Sean Cannell (4:14)

I like that you said you just have to do it. And I'm sure listeners are like, man, I've heard that one before. But I'm curious, from your unique perspective, it feels like you have that kind of. I feel like, why Combinator or whatever, that sort of startup culture, you know, friends with Tim Ferriss, in a world of guys like that business Owners, people that are in SaaS that maybe then look at someone like you and think they want to start a personal brand, they want to start a YouTube channel. Do you. Are you finding that, like they're just massively stuck in their head overthinking. And that's maybe one of the biggest leaps, like, why are they not just doing it?

Noah Kagan (4:53)

I mean, I think it's probably for their whole life, like, how come they're not getting what they want? And a lot of it comes down to the pain of their current existence isn't painful enough. They don't hate their lives enough. And I hated my day job and I hated the idea of working for someone else and I hated the idea of having to go to an office. And if you want to have a life where you can work in Vegas or wherever in the world, but you have to start today to plant those seeds to be able to enjoy that at a later point. So most people don't feel enough pain or have enough desire to get that motivation for themselves is what I've noticed in. I also think that they don't stick with it long enough. Most of us. Like, I'm 40 now and I will say I'm so fucking glad. Like 20 year old Noah was really unhappy and really miserable and he was really trying to find something to stick with and get to a point so he could be rich at some point. Because finally now, you know, 20 years later, it has really paid off. But I was really trying and struggling a lot for probably at least a decade. And I think a lot of people probably want to do a video and so it's like, just fuck it, do it today. Like some of my most popular videos are just from my iPhone. There's no producer, there's no thumbnail person necessarily. There's none of this shit. You just like grab your phone, talk about something you're interested in and put it online. And I think people need to realize they have the abilities and if they meet someone like me, there's so many people that are better than me. And the only difference in certain areas is that I just did it. That's the separation. And so if you are stuck or frustrated, then fucking do something today. And I think people will be shocked at their abilities and the outcomes that they can have over periods of time.

Sean Cannell (6:29)

So now it's 20, 25. What shifts are you seeing from your perspective now? I know you've been in kind of a family season, kind of been taking a break, but I'm sure you're plugged in to social creator economy, entrepreneurship, digital marketing, SaaS. And I'm thinking specifically for listeners that want to create content, maybe see some opportunities. I mean, you recognize patterns. You've started at least eight businesses that have grown to a million dollars. So I think you're definitely a trend spotter. Just curious, 2025, if you were thinking about specifically people that want to get in the content game, make money online, build a business, what are some of the trends and shifts you're seeing?

Noah Kagan (7:11)

I don't think from what I'm observing, I don't think that much is changing right now, which is actually still an opportunity. It feels like there's a lot of people sleeping and a lot of people. Maybe that's how I'm feeling. And so I still think it's a huge opportunity to be a profitable content creator. I think the same fundamentals still apply, like where's the number one platform for you to build your audience? And then how are you hedging if that platform screws you over, which they inevitably will? And those are the two things that are still there. You know, I think it depends where you want to create content. Is it on Instagram, is it on TikTok, is it on Twitter, is it on YouTube? Pick one and win on one platform and then diversify generally with email list so that you can communicate with your audience when your platform. When the platform screws you over, I don't see that many shifts happening. I think you could still get attention. A lot of these platforms now are paying you to actually create the content, which is such an amazing business. Yeah. I think the only thing I would say as a content creator that's worked well for me. Most content creators create content and then they have this very weird fluctuation of revenue. And I did it the opposite, where I created a business and then the content creation helps the business and I also enjoy it. And I think that's been beneficial. So I don't have to be creating content and selling a course or begging people to do things or begging to get a sponsor, because my business isn't dependent on that. And I've found that to be a better business model for me. But it's not to say that it can't work for others to create content and then try to sell those things afterwards.

Sean Cannell (8:40)

I'm curious if you were to. I'm not trying to. We could stay neutral politically here. But I am curious. There's obviously been an administration change, and I'm not sure if you saw that there was a recent initiative to introduce a New media press pass to the White House press briefing room. And they said, we're inviting independent journalists, podcasters, social media influencers, and content creators to apply for credentials to cover the White House events and briefings. I think that's an interesting event, as we also are now seeing social media influencers being invited behind the scenes at sporting events and kind of just this evolution of the creator economy. I'm curious your take on maybe those that might think, like, oh, craters, it's too saturated, or like, man, there's so much competition now, as opposed to maybe, how blue ocean is it? How red ocean is it?

Noah Kagan (9:37)

Wide open, dude, it's so wide open. It's unbelievable. Like, I just. My.

Sean Cannell (9:41)

The.

Noah Kagan (9:42)

The guy. So we were having camera difficulties on the show, and if I was, you weren't, and I wasn't prepared enough. But the guy who I'm working with to help me set up my studio, he's now doing videos for a guy who's doing UFO content. And the guy's channel, it's Jesse Michaels. I guess I can say it. I don't know who he is, but this guy's, like, blowing up making YouTube, UFO content, UAP stuff. And, you know, there's all these new creators that are coming out there, and I don't think people realize, like, it can be them, like Dio Vaughn or any of these guys, like Joe Rogan. He just has been doing it longer. Like, if you did as many content as Joe Rogan in the next 15 years and you kind of. Kind of kept making it a little better and better, I think people will be shocked how far they can be. And I think what, you know, whether you voted for whoever in America. I think the fascinating part is how much the content creators were able to influence public opinion. I think that's kind of what you're. I don't know if that's what you're saying, but that was fascinating that all the presidential candidates were kissing a podcaster's ass.

Sean Cannell (10:42)

Yeah.

Noah Kagan (10:42)

Like, how cool is that? And so, you know, one thing that's missing, and I do want to highlight it, Sean, is when people are thinking about being a content creator, the reality is that not everyone likes it. And they're like, well, I want to be a content creator. It's like, well, why? It's like, well, I don't know. Because, like, it's a business and I can make money and it seems like it's going to be fun. It's like, well, it's going to be work. Let me tell you that. It's a lot of work if you're trying to be successful. And so you have to find the part of the business or part of the work that you just will do for free and you'll do it forever. Ideally. Like, I've been creating content since 2000, like the start of the Internet. It's kind of wild. Like, I've been posting on my blog, NoahKagan.com and it was OkayDork.com before, since 2000. And right now I'm in a season where I'm focusing on being a good husband and good father. So all I'm doing is one email and one podcast a month and sometimes Twitter stuff. But I haven't posted on my YouTube channel in months. And so I want people to recognize you can either be in front of the camera, you can create content where you're behind the camera, you can be on the sides of the camera. I do think people have to be mindful with AI. If you're creating like real low quality crap, it's gonna be hard to differentiate yourself. But you can create a business if you're excited about making this stuff. Like right now, if I was wanting to create a business and I was more excited to do it, I would create all this content about dad life because dad life's fucking. I'm a new dad, six month old daughter. I know you have two kids as well, and there's just so much out there that no one's telling me. And it's hard to find good content around specific things. I watched videos on YouTube. It was real generic. Like, what's the. What's the best carrier? What's the best stroller? You know how the. What's the best nipple for your bottle? You know, just like random stuff that, like, that's a whole. That's content. That's a video channel or Twitter channel or Instagram that you can create a business out of. But I do want to say one, find the part that you actually enjoy if you want to do it, but also realize that it's to some extent, it is work. And so find the work that you can stick with for a period of time.

Sean Cannell (12:36)

So to be clear, did you start creating content when you were 15?

Noah Kagan (12:40)

I'm 42, so I started creating content at 18 public.

Sean Cannell (12:43)

18. Wow. Okay. And so that's an interesting. Go ahead.

Noah Kagan (12:48)

Yeah, go to archive.org. you know, I think what I would encourage other people to realize is think about seasons. You know, there's. You kind of commented me, I'm in dad mode. So I'm taking a break from some of the content and it's just like a TV show. Like you have friends, there's like 10 episodes in a season and then they take a break and they have another season. What's been kind of interesting is that my back catalog of YouTube videos is still generating, you know, four to five thousand plus dollars a month. And I haven't touched YouTube in months. So there's something pretty cool about getting content that people want to watch, putting it out there and taking a break. And when I feel inspired or I'm ready to create content again, I can go back. But it's also still making money from stuff I've done in the past. Like, that's a nice, that's a nice thing.

Sean Cannell (13:31)

Yeah, I love that. And I am curious. One more question kind of on this topic. Like, if you are coaching busy entrepreneurs that are consider investing some time into YouTube. You kind of already touched on it. Like, maybe there's the appeal. Like, I want to be whoever I want to. I want to be Tim Ferriss, I want to be Gary Vee, I want to be Alex Hermosi, I want to be Noah Kagan. But maybe I haven't counted the cost and a lot of people want to get into it. What would be the framework for making a decision? Is this right for you? And then is there like too? We'll touch on this a little bit later. If you're an entrepreneur, business owner, you start something like appsumo. I think content is right for you. Like, maybe not you, but okay, how do I make the decision of like, oh, should I be, you know, going all in on YouTube or should I just ignore it? Because you could also get acquisition other places too. So like, what would be your framework for somebody who like thinks it's kind of appealing and like wants to get in the game but like, maybe isn't fully, you know, is it right for them or not to do what you do?

Noah Kagan (14:39)

There's a few different pieces there. Number one, if you're, if you think of like a basketball or any sport you're interested. Cricket. I don't know. I actually don't know anything about cricket. If you're a hobbyist, you're not going to beat a professional. And so if you're coming to the content world and you said, you know, I'm going to dabble and hopefully it works. Like, it's very hard for it to work. You have to take it like a profession. That's the difference between a hobbyist, like a court player in basketball versus A professional. A professional is like, I've dedicated my whole life to this. So I think that's part that, that each person has to decide. And I would say is if put out a video and see how you feel, you'll get a comment, tell your friends, and you'll be like, oh, I actually really enjoyed that. I want to do more of it. Now. I think most content creators, I don't think this is going to be a popular opinion, but I think they're very unhappy. I think they're actually very unhappy and they have a huge ego and a big need for attention and they're really sad people. I know that's like not what people are imagining, but I think some of these people that you mentioned, I don't know Tim, I don't, I don't know. I think Tim has evolved a lot. So I don't think Tim is sad these days. But I think some of these other people that people admire, they're desperate to feel worthy and they're desperate to feel significant. And so they crave and chase this attention on content. And the crazy part is most of our contents are frankly, lies. That's the part that I don't know how people are so dumb to consume it, but that's for buyer beware. Now, I think when people are really satisfied with their lives, they can make content that is pure in that essence versus creating content. They're like, I hope people finally validate me. And I've felt that way at times, but I don't give a shit today to make content for people I don't know that don't care about me, and I don't mean it. I appreciate people watching my videos. I love it. I've loved it over the years, but I think I've created a lot of it because I'm like, I hope people finally see me and realize I'm special. And I think over time, if you just can find yourself feeling special, then you can make content I think, comes across more authentic and I think you'll enjoy that process. So how do people make the decision? You know, from a, from a business perspective, I think you have to look at your, your return on time and return on capital. So if you have a product, let's say it's spices or whatever, you know, I would create content, I would try ads, I would try other forms of marketing and then see based on the time and cost, which, which one gives you the best return.

Sean Cannell (16:59)

So that's an interesting tension. I mean, I'm fascinated now because you've Made some powerful statements that I actually really agree with. You know, it's kind of interesting that psychologically it would be said that a lot of what we do is motivated by trauma, right? And so maybe bullying, social rejection or inconsistent attachment or emotional neglect in childhood. And so now we're out here trying to grow our YouTube channels, but you know, it's actually part of our core value. We hope to help people, want to help purpose driven people build successful YouTube channels and experience that success without losing their soul. And, and come from a place of health and wholeness. And of course it's tensions to be managed. Like, I'm self aware enough to know that sometimes I've wanted to create content because of a chip on my shoulder or to prove the people in high school who aren't even thinking about me right now, you know, prove them wrong because I was not cool and kind of an outcast. And it's like, I'll show you. But trying to heal those types of things and realize, okay, but if we are, I love that you said if you are satisfied with your life, it's gonna be a good starting point to then be creating content on top of that foundational framework. It's kind of curious like, and the tension because you just said it, but then also if it just works. Like, I wonder if we. Because maybe nobody's emotionally neutral, but from an emotionally neutral standpoint, you're probably in a healthy place. If you're like, yeah, I'm doing content because the mission needs it. I want to get the message out. I want to get my product in the hands of people. I want to change lives. I'm maybe platform agnostic if I at least enjoy it enough. This is the new thing. I should be doing this. I should be doing social and YouTube because I care about my core mission in my company. Oh, what's the next thing? I'll do that as well. And then maybe it's not me. And we'll touch on this a little bit later in the conversation. Maybe I then know I'm committed. I will commit time, resources, money. And maybe there's somebody else at the company that could be the face. Maybe it could be a team that leads the thing, but kind of committed to the vehicle because social and YouTube itself would be kind of like money. It's morally neutral. It's just going to be an exposure. It's going to expose whatever's actually happening in your soul, in your inner game. Thoughts on that?

Noah Kagan (19:08)

Yeah, a few things. Like it's interesting to watch a lot of YouTube like there's a guy, Brad Owen, I think he's in Vegas and he makes poker blogs. The guy just like films on his phone, like about his day in poker and talks about his wife and he makes stupid jokes and he shows his different hands and I don't know if he's making a million from the, from the channel. I wouldn't be surprised if he was. But his content's awesome and I really admire that. And it comes across where he's not trying to convince you that he's done a hundred million dollar business. He's not trying to convince you to buy his. He doesn't have anything to sell you. And then he has a mastermind or some, you know, thing, you know, oh, get this and buy. He's just like, I make poker videos and if you want to come play with me and do this, it's just, he's having fun with it and it comes across that way. And I, those are some of the creators that I really admire and ones that as well that have done it a long time. And you know, I don't think it's bad to have trauma. I don't think it's bad to use that to motivate you. I think people need to be, figure out what they're actually motivated on. Like, no one has to tell me to make content. I generally have liked it. And so I think you have to realize like, is this something you actually want to do? And if not, fuck it, don't do it. And if you do like it, like just commit, commit to some period of time or some amount of content that you'll do. Like there's, there's all these fantasy football youtubers or. Do you play fantasy football? I don't, I'm like ashamed of myself for how much time I spent this year on fantasy football, but I watched their content and most of them weren't trying to get rich. They weren't trying to just super get famous. They just like loved the game. And it was really fun to watch them evolve their content and put out videos just about fantasy football. And they're just having fun with it. And I think if people can try to identify what part of content creation and which platform has really given that joy, they should embrace it. And the reality is most people are also happy not creating content. They just want to consume it. And so if you want to make a career out of it, it's actually so easy. I keep saying it because it is where all you have to do is you put it out and then guess what, you do another one. And you do your best to, you know, try to listen to what you think your customer wants and make content that you think they'll enjoy. Like I would say with my con, my content journey, I put out. I put out like hundreds and hundreds of videos, and very few were ever significantly watched. And then we tried this Knocking on doors video. Cause we saw someone who did it. They, they. They totally cheated. They didn't actually do it. They, like, no one opens the door and is excited to see you. They're like, who the fuck are you? Like, that's. That's 100% of the times, 99% of the times. And so these video was like, hey, what's up? Come on in. And I don't know who on our team thought of it. And then we did it and it went viral. And then a lot of our videos were knocking on doors or jets or yachts. But I honestly hated all of them. And I had so much anxiety about this content. And if I'm totally candid here, which I will be, I'm like, I'm pretty rich at this point. It's all relative. But I'm like, I'm satisfied with how much money I have. Like, why am I doing this? I don't want to. I don't need to. And it's not something I can sustain. I think that's also led me to, you know, taking a break from doing some of the content. Whereas when I interviewed older people about their lives like that have created businesses that I admired. Like, I would do that. I would pay for those. Like, I would pay. Like, right now, I don't know if, you know, Buc EE's. You know, Buc EE's. You ever heard of it?

Sean Cannell (22:19)

The. The brand. Oh, Bucky's. Yeah.

Noah Kagan (22:23)

Yeah.

Sean Cannell (22:24)

I want to interview.

Noah Kagan (22:25)

His name is Archie Bucky Beaver Alpin. He's like the kind of guy I want to interview. Those are, Those are the things where make content, where you would even pay someone to be able to make that content. And that's. That's starting what I'm leaning back into. That's where I'm interested in versus. And some of the times I'm interviewing people that are rich. And I just don't care that they're rich. I don't care about their stuff. But I think we do it because we want the views and we want people to like us. And I think at the end of the day, if you can just find your own satisfaction doing it, you'll sustain longer. And I think it connects actually more deeply with the audience, which that was wild for me, man. I launched Million Dollar Weekend and what I found out was that these million subscribers aren't actually as engaged with me. They're engaged with a character who does things. But when I actually said, hey, here's a book I've worked on and all my stories, and I think it'll help you if you want to do business. It did well in like, you know, New York Times and all this stuff, and it sold well and people seem to really like it. But I don't think the YouTube content and the community was there for me and they don't have to be. But I think if I had more content, that was who I am and less like just this character that tries to do, you know, business stuff, I wonder how that would have impacted the book.

Sean Cannell (23:38)

And just for clarity, I heard you say that some of the in your content experiments, your conversations with some billionaires who reflected back over their life and what really matters and what was significant with some of the priceless content that's been some of your favorite, and you want to double down on that in the future and more things that are following what you're having fun and enjoying doing as opposed to maybe just what will get maximum amount of views.

Noah Kagan (24:04)

Totally. But dude, it's addicting. It's addicting. Put out bangers, as we call them, and get millions of views. And then people, you walk around in an airport and someone's like, oh, shit, dude, I think I know you on YouTube. You know, right? And I'm like, yeah, like that actually, it feels fucking great. It feels great. I'm not gonna try to pretend it. At the same time though, I'm not as interested for a very long period of time sustaining that type of content creation. But that means it's available for someone else. For me, you know, I think dad stuff, like people that are older stuff, I'm curious about money stuff lately. And so I'm going to lean more into that type of content creation moving forward.

Sean Cannell (24:42)

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Noah Kagan (28:20)

Ultimately, I think if you're dependent on YouTube to pay your bills with ads, you're going to be very limited. Same with sponsorships because then you're very dependent on what does YouTube choose to pay you. Today my wealth has been separate from that. You know, I was able in a weekend to build appsumo.com and it's a software deal site. I wanted software deals. And so taking a step back, if people, people need to have some hate in their heart. People need to hate their fucking job so much. And I just hated all of my jobs so much that I was like, I gotta find something and you have to realize it may not work. And that's why you have 52 weekends to eventually get it to work. Now I think the opportunities that I always think about and what I encourage people to think about is think about the things in your life that you would like. Like what are the problems that you have? Like what is your frustrations? So in terms of opportunities and the problems that I've been noticing, I think I'll just give a few different examples people could literally do today. One I found, it's called Grandparents Unlimited. So again, this is all my problems. I think that's the best businesses to be creating and you could do it with YouTube or without in that right now, finding a nanny for us or a babysitter is very hard. And we want someone old, like we want to discriminate. We just want like an old grandma to take care of us, take care, help us with our baby. And I just randomly found the site and so you could validate in a weekend. Hey, are there other people that are having a tough time finding a nanny or a babysitter? And you call them up and say, hey, do you want to pay me? And I'll find you one. Then you go and hit up all these grandparents and then eventually yes, you can build websites and do all this stuff that I think a lot of people sell you on, but you could validate that within A day if that's really a business. Now with content creation, let's take another type of idea. You know, at AppSumo.com, we do promote a lot of different software tools, a lot of AI tools that people need for running their businesses. You could truly like there's a guy named Dave Swift. You could do this today yourself, go get a tool on AppSumo. You could buy it or try it for free, make content about it and get paid as an affiliate. Like you could go find any products online that you get really excited about, make a video about it today and become an affiliate of that product. Like we have guys, I think Dave Swift, I can't say his number, I think it's private, but I think he's doing over six figures. I don't know if we have a seven figure person as an affiliate, but that's for free. Somewhere all over the world, people you can take advantage of. Like right now we have people taking advantage that they speak Spanish. So we have Spanish affiliates, we have Italian affiliates, we have Portuguese speaking affiliates. And so I think there's a lot of affiliate opportunities specifically with content creation. Not in a shady way, which I think affiliate has that rap, but it's about products that you're excited about. I think that's like a no brainer for a lot of different categories.

Sean Cannell (31:01)

Our community loves affiliate marketing and I don't know, a lot of them probably haven't heard of AppSumo. There's lots of people kind of in tech software, AI listening and so thinking about, I'm looking at it, unlimited commissions earn 100% of the sale up to $50 whenever a new app sumo customer makes a purchase. So AppSumo is a marketplace, right? So you actually there's, there's affiliate opportunity there and then returning customers 0 to 15%. I'm just kind of looking at like what that would be practically what you're saying. So, so if you, you maybe start a new channel, you start a new tutorial based site. Matt Wolf is, has been on the podcast. He, he found his way into just talking about so much stuff happening in a AI and there's unlimited, right? It's, I mean talk about like it's it. That's a conversation that cannot really be exhausted and really probably won't be going into the future. So you look at something like AppSumo, all these incredible different software tools on discount and the punchline is you could have fun like check them all out, make videos about them, but be an affiliate and single handedly the Opportunity could be making a full time living as an affiliate. Am I breaking it down right?

Noah Kagan (32:14)

100%. And you could also work backwards. Like I'm just gonna give a total separate example. But yeah, you could do it on if you like AI. It's so easy today to just make content about all the different AI tools that are out there, test them out and then either be an affiliate before the video or after the video. It's like a no brainer for anyone who's unemployed and excited about something. But just another stupid ass example. I'm more obsessed with cooking these days. I like cooking for my family and so I'm really excited about making ramen, like from scratch. There is a lot of videos. There's a guy's channel dedicated just to making kind of like ramen broth. It's like Way of the Ramen is that like 400,000 views? And I'm like, wow, how cool is that? Now the question is, how do you monetize it? So there's a lot of these now, Ramen seasonings, ramen chopsticks, ramen packets. So I would either contact them before or afterwards to say, hey, you have an affiliate program? Oh, you don't? Do you want to sponsor me for a little bit? And a lot of these companies, if you're, I think you reasonable, will say sure, like 100 bucks, 500 bucks yen. And that can grow over time. Like I think, what's it called? Immi Ramen, I think it's called. Yeah, I love them because it's high.

Sean Cannell (33:24)

Protein, they're like pumpkin based.

Noah Kagan (33:25)

Oh yeah, yeah. It's a buddy of mine, Kevin, I think, who started it. But anyways, if you really excited about ramen, you can get Momofuku to sponsor, you can get EMI Ramen and guess what, you can also in the future, if you have an email list, which I highly recommend, every content creator having an email list, you can sell your own stuff. And so that's kind of the areas that I think about in terms of content creation and business model generation. Now the reality is what I encourage people to do is business. If it was easy and everyone knows about it, it's going to be hard to make money, right? Because the opportunity is that it hasn't been created, otherwise everyone would already take it. So you might have to recognize that you could put out 10 pieces of content, about 10 different things you're interested in and one does well. And so I think you have to be mindful that not everything works. So you have to keep trying until you get the thing that works. Like, this goes for my content creation. This goes for all the businesses I've tried that didn't work. And even at Appsumo, I mean, we tried. I don't know, we've tried so many things over the years on our organic. Which organic. You still have to hire people to make it content. And only recently, I would say in the last four or five months, as our organic YouTube content finally started popping.

Sean Cannell (34:32)

Yeah. So a couple of things I want to talk about is one that. So you've got your channel, you've been on break for a while, but you've got all kinds of bangers, as you said. So there's some tactics you've learned in terms of videos there. I think it's also interesting. It's the unhad conversation. There's a lot of media companies or brands like Appsumo, you know, Kingston Memories, an interesting one. They've been doing it for years. They've hired somebody else to kind of be the face. And there's individuals that are trying to figure out, man, how do you maybe build those teams as well as maybe an entrepreneur that wants to build a team? So we'll get into some of that. Let's start with your channel and some of the hacks and lessons you've learned as it comes to just getting YouTube views. You're big on experimentation. If something isn't working, try something different. You were just mentioning that, and you had mentioned before we hit record that even as you were split, testing, testing titles, book covers, some of that stuff you learned from YouTube. What do you think is, have you learned now achieving incredible YouTube success and having more multiple viral videos about some of the best practices for creating viral videos, getting views. In today's landscape, the one thing that.

Noah Kagan (35:43)

Everyone'S missing is it's all about the content. That's the one thing. So. And what I mean by that is it's going to take you effort to make a video regardless. So we would spend, I don't know, most of the hours not on the editing, not on the title, not on the thumbnail. It's like, what's the actual content that we think our audience, which we call them, it was like all these, like, hungrypreneurs and like, you know, just youngpreneurs, like, what did they really want to see? And we were very strict with, like, okay, if we're only gonna do a few videos a month, which we found to work best for us, like, what's the one we really want to bet everything on? And I Don't think people spend enough time really choosing the topic, like, really choosing it. Right. And if you, if we, you know, we tried a lot of, like, I don't know, well, let's try it. Fine. But then when we were, like, when we put out the ones that we spent a lot of time thinking about, we kind of knew it was going to do well. We weren't surprised. So I think in terms of content creation, it's probably spending more time just upfront thinking about the topics. Think of it like a TV show, right? Every TV show. Saturday Night Live, Jimmy Kimmel, I don't know, I don't like Jimmy. But, like, whatever. These different shows, they have a ton of writers. The Simpsons, all of them coming up with ideas, and then they really choose the best of the best. The best. And I think with content creators, a lot of times they're like, well, I need to make a video this week, so let me just put something out because hopefully it does okay. And I think if you're more intentional with which ones, you'll have a bigger upside on what you make.

Sean Cannell (37:05)

When did you realize your YouTube strategy was working and what signs told you it was time to double down?

Noah Kagan (37:10)

Yeah. So doubling down is something from appsumo days, where not everything works in business. And when it does work, it's like a marriage. Like when you find a good husband or wife, like, marry them, but you go on a bunch of dates first. And so with YouTube, I tried. I think it was around 100 videos. Sharing my finances, sharing marketing, doing some interviews, just doing so many videos. A lot of them I didn't really care for. And then it was finally when we. We had a goal to hit, I think it was a hundred thousand subscribers, and we weren't even close. And we had a month left, so we had to do something kind of 180 of what we normally did. And that's when we were like, well, fuck it, let's just go knock on doors for rich people and see how that does. Like, that felt like we were super. It was super scary to do it, but also exciting. And then when we launched was like instantly like a million view video. And it was one of the first videos where people were kind of like going out in the streets and doing that kind of stuff in the business section. Like, we got inspiration, kind of try to look at other areas for inspiration. And so then, yeah, that once we saw that, it was like, oh, okay, this is working. And most people, what they do is when they find something working, they do other things. And I think we've had success with the content. And with Appsumo, it's like, hey, lifetime deals work well at appsumo. Do a lot of those. And with my YouTube channel doing. Finding out what these rich people do that we see, like, in the cars or in the jets or in the plains, wherever, or in their houses. That works. So if you look at the channel, there's like, I think at least half of our content is asking millionaires what they do. And so I think what we did well is once we found that we didn't just do a bunch of other new stuff, we would slowly test other content to find the next type of content that worked, which was interviewing old people for wisdom. And it turned out. So we tested interviewing. It was interviewing old people for their regrets. And we did a compilation video. And that was the original idea. And as it turned out, the actual interviews themselves versus the compilation video, asking billionaires the regrets is the. Was the thing that, like, went crazy viral. So then we. We really focused in on that. And then we interviewed, you know, Kinko's founder, John Paul DeJoria, Bill Perkins, just all these really interesting guys that have done well professionally.

Sean Cannell (39:25)

You mentioned earlier that some of the people that are doing the interviews of rich people, millionaires, whatever, It's. It's kind of like fake. Like, no one's that pumped. Take me back to that first interview. Did you. Were you just going cold with the camera rolling, or did you like. Okay, yeah, I'm willing. Okay, we're gonna recome to the door. Like, how'd you do it?

Noah Kagan (39:41)

For the knocking on doors videos?

Sean Cannell (39:43)

Yeah.

Noah Kagan (39:43)

Or for interviewing billionaires knocking on doors.

Sean Cannell (39:47)

Is that true? Like, camera rolling, cold knocking on the door, and they finally said yes. So you did it. You did it. And what you're saying is a lot of people who do it, it's like, oh, hey, good to see you guys. But it's like, stage.

Noah Kagan (40:01)

Yeah. Well. And I think now what's interesting is you see a lot more people doing it, or they do the street videos. Like, you go up to people on the street, like, show me your apartment, or, hey, what's your. You look rich. Like, what do you do? And, yeah, I think over time, people copied it because it was popular. And then you have to evolve to think about what is something unique that only you have access to be talking about. Right. Do you have your experience? Do you have connections? Do you have something that, like, no one else can be copying? Because I notice a lot of that in the space. But, yeah, what was fascinating about the knocking on doors videos was that we fe. We featured a lot of the failure, like people saying no, no, no, no. And that actually, it actually turned out to be a good part of the video. Not only when a few people were very generous to open their doors and share with us what they do. It's scary. Like it was. And I was like, why am I doing this? I'm very proud of the content, I will say. But a lot of the content was very like, you know, anxiety driven. You know, like the jet one which went very viral or where I was, I stood outside of a private airport.

Sean Cannell (40:59)

Yes. I love it. Okay. I've heard you say that it is important to have a niche and you might want to have one or two content buckets you're known for. And you should create content around your unique advantage. Is that how you feel still? And what would your debate be with some people who have said, well man, you are the niche. So if you're going to talk about wine and a football team and NFTs and social media and business, what are your thoughts? Because there's a bit. There's always a niche debate. There's always a niche in America. The riches are in that niches debate going on about kind of being variety or what it takes to stand out.

Noah Kagan (41:46)

Yeah. I mean, I talk about Ali Abdaal and Million Dollar Weekend and he's one of my favorite youtubers where this guy started out on his phone talking about. I don't even know what it's called in Britain, but like the medical exam. And it was like how to study for the medical exam. And now he's the number one productivity YouTuber online. Yep. And the challenge is, is that you see someone do it that way. Where he might now talk about his wife and he talks about. I think, I think it's public anyways, personal things of his. I'm like, I'll just do it that way. But it's only because over time he's been building up that core audience to get to that point. Now what I'd recommend for people is try it out, try doing a bunch of shit and see if anyone cares or try to be more specific and see how people respond. I've just found that when you're very specific, like we only. I don't do. I don't care for Mr. B's content. I find it kind of just cheesy. Like it's just like stupid contests that I don't watch. But I like business. I love business. And so all of my content, if you go to olivercon, every single piece of content is addressing someone who wants to start a business. It's not like, and we've considered it like oh, should we be doing like showing rich hotels? Should we do. It's like, well does how does that help my audience? And it doesn't. So I think I've just found being more specific about who we're serving and then starting with very specific content, then eventually you can get to more broad. But I think where there's a mistake is that you see people doing broad and you're like well I'll just copy that. And it's like, well no, they built to that. They didn't start with that.

Sean Cannell (43:11)

I want to talk about team and then kind of media company and the company you founded has a YouTube channel with multiple different faces on it. This idea of different creators and hosts, listeners might even have this opportunity where one of my big messages is I'm like, I actually believe like anybody could be a full time YouTuber. And by that I just mean full time YouTubers work full time in the creator economy. I don't know a lot, I actually don't know a lot of four hour work week content creators. It's hard work. It's more than that. Like it's now you might love it. But my point would be you could edit for a creator. Your YouTube channel managers, there's, you know, there's a lot of people work my, I think all my entire teams, full time YouTubers, we work full time doing YouTube, you know. So of course what a lot of people think is they're going to be on camera. So anyways, it's interesting that we'll talk maybe because there's other appsumo team members. I'm excited to hear about that. But on your million dollar weekend website, it's really cool that you shout out team dork who helped make your content. And there it looks like there's seven people listed. And you've got a YouTube creative director, you've got social content and email writer, maybe that's a little different. But you got a YouTube creative director, YouTube consultant, video editor, podcast, editing abilities. So maybe at least directly for people helping you make YouTube content, maybe tell us a little bit about that. But also, you know, some of the listeners, their problem is not money, their problem is time. And yet when they start thinking like I got my main business I run, but Now I'm starting YouTube so I'm going to edit my own videos or I'm going to, you know, but, but it's also a whole new skill set. So, like, well, I knew how to hire people in my core business, but, like, how do I build this thing? What would be kind of your thoughts for those that want to scale develop a team and how you approach that?

Noah Kagan (45:04)

Yeah, the Appsumo content creation stuff is really fascinating because almost all of it hasn't worked. Like, all of Appsumo's, like, Instagram didn't work. TikTok didn't like Duolingo. Everyone talks about them. We tried all that shit and none of it worked for us. And as it turns out, Mitchell, who's a younger guy that just loves content creation and he worked with me on mine, he started kind of interviewing our partners and some of our customers in a format that worked for my channel. And now the videos are getting 50 to 100,000 per view on the Appsumo channel. And that took us years to finally get to. So you do have to be patient that if it doesn't work immediately, you do have to kind of keep trying until eventually it will work. Now, in terms of the team, I think where people the misconception and problem is you don't start with the team, you build up a team. Right. So I started alone, shirtless, with the phone, no real thumbnail. And then as it worked, I was like, oh, I kind of could use someone helping me with the thumbnail. And that's where Mitchell came in. He actually worked. I met him and he helped me with my channel. And then he ended up actually joining Appsumo. And then same with Jeremy. Jeremy saw my content, hit me up and said, hey, I can help you with Instagram. And he turned in to be the channel director over over a year or two. And so I think it takes time to eventually build up the channel. It really depends on what part of the business you want to be doing. There's someone like Ramit Sethi, a good friend of mine, who likes being on the camera. He wants to be making the content. And now with Appsumo, there's Mitchell, who's the face making content to attract new people to appsumo. So it just depends on each person's preference and how they want to spend time. But I think with the team, the core thing I'd recommend is don't worry, like, I was spending at peak half a million dollars on the team and we were more or less break even on my content. And it was fun. It was fun. Right now I think my team cost, with how much I'm. How little I'm doing is maybe 50,000.

Sean Cannell (46:58)

A year, maybe less Interesting. So if we isolate at the peak, how many people did it take to make these banger Noah Kagan videos?

Noah Kagan (47:09)

Probably more than people would expect. Probably six to seven people. And that's. That's for two videos a month. Right. So we have, like, we had Patty Galloway, who's a YouTube consultant. Jeremy, who's the director, kind of producer, creative director of the channel. We have a video editor. We had a thumbnail person. We had a research assistant, and then we had like a glue person who helped coordinate everything.

Sean Cannell (47:30)

And did you break even because you made 500k in ad revenue?

Noah Kagan (47:35)

Yeah, yeah. If we didn't have AppSumo, would have been hard for me to sustain the channel in the way that we were doing it. Like, the idea that we can promote AppSumo and include AppSumo in the videos and AppSumo would help pay for some of it. Definitely made it easier.

Sean Cannell (47:48)

Got it. So, and for some, that's an interesting perspective that maybe getting into content is a branding awareness passion play. I mean, was it worth it? It was the ROI there.

Noah Kagan (48:04)

What you. What the thought you triggered, Sean, was like, it does. Parts are worth it. Like, there's some interviews or some videos that if I skipped, I, you know, I'd be okay with. But there's some people I've been able to connect with. And I think that's probably the thing that's not talked about as much, like just being in the arena, being in certain categories put you in places where I met Bill Perkins, who wrote Die with Zero. It's one of my favorite books. It's down here on the ground. Or Tim Ferriss. You know, I've been creating content. That's how I met tim. Where in 2007, he had a book coming out called Four Hour Workweek. And I was like, hey, I got a blog. Do you want me to blog about it? And, you know, 20 years later, we're still. We're still friends. And so I think that's part of the content thing. That's not as monetized. That's done well.

Sean Cannell (48:46)

So was it worth it?

Noah Kagan (48:49)

Yeah, yeah, it was worth it. I'm really. I'm proud of it. And we talked about this earlier, before it came on the air. I do think it's. I'm. It's worth it from the sense. I'm very proud of what I made. I'm really proud of what we made. Like, I look at these videos and I don't know how I, like, I went on the streets of Monaco. I Went on the streets of Switzerland, Like, I asked first class passengers what they did. I got to interview my, you know, some of these, these idols, truly idols of our societies. And yeah, it was definitely worth doing that. Now I'm in a season where I'm trying to evaluate, like, how do I balance prioritizing my family and what I really want to do with also, you know, going into content creation that I actually really want to do, and I'll pay to even be doing it. And I think a lot of that will be more around interviewing, you know, some of these people, women and men that have created companies that I, that I'm curious about.

Sean Cannell (49:36)

All right, as we land the plane, a few more questions here. I do just want to get maybe your distinctive tips. I love how raw you were about, like, hey, we tried a lot of content for our business and it didn't work. And even something that worked for Duolingo didn't work for us.

Noah Kagan (49:55)

Us.

Sean Cannell (49:55)

We're trying to find our thing, but now we're kind of getting into the, the, the flow of things. In fact, if I expand this conversation out, I mean, it's, it's interesting. You're. You're in a. You got a software company. Appsumo has got 115,000 subscribers now for that YouTube channel. You eventually found the individual Mitchell, right. Who's passionate, enjoys doing it. Now things are going to the next level. Took a long time to figure that out. There's all, there's this whole thing of, you know, YouTube's the new frontier. People are building media companies. I'm trying to. It's been organic and natural. It wasn't necessarily what I thought at the beginning, but I'm thinking about succession. I'm thinking about. I'm more into the leadership and team of things. I think that the greatest leaders build platforms for others. They want to share the mic. Just different things. I kind of enjoy the leadership side even more than just the content creation side, but I enjoy that as well. So we've been trying to build a media company. You know, a year or two ago, I was looking around and I was looking at like, valuetainment. Patrick bet David and I was like, you know, he had a couple characters over there. I was like, look, that's going great. He's building all his talent. I was looking at, like, Daily Wire. I was like, look at how happy they all are. Ben and Candace are getting along. That looks great. You know, I looked at like, Dave Ramsey and I was like, man, he's got all these, you know, different Talent that's on his team and stuff. And then, you know, people are people. And, you know, this guy Chris that was working over there, you know, has an affair with one or two people or something at the company, and that's not good. So. And there's a couple other, you know, talent just comes and goes.

Noah Kagan (51:30)

So.

Sean Cannell (51:30)

There was an era where, though, I was like, this is all gonna just be great. And then. And then g, you know, 12 to 24 months went by and the evolution, which I suppose it's not. New anchors have come and gone from TV shows. Things have happened, and that's going to be life. That's real business. But the media company thing is interesting. There's been in the creator economy, partnerships where people maybe just started the partnership out of passion. And then a few years go by and stuff gets interesting. And where does the channel go next? Is it built on a personal brand or on a face? I kind of actually just expanded this out. So I'm curious from your perspective, you've got the Appsumo experience. You're aware of the greater landscape. You know, I don't know, lessons, tips, thoughts on those that are, you know, building media companies and trying to think about what it might look like to have, if you will, multiple faces, especially on a channel like Appsumo, which is not a personal brand. It is a media brand. And. Yeah.

Noah Kagan (52:26)

What are your thoughts? Everyone else's business sucks more than you think. Let's start there. I think we look at. Oh, look at Noah. You know, he's. He's doing great. Or her Mosey or Cody, or any of these things, or. I've seen your stuff for years and I've always been impressed with what you've done, but who knows what the fuck's going on in everyone's house. Yeah, we always. We see the outside of the house, we're like, oh, it looks great. It's like, dude, their shit sucks too. So find the suck. Find the suck that you're okay with. Yeah, I think there's a lot of different. There's so many ways to make money. I think find the area that you're really happy with and that you can do. You know, in terms of content stuff, like we do these product videos. It doesn't do anything for our channel, and somehow we keep doing it, which I think is stupid. I don't even think our customers really like watching them, but we're putting out. Mitchell's been doing this content where today he interviewed Marshall haas, who sold somewhere.com and these videos. It's like they're going to do 10 to 100,000 view videos. And so he found the thing. And I think what most people don't do is they don't take enough time to find the thing. And then when they find the thing. Now look at Mitchell's videos. Like every one of the videos is the same exact thing. Right? It's like agency or software creator for solopreneurs. And each of these videos is just crushing. I would also argue that Mitchell for our channel. Mitchell loves this. This is Mitchell's. Like, Mitchell would pay us to do this stuff. And it took time. I mean, we've been working with Mitchell. I've been working with him seven years to get to this point. And I think we kind of want it to be immediate and we want it right away, which that's also okay too. Now, in terms of these other companies, like media companies, I think the ones I'm interested in, there's a guy in LA who's been buying random newspapers and magazine companies. You know this guy?

Sean Cannell (54:04)

No, it sounds cool.

Noah Kagan (54:05)

He's buying all these ones that people think are dead.

Sean Cannell (54:08)

Variety, Hollywood Porter. Rolling Stone. Jay Penske.

Noah Kagan (54:11)

Jay Penske. So he's like a younger guy. I think he's in his 40s. And he bought all these random newspaper magazine sites that were kind of older or decaying. And as it kind of put them all together to a media company that's doing really well. He's not very public. I don't. I've kind of stumbled across him, I think, in a Wall Street Journal magazine or article. And I read dirt.com every, every Saturday. It's like my treat to read real estate news. I like, I love, love seeing, like, houses with, like bowling alleys and stupid shit in it. I find it inspiring. And so he owns dirt.com and Rob Report. Now, from the perspective of a media company, I think what it comes back to is can you do something that unique that you can either have a monopoly in or have an advantage in? And does seem like he's kind of angled around, like older magazine websites that people seem to have forgotten and seems like he's done a pretty good job doing this. I think that that's kind of how it goes for all of content. Like, what's your angle? And then find some lane that people seem to respond to and you make money in and, you know, go as hard as you can on that. I think people go way too soft. Most people are probably too weak or not serious enough about it. Like, I think part of our success at app soon was we found the software deal thing works. In 15 years, we're still doing software deals and I think we've gone pretty damn hard on it. Same with this YouTube stuff with Mitchell and with me. With Mitchell, he found these videos are working and so it's all right. We know that videos interviewing these people work. Like, how do we 10x the amount of content we're making there? And I think most people kind of either do other things, they get bored or they don't really double down on it.

Sean Cannell (55:39)

You've shared a lot of incredible advice today and been very generous with your time. I do want to hear a little bit about the book. I do want to know on the other two to three books that have fundamentally changed how you think about business as we land the plane in just a second. But I do want you to give some shout outs. And I have one Easter egg question. Unless I got somehow warped out of what time I'm in. I think it's 2025 at the time we're recording this, but on your website. I just love the fact that your copyright was 2028.

Noah Kagan (56:11)

And yeah, I try to be ahead of time.

Sean Cannell (56:14)

I know what that means.

Noah Kagan (56:16)

I didn't know if it was being.

Sean Cannell (56:17)

Funny or if there's like a powerful principle behind visioneering the future or something.

Noah Kagan (56:27)

Nah, I was just fucking around. I mean, I think in business it should be fun, man. Like, otherwise, go get a day job with someone you hate. I always felt like it was more risky to have a job doing what I didn't want to do with someone I didn't like than actually starting your own business, which almost costs nothing these days, which is amazing. And you can really, you know, live in however you'd like to live. So, yeah, with Noah Kagan.com, there's like other. There's a few other Easter eggs, like, like a hot sauce thing if you could find it. But yeah, I was just kind of having fun with these different things.

Sean Cannell (57:00)

Sometimes I forget to update copyrights. I'll like go, I'll see people's websites 1 or 2 years old or something, you know, because he's got to update at the bottom of the website. So I was like, maybe he's just getting ahead.

Noah Kagan (57:09)

Like, you know, you know what it is. When I worked with Zuckerberg, he had really good attention to detail that always. That's why I checked copyright dates. I check like, you know, how's the grammar on websites or people slipping on it. I like the attention to detail. I think he really Inspired me around that. Now, in terms of books, I basically bought all of my favorite business books. So I'm happy to share a few of the ones that I think everyone needs to buy. I do think Million Dollar Weekend, if you're getting started or you want some inspiration, I'm proud of. I'm very proud of the work. I think it's an amazing story and a good read. I hired Tal Raz, who's one of the best business writers, to help me put it together. The ultimate sales machine is a banger. Donald Miller's Million Miles in a Thousand Years is a banger. This one is if you have a business, if you're making like a million dollars or more. I think Reed Hastings. No Rules. Rules by Reed Hastings is a fucking mega banger. Other mega bangers is Amp it up by Frank Slootman. That's a, that's a mega banger. Maverick by Ricardo Semler. I'm just looking at the ones I have down here. So I try to find the. I think to get advantages. I guess my philosophy is like, if you're reading what others are reading, you're not going to get ahead because everyone else is reading it. So I'm trying to find some of the people or that are not talked about as much.

Sean Cannell (58:23)

That's a good word. A Million Miles in a thousand Years. Donald Miller, Million Dollar Weekend. Noah Kagan, Ultimate Sales Machine. No rules. Rules. Amp it up. Maverick. There's. There's six books to read in the next six weeks.

Noah Kagan (58:39)

Just do one every other month. You're good for the year. I think the thing I've thought with books is that we brag about how many we've read or that we've read them, but no one's bragging about that they've done implementation from it.

Sean Cannell (58:50)

Yeah. How many they've applied.

Noah Kagan (58:52)

Yeah, it's like, hey, I read one book this year and my business doubled. It's like, stop reading. Just go watch Netflix at night. You know, I think, I think we kind of. We overemphasize the number of the books, not the impact of the books.

Sean Cannell (59:04)

Instead of reading 52 books or even 12, read one, master it, apply it, and actually create your million dollar weekend. And then build that seven figure business.

Noah Kagan (59:12)

This one's a banger. It's got a lot like Ultimate Sales Machine is similar to this guy, Keith Cunningham Road Less stupid. It's basically one of these, like, there's like so much stuff in it. You're gonna get. These are more. If you already have a business, you're gonna get at least one thing.

Sean Cannell (59:25)

Yeah.

Noah Kagan (59:25)

Road less stupid. That's a really good one.

Sean Cannell (59:27)

Yeah. I'm in that one as well. All kinds of good questions to help you think. Broke my whole brain about, like, you're not even actually solving problems. You're just, like, solving the fruit, not the root. And you're not even actually getting to the heart of issues. This would actually be the real problem. You have, like, the real constraint. That's good stuff. Well, I mean, seven books. We'll make sure they're all linked up in the show notes. But then ultimately, you heard it here from Noah Kagan. The quote was actually stopped reading. Watch Netflix instead. So, I mean, that's kind of a cool.

Noah Kagan (59:57)

I mean, I truly think that if you can suffer long enough, you're going to get success.

Sean Cannell (60:05)

Yeah.

Noah Kagan (60:06)

And if you don't and you're either just be happy with where you're at and that's okay too. But I do find that I really wanted a certain lifestyle, I wanted a certain type of job, and I was willing to suffer in my own way for a long time to be able to get that.

Sean Cannell (60:20)

Noah Kagan, I'm really grateful for you. Glad we finally got to connect like this. And I do want you to shout it out. People want to follow you like anything else so they can check you out.

Noah Kagan (60:28)

Weirdly, I'm actually trying to get less. No, I don't. I don't know why I agreed to. I think we talked about doing this a long time ago, so I'm trying to get less known. Don't look for me. Look for yourself. It's for reals. Because it's like, I realized, like, I don't. If I get more attention. It's actually. It's kind of a negative lately. Okay. It's a little bit more. It's been a little more problematic where, like, it puts my family at risk for what reward? So don't look for me. Look for Sean. Look for yourself. Send me your stuff.

Sean Cannell (60:53)

Yeah. Subscribe to the fake media podcast. Yes. Go buy Noah's book, but do not follow him. And then don't read it. Watch Netflix instead.

Noah Kagan (61:04)

Put the book in ChatGPT. Find the big three things and then just go. Or Google Notebook LLM and then do those from the book. But I think more people find themselves, man. That's. That's what we're doing on this planet. Just find the thing you want to do.

Sean Cannell (61:16)

Find yourself. Hey, no, I appreciate you think media podcast, like, rate, subscribe, share, review, wherever you watch or listen. And my name is Sean Cannell. Your guide to building a profitable YouTube channel. Check you in the next one.