← The Think Media Podcast
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- [00:00]
Sean Cannell
Hey, before we jump into the show, I wanted to give you a heads up that my free YouTube strategy class is available right now on demand@thinkmasterclass.com on the class, I reveal the one YouTube strategy we use at Think Media to generate over 330,000 views every single day. So if you're new to YouTube, this will help you start right and avoid mistakes. And if you're a YouTube pro, this training will help you multiply your your growth. This class is 100% free and you can watch it now on demand@think masterclass.com now let's jump into today's show.
- [00:38]
Jake Thomas
We doubled or like 5, 10x their views just by writing new titles.
- [00:43]
Sean Cannell
This expert has spent thousands of hours analyzing viral titles and the psychology behind getting clicks.
- [00:51]
Jake Thomas
You know, the three kind of click worthy emotions are fear, curiosity, and desire. And if you can get really good at those three emotions, you know, you're well on your way to writing better titles, growing your channel because you're getting people's attention and getting them to click.
- [01:04]
Sean Cannell
This is an essential episode. In fact, it might make or break your success on YouTube this year. Our guest today is Jake Thomas, who is a YouTube title nerd. He has actually analyzed more YouTube titles with extreme geeky precision and ultimately is the creator of the creator Hook's newsletter as well as software. And he can really explain to us how to write viral titles and why titles work. And so this is going to be a juicy episode. Jake, welcome back to the Think Media podcast.
- [01:39]
Jake Thomas
Sean, thanks for having me, man. That was a, that was an awesome intro.
- [01:42]
Sean Cannell
Well, I'm so grateful for you. Last time we talked at social media marketing World, you were wearing YouTube shorts, physically shorts with YouTube logos on them. The most genius marketing idea I've ever seen and very entertaining for me, but I'm excited to die in dive into today's content. First off, you suggest this. You say actually never be original with your titles, but always model your titles off of previously successful videos. Can you elaborate on what that process looks like for you?
- [02:15]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, yeah, of course. So a couple of years ago I got my. I got my first YouTube job and I was managing a channel and I was horrible at titles and I almost got fired because I was so bad at titles. And my boss is like, listen, this is the most important part of your job and if you can't do this right, like, you're not going to be here. So like what I first did was I was like, all right, let me try to write all these titles that I can think of and they were always, like, lame, complicated, like super clickbaity, like, hyperbolic. Just. I just didn't really know what made a good title. And the thing that, like, clicked for me and finally, like, I actually got good at writing titles, and we, like, tripled our. Our subscribers, quadruple our revenue, was I stopped trying to, like, I stopped getting. I got out of my own head. I stopped trying to be original. All I did was find another title that worked, that was kind of similar and just rewrite that for my video. So, like, I, you know, like I said, I didn't know what made a good title, but. But then when you just, like, when you kind of copy good titles literally thousands of times and you'll finally figure out what works. But just looking at kind of adjacent channels or similar videos and just modeling those taught me what actually makes a good title and what makes people click.
- [03:29]
Sean Cannell
So the big idea here was you could go to YouTube, and now there are all of these. YouTube is mature. There's such a huge library of content. There's a lot of content in. If you're listening to this, your niche, someone's probably already making videos about your same topic or saying adjacent. The meaning of adjacent would be you might have, like, a YouTube channel about plumbing, and somebody else might have a YouTube channel about construction, but a title that crushed on the plumbing channel. You're like, well, I'm. If I'm doing construction stuff, I could use that as a template, as a framework, as a formula. Is that what you're saying?
- [04:04]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, exactly. So we had a fishing company. We were fishing. We were a fishing company, and we had a fishing channel. And it's specifically saltwater fishing in the Southeast. So it's kind of. It's kind of niche. There were no other channels like us. Like, we were doing educational content. Like, we were doing entertainment vlogs. So it was very specific. We had very few. We had no good competitors. So what I would do is, like, I would go to a finance channel, and the title would be like, 10 best credit cards of 2025. And I would write 10 best trout lures of 2025. And that's all I would do. Just like, kind of one for one. Like, you know, this is, you know, you know, the number one trick to budgeting for beginners. Okay, the number one trick for catching redfish for beginners. And really just trying to find those adjacent or similar channels. And I look at kind of the same style, you know, so you said, like, you know, plumbing and construction or like, kind of talking head Education, you know, and so I would, I would look for talking head educational videos, you know, with finance, marketing, you know, some makeup stuff. But really just like, you know, channels, especially channels that are in edu that are in competitive niches. So like, you know, obviously if, if you have no competitors and your channel, your, your niche is really popular, like you can get away with crummy titles. But if you're in a competitive niche, you have to be really good to get views. So by going to those big competitive niches, if a video has a lot of views in there like that, that's a pretty good sign that, that, that that's a good title and a good thumbnail.
- [05:32]
Sean Cannell
In your opinion, do you think the average creator takes titles seriously enough?
- [05:41]
Jake Thomas
I don't. Judging by the amount of people who tell me that they slap a title on like right as they're uploading the video, I don't think so.
- [05:50]
Sean Cannell
What do you think is the difference in view potential that just the title.
- [05:55]
Jake Thomas
Alone could make potentially, you know, hundreds of hundreds, millions to like quick stor I did, I wrote titles for an. It's like a real estate investing channel and their content was kind of crummy. No offense to them, but you know, it's real estate investing lots, lots of money. They didn't need that many views. So before I, before I started writing titles for them, they were getting about like 100 to like 500 views a video. I just started writing better titles, same exact content. Like nothing changed about the content, just new titles and, and we started getting like a thousand, like sometimes 5,000 views on the video. So like, you know, we doubled or like 5, 10x their views just by writing new titles, you know, so that was a very kind of simple win, you know, and if you're a real estate investing channel and you double your views and you double your traffic, you know, that's some serious money. And then another example, I had a kind of a faceless channel that was little experiment. It was in the dog niche and I modeled another another video that got about a million views and it was the same topic, but I tried a new kind of title style and that video got 7 million views. So you know, that was a difference of 6 million views for just a new title style. So having better titles could be, you know, can be huge for your channel. And it's just five to ten words, right? It's just literally, it's just titles, you know, it's. I think titles are probably the highest leverage skill you can have, you know, in online business.
- [07:28]
Sean Cannell
I Think you're exactly right. 99% of creators are underestimating how important titles are and missing out on exactly what you said. Without even improving or changing the content, they're missing out on 5x10x more views, 100 times more views, just by mastering this skill. Hey, we're about to get back into the podcast in just a second, but I have a question for you. Do you want to grow your personal brand this year? Do you need more leads and sales in your business? If the answer is yes, then right now is the best time to go all in on YouTube. Today's podcast is brought to you by thinkmasterclass.com where you can get on demand access to a one hour deep dive training revealing how to start and grow a profitable YouTube channel. This year, for a limited time, you can get access to this on demand class entirely for free, where you will learn the three biggest mistakes that people make when starting a YouTube channel, the new rules and changes that have been happening on YouTube and how you can use them to create an unfair advantage, and the exact strategy we use at Think Media to generate over 350,000 organic views every single day. The data is clear. 70% of viewers claim that YouTube makes them more aware of new brands. So don't wait any longer to start growing your brand and business with YouTube. Just go to thinkmasterclass.com to get access to this. No fluff, highly tactical, free on demand training. That's thinkmasterclass.com so one of the things you recommend people do is they create a dream 10 and a model 10 list. Can you explain what those lists are and how they can help creators write better titles?
- [09:13]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So the Dream 10 is just pretty much your competitors. And I don't, you know, so a lot of people will be like, oh, I don't want to steal my competitor's stuff. And I 100% agree. But from your dream 10, you know, and it doesn't have to be 10, it could be three or four or five. I love to find topics from those, from my competitors. You know, I'll look at, I'll look at what's working for my channel. I'll look at what's working, you know, for my, for my dream 10, for my couple of competitors. And I'm just looking for topics, I'm not looking for titles just like, all right, if a video is about, you know, for example, finance, credit cards, like that's a good topic. Budgeting might be a good topic. You know, you're looking for outlier videos. So you Know, if, if one of my competitors, every video gets 10,000, 5,000, 7,000, 12,000. Well, if one video gets 50,000, it's like, okay, that's an outlier, you know, noted. I'll write that down and then I'll ask myself, you know, what is that topic? So you go through all of your competitors and you and your, in your own channel, and you say, all right, what are the five to 10 topics that I see all the time? So, boom, that's how you use your dream 10. Get your proven topics, and then for your model 10, that's the, you know, those adjacent channels that we looked at. It's just a list of channels that you look up to that you like. And you know, they're not, they're not your competitors. They're not talking about the same topic as you, but, you know, but they're kind of adjacent. You like the way they do things kind of most importantly, like, you like their thumbnails, you like their titles. And, you know, not to, like, just get like super meta in here. But like, you can use this for everything. Like, you know, your, you know, your scripts, your intros, your offers, you know, your end screen CTA is like, how do you do CTAs and like, ask people to subscribe, all that stuff, all that could be answered in your dream 10 and your model 10. But anyway, both with the model 10, I'm looking for frameworks. So again, I'm looking for outlier videos. And I'm looking, when I see an outlier video, I'm asking myself, all right, how. What got people to click here? Like, what was the framework? You know, was it 10 tips to blank for beginners in 2024? Or was it, you know, the number one thing I wish I knew before blank, you know, those would be some examples of frameworks. So you go through your dream 10, you get your topics, go through your model 10, you get your frameworks, and then you put those, those frameworks and topics together, and then you can come up with, you know, essentially kind of unlimited ideas from just marrying proven topics with proven frameworks.
- [11:37]
Sean Cannell
I think this is such an underrated approach. You know, Pablo Picasso is famous for saying, good artists copy, great artists steal. And even Steve Jobs was later captured saying that, saying, listen, we're absolutely going to look at competitors, adjacent industries to pull the best ideas. And I think the word choice you used frameworks, is very powerful because we're not talking about copying word for word, and we're not talking about just mirroring everything, but, but it's a template. If they've created a winning template, top 10 list, maybe even how it's introed, how the stakes are raised in the hook. There's just so many things you can learn and then you're plugging your own unique self, your own unique style. And I think even a key word here would be your own unique spin or remix to a proven framework. And would you also say maybe another word for frameworks could also be formats. And I mean, talking head is a format. A live stream is a format. A vlog maybe is a format. Man on the street is a format.
- [12:42]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, yeah. I would, I would look for channels that they make content in the same format as me. You know, they have the same, same, you know, content style. You know, I, you know, if you're looking at like spectacle channels and you're a talking head, educational channel, it's not going to be that helpful. You know, if you're looking at gaming videos and you're, you know, you're a makeup vlogger, it's just not, it's not, it's not as helpful.
- [13:08]
Sean Cannell
Got you. And so on the one hand, maybe you could be inspired by a format you haven't tried because perhaps you could go to the city that would be actually borrowing a format and be like, I'm going to actually try a man on the street. But to your point, if you're like, wow, look at this spectacle YouTuber, they're getting all these views. Let me try their title, their thumbnail. But you just sit in your office, there's nothing near that level of spectacle. Then you're missing out on a key ingredient, which is the overall format and strategy of the video. That makes a lot of sense. You mentioned the importance of separate, separating out traffic source when it comes to crafting your title. Can you help us if we're new to how YouTube gives us views, Maybe explain your favorite traffic sources and then explain how titles can tie into whether your video shows up in search or whether it maybe is suggested by the YouTube algorithm.
- [14:00]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, so it, you know, I, I have in the past kind of, you know, it's a pendulum. Right. I've, I've gone on both sides of there. You know, if you're going for search, there's fewer potential views typically. And like, especially, you know, especially if we're talking about like speed, like if you want to blow up a channel, fast ranking and search is often not the best way. However, if you want to make money and, you know, if you rank, if you get 10 views on your video, but you rank number one for best neighborhoods in Manhattan. You're probably going to make a ton of money, right? So it, it kind of depends on your, your, like, your, your business. Like, how do you monetize? Are you a faceless channel who's relying on AdSense? You probably don't want to make search videos because, you know, there's potentially fewer views and, or if you're a, you know, if you're a realtor, you might want to do a little bit more search because if, if you can get in front of the right people who are searching for a new house, you know, that's a, that's a ton of money. So, so, so, you know, search versus browse depends on your, on your, you know, on your, on your business. And then also how you write titles, kind of, you know, like your traffic source dictates how you write titles. So for instance, if you were trying to rank in search, people aren't searching for, or typically aren't really searching for 10 mistakes. Like, you know, it's usually all positivity and desire and benefits in search. However, if you go on the homepage and you see, you know, 10 mistakes to this, like, you know, like, you know, fear of messing up or, or you know, just fear in general, it does a great job at kind of grabbing your attention and getting you to click. So I love using fear if I'm trying to, if I'm trying to get on the YouTube homepage or the, or the sidebar. But if I'm trying to do search, then it's usually just straight up benefits and really, you know, understanding why my audience is searching. So, you know, maybe if they're searching for best laptops, you're probably going to see best, you know, five best laptops in 2024 or five best laptops for students in 2024, you know, so, so kind of analyzing what the top search results are can kind of give you some, some, some insight into all right, you know, who is searching, why are they searching? What's the core benefit here? What types of videos are working well. And then you can kind of bake that into your content and your title and your thumbnail. And then it's kind of a little bit of a free for all. If you're trying to get on the YouTube homepage, you know, you just need to grab somebody's att hard on curiosity. Like, you really need to nail curiosity if you're trying to get on YouTube's homepage, you know, or you can have a huge, big desire that A lot of people want or fear. You know, the three kind of click worthy emotions are fear, curiosity and desire. And if you can get really good at those three emotions, you're, you know, you're well on your way to writing better titles and you know, growing your channel because you're getting people's attention and getting them to click.
- [16:55]
Sean Cannell
I want to drill down on this part. This is, this is really powerful stuff. And if we're talking about getting discovered for search, what you're saying is if someone actually is quite literally going to type in a search term, they are about to purchase a new laptop. So they're researching laptops or they're looking for top laptops of current year, best laptops or how to lose weight, how to grow your YouTube channel. Um, and they're, they're probably not going to type. To your point, what are the biggest mistakes guys make when talking, Trying to talk to a girl for the first time. But now if we step away from search and we step into browse and they see a thumbnail and a title that says the seven mistakes that kill your chances of getting a second date. And they're like, oh man, I like, that's fear. I want to get that second date. Or seven mistakes content creators make that are killing their channel. Am I making these mistakes? And so it's less search based, it's more desire based. I'm curious. One of the things we've noticed is under browse trying to get attention is this idea of just total curiosity, total mystery. Meaning this new YouTube feature is a game changer and it has no revelation of what the new YouTube feature is. Now that could be very powerful. We found that can work the thing. One of the challenges we found though is also to the degree you do that, sometimes your content library becomes this generic pool of videos that are all just a bunch of curiosity titles and sometimes just an interesting side quest, hard to maybe find or source or know what the video is about. Because in essence Maybe the new YouTube feature is YouTube Shorts, but you don't want to reveal that or the fact they're three minutes now. And so what do you feel like the tension of maybe a strategic creator bouncing between these two title styles and, and playing with some of these open loops, but it doesn't really give you clarity. It's sort of, you know, really trying to get the click. But yet once it, you know, for the long tail of that video, it's, it may, you know, it maybe doesn't make sense and all of your videos could start sounding somewhat the same or just a bunch of curiosity, open loops. What are your thoughts about that tension?
- [19:18]
Jake Thomas
I think I have potentially a controversial take on that. I'm a big fan of focus on pretty much almost everything that you do. So I think that many channels would be well off if they only focused on one of those traffic sources like, are you a search channel? Then just go so hard on search or you browse, go, you know, make no search videos, you know, and there's a couple of reasons that I kind of like that approach is one, just think about the type of user that you're attracting. So if I am, if I bring in somebody who's, you know, who's searching for something, they might not, you know, they're on YouTube for a specific reason. They want to find their solution. So they might not be interested in some other things. But like, you know, and YouTube wants you to binge or wants people to binge your channel. So if you have kind of a mix of like search and discovery type videos, if, if I find you via a discovery video, like, you know, this YouTube, this YouTube, new YouTube feature is a game changer. And then I go to your channel and it's like, you know how to, you know, how to write end screen, click, you know, end screen, you know, call to actions to grow your channel. It's like, okay, well, that's not what I'm looking for. I'm just, I'm looking for YouTube growth or like, or maybe it's just like this, you know, how to just a super in the weeds, you know, video. I'm not going to click on that. I'm just, it's not where my brain is at right now. So the type of user, you know, won't. Might not be as likely to binge if there's, you know, if there are different styles of videos. So, you know, that's, do you have any thoughts on that actually?
- [20:58]
Sean Cannell
Well, that's, I know it's, it's a super interesting take. Here's another question. What do you think about changing titles?
- [21:05]
Jake Thomas
Browse.
- [21:06]
Sean Cannell
Browse for the, the first week, two weeks, three weeks. But if the video plateaus out and then repositioning it, maybe for search later.
- [21:14]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, I mean, I think I like that, you know, I like that strategy. I, you know, it's kind of, you got, you got to see what's happening. Right. But it also depends on, you know, when you start the video. Are people searching for this anyway? You know, because if people are not searching for that topic, then maybe it doesn't make sense to really write a searchable title, you know, because they're not searching for it. So, like, you know, you, you know, you might start off getting a ton of views, you know, because I hit the algorithm and hit the. Hit all your subscribers homepage. But then, like, you know, it fizzles out. So you change it to a search topic or a search title, but then nobody was searching for that. So, like, either way, it's dead in the water. Right? You know, so, you know, there's hope.
- [22:01]
Sean Cannell
We talk about cameras and we eventually maybe know, like, the Sony ZV E10 Mark 2 is going to be very searchable. And maybe the video is about the best camera for YouTube and maybe a conviction is that that is the answer. And eventually it would make sense, like, best camera for YouTube this year. Product name Pros, cons, something else. But during the launch of the video, perhaps we want to say, like, is this the best camera for YouTube? Question mark with a picture with the thumbnail even being different with the camera and the question mark. So I would say this. It's going to be verifiably, there's going to be search later on, but perhaps for the launch of it, by revealing the product name and everything else, it'll do fine. But then people are like, yeah, I already know that, or I've been seeing about that, or I'll save to watch that later. As opposed to, like, the sheer curiosity of, like, what's on the other side of, of what is the best camera for YouTube. So in that particular case study, what are kind of your thoughts and strategies around that?
- [23:03]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, I mean, I like it. I will tell you. I formulated actually. So I, I think I got hints of this opinion from some other people and I'm like, okay, I think I agree with that. And I was like, I was looking at a couple channels and I'm like, I like this theory. And then I looked at Think Media's channel and I'm like, okay, I think I might be wrong here. Because, like, so I looked at some of your competitors and you guys were getting way more views than they were. And it's like, you know what? I bet that Think Media just has a massive backlog of searchable videos. And that is how they're winning. That is how they're doing better because they have really nailed search. And I kind of found myself, you know, when I was looking up camera stuff, I landed on Think Media and I, you know, like, when I was kind of making my setups, I, you know, I binge your channels because it was And I only binged kind of that, you know, only like YouTube studio setup kind of that cluster. So yeah, so I don't know, you guys did an awesome job at refuting that example I got you.
- [24:10]
Sean Cannell
So like people have to have real self awareness about maybe their niche, even their capacity. Think media has grown. Of course I started you know by myself just making videos but as you know it's grown into more of a team effort and ability media company kind of scale. So we can have a lot of volume and I appreciate the kind words. That's an interesting observation. Of course especially too when you sometimes launch with search based content. There might be somebody named Roblox22 in the comments that's like why do you get no views on your new video? Because we'll just launch something very obscure. It gets 3300 views which you could almost say is embarrassing with a channel with 3 million subscribers. Then you might be like hey bro, I don't know if you like check the back end but think media is pumping 4, 5, 6 million views a month like clockwork. And so word is plant seeds playing the long game all the time. That's why our main program is called Video Ranking Academy. We're obsessed with search and we are obsessed with both though. I think that's the, the updated, you know, we've re recorded our program multiple times is actually our holistic strategy is a search and suggested strategy. And that's kind of where I'm processing this with you because I think it's, it can be a dance but there I, I like the conversation because I, I don't, you know our particular channel is unique in that it's education and obviously there's all kinds of different strategies and channels that you know are trying. Any final thoughts on that this conversation?
- [25:35]
Jake Thomas
Uh, also I like the way you got you all monetize and the topics that you talk about also kind of lends you to be able to do that. Um, if you you know you are, are making your, you know a lot of your stuff is about, is about products, you know, your reviews and like I bought a lot of like a lot of the, you know I have like a rode mic here. Like I, you know a lot of the, a lot of the stuff that you all reviewed in the past I bought and you all probably got you know a lot of commission for that. So you know, in that case you know like I, so with my dog channel I couldn't do that. It's just an entertainment dog channel and you know, and also it was Just, it's just entertainment. So. So, yeah, I mean, I know I'm just kind of rambling here, but like, you know, it depends on your capacity to produce a lot of content like you all are doing. And I think it also depends on your goals and how you, how you make money.
- [26:23]
Sean Cannell
Yeah. So key, there's a definitely distinct questions. What is your YouTube money plan? What's your bigger strategy? What's going to be best for you? Which kind of goes into this next question. You say that titles are more important than thumbnails for education channels. So for education channels, titles are actually more important than thumbnails, but for entertainment channels, it's the opposite. Thumbnails are more important than titles. Break down. Why? That's your belief.
- [26:48]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, so, I mean, I think it kind of depends on the user. So if you're an entertainment channel, you are, you know, the, you're probably not ranking in search. Right. You know, you're, you know, you're, you're trying to stop people in their tracks on the homepage. Also, if you're an entertainment channel, you kind of want to show something entertaining. It's a lot kind of easier to show like something crazy happening in a thumbnail if you're doing something crazy. And if you're an entertainment channel, if you're an educational channel, you know, people are a little bit, they're kind of, they're thinking more, right. They're more passive, more, you know, more actively deciding what video they're going to watch. They are, they're, they don't want to waste their time. So they want to confirm that they want to watch your video. When they, when they read the title, like, you know, the thumbnail might, you know, kind of grab their attention, but like, they're looking for education at that time. Like, you need to kind of be like, hey, like this is actually what you want to watch. You know, this is, you know, this is, this video is for you. And this video will kind of, you know, give you some, some benefit versus, like, you know, you know, Mr. Beast is like about to blow up, you know, a Lamborghini or something. And like he shows that moment right before it blows up. And it's like, oh, I gotta see that. It's just, you know, it's a, it's a little bit different in education and, you know, and you can just kind of make it, make a better promise in your title, you know, that it's like, oh, shoot, like you are going to get something awesome if you watch this video. And the easiest kind of Best way to do that is with your titles.
- [28:19]
Sean Cannell
This episode is brought to you by Streamyard. Streamyard is our go to platform here at Think Media for live streaming to Facebook and YouTube and for recording our video podcast. It has an incredibly easy to use interface for built in branding, transitions, text, lower thirds and seamlessly bringing on guests. And they just added an awesome new feature called Local Recording. This allows you to take the quality to another level by separating out your audio and video from your guests, giving you more control over your content for later use. This feature is perfect for video and podcast creators. And so to get a special deal on Streamyard right now and to see all the features that are included, just go to stream with think.com that is stream with think.com so the mindset of the viewer in entertainment, it's almost like you actually sit down on the couch, no clue what you want to watch. I'm just going to open the app and I'm looking for something to watch. So what grabs my attention and you see this Whistling Diesel video with a Ferrari on fire in a cornfield and you're like, what is that? Which I didn't even know who Whistling Diesel was until that video hit. And I gotta say, it's a pretty fire video, literally. And, and I was like. And so that reached me of course because of algorithm of thumbnail. But it was a passive approach. That's me like trying to unwind, unplug. So it's an entirely different mindset. If I sit down, I'm thinking more, I'm actively deciding, I'm trying to solve a problem. If the title is actually maybe all 100 characters and it's like comprehensive guide for how to set up this piece of software. And then it tells you maybe even some additional keywords. You're like, yeah, that's like what I want. I don't want to waste my time. I don't also necessarily, if you apply the entertainment principle to it, it's like, I don't even, I don't want some hype filled approach to even this software. I just, even if the person's monotonous, I just am looking to solve the problem. So it's a very interesting. Am I hitting what you're describing here?
- [30:31]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, I think so. You're, you know, you're proposing solution in your, you know, a solution, a benefit, a fear, a hope, you know, whatever that is in your, in your title. And you're just, you're, you're promising like, hey, like this is what you're going to get out of this video where, you know, it's a little bit more like wordy, whereas the whistle and diesel video, like, he's promising what he's going to get in this video with a, like a Ferrari on fire. And that's, you know, it's just, it's easier to do with entertainment because you have something crazy and then it's easier to do, you know, to make a big promise in education with your title, you know, because you're, you're, you're, you're describing what they're going to get.
- [31:08]
Sean Cannell
Thumbnails versus titles, or rather how they work together to create a compelling package. How do you feel in general about including words in your thumbnail? And if is there too many, can your thumbnail be too busy?
- [31:23]
Jake Thomas
So you might have to put this, you know, on, on the screen. But when I think about titles and thumbnails, I think of that, that, that meme is, I think it's D. Wade throwing an alley Oop to LeBron. And like D. Wade is like, oh, and like the bronze in the background dunking. And it might, it might be flopped, but I'm pretty sure it's D. Wade to LeBron. And like, that's how like titles and thumbnails like work together. Like, you know, they're, it's a one, two punch. You know, they're, you know, they're complimentary. They're not the same. They're complementary, you know, working together to achieve a goal. So I, you know, I love titles, but, you know, but still, like the thumbnail is incredibly important. I do love thumbnail text. You know, I love complementary thumbnail text. You know, kind of thinking like the one, two punch. You know, I like to kind of, you know, so I mentioned the three, the three click worthy emotions, Curiosity, fear and desire. You know, I might have like, you know, fear in the thumbnail and then curiosity in the, in the title or like, you know, curiosity in the thumbnail and then desire in the title. So that's a kind of an easy way for you to think about different angles to. All right, what do I put in my thumbnail text? What I put in my title. But yeah, love, Love titles or love thumbnail text. I like to keep it short. 3, 4, 5, 6 words. You know, it also depends on your niche really. You know, podcast channels, you know, they can get away with like more words. Entertainment channels usually, you know, do fewer words. So like we mentioned the Dream 100 or the Dream 10 earlier. You know, go look at your Dream 10. See, you know, are they using Thumbnails. And they're. Or, you know, words in their, and their thumbnails. How many words are they using? You know, is it mostly text? Is it like, you know, is it, you know, what's their style? And also doing that for the Model 10 as well. Just kind of give your answer because it, it depends on every different channel. I do love AB testing. Uh, I've ab tested thumbnail text. No thumbnail text on the channels that I run. Thumbnail text wins every single time. Um, you know, thumbnail thumbnails with text. So that's how I've got my answer. And if you want that answer for your channel, you can also run that same test. Um, and you'll get a great answer for your channel versus me. Just kind of, you know, speaking here on a podcast.
- [33:40]
Sean Cannell
Yeah. And I, I would recommend Split Test for yourself. There is an interesting trend at this exact moment which is this anti thumbnail, a little bit of like under produced. And so we'll sometimes do kind of a design thumbnail, a text thumbnail, and then just me, like mid sentence with like my hand up. And that in some cases paired with a really great title is, is outperforming. But the cool thing about the YouTube split test feature is you kind of never know and there's different trends and there's so many variables. So actually doing the Split Test, do you also Split Test titles ever?
- [34:14]
Jake Thomas
I do. I love, so I love Split Testing titles because, like, yes, you can optimize a current video, but you can also, you know, as a title nerd, I have a lot of theories about titles. And I'll test my theories and be like, okay, I think that if I do this, then it will get more views. How do you do it so well? How do I, how do I use that? Oh, thumbnailtest.com.
- [34:41]
Sean Cannell
Yeah, okay.
- [34:42]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, yeah. And I've used Tubebuddy as well. You know, they're kind of the same, but I like them. Thumbnail Test has a few more options, but yeah, so I might think like, all right, maybe my audience really loves curiosity. You know, I'll try to, you know, I'll try to open up a loop. This is going to be a straight curiosity title. But also, you know, I do know that they love Desire. Like, I'll have a kind of a straight up kind of desire based title and I'll test those two. Like, oh, Curiosity actually worked really well here. For my next video, I might do the same thing. You know, curiosity versus desire. And like, oh, curiosity one again here. Like, okay, maybe I Need to rethink my strategy and curiosity. I should start with curiosity. You know, so that's one thing. Another thing that I've done in the past is I have included in my intro kind of a couple different topics and then for my thumbnail or for my, my title test, you know, I'll include a couple different titles. If they do similarly well, I'll just make another video using the, using a different title. So that's a kind of a simple way for you to kind of pre vet titles be like, okay, like I know that my audience will click this title. I'm going to actually save this for another video and I'm just going to kind of include that maybe in like a month or two, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to do that again. And that's a kind of a fun way to, to de risk your, you know, the odds that your video is going to fail.
- [36:05]
Sean Cannell
Well, help me understand. So would that maybe be like in this video I'm going to help you learn how to get views and subscribers and then split test titles for how to get more views or one for how to get more subscribers. And then whichever one wins, what would you do? Make another video.
- [36:24]
Jake Thomas
So whichever one wins, I'll probably keep that one on this video. But it's like, all right, so my Winner got an 8% click through rate. The other one got a 7 1/2% click through rate. It's like, okay, well most of my titles get 6% click through rate. Yeah, I'm definitely going to use this one that got a 7 1/2% click through rate on another video.
- [36:44]
Sean Cannell
And so in a niche like whether you're a dog channel or something else, what would be an example of how you would hook that of like three different topics but that, that without it being too broad in the overall video.
- [36:54]
Jake Thomas
So, you know, so maybe it's a list. So this specific example I'm talking about, it was a list. So let's say it's about like, you know, basketball. It's like, you know, the weirdest basketball plays that, you know, the weirdest NBA plays in history. From, you know, Michael Jordan getting his ankles broken to Larry Bird dunking on Kareem Abdul Jabbar to blah, blah, blah. And you know, and I'll list a third one. So maybe there are kind of three, you know, kind of previewing three of the things in the list. I might have three titles for each of those three things in the list and they're in the video. But then like you know, if one of one of them does well, I'll keep that. If another one does pretty well, you know, the second place video did pretty well. I might make a second video all about that second place thing.
- [37:40]
Sean Cannell
This is an advanced level conversation and we're about to even go deeper. So I would recommend listeners stick with us because it's about to get, you know, crazy. We're about to go even deeper in the matrix. But I also want to encourage listeners that like, there's kind of levels to the game and just getting a little bit better at titles. Just getting a little bit better before. It's like it's hard enough to write one, let alone software and split testing and multiple thumbnails and multiple different things. But this kind of just speaks to like how crazy YouTube gets. And on this question I do want to bring up, I'm curious your thoughts and opinions. You know, Diary of a CEO revealed that they split test three different thumbnail facial concepts. Usually it's the interview guest on the video podcast with about 25 different text on thumbnails per face. And I want to. I'm guessing they don't do that on YouTube. I'm guessing they maybe do it somewhere else with like a small ad budget or something. Or maybe they do. I don't know how they would get that much data that quickly.
- [38:42]
Jake Thomas
I'm pretty sure I've seen their, their Facebook ad library, A screenshot of their Facebook ad library. So they're running Facebook ads to that.
- [38:49]
Sean Cannell
So. And already that's like, that's such a level. And I, I think Steve Bartlett revealed you did an interview somewhere about how his $25 million a year empire, which frames that. If, you know, if you're not doing seven figures, perhaps it's not that you would have to be doing that much is the level of team and depth and help and whatever. The thing that's interesting though is the fact that you take a channel like that that's investing thousands, maybe millions of dollars in testing and you can go to their channel and then see the results. So you can pull a lot of clues. Like one of the words I noticed on that channel is lying. Like they're lying to you, the government's lying to you, doctors are lying to you, your spouse is lying to you. Like you'll see, like you'll see lying. I mean, a lot of thumbnails, as a quote pulled out of the interview, they highlight the word lying. To your point, there's maybe three to five words in each of the thumbnails. Another One we'll look at is like impact theory and we saw the powerful word change and realize how that triggers the human brain. Because if we can't even help it, as humans, we are scanning our environment to if we wake up one day, if you take us back to more primitive times, we look around, we're like, okay, the kids are good. Look on the horizon. Well, it looks like it's going to be sunny. No big deal. Look around, wife's okay, cool. Now if you wake up and you see footprints of a vicious beast that was in your camp, something changed. Okay, you look on the horizon and you see a storm coming, you're like, oh, it's that. What is that going to mean for me down the road? So when it's, YouTube is changing, fitness is changing, changes are coming. Changes are. And so I was like, man, they're using change in some of their most viewed videos. Changes are coming to the economy. We're about to get into some of your click triggers. I'm just curious, your take on pro level title, thumbnail game from maybe Diary of a CEO or others you've worked with and like lessons we could learn for where maybe those that are scaling their YouTube channel, envisioning the future or even ready to play the game at a bigger level, what they could be learning from what the pros do.
- [41:04]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, I mean I, I do love change as well. I have, I've got a list of some of my power words up here. Change is number two. Change is so cool because it's, it's vague, right? You know, it's so open ended, you know, you know this, you know this water bottle has changed my life. It's like, okay, like what changed? But also like there's a lot of desire there. Like, yes, I want to change my life. I also want to know what changed, how did it change? You know, it's, there's so much, there's, it's, it's, it's one word, but there's so much emotion and story implied by that one word, which, which is cool.
- [41:38]
Sean Cannell
I got to know the power words at least give me like the top five habits.
- [41:43]
Jake Thomas
And I will say that I have tested habits on some entertainment channels. They did horrible. But habits might be one. So in Creator Hooked my newsletter, I've got a database of like 1100 Viral videos and habits is one of the power words I see all the time. People love habits. They're so tangible. You know exactly what a habit is. And our kind of culture is like obsessed with habits. So habits change. Stop if you tell someone to stop doing a best practice, that's like, you know, that uses negativity, curiosity. It's counterintuitive. Like, why would I stop? Why would I stop doing this? You know, it doesn't make any sense. You know, it's also like a warning too, you know, always and every as well. Those just kind of make a video feel a little bit more epic, you know? You know, the one thing I always do before publishing a video, it's like, wait, okay, you always do this. Like, it's. It must be pretty cool. Or like, you know, I tried every YouTube soft. Every YouTube idea software out there. You know, here's what I learned. It's like, okay, like, this is a very comprehensive video. They tried every single one. So always and ever are two. And then only is also kind of the same thing. The only thing I do before publishing my YouTube videos, it's like, oh, shoot, what is this? Only and then new and never. People love new things. Never also has a lot of emotion. The one thing I never do before publishing my YouTube video, it's like, oh, why would he never do this? Am I missing out on something? Am I actually doing this thing? You know, so those are. Those are a couple. A couple power words that, you know, that I've just been thinking about. I haven't made them official power words, but. But I'm on the lookout for them. They're on my watch list and I take a note whenever I see them.
- [43:29]
Sean Cannell
This just might be one of the most valuable think media podcasts we've ever published. And if you are getting value, it always is helpful to rate and review the podcast or like and leave a comment if you'd want Jake to be coming back in the future. I do want to hit some of these click triggers, but you got me inspired because I know you are. You're a student, you're a learner, and you've been deep in kind of online marketing, communication, and copywriting for a long time. I am curious if you have any favorite books. We'll link those up in the show notes. Favorite books. I know there are some classic books, kind of like Power Words is a book, but some of them also, they're written maybe for people that are writing persuasive marketing copy which ties into this. Is there any that maybe creators could benefit from if they want to get extra geeky? And any books in general that YouTube creators should read that are some of your favorites?
- [44:22]
Jake Thomas
Yeah, I got three for you. The. The Ad Week Guide to Copywriting. It's by Joe Sugarman. It's. It's a really long title. It's Ad Week Guide. It's something like that. But that's one of my favorite books. It's funny, I'm rereading it for, I think, maybe the fourth or fifth time, and I'm. He's talking about pretty much writing, like, editorials, ads, and I'm like, this is just YouTube. Like, he's like, you need to, like, you know, you know, get right into it. Like, you know, you know, somebody's gonna, like, kind of. They're gonna flip the page because he's talking about, you know, like, ads and, like, catalogs, magazines. He's like, you know, you need to grab their attention right away. You need to, like, you know, instill like, seeds of curiosity to keep them going. You need to have a, you know, an image that grabs their attention and a little, you know, a little. Little blurb under that that kind of, like, you know, piques their curiosity even more. I'm like, this book was written in, like, the 70s or the 80s, and it's just the same psychology, you know. And he, you know, talks about kind of emotional things that grab people's attention. But, yeah, that's one of my favorite books. Is that by Joe Sugarman. Cashvertizing by Drew Whitman. It's another great book. And he talks about, you know, emotions and just, like, the psychology of what gets people's attention, you know, That's a pretty short book, but it's an awesome one. And then the other one is Age of Propaganda by Andre Pratt Khannas and somebody else, but it's Age of Propaganda. And those three books, I've probably read them three, four or five times, and they're just. It's just psychology, which is my, you know, my. The thing that I like to nerd out about the most is psychology and persuasion and getting people's attention. And those three books are perfect for anybody who is excited about YouTube titles and psychology and really just content marketing in general, you know. Those three books will help you.
- [46:16]
Sean Cannell
Three books every YouTube content creator should read. Ad Week Guide to Copywriting, Cashvertising and Age of Propaganda. And we'll, of course, link those up in the show notes. I actually am going to want to turn. I want to turn this into two parts, if you've got the time. So I want to subscribe if you wanted to listen to part two, because we're already 46 minutes into the convo. And I do want, though, to give a shout out to your stuff if people want to connect with you. You have one of the most valuable newsletters, and we can link to that, but go ahead and describe that as well as your software, whatever else, and we'll link it up in the show notes. So break it down.
- [46:53]
Jake Thomas
Cool. Yeah. So you can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn @Jake Thomas. Just search Jake Thomas. You'll see a guy with a hat, a beard, and a golden retriever. And that is me. And then also creatorhooks.com so we talked about, like, the Model 10 earlier, you know, finding examples of successful titles outside of your niche. That's. The newsletter is essentially like a done for you service of that. Like, I'll send you five viral videos that did really well every single Monday morning, and then I'll kind of explain why they did well and I'll share examples of how you could use that for, you know, you know, I'll kind of break down that format or that, that framework, and then examples of how you could use it for your channel. So that's a newsletter. And then I have a creator, Hooks Pro, which is just like kind of an automated, more personalized version of this. You know, we'll, we've talked about click triggers and formats and, you know, you can plug in your video topic and it will use all of those click triggers and formats to come up with video titles for you to kind of help you kind of see things from a different angle and get the wheel spinning and then see, oh, cool. Like this, you know, these 10 titles are awesome. For my video, I'm going to use this title for my. This one for my title, this one for my thumbnail text. And like, this one's going to, you know, inspire my intro and my subheads. So, yeah, creatorhooks.com is where you can learn about all that stuff.
- [48:08]
Sean Cannell
And your newsletter's free.
- [48:10]
Jake Thomas
Yes, newsletter's free.
- [48:11]
Sean Cannell
It's a great deal. So check out show notes and resources in the show notes of the podcast, like rate, subscribe, share, wherever you watch or listen. And really grateful for you being a part of our community. My name is Sean Cannell, your guide to building a profitable YouTube channel. And I can't wait to connect with you in a future episode.