Lynette Wallworth (03:15)

• She describes meeting two loving beings she later recognized as great-grandparents, and having an abiding sensation of belonging and connection.

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2. The Aftermath and Cultural Isolation (05:00–06:50)

• Lynette struggled with integrating her experience in 1970s Australia; the term "near death experience" didn’t yet exist.
• Doctors dismissed her account as a mere dream.

Quote:
"The doctor said to me, 'Oh, you had a dream?' I said to him, 'No, this is the dream.' I remember realizing very swiftly, oh, I've said the wrong thing, I should not talk about this."
—Lynette Wallworth (05:38)

• She internalized her experience and realized over time that her relationship to death had changed—she no longer feared it, a perspective that made her feel alienated until decades later.

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3. Belonging, Connection, and Impact of the NDE (06:51–07:58)

• Lynette likens returning from an NDE to living on the surface of a lake, falling in, discovering a whole other world, and being pulled back, expected to pretend nothing unusual had happened.
• The NDE instilled in her an unshakable connection to life, people, and nature.
• Her relationship to death changed: she still experiences grief, but has no fear of a loss of connection or ongoing existence.

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4. Indigenous Perspectives on Death & Belonging (08:00–12:45)

Connection with the Yawanawa of the Brazilian Amazon (08:19–09:17)

• Meeting Tashka Yawanawa and exploring the Yawanawa peoples’ attitudes to death and their use of ayahuasca.

Quote (Tashka Yawanawa via Lynette):
"We are sad when someone dies, but we don't fear death." (09:12)

Yawanawa Wisdom (09:28–10:09)

(Clip from Lynette’s film, Mucha, Yawanawa tribe)

• Death is seen as a natural passage, led by family members who have gone before, and should not be feared but surrendered to.

Clip Highlight:
"Death will open the way for us...they will meet us and they will lead us to where they went. So tell people that they will reach this point, but they shouldn't worry. It's like surrendering your body to death." (09:35)

Realization:

• Lynette finds kinship with indigenous perspectives, understanding that death-denial is cultural, not universal (10:10–10:37).

On Mystical States and Psychedelics (11:21–12:24)

• Plant medicines give indigenous peoples direct access to experiences beyond the physical body, paralleling her NDE.
• Lynette never took ayahuasca, but found mutual understanding with those who have.

Quote:
"There's a channel that opens up in consciousness...recognizable in some way to others who also have that same channel opening." —Lynette (10:42)

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5. Western Death Denial & the Role of Psychedelics (15:53–21:05)

The Documentary: Edge of Life

• Lynette documents a clinical psilocybin trial at St. Vincent’s Hospital, recording two palliative patients’ journeys confronting death.

Patient Stories:

• Roz, a Christian woman grieving her husband and facing cancer, has a psilocybin experience mirroring Lynette’s NDE—she lifts out of her body, sees her children thriving, reunites with her deceased husband and parents, and loses her fear of death (17:52–19:57).

• Flavia, the second subject, seeks guidance from Mayan shamans following her psychedelic session. Sergio Peches shares how the Mayan tradition frames death as recycling into the universe, not an end but a new cycle (20:36–21:33).

Quote (Mayan Shaman):
"We don't disappear or die. We simply recycle life. And the gift that life gives you is the power to know that we don't cease to exist." (21:21)

Continuing Indigenous Guidance:

• As Flavia nears death, the Mayan shamans send her comforting messages, which her family and she find deeply helpful.

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6. Healing Grief & Reclaiming Rituals (22:04–23:58)

• Touching the body of the deceased (vs. outsourcing funeral rituals) provides profound closure and embodiment of the transition.
• Western funeral practices’ removal of personal participation intensifies fear and avoidance.

Quote:
"Just that touch helps. We know something through our physicality that needs to be comprehended by our minds that are dealing with this extreme pain." —Lynette (22:18)

• Lynette’s purpose in making her film is to help reconnect this broken thread and support healthier, more communal grieving.

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7. Restoring Lost Knowledge & Practices (24:09–25:40)

Dr. Christopher Kerr:

• Edge of Life features Dr. Christopher Kerr, a hospice physician whose research confirms these transcendent, visionary experiences at the end of life.
• Ky notes Kerr’s data supports these accounts are "not new knowledge, this is lost knowledge." (24:09)

Practical Suggestions:

• Lynette encourages connecting directly with indigenous teachers if possible, or through contemplative, meditative practice to build one’s "interior landscape" (24:49–25:40).

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8. Tech, Cultural Amnesia, and the Supernatural (25:58–27:03)

• Ky and Lynette discuss how technology has fragmented communal, nature-connected practices, including healthy relationships to death—the "losses" we can’t even recognize until generations later.
• Death, and its acceptance, is another of those skills lost in modernization.

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9. The Human Right to the Mystical (29:06–32:11)

Preserved Mysticism: The Mazatec Example (29:06–29:55)

• Mazatec people in Mexico risked their lives to keep psychedelic healing rituals alive during colonial suppression—an act suggesting the importance of "direct experience of the mystical."
• Lynette calls it “maybe a human right”—not to force, but to know that mystical states are available (29:55).

Lost Western Traditions:

• Reference to The Immortality Key (Brian Muraresku; S2E7): ancient Greeks, early Christians, and Jews likely used psychedelic rites for mystical experience and to lessen fear of death.
• Mysticism and transcendence were once familiar terrain in the West, now nearly erased.

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10. Shifts in Death Practices and the Path Forward (32:11–34:41)

• Ky traces how embalming and the American funeral industry shifted the cultural approach to death.
• Lynette asserts changes are possible again, especially as quantum physics opens new paradigms suggesting connectedness akin to mystical/telepathic states.

Quote:
"The capacity of particles to know what another particle is doing...sounds a lot like telepathy, right?" —Lynette (33:43)

• She declares that fear is the principal obstacle in Western cultures’ approach to death.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• NDE as a Child:
  "I saw myself on the ground, then very swiftly, I was traveling through light of extraordinary color... I was still myself, but I was no longer in my body."
  —Lynette Wallworth (03:15)

• Early Realizations & Societal Gaps:
  "No, this is the dream." (05:38)
  —Lynette’s response to a doctor calling her NDE a dream

• On the Cultural Nature of Death Fear:
  "The fear of death is not universal, it's cultural." (10:09)
  —Lynette

• Indigenous Guidance:
  "Death will open the way for us...they shouldn’t worry. It’s like surrendering your body to death." (09:35)
  —Mucha, Yawanawa Tribe (via translation)

• The Importance of Mystical Experience:
  "Maybe it's a human right to have access to a direct experience of the mystical." (29:55)
  —Lynette

• Funeral Rituals and Grief:
  "Just that touch helps. We know something through our physicality that needs to be comprehended by our minds..." (22:18)
  —Lynette

• On Quantum Physics and Mystical States:
  "The capacity of particles to know what another particle is doing...sounds a lot like telepathy, right?" (33:43)
  —Lynette

• Lost Knowledge:
  "This is not new knowledge, this is lost knowledge." (24:09)
  —Dr. Christopher Kerr (as cited by Lynette)

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Suggested Pathways for Reconnection

• Seek indigenous wisdom where possible, respecting boundaries and willingness to share (24:49).
• Practice meditation and introspective techniques to cultivate an inner sense of belonging and acceptance of mortality (25:40).
• Reconsider death rituals—engage physically and communally, reclaiming personal participation (22:18).
• Understand that mystical states are part of human inheritance, not exclusive to any one tradition (29:55).

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Conclusion – What Can Change, and Why It Matters (34:01–34:41)

• Cultural approaches to death can and do change, shaped by need and historical events.
• Lynette’s hope is for a shift away from fear and toward reconnection with lost forms of wisdom—through science, spirituality, and open dialogue.

Quote:
"I think we're coming to a time culturally where we're going to need all of this more because we're careering into some challenging times...We can lose things from culture and generations down, we may not even know they're gone, but the loss of them impacts us in our sense of self and sense of happiness."
—Lynette (25:58)

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Essential Takeaways

• Fear of death isn’t universal or natural—it’s learned, and can be unlearned.
• Direct or mystical experiences (via NDEs, psychedelics, or meditative/contemplative practices) transform one's relationship to mortality, making death less fearsome and enhancing a sense of connection.
• Indigenous traditions and wisdom keep portals open to understanding death as a continuation or transformation, not a final void.
• Restoring ritual, direct experience, and communal participation helps heal both the dying and the grieving.
• Reconnecting with lost knowledge and shifting cultural narratives around death could profoundly improve how we live and die.

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Recommended Next Steps:

• Watch for Lynette Wallworth’s Edge of Life documentary release (early access via Apple TV, with broader streaming in Q1 next year).
• Explore episode S2E7 for Brian Muraresku’s work on psychedelic roots of Western spirituality.
• Seek out ways to connect with indigenous perspectives or to build personal contemplative practices if facing mortality or seeking to heal from loss.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi everyone, I'm Kai Dickens and I'm thrilled to welcome you to the Talk tracks. In this series we'll dive deeper into the revelations, challenges and unexpected truths from the Telepathy tapes. The goal is to explore all the threads that weave together our understanding of reality, science, spirituality, and yes, even unexplained things like psi abilities. If you haven't yet listened to the Telepathy tapes, I encourage you to start there. It lays the foundation for everything we'll be exploring in this journey will feature conversations with groundbreaking researchers, thinkers, non speakers and experiencers who illuminate the extraordinary connections that may defy explanation today, but won't for long.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[A]

speak with Emmy award winning filmmaker and artist Lynette Walworth, who had a near death experience at just 9 years old that reshaped her understanding of reality, dying and what it means to belong to this world. This set her on a journey to explore alternative relationships to death which led her to indigenous people's traditions in Australia, Mexico and the Brazilian Amazon. Her work really dovetails with ours in that she's exploring knowledge about living and dying that was once widely held and has since been lost, especially in the West. So Lynette, why don't you introduce yourself?

[D]

So I'm Lynette Warworth, I live in Sydney, Australia. I work in immersive technologies in emerging technologies as well as traditional documentary. Had many, many supporters who've helped me on my unusual quest to follow this sort of thread about our existence, our reality and the edge of life.

[A]

And this journey into exploring death emerged in a rather remarkable way for me.

[D]

That exploration began when I was young. I used to have seizures occasionally they were grand mal seizures of an unknown cause so they could not be diagnosed. And frequently I Stopped breathing. And the last seizure I had was when I was nine years old. That set me on a path which has changed my entire life.

[A]

Can you take us back to that day?

[D]

I was at my grandparents house in the country, rolling on a big drum, just enjoying myself, having fun. I fell, I hit my back and I had a seizure. And I was alone. And by the time my family found me, I had stopped breathing altogether. So my dad had to resuscitate me. And I'm sure that was a terrifying thing for him. But for me, I had just left my body completely. I saw myself on the ground, and then very swiftly, I was traveling through light of extraordinary color. And I knew that I was still myself, but I was no longer in my body. So I knew those two things. And I came to a place where I met two beings who I didn't know, but I knew knew me. I would say the sensation was most closely of being held in absolute love, but of a kind that I haven't experienced before or since, because it was overwhelming in its sense of belonging. And probably that's the big word I would attach to it and the challenging word to live with. Many years later, I saw a photo of my great grandparents and I realized that was my great grandfather and my great grandmother. And I understood somehow. And nothing is spoken. There's just sensation that I needed to return and that these people would be kind of standing outside of time, present for whoever from the family came next. And I knew that that would be my grandfather. So I opened my eyes, my dad was resuscitating me, the family around. There was a lot of tension, a lot of fear and worry. And my first thought was, oh, this is a dream. Like we are dreaming this together. Where I have just been is enduring reality. And that thought has never left me.

[A]

Gosh, what an intense experience to undergo so young.

[D]

It was a difficult thing to deal with as a 9 year old. I think I've often thought to have a near death experience like that, it extends your understanding of reality.

[A]

You know, nowadays NDEs are more common, but back then I can't imagine this was understood or accepted, or maybe there wasn't even a lexicon around it.

[D]

My near death experience happened in the 70s, three years before Raymond Moody coined the term. There was no one I could talk to about this. So I was taken to doctors to have brain scans. And I remember vividly telling the doctor what had happened to me. You know, the doctor said to me, oh, you had a dream? I said to him, no, this is the dream. I remember the sensation of realizing very swiftly, oh, I've said the wrong thing, I should not talk about this. And, you know, if it happened to a child now, people would know to ask questions. But I just didn't have that help. It was a different time.

[A]

So even if others around you didn't, you know, understand it, what changed for you when you returned from your near death experience?

[D]

The best way I can describe it, it's like if you lived your entire life on the surface of a lake and everyone you knew was on the surface of the lake, every building was on the surface of the lake, Your entire existence was on the surface of this lake. And then one day you fell in and underneath there is entire other existence where you move differently, it's fluid, light behaves differently, there's different beings, there's an entirely different experience to be had. And then you get pulled out and you have to act as though you know none of that. And that was a challenge of, let's get back to that word, belonging. People, when they want to hear about near death experiences, want to hear about what happened. What changes you is how you emerge from it. And what is changed is your relationship to everything here. So actually, the impact it had is it made me a far more connected human being than I would have been. That feeling of connection doesn't fade. And so it changes your relationship to all other people, all life, all of nature.

[A]

And how did it change your relationship to death?

[D]

I did not know for a long time that I had an unusual relationship to dying, but what it did for me was take away my fear of death. So from that early age, I have not been afraid of death. It's not that I'm not sad when someone dies. Of course I experience loss. I grieve and mourn and miss, but I do not fear the loss of connection or the loss of the ongoing existence in some form of those I've loved, because it's what happened to me.

[A]

And when you started to realize that you related to dying in a way others didn't, how did you make sense of that?

[D]

It really wasn't until I started to work with different remote indigenous people that my relationship to death made sense to me, because it was similar.

[A]

How did you first get introduced to these indigenous perspectives?

[D]

You know, the really fortunate thing for me is the oldest living uninterrupted culture is here in Australia. It's always been a part of my thinking to explore these cultural differences that exist in my own place. And indigenous understandings of death came from my closeness with Tashka. Yawannawa and the Yawanawa people. So the Yawanawa are from the Brazilian Amazon in Accra. So I met Tushka at Oxford in England, of all places. And he had come there with several other chiefs from the Amazon, brought there to talk about issues to do with Brazilian forests. And we met and we got on immediately. And I asked him, what do Yawanawa people feel about death? So these are people who are using a visioning tool all the time, ayahuasca, in order to go into vision states and travel, we might say, without the body. And he said, yoanaua, we are sad when someone dies, but we don't fear death.

[A]

And here's a clip that Lynette shared from her upcoming film that we'll hear more about later. This is Mucha from the Yawanawa tribe describing his understanding of death, spoken here by our English translator.

[E]

Human animals, fish, trees, everything will pass through death. Death is a being that the Great Spirit has given to all that live on earth. So before dying, we will see many visions. These visions are the gathering of our family members who have passed away before us. Oh, unseeing. There comes my grandfather. There comes my uncle. The death will open the way for us. They will meet us and they will lead us to where they went. So tell people that they will reach this point, but they shouldn't worry. It's like surrendering your body to death.

[D]

The Yawanawa have helped me understand myself. The strands of myself that didn't quite fit in the culture I was raised in. I found a home with the Yamanoa. And so that was where I started to realize that the fear of death is not universal, it's cultural. And so then if it's cultural, what has impacted us culturally to make us so death? Denying that's a very interesting question.

[A]

What about your NDE do you think makes your experience relatable to them and vice versa?

[D]

It's possible that there's a channel that opens up in consciousness when you have one of these experiences that is recognizable in some way to others who also have that same channel opening. So we think about it like a spectrum of color, and we know we see visible color and bees can see in the ultraviolet range. That's the best way of explaining it to myself because it's happened to me several times that I have no training. I should not actually have the ability to have these connections, apart from the fact that that something was opened up in me as a nine year old that never closes down.

[A]

And the Yawanawa people have this channel open by doing ayahuasca, right?

[D]

Yeah. They know it because they have a practice of accessing that state. So when I was interviewing community members, I have not had an ayahuasca experience, and yet I understand what they're talking about. They understand what I'm talking about. That was that first place where I realized there's a kind of cohesiveness here to these states. And I realized that I wanted to do a more explicit work about exactly this subject that would try and connect. What is this death denying aspect in Western culture? Where has that come from if it's not universal? Because it's a void. Right.

[A]

So in some ways what you found is that many indigenous cultures have a more positive relationship to death because of these plant medicines or psychedelics like psilocybin or ayahuasca that allow them to leave the body and have an experience beyond. Just like you had with your nde.

[D]

Those peoples who have not locked themselves away from the understanding that we have physical bodies and that they will all die have just so much to tell us.

[A]

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[F]

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[A]

This led you to your next journey, which became the documentary Edge of Life where you really explored these themes by following a clinical psilocybin trial of two patients facing the end of life, which opens up to a deeper investigation as the patients and the doctors facilitating the medical trial needed to journey beyond Western medicine to seek guidance from indigenous knowledge holders in an effort to understand what they were going through and what has been lost from our culture around death and dying. So I think it's a fabulous basis for investigation. And can you tell us a bit about how that story began?

[D]

I had reached out to this psychiatrist and psychologist Marg and Justin. They were working in palliative care at St. Vincent's Hospital. They had these 30 patients that they were going to offer psilocybin treatment for with psychotherapy. So they were on the same path as me if you like, and using an ancient medicine that The Mazatech have used, as we know, for so long, in order to help people find a new relationship to their approaching death. So I said, why don't we film this? And I told them, I have friends in the Amazon, in other places around the world, in Mexico, who use these same medicines, different form. And I'm interested in how we might weave cultural understandings back together. Because it seems like there's a void in our culture. What is this void about? Why is this cliff that people fall off at the end of life in Western culture or this terror attached to a sense of nothingness? Because we have nothing to hold us here. No cultural knowledge, no story. Unless you belong to an organized religion, then you'll have some version. But a lot of people in my country don't belong to an organized religion.

[A]

Okay, so you start working on a documentary with the two doctors who are doing this medical trial with psilocybin to help two patients overcome their fear around death and dying and what happened.

[D]

So with Justin, Marg, I could follow these two incredible women. And one of the women we follow, Roz, she belongs to a Christian community. She's very held in her religious beliefs. She had lost her husband two years before she got her own diagnosis of cancer. And she's got three young adult children, all in their 20s. And she's thinking, I'm going to leave these young people with no parents. She was very distressed. She cried a lot of the time. And she was still practicing her religion, which I'm sure gave her solace. But she joined up to Justin and Mark's trial because of her grief and anxiety. And she has this psilocybin experience. And what she says is, she rehearsed her own death. She's lying on the bed, and then she lifts up and she sees her own body. She sees her own body lying there. She recognizes that that is her. She is also now in herself somewhere else. She moves very quickly through light and sees almost in some future point, her three children. They're doing very ordinary things. I think she said her daughter was packing lunches into containers. She sees she's okay. She sees her son, then the next son. She realizes that life is going on and they're fine. And the moment she has the thought that they're okay, she's moved again. And this time in this movement through reverberations of light, she's somewhere else. And she sees someone coming towards her. And she realizes it's her deceased husband. And behind him is standing her deceased parents. And he leans in and kisses her. And at that moment, she loses this anxiety about what all of these leavings will mean for her. And she emerges from that psilocybin experience with a completely altered relationship to dying.

[A]

Wow. It's really just such a remarkable gift to these women.

[D]

The other woman in the film is Flavia. She also had an incredibly positive experience in her psilocybin session. And afterwards, she was really interested to connect with some indigenous knowledge holders who could talk to her about their understanding of what to expect at the end of life. And so we connected her with Sergio Peches, whose a Mayan shaman and artist, and he shares through painting the Mayan understanding of that tradition and understanding of what will happen at the end of life and after.

[A]

And here's that clip from the film translated into English.

[E]

This is the painting I'll be explaining with a lot of love for Flavia. My story begins with the life and death of the Mayans. Here the person has passed away. Her body becomes still in that moment, but the wheel continues turning in other dimensions. The wheel tells her she must continue her journey as a being who is no longer with us. This is when she gives away her being to the universe. Nothing belongs to her anymore. Everything is returned to the universe. But she doesn't feel fear. She's not alone. She's going to go through a process where time does not exist. I believe what we call time is ruled by the universe. Every living being is governed by. By a form of a cycle. We don't disappear or die. We simply recycle life. And the gift that life gives you is the power to know that we don't cease to exist. We continue in this world.

[A]

Wow. That's so beautiful.

[D]

And so, in Flavia's last days, both Sergio and his brother Daniel, who's also a shaman, were sending messages to Flavia to offer instruction, really, about that process as she went through it. It was undoubtedly helpful. Wow.

[A]

So for many people who are raised in Western culture and have a fear of death, one way of reconciling that fear could be to connect with these ancient ways of understanding this passage into the next form.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What about after someone passes? Like, for those who are left behind and have a loved one that they're still grieving. Is there anything you've observed as being specifically helpful to those who are in the midst of, you know, what can be really crippling grief?

[D]

Every single person, without fail, who I interviewed who had seen the body of the person who died, either they'd been there when the death had happened, or they come a Little bit afterwards, put their hands on that body and knew and said the same thing. They were gone. Like, word for word. Just that touch helps. We know something through our physicality that needs to be comprehended by our minds that are dealing with this extreme pain. The things that are so challenging is that so much of what we've done in the funeral industry is to remove ourselves from that, from seeing the dead or just touching them or combing their hair for the last time. And some wonderful people working in this industry are doing now is encouraging participation because they have to overcome our fear of even seeing a dead body. I think we've moved ourselves so far away because of fear, and we've intensified our fear by doing that.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And honestly, that's why I made this film, because very early on in my life, I realized that I did not have a fear that I saw could have a crippling effect on people who lost someone suddenly. And I've been lucky enough to be called into communities where and understanding of what the end of life could be, what it does hold, what we may experience, is held in an entirely different way. And I wanted through this film to try and do my best to thread that lack of knowledge back together, honestly, to try and help.

[A]

I love that. And I think it's so important in so many ways. Right. Because it feels like this moment is a time of remembering and reconnecting to knowledge and understanding of what we've lost.

[D]

One of the palliative care experts in our film is someone you've also spoken to in one of your episodes, Christopher Kerr. And he so beautifully states, this is not new knowledge, this is lost knowledge.

[A]

Yeah, he is so great. He was interviewed a few episodes back and shared, like, the most incredible insights that were data driven, you know, from research about the visions people see as they approach death. And I guess, you know, that brings up the question, so if anyone is grappling with a fear of death, right, and can't or don't want to have a psychedelic experience, are there other additional steps that can start improving their relationship to death?

[D]

You know, the things I would do is if you are somewhere where you can connect with Indigenous people, find them. This is known to them. They have not lost this knowledge. And if they're willing to share with you, find them. That capacity to hold this state open and to see the loss of it in our culture is very well known to many Indigenous people. And if you are facing death, build your interior landscape, even the practice of meditation, spend time in your own mind. Learn how to contemplate without being distracted by the entire screen world around us. That is calling us into distraction because there's a place of knowing that you can access. Takes time, takes practice, but it's there for all of us.

[A]

Yeah, that's beautiful. Under reflex guidance that we've heard over and over around these questions that we've been exploring on our show. And that guidance is simple. Right. It's about looking inward, trying to be mindful about regulating our bodies, our emotions, our thoughts, and just being quiet. So, yeah, I love that.

[D]

Yeah. I think we're coming to a time culturally where we're going to need all of this more because we're careering into some challenging times with a plethora of technologies that we have no idea how they're going to impact us culturally and socially. And we can lose things. We can lose things from culture and the loss of those things generations down, we may not even know they're gone, but the loss of them impacts us in our sense of self and sense of happiness.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I think about that all the time. Like when TV came out, people stopped congregating in dance halls and before air conditioning was widespread, people gathered on front porches. And now people are losing their appreciation for long form storytelling because they prefer, you know, a 30 second reel or whatever. And then you go, way before that, we could navigate from the stars. And now people don't even know how to use a paper map. So it's like, what are the ramifications of technology and advancement when we keep losing skills that really connect us to nature and who we are? And it sounds like through technology and advancements and all that stuff, we've also lost our comfortability around things that are supernatural. Like death.

[D]

Yeah, foreign.

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[D]

So I met this incredible anthropologist at Brown University when I was doing research there, Padja Foudhry. I was telling her what I was doing, and I was researching this work, and she said to me that we do not understand in the west how people like the Mazatec held open this portal to accessing altered states, even during the first Spanish invasions of their territory, even at risk of torture and death.

[A]

And what she's referring to here is that even after the Spanish arrived in the 16th century and began suppressing indigenous spiritual practices, the Mazatec didn't abandon their ceremonies. Instead, they protected them, bringing their mushroom rituals, which were central to healing and communication with the divine underground. And through that were able to carry them forward through generations.

[D]

You know, it's a historical note, but it impacted me immensely because of the why of that right. Because the why of that means we need this. We need it. Maybe it's a human right to have access to a direct experience of the mystical. That's what I have come to believe. Which doesn't mean that you have to have that experience, but the removal of knowing that an extended experience of what this reality is is available to you, that's an enormous loss. And so it has caused me to think about this idea of the direct experience of the mystical. And I don't know if you've talked to Brian Morescu, who has done that work about trying to look at whether Western culture ever used psychedelics in any way and whether that was a part of Pre Christian and early Christian history.

[A]

Yeah. We interviewed Brian in season two, episode seven. He's amazing. And he's a researcher who wrote the book the Immortality Key, which argued that in the west, especially at Lucius in ancient Greece, and probably in early Christian and Jewish rituals as well, they likely use psychoactive substances like potions or even in the form of wine to induce these mystical experiences that cause people to not be afraid, afraid of death anymore. And I really encourage people to go back and check out that episode, season two, episode seven, because it looks at how deeply ingrained mysticism and connection with the divine or those who pass has always been in cultures around the world. And so what you're saying is like a global piece of information that's been lost.

[D]

Yes. So part of Western culture. Right. And I think he is suggesting that once Christianity was formalized around 300 and something ad that those practices of an active ingredient were removed. So the questions around this direct experience of the mystical, I think is important because it's available to us. And it seems that a lot of organized religion has stood in between you and your direct experience of that mystical. There's much to be explored there about what has impacted Western culture and what do we need to do to retrieve our experience of the transcendent.

[A]

I think it's incredible what you're pointing out. It's so profound. And you know what's funny, as you're talking, it makes me think about how over the years, our burial practices and even the funeral industry have undergone, like, a huge shift. I mean, before the Civil War, most people were buried at home and quickly. But when soldiers started dying away from their families, we began to embalm or chemically preserve the bodies so that they could be returned. But that was still, you know, pretty uncommon. And then when Abe Lincoln was assassinated, like, everything changed, and it changed the funeral industry, and it changed our death practices in America forever because they paraded President Lincoln's body around the country for public viewing and. And they needed to embalm him. So millions of Americans saw a preserved body, and many for the first time. And then this sort of became like a symbol of reverence and a mainstream standard in how Americans handled death and funerals. And it became a way of honoring the dead. So things are always changing. And it was a cultural shift.

[D]

And things can change again, it's true. And we'll have to change as we deal with other challenges, whether burial plots remain the same. People always got buried. Now many more people get cremated. And these changes come about because there's Cultural need and pressure on space and things change historically, but we get stuck in our present moment, and we think it's always been that way. And I'm hoping there's some change happening around quantum physics that is opening us up to this extended sensation of reality. The capacity of particles to know what another particle is doing while separate from it. Sounds a lot like telepathy, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Like science is moving in a direction that might help us also comprehend these states that we have until now, not had many words to describe, but talking to the people who've experienced these states, it's a huge key.

[A]

Absolutely.

[D]

In Western culture, I would say fear is the biggest challenge to rewrite our understanding of what death is and what it can be. Gosh.

[A]

And what. What beautiful work you're doing to help facilitate that change. Thank you. And if people want to see amazing Lynette Walworth's upcoming film Edge of Life, it will be coming out very soon on Apple tv. And by the time you hear this, it might be out already.

[D]

We could just be so much better at this. Let's hope.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's just another paradigm to shift. Right. That death doesn't have to be terrifying. And to many cultures around the world, it's not. And they've kept the portals open to the other side that help them accept the cycle of life.

[D]

So I'm glad that we're having these kinds of conversations. Yeah, it's done.

[A]

I think so, too. Thank you so much, Lynette, for this conversation.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

This Friday, an exclusive episode will be released on our subscriber only, Backstage Pass. Here's a clip from that episode. Hey, all, this is Kai and my team printed out a bunch of your questions for and ask me anything. So I have them all here and I'll go through them as best as I can. The first. First is, when will the documentary be released? Well, I have all sorts of news on that. So we're finishing up our color correction, making everything look great. And tomorrow I'm finishing the audio mix, which is, you know, we level out all the different sound effects and the music and the dialogue and voiceover and that type of thing, and then all those pieces get put back together and we should have a finished film in May, which is exciting. We will start submitting to film festivals and hopefully start to do some impact screenings where we can bring it to communities who are really excited to see it. We might even do a few, like, small theatrical releases, releases that are targeted around the country. I'm hoping all that stuff will happen like end of summer, early fall, and then Q1 of next year. We hope to have it on a streamer that can be accessed around the world by as many people as possible. We're already working with different post services that can translate the film into as many captions and languages as possible, so we hope to get it out to any of you, no matter where you're at. The next question is what do non speakers think about extraterrestrial theories? If you'd like to hear more, subscribe to become an exclusive member at the link in the episode's description. That's it for this episode of the Talk Tracks, but new episodes will be released every Wednesday, so stay tuned as we work to unravel all the threads, even the veiled ones that knit together our reality. And please remember to stay kind, stay curious, and that being a true skeptic requires an open mind. Thank you to my amazing collaborators, producers Kathryn Ellis and Selena Kennedy. Technical Directing, Audio, mix and finishing by Jeremy Cole, Opening and closing music by Elizabeth PW and original logo and cover art by Ben Condora. Design I'm Kai Dickens, your executive producer, writer and host. VRBO makes it easy to claim your dream summer spot with early booking deals, from homes with pools to poolside loungers. When you book a vrbo, you don't have to reserve any loungers. They're all yours. All you have to do is book early.

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