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- [00:00]
Sean Cannell
Hey, before we jump into the show, I wanted to give you a heads up that my free YouTube strategy class is available right now on demand@thinkmasterclass.com on the class, I reveal the one YouTube strategy we use at Think Media to generate over 330,000 views every single day. So if you're new to YouTube, this will help you start right and avoid mistakes. And if you're a YouTube pro, this training will help you multiply your growth. This class is 100% free and you can watch it now on demand@thinkmasterclass.com now let's jump into today's show. Your YouTube channel might be at risk. And in this episode of the Think Media podcast, we're going to be talking about the legal side of YouTube. We're going to be talking about some things that every creator needs to know so that they don't get sued and don't get in trouble and some of the biggest legal mistakes creators make. But we're going to be kicking it off with also some of just the fundamentals mentals to make sure that your YouTube channel, your online business and your personal brand is in order right up front. Our guest today is Tyler Chow, back on the podcast. She's the creator's attorney. And Tyler, how do you introduce yourself at parties?
- [01:14]
Tyler Chow
Thanks for that question, Sean. I'm so excited to be on again. Our last conversation was so fun and it's really good to see that people really responded well to it. So this is how I introduce myself. I am the creator's attorney. My life's mission is to protect creators and bring them to seven figure businesses. I've been an attorney in Hollywood for last 16 years and I started my own YouTube channel two years ago and then I fell in love with the space and realized that a lot of creators are being taken advantage of and don't know what they don't know. And so it's really my goal to educate and protect creators and our conversation I think hopefully does that. Well.
- [01:54]
Sean Cannell
I'm excited to dive into some juicy topics. You some of the things creators get stuck on is maybe FTC guidelines and disclosures and affiliate marketing. Sometimes they can get in trouble with brands and creators are getting scammed by brands a lot too, like maybe fake brands that are sliding into their DMS and their email inbox. But I actually just want to start off at a high level based on some questions from our past episode on the business of content creation. And so what are the most important legal agreements or contracts that YouTubers should have in place if they're starting out well.
- [02:27]
Tyler Chow
I think we touched upon this in the last conversation. I think doing llc, I think employment agreements are really important. So if you have anyone working for you, whether they be editors, producers, script writers, anything that is creating content for you, I think they need to be under those contracts. I think some NDAs are helpful, right? If you want to send cease and desist to people who might be sharing confidential information that they learn while working with you or even just talking to you. Right. Like maybe you want to partner with somebody or start a channel with somebody and you share information and ideas or about your channel or products or anything like. I think NDAs are really important. I think, you know, those are kind of just high level. What, what they need. And you know, we talked about what. What do creators need? They need to pay their taxes, they need to have general liability insurance, defamation insurance. And I think trademarks are really important. I mean it's not a contract, but it is a legal protection. Because as we see the future flood of creators who are going to come in, I mean, you look at all the laid off tech people, you look at traditional Hollywood where there's less and less TV and film now I'm sure you've heard it. People are like wanting to come into the creator space to create content because I think that's the American dream, where you can. Where else do you get to make a video where millions of people will see it? Right. That. That's YouTube.
- [03:58]
Sean Cannell
The dream is real. And the creator economy is estimated to grow and double even in the next couple of years. And you're referencing part one of our conversation, which I'll link to in the show notes and I encourage listeners to check that out after this episode. But when it comes to contractors, let's say you hired somebody on Upwork. Probably one of the most common things is somebody jumps on an online fiver.com do you think you're liable or vulnerable if you just outsource some editing or thumbnail design to someone on Fiverr and you don't have a contract with them?
- [04:32]
Tyler Chow
That's a great question. I have not looked at the terms of service for Fiverr or upwork. I would hope that they have some type of language in there, but I don't know. Right. I think it is so much better to have a template. And I am actually selling. I mean, you know, based off of your. Our last conversation, so many people reached out to me that now I am. I didn't before, but I will start selling a shorter template. Right. Versus the kind of full length ones that I do for my clients where you can just have them sign. It's a short one where it says everything you do for me is owned by me. Because what you don't want is for them to have your content that they're either editing for you or filming for you. And they say, well, I own that because for whatever reason they believe so. And if you don't have a piece of paper that says otherwise, then I think that leaves you exposed.
- [05:28]
Sean Cannell
Yeah, that's super smart. And we'll link to your resources in the description down below. And I just think about these types of investments are just critical because it might seem upfront like ah, this is that, you know, this is all that details, I just want to make videos. But protecting yourself is huge. And reference episode number one to check out. You mentioned, you know, maybe don't have to start AN LLC Day one, but didn't you say maybe if you're earning one or $2,000 a month consistently and you're maybe hiring in a video editor or somebody that you really want to start having this stuff in order?
- [06:02]
Tyler Chow
Well, I actually wanted to, to clarify that. I actually just meant one or two thousand a year like because I think that's how much it costs to set up an out. I mean it's even less than if you, it's probably a few hundred dollars to set up an llc. I think if you, here's the threshold. If you own your house, you, if you own a 401k, if you own any assets that you don't want to be touched during a litigation or someone who's suing you, let's say you do a brand deal and you get, they get sick. You know, let's say it's a supplement. I'm making this up, right? Like it's a supplement. They get sick, they're going to sue you, they're going to sue the brand. If you don't have an LLC up that veils that protects you, then your personal assets might get touched. And here's the thing, you will say, well, how could I get sued? This is the beauty and nightmare living in the US Right? You can sue and be sued by anyone. And once you get sued, you have to hire an attorney to defend you in that litigation. And I have a client right now who did nothing wrong, who was just a simple employee. He's paid over a hundred thousand dollars trying to defend himself, trying to get out of this lawsuit and he's had to file bankruptcy because he has no money left. But he still has to keep borrowing money basically to try to defend himself. Because if you don't defend yourself, then a default judgment gets entered against you and that follows you for life. Every job that you go to will, they will take that paycheck. So it's something you can't just get sued and say, well, I'm just not going to defend myself. Which I think a lot of people might think, well, I had nothing to do with it. Once you're named in a complaint, you have to answer and you have to defend yourself.
- [07:41]
Sean Cannell
And so LLC stands for Limited Liability Company. If you have one, then like, worst case scenario, your LLC goes bankrupt. Worst case scenario, that protection is crushed. But your assets, your house, your cars are not touched, correct?
- [08:00]
Tyler Chow
Yes. And whatever, you know, money you might have in your banking bank, a checking account for the business that, you know, whatever assets the business owns might be touched. So if you have a lot of equipment, I mean, look, most of us don't have, maybe not you, I think you're different. But I don't own, you know, I probably own a couple thousand dollars worth of equipment. Right. And that might be touched, but that's really it. Whatever the business owns.
- [08:26]
Sean Cannell
Which as a side note, at a much lower legal level, I know my wife, who's our cfo, has been so helpful on handling a lot of the details of our business. It's funny to say CFO too. Like kids, I'm the CEO. We were just talking about today, like, but, you know, whatever. We're just trying to figure this thing out. But there was some stuff we did, at least early on. This isn't legal protection, but we. If you do have a lot of equipment you're investing in, you want to list that on maybe your homeowner's insurance. And if we're up to, you know, or renters insurance, most probably don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. But over time it's easy to have 5, 10, 15, $20,000 a gear. And that's just kind of a tip to be thoughtful. If you have serial numbers, photos, some things like that of the stuff that you have, again, that just might be some protection. Okay, so different legal agreements that they could get in place. What about intellectual property? As content creators are thinking about A, what they're saying in their videos themselves, B, maybe they put what they know into an online course, they write a book, and then C, maybe they try to create some original characters or whatnot. And I've heard a big debate in this arena that, like, it's kind of hard to defend IP of your ideas at some point. But what are your thoughts on this?
- [09:45]
Tyler Chow
So ideas are not protected. You are correct. However, did you know that every time we put a video up on YouTube, it is automatically copyrighted? You don't have to go to the copyright office. And you can, by the way. You can, but no one will really do that unless you. You do a movie that's an hour long and you think this could be pirated or it could. I need to protect this. You could officially go to the copyright office and get it copyrighted. But every time we put out our videos on YouTube, it is automatically protected. So anything you put in a tangible form, whether it be a book, a video, a song that's, that's broadcasted, those are protected. But an idea, you're right. Like you and I talking about an idea that's not protected. So for the things that you've mentioned, I think names, mottos, you know, sayings. There are things about a business that you could protect through a trademark or a patent if it's. It's something that is protected, protectable by a patent.
- [10:53]
Sean Cannell
You made a video too about a saying and you suggested there was a creator that actually should trademark her saying because it started to be used as a meme. Do you remember that story?
- [11:02]
Tyler Chow
Yes. The very dreamer, very mindful. So I got into a fight with another lawyer on LinkedIn because he said, well, that's gonna, that's just a fleeing, you know, fancy, you don't need to protect that. Anybody could have said that and anybody could have made it blow up like that. And I disagree because I think Jules is a certain type of creator who a lot of people respect and like. And I think because she said that saying, it became very viral and I believe so the story, in case people don't know, some third party unrelated to the original creator went and basically stole it and went to trademark it. And I thought that was incredibly wrong because this person is just a bad actor. I say lazy, right? You're just stealing people's trending saying. And I really urge Jules and her team to go trademark it because I think once you have that, you are more valuable. I always want my clients, my creator clients to think about themselves as a business and think about an exit in mind. Most creators probably won't make content for the rest of their lives. They like it. But as you know, after five years, 10 years, it really, you know, is, can. Can be a recipe for burnout if you're only relying on AdSense and brand deals. If you have your own business, you're launching your own products, then you have more control over it. But I think a lot of buyers like private equity funds who want to buy channels or buy businesses that creators create. They like to look at your ip, what have you trademark, what do you own? And having a portfolio of trademarks makes your business just so much more valuable.
- [12:50]
Sean Cannell
I love that mindset. Before we go on to the next category, I'm curious for those listening that want to think of this as a long term business and want to be smart and listening to this podcast, of course an hour of legal advice is a thousand dollars plus. So this podcast is, you know, super, super valuable to think about. And of course this is also not official device advice.
- [13:14]
Tyler Chow
This is not legal advice.
- [13:16]
Sean Cannell
Yes it is in general, but priceless nonetheless. Out of your clients, of course, leaving them anonymous, what are the issues? Like where are they failing? What are the things that if they would have done it differently, they wouldn't be in the trouble they are with now. And we get the price of advice of maybe learning from their mistakes. Do you want to get your first or next 1000 subscribers on YouTube faster? For the first time ever, we are hosting a free one day event at VideoGrowthday.com during this one day online event you will learn our step by step YouTube success system for getting views, subscribers and making money. You'll get to connect with the Think Media team and be a part of community conversation and a bunch of cool giveaways. And you'll leave with your personalized YouTube game plan for success. So to register, just go to videogrowthday.com or click the link in the show notes. Now let's jump back into the episode.
- [14:12]
Tyler Chow
What a great question. One of the biggest things that I'm doing is unwinding partnership situations. You start a YouTube channel with your best friend, a few years later you have a falling out. You want to exit somebody out of the channel. So who owns the channel? Most of the time there isn't a contract in place and that becomes a problem. Then it becomes a, a race to, well, who has control of the YouTube channel? Who can, you know, like block out access? I don't want that to happen. Just have a partnership agreement from day one. Agree that you both own 50% of the channel. Agree that if someone no longer wants to do it, they can buy the other person out. Or there just has to be some exit strategy as to what happens when you want to wind the channel down or if you want to stay on and somebody else wants to leave or if you want to take different direction, what happens when you have a dispute in your 50 50, do you bring in a third party to help you resolve that? I mean, these are mechanisms that I can put in place in a partnership agreement. I'm unwinding a lot of these predatory agreements out there where these companies are giving loans to creators. I don't know if you know about these, Sean, but they're loans with really, really loan shark like terms. They have to keep making content at a certain pace. And if they don't, then these companies threaten to take their channels away. They go talk to brands that they're working with to badmouth them. I mean, this is a very dark. I'm probably going to make a whole video about this, but it's a very dark thing that's happening with, to a lot of creators right now. And I'm really worried and angry about it. And I'm really debating if I want to call these companies out on LinkedIn and just kind of openly say, stop doing this. But I'm, I'm on the fence about it.
- [16:12]
Sean Cannell
Would you not say a name of a company here?
- [16:14]
Tyler Chow
No, I, I would definitely would not. What are the.
- [16:16]
Sean Cannell
But if you, I'm sorry, like the terms. So then what are maybe like. So what they're doing is they're giving you a loan, but then in the fine print too, they've got some stuff that's maybe like. And if you don't, we get your channel or if you don't. And then as, and then we have maybe high interest kind of things and stuff. That's.
- [16:33]
Tyler Chow
It's the termination. You. There was one client where he got $100,000. 50% of it was taken away in taxes because of the way they.
- [16:47]
Sean Cannell
Structured it.
- [16:48]
Tyler Chow
They structured it and it was a $50,000 termination fee. And my client was almost on the verge of a nervous breakdown by the time he came to me. And I went to, basically I went to battle against this company and I said. And they took more money than they should have. They took it from his brand deals. And so I said, let's go, let's go to court. I would love to get you in front of a judge. And I actually was able to get my client out of that deal without paying a dime. Because I said, I threatened, I didn't threaten them. I just said, let's go, let's go in front of a judge and let's talk about all the money you've taken. Let's talk about how fair this is. And my client, I've had a lot of creator clients cry to me and I'm so grateful that I can make such a deep difference in their lives because sometimes they have no idea what to do, like when they lose their channels or when they get demonetized or copyright strikes. The fact that I can sometimes help is really, really meaningful and it makes a world of difference for me.
- [17:49]
Sean Cannell
Man, this is so good. So be very careful about going into partnerships and business and in YouTube channels and sit down with somebody to get a partnership agreement from day one. Avoid predatory loans and be really thoughtful there. And so those are such good pieces of advice. I want to talk about influencer marketing and FTC guidelines. Of course, anybody listening to this, even if they're just starting and even if they post a video on YouTube or anywhere on social media, we've all seen it where maybe you're supposed to say hashtag ad and do you give a verbal disclaimer disclosure. But if we dig in, I mean, a couple stories Back in 2019, there was the landmark case where YouTube finds fined. YouTube was fined for violating COPPA, the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act. And that was an FTC thing ultimately. And that shifted things a lot. We had in 2022, the Kardashians were warned for failing to properly disclose paid partnerships on social media. And in 2023, the FTC updated its endorsement guides to clarify disclosure requirements for influencers, emphasizing clear and conspicuous disclosure. Any material connection to brands at a high level. What do you think the mistakes or what are creators need to know about affiliate marketing, brand deals, disclosures and maybe where they could get into trouble here?
- [19:17]
Tyler Chow
So there was a third bucket that I forgot to mention from the last question, which is something else I'm really working on with creators is equity deals. I think if you're a high level creator who is doing five to six figure brand deals, you should be asking for equity. And so I just wanted to highlight that because a lot of creators, I will say this to them, huge creators and they will say, oh, I had no idea I could be asking for equity. But I think Alex Earl taking equity in Poppy, Joe Rogan taking equity in Carnivore Snacks. And of course there's 50 Cent who took, you know, equity in Vitamin Water and had a very nice exit. I think I just want to put that on, on the map for creators at least.
- [19:58]
Sean Cannell
But I'm clear that's kind of also, rather than like a mistake to avoid a bad partnership, it's a mistake to just take five figures for a brand deal instead of Thinking about equity because you might be getting the short end of the deal and creators, this is probably at least for mid size creators would you say? Probably it's going to be 10,000 or five figures. You're doing $50,000 deals probably on the higher end.
- [20:22]
Tyler Chow
However, if you, and this is something I truly believe in, you don't have to be a huge creator to have a huge impact. Right? I know you, you agree with this. Are small creators out there who are such experts in their space. Like this morning I spoke to a tennis creator. She's not a huge creator but she has such deep impact with tennis brands and so they, so just, you know, she might have, let's say she has 10,000, I don't know actually 10,000 on YouTube but her, but her impact and she has gotten equity. So my point is don't necessarily tie what I just said to. Oh, I shouldn't think about this. No, you should be thinking about it from day one. If you're an expert who's just starting their YouTube channel, but you are are a doctor or a lawyer or a mechanic or engineer who can give advice to these startups who are starting, then you can ask for equity from day one. Don't just think because I have a small channel or I haven't been doing brand deals. Think about your position and your value to the company coming to you, wanting to work with you. If you're like my client the tennis creator, she's a small creator but she has so much value because she's been a tennis player for 20 years. So like think about it that way, right? Like what is the value you're giving to the company? Don't think I shouldn't ask for this, ask for everything. All they can do is say no. But I think you should be thinking about equity way sooner than most creators are thinking about it.
- [21:47]
Sean Cannell
So if we go, if we go a little bit deeper on that, we'll come back to the disclosures. I think like this kind of makes me think of also UGC creators and just the idea that user generated content is a whole niche in and of itself and you, the person, your ability to create videos, your, the way you look, the way you sound, your charisma, your history and what you're saying too, your expertise. You might be day one on YouTube or social, you might have a thousand subscribers, you're growing that up. But your depth and your expertise, what would it cost for that brand to hire you? If they hired you, they'd probably give you a six figure salary. If you Went and worked for them full time as a face, as a voice with that level of authority.
- [22:29]
Tyler Chow
Yes.
- [22:30]
Sean Cannell
So Now a small YouTube channel is worth way over six figures, depending on your background. And in that case, now you're able to maybe negotiate from a different perspective, am I thinking correctly?
- [22:44]
Tyler Chow
Totally. Because we're seeing more professionals starting YouTube channels. Right. Who have an expertise in something. So I think. I love that example you gave. Think of it as six figures. I tell my clients when they're about to accept equity deals that it should be cash plus equity. And the cash is basically the services you're providing. If they're asking you for five to 10 hours a month, equate that to what is your hourly rate. If they're wanting your expertise, if they're wanting you to go talk to people in the tennis space or go talk to this manufacturer or give us advice on, as a tennis expert, how would you figure out X, Y and Z? This is something that they do not have information. And then you typically would pay a consultant, right? Companies pay consultants all the time for their expertise. So think of yourself as a consultant to the company. And what would you ask in that sense? So I think sometimes asking 2 to $5,000 a month for your expertise, depending on your level plus equity is very.
- [23:47]
Sean Cannell
Fair if we stay on brand deals. At what point do you think it's essential to get an attorney involved? And one of your passions is helping creators earn more money? And is it your belief that most creators could also just charge more besides just equity if they understood things better or maybe had a second opinion, an outside perspective like yours?
- [24:09]
Tyler Chow
Totally. I have a client on LinkedIn who's huge. And when I first met him, he was making probably two to three times less. And he asked, and I asked him, I said, how much are you asking for your posts on LinkedIn? And he said something less than four figures. And I said to him, you should be making four to five figures. And because of that one advice from me, he started asking for more. I think most creators just don't ask for enough money. They think, oh my goodness, someone wants to give me $500 for a video. Amazing. If you ask the brand what their budget was and how many creators are in the campaign, those two questions could probably help you figure out how much you should ask for. When I step into a deal, I usually 2 to 4x the original offer because I asked a bunch of questions and I just. I have no problem asking for more money for my clients now. A lot of us have trouble asking for more money. For ourselves, I don't know what psychological block there is. We just feel like we're not worthy or entitled to that. I have no trouble. Someone offers you 10,000, I could say 50,000. Like I have no trouble doing that. So if you have a manager or an attorney who can do that for you, I think that would be very helpful to just get you away from that lower, you know, current price that you have yourself set up.
- [25:30]
Sean Cannell
I bet 99% of creators can relate to that, including myself. I think on the one hand I intrinsically know my value, but yet I still hedge a little bit. And that's partly the power of the third person is just to kind of represent you and not flinch, like not kind of waffle around a little bit. So I'm like, oh, and the creator in me is also, you know. Yeah, like still hustling, still kind of maybe sometimes thinking small. You just get somebody that's objectively more disconnected from it with expertise, like yourself. And it's pretty wild to think that from a little bit different, a little bit of difference in negotiation that you could just instantly start charging two to three times more per brand deal, no matter what size of creator you are, simply because of understanding your value. Is there things that happen that you notice where brands essentially how creators could avoid getting screwed over by brands because of contracts or terms or things that have happened to your clients?
- [26:26]
Tyler Chow
I think most creators, especially younger ones, don't, I mean newer ones don't understand usage rights or you know, just white, you know, white listing boosting things that are. In addition, they just think, oh, I'm just giving you a video. But you, you don't realize what the brand takes your video and does with it. And a lot of times that part the creator gets screwed on because they say, okay, here's $1,000 and then the brand ends up using it. They don't even realize that you can ask for usage. Usage is 10 to 30% of the base price for every 30 days. If they want control of your channel or they want to put paid ads behind you, that's something you should ask for more money. And I think a lot of creators don't even understand what those are. And sometimes brands or the agencies that they hire to manage the campaign sometimes will not pay. Creators, that's also something I deal with a lot for big creators is six figure brand deals not getting paid. Typically the brand will pay, but they will pay the agency. And then the agency holds onto it and doesn't pay because for whatever reason. Right. Bad management. But they will do then do this terrible Ponzi pyramid where they will pay a creator from their last paycheck, even though it wasn't the paycheck for that creator. Right. And they, it just, it's a bad trickle down effect. So, and I, I've known a lot of creators who are not paid and it's five hundred or a thousand dollars or two thousand and they think, well, I'm, what's the point? It's going to cost me that much to hire an attorney anyway. I would say that, you know, it costs me not that much of my time to send a letter out for a lot of creators. I've done that. I've done just a one, one time demand letter. And they typically pay, sometimes they don't pay the full price, but at least you're getting something because their, their sob story will be, well, we're going under or we're struggling, but here's 50% and that's better than nothing.
- [28:35]
Sean Cannell
It's, it's interesting because I think creators listening to this might not realize how common it is that maybe you could struggle getting paid from brands. Them not paying it could be bad management. And we've learned too that good brands that usually typically end up paying, sometimes three months passes, six months passes, sometimes it's taken a year to actually get payment. You know, there's like a French Montana and Drake song that says, hopping out the jet Lears, don't call me till the check clears. And one of the things I've learned is that until the check clears, you don't have the money. Like until you got the money in your bank account, you don't have the money in your bank account. And that's very hard for creator businesses that like depend on like, I got this great brand deal. It might be tough if you're cash strapped though, for a year. And so having diagnosis.
- [29:30]
Tyler Chow
Totally, yeah, go ahead. And it makes me so mad because you can't go to Best Buy and buy a TV and say, I'm going to pay you in 90 days and take the TV out. It just doesn't work that way. But yet creators are being asked to basically cash flow, you know, the company sometimes for like you said, three, six, 12 months. And I used to work in Hollywood, Disney, Skydance, buzzfeed and actors don't fly until the money is in escrow at the agencies. Right. They will not get on an airplane to go on location unless that money is there. And so that is something that I would love to be able to do for creators but that's, that's, that's a whole other thing that, you know, us taking on that or even do creators join sag? I mean, that could be another conversation altogether. But I think it's, there's a lot of things that need to change and procedures need to be there. I think having advocates, I mean, I'm one person, but I do think me shouting very loudly at companies and does change their policy. There was one agency out there that was just not paying creators and I called them out, I did call them out on LinkedIn because someone else called them out. But I was doing a deal with them currently at that moment with a big creator. I said, if you don't pay. And actually because of what happened, I was able to ask for 50% upfront upon signature before we even started work because I have sort of that leverage and I can shout very loudly and I know kind of, you know, people in the industry that you can't do this to creators. And I'm a strong, I'm on that soapbox, you know, shouting for creators who can't do it themselves.
- [31:29]
Sean Cannell
This episode is brought to you by streamyard. Streamyard is our go to platform here at Think Media for live streaming to Facebook and YouTube and for recording our video podcast. It has an incredibly easy to use interface for built in branding, transitions, text, lower thirds and seamlessly bringing on guests. And they just added an awesome new feature called local recording. This allows you to take the quality to another level by separating out out your audio and video from your guests, giving you more control over your content for later use. This feature is perfect for video and podcast creators. And so to get a special deal on streamyard right now and to see all the features that are included, just go to streamwiththink.com that is streamwiththink.com I want to go back to also usage rights. To clarify, what creators don't realize is that they might do a brand deal, they get $1,000, they post a video, but in the contract that person, that brand took usage rights and now they're running paid ads using your likeness in your media. And they're doing it for the next five years or forever.
- [32:40]
Tyler Chow
Sean, right?
- [32:41]
Sean Cannell
Yeah. And that's what I wanted to ask you because young creators definitely know this, including myself. And you also don't even realize who you may become, you know, whatever. Like, so you're, you're a new creator, you're like, I just need a thousand dollars. You can't even imagine that someday you might have a silver play button or Beyond. And what might, you know, your influence be it? Let me ask you this. So if you did one of those brand deals and then can you ever get out of it? Like, if you, if you find a way, usage rights and they're still using it, you're like, okay, it's seven years later, my prominence is, you know, bigger, I'm more established. And yet they're still running ads on my likeness. And maybe their product has even gone downhill. You're like, it's been so long, I don't even. It was great then and now it's different. Times have changed, but they're still just kind of milking your likeness. What's your advice here?
- [33:30]
Tyler Chow
Or that the brand is so big now that they should be paying you? I have, I have certainly gone back to brands and companies and renegotiated those deals and I have been successful because they know what they did was wrong and they know that what they did was taking advantage. And I just say to them, this is taking advantage. Do you know that story of that actor Simu, who, you know, he, he was on the. He's one of the actors, you know, on the. He was the dragon, you know, in the Marvel, the Asian Marvel movie. And he was a. When he was starting out as an actor, he was an extra. And he did this short little commercial as, as like corporate guy number three or something. And so now that company owns. Owns that stock footage and uses it everywhere. And he tried to go back and buy the stock footage back, but because he gave in perpetuity rights, he couldn't buy it back. And they did. They were not incentivized to sell it back to him. So now they use that to run advertising. And he's a huge star now. He's a Marvel actor. That's to your point. When you're starting out as a creator, you don't think about it, but what happens in a few years if you have a million subscribers and you're doing big, big brand deals and there's this thing floating out there and that brand is so, so usage means that they can run it on their own channels, on their own websites. They can use it to basically run campaigns however they want. And it's something that I think usage rights is really important for creators to understand.
- [35:09]
Sean Cannell
Man, that's really interesting. I do want to close the loop on, on the influencer marketing FTC guidelines.
- [35:14]
Tyler Chow
Yes, yes.
- [35:15]
Sean Cannell
So disclosures. And again, I think the, the Kardashians were just warned and there's been.
- [35:21]
Tyler Chow
They were fine, Sean.
- [35:22]
Sean Cannell
Oh, they were okay, he was fined.
- [35:24]
Tyler Chow
Yeah. That they, it was like six figures because they wanted to make a, an example of her. It was a crypto campaign.
- [35:31]
Sean Cannell
Okay. And that might have. Oh, yeah. Okay. So they failed to disclose they've been paid to promote cryptocurrency investment schemes. They ended up being fined. So, so what's your advice here?
- [35:41]
Tyler Chow
Disclose so extensively. There are three ways you should, according to the FTC. You need to make sure, right. If it's on YouTube, toggle the paid promotions button. You need to say it out loud, right? This video is sponsored by X, Y and Z. You need to have it on screen somewhere or in the descriptions. I actually, actually maybe four way, four different ways. Like as many ways as you can disclose that you're being paid for this sponsorship, this review. What the FTC wants to be so careful about is they want the consumer, right. The viewers who are watching it, to understand that you, Sean, if you're talking about a product, but you were paid for it, that that's maybe going to give you a different type of review than if you were to say, I bought this with my own money. How often have you guys bought camera or whatever? And you said, we bought this because we wanted to give a neutral, you know, our neutral opinion.
- [36:44]
Sean Cannell
And it's a leveraged point because most people, I think there's mistrust or you want there to be transparency. But what level of trust can you have when you're like. And I think what a lot of people say is, they say, listen, I can totally share my opinion. This was sent to me for free. Getting paid for a product review is actually something I think we either don't do it or 99% of the time we won't do it. I'm like, there's no such thing as getting paid for a product review review. Getting a free. I mean, there is such a thing. But I'm like, I just. Now I'm, I'm incentivized because I'm getting money if I get the product free with no holds bar, right? Like, hey, I can say whatever I want. All they did was send us a review unit. And listen, here's, here's my thoughts. Yeah, I like that. And then the point is to disclose it, right?
- [37:27]
Tyler Chow
Yes. And even, and that's a great point. Even if it's free, you can say, you know, I think there's hashtag gifted or a hashtag free, you know, and, and just as long as they understand that you got it. Because sometimes even free, it's a gift. And the FTC just wants the viewer to understand, how did you get this product? And so they understand your motivations. And it's harder, I think, when it's paid or gifted to give maybe a neutral opinion about it. That, that's, that's really, that's really my opinion.
- [38:06]
Sean Cannell
So there's probably three levels. If you got paid money to review it, that's like the least bias. If you got it free. But you maybe get a lot of. I trust a lot of creators because they're like a tech review factory. They just get lots of headphones sent to them, lots of cameras sent to them, and, and they develop maybe a level of trust in their opinion. But they certainly, I think then that third level is the highest, Highest level when a creator jumps on and goes, so the camera I decided to purchase.
- [38:32]
Tyler Chow
Right.
- [38:33]
Sean Cannell
Which might also be like, hey, out of everything, this is what I spent my own money on. Or I did buy this myself, regardless. And I don't love it, or I do love it. So that is, that's interesting. Keep going.
- [38:44]
Tyler Chow
So disclose everywhere. I would say over disclose. Now. I understand a lot of times creators don't want to do that because they think, oh, it's like, annoying or it's too much information. But I would say the FTC is cracking down on creators, and I think the example you mentioned with Kim Kardashian is a good one. They're realizing, I think the FTC is realizing how much money is going into the creator marketing space, and they want to make sure that people are disclosing that they are getting paid sponsorships or that they're investors. Right. Or, you know, or they're. They're getting equity, even. That they're somehow an owner in the business, because that also will skew right their opinion about the product. If you know that Alex Earle is now a part owner in Poppy, that might, you might think, huh. Well, no wonder she likes Poppy so much. She owns part of it. I don't know. Right. I. I'm making that up, but you know what I'm saying? She might really like Poppy. But, but, but you do. The FCC just wants the consumer, the buyer, to have all the information before they decide to buy something.
- [39:58]
Sean Cannell
Yeah. And if I'm looking this up right now, it was 2023 that they had updated endorsement guides. Clear and conspicuous. Clear, easy to understand. It should be obvious to the audience that the endorser has a relationship with the brand. Conspicuous, difficult to miss. The disclosure should not be placed where people. It should be placed where people are likely to see It So you might put it at the top of the description which is where we do it. Think media. We'll say like earns commissions from affiliate links. We'll say this video is not capital, not sponsored. To actually, I mean to at least frame it like just to be clear, this video is not sponsored affiliate. We will use affiliate links pretty much all the time. Right. If it's a book or whatever. So we disclose that. So you don't want to bury it. Conspicuous would be not hidden but put it difficult to miss. And then they say being paid by the brand, getting free products or services from the brand, having a family or employment relationship with the brand, owning stock from the brand. And when it comes to affiliate marketing or when it comes to the YouTube box where it says includes paid promotion. If you purchase a product which I we buy lots of stuff off Amazon ourselves without a brand deal to review or to include in a video and the video is not sponsored, we're not getting paid. We purchase the products ourselves and we will verbally say and hey, if you want to check out any of this stuff, there's links in the description down below. Those are our affiliate links, which means we earn commissions or might earn commissions. Would we be okay not checking that YouTube box or do you think that we just always should.
- [41:32]
Tyler Chow
That's a great question and I actually will not answer it because I don't know the answer. I, I need to go actually look at the, the kind of terms and service about that because affiliate marketing is I think different in terms of what like a. What a paid promotion is because Amazon is not paying you anything. That's what a paid promotion is.
- [41:58]
Sean Cannell
Yeah. Not upfront.
- [41:59]
Tyler Chow
Right, right. Yeah. Right. But. But they're not, they haven't paid you. They haven't sent you a product. You decide to use the product and then put a link to it. I'd like to actually do a little more research. I will never say something I don't exactly know. So I want to check on that, but I don't think you need to. And I do want to answer your question about bearing the hashtags. Yes, always have it at the beginning of your. Of your description. It should be visible when they're looking at, you know, before you click on the more like it should be on in the beginning of your description because the FTC just wants to know that you are disclosing it to your audience and the audience gets to see it right away that it's not buried. And I love that you, you have the not promote. This is not promoted. I think what people have to realize, creators have to realize is FTC is coming for creators. They're realizing how much money is in this space and they want to start making an example. And as we saw from the FTX situation, I mean, a lot of creators got sued because of what happened there. And the FTC wants creators to disclose, but also maybe even do some due diligence if you're promoting a financial product like crypto. Like, you know, I, I think that's why those fines are so huge and that's why the FTC came after the creators was because finance is just, is so regulated and it's, it's people's money, it's people's entire life savings. It's, it could bankrupt people. So they take that very, very seriously, especially when it comes to finance products.
- [43:45]
Sean Cannell
If we go into that, I mean, this is a massive thing. Coffeezilla is covering Logan Paul and he's covering. He, he specializes really in a lot of crypto. Andrew Tate has said he wouldn't promote any crypto projects yet has promoted many, and now is pushing one of his own. And we are seeing a lot of influencers scamming their fans through, through crypto. A lot of finance influencers. Perhaps ignorance is not an excuse, but early on with ftx, FTX kind of fooled a lot of people. And Sam Bateman Freed, you know, it seemed like the best thing in town and yet a lot of people got screwed over on that. And there's all kinds of stuff in this space in regards to giving financial advice about stocks and things pumping up like GameStop and Bed Bath and Beyond. And there's just so much happening here. For what should creators know about this crypto space from your perspective, what are the dangers if you're a content creator talking about crypto finance? And how can creators also just stay safe so they don't get scammed or sucked into this stuff?
- [44:56]
Tyler Chow
I want to say don't do it, but I know that's maybe too, too strict. I think crypto endorsements are really tricky because you always have a chance that one of the crypto companies that you're endorsing is going to scam its buyers, its users. I know that there are a handful of kind of the legitimate ones, the bigger ones. And I will disclaim this by saying I don't own any crypto. I'm not an expert in crypto. There are maybe even crypto people who can speak better than I can. But I think you just have to be careful with any endorsement that you do actually do some research, ask around, maybe ask other finance creators if you're one. Hey, what, what do you think about this product? Do you have. I saw that you did an endorsement. Maybe that's it too, right? Is seeing who, hell, who else has done endorsements and talking to them and just doing a little bit of homework before you just decide to take a paycheck. Not a paycheck, you know, like a check from, from, from a brand because they're offering it. And, and I, and, and I think a lot of creators are smart. A lot of creators, when they get those very funky looking emails will know, is this a real brand deal? Is this a fake brand? Is this a scam? I think a lot of creators also say no to brands because they're a little scared. I mean, I certainly have clients who do that, who I'm surprised they will say no. I will bring in, I manage about 30 creators. I bring brand deals to them and some of them will just say no, I don't want to do that. You know, like sometimes it's insurance and it happens to be a big creator. Let's say it's a food creator. And she says, do I want to sell insurance? It's, it is, it is a paycheck. But you know what's a great piece of advice I love giving, giving to my clients and creators is ask your audience what products do you love? And then, and then you can go show the brand. Look, my audience loves you. Can we do a partnership and then actually do that brand deal and then your audience is blown away because you're actually listen to them. That has been very successful for a lot of my clients is to ask your audience, what, what products do you guys love right now? I'd love to check some out and then that would maybe make sense and it could be something not in their niche. And so that's, I think something that's very powerful.
- [47:21]
Sean Cannell
That is a super powerful tip. Right as we're landing the plane of the podcast, you got to listen to this whole episode because it's packed with so much value. But Tyler, I already, again, I'm only halfway through my questions and so we will get you on the calendar again. I want you to shout out your stuff in just a second and I have one final question for you. But listeners, thanks for listening to this episode. And I did my best to actually run all of last 400 comments so far on part one, which will be linked up in the show notes. I ran it through Google Gemini to kind of summarize some themes and I want to continue to listen to our Think Media podcast listeners and pass those questions along to you. So if you listen on audio, visit the YouTube version, drop in the comments on YouTube, what questions do you have about this stuff? What other topics would be helpful to cover in the future? And definitely subscribe for future episodes of the Think Media podcast. For growing your channel, getting more views, but also for staying safe and building real legacy and a solid business on solid ground. And Tyler, just acknowledge you for so much value. Now let us know what are some of the things you have going on. You've got communities, you've got resources. We'll make sure it's all itemized in the show notes, but shout out where people can connect with you for more.
- [48:45]
Tyler Chow
So you can find me on my YouTube channel called Tyler Chow, the creator's attorney. I'm very active on LinkedIn. I'm actually writing on there several times a week. I try to write every day and just kind of everything week cover. Today I do on LinkedIn. I am starting a community and I think really based on our last conversation, Sean, it's shown me that creators really do need a space where they can come get legal advice that they can maybe talk to other creators as they're starting out or even further along in their journey. And I think I'm going to launch the actually, I'm going to open it up. I think I'm gonna have a Black Friday sale. So if you join, then it'll be at a discounted rate. But I'm probably going to launch it in either December or January. It's going to be on Mighty Networks and it will be, it will feature myself live probably twice a month. We'll have just a huge Q and A for creators to come in. One of my cre. One of my clients, Jenny Hoyas, will probably, you know, some of my clients will come on and answer questions. Cassandra Banks is another client on, you know, how grow your channel, how questions, brand deals, you know, different things. And I really think that creators should diversify their ways of making money and launching a product. I'm actually helping one creator launch a cereal right now and another one do press on nails. Like I'm just getting to be an expert in all these different things. So I'll cover kind of in those 12 months with me in my community how to launch a production and how to do different things to make money. Like I'm being the guinea pig. I'm doing the community to see like this is a good idea, capture Your email list. I think that's so important. Start asking your audience for their emails and do affiliates. I mean, I think, Sean, you're really good at that. I'm just starting to do that. One of the products I really love right now is called High level. It's a CRM. It's a system that it's replaced my calendar, my DocuSign, it sends out mass SMS for your YouTube and Instagram audience. And I've been using it and I love it. And so check them out. I'll, you know, we can hopefully have the links down below, but I will have the wait list for my community. I'll share that with you, Sean, and maybe you can put in the, in the description. That would be great because I think it's something that a lot of people are asking for and you'll be able to buy templates from me as well, like independent contractors, employee NDAs, anything. I'm very much. Hey, Tyler, I need this as a creator and I will really think about making that for you because this is my life's mission, is to protect creators and grow you guys all to be seven figure creators.
- [51:31]
Sean Cannell
Well, we'll make sure that all of that is in the show notes. One short answer to the final question. What do you think is the right mindset for creators in 2025? Or what is the mindset going into the opportunity, but also maybe how they could navigate in terms of seizing the opportunity and staying safe in the Creator economy in 2025?
- [51:52]
Tyler Chow
I think 2025 will be a huge year for creators. I think there's just so much focus. I mean, I was at the Forbes and Walmart upfronts this week. I mean, the huge, you know, a huge brand is wanting to just work with creators. There were probably 50 creators who were brought in to kind of introduce themselves and it was electrifying. And all this money is pouring in. Private equity funds. Holly, like traditional. I had a conversation yesterday, was one of the, like this huge studio owner who wants to know how to start a YouTube channel. I mean, like, it blew me away. I mean, he's a dad at my son's school, but he was like, I was sharing with him what I was doing. He's like, oh my God, I have to buy you lunch because I want to find out how to start a YouTube channel. I mean, he has such an established brand. If I said his name, you would lose your mind. But I'm going to not. And he's the biggest horror producer out there. I'll just leave it at that. And this is where everyone is looking. They all, everyone wants to become creators. So if you already started your YouTube channel, you're already ahead of all of these people who want to become creators. All the tech people who've been laid off, all the kids, all, all the teenagers, all of the traditional TV and film people who are out of work right now because film and TV is drastically been slashed with production. They all want to come into the YouTube space because like I said, it's the American dream. Where else can you make a video and millions of people can see it immediately? There's nowhere else. And so I think, be excited, realize that you're in the right place, Sean. And Think Media is such an amazing resource for you as you're starting. So I'm just, I'm so excited for all the creators who are listening.
- [53:44]
Sean Cannell
Future is bright for the creator economy. In the creator economy, like rate, review, subscribe for future episodes. My name is Sean Cannell, your guide to building a profitable YouTube channel. And this is the Think Media podcast. We'll catch you in the next one.